NationStates Jolt Archive

Did you do a degree at university?

Did you, like me, find it was a total waste of time and money?

I came from a poor, working class background and was sold 'the dream'. Middle class education, middle class career, middle class income, middle class life.

It's not what I got though. And I is reasonably shure it ain't becase I kan't spell proper.

I didn't get anything at university that I couldn't have had in my pre-university life. Perhaps it's because I come from a big city rather than 'little-bloody-nowhere-on-the-wold' that I just didn't think university was the be all and end all of great advances in social life. So I discount the social aspects of university - I could have had that in my home town.

That leaves only the career-advancing & financial aspects of study to consider.

I got a solid 2:1 in law (Law with legal practice - by the end of my course I could ably draft wills and do all the documentation relating to buying and selling houses). I had a specialism in international taxation. I represented people before the local employment tribunals. I did voluntary work at the local citizen's advice bureau. I worked in bars, restaurants, offices and supermarkets to support myself. I went to all the careers fairs and took careers advice. In short, I did everything I was supposed to do.

But to no avail.

I don't know why, but law firms just weren't interested in what I was offering.

Maybe it was the fact there were thousands upon thousands of law grads.

Maybe it was the fact there were legions of graduates generally.

Maybe it was the shocking levels of nepotism within the legal profession (I heard stories from friends who went into daddy's law firm. Or uncle's law firm. Even witnessed it with my own eyes once or twice).

Maybe it was just that they didn't want someone from a poor, working class background in their midst.

But, whatever reason, it didn't matter. I graduated with a mountain of debt and, I realised, no job prospects in law.

I would have been better off taking the example of many of my contemporaries: staying on the dole or working in a dead end job, smoking weed, getting drunk and living with my parents until my mid-thirties.

One day, I woke up and saw sense. Dropped my pretensions to getting a job in law (my law degree has been of no value to me since the day I graduated ten or so years ago) and became a journalist.

Then I emigrated to somewhere with a sunnier climate and cheaper house prices as someone suggested earlier. There's no tax either.

And I've never looked back.

My advice, based on my experience: avoid university, find a trade, emigrate from Britain to avoid punitive taxes. It's the only logical choice.

What has been your experience?

I'm doing one degree whilst biding my time before reapplying to my original degree choice. The real kicker? If I'd got onto the original choice I could have completed this entire degree in one extra year, as opposed to 3.

i doubt you'd have got a job as a journalist without a degree.

having said that, university is far too bloody expensive. i want to know what my ten grand a year was spent on, cuz it can't have been the lecturers. 4 hours tuition a week does not cost that much.

I'm doing one degree whilst biding my time before reapplying to my original degree choice. The real kicker? If I'd got onto the original choice I could have completed this entire degree in one extra year, as opposed to 3.


Ohhhh ... that's harsh. I know a couple of people that dropped out to do re-sits and things. It's a tough option. I hope it goes well with you in the future.

All the best

Habeas

I am doing a job where they do not hire non grads and moving into a position where they do not allow non MA's or better

I love both focuses of my job right now and my degree's (all 4) were worth every penny I spent on them

(I am a network admin and teaching 2 graduate courses right now at the uni)

i doubt you'd have got a job as a journalist without a degree.



Then you doubt wrongly. Journalism in the UK has traditionally been the job of choice for bright, working class school leavers (age 16).

I've known plenty of journalists working without degrees.

I'm hearing that story from quite a few people. Since I'm edging towards the end of my degree (dual degree in Business Management and Economics), I'm quite interested.

My take on the whole thing is to get consistently better marks than most people, get into the Honours Program and take it from there.

Then you doubt wrongly. Journalism in the UK has traditionally been the job of choice for bright, working class school leavers (age 16).

I've known plenty of journalists working without degrees.

furry muff.

Allah has instructed me to pursue a career in Software Architecture, so I will continue to attend my university until I attain a degree, as per his divine plan. If Allah wills it, it cannot be a waste.

I haven't completed my course (i've even managed to add an extra year to it through illness) but i'm willing to bet i'll get a job at the end of it. Doctors have pretty good employment prospects

I've done okay with mine, but there are plenty of people who have the same degree who regularly ask the question "would you like fries with that?" A Fine Arts graduate degree is not for the faint of heart.

Edit: Let me add, I spent plenty of time in the university of life before going to college--college was easier and I'm making more money as a result.

My degree, while time consuming, won't cost me a krona... so, I can't really say anything about the monetary aspect. I don't regret the time, though, I wish it were a little longer still...

