NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/06/26/sex.change.inmate.ap/index.html

The question at the center of the case: Should a murderer serving life in prison get a sex-change operation at taxpayer expense?

The case of Michelle -- formerly Robert -- Kosilek is being closely watched across the country by advocates for other inmates who want to undergo a sex change. Transgender inmates in other states have sued prison officials, and not one has succeeded in persuading a judge to order a sex-change operation.

The Massachusetts Correction Department is vigorously fighting Kosilek's request for surgery, saying it would create a security nightmare and make Kosilek a target for sexual assault.

I'm not going to state my opinion on this right away, partially because I'm not completely certain what my opinion on this is and partially because I think there is often more interesting discussion if the OP isn't a strident opinionated post.

So, do you think the state should pay for a sex re-assignment surgery as part of the medical costs for a transsexual inmate?

(The poll is multiple choice)

Hell no, it's not a medical procedure needed to keep people alive, it's not an emergency type medical procedure, it's purely cosmetic, which means that the dudes can pay for it themselves.

Hell no, it's not a medical procedure needed to keep people alive, it's not an emergency type medical procedure, it's purely cosmetic, which means that the dudes can pay for it themselves.

Quite. He can learn to take it like a man.

Also...
"The duty belongs to the prison to figure out how to fulfill its constitutional obligations to both provide adequate medical care and provide a fundamental security for all inmates," said Cole Thaler, an attorney with Lambda Legal, a gay- and transgender-rights group.
I havent read the constitution in a while, but I dont immidiatly recall anything about providing healthcare for inmates. I'm sure theres regulations regarding that, yes, but somehow I doubt its in the constitution >_>

Hell no, it's not a medical procedure needed to keep people alive, it's not an emergency type medical procedure, it's purely cosmetic, which means that the dudes can pay for it themselves.

Is it really "purely cosmetic"? How would you feel if you felt you were born in the wrong body? Can any of us who haven't been through it really understand that feeling?

And do you think only life-saving treatments should be paid for? Should inmates, for instance, not be able to receive psychological treatment?

I havent read the constitution in a while, but I dont immidiatly recall anything about providing healthcare for inmates. I'm sure theres regulations regarding that, yes, but somehow I doubt its in the constitution >_>

I'm fairly certain that not providing at least basic healthcare for inmates would fall under "cruel and unusual".

I agree with wilgrove. Plus, we're talking about a murderer with a life sentence, who should already have some of a citizen's basic rights revoked because of the harm to other individuals in society. Why should he have the right to have the state pay for the surgery?

Is it really "purely cosmetic"? How would you feel if you felt you were born in the wrong body? Can any of us who haven't been through it really understand that feeling?

And do you think only life-saving treatments should be paid for? Should inmates, for instance, not be able to receive psychological treatment?

Because transsexuals operations are purely cosmetic, men who change into women don't get to produce babies and have periods, their vagina's and boobs are purely cosmetic, and since they won't die if they don't get the treatment, then it's not required to keep the person alive. Thereforth, the person should pay for the operation themselves.

If they need the treatment to stay alive, or to keep them alive, then yes.

No. Only if he pays for it himself.

The government isn't even offering adequate mental health services for American inmates, of whom a very large percentage suffer from mental illnesses. Get on that before offering to pay for free sex changes.

Because transsexuals operations are purely cosmetic, men who change into women don't get to produce babies and have periods, their vagina's and boobs are purely cosmetic, and since they won't die if they don't get the treatment, then it's not required to keep the person alive. Thereforth, the person should pay for the operation themselves.

If they need the treatment to stay alive, or to keep them alive, then yes.

So prisons shouldn't provide healthcare to prisoners until it's life threatening?

Why is Robert a "She"?

I think if an inmate wishes to have a sex change they should be allowed to do so however there would need to be some measures put in place so it doesn't come under some sick abuse...

as for whether the state pays for it, I say yes its an odd situation but if the inmate can't afford the treatment (which she presumably won't) it should be payed for by the state just because its kind of sick if it doesn't happen

Because transsexuals operations are purely cosmetic, men who change into women don't get to produce babies and have periods, their vagina's and boobs are purely cosmetic, and since they won't die if they don't get the treatment, then it's not required to keep the person alive.

Many transsexuals who are unable to get this treatment fall into very deep depression and end up committing suicide. This particular inmate has apparently already tried it more than once.

Thereforth, the person should pay for the operation themselves.

Of course, with an inmate (unless she was damn rich to begin with), this pretty much means they cannot get it.

So prisons shouldn't provide healthcare to prisoners until it's life threatening?

and if it's required to keep them alive, like medicines, medical procedure etc.

Why is Robert a "She"?

Because there is no Robert. We're talking about Michelle.


and if it's required to keep them alive, like medicines, medical procedure etc.

What about mental health care?

Why is Robert a "She"?

there are various theory's batted about and odds are there is no one reason but Robert is a she because she feels she is as such

its kind of a respect and anti-sex rules thing though technically Robert is a male he feels in his mind he is a she and really thats fairly important

and if it's required to keep them alive, like medicines, medical procedure etc.

yeah lets get there tax thieving wheel chairs!

Many transsexuals who are unable to get this treatment fall into very deep depression and end up committing suicide. This particular inmate has apparently already tried it more than once.

Then the prison has an obligation to keep a watch on the inmate just to make sure that they do not commit suicide, but the transsexual operation is still cosmetic, and it's still not needed to keep a person alive. Hell, I didn't have my ear and jaw operation until I was 16 and 20, and I did fall into depression myself because of the way I looked, but both series of operation was not needed to keep me alive, I just had them to look more normal, that's it.

Of course, with an inmate (unless she was damn rich to begin with), this pretty much means they cannot get it.

Then the prisoner is S.O.L. unless (s)he can get a family member to pay for it.

and if it's required to keep them alive, like medicines, medical procedure etc.

What Dem said, what about psychological and psychiatric healthcare?

What about mental health care?

If they're suicidal or some such, yeah, it could be required to keep them alive. Then again there's probably, hmm, how shall we say, more efficient ways of dealing with said tendencies. At least for the time being, in prison and all.

yeah lets get there tax thieving wheel chairs!

That would fall under required medical procedure.

What Dem said, what about psychological and psychiatric healthcare?

I already answered that, go back to page one.

I'm fairly certain that not providing at least basic healthcare for inmates would fall under "cruel and unusual".

This isn't basic healthcare by any stretch of the imagination.

I vote nein, he's just going to have to life his life out as a man, sadly.

As long as this isn't some convoluted plan to gain early release from prison - which of course it is - I really don't care what he/she does in the way of genital removing.

I'm not convinced by the cost argument.

If they're suicidal or some such, yeah, it could be required to keep them alive.

Why should a prisoner get an operation paid for by the state that a normal citizen could not? Suicide watch, treatment for depression possibly as part of keeping the prisoner alive, even allowing the operation if the prisoner could pay for it I wouldn't mind. But state-funded trans-gender surgery seems to be a bit much for a person serving life for murder when a law-abiding citizen could not get the same treatment paid for by the state for the same reasons.

This isn't basic healthcare by any stretch of the imagination.

Of course not. But the post I was responding to said that he saw no requirement in the Constitution that any healthcare be provided.

I vote nein, he's just going to have to life his life out as a man, sadly.

She's not really going to live her life as a man no matter what genitalia she has. She is already on hormone treatments and has had laser hair removal to make her more "feminine".

One thing I find interesting is that one of their big reasons for saying no is that they think it would make her a target for sexual assault within the prison. I find it odd that they don't think a person who self-identifies (and acts) as a woman isn't already such a target in a men's prison.

Then the prison has an obligation to keep a watch on the inmate just to make sure that they do not commit suicide

then its going to cost much more and end up as aggro for everyone tell me: when you break your leg do you just buy pain killers?

Hell, I didn't have my ear and jaw operation until I was 16 and 20, and I did fall into depression myself

so what your saying is because you managed to do it everyone else can too?

That would fall under required medical procedure.

why when they can still crawl?

I don't see why not, but I have a perspective from a country where sex reassignment surgery is covered by public health insurance, have had the fortune to assist at three surgeries and have met several of the people who benefited and who were cured of their gender dysphoria (which can be a life-threatening, and most certainly is a debilitating disorder), so of course I cannot be so ignorant as to see the procedure as "purely cosmetic" or other such nonsense.

I'm not convinced by the cost argument.

Then you just signed yourself up to pay for every guy or girl inmate wanting one of these operations!

Good job, taking one for the greater good!

I don't see why we're all concerned about depression and whatnot, if you believe they should get treatment because of the chance of depression, I want get thrown in the slammer so I can start whining for a blue-ray player and a HDTV, then 'go into a depression' until my demands are meet.

so what your saying is because you managed to do it everyone else can too?

It's kindof a counterexample to "They'll all commit suicide!!!"

Why should a prisoner get an operation paid for by the state that a normal citizen could not? Suicide watch, treatment for depression possibly as part of keeping the prisoner alive, even allowing the operation if the prisoner could pay for it I wouldn't mind. But state-funded trans-gender surgery seems to be a bit much for a person serving life for murder when a law-abiding citizen could not get the same treatment paid for by the state for the same reasons.

Is this an argument for denying the treatment or for making sex reassignment surgery something that can be funded by insurance/Medicare for all citizens who need it?

Why should a prisoner get an operation paid for by the state that a normal citizen could not? Suicide watch, treatment for depression possibly as part of keeping the prisoner alive, even allowing the operation if the prisoner could pay for it I wouldn't mind. But state-funded trans-gender surgery seems to be a bit much for a person serving life for murder when a law-abiding citizen could not get the same treatment paid for by the state for the same reasons.

Well, considering he's already sitting there in a cell, it wouldn't be too hard to watch 'em, surely?

then its going to cost much more and end up as aggro for everyone tell me: when you break your leg do you just buy pain killers?

First off, you are confusing the two. If I break my legs, yea I'm going to the doctors, because I would like to walk again and if left untreated it can paraylize my legs making things worse.

