NationStates Jolt Archive

if you live in the UK i'd be hard to miss this story :p
i just watched him leave #10 live on the TV, and its the end of an era of unparalleled economic and political stability in recent British history. i hope that Gordon Brown will succeed Blair well :) i also hope that now he is gone, people will put the smaller issues aside (nobody's perfect!) and be thankful for how good things have been these last 10 years under Blair


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6243558.stm

Tony Blair has left Downing Street and travelled to Buckingham Palace, where he will hand in his resignation as prime minister to the Queen.

Earlier, he received a standing ovation from MPs in the House of Commons in unprecedented scenes at the end of his final prime minister's questions.

Politicians from all sides dropped their usual jibes to pay tribute to Mr Blair during the half hour session.

His long-serving chancellor, Gordon Brown, succeeds him as PM later.

Mr Blair and his wife Cherie made the short journey from Downing Street to the Palace by ministerial Jaguar - a car which will stay at the Palace for Mr Brown to use after he is confirmed in the post.

As they left Downing Street the Blair family - including their four children - posed for the gathered world media.

Mr Blair said nothing to the press as they got in the car, but wife Cherie smiled and waved at the press and said she would not "miss" them.

Earlier MPs from all side called a halt to the usual hostilities to pay tribute to him during Mr Blair's final half hour question time.

Mr Blair admitted he had "never pretended to be a great House of Commons man" but he paid tribute to the "noble" work of MPs and - in his final words to Parliament - said: "I wish everyone, friend or foe, well and that is that, the end."

Mr Blair, who was being watched from the public gallery by his family, paid tribute to troops killed in Iraq, saying he was "truly sorry about the dangers they face today" and praised their bravery.

Conservative leader David Cameron paid tribute to Mr Blair's "remarkable achievement" in being prime minister for 10 years, hailing peace in Northern Ireland and Mr Blair's work in the developing world which he said will "endure".

He wished Mr Blair "every success for whatever he does in the future".

Mr Blair thanked Mr Cameron for his tributes and said although he could not wish the Tory leader well politically, "personally I wish both him and his family very well indeed".

Lib Dem leader Sir Menzies Campbell said that, despite their political disagreements, Mr Blair had been "unfailingly courteous" and extended his party's best wishes to the outgoing prime minister and his family.

Mr Blair returned the compliment, saying Sir Menzies had a "generosity of spirit and courtesy".

Mr Blair also exchanged tributes with Northern Ireland first minister Ian Paisley.

if you live in the UK i'd be hard to miss this story :p
i just watched him leave #10 live on the TV, and its the end of an era of unparalleled economic and political stability in recent British history. i hope that Gordon Brown will succeed Blair well :) i also hope that now he is gone, people will put the smaller issues aside (nobody's perfect!) and be thankful for how good things have been these last 10 years under Blair
You serious?

Said it before, but:

Ding Dong! The Witch is dead. Which old Witch? The Wicked Witch!
Ding Dong! The Wicked Witch is dead.

Wake up - sleepy head, rub your eyes, get out of bed.
Wake up, the Wicked Witch is dead. He's gone where the goblins go,
Below - below - below. Yo-ho, let's open up and sing and ring the bells out.
Ding Dong' the merry-oh, sing it high, sing it low.
Let them know
The Wicked Witch is dead!

huzzah!

out with the old, in with the same old...

ah well, at least the new DPM is (and has always been) strongly against the debacle in iraq(le).

Tony Blair just resigned this second. And Brown isn't technically Prime Minister yet...

We are without a leader! Everyone panic! :eek:

Tony Blair just resigned this second. And Brown isn't technically Prime Minister yet...

We are without a leader! Everyone panic! :eek:

w00t! it's the moment i've been waiting for! ANARCHY! WEEEEEEEE!

i also hope that now he is gone, people will put the smaller issues aside (nobody's perfect!)

Yeah, an illegal war based on lies that has cost hundreds of thousands of lives... oops! Such a small issue. :rolleyes:

Tony Blair just resigned this second. And Brown isn't technically Prime Minister yet...

We are without a leader! Everyone panic! :eek:
Not for long, Brown's leaving to see the Queenie as we post!

You serious?

I think PM's after a spin-doctor position ;)

I think PM's after a spin-doctor position ;)

heh! does seem like it. mandleson watch out, there's a doctor in the house!

It makes no difference. In a year's time your country will be under the rule of Harold Saxon. Nothing you do will prevent this.

I think PM's after a spin-doctor position ;)
They're probably about to hire another thousand or so. To persuade us that our new Overseer has a personality.

The BBC's calling it the "Blair Brown Handover". It sounds like some shady 1920's Gangster deal.

The Blairites and Brownites meet in a secluded Londonian alleyway. Blair and Brown step out of their cars, and then suddenly...

Look out! Eric Joyce has a heater! BLAM BLAM!

It makes no difference. In a year's time your country will be under the rule of Harold Saxon. Nothing you do will prevent this.

That's OK. He's very good. I'd vote for him.

That's OK. He's very good. I'd vote for him.
Effective at keeping Cabinet in line.

Effective at keeping Cabinet in line.

He's against ship-jumping politicians too. Good man.

On-topic: So was it Blair's decision to resign, if not why hasn't this happened elsewhere?

He's against ship-jumping politicians too. Good man.

He has his finger firmly on the overpopulation problem, and understands what "decimate" actually means :)

You serious?

very much so. Blair hasn't been perfect, but he's been a shitload better than Major or Thatcher, and the economy has been stable and growing for the last 10 years, which is more than could be said under the tories.

Yeah, an illegal war based on lies that has cost hundreds of thousands of lives... oops! Such a small issue. :rolleyes:
that wasn't one of the "small issues" i was referring to. where did i say it was?
personally, that's not one of the things i would want to put aside. i meant issues like disagreeing with some of the methods by which the NHS and education systems have been reformed over the last 10 years. i meant i hope people take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

that wasn't one of the "small issues" i was referring to. where did i say it was?

