NationStates Jolt Archive

Looks like the Dems and GWB will have to try a little harder to legalize millions of illegal residents...

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush's immigration bill suffered a crushing defeat Thursday in the Senate, when members voted against advancing the controversial legislation.

The tally was 46 to 53, 14 votes shy of the 60 needed to end debate.

The bill would have provided a path to citizenship for some of the 12 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. and toughens border security.

Supporters and opponents of the controversial legislation said that it probably won't be resurrected until after the 2008 elections.

Or just wait until all those Senators that voted "no" get re-elected. That's much more likely.

At least we put a scare into them for a little while.

Or just wait until all those Senators that voted "no" get re-elected. That's much more likely.

At least we put a scare into them for a little while.

I have serious doubts that any vote on this bill will be the deciding factor in any re-election campaign.

I have serious doubts that any vote on this bill will be the deciding factor in any re-election campaign.
I don't think a "Yes" vote for the bill would have help Chambliss get re-elected. It's a big enough issue in Georgia that I do think it would have mattered. Apparently Chambliss and Isakson think so too. They did a heck of a U-turn with their support.

I don't think a "Yes" vote for the bill would have help Chambliss get re-elected. It's a big enough issue in Georgia that I do think it would have mattered. Apparently Chambliss and Isakson think so too. They did a heck of a U-turn with their support.
Given the state of the Georgia Democratic party, I don't think Chambliss is in much danger.

Of course, the solution to illegal immigration is simple, but nobody listens to the clown. :(

Of course, the solution to illegal immigration is simple, but nobody listens to the clown. :(

We all know what your solution is Mr. Lunatic 'Sweeney Todd' Goofballs...

Of course, the solution to illegal immigration is simple, but nobody listens to the clown. :(

If you tell it to me, I promise not to take it seriously. I find your lunacy is often the most intelligent thing in the thread.

If you tell it to me, I promise not to take it seriously. I find your lunacy is often the most intelligent thing in the thread.

Illegal Immigrants come to the U.S. for work. They're poor people looking to make a better life. Obviously, this can't be encouraged, but they aren't criminals. The criminals are the employers. They profit considerably by using cheap, silent labor. No unemployment insurance, no occupational safety standards, no health care. Still other business, even major corporations benefit considerably from the cheap products these first tier manufacturers, farms and other businesses provide by using illegal labor. They are the real problem.

Or think about it this way: Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes that pay for health services, etc? Well, neither do most americans. Very few americans actually pay taxes. When we get our paychecks, our taxes are already took. Employers take taxes. So why aren't we holding employers accountable for that? If we want to deal with illegal immigration once and for all, the key is to make it unprofitable to hire illegal immigrants. Fine employers $500,000 per year per undocumented worker they employ. WIthout jobs, there is nothing here for people to illegaly immigrate for.


OR:

A game show. Who Wants To Be An American? Contests can include eating a pound of kraft cheese slices in 30 seconds, channel surfing and beercan crushing. :)

As much as people love to say "amnesty bad, they illegal must prison deport NOW!!!!!!!!!", fact is our economy will be ruined if we do that. Illegal immigrants are filling a very large sector of labor and workforce at the moment, and if we just decided to round them all up tomorrow and deport them, I doubt we would find enough Americans to fill their jobs (or willing to as the case may be), let alone at the same pay and benefits.

Not that the Republicans seem to care if the economy takes another hit. They always say "pro-economy this, pro-market that", but look at their record...

As much as people love to say "amnesty bad, they illegal must prison deport NOW!!!!!!!!!", fact is our economy will be ruined if we do that. Illegal immigrants are filling a very large sector of labor and workforce at the moment, and if we just decided to round them all up tomorrow and deport them, I doubt we would find enough Americans to fill their jobs (or willing to as the case may be), let alone at the same pay and benefits.

Not that the Republicans seem to care if the economy takes another hit. They always say "pro-economy this, pro-market that", but look at their record...

As well, one must consider the massive cost of trying to actually deport nearly 20 million people. It ain't cheap, ya know.

As well, LG pointed out the real problem. The immigrant aren't the real criminals. They just crossed an imaginary line, really. The real criminals, the ones exploiting the system, are the businesses whom hire these immigrants.