When it comes to transsexual surgeries it's not life threatening, it's not required to keep a person alive, and it doesn't give the person baby making skills, it is cosmetic surgery and that's it. It's the same thing as a breast enhancement/reduction surgery. Would it be nice to have, yes. Is it required, no.

so what your saying is because you managed to do it everyone else can too?

No I'm saying that cosmetic surgery are not needed to keep a person alive, and it isn't required treatment to keep them healthy, thus the state should not pay for it.

why when they can still crawl?

Your quote, not mine, I'm in favor of giving people wheelchairs if they need it, but I guess you feel differently. Like I said, it falls under required medical procedure/equipment.

Why should a prisoner get an operation paid for by the state that a normal citizen could not?

the real question is why this isn't covered by the state to begin with but lets not get into the backwardness of the world when the key difference is when your outside of prison you have a job and thus income to pay for the surgery

oddly this is reminding me of medieval prisons where inmates where charged rent so affectively they could never leave, how fitting ;)

I find it odd that they don't think a person who self-identifies (and acts) as a woman isn't already such a target in a men's prison.

fossils will pull at any straws when it comes to avoiding progressive answers

Honestly, if they've murdered someone, they're in there their whole lives, so, if by chance, a jail guard happens to not be looking when Robert gets some razorblades...

Talk about cost effective, not only do you eliminate the whole state paying element, but you actually start 'making' the state money by having one less prisoner. All in all, a good fix.

Then you just signed yourself up to pay for every guy or girl inmate wanting one of these operations!

Good job, taking one for the greater good!

I don't see why we're all concerned about depression and whatnot, if you believe they should get treatment because of the chance of depression, I want get thrown in the slammer so I can start whining for a blue-ray player and a HDTV, then 'go into a depression' until my demands are meet.

I don't imagine that there will be a flood of requests for this sort of thing somehow. Anyway, I the cost seems relatively minor ($20,000) when compared to the total cost of a life sentence and I am sure there are many other bigger sources of waste in the current system.

He should have considered this before he murdered someone.

No dice, scumbag can rot.

I'm fairly certain that not providing at least basic healthcare for inmates would fall under "cruel and unusual".

Ahhh, thats what I get for not thinking ;)

I voted no, and I voted to wonder why we're referring to ths man as a "she".

A few people have already mentioned things I've been thinking about, so this post will be a summary as well.

Firstly, while it's true that the correctional system is obligated to provide health care under the auspices of the cruel and unusual punishment clause, it's not a free-for-all. The available healthcare for inmates in a prison is limited to that which is absolutely necessary. A sex change, no matter how badly wanted, is not absolutely necessary.

As has been mentioned before, a sex change is purely cosmetic. Cosmetic surgery, no matter how badly wanted, isn't covered in the prison system.

Much has been made of the psychological issues. Suicidal dangers and such. My friends, this guy is in PRISON. That's reason enough to want to commit suicide. Shall we start letting inmates who become suicidal out of prison on that basis alone? No. What we do is we put them on suicide watch and provide some level of counseling or medication to help get them through it.

And let's not forget... this man is in prison for LIFE. He's never going to have a normal life in either case. What are we really doing here? What's next? Letting inmates adopt children?

So, do you think the state should pay for a sex re-assignment surgery as part of the medical costs for a transsexual inmate?

No. Why should they? Do prisoners get free nosejobs, cosmetic hair implants, breast enlargement too? No? Well then.

Also, I find it disappointing that he was Robert and now is Michelle. Why not Roberta?

I don't imagine that there will be a flood of requests for this sort of thing somehow. Anyway, I the cost seems relatively minor ($20,000) when compared to the total cost of a life sentence and I am sure there are many other bigger sources of waste in the current system.

Not to mention the cost of litigating it (which has already superseded the cost of the surgery itself more than twice over).

I voted no, and I voted to wonder why we're referring to ths man as a "she".

The same reason I would refer to anyone who self-identified as female as "she" (and anyone who self-identified as male as "he").

no.

it should not be allowed even if she pays for it herself.

you cant have a woman in a man's prison and she shouldnt be able to do something medical that gets her moved to a nicer prison.

No. Why should they? Do prisoners get free nosejobs, cosmetic hair implants, breast enlargement too? No? Well then.

Are these things truly the same?

Also, I find it disappointing that he was Robert and now is Michelle. Why not Roberta?

Maybe she never liked the name Robert to begin with. Maybe it was to make a clean break from her past gender?

no.

it should not be allowed even if she pays for it herself.

you cant have a woman in a man's prison and she shouldnt be able to do something medical that gets her moved to a nicer prison.

If women's prisons are truly "nicer", isn't that a problem in and of itself?

In fact, one could argue that she is basically already a woman in a man's prison and should probably already be in a woman's prison.

It's kindof a counterexample to "They'll all commit suicide!!!"

sounds like an excuse to beat your kids if you managed to live through being beaten as a child, because hell you managed it

Well, considering he's already sitting there in a cell, it wouldn't be too hard to watch 'em, surely?

far too costly, its much cheaper to keep the prisoners reasonably happy

First off, you are confusing the two. If I break my legs, yea I'm going to the doctors, because I would like to walk again and if left untreated it can paraylize my legs making things worse.

you miss the point treating the source is always more costly then just treating the symptoms

When it comes to transsexual surgeries it's not life threatening

yes being suicidal isn't life threatening at all!

No I'm saying that cosmetic surgery are not needed to keep a person alive, and it isn't required treatment to keep them healthy, thus the state should not pay for it.

mental health is important

Your quote, not mine, I'm in favor of giving people wheelchairs if they need it, but I guess you feel differently. Like I said, it falls under required medical procedure/equipment.

so your for helping disabled people live about there lives but oh no not transsexuals because there problem happens to be mental and thus they must be weak!

SNIP

thank you for labeling yourself barbaric and showing that people still find it acceptable to treat prisoners as non-human

"a sex change is purely cosmetic. "

What do you mean by cosmetic. If what is is to "be a woman" is based on the ability to have children..then a lot woman are out of luck and there private parts are purely cosmetic right?

you cant have a woman in a man's prison and she shouldnt be able to do something medical that gets her moved to a nicer prison.

I don't think we should have single sex prisons.

I don't imagine that there will be a flood of requests for this sort of thing somehow. Anyway, I the cost seems relatively minor ($20,000) when compared to the total cost of a life sentence and I am sure there are many other bigger sources of waste in the current system.

How about you take a nice quote for the day-

"We must be the change we're looking for in the world"
-Ghandi

Basically, we shouldn't disregard little stuff just because it is not big.

He should have considered this before he murdered someone.

No dice, scumbag can rot.

I agree, that is basically my arguement in a nutshell.

I don't think we should have single sex prisons.

Why not?

Why not?

Because it would put an end to people moaning about stuff like this.

Also, it's the state discriminating on basis of gender, which I am told is very very wrong.

Because it would put an end to people moaning about stuff like this.

Also, it's the state discriminating on basis of gender, which I am told is very very wrong.

Discrimination to maintain the safety of women.

sounds like an excuse to beat your kids if you managed to live through being beaten as a child, because hell you managed it

Yes, not being able to get the state to fund your cosmetic surgery is the same as being abused by a drunken dad. :rolleyes: I really should stop right here, since you're already willing to compare to not having cosmetic surgery to child abuse, but what the hell.

far too costly, its much cheaper to keep the prisoners reasonably happy

They're in PRISON, how the hell can you EVER be happy in prison?!

you miss the point treating the source is always more costly then just treating the symptoms

If the person is depressed because (s)he can't have the cosmetic surgery, then something tells me that the problem is deeper than just not being able to have a vagina/penis.

yes being suicide isn't life threatening at all!

Once again, if the person is suicidal over this (and not the fact that they're in a tiny cell for the rest of their life) then really there must be a deeper problem than not being able to have a vagina/penis. If a prisoner is truly suicidal, put them on suicide watch, get them counseling and treatment.

mental health is important

Agreed but cosmetic surgery doesn't treat the mental problem. The only way you're going to treat a mental problem is with a psychiatrist not a plastic surgeon.

so your for helping disabled people live about there lives but oh no not transsexuals because there problem happens to be mental and thus they must be weak!


Ok, I'm going to say this one more time, and hopefully it'll sink in.

Wheelchairs, crutch, walkers, any medical equipment that the prisoner requires = is valid, because it keeps a person alive and healthy and should be paid for by the state.

Cosmetic surgery = not valid, it's not required to keep a person alive and healthy, thus should not be paid for by the state.

thank you for labeling yourself barbaric and showing that people still find it acceptable to treat prisoners as non-human

Your welcome, when you take a life, that forefiets, obviously, any pretensions that they themselves are human.

Is this an argument for denying the treatment or for making sex reassignment surgery something that can be funded by insurance/Medicare for all citizens who need it?

The best case would be making state-funded medical procedure equal for citizens regardless of legal status, including physical operations necessary for mental health, but that is another discussion, I think.

My issue here is that, in a system in which the average law-abiding citizen does not receive such treatment from the state, why would a prisoner deserve the same treatment? A prisoner is unable to make money or leave the prison system, and they do not lose their physical and mental needs once they enter prison, but giving prisoners better state-funded health-care than other citizens seems to be counter-intuitive to the purpose of the prison system, to punish people that break laws by depriving them of many societal benefits.

Discrimination to maintain the safety of women.

Are you saying the government is not capable of maintaining safety and order in its own prisons?? I am shocked, shocked I tell you.

Anyway it's not a valid excuse. What the government should do is make the prisons safe, not discriminate on the basis of gender.

Because it would put an end to people moaning about stuff like this.

Also, it's the state discriminating on basis of gender, which I am told is very very wrong.

it would cause stupid amounts of hassle and end up with some prisoners getting pregnant which in a prison environment isn't ideal

sounds like an excuse to beat your kids if you managed to live through being beaten as a child, because hell you managed it

Does it? If the statement had been made "All children who are beaten die", then your analogy would make something resembling sense.


far too costly, its much cheaper to keep the prisoners reasonably happy

I was indirectly pointing out how odd it is to go "how come prisoners get more than us?!"

it would cause stupid amounts of hassle and end up with some prisoners getting pregnant which in a prison environment isn't ideal

That's what they used to say about schools too.