Where did you say it wasn't? This war - and his surveillance society - are his legacy, not to mention the thorough fisting of the UK by the EU he allowed. See the bigger picture? You should know that the picture is far, far bigger than just the economy.

Yeah, with Blair in power there wasn't one, single Alien invasion!
Exactly no nuclear wars!
Zombies have been almost eradicated!
Piracy has been a minor nuisance rather than a significant problem!
Britain has suffered no famines, pandemics, asteroid impacts, tsunamis or rampaging daemonic hordes!

The man's a frigging saint!

¬_¬

very much so. Blair hasn't been perfect, but he's been a shitload better than Major or Thatcher, and the economy has been stable and growing for the last 10 years, which is more than could be said under the tories.


that wasn't one of the "small issues" i was referring to. where did i say it was?
personally, that's not one of the things i would want to put aside. i meant issues like disagreeing with some of the methods by which the NHS and education systems have been reformed over the last 10 years. i meant i hope people take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

i think an illegal war and the avoidable deaths of thousands are WAY to big to be put aside in the appreciation of whatever else the guy's done. seriously unforgivable i'd say.

i think an illegal war and the avoidable deaths of thousands are WAY to big to be put aside in the appreciation of whatever else the guy's done. seriously unforgivable i'd say.
fair enough. not to me. the man was in an untenable situation between the US and the EU/France. i think he did the best anyone could have done in a politically difficult situation.
plus Hussain was murdering hundereds of thousands of his population in Iraq. the equation still stacks up to me.

Where did you say it wasn't? This war - and his surveillance society - are his legacy, not to mention the thorough fisting of the UK by the EU he allowed. See the bigger picture? You should know that the picture is far, far bigger than just the economy.

you made the assumption, not me.
i don't have much of a problem with "surveillance society" (ID cards fine with me for example), nor with the EU (Blair should have taken us into the EMU imo - i hope Brown does)

fair enough. not to me. the man was in an untenable situation between the US and the EU/France. i think he did the best anyone could have done in a politically difficult situation.

If you think this is "the best" he could have done, I'd really hate to see what your apologism would deem the worst.

plus Hussain was murdering hundereds of thousands of his population in Iraq. the equation still stacks up to me.

Yes, because being complicit in the deaths of people is better than not being complicit in it? Right...

you made the assumption, not me.

Your apologism made the assumption very easy to make, seeing as you're trying to sweep the war and the Orwellianism under the carpet as not part of a "bigger picture" - yeah, "the bigger picture" you see after putting blinders on.

i don't have much of a problem with "surveillance society" (ID cards fine with me for example),

Of course you don't, you're a communist. "Das Leben der Anderen (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/)" was made thanks to people like you.

nor with the EU (Blair should have taken us into the EMU imo - i hope Brown does)

Of course you don't, because you've been had.

very much so. Blair hasn't been perfect, but he's been a shitload better than Major or Thatcher, and the economy has been stable and growing for the last 10 years, which is more than could be said under the tories.


If you're basing this purely on economy, Thatcher was better then Blair.

very much so. Blair hasn't been perfect, but he's been a shitload better than Major or Thatcher, and the economy has been stable and growing for the last 10 years, which is more than could be said under the tories.
It might well have been better than Thatcher and Major, but that in no way means that I have to like him or his policy, purely on the basis of 'it could have been worse'. Our economy has been stable, but that's it. We've had no reverse of privatisation of important services, like the railways, and PFI has continued in the NHS and education. While public services have deteriorated taxation of ordinary working and middle class Britons has risen by stealth. We've continued on the path of this surveillance society, tacitly supported US human rights abuses, abused human rights ourselves, and started two wars, none of which are a success.

Hell, at least Thatcher got Thatcherism right. Blair did it and fucked it up.

that wasn't one of the "small issues" i was referring to. where did i say it was?
personally, that's not one of the things i would want to put aside. i meant issues like disagreeing with some of the methods by which the NHS and education systems have been reformed over the last 10 years. i meant i hope people take a step back and look at the bigger picture.
No way. Blair took us to war - twice - and it is he who must be held accountable, and not let off the hook on the basis of 'it could be worse.' I'd say the same over the NHS and education - those are hardly small issues to me.

Blair is gone. Good. Now we have Brown, maybe not a guy with a personality but at least he can probably get the job done. I wonder if he'll reverse any of this 'surveillance society' stuff going. And with Deputy against the Iraq War, maybe more sensible ideas ont that. He can also look after the economy in a better way due to his experience. Now if he gets rid of tuition fees I'll consider the man as a hero.

fair enough. not to me. the man was in an untenable situation between the US and the EU/France. i think he did the best anyone could have done in a politically difficult situation.


....by caving into the yanks? Sorry, not 'caving in'. Bending over and chasing them down the road backwards with ass greased....

plus Hussain was murdering hundereds of thousands of his population in Iraq. the equation still stacks up to me.

That was the Kurds and the Marsh Arabs in the 80's and 90's. Bit too late in 2003.....

By the way, it was the Brown person running the economy....

Said it before, but:

Ding Dong! The Witch is dead. Which old Witch? The Wicked Witch!
Ding Dong! The Wicked Witch is dead.

Wake up - sleepy head, rub your eyes, get out of bed.
Wake up, the Wicked Witch is dead. He's gone where the goblins go,
Below - below - below. Yo-ho, let's open up and sing and ring the bells out.
Ding Dong' the merry-oh, sing it high, sing it low.
Let them know
The Wicked Witch is dead!

You obviously haven't read Wicked.

I would advise that you do, it's first rate. And follow it up with Son of a Witch.

Euugh.

The collective arse-licking during PMQ's was sickening.

Interestingly, as I type, Gordon Brown is now being briefed on how to launch a nuke.