I'm hearing that story from quite a few people. Since I'm edging towards the end of my degree (dual degree in Business Management and Economics), I'm quite interested.

My take on the whole thing is to get consistently better marks than most people, get into the Honours Program and take it from there.

Thanks for the comments.

My, personal, view is that experience counts for a hell of a lot. I realise this may be a little presumptuous of me, but I'd recommend that you get some practical experience in your field. Demonstrate to future employers that you can take problems away from them, make their lives easier and, best of all, create value for their operations in whatever way that may be.

Good luck.

All the best

Habeas

I've done okay with mine, but there are plenty of people who have the same degree who regularly ask the question "would you like fries with that?" A Fine Arts graduate degree is not for the faint of heart.

Edit: Let me add, I spent plenty of time in the university of life before going to college--college was easier and I'm making more money as a result.

I have a lot of respect people who can do an arts degree. It seems like so much work with so much risk at the end

I didn't get anything at university that I couldn't have had in my pre-university life. Perhaps it's because I come from a big city rather than 'little-bloody-nowhere-on-the-wold' that I just didn't think university was the be all and end all of great advances in social life. So I discount the social aspects of university - I could have had that in my home town.

That leaves only the career-advancing & financial aspects of study to consider.Studying for the sake of an interest in the field wasn't an option? Just social or career/money?
Well, ok, if you went with "law" perhaps not.. but still..

Then I emigrated to somewhere with a sunnier climate and cheaper house prices as someone suggested earlier. Sounds like a good idea.

What has been your experience?I thoroughly enjoy learning new things. For me studying at university is not a means, but a goal in itself. If I could afford to, I'd probably continue studying till the end of my days. It's not like there aren't enough interesting subjects to cover.

If you mean "was the degree a waste because you don't have the job you trained for" then yes, my degree was a waste. If perhaps you mean "was the degree just a plain waste of time" then no. Having a degree proved that I was hard working and adaptable and has subsequently moved me in a direction that I wouldn't even have considered.

My degree: Modern and Contemporary History and Politics.
My profession: Dental Technician.

There's no link between the two, but having one made it easier to get onto the other. If you have a chance, go to uni. Have fun, do the work, and at the end of the day don't just limit yourself looking for what you're trained in, a degree opens more options than just that.

Studying for the sake of an interest in the field wasn't an option? Just social or career/money?
Well, ok, if you went with "law" perhaps not.. but still..

Sounds like a good idea.

I thoroughly enjoy learning new things. For me studying at university is not a means, but a goal in itself. If I could afford to, I'd probably continue studying till the end of my days. It's not like there aren't enough interesting subjects to cover.

Agree 100 percent

I loved learning and helping others learn that I am turning my life's focus that way

Studying for the sake of an interest in the field wasn't an option? Just social or career/money?
Well, ok, if you went with "law" perhaps not.. but still..

Sounds like a good idea.

I thoroughly enjoy learning new things. For me studying at university is not a means, but a goal in itself. If I could afford to, I'd probably continue studying till the end of my days. It's not like there aren't enough interesting subjects to cover.

Thanks for the excellent post.

"Studying for the sake of an interest in the field wasn't an option? Just social or career/money?"
What can I say? I was 18. I was an idiot. I just saw the career advancing part of it. If I could do it again I wouldn't do law. I would have studied something I find intrinsically interesting like politics, economics or womanising :fluffle:

I enjoy learning stuff too. If I was to win the lottery, I'd probably become a perpetual student. But then, I'd realise an important point - it's a waste of money. But then I wouldn't care because I'd be studying for the sake of learning stuff and not being dependent upon the outcome of getting a good degree.

Cheers

HC

Maybe it was just that they didn't want someone from a poor, working class background in their midst.



Bingo!

Despite the myth, it is very difficult to move between clases up or down (in both the UK and US). It doesn't matter how much money you make/have. If you dont dress like the other class, talk like them, have the same manerisms as them, have the same formative experiences as them, run in the same social circles as them, and share their world view, you will never be fully accepted by them. Your children probably will (having grown up among them). But you never will.

Bingo!

Despite the myth, it is very difficult to move between clases up or down (in both the UK and US). It doesn't matter how much money you make/have. If you dont dress like the other class, talk like them, have the same manerisms as them, have the same formative experiences as them, run in the same social circles as them, and share their world view, you will never be fully accepted by them. Your children probably will (having grown up among them). But you never will.

I would disagree with your opinion on this. One of the things I like most about university life is how many new people you meet with differing opinions, outlooks on life, etc.

Bingo! Despite the myth, it is very difficult to move between clases up or down (in both the UK and US).