Are you saying the government is not capable of maintaining safety and order in its own prisons?? I am shocked, shocked I tell you.

Anyway it's not a valid excuse. What the government should do is make the prisons safe, not discriminate on the basis of gender.

So what you're saying is that they should remove the safer system currently used and make it harder to maintain the safety of all prisoners?

That's what they used to say about schools too.

Yes because schools are full of potentially violent criminals :rolleyes:

Also, it's the state discriminating on basis of gender, which I am told is very very wrong.

It has generally been held that the state can discriminate based on gender, as long as there is some sort of compelling interest in doing so. (Hence the reason that single sex bathrooms, etc. are A-ok).

If the person is depressed because (s)he can't have the cosmetic surgery, then something tells me that the problem is deeper than just not being able to have a vagina/penis.

The person isn't depressed because she cannot have cosmetic surgery. She is depressed because she has the wrong body.

Once again, if the person is suicidal over this (and not the fact that they're in a tiny cell for the rest of their life) then really there must be a deeper problem than not being able to have a vagina/penis. If a prisoner is truly suicidal, put them on suicide watch, get them counseling and treatment.

That problem is known as gender dysphoria (IIRC). Treatment generally includes therapy (and she is already receiving it). It also often includes hormone treatments (which she is receiving). If these are not enough, the next treatment is surgery.

Agreed but cosmetic surgery doesn't treat the mental problem. The only way you're going to treat a mental problem is with a psychiatrist not a plastic surgeon.

The mental problem is caused by the disparity in gender and biological sex. A psychiatrist can help, but can never get rid of that problem. The only way to do so is to get rid of the disparity, by making the body match the gender.

It would appear that you have a very limited understanding of transsexuality.

If women's prisons are truly "nicer", isn't that a problem in and of itself?

In fact, one could argue that she is basically already a woman in a man's prison and should probably already be in a woman's prison.

women's prisoners are nicer not because they have nicer facilities but because they are full of women instead of men.

and no, she shouldnt be in a women's prison as long as she is physically a man.

its a bad situation for her but life in prison sucks.

I don't think we should have single sex prisons.

well when you fulfill your quest for co-ed prisons, my point will be moot and she should be able to get a sex change if she can pay for it.

"Because transsexuals operations are purely cosmetic, men who change into women don't get to produce babies and have periods, their vagina's and boobs are purely cosmetic"


So basically women are baby machines. What about a woman who is infertile? Is her vagina "cosmetic"?

women's prisoners are nicer not because they have nicer facilities but because they are full of women instead of men.

...... I see. So we can keep a woman in a man's prison as long as she has a penis because women are nicer. Interesting.

and no, she shouldnt be in a women's prison as long as she is physically a man.

Why?

And, to extend the question: What bathroom should a pre-op MtF transsexual use? Should she be told that she cannot have surgery because it would allow her to use nicer bathrooms?

its a bad situation for her but life in prison sucks.

Indeed. Apparently more for some people than others.

As it's not an urgent procedure, and as (according to the article) hormone treatments are helping her depression, I don't see why she shouldn't wait until she's released from prison to have the surgery.

As to "who pays", the answer should be the same as for anybody else; if the state doesn't pay for anybody else's sex change, it shouldn't pay for hers because she's (been) a prisoner. If it does, it should, because by then she's been released and (should be) just another normal person.

As to whether the surgery should be paid for by the state, I'm undecided; ideally yeah, every surgery and treatment and so forth anybody wants would be, but in a reality of finite resources it probably comes down to "could the money be spent elsewhere to greater total benefit?". And, obviously, I have no idea what the answer to that question is.

I'm not sure if the state should pay for it. My initial thought is no because I don't think it is absolutely necessary for the well being of the prisoner and therefore my taxes should not go to it. Although I know that some who feel that they are in the wrong body my become horribly depressed. I think they should be provided mental health care and medication for depression if needed.

I would like to clarify that I don't have a problem with the person getting the surgery, I just have a problem with how it's being funded. If (s)he can get some help from family and friends, great, but other than that, no dice.

snippage of point 1

just pointing out the idiocy of using your own story

They're in PRISON, how the hell can you EVER be happy in prison?!

which is why I said reasonably happy, prisons already do all they can to keep the prisoners as happy as possible, it saves money and cuts rioting making everybody happier really its the old carrot vs stick battle

If the person is depressed because (s)he can't have the cosmetic surgery, then something tells me that the problem is deeper than just not being able to have a vagina/penis.

its a disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria) (though calling it a disorder is harsh) if you happen to have some magic pills to make people fit into social lines then be my guest


Agreed but cosmetic surgery doesn't treat the mental problem. The only way you're going to treat a mental problem is with a psychiatrist not a plastic surgeon.

your thoughts on psychiatry worry me, tell me can we also persuade homosexuals to be sane again or does it just work with those we find acceptable to think of as wrong

Cosmetic surgery = not valid, it's not required to keep a person alive and healthy, thus should not be paid for by the state.

you must of missed the part on how he attempted suicide and you must of fallen asleep when your class watched that movie on mental health, strange how you could learn this from watching Frasier

Your welcome, when you take a life, that forefiets, obviously, any pretensions that they themselves are human.

so if Sam plays in the mud you can too or more to the point if he steals a muffin you can take all his things because he just surrendered his human rights

Agreed but cosmetic surgery doesn't treat the mental problem. The only way you're going to treat a mental problem is with a psychiatrist not a plastic surgeon.


For the purpose of this argument i'll assume that you aren't being completely specific to plastic surgery but you're saying that surgery can't treat depression. There are many different pathologies which cause depression as a symptom and can be treated with surgery. Would you have a problem with a prisoner having surgery for any of those? or is it just a sex change operation you have problems with?

so if Sam plays in the mud you can too or more to the point if he steals a muffin you can take all his things because he just surrendered his human rights

Nope, but if Sam takes out a .22 and blows away mommy, then yeah.

"could the money be spent elsewhere to greater total benefit?"

I think keeping depression and suicide rates down is a priority for the state, its like having the clinically depressed pay for there own medication and treatment

While I have no core objection to this convict seeking a sex change, I fundamentally find it extremely distasteful that they would expect the state to pay for the sex change after they have broken the law.

The law isn't good enough for them but the state's money is? :rolleyes:

Why should someone who hasn't broken the law have to pay while those who have get a free ride?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/06/26/sex.change.inmate.ap/index.html

The question at the center of the case: Should a murderer serving life in prison get a sex-change operation at taxpayer expense?

The case of Michelle -- formerly Robert -- Kosilek is being closely watched across the country by advocates for other inmates who want to undergo a sex change. Transgender inmates in other states have sued prison officials, and not one has succeeded in persuading a judge to order a sex-change operation.

The Massachusetts Correction Department is vigorously fighting Kosilek's request for surgery, saying it would create a security nightmare and make Kosilek a target for sexual assault.

I'm not going to state my opinion on this right away, partially because I'm not completely certain what my opinion on this is and partially because I think there is often more interesting discussion if the OP isn't a strident opinionated post.

So, do you think the state should pay for a sex re-assignment surgery as part of the medical costs for a transsexual inmate?

(The poll is multiple choice)

I have nothing against transsexuals, but for Christ's sake, at least get your own money to do it.

Nope, but if Sam takes out a .22 and blows away mommy, then yeah.

if Sam takes a .22 and "blows his mommy away" I don't think he is mentally sound, but anyway in case you haven't noticed an eye for an eye is a fairly destructive policy to follow as is committing evil because evil has been done

course I don't want to blur your precious line which makes you superior to a criminal after all its not like the only thing keeping you from being in that exact position is being born in a different place or anything that deals with the fact that your the same

I have nothing against transsexuals, but for Christ's sake, at least get your own money to do it.

Just to get an idea of your position on this, would you have the same position if the prisoner developed cancer?

Just to get an idea of your position on this, would you have the same position if the prisoner developed cancer?

No, because cancer is life threatening, and it does threaten the health of the prison, and thus should be treated.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

Why should someone who hasn't broken the law have to pay while those who have get a free ride?

the bigger question is why doesn't everyone get this paid on the NHS? the prison case is just highlighting the issue really

I have nothing against transsexuals, but for Christ's sake, at least get your own money to do it.

how?

No, because cancer is life threatening, and it does threaten the health of the prison, and thus should be treated.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

Depression can lead to suicide so I would consider it life threatening. Therefore I don't see it as apples and oranges.

Depression can lead to suicide so I would consider it life threatening

Then treat the depression with counseling, and drugs.

I think keeping depression and suicide rates down is a priority for the state, its like having the clinically depressed pay for there own medication and treatment

Well, yeah. But is it better to do, and I use this purely as an example, one sex change or two heart transplants, given you can't do both types of operation? That's the kind of decision I was talking about.

And the article did say that hormonal treatments were helping the depression, so she's not going untreated.

And I say again, I don't know the relative cost of the operations, that was purely an example to show that if you have finite funds you have to put them to the best use possible. And no, I don't know what that use is, I said that in the other post ;)

how?

Step 1: Collect underpants
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit!

Then treat the depression with counseling, and drugs.

Both are important steps to take and I doubt any surgeon would perform an operation like this without having taken all the other steps possible. This is a second line treatment in effect. Used when the others fail

Well, yeah. But is it better to do, and I use this purely as an example, one sex change or two heart transplants, given you can't do both types of operation? That's the kind of decision I was talking about.

thats not the decision though, why have one person become clinically depressed when if you paid for the treatment they could be a happy productive member of society again thus eventually paying for there own treatment :)

Step 1: Collect underpants
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit!

well I suppose it would be putting ebay to good use...

if Sam takes a .22 and "blows his mommy away" I don't think he is mentally sound, but anyway in case you haven't noticed an eye for an eye is a fairly destructive policy to follow as is committing evil because evil has been done

course I don't want to blur your precious line which makes you superior to a criminal after all its not like the only thing keeping you from being in that exact position is being born in a different place or anything that deals with the fact that your the same

Oh well, violence is their language of choice, they made it their language, I didn't.

The last part you lost me on, to me it just sounds like some weird muddling of the issues; if I was born, for whatever reason, in a girls body, my first step to get that fixed would not go out and kill someone.