Oooh, and Cherie opened her big mouth again: "Goodbye, we won't miss you" to the press. :p

A strange day indeed.

Best of luck to the incoming PM...Brown has proven himself to be a capable CoftheE, and hopefully his skills will carry over.

The collective arse-licking during PMQ's was sickening.
Still, the Europhobe Tory was hilarious.

Still, the Europhobe Tory was hilarious.
I've only seen the highlights; I'll download the full thing tonight.

It's just so horribly scripted. The standing ovation at the end of PMQs; Blair getting on a train pulling his own luggage...

I loved Tony Blair pre Bush lapdog stage.

I've only seen the highlights; I'll download the full thing tonight.

It's just so horribly scripted. The standing ovation at the end of PMQs; Blair getting on a train pulling his own luggage...
It was thoroughly sickening, although Cherie did manage to screw up the choreography, as usual.

If it weren't for that damned war he may have well gone down in History as the best Pm your Nation ever had..if for nothing other than good friday 1998..bye Tony God speed!:rolleyes:

I always think it is amazing that Blair comes across as a good PM in the US, and yet the majority of people in Britain dislike him (We have a three party system here in Britain (well we have many parties, but three big ones)). He had very little to do with the Belfast Agreement, that was down to Mo Mowlam in the NI Office at the time, and the hard work on both sides from the Irish and Northern Irish leaders.

I always think it is amazing that Blair comes across as a good PM in the US, and yet the majority of people in Britain dislike him (We have a three party system here in Britain (well we have many parties, but three big ones)). He had very little to do with the Belfast Agreement, that was down to Mo Mowlam in the NI Office at the time, and the hard work on both sides from the Irish and Northern Irish leaders.

Debatable but ok

Bye Tony :(

very much so. Blair hasn't been perfect, but he's been a shitload better than Major or Thatcher, and the economy has been stable and growing for the last 10 years, which is more than could be said under the tories.

The Tories had the recession to deal with, something that didn't happen under Blair granted, but when Major left office in 1997, New Labour inherited an extreamly strong economy, and could do nothing but grow for at least the next 5-10 years. It is well documented that Chancellor work and discions take a long time to show they full effect.


that wasn't one of the "small issues" i was referring to. where did i say it was?
personally, that's not one of the things i would want to put aside. i meant issues like disagreeing with some of the methods by which the NHS and education systems have been reformed over the last 10 years. i meant i hope people take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

I would say that screwing over the NHS, students, the Armed Forces and an illegal war all take up a large part of the "big picture". Blair was a grinning, lying, slimy politician, something you could say about many. Mind you he was no worse than Brown is going to be.

Debatable but ok

Well it wasn't going to happen if both sides didn't want it. Maybe it was more the will of the people forcing the leaders to come to terms, or maybe the leaders did finally realise that a peaceful resolution was in everybodies interests. Who can say.

Americans are smrter than the British, Hell so are the Irish, shit so are the French for that matter, you don't deserve Tony, God help us if you "elect" yourselves another Thatcher! which looks likely.. long live Sinn Finn.
Long Live a United Republic .:mp5:

And with one post you lose all credibility. Good job ;)

Well it wasn't going to happen if both sides didn't want it. Maybe it was more the will of the people forcing the leaders to come to terms, or maybe the leaders did finally realise that a peaceful resolution was in everybodies interests. Who can say.

I don't doubt that they were important in the changes but to describe what they did as "hard work" is what I have a problem with. They didn't do anything that I personally would consider hard work. They dragged their feet and bickered about every little detail.

Americans are smarter than the British, Hell so are the Irish, shit so are the French for that matter

On what are you basing that assertion? A UN education report? Personal experiance? Or just prejudice/ignorance on you own behalf. I make no excuses for any; I have met Brits who would struggle to write their own names correctly, likewise I know Americans, Frenchmen and Irishmen (and women) who would struggle to answer a 7 year olds SATT questions. However I have also met people from all the US, Britian, Ireland and France who are far more intelligant than the average.

I don't doubt that they were important in the changes but to describe what they did as "hard work" is what I have a problem with. They didn't do anything that I personally would consider hard work. They dragged their feet and bickered about every little detail.

Well yes, but they've been bickering for years, and have always dragged their feet over everything. The very fact that they were able to reach such a beneficial agreement shows they worked hard to overcome old habits at the very least :p

fair enough. not to me. the man was in an untenable situation between the US and the EU/France. i think he did the best anyone could have done in a politically difficult situation.
The best he could have done... he could quite easily have said no. There was nothing forcing Britain to get invovled in Iraq. It should have just been America's war and none of our concern. Instead he decided to drag this country into a pointless war just to crawl to America. It's always been Blair's way to drag us into other people's problems, from the Balkans to Iraq. He's turned this country into a pathetic joke.

Well yes, but they've been bickering for years, and have always dragged their feet over everything. The very fact that they were able to reach such a beneficial agreement shows they worked hard to overcome old habits at the very least :p

I have a suspicion its less to do with wanting peace and more to do with realising they can use it to get a cool billion funnelled into the province along with the fact that it isn't as cool to be a complete ass of a hardliner anymore. They had to dilute their views or face eventually losing out completely.

That and getting paid while Stormont was suspended is in no way hard work.

I have a suspicion its less to do with wanting peace and more to do with realising they can use it to get a cool billion funnelled into the province along with the fact that it isn't as cool to be a complete ass of a hardliner anymore. They had to dilute their views or face eventually losing out completely. Very good points, I have to agree with you there. But I still hold that they wanted peace as well, but then even after 20 years in my job I still think that deep down everyone is fundamentally decent and moral... It's just that sometimes you need a deep mining team to find it.

That and getting paid while Stormont was suspended is in no way hard work. Well all politicians get paid whether they work or not. There are no performance standards, no compulsory hours of work. Just a heated room and subsidised meals for a bunch of self-opinionated busy bodies.