I gotta admit that, in my younger (and more naive?) years, I thought that all this talk of a vast 'class-based conspiracy' was just that: 'talk'.

Then one day I saw it with my own eyes.

A law school colleague 'L' was very bright but very lazy and a bit of a whiner. He also wouldn't accept responsibility for his own fate - he'd get low marks and bitch about it despite the fact he'd done little or no study then leached off me.

Anywho ... one day ...


L finds out that there are jobs for law graduates in his hometown. He asks me to read over his CV ('resume'). It's five pages long, badly spaced, rambling and largely incoherent. I point all this out to him. And he says 'yeah, I know (!) but I know they [the law firm recruiters] will read it out of respect for my dad". His dad was a well known name in local legal circles owing to his position as the founder and head of a well-regarded local law firm and as a local judge.

Anywho ... (2) ... another day ...

A temporary, one-year, legal position crops up at the law firm headed by L's dad. It's a very valuable position because this kind of thing can lead to being offered a two year training contract - completion is mandatory if you want to be a lawyer in the UK.

So, lo and behold, L applies for the job. Funnily enough, he gets called for interview and pops by the office. I find out all this from L afterwards, in case you're wondering...

Anywho ... (2) ... continued ...

Our hero (anti-hero?), L is sitting in the waiting room waiting for his interview when, co-incidentally, along strolls L's dad - the man who owns the firm. L's dad promptly pops his head around the door of the interview room WHILE ANOTHER CANDIDATE IS BEING INTERVIEWED FOR THE JOB and says to the interviewer (his employee):

"Do you mind interviewing my son once you're done here?'

You may be terribly surprised to learn that L got the one-year temporary position. You may also be further astonished when you learn that L got a training contract in his father's 'circuit' i.e. the geographic area where the father heard cases as a judge. Last I heard, L was well on the way to becoming a lawyer.

I wouldn't trust him to tie my shoe-laces, let alone represent me.

L finds out that there are jobs for law graduates in his hometown. He asks me to read over his CV ('resume'). It's five pages long, badly spaced, rambling and largely incoherent. I point all this out to him. And he says 'yeah, I know (!) but I know they [the law firm recruiters] will read it out of respect for my dad". His dad was a well known name in local legal circles owing to his position as the founder and head of a well-regarded local law firm and as a local judge.



That isn't so much an issue of class however as an issue with someone using a connection to their advantage. I've seen the same thing with people trying to get apprenticeships, etc

My, personal, view is that experience counts for a hell of a lot. I realise this may be a little presumptuous of me, but I'd recommend that you get some practical experience in your field. Demonstrate to future employers that you can take problems away from them, make their lives easier and, best of all, create value for their operations in whatever way that may be.
Yeah, I was actually quite lucky recently: one of my lecturers asked me to do a project for the City Council after he apparently really liked one of my reports I did for an assignment. I'm getting paid and it'll be great to put on CV.

The only thing is that really I should be ideologically opposed to working for government, but since it's a cost-benefit analysis of different ways for government to manage things, maybe I'm actually doing something good. :p

Education is never a waste of time and money.

That isn't so much an issue of class however as an issue with someone using a connection to their advantage. I've seen the same thing with people trying to get apprenticeships, etc


I see where you're coming from and I'd add that I think it's how 'class' perpetuates itself. It's just a case of someone using their connections ... but if that person is a middle class lawyer and he contacts his middle class dad's lawyer friends and they in turn use their middle class connections for their middle class kids...

Well, put it this way, I don't think it leaves a lot of room for those who are non middle class...

Education is never a waste of time and money.

Thank you for your well reasoned and thought out opinion backed up with lots of sound argument and examples from your practical experience.

By the way, I like FLUFFY BUNNIES!!!

I'm still in high school (well, it's summer vacation now). Next year is my last year in high school, and I think I'm going to do chemical engineering at the University of South Florida. That's what I want to do, at least.

I don't know why, but law firms just weren't interested in what I was offering.

Maybe it was the fact there were thousands upon thousands of law grads.

Maybe it was the fact there were legions of graduates generally.

Maybe it was the shocking levels of nepotism within the legal profession (I heard stories from friends who went into daddy's law firm. Or uncle's law firm. Even witnessed it with my own eyes once or twice).

Maybe it was just that they didn't want someone from a poor, working class background in their midst.

Maybe it was you. :eek:

Maybe it was your attitude. :eek:

Yeah, I was actually quite lucky recently: one of my lecturers asked me to do a project for the City Council after he apparently really liked one of my reports I did for an assignment. I'm getting paid and it'll be great to put on CV.