As it's not an urgent procedure, and as (according to the article) hormone treatments are helping her depression, I don't see why she shouldn't wait until she's released from prison to have the surgery.

Actually, the article says that hormone treatments are not helping (at least according to the inmate). There are, of course, experts on either side who testify one way or the other.

...... I see. So we can keep a woman in a man's prison as long as she has a penis because women are nicer. Interesting.



Why?

And, to extend the question: What bathroom should a pre-op MtF transsexual use? Should she be told that she cannot have surgery because it would allow her to use nicer bathrooms?



Indeed. Apparently more for some people than others.


men should not be in women's prison. the claim "i am a woman in my head" is not a good standard for who is a woman

since she does not have a womans XX genetics and since she will never have a woman's reproductive system, she needs to have no male genetalia before she can be reasonably judged a woman.

and i think that a person should use the public bathroom of the gender they are passing themselves off as. that includes real women, transssexuals and drag queens.

i see no reason to cut her any more slack than anyone else gets in prison.

thats not the decision though, why have one person become clinically depressed when if you paid for the treatment they could be a happy productive member of society again thus eventually paying for there own treatment :)

Yes, it is the decision, because it doesn't work like you say. The health service has finite funds it can spend. Even if it can spend the country's entire national budget every year, there's only so much it can do with the cash.

It has to spend what it's got as wisely as possible. If that doesn't include sex changes, sex changes don't get paid for. If it does, they do.
You can't just magic up the money for a sex change so some person won't be clinically depressed so at some future time they pay taxes to cover their treatment any more than you can just magic up a donor heart for a dying person so in the future they won't be dead and can magic up their own heart.

Apologies for that last sentence.

Just to get an idea of your position on this, would you have the same position if the prisoner developed cancer?

Whatdaya think I am, a reptile? The sex-change operation is cosmetic, like a facelift or a breast transplant (except on a much larger scale). A cancer is deadly, so an operation should be paid for by the state.

Whatdaya think I am, a reptile? The sex-change operation is cosmetic, like a facelift or a breast transplant (except on a much larger scale). A cancer is deadly, so an operation should be paid for by the state.

As I said before if a person is suicidal because of the body they have been born into, and other treatment options fail, it is life threatening. It is a cosmetic operation to save a life in essence

While I have no core objection to this convict seeking a sex change, I fundamentally find it extremely distasteful that they would expect the state to pay for the sex change after they have broken the law.

That's my gut feeling as well. But then again, pretty much all healthcare for inmates is paid for by the sate. I'm fairly certain she'd be working to pay for it herself (or fighting an insurance company) if she weren't a guest of the state.


men should not be in women's prison. the claim "i am a woman in my head" is not a good standard for who is a woman

Why not? It seems better than genitalia or genetics, both of which can be quite fuzzy.

More and more governments are moving towards using a person's perceived gender as their legal gender. I see no reason that this should be different.

since she does not have a womans XX genetics and since she will never have a woman's reproductive system, she needs to have no male genetalia before she can be reasonably judged a woman.

Interesting. So a woman with CAIS (ie. a woman who is XY) who has undescended testes and has been raised as a girl all her life cannot reasonably be judged a woman until those testes are removed? Or are we only counting external genitalia?

and i think that a person should use the public bathroom of the gender they are passing themselves off as. that includes real women, transssexuals and drag queens.

Interesting. So should they have to let her use a women's bathroom at a men's prison, then?

i see no reason to cut her any more slack than anyone else gets in prison.

I don't either. So the question boils down to whether or not this is a necessary medical procedure.

As I said before if a person is suicidal because of the body they have been born into, and other treatment options fail, it is life threatening. It is a cosmetic operation to save a life in essence

Because depression is life threatning, the state should do all it can do to help these poor, wretched souls.

What! You feel the early-stages of depression? Why? Oh, of course, jail time is really depressing. Yeah, of course, this is life threatning, you get let out of jail, we don't want you to commit suicide or anything...

Actually, the article says that hormone treatments are not helping (at least according to the inmate). There are, of course, experts on either side who testify one way or the other.

Hmm, it contradicts itself, doesn't it?

Near the top, she says it's not helped:
Kosilek sued again in 2005, arguing that the hormone treatments, laser hair removal and psychotherapy she has received since Wolf's ruling have not relieved her anxiety and depression.
And later on, she+experts says it has:
They cite the testimony of their experts and Kosilek herself that her feelings of depression have diminished since she began taking hormones.

So hmm.

Because depression is life threatning, the state should do all it can do to help these poor, wretched souls.

What! You feel the early-stages of depression? Why? Oh, of course, jail time is really depressing. Yeah, of course, this is life threatning, you get let out of jail, we don't want you to commit suicide or anything...

Did you ignore the post I made stating that this should be (and is) the final option in treatment? I never said that anyone should be released from prison based on their mental state (although perhaps be moved to a psychiatric ward) but that I believe this should be treated appropriately with all necessary methods

Not to mention the cost of litigating it (which has already superseded the cost of the surgery itself more than twice over).

The cost of litigation is an investent to prevent having to pay for a surgery like that for anybody who feels like having it.




I voted no, and I voted to wonder why we're referring to ths man as a "she".

The same reason I would refer to anyone who self-identified as female as "she" (and anyone who self-identified as male as "he").

Biology 101: If a living organism that reproduces sexually has a penis, it is male.

The cost of litigation is an investent to prevent having to pay for a surgery like that for anybody who feels like having it.



Biology 101: If a living organism that reproduces sexually has a penis, it is male.

Sex and Gender are two separate things.

Sex and Gender are two separate things.

Carnotopolis, don't post again when your first one says a moderator will have to approve it. It just clutters things up.

Go see the Moderated Posts sticky topic in the Moderation forum.

Elective surgery should not be provided inmates in prison.

Physically necessary surgery, yes, simply because prisoners are wards of the state and ought to have certain basic needs met whilst they are locked up, but elective, definitely not.

As I said before if a person is suicidal because of the body they have been born into, and other treatment options fail, it is life threatening. It is a cosmetic operation to save a life in essence

The state regularly puts prisoners on suicide watch for other reasons, and I feel that doing so would be the appropriate course of action in this case.

Sex and Gender are two separate things.

You're right. Sex is either male or female in nature. Living things that reproduce sexually are either male or female.

Gender is a grammatical construct in which nouns in many languages have a feminine or masculine gender.

People use the terms interchangeably (incorrectly) these days because for so long people were too squeamish to say "sex" on TV and used "gender" instead, incorrectly.

The state regularly puts prisoners on suicide watch for other reasons, and I feel that doing so would be the appropriate course of action in this case.

Other reasons with a (some might say) suitable treatment which would solve the problem?

Gender is a grammatical construct in which nouns in many languages have a feminine or masculine gender.


Thats one definition of the word I suppose. Another would be

"Gender is a socially acquired characteristic, and includes psychological, social and cultural characteristics, such as ideas about "masculinity" and "femininity"

Hmm, it contradicts itself, doesn't it?

Near the top, she says it's not helped:

And later on, she+experts says it has:

So hmm.

Yeah, hmmm


The cost of litigation is an investent to prevent having to pay for a surgery like that for anybody who feels like having it.

LOL. How many people do you think would go through a surgery like that on a lark?

Biology 101: If a living organism that reproduces sexually has a penis, it is male.

Actually, biology often defines male and female based on chromosomal components. It really depends on the situation. Even that, however, is a shaky way to do it, considering that a person's chromosomal sex doesn't always match their genitalia or their gender.

Legally, it depends on where you are. Some jurisdictions do it based on genitalia. Some based on chromosomes. And a select few will actually treat a person as their gender, rather than worrying about genitalia or chromosomes.

You may think issues of sex and gender are black and white, but the fact remains that they are not. I see no reason not to refer to a person who self-identifies as female by feminine pronouns.

You're right. Sex is either male or female in nature. Living things that reproduce sexually are either male or female.

Or sometimes a bit of both. People with Klinefelter's Syndrome, for instance, may develop secondary sex characteristics of both sexes.

Other reasons with a (some might say) suitable treatment which would solve the problem?

Too expensive. Just stick a camera in the cell and set the cot on the floor. A far less expensive alternative to a surgery that costs tens of thousands of dollars.

Further, if the need for this surgery was so pressing, then the inmate should have opted for out whilst they were not in prison.

Too expensive. Just stick a camera in the cell and set the cot on the floor. A far less expensive alternative to a surgery that costs tens of thousands of dollars.

And one which, I personally, don't think is the more humane choice. Although I can see why others would beg to differ

That's my gut feeling as well. But then again, pretty much all healthcare for inmates is paid for by the sate. I'm fairly certain she'd be working to pay for it herself (or fighting an insurance company) if she weren't a guest of the state.



Why not? It seems better than genitalia or genetics, both of which can be quite fuzzy.

More and more governments are moving towards using a person's perceived gender as their legal gender. I see no reason that this should be different.



Interesting. So a woman with CAIS (ie. a woman who is XY) who has undescended testes and has been raised as a girl all her life cannot reasonably be judged a woman until those testes are removed? Or are we only counting external genitalia?



Interesting. So should they have to let her use a women's bathroom at a men's prison, then?



I don't either. So the question boils down to whether or not this is a necessary medical procedure.


when an XY woman kills someone and is sentenced to life in prison, the judge will indeed have to deal with whether or not she is woman enough to go to a woman's prison. this is not the case we are talking about.

there are no women's bathrooms in a men's prison, she uses the one in her cell.

and no, its not a necessary medical procedure. if she wanted the freedom to do as she pleases with her body, she should have stayed on the right side of the law.

LOL. How many people do you think would go through a surgery like that on a lark?
Well why not? Apparently to some, all you have to do to get a free sex change is commit a felony then threaten to commit suicide if you can't have it.


Actually, biology often defines male and female based on chromosomal components. It really depends on the situation. Even that, however, is a shaky way to do it, considering that a person's chromosomal sex doesn't always match their genitalia or their gender.

Legally, it depends on where you are. Some jurisdictions do it based on genitalia. Some based on chromosomes. And a select few will actually treat a person as their gender, rather than worrying about genitalia or chromosomes.