Very good points, I have to agree with you there. But I still hold that they wanted peace as well, but then even after 20 years in my job I still think that deep down everyone is fundamentally decent and moral... It's just that sometimes you need a deep mining team to find it.

They should be commended for their hard work to become 'decent people' after decades? They did work eventually i'll agree but their version of work is sub-standard in my view

Well all politicians get paid whether they work or not. There are no performance standards, no compulsory hours of work. Just a heated room and subsidised meals for a bunch of self-opinionated busy bodies.

Not hard work. We're agreed ;) I'll stop my thread jacking now

You obviously haven't read Wicked.

I would advise that you do, it's first rate. And follow it up with Son of a Witch.

I haven't. *Takes note*

Not hard work. We're agreed I'll stop my thread jacking now Fair enough.

Now then, we have a new Gov't, without all the hassal of a General Election... Sir Humphey would be proud.

*sigh*
As usual, a Tony Blair thread gets attacked by all these "illegal war" and "human rights" idiots. I don't exactly see how a war can be 'legal' and 'illegal'. I don't see any of you complaining about World War I. And I love it how you always neglect to mention wars like Kosova and Sierra Leone and Afghanistan. Why are these ignored? None of them directly affected us, so why aren't these wars deemed as 'illegal'? Why is Iraq seen as 'controversial' and 'illegal' when it's clear as crystal; Saddam Hussein made it seem like he had WOMD, the Western governments got worried (quite rightly) about a genocidal Middle-Eastern dictator with nuclear weapons and so it led to a war. It's Hussein's own fault. And what the media rarely mentions, as you all seem to be entirely influenced by it's 'facts', is that pre-Iraq War Israel was also threatened by nuclear missiles and so launched an attack to attempt to cripple Hussein's weapons. So, despite what you're led to believe, the "Hussein Has Nuclear Weapons" issue was not some government spin, but a rational deduction from the dictator's behaviour.

And finally, the whole ID and surveillance issue. Quite frankly, I don't see what you're worried about. The cameras are only outside, where people see you anyway. It's hardly like some 1984 indoor monitoring system. And then ID cards. Are we as a nation so slothly and inept that we need to object to this under some disguise of civil rights?

And finally, the whole ID and surveillance issue. Quite frankly, I don't see what you're worried about. The cameras are only outside, where people see you anyway. It's hardly like some 1984 indoor monitoring system. And then ID cards. Are we as a nation so slothly and inept that we need to object to this under some disguise of civil rights?

The innocent have nothing to fear.



Note to stupid people: that was irony.

Are we as a nation so slothly and inept that we need to object to this under some disguise of civil rights?

What would sloth and ineptitude have to do with ID cards?

What would sloth and ineptitude have to do with ID cards?

Psst; you mis-attributed your quote.

Psst; you mis-attributed your quote.

:eek: Ghosts did it

Americans are smarter than the British, Hell so are the Irish, shit so are the French for that matter, you don't deserve Tony, God help us if you "elect" yourselves another Thatcher! which looks likely.. long live Sinn Finn.
Long Live a United Republic .:mp5:

And where might you hail from?

Tony Blair finally resigned. Good for him. His mandate has long expired, and after serving for 10 years, he has aged faster than anyone I've ever seen.

Tony Blair finally resigned. Good for him. His mandate has long expired, and after serving for 10 years, he has aged faster than anyone I've ever seen.

Yeah, I noticed that too!
1997 = fresh-faced kiddo (well, for a politician).
2007 = unnatural life granted by a necromancer.

*sigh*
As usual, a Tony Blair thread gets attacked by all these "illegal war" and "human rights" idiots. I don't exactly see how a war can be 'legal' and 'illegal'. I don't see any of you complaining about World War I. And I love it how you always neglect to mention wars like Kosova and Sierra Leone and Afghanistan. Why are these ignored? None of them directly affected us, so why aren't these wars deemed as 'illegal'? Why is Iraq seen as 'controversial' and 'illegal' when it's clear as crystal; Saddam Hussein made it seem like he had WOMD, the Western governments got worried (quite rightly) about a genocidal Middle-Eastern dictator with nuclear weapons and so it led to a war. It's Hussein's own fault. And what the media rarely mentions, as you all seem to be entirely influenced by it's 'facts', is that pre-Iraq War Israel was also threatened by nuclear missiles and so launched an attack to attempt to cripple Hussein's weapons. So, despite what you're led to believe, the "Hussein Has Nuclear Weapons" issue was not some government spin, but a rational deduction from the dictator's behaviour.

And finally, the whole ID and surveillance issue. Quite frankly, I don't see what you're worried about. The cameras are only outside, where people see you anyway. It's hardly like some 1984 indoor monitoring system. And then ID cards. Are we as a nation so slothly and inept that we need to object to this under some disguise of civil rights?

Oh dear. Someone forgot their medicine....strange for a spin doctor to that but there you go....no accounting for bollocks 'eh?

The Queen should tell Brown that hes not gettig the job as Prime Minister and run HER country herself. I mean, think how much better it would be with 1 person single handedly incharge of the country telling her minions what to do rather than one person being poster boy or girl and having to wait weeks or months for some over paid suits to stop calling each other names and finalise something, i mean without MP's getting 100k + a year in wages, how much richer would the country be?!!!!

(British Government) <:gundge: < (Me) :headbang: :upyours: :sniper: :mp5:

*sigh*
As usual, a Tony Blair thread gets attacked by all these "illegal war" and "human rights" idiots.


The hippy scum...maybe a haircut and a job would sort them out....

The Queen should tell Brown that hes not gettig the job as Prime Minister and run HER country herself. I mean, think how much better it would be with 1 person single handedly incharge of the country telling her minions what to do rather than one person being poster boy or girl and having to wait weeks or months for some over paid suits to stop calling each other names and finalise something, i mean without MP's getting 100k + a year in wages, how much richer would the country be?!!!!