Nice one! A good example of someone being well-rewarded for a job well-done. Heartens the soul it does. Make the best of this great opportunity that you've earned!


The only thing is that really I should be ideologically opposed to working for government, but since it's a cost-benefit analysis of different ways for government to manage things, maybe I'm actually doing something good. :p

Ahhhh, ya gotta love that backwards rationalisation ;)

I see where you're coming from and I'd add that I think it's how 'class' perpetuates itself. It's just a case of someone using their connections ... but if that person is a middle class lawyer and he contacts his middle class dad's lawyer friends and they in turn use their middle class connections for their middle class kids...

Well, put it this way, I don't think it leaves a lot of room for those who are non middle class...

Yes i'll agree with the idea that the classes tend to help their own due to perpetuation by this method but I don't think it is a widespread occurence for people to be held back specifically due to bias against their background. I don't believe the statement :

"If you dont dress like the other class, talk like them, have the same manerisms as them, have the same formative experiences as them, run in the same social circles as them, and share their world view, you will never be fully accepted by them"

I'm still in high school (well, it's summer vacation now). Next year is my last year in high school, and I think I'm going to do chemical engineering at the University of South Florida. That's what I want to do, at least.

Hope it all works out well for you. Make sure you get lots of practical experience.

I wish you all the best

Cheers

HC

Technically my degree is a total waste. The job I'm doing now I could have done before the degree, and probably half the people I work for never went to college, just did what I do until they moved up.

But I don't care. The degree was for me and I'm glad I got it. I'm never going to be rich (or, I'll be very rich, but that's not as likely), but I like what I do and I like what I learned, so it works. I could stand to make a little more money, because poverty sucks ass, but other than that, I dig it.

It's an AA in Music, BA in Film and Digital Media and graduate work in Playwrighting.

Education is never a waste of time and money.

We don't agree on much, but when we do... :D

Education is never a waste of time and money.

.....if your main aim is to gain more and more knowledge. On the other hand if your aim is to make as much money as possible then it could well be a waste of time and money

Load of poop.

Doing a computing degree.

Havn't learnt anything useful to what i wish to do, and when something in my "field" as such, comes up, I already know it.

Boring me so much im sick of computers and looking at other avenues.

So technically im just going out alot and drinking...

Did you do a degree at university?

Did you, like me, find it was a total waste of time and money?

I came from a poor, working class background and was sold 'the dream'. Middle class education, middle class career, middle class income, middle class life.

It's not what I got though. And I is reasonably shure it ain't becase I kan't spell proper.

I didn't get anything at university that I couldn't have had in my pre-university life. Perhaps it's because I come from a big city rather than 'little-bloody-nowhere-on-the-wold' that I just didn't think university was the be all and end all of great advances in social life. So I discount the social aspects of university - I could have had that in my home town.

That leaves only the career-advancing & financial aspects of study to consider.

I got a solid 2:1 in law (Law with legal practice - by the end of my course I could ably draft wills and do all the documentation relating to buying and selling houses). I had a specialism in international taxation. I represented people before the local employment tribunals. I did voluntary work at the local citizen's advice bureau. I worked in bars, restaurants, offices and supermarkets to support myself. I went to all the careers fairs and took careers advice. In short, I did everything I was supposed to do.

But to no avail.

I don't know why, but law firms just weren't interested in what I was offering.

Maybe it was the fact there were thousands upon thousands of law grads.

Maybe it was the fact there were legions of graduates generally.

Maybe it was the shocking levels of nepotism within the legal profession (I heard stories from friends who went into daddy's law firm. Or uncle's law firm. Even witnessed it with my own eyes once or twice).

Maybe it was just that they didn't want someone from a poor, working class background in their midst.

But, whatever reason, it didn't matter. I graduated with a mountain of debt and, I realised, no job prospects in law.

I would have been better off taking the example of many of my contemporaries: staying on the dole or working in a dead end job, smoking weed, getting drunk and living with my parents until my mid-thirties.

One day, I woke up and saw sense. Dropped my pretensions to getting a job in law (my law degree has been of no value to me since the day I graduated ten or so years ago) and became a journalist.

Then I emigrated to somewhere with a sunnier climate and cheaper house prices as someone suggested earlier. There's no tax either.

And I've never looked back.

My advice, based on my experience: avoid university, find a trade, emigrate from Britain to avoid punitive taxes. It's the only logical choice.

What has been your experience?