You may think issues of sex and gender are black and white, but the fact remains that they are not. I see no reason not to refer to a person who self-identifies as female by feminine pronouns.


Are you saying this inmate has female chromosomes? if not, then that's completely irrelevant.


Or sometimes a bit of both. People with Klinefelter's Syndrome, for instance, may develop secondary sex characteristics of both sexes.

Are you saying this inmate has Klinefelter's Syndrome? if not, then that's also completely irrelevant.

Cluttering the discussion with irrelevant trivia doesn't strengthen your point. If this inmate has either of the conditions listed above, then that MIGHT make a difference. Since he has neither, you're dodging the issue.

when an XY woman kills someone and is sentenced to life in prison, the judge will indeed have to deal with whether or not she is woman enough to go to a woman's prison. this is not the case we are talking about.

No, but your stance opens up all sorts of questions - ones which I was probing.

Personally, I think it is ridiculous to state that a judge would have to determine if a woman with CAIS would go to a woman's prison. It seems pretty self-evident to me. In fact, it seems that your stance would be that she would go there, since she doesn't have a penis.

and no, its not a necessary medical procedure.

Ever? Or just when the person in question happens to be in jail? After all, according to you, she can never be "reasonably" seen as a woman until she has the procedure carried out, despite the fact that she self-identifies as a woman, acts as a woman, and the law in many places would treat her as such.

if she wanted the freedom to do as she pleases with her body, she should have stayed on the right side of the law.

Last time I checked, the right to one's own body (and to make one's own medical decisions) is not removed by incarceration.


Well why not? Apparently to some, all you have to do to get a free sex change is commit a felony then threaten to commit suicide if you can't have it.

Thing is, most people don't want a sex change. And even those who do spend years mulling over it. Doctors generally require not only a great deal of counseling beforehand, but also that the person live as their gender for at least a year. It isn't something people just do for fun on a weekend, after all.

Are you saying this inmate has female chromosomes? if not, then that's completely irrelevant.

Are you saying this inmate has Klinefelter's Syndrome? if not, then that's also completely irrelevant.

No, it isn't. It serves to show how shaky our concepts of sex and gender really are. It isn't just a matter of penis=male and no penis = female. There's quite a bit more to it than that, especially when you get into psychological, rather than purely physical, issues.

Cluttering the discussion with irrelevant trivia doesn't strengthen your point. If this inmate has either of the conditions listed above, then that MIGHT make a difference. Since he has neither, you're dodging the issue.

Not at all. I'm pointing out the fact that these issues are not black and white, no matter how much you like them to be. Examples tend to help when explaining something. Sex and gender are not as clearly demarcated (or as clearly related) as people would like them to be. None of the classification schemes catch everyone. As such, it makes much more sense to deal with someone as the gender to which they self-identify, rather than trying to force them into a mold they may or may not fit. That is why I have no problem referring to a MtF transsexual as "she". As far as she is concerned, she is female. I see no reason to argue.

And with that, I'm goin' home...

I think if an inmate wishes to have a sex change they should be allowed to do so however there would need to be some measures put in place so it doesn't come under some sick abuse... You mean inmates deciding to get a sex changed, then changing back, and around again? Yeah, I mean...when you've got a lot of time on your hands, radically altering your body both physically and hormonally is certainly something I'm sure a lot of people would consider doing. :P

It would "make him a target of sexual assault" and be a "security nightmare", eh?

Please explain to me why someone with different parts is somehow dangerous all of a sudden? Do your guards suck so much they can be easily seduced or something?

And as for sexual assault, why can't they just move him to a woman's prison?

The Correctional Office is lying.

Thing is, most people don't want a sex change. And even those who do spend years mulling over it. Doctors generally require not only a great deal of counseling beforehand, but also that the person live as their gender for at least a year. It isn't something people just do for fun on a weekend, after all.


I was being sarcastic.

But since you mention it, are you saying your logic is:
Not many people would do it so we should let him?


No, it isn't. It serves to show how shaky our concepts of sex and gender really are. It isn't just a matter of penis=male and no penis = female. There's quite a bit more to it than that, especially when you get into psychological, rather than purely physical, issues.


They're not shaky at all. If a man is born with female chromosomes then that's what we call a MALFUNCTION. It's a genetic defect, a mutation, etc.


Not at all. I'm pointing out the fact that these issues are not black and white, no matter how much you like them to be. Examples tend to help when explaining something. Sex and gender are not as clearly demarcated (or as clearly related) as people would like them to be. None of the classification schemes catch everyone. As such, it makes much more sense to deal with someone as the gender to which they self-identify, rather than trying to force them into a mold they may or may not fit. That is why I have no problem referring to a MtF transsexual as "she". As far as she is concerned, she is female. I see no reason to argue.


Examples are useful only when they serve to illustrate the norm. What percentage of the population has Kleinfelter's Syndrome?

It's not necessary to catch EVERYONE. If you go down that road, it becomes impossible to define anything, and that's just silly.


And with that, I'm goin' home...

Drive safe.

It would "make him a target of sexual assault" and be a "security nightmare", eh?

Please explain to me why someone with different parts is somehow dangerous all of a sudden? Do your guards suck so much they can be easily seduced or something?

And as for sexual assault, why can't they just move him to a woman's prison?

The Correctional Office is lying.

Exactly. Everybody knows that nobody ever gets raped in prison. Those correctional officers are right on top of their game, I tell ya.

They're not shaky at all. If a man is born with female chromosomes then that's what we call a MALFUNCTION. It's a genetic defect, a mutation, etc.

I think Dem's just trying to make the point that your biological sex is not always going to match your gender.

no.

it should not be allowed even if she pays for it herself.

you cant have a woman in a man's prison and she shouldnt be able to do something medical that gets her moved to a nicer prison.

Well then, perhaps we should wonder why woman murderers get better lodgings then male murderers! It's bathrooms on a grand, felonious scale!

Seriously. I don't think getting a gender change is going to get you a nicer prison. Because I don't think an all-male maximum security prison is worse than an all-female maximum security prison.

Exactly. Everybody knows that nobody ever gets raped in prison. Those correctional officers are right on top of their game, I tell ya.

Did you even fucking read my post?

I said she wouldn't be more a target of sexual assault than any other inmate if she was moved to a woman's prison. Because, if she knows and the guards know how to keep their fucking mouthes shut, she's just another murderer.

How about you take a nice quote for the day-

"We must be the change we're looking for in the world"
-Ghandi

Basically, we shouldn't disregard little stuff just because it is not big.


Did you just use a quote by Ghandi to justify your hatred and intolerance? I think that's a new low on twisting words on NSG.

...Because I don't think an all-male maximum security prison is worse than an all-female maximum security prison.

Yes... but the female prison is way hotter. A male prisoner could fake his condition, get the operation - and then get transfered to a totally hot female prison and have great sex with caged lesbians for the rest of his life. This is not justice! Awesome - but not justice.

Discrimination to maintain the safety of women.

Women? I'm sorry, did you just contribute to the societal stereotype that woman, even woman criminals who have demonstrated the capacity to kill/rape/steal/loot/pillage/etc in the past, are incapable of abusing men?

Congratulations, you are now part of the problem, and are contributing to sexist ideas in our community at large!

HIGH FIVE!

Yes... but the female prison is way hotter. A male prisoner could fake his condition, get the operation - and then get transfered to a totally hot female prison and have great sex with caged lesbians for the rest of his life. This is not justice! Awesome - but not justice.

You have GOT to be kidding.

And, to extend the question: What bathroom should a pre-op MtF transsexual use? Should she be told that she cannot have surgery because it would allow her to use nicer bathrooms?

Hey! And the reason for not having coed bathrooms is privacy from people who are attracted to them (Really, that's the only reason I can think of) so lesbians shouldn't be able to use woman's restrooms, and the same goes for gays and men's restrooms! BY GOD, YOU'D NEED A WHOLE FUCKING NEW BATHROOM FOR BISEXUALS!

No, there's really nothing relevant in this post. I'm sorry you probably wasted 30 seconds of your life, which you will never ever get back, during which the Grim Reaper drew closer, as he always draws closer.

I don't see why she shouldn't wait until she's released from prison to have the surgery.

Because she's in for life. And frankly, postmortem gender change is more than a little pointless.

I think South park Said it best. " I'm not a woman, I'm a jusy a guy with mutilated penis." I think this applies is the situation.

Did you even fucking read my post?

I said she wouldn't be more a target of sexual assault than any other inmate if she was moved to a woman's prison. Because, if she knows and the guards know how to keep their fucking mouthes shut, she's just another murderer.

Do you understand the concept of sarcasm?

I think Dem's just trying to make the point that your biological sex is not always going to match your gender.

I know the point she was making, but it's irrelevant semantics. We're not talking about someone who has chromosomes that don't match his sex. It makes no sense to completely redefine one's definition of human sexual identity based on genetic defects that aren't even involved in the current issue.

Hmm, it contradicts itself, doesn't it?

Near the top, she says it's not helped:

And later on, she+experts says it has:


So hmm.

No, it says it hasn't "relieved" it. It helped, but it isn't completely gone.

I think South park Said it best. " I'm not a woman, I'm a jusy a guy with mutilated penis." I think this applies is the situation.

If a woman gets breast enlargement is that mutilation?

Do you understand the concept of sarcasm?

My bad. On NSG it's hard to tell if someone's being sarcastic or if they're just out of their mind.

Did you even fucking read my post?

I said she wouldn't be more a target of sexual assault than any other inmate if she was moved to a woman's prison. Because, if she knows and the guards know how to keep their fucking mouthes shut, she's just another murderer.

Hey, maybe you should tone down on the profanity before you have to report yourself.

If a woman gets breast enlargement is that mutilation?

Huh. I don't know. Let's check Merriam Webster:

Main Entry: mu·ti·late
Pronunciation: 'myü-t&-"lAt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -lat·ed; -lat·ing
Etymology: Latin mutilatus, past participle of mutilare, from mutilus truncated, maimed
1 : to cut up or alter radically so as to make imperfect <the child mutilated the book with his scissors>
2 : to cut off or permanently destroy a limb or essential part of : CRIPPLE

Nope, doesn't look like it.