(British Government) <:gundge: < (Me) :headbang: :upyours: :sniper: :mp5:

This, my friends, is how not to introduce yourself to NSG.

*sigh*
As usual, a Tony Blair thread gets attacked by all these "illegal war" and "human rights" idiots.
Well, he and his administration started an illegal war and has continually abused human rights throughout his time in office. It is the major issue in British politics today - mainly because it is so deeply unpopular with the British public who did not want to go to war in Iraq period. And I've had it enough with this "human rights nonsense" nonsense - we are privileged to live in a democracy where, although standards have slipped, nobody will be penalised based on their religion, gender or sexuality; or be silenced in an attempt to prevent political opposition. Those are your human rights, and anyone who thinks that they are for idiots can go and live in North Korea - and then see how privileged we are to have them respected.

I don't exactly see how a war can be 'legal' and 'illegal'. I don't see any of you complaining about World War I.
It wasn't illegal. International law was not violated.

And I love it how you always neglect to mention wars like Kosova and Sierra Leone and Afghanistan. Why are these ignored? None of them directly affected us, so why aren't these wars deemed as 'illegal'?
Because they weren't illegal. International law was not violated.

Why is Iraq seen as 'controversial' and 'illegal' when it's clear as crystal; Saddam Hussein made it seem like he had WOMD, the Western governments got worried (quite rightly) about a genocidal Middle-Eastern dictator with nuclear weapons and so it led to a war. It's Hussein's own fault.
North Korea is run by a nuclear-armed genocidal dictator. Make that a North Korea is run by a nuclear-armed insane genocidal dictator who actually has WMDs and doesn't comply with UN requirements until it comes to his advantage. Are we at war with North Korea? No. It's all well and good stomping over every little pissant country that tries to develop WMDs, but there's no way that Iraq was as much as a danger as North Korea. Why then, are we not at war with North Korea? Because it was an illegal, unnecessary war, and the 'justification' of which was provided before any evidence was gathered. We fixed 'evidence' - not Hussein.

And what the media rarely mentions, as you all seem to be entirely influenced by it's 'facts', is that pre-Iraq War Israel was also threatened by nuclear missiles and so launched an attack to attempt to cripple Hussein's weapons.
And?

So, despite what you're led to believe, the "Hussein Has Nuclear Weapons" issue was not some government spin, but a rational deduction from the dictator's behaviour.
You don't go to war based on second-guesses. You go to war based on evidence. Hussein did not have nuclear weapons. The government told us that he did. Either they lied, exaggerated or fixed information, or they were hopelessly incompetent and failed to listen to the warning bells while they were ringing. And yes - like everything in this government - it was based on spin.

And finally, the whole ID and surveillance issue. Quite frankly, I don't see what you're worried about. The cameras are only outside, where people see you anyway. It's hardly like some 1984 indoor monitoring system.
People don't have tape recorders hidden behind their eyes. Do I want the government to know when and where I was? Absolutely not. CCTV is necessary in some places as a way of preventing crime, but it is not to be a camera on every corner.

And then ID cards. Are we as a nation so responsible and not taking liberty for granted that we need to object to this under some disguise of civil rights?
Corrected.

The Queen should tell Brown that hes not gettig the job as Prime Minister and run HER country herself. I mean, think how much better it would be with 1 person single handedly incharge of the country telling her minions what to do rather than one person being poster boy or girl and having to wait weeks or months for some over paid suits to stop calling each other names and finalise something, i mean without MP's getting 100k + a year in wages, how much richer would the country be?!!!!

(British Government) <:gundge: < (Me) :headbang: :upyours: :sniper: :mp5:
Not much, considering a multi billion pound budget.

The Tories had the recession to deal with, something that didn't happen under Blair granted, but when Major left office in 1997, New Labour inherited an extreamly strong economy, and could do nothing but grow for at least the next 5-10 years. It is well documented that Chancellor work and discions take a long time to show they full effect.It is of my opinion that Blair has little to nothing to do with the success of any domestic policy under the New Labour government.

The peace process in Northern Ireland is Major's legacy, not Blair's. It is his government's work that led up to the Good Friday agreement.

Major's support proved to key to convincing Bush to set up no-fly zones over Iraq.

Another of Major's idea was the Citizen's Charter. It has since been copied around the world and added to by the New Labour government.

With regards to economy:
What went wrong on Black Wednesday has very little to do with the Major's government and a whole lot more to do with that bastard Soros - who pretends to be enlightened philantropist with his ill-gotten wealth.

Had it not been for the policies of Major and Kenneth Clarke following the recession of the early 90s, then New Labour wouldn't have had such a strong economy to fund all their pet projects.

On top of that Major has more honnesty and integrety in his little finger than both Blair and Thatcher put together. Major was the best Prime Minister this country has seen in recent times.

It is of my opinion that Blair has little to nothing to do with the success of any domestic policy under the New Labour government.

The peace process in Northern Ireland is Major's legacy, not Blair's. It is his government's work that led up to the Good Friday agreement.

Major's support proved to key to convincing Bush to set up no-fly zones over Iraq.

Another of Major's idea was the Citizen's Charter. It has since been copied around the world and added to by the New Labour government.

With regards to economy:
What went wrong on Black Wednesday has very little to do with the Major's government and a whole lot more to do with that bastard Soros - who pretends to be enlightened philantropist with his ill-gotten wealth.

Had it not been for the policies of Major and Kenneth Clarke following the recession of the early 90s, then New Labour wouldn't have had such a strong economy to fund all their pet projects.

On top of that Major has more honnesty and integrety in his little finger than both Blair and Thatcher put together. Major was the best Prime Minister this country has seen in recent times.

Holy shit! You are pretty much spot on...except I do disagree with you on Major...he was a sop to the electorate.

If the Tories had entered another strong Thatcherite type candidate the Tories would no longer exist.