Illegal Immigrants come to the U.S. for work. They're poor people looking to make a better life. Obviously, this can't be encouraged, but they aren't criminals. The criminals are the employers. They profit considerably by using cheap, silent labor. No unemployment insurance, no occupational safety standards, no health care. Still other business, even major corporations benefit considerably from the cheap products these first tier manufacturers, farms and other businesses provide by using illegal labor. They are the real problem.

Or think about it this way: Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes that pay for health services, etc? Well, neither do most americans. Very few americans actually pay taxes. When we get our paychecks, our taxes are already took. Employers take taxes. So why aren't we holding employers accountable for that? If we want to deal with illegal immigration once and for all, the key is to make it unprofitable to hire illegal immigrants. Fine employers $500,000 per year per undocumented worker they employ. WIthout jobs, there is nothing here for people to illegaly immigrate for.

I couldn't agree more. But I would go farther and require all employers, up to and including corporate executives, to personally verify that all of their employees are US citizens or legal residents, and impose personal civil and/or criminal liability on them if they are found to have negligently and/or knowingly employed illegals. Throw a few CEO's in the hole and take away their vacation homes and stock options and see how quickly jobs dry up for illegals.

And one more thing: I would have Congress pass a bill authorizing state and local authorities to enforce federal immigration laws. Once you do this, there will be nowhere for illegals to run, except for the border.

Illegal Immigrants come to the U.S. for work. They're poor people looking to make a better life. Obviously, this can't be encouraged, but they aren't criminals. The criminals are the employers. They profit considerably by using cheap, silent labor. No unemployment insurance, no occupational safety standards, no health care. Still other business, even major corporations benefit considerably from the cheap products these first tier manufacturers, farms and other businesses provide by using illegal labor. They are the real problem.

Or think about it this way: Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes that pay for health services, etc? Well, neither do most americans. Very few americans actually pay taxes. When we get our paychecks, our taxes are already took. Employers take taxes. So why aren't we holding employers accountable for that? If we want to deal with illegal immigration once and for all, the key is to make it unprofitable to hire illegal immigrants. Fine employers $500,000 per year per undocumented worker they employ. WIthout jobs, there is nothing here for people to illegaly immigrate for.


OR:

A game show. Who Wants To Be An American? Contests can include eating a pound of kraft cheese slices in 30 seconds, channel surfing and beercan crushing. :)

As well, one must consider the massive cost of trying to actually deport nearly 20 million people. It ain't cheap, ya know.

As well, LG pointed out the real problem. The immigrant aren't the real criminals. They just crossed an imaginary line, really. The real criminals, the ones exploiting the system, are the businesses whom hire these immigrants.
We will never deport 12 million people. These comments are perfectly appropriate.

The only other part of the equation to solve is to make sure that we deport undesirable illegal residents. We don't need gang members to stay -- we need to abolish the 'sanctuary' concept and check immigration status for arrested suspects.

Oops, one more thing. We need to be reasonably sure that it is not easy to return to the United States illegally.

I couldn't agree more. But I would go farther and require all employers, up to and including corporate executives, to personally verify that all of their employees are US citizens or legal residents, and impose personal civil and/or criminal liability on them if they are found to have negligently and/or knowingly employed illegals. Throw a few CEO's in the hole and take away their vacation homes and stock options and see how quickly jobs dry up for illegals.

And one more thing: I would have Congress pass a bill authorizing state and local authorities to enforce federal immigration laws. Once you do this, there will be nowhere for illegals to run, except for the border.
Companies are already required to file INS forms on every employee. No new laws are needed. States are already doing what the Federal government won't -- enforce immigration laws. I think the status quo can work with a few tweaks here and there and a real commitment from the federal government to enforce border security.

As much as people love to say "amnesty bad, they illegal must prison deport NOW!!!!!!!!!", fact is our economy will be ruined if we do that.

Probably an overstatement.

Illegal immigrants are filling a very large sector of labor and workforce at the moment,

They're filling a large sector of the workforce because businesses want cheap labor and don't care about the negative impact this has on the country.

and if we just decided to round them all up tomorrow and deport them,

A strawman. Nobody is calling for immediate round-ups and deportations. If jobs for them dry up, and better yet, if state and local governments are authorized to enforce federal immigration laws, there will be a great deal of self-deportation and a lot more people available to "round up" those who don't. And it would all take place over time.