Hey, maybe you should tone down on the profanity before you have to report yourself.

I'm not flaming anyone. Just cursing. As far as I know, cursing is not prohibited on NSG. I have never seen anyone, ever, get warned, banned, or DEATed for cursing. If profanity is suddenly banned on NSG, about 3/4s of NS will be banned.

Perhaps you should take your personal irritation at me out in a better manner than threatening mod action.

So, do you think the state should pay for a sex re-assignment surgery as part of the medical costs for a transsexual inmate?

Yes, I do. And I don't think it should be of any concern to anyone other than the inmate and their medical practitioner.

I'm not flaming anyone. Just cursing. As far as I know, cursing is not prohibited on NSG. I have never seen anyone, ever, get warned, banned, or DEATed for cursing. If profanity is suddenly banned on NSG, about 3/4s of NS will be banned.

Perhaps you should take your personal irritation at me out in a better manner than threatening mod action.Oh no, I couldn't do that...you'd run off an report every word again. Because it's only okay when you're acting like a prick (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=531434
).

I'm not flaming anyone. Just cursing. As far as I know, cursing is not prohibited on NSG. I have never seen anyone, ever, get warned, banned, or DEATed for cursing. If profanity is suddenly banned on NSG, about 3/4s of NS will be banned.

Perhaps you should take your personal irritation at me out in a better manner than threatening mod action.

That's right. If someone wants to show off their crude immaturity who are we to stand in their way?

I mean, just because the rest of us have grown out of the need to show how big and bad we are by using strong language instead of mature and reasonable arguments, it doesn't mean we have to expect those who are still stuck in the "I'm obviously right because I feel so strongly about it I have to cuss to express it" rut to keep up.

Yes, I do. And I don't think it should be of any concern to anyone other than the inmate and their medical practitioner.

Ditto. I could give a shit about the rest of this thread.

My bad. On NSG it's hard to tell if someone's being sarcastic or if they're just out of their mind.

Fair enough.

My bad. On NSG it's hard to tell if someone's being sarcastic or if they're just out of their mind.

But at the same time, it is child's play to spot those who lack the requisite subtlety to adequately differentiate between the two.

No medical procedure should be funded by the state - ever.

But at the same time, it is child's play to spot those who lack the requisite subtlety to adequately differentiate between the two.

For example, here's the kind of scintillating debate I come to NSG for!

OK, I was going to try and reply to every post I found objectionable in this thread, but there were far too many. I'll just list the posters with whom I had a problem with, and if any want to know what it was or carry on the debate then let me know;
Wilgrove
New Granada
Neo Bretonnia
Sumamba Buwhan
Johnny B Goode
Ashmoria
Andaluciae
1010102
Neesika (because she said "I could care less" instead of "I couldn't care less", and I'm objecting on grammar grounds).

Yeah, this is a subject that's very close to me, and, frankly, given the amount of bullshit sent flying by this thread I doubt I'll be able to address many posts.

there are various theory's batted about and odds are there is no one reason but Robert is a she because she feels she is as such

its kind of a respect and anti-sex rules thing though technically Robert is a male he feels in his mind he is a she and really thats fairly important

I feel a little bit like a deer. Should I be called bambi now?

OK, I was going to try and reply to every post I found objectionable in this thread, but there were far too many. I'll just list the posters with whom I had a problem with, and if any want to know what it was or carry on the debate then let me know;
Wilgrove
New Granada
Neo Bretonnia
Sumamba Buwhan
Johnny B Goode
Ashmoria
Andaluciae
1010102
Neesika (because she said "I could care less" instead of "I couldn't care less", and I'm objecting on grammar grounds).

Yeah, this is a subject that's very close to me, and, frankly, given the amount of bullshit sent flying by this thread I doubt I'll be able to address many posts.

I demand to know why I haven't adequately offended you so as to be mentioned on your hit list! ;)

I demand to know why I haven't adequately offended you so as to be mentioned on your hit list! ;)

Because you said this:

Yes, I do. And I don't think it should be of any concern to anyone other than the inmate and their medical practitioner.

So you're on the good list :p

I demand to know why I haven't adequately offended you so as to be mentioned on your hit list! ;)

Back in the day I woulda been on the list, too. I am but a hollow shell of my former idiot greatness.

...What about ethnic changes? Say someone who is white truly thinks they're black? Does the same apply to you guys?

...What about ethnic changes? Say someone who is white truly thinks they're black? Does the same apply to you guys?

Well, if you can find an accepted psychological disorder based around a feeling of being another race, where changing race is the only generally effective remedy...

OK, I was going to try and reply to every post I found objectionable in this thread, but there were far too many. I'll just list the posters with whom I had a problem with, and if any want to know what it was or carry on the debate then let me know;
Wilgrove
New Granada
Neo Bretonnia
Sumamba Buwhan
Johnny B Goode
Ashmoria
Andaluciae
1010102
Neesika (because she said "I could care less" instead of "I couldn't care less", and I'm objecting on grammar grounds).

Yeah, this is a subject that's very close to me, and, frankly, given the amount of bullshit sent flying by this thread I doubt I'll be able to address many posts.

How lofty of you.

How lofty of you.

I don't have a loft, I have an attic.

But thanks for your commentary.

I don't have a loft, I have an attic.

But thanks for your commentary.

You're welcome.

Neesika (because she said "I could care less" instead of "I couldn't care less", and I'm objecting on grammar grounds).I think we've had this discussion before, and I absolutely refuse to budge. I honestly COULD care less about addressing the rampant stupidity in this thread. So :P :D

Women? I'm sorry, did you just contribute to the societal stereotype that woman, even woman criminals who have demonstrated the capacity to kill/rape/steal/loot/pillage/etc in the past, are incapable of abusing men?


It is not sexist to say that women are naturally physically weaker than men. Thats not to say that this can't be overcome but a man and woman performing the same amount of physical exercise per day will have different muscle mass and strength. Get off your high horse

The state should pay. By that, I don't mean that this should be a special case, rather that such treatment should always be paid for by the state when people cannot afford it themselves. I think it is plain that this is a totally different matter than cosmetic surgery where people could quite easily continue to live a tolerable life without an operation.

I demand to know why I haven't adequately offended you so as to be mentioned on your hit list! ;)

I was wondering why I didn't make it either and I came out swinging against funding the surgery...

Hell no, it's not a medical procedure needed to keep people alive, it's not an emergency type medical procedure, it's purely cosmetic, which means that the dudes can pay for it themselves.

I happen to agree only live saving and correctional help should be funded (things like therapy)

I wont go so far as to say this is purely cosmetic but it has major roots in it. as such I think that the inmate should be able to pay for it them selfs but not have the state foot the bill

Because transsexuals operations are purely cosmetic, men who change into women don't get to produce babies and have periods, their vagina's and boobs are purely cosmetic *snips rest of post*

It is only a matter of time until we can create a viable zygote from genetic material of the same gender...

That, or much better organ creation/implantation...

OK, I was going to try and reply to every post I found objectionable in this thread, but there were far too many. I'll just list the posters with whom I had a problem with, and if any want to know what it was or carry on the debate then let me know;
Wilgrove
New Granada
Neo Bretonnia
Sumamba Buwhan
Johnny B
Ashmoria
Andaluciae
1010102
Neesika (because she said "I could care less" instead of "I couldn't care less", and I'm objecting on grammar grounds).

Yeah, this is a subject that's very close to me, and, frankly, given the amount of bullshit sent flying by this thread I doubt I'll be able to address many posts.

I don't care if anybody has a problem with me. Partly because there are so many who do. Haven't you always had a problem with me? Jeez.

As I said before if a person is suicidal because of the body they have been born into, and other treatment options fail, it is life threatening. It is a cosmetic operation to save a life in essence

Point taken. Guess I didn't see that.

I don't care if anybody has a problem with me. Partly because there are so many who do. Haven't you always had a problem with me? Jeez.

Right there with ya

Right there with ya

Thanks. There are a few NSers who just have problems with me. Newsflash: I don't give a shit. There's a cozy place you can put that problem.

I agree with wilgrove. Plus, we're talking about a murderer with a life sentence, who should already have some of a citizen's basic rights revoked because of the harm to other individuals in society. Why should he have the right to have the state pay for the surgery?


this much needed "re-assignment" should have been thought of before the felony murder was commited.

No- no elaborate procedure at tax-payer expense. I would approve it be neutered,but only by a doctor in training as a specimen.

This is what happens when someone has all day every day to dream about how they can fuck with the system for sport. maybe breaking rocks for 16 hours a day would lessen that urge.

This is what happens when someone has all day every day to dream about how they can fuck with the system for sport. maybe breaking rocks for 16 hours a day would lessen that urge.

Someone would have a sex change for sport?

I don't care if anybody has a problem with me. Partly because there are so many who do. Haven't you always had a problem with me? Jeez.

Right there with ya

It's not a problem with you, it's a problem with some of your posts in this thread. JBG, why would you think that?

Someone would have a sex change for sport?

Does it really seem that outrageous?

Maybe the whole thing seems outrageous to start with.

And,a few years down the road, we'll be hearing how they need to be un-re-assigned because they were the right gender in the right body to start with.

I'm wondering more about their victim, who was alive and re-assigned to death. Maybe they werent confused and knew they were alive and wanted to stay here.

Does it really seem that outrageous?

Maybe the whole thing seems outrageous to start with.

And,a few years down the road, we'll be hearing how they need to be un-re-assigned because they were the right gender in the right body to start with.



Yes it is far too outrageous to be a legitimate concern

And,a few years down the road, we'll be hearing how they need to be un-re-assigned because they were the right gender in the right body to start with.

From what I've read, rates of regret after a sex re-assignment surgery are lower than 1%. It isn't like anyone just does it on a whim. This is a step only taken after years of therapy and patients are generally required to live as their new gender for at least a year (hormone treatments and all) before having the surgery.

I'm wondering more about their victim, who was alive and re-assigned to death. Maybe they werent confused and knew they were alive and wanted to stay here.

And maybe she really was a threat and the killing really was in self-defense. Conviction doesn't necessarily mean guilty. Either way, it really isn't relevant to the healthcare that an inmate should or should not receive.