The Queen should tell Brown that hes not gettig the job as Prime Minister and run HER country herself. I mean, think how much better it would be with 1 person single handedly incharge of the country telling her minions what to do rather than one person being poster boy or girl and having to wait weeks or months for some over paid suits to stop calling each other names and finalise something, i mean without MP's getting 100k + a year in wages, how much richer would the country be?!!!!

(British Government) <:gundge: < (Me) :headbang: :upyours: :sniper: :mp5:

Um...'her' country??? Just that in itself is ample evidence of a serious disconnect between reality and your brain.

As long as mr cameron doesnt get in, i'm happy.

Guys a lying piece of trash, worse than most politicians!

Holy shit! You are pretty much spot on...except I do disagree with you on Major...he was a sop to the electorate.

If the Tories had entered another strong Thatcherite type candidate the Tories would no longer exist.Haha, I thought I was going to get ripped to pieces for supporting Major. It's nothing something that tends to be very popular.

However, in certain respects I would indeed prefer a sop to an autocrat for a Prime Minister. Consenus is very rarely a bad thing.

You obviously haven't read Wicked.

I would advise that you do, it's first rate. And follow it up with Son of a Witch.

So after reading Wicked you must choose to follow a single interpretation of a fictional story religiously and not make any other pop culture references to any other version of the story? What is this book the bible?

Oh, and I didn't like that book at all. I enjoyed the concept but the writing was boring. Son of a Witch was horrible. I read about 1/4 of it.




So who is Gordon Brown in terms of his stances on everything. Is he competant?

So who is Gordon Brown in terms of his stances on everything. Is he competant?

Brown's good. I like him. He's spent the last 10 years managing a good economy, and he's, I imagine, less likely than Blair to just throw money at something to try and fix it.

Brown is evil, and no doubt we will wake up tommorow and find that all taxes have been put up and that inheritance tax will be 90%..
he also has absolutely no personality. i think that as a Scotsman he can go and be the scottish leader and we should have a general election, then again, pretty Cameron isn't too good either.
bring back the monster raving loony party i say!

Brown is evil, and no doubt we will wake up tommorow and find that all taxes have been put up and that inheritance tax will be 90%..

I know that they can get things through Parliament fairly quickly, but a new budget overnight when we don't even have a Chancellor?

I would be very surprised.

he also has absolutely no personality.

Sure he does. A dour one.

i think that as a Scotsman he can go and be the scottish leader and we should have a general election, then again, pretty Cameron isn't too good either.

Does this mean that, as an Englisher, Cameron would only get to rule England, and would leave the rest of us alone? Sounds like a good plan to me. The rest of us don't want him, you in England can keep him.

bring back the monster raving loony party i say!

I wasn't aware they'd gone anywhere...

Haha, I thought I was going to get ripped to pieces for supporting Major. It's nothing something that tends to be very popular.

However, in certain respects I would indeed prefer a sop to an autocrat for a Prime Minister. Consenus is very rarely a bad thing.

LOL nah...even now Major cannot be viewed as nothing more than a underwear wearing geek...;)

It depends...sometimes you need strength to build consensus....thats what the Thatch did....then she abolished it! LOLOL

So who did Tony name as his heir and successor? Is there any question over the throne? I hope those damn Lancasters aren't going to start shit again. They can call it "roses" if they want, it's still just shit.

I'm sure you've all seen this before, but for those who haven't:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dOszwPVCNo

Brown is evil, and no doubt we will wake up tommorow and find that all taxes have been put up and that inheritance tax will be 90%..
Which would be quite a feat considering we don't have a budget until April.

he also has absolutely no personality.
And? I don't mind. As long as he's good at his job, I couldn't care less about his personality.

i think that as a Scotsman he can go and be the scottish leader and we should have a general election,
Why can't a Scot be Prime Minister of the UK if she/he has the support of Parliament?

then again, pretty Cameron isn't too good either.
Well, at least we agree on one thing.

bring back the monster raving loony party i say!
They've never been in government...

Brown's good. I like him. He's spent the last 10 years managing a good economy, and he's, I imagine, less likely than Blair to just throw money at something to try and fix it.

Brown's bad. I hate him. He raised my taxes and called it a cut, the bastard.

Brown's bad. I hate him. He raised my taxes and called it a cut, the bastard.

Wow. How'd he pull that off?

Wow. How'd he pull that off?
Combined the 10% and the 22% band into a single 20% band. He's a sneaky little bugger.

Brown's bad. I hate him. He raised my taxes and called it a cut, the bastard.

So instead of paying a maximum of £223/annum you pay a maximum of £446/annum, depending on your income.

Any sensible person doesn't pay tax, anyway.

Combined the 10% and the 22% band into a single 20% band. He's a sneaky little bugger.

That is sneaky… but surely people must have seen right through it?

Good riddance.

Blair disgraced himself and his country by being lackey and lapdog to George bush.

Also presided over some very disgusting new laws which Britain should be ashamed of, like the anti-hunting and anti-weapons swill.

Maybe Gordon Brown will be better, maybe not, but at least the sniveling fink coward is gone.

We need a Patriotic leader, someone looking out for Britain. Make us world police again and make American our Lapdog... we also need more nukes :gundge:.
I think Tony Blare did alright and the fact he gets yelled at and not much has been said about George Bush for invading Irak, it would have been invaded anyway and atleast now Sudam isn't encharge.

I don't have an opinion on Brown yet but I am sure I will by next time this week.. So far he doesn't seem to be for anything or against much but just differs on anything to do with Tony Blare..

Hwyl..

We need a Patriotic leader, someone looking out for Britain. Make us world police again and make America our Lapdog... we also need more nukes :gundge:.
I think Tony Blair did alright and the fact he gets yelled at and not much has been said about George Bush for invading Iraq, it would have been invaded anyway and atleast now Saddam isn't in charge.