I doubt we would find enough Americans to fill their jobs (or willing to as the case may be),

I don't believe that for a minute. There may not be many Americans who want to pick tomatoes (maybe prisoners would be glad to do so, and they'd make a lot more money, even at wetback wages, than they make now pounding out license plates), but plenty who would work in factories, hotels, restaurants and construction. Invaders aren't just doing stoop labor.

let alone at the same pay and benefits.

THAT is the heart of the problem. Businesses have no right to undercut wages, and the public has no right to cheap products and services if they are predicated on illegal alien labor.

I'm more than happy to pay more for lettuce if the borders, language, culture and sovereignty of my country and the dignity of labor performed by my fellow Americans are secured.

Companies are already required to file INS forms on every employee. No new laws are needed. States are already doing what the Federal government won't -- enforce immigration laws. I think the status quo can work with a few tweaks here and there and a real commitment from the federal government to enforce border security.

Actually, state and local governments are NOT doing what the Federal government won't. There are a number of court decisions that have enjoined or overturned state and local efforts to enforce immigration laws on the ground that such enforcement is exclusively a federal responsibility. If Congress specifically authorizes state and local authorities to enforce immigration laws, those cases go into the trash can, as well they should.

Actually, state and local governments are NOT doing what the Federal government won't. There are a number of court decisions that have enjoined or overturned state and local efforts to enforce immigration laws on the ground that such enforcement is exclusively a federal responsibility. If Congress specifically authorizes state and local authorities to enforce immigration laws, those cases go into the trash can, as well they should.

Congress should do that, but the States are acting...
Here's a fact sheet on the new Georgia law.
http://www.wsav.com/midatlantic/sav/news.apx.-content-articles-SAV-2007-06-26-0016.html
It has almost everything one could ask for, except border enforcement.

It has almost everything one could ask for, except border enforcement.

Which makes sense, since they don't have a border. ;)

Oops, one more thing. We need to be reasonably sure that it is not easy to return to the United States illegally.
http://www.southparkstuff.com/images/stories/epiimgs/epi611/611_img_04.jpg

GODDAM MONGORIAN TRY TO TEAR DOWN MY SH*TTY WARR

Which makes sense, since they don't have a border. ;)

See, we're not all dumb crackers down here. We just talk a lot slower.

I'm more than happy to pay more for lettuce if the borders, language, culture and sovereignty of my country and the dignity of labor performed by my fellow Americans are secured.

Illegal immigration is a threat to national sovereignty the same way that smoking a cigarette is murder.

And what "culture" do you refer to, NM? Obviously not any Hispanic culture. Obviously not my culture. So what culture, hmmm?

i am a little confused on this. with majority democrat and bush a little on the democrat side of this issue. why is it being flopped down so bad. is it that certain people don't want Bush to succeed in something they consider good. they don't want to give that to him, or do they actually just not agree with the bill. if only there were a way to leave politics out of issues.

i am a little confused on this. with majority democrat and bush a little on the democrat side of this issue. why is it being flopped down so bad. is it that certain people don't want Bush to succeed in something they consider good. they don't want to give that to him, or do they actually just not agree with the bill. if only there were a way to leave politics out of issues.
Confused? Follow my first rule of legislative quality.

It's bad legislation if Teddy Kennedy supports it.

Looks like the Dems and GWB will have to try a little harder to legalize millions of illegal residents...

Or just wait until all those Senators that voted "no" get re-elected. That's much more likely.

At least we put a scare into them for a little while.


Its sad to see so many people favour their own money over helping millions of poor brown people. So very, very sad.

Its sad to see so many people favour their own money over helping millions of poor brown people. So very, very sad.
I do believe you win the Jesse Jackson prize for playing the race card first in a thread...

Creating an underclass to do manual labor hasn't worked anywhere else it's been tried, why should it work here?

I do believe you win the Jesse Jackson prize for playing the race card first in a thread...

Creating an underclass to do manual labor hasn't worked anywhere else it's been tried, why should it work here?

Its not about creating an underclass. Its about allowing people to share the wealth of the wealthiest nation, and giving them hope of a better future.