Conviction doesn't necessarily mean guilty.

Yes, it does.

Why would we be paying for sex change operations for murderers when plenty of law abiding citizens can't even get basic healthcare?

Yes, it does.

So no innocent person has ever been convicted of a crime? What an interesting (and completely incorrect) theory you have there.

Why would we be paying for sex change operations for murderers when plenty of law abiding citizens can't even get basic healthcare?

Once again, this sounds like it could be an argument for increasing healthcare funding across the board, rather than an argument against funding it in this particular case.

(Or not, of course, but it sounds like it could be, hehe)

Once again, this sounds like it could be an argument for increasing healthcare funding across the board, rather than an argument against funding it in this particular case.

I don't see how this could possibly be a life threatening medical condition.

OK, I was going to try and reply to every post I found objectionable in this thread, but there were far too many. I'll just list the posters with whom I had a problem with, and if any want to know what it was or carry on the debate then let me know;
Wilgrove
New Granada
Neo Bretonnia
Sumamba Buwhan
Johnny B Goode
Ashmoria
Andaluciae
1010102
Neesika (because she said "I could care less" instead of "I couldn't care less", and I'm objecting on grammar grounds).

Yeah, this is a subject that's very close to me, and, frankly, given the amount of bullshit sent flying by this thread I doubt I'll be able to address many posts.


Well if we had universal healthcare I would be for it but we don't. Besides, I have little sympathy for murderers. I've been suicidally depressed too, so it's not like I have no idea what she is going through from that angle. I also sometimes feel that I should have been born a woman/hermaphrodite with the conflits I deal with.

If Michelle kills herself, I think she's lucky to leave this hellish world. Apparently Michelle is doing okay with hormone therapy though, so good for her. When she gets out, she can find a way to pay for it herself just like the rest of us poor slobs in the US would have to.

I do think we should move to a system of universal healthcare though. I guess it's what I see as a matter of fairness to those of use who don't kill people and deal with the drugery of life, workign our asses off to pay insane amounts of money for health insurance.

I don't see how this could possibly be a life threatening medical condition.

Talk to a transsexual person who has contemplated or even attempted suicide because of the disparity between their gender and body.

Once again, this sounds like it could be an argument for increasing healthcare funding across the board, rather than an argument against funding it in this particular case.

(Or not, of course, but it sounds like it could be, hehe)

It was an argument for more healthcare in general.

I don't really care much about what's done with this one prisoner in regards to a sex change operation.

It's not a problem with you, it's a problem with some of your posts in this thread. JBG, why would you think that?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12233912&postcount=28

And because puberty made me paranoid.

It is not sexist to say that women are naturally physically weaker than men. Thats not to say that this can't be overcome but a man and woman performing the same amount of physical exercise per day will have different muscle mass and strength. Get off your high horse

Umm...What on EARTH does muscle mass and strength have to do with the disposition to commit crimes?

Absolutely nothing.

I don't NEED a high horse to be higher than that kind of non sequitorial argument.

I'm I the only one who is somewhat disturbed that so much hatred and bigotry can exist even in such a giant bastion of liberalism as NSG? Dismissing someone's legitimate medical program as some kind of cynical ploy to cost the state money and get moved to a "nicer" prison? That line of thinking is extremely paranoid. How do we know that prisoner isn't faking kidney problems? That bastard just wants to get moved to a hospital!

Not being in the correct body is a life-threatening problem. That's that.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12233912&postcount=28

And because puberty made me paranoid.

Can I ask why the only two quotes about you in your sig other than the thread-win are insults? Nadkor calling you a newbie who posts a lot and Darknovae calling you "bad insane".

Umm...What on EARTH does muscle mass and strength have to do with the disposition to commit crimes?

Absolutely nothing.

I don't NEED a high horse to be higher than that kind of non sequitorial argument.

I'm talking about in a prison context. The likelihood of a man overpowering a woman is much more likely than they other way around. Intent isn't enough in that kind of situation. You need to have the means to carry out your intention. In prison there aren't (at least there aren't meant to be) the equilisers of weaponry

I'm talking about in a prison context. The likelihood of a man overpowering a woman is much more likely than they other way around. Intent isn't enough in that kind of situation. You need to have the means to carry out your intention. In prison there aren't (at least there aren't meant to be) the equilisers of weaponry

As I said, she is a woman, and if she is moved to a woman's prison, she is not more likely to be sexually assaulted.

I'm sorry if you're thinking of a different post than I am, my head kind of hurts right now.

Not being in the correct body is a life-threatening problem. That's that.

No, not really. It's just a stressor.

Talk to a transsexual person who has contemplated or even attempted suicide because of the disparity between their gender and body.

Murderers should spend a lot of time contemplating suicide.

Again, this is something the guy should have considered before he decided to murder someone and destroy the lives of his loved ones.

Murderers shouldn't get any elective surgery, this has nothing to do with the incidental aspects of his request, but with the more general principle of punishing murderers by depriving them of liberty.

As I said, she is a woman, and if she is moved to a woman's prison, she is not more likely to be sexually assaulted.

I'm sorry if you're thinking of a different post than I am, my head kind of hurts right now.

You've misunderstood the point of my original post. I'm arguing against the idea of same sex prisons

Can I ask why the only two quotes about you in your sig other than the thread-win are insults? Nadkor calling you a newbie who posts a lot and Darknovae calling you "bad insane".

Pancake wasn't insulting me, and there aren't exactly a lot of quotes on this forum speaking highly of me.

Once again, this sounds like it could be an argument for increasing healthcare funding across the board, rather than an argument against funding it in this particular case.

(Or not, of course, but it sounds like it could be, hehe)

Well you can only have it one way or another, free healthcare for all or none. It's absurd to think that you should only allow free healthcare for inmates.

Murderers should spend a lot of time contemplating suicide.

Perhaps. But it would seem that said contemplation should come from their crimes, not from another condition. If this were a case of clinical depression where an imbalance of chemicals in the brain was causing it, would you say that a prisoner should not be treated?

Again, this is something the guy should have considered before he decided to murder someone and destroy the lives of his loved ones.

Perhaps, assuming that he did murder someone.

Murderers shouldn't get any elective surgery, this has nothing to do with the incidental aspects of his request, but with the more general principle of punishing murderers by depriving them of liberty.

Ok.

Well you can only have it one way or another, free healthcare for all or none. It's absurd to think that you should only allow free healthcare for inmates.

Inmates generally cannot provide for their own healthcare. They are the responsibility of the state.

Personally, I'd prefer that every human being have access to at least basic healthcare regardless of their ability to pay for it - and quite possibly more than basic healthcare. But my government and most of the people in my country don't seem to agree.

Inmates generally cannot provide for their own healthcare. They are the responsibility of the state.

Personally, I'd prefer that every human being have access to at least basic healthcare regardless of their ability to pay for it - and quite possibly more than basic healthcare. But my government and most of the people in my country don't seem to agree.

I heard that at least half of all USians do want national healthcare. By the way do the democarats support free healthcare? Because if not then you're pretty much fucked.

I heard that at least half of all USians do want national healthcare. By the way do the democarats support free healthcare? Because if not then you're pretty much fucked.

Some do, some don't, from what I can tell. But I do think that, like many more "liberal" mindsets, the number of people who think it should be provided is increasing. A decade ago, suggesting it would have been political suicide for any politician, I think.

You've misunderstood the point of my original post. I'm arguing against the idea of same sex prisons

Whoops. Like I said, sorry I was thinking of a different post.

But...Isn't the fact a man could overpower a woman more easily than a woman could overpower a man actually an argument FOR same sex prisons?

Whoops. Like I said, sorry I was thinking of a different post.

But...Isn't the fact a man could overpower a woman more easily than a woman could overpower a man actually an argument FOR same sex prisons?

Now i'm the one making a mistake. I meant mixed sex

No, not really. It's just a stressor.

Which can lead to suicidal urges, which are life threatening.

Therefore, the root cause of being in the wrong body is life-threatening.

Perhaps. But it would seem that said contemplation should come from their crimes, not from another condition. If this were a case of clinical depression where an imbalance of chemicals in the brain was causing it, would you say that a prisoner should not be treated?



Perhaps, assuming that he did murder someone.



Ok.

We have to work on the assumption that convicted murderers actually did murder someone, or else we may as well not have jails. I can accept that in one special case special presumption of possible innocence can be made- the death penalty - but only because it can never be redressed.

I imagine that releasing murderers from jail would cure any jail-related depression that they have, but the point of jail is to punish them, and the mental anguish that comes around because of being in jail - be it agony at not being free, or agony at not being free to have a sex change - is part and parcel of the punishment.

Murderers should be permitted only the most basic and essential of medical care, nothing elective.

Which can lead to suicidal urges, which are life threatening.

Therefore, the root cause of being in the wrong body is life-threatening.

I bet being in jail can lead to suicidal urges too.

What of it?

Murderers should be permitted only the most basic and essential of medical care, nothing elective.

Do you extend this to cover psychological treatment?

We have to work on the assumption that convicted murderers actually did murder someone, or else we may as well not have jails.

But I think the possibility of innocence has to be taken into account when we're talking about how we treat the men and women in those jails. Too many people seem to want to treat inmates inhumanely, so I think it is important to bear the possibility of innocence in mind.

This is especially true in a case where the convicted did not argue that he did nothing, but instead argued that he killed in self-defense, something that would be extremely difficult to determine with any certainty.

I imagine that releasing murderers from jail would cure any jail-related depression that they have, but the point of jail is to punish them, and the mental anguish that comes around because of being in jail - be it agony at not being free, or agony at not being free to have a sex change - is part and parcel of the punishment.

The problem is that the mental anguish in this case isn't coming around because of being in jail. It is coming around because someone is transsexual. That sort of mental anguish would most likely be a problem if this were your next door neighbor, instead of an inmate in a prison.

I certainly don't think anyone should be able to say, "Jail is making me depressed, let me out," and actually get out of jail - even if it is true. I'm iffy on what should be done in this case, not because I don't think she should be allowed to have the surgery - she should - but because I am iffy as to whether or not the state, at least in its current set-up, should pay for it.