I don't have an opinion on Brown yet but I am sure I will by next time this week.. So far he doesn't seem to be for anything or against much but just differs on anything to do with Tony Blair..

Hwyl..

Learn to spell the names of the key players perhaps before posting such things

Ya, sorry.. Erm.. *flees*

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6234048.stm some stuff on Brown, found it interesting.. sorry if I splet anything wrong...:headbang:

...And finally, the whole ID and surveillance issue. Quite frankly, I don't see what you're worried about. The cameras are only outside, where people see you anyway...

Was anyone else expecting this to continue with "We should barcode everyone, then we could really keep track of their movements."?

Hooray! Not that Brown, with over 100 tax rises, is likely to be any better as a statesman, but at least I don't have the urge to break the TV watching him.

alright, could someone please explain to me what's the whole hype about ID cards. i mean i've been living in england for 2 years and where i come from (romania) we've always had ID cards. i really dont understand how you would use them to monitor population or anything - the only way i can imagine you would do that is if you had subway style checkpoints in which you had to introduce your card to get past, but thats too far fetched even for Orwell (i presume).

look at it this way: you can go drinking when of legal age (these would be quite a bit harder to forge than other forms of ID) and not need to carry a driver's licence or passport or whatnot with you - stuff you wouldn't like to loose when pissed drunk.

alright, could someone please explain to me what's the whole hype about ID cards. i mean i've been living in england for 2 years and where i come from (romania) we've always had ID cards. i really dont understand how you would use them to monitor population or anything - the only way i can imagine you would do that is if you had subway style checkpoints in which you had to introduce your card to get past, but thats too far fetched even for Orwell (i presume).

look at it this way: you can go drinking when of legal age (these would be quite a bit harder to forge than other forms of ID) and not need to carry a driver's licence or passport or whatnot with you - stuff you wouldn't like to loose when pissed drunk.

EU immigrant? TBC has a one sentiment for you; begone, abomination!

worry not... i've been here before romania was in the EU, studied at 6th form and going back to uni there to read politics :)

Tony Blair, for all his faults, has compassion behind his eyes. Gordon Brown cares for only one person: Gordon Brown.

alright, could someone please explain to me what's the whole hype about ID cards. i mean i've been living in england for 2 years and where i come from (romania) we've always had ID cards. i really dont understand how you would use them to monitor population or anything - the only way i can imagine you would do that is if you had subway style checkpoints in which you had to introduce your card to get past, but thats too far fetched even for Orwell (i presume).

look at it this way: you can go drinking when of legal age (these would be quite a bit harder to forge than other forms of ID) and not need to carry a driver's licence or passport or whatnot with you - stuff you wouldn't like to loose when pissed drunk.

Well, not to be rude about it, but Romania has historically hardly been a shining beacon of freedom and democracy.

Tony Blair, for all his faults, has compassion behind his eyes. Gordon Brown cares for only one person: Gordon Brown.

I'd dispute that greatly. If Robin Cook's memoirs are to be believed, he didn't give a flying fuck about the Palestinian's killed so regularly in Gaza throughout his tenure, despite appearing on the verge of tears at the news of Israeli deaths.

Tony Blair is no less self-absorbed than either Cameron, or Brown. His pre-occupation with a legacy, and the ensueing shameful EU reform treaty, when he ought to have focused upon repairing the damage he has wrought to the UK, demonstrates as much.

nor did i ever said it was (and i'm not even going to get into historical reasons for this because i myself do not believe there is any honour left to defend), but that doesn't exactly answer my question of how you think ID cards could possibly be so damaging to a citezen's civil rights.

nor did i ever said it was (and i'm not even going to get into historical reasons for this because i myself do not believe there is any honour left to defend), but that doesn't exactly answer my question of how you think ID cards could possibly be so damaging to a citezen's civil rights.

My main concern isn't arguing against them, it's that nobody has thus far made a satisfactory argument for them.

i'm guessing then that a uniform/universal proof of identity system supervised centrally (which consequently makes the government directly responsible of identity theft cases) is not sufficient? understandable from the historical point of view, but practicality has shown otherwise in countries using such a system. as far as our system is concerned, the ID cards are little more than portable extensions of birth certificates, also containing the address of residence on them. they are required and accepted as sufficient proof of evidence in any formal procedures.

nor did i ever said it was (and i'm not even going to get into historical reasons for this because i myself do not believe there is any honour left to defend), but that doesn't exactly answer my question of how you think ID cards could possibly be so damaging to a citezen's civil rights.

I think the main reason is because the proponents of the scheme aren't giving any proper arguements for. Or the arguements they give are rubbish. Nor do they give a cost for the scheme, or the final scope of the scheme.

i'm guessing then that a uniform/universal proof of identity system supervised centrally (which consequently makes the government directly responsible of identity theft cases) is not sufficient? understandable from the historical point of view, but practicality has shown otherwise in countries using such a system. as far as our system is concerned, the ID cards are little more than portable extensions of birth certificates, also containing the address of residence on them. they are required and accepted as sufficient proof of evidence in any formal procedures.

I have something like that already. It's a driver's license ;)

i'm guessing then that a uniform/universal proof of identity system supervised centrally (which consequently makes the government directly responsible of identity theft cases) is not sufficient? understandable from the historical point of view, but practicality has shown otherwise in countries using such a system. as far as our system is concerned, the ID cards are little more than portable extensions of birth certificates, also containing the address of residence on them. they are required and accepted as sufficient proof of evidence in any formal procedures.

Passports, drivers licences, etc already play that role

i've noticed... even bank letters are accepted as proof of identity. but what about people who do not have them (driver's licence and passport)? i mean i suppose it could be argued that both of them together would just about cover the whole population, but the beaurocratic mess of keeping so many separate databases of people is surely both hard and expensive to sustain and impractical.

however i was far more interested in the whole civil rights argument against them. i simply cannot understand how that works, if someone would enlighten me:)

I'm pretty sure that there isn't a major civil rights argument being waged against them...

i've noticed... even bank letters are accepted as proof of identity. but what about people who do not have them (driver's licence and passport)? i mean i suppose it could be argued that both of them together would just about cover the whole population, but the beaurocratic mess of keeping so many separate databases of people is surely both hard and expensive to sustain and impractical.

however i was far more interested in the whole civil rights argument against them. i simply cannot understand how that works, if someone would enlighten me:)

Its gonna cost people to get ID cards so why not just get a passport instead? Dual purpose and all that

Its more the fact that the Govt. would be forcing us to get ID cards. And I for one have something against the govt. forcing us to do things for no good reason.

I'm pretty sure that there isn't a major civil rights argument being waged against them...

okay i guess i might have had a disproportionate perception of that argument... good to know there is still some common sense going round :p

as for the dual purpose thing with passports, i always had the impression that passports are used for travelling abroad and as such people who don't, would have no use for them and their populace covering wouldn't be that great.

and the forcing bit, reveals the attitudes behind the whole civil rights argument, but... organising people databases for such purposes as voters' registers (for example) are far better reasons those behind banning smoking in pubs in which you don't HAVE to go in (for example).

i've noticed... even bank letters are accepted as proof of identity. but what about people who do not have them (driver's licence and passport)?

What about them? Maybe I'm just be hopelessly naive. But if they don't have one or the other, why would they need an ID card?

i mean i suppose it could be argued that both of them together would just about cover the whole population, but the beaurocratic mess of keeping so many separate databases of people is surely both hard and expensive to sustain and impractical.

Not really. As I understand it, it is much easier to maintain many smaller databases for limited things, than it is the create and maintain a huge database for myriad different things.

however i was far more interested in the whole civil rights argument against them. i simply cannot understand how that works, if someone would enlighten me:)

Probably the best place to go would be:

http://www.no2id.net

To his credit, Blair is the first fascist leader in history to voluntarily step down.

Edit: I forgot Salazar, but he only stepped down due to health reasons.

well taking into account the bias of the source i still have to admit that the extent and uses of the ID card system proposed for the UK is quite Orwellian... and while it may not break civil rights per see it can easily facilitate that... my apologies for being so daft about it:)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e6/Finch-Dominic.jpg
Does anyone see the resemblance?

Also, have you heard the guy speak in public, I can't quite put my finger on it, but he sounds like a familiar scot-accent fictional British dictator, possibly Orwellian.

When will the British finally do something sensible..and vote for Boris Johnson as PM?

When will the British finally do something sensible..and vote for Boris Johnson as PM?
Isn't Tory leader, so he can't be PM.

When will the British finally do something sensible..and vote for Boris Johnson as PM?

Umm coz thats not the way it works?

i think an illegal war and the avoidable deaths of thousands are WAY to big to be put aside in the appreciation of whatever else the guy's done. seriously unforgivable i'd say.

Personally i liked saddam, he was our backdoor doorstop.

He hated everyone including bin laden.

The war was a dumb idea but saddam would have killed more than we ever could in time.

Remember its mainly now muslim on muslim violence ("extremist" on innocents for the mostpart), and thats caused by ignorance and stupidity.

Well thing thing is, Blair became so hated because of Iraq and perceived subservience to the US that his Iraq legacy will dominate the Labor policy, despite his left policies such as the minimum wage, welfare, national health care and the like have been forgotten, which I think is a shame because personally I am a bit of a fan of the 'Third Way'. Apparently I have Brown will pretty much be the same centre-left politics as Blair, but possibly a little more to the left than Blair - mainly due to the primary power base (far-left factions in the labor party and trade unions) are pushing on issues such as taxing private equity and a range of other issues which may pull him to the left further. Furthermore it has perceived that Blair's alliance with Bush was partisan when it wasn't really, so Brown will have to break that image because he himself is a big fan of the Atlantic relationship. So he will have to distance himself from the failures of Iraq and focus on domestic issues more, and stress a non-partisan US-Britain relationship, regardless of whose in power at either end.

When will the British finally do something sensible..and vote for Boris Johnson as PM?

1. Whilst he is hilariously inept, he is still inept.
2. He's an arsehole. A funny arsehole. But an arsehole nonetheless.
3. He's a liar. A humorous liar, but still very much a great big liar.

Do you see a pattern? He's funny to talk to and read about, but he's the last person to put at the helm of Britain.

29 hours and 57 minutes have now passed since Gordon Brown went and visited the Queen in order to be 'invited to form a new government'.

Wow!

(that was sarcasm by the way)

The best thing about getting a new Prime Minister is that, especially as the next general election is only in six months, he (or she!) will be keen to become very popular with the public very quickly and therefore do whatever we tell them.

An added bonus is that the departing PM can do all the things he thinks he should do without having to fear the wrath of the public in the last three days of his term.

At least one of the above is good, I'm not sure which - either the PM deciding for himself or doing what the public wants.

The best thing about getting a new Prime Minister is that, especially as the next general election is only in six months, he (or she!) will be keen to become very popular with the public very quickly and therefore do whatever we tell them.

An added bonus is that the departing PM can do all the things he thinks he should do without having to fear the wrath of the public in the last three days of his term.

At least one of the above is good, I'm not sure which - either the PM deciding for himself or doing what the public wants.
The next election will probably in '09. I doubt Brown will want an election when the polls are so close, it's probably too much of a gamble.

The best thing about getting a new Prime Minister is that, especially as the next general election is only in six months, he (or she!) will be keen to become very popular with the public very quickly and therefore do whatever we tell them.

6 months? Only if Brown calls one, otherwise it'll probably be 2009 (or even 2010, if he holds out for the full five year term)

6 months? Only if Brown calls one, otherwise it'll probably be 2009 (or even 2010, if he holds out for the full five year term)

Oh OK, 6 months was what I'd heard