I bet being in jail can lead to suicidal urges too.

What of it?

That cause of depression has no other treatment than medication and counselling. This has a third option in the form of surgery

Prisoners should be forced to have sex changes - that might deter a few.

And maybe she really was a threat and the killing really was in self-defense. Conviction doesn't necessarily mean guilty. Either way, it really isn't relevant to the healthcare that an inmate should or should not receive.

Sure.

Then, the efforts should be towards an appeal, another process which is so often abused by criminals with nothing else to do.

Its not healthcare. Its a luxury.

Its not healthcare. Its a luxury.

Do you think that's true for all transsexuals who feel (and whose doctors agree) that they need sex re-assignment surgery? Or is this just for inmates?

suppose prisoner "A" has always had crushing feelings of inadequacy because he feels his penis is too small. Or he is terribly self conscious about a huge nose/cross-eyed/bald/male breasts?

Do we have to cater to his wishes? Do we have to make him whole again?

No.

suppose prisoner "A" has always had crushing feelings of inadequacy because he feels his penis is too small. Or he is terribly self conscious about a huge nose/cross-eyed/bald/male breasts?

Do we have to cater to his wishes? Do we have to make him whole again?

No.

I cannot believe you are seriously comparing transexuality to the insecurity that your penis is too small.

I cannot believe you are seriously comparing transexuality to the insecurity that your penis is too small.

It's been compared to boob jobs and the like throughout the thread.

Do you think that's true for all transsexuals who feel (and whose doctors agree) that they need sex re-assignment surgery? Or is this just for inmates?

For convicted inmates. You have to expect to forfeit things like this.

Some people need caffeine,but if you're convicted of murder, you arent going to get your double latte each morning. You arent going to relax with a single malt.

And dont tout doctors and what they agree on. I could walk into several different doctor's offices within the next hour and walk out with prescriptions for oxycodone,lexapro or viagra.

Doctors will go any way the wind blows.

It's been compared to boob jobs and the like throughout the thread.

And those are just as ridiculous.

And dont tout doctors and what they agree on. I could walk into several different doctor's offices within the next hour and walk out with prescriptions for oxycodone,lexapro or viagra.

Once again, another offensive and silly comparison.

Being unable to get an erection and being in the wrong body are on TOTALLY different levels.

I cannot believe you are seriously comparing transexuality to the insecurity that your penis is too small.

you cant believe that someone could argue that circumstance too?

that isnt a real concern for someone?

people commit suicide over issues many of us would think arent such a big deal.
It doesnt mean its not major to them and everything they do.



Unless I mistook you're statement and that was just a lame attempt to mock me.

you cant believe that someone could argue that circumstance too?

that isnt a real concern for someone?

people commit suicide over issues many of us would think arent such a big deal.
It doesnt mean its not major to them and everything they do.



Unless I mistook you're statement and that was just a lame attempt to mock me.

I'm sorry I questioned your bigotry.

That's what it is. Acting like being trapped in the wrong body is the same as thinking your dick is too small or erectile dysfunction is acting like these people are just a bunch of whiners.

Once again, another offensive and silly comparison.

Being unable to get an erection and being in the wrong body are on TOTALLY different levels.

Silly and offensive if you have no compassion for the person.

Tell that to the persons dealing with it. Its just as real to them as your wrong body argument.

I'm sorry I questioned your bigotry.

That's what it is. Acting like being trapped in the wrong body is the same as thinking your dick is too small or erectile dysfunction is acting like these people are just a bunch of whiners.

bigotry,eh?

I guess being able to label whatever you dont agree with makes you feel better, but you know where you can store all your labels,right?

For convicted inmates. You have to expect to forfeit things like this.

If it isn't a luxury for all transsexuals, then it isn't a luxury for this one. You can't have it both ways. It is either a necessary medical treatment or it isn't.

A:

Thy anal orifice


C Lickers
Don't know if you remember my former nation, but this is Frangland.

It's been about a year.

What's this I read about Drunk Commies taking a hike?

And

You should know better than to risk stating a fresh opinion in here... don't want to be politically incorrect.

hehe

I'm sorry I questioned your bigotry.

That's what it is. Acting like being trapped in the wrong body is the same as thinking your dick is too small or erectile dysfunction is acting like these people are just a bunch of whiners.

It's not as if there is any legitimate proof that gender insecurity is more serious then any other form of insecurity.

Say NO to sex changing! If God wanted you to be the other sex, He would have made you it.

Say NO to sex changing! If God wanted you to be the other sex, He would have made you it.

Umm...

Why did god make you want to be the opposite sex?

And if you answer it's the devils fault, I'm going to be forced to laugh.

Say NO to sex changing! If God wanted you to be the other sex, He would have made you it.

God is a mean kid with a magnifying glass. (Cookie for the reference)

God is a mean kid with a magnifying glass. (Cookie for the reference)

Uhh...Bruce Almighty?

I think that if we're giving out free sex changes, there are people more worthy of being addressed than somebody in prison. If that person in prison can afford it he or she should get as many sex changes as they like.

Uhh...Bruce Almighty?

Bingo. (Gives Zarakon a cookie)

bigotry,eh?

I guess being able to label whatever you dont agree with makes you feel better, but you know where you can store all your labels,right?

Hey CL, you seem to have forgotten one of the major rules around here:

THE RULES Pg. 345 Section 4 Subsection J Paragraph 3:

When rational argument is impossible, either because your point is unsupportable or you lack sufficient knowledge to defend it, using labels is a perfectly acceptable alternative.

Say NO to sex changing! If God wanted you to be the other sex, He would have made you it.

What God?

Hey CL, you seem to have forgotten one of the major rules around here:

THE RULES Pg. 345 Section 4 Subsection J Paragraph 3:

When rational argument is impossible, either because your point is unsupportable or you lack sufficient knowledge to defend it, using labels is a perfectly acceptable alternative.

So you're saying that saying transsexuals do not have a legitimate problem is NOT bigotry?

So you're saying that saying transsexuals do not have a legitimate problem is NOT bigotry?

Not inherently.

What God?

http://mattstone.blogs.com/photos/escoteric_icons/jesus_green_man.jpg

So you're saying that saying transsexuals do not have a legitimate problem is NOT bigotry?

Of course not! Just like those damn gays can't possibly truly be attracted to members of the same sex. They're just pretending so they can be immoral and have teh buttsecks!

Its not healthcare. Its a luxury.

Is the recognised treatment for any other psychological disorder a "luxury"?

Its a luxury.
In your opinion.

He wants a sex change, eh? In my opinion, too bad. You lose the right to have those sort of luxury procedures when in you're in jail.

If the state pays for it, the male-to-female inmate should...."compensate"...the prison guards in some way :upyours:

In your opinion.

People aren't comfy with body dysmorphism. On any level. Everyone is judgmental about it.

I say let people do what they want with their own bits. But no crying if they regret it.

If the state pays for it, the male-to-female inmate should...."compensate"...the prison guards in some way :upyours:

Go wank yourself elsewhere, spotty.

If he really wants to go through all the trouble of trying to surgically hide his true sex, and is sane, then fine. As long as he doesn't expect the government (us) to pay for it, or any other such purely cosmetic procedure. When/if he gets out of prison, he could do anything he likes. But as long as he's in there, he has no business doing anything so frivolous, as realizing some self-indulgent fantasy, emotional disorder driven or not!



Transgender inmates in other states have sued prison officials, and not one has succeeded in persuading a judge to order a sex-change operation.
I actually find that quite surprising, not to mention heartening.. given the sad, ever-worsening state of things today.

Just a question...where the fuck did the idea that sex reassignment surgery us a purely cosmetic surgery come from? To say that is to lump it in with nose jobs, breast enlargements, and other such surgeries. It is an entirely different thing,

I like this quote from Neo-Anarchists from a long time ago now, because it seems to give a personal view on the feelings, one most people will never have:
To all those who think we should just 'deal with it':
You don't know how much it hurts being like this. You don't know how it feels to be in a body that doesn't match your mind. It's a mental pain of a sort most everybody will never experience.
There's only two ways to 'deal with it'. Correct your gender to bring it in line with the way you feel, or die. Because that's the way it is with most of us, eventuslly the weight of living in the wrong body gets too much, and oftentimes it all ends in death.

I bet most of you haven't heard of 'the 50% rule'. It's an offhand guideline bandied about by people over transsexual death rates. The 50% rule is this:
By the age of 30, 50% of all transsexuals die, usually by their own hand.

Does that seem like too many? Well, it is. Even one person dying by their own hand due to not being accepted is too many.

You people, the people that say we should just 'deal with it', you are some of the cause of this. Do you know how much it hurts knowing that you're living a lie, and you can't tell anybody about the way you really feel because you'll be ostracized? It hurts like hell, having a fundamental facet of your being that must be hidden and suppressed so nobody notices.

Pretending to be normal and trying to live life normally doesn't work for most of us. That's the sort of thing that leaves people dead.

Please, if you have a heart, don't tell people they should 'just deal with it'. It's not going to help them.

And one frm Sin which is ridiculously accurate as a loose analogy:
As for how bad it can be...again, I can only approximate what my brother has gone through (and will continue to go through). Just picture yourself, outwardly 'normal'. Imagine that you have a terrible secret...you hate ketchup and everyone else is mad for it. Ketchup on cereal, ketchup on perogies, ketchup icecream...you can't stand the stuff, but you choke it down, day after day, afraid that if you let on you hate it, your family will abandon you, your friends will desert you, and you'll be labelled as someone who has 'chosen' to be different, just to be difficult. You're taught to 'be yourself', to 'listen to your inner voice' when it comes to making ANY decision but this one. In this case, you must betray yourself over and over again just to fit it, and you can never, ever talk about your difference. The confusion becomes so bad, you start to believe you are creating the problem, that if you could just learn to love ketchup, you'd be happy. So you try...but no matter how hard you work at it, your body and mind rebel. You hate yourself for being different. You are deathly afraid of admitting your difference. You are torn, and unsure, and completely alone. Getting up in the morning, knowing you're going to have to continue living a lie is enough to make you want to kill yourself rather than face it anymore.

Mandatory.

That's all I have to say on the subject.