Can I ask which university you went to? I ask because I know that, in certain types of recruitment, that is an issue. A friend of mine is a post-graduate studies consultant for the University of Aston (i.e. she deals with people applying for postgraduate courses) and she has told me that one of the biggest factors in a successful application is the university the applicant attend when completing their Bachelors degree. It could quite possibly be the same in the world of employment.

In regards to my experiences...well, I am in the second year of a Medieval and Modern History degree, currently looking at a high 2:1, low First. I am quite aware that it is very unlikely that I am going to find work in a history related field: I was aware of that when I decided to do History instead of Law, which was the other subject I was interested in pursuing. The reason I wanted to go to university was to expand my mental horizons and study a subject I love. That I have done and am doing currently. Thus, I consider my degree to be worth every penny and minute I have put into it.

Yes i'll agree with the idea that the classes tend to help their own due to perpetuation by this method but I don't think it is a widespread occurence for people to be held back specifically due to bias against their background. I don't believe the statement :

"If you dont dress like the other class, talk like them, have the same manerisms as them, have the same formative experiences as them, run in the same social circles as them, and share their world view, you will never be fully accepted by them"


I believe the quoted statement for these reasons:

1) it stands to reason that you (or I) will be more accepted by a social grouping if you are more like them than not like them. I'm sure there are lots of famous psychology experiments to back this up. The one I'd offer is when they had an actor jogging across a field who promptly pretended to sprain his ankle and start calling for help. The experiment was done in Manchester (a UK city). The actor was far more likely to receive help/sympathy/comfort if he was wearing a Manchester United Football shirt than a Liverpool Football Club (a famous rival team) shirt. Proving that people are much more likely to accept those more like them than those who are not. And if people are willing to discriminate on something as superficial as support for a given football team, then how much more likely are they willing to discriminate on the basis of something like social class?

2) I believe that this method of perpetuation - which by definition promotes/advances the interest of a given group - inherently, and also by definition, excludes those of a different group, whether conciously or not. If there are 100 jobs available in profession X and 95% of those are filled by nepotistic methods then that's 95% of the profession not available to outsiders.

Can I ask which university you went to? ... A friend of mine is a post-graduate studies consultant for the University of Aston (i.e. she deals with people applying for postgraduate courses) and she has told me that one of the biggest factors in a successful application is the university the applicant attend when completing their Bachelors degree. It could quite possibly be the same in the world of employment...



Hmmm... interesting. Not something I'd ever considered. As far as I am aware, my University never had any particular stigma attached to it and was always well regarded. Maybe that's my erroneous impression.

Anywho...

University of Northumbria at Newcastle

I believe the quoted statement for these reasons:

1) it stands to reason that you (or I) will be more accepted by a social grouping if you are more like them than not like them. I'm sure there are lots of famous psychology experiments to back this up. The one I'd offer is when they had an actor jogging across a field who promptly pretended to sprain his ankle and start calling for help. The experiment was done in Manchester (a UK city). The actor was far more likely to receive help/sympathy/comfort if he was wearing a Manchester United Football shirt than a Liverpool Football Club (a famous rival team) shirt. Proving that people are much more likely to accept those more like them than those who are not. And if people are willing to discriminate on something as superficial as support for a given football team, then how much more likely are they willing to discriminate on the basis of something like social class?

2) I believe that this method of perpetuation - which by definition promotes/advances the interest of a given group - inherently, and also by definition, excludes those of a different group, whether conciously or not. If there are 100 jobs available in profession X and 95% of those are filled by nepotistic methods then that's 95% of the profession not available to outsiders.

I completely agree with the method of perpetuation but the belief that the middle classes intentionally keep the working classes down is one I don't agree with. The main problem I had with the quote I gave was the use of "you will never be fully accepted". That implies a conscious effort not to accept those from other classes. There may be unintentional barriers to acceptance due to life circumstances but these can be overcome.

Thank you for your well reasoned and thought out opinion backed up with lots of sound argument and examples from your practical experience.

By the way, I like FLUFFY BUNNIES!!!

Well, in my 64 years of life I have never met a person whose education was "a waste of time and money." I have met people who may have chosen the wrong degree, but they learned a lot while in school and what they learned helped them in the career they chose.

I don't think my undergraduate degree helped me all that much but I do know that it helped me get at least one very important promotion. My graduate degree is in Occupational and Adult Education and has absolutely nothing to do with my current job as an Aircraft Equipment Engineer although it did help me to get a job as a Technical Instructor with my current employer.

Even though I have not, am not now, and never will use a lot of the knowledge I gained through all my years of school, none of my education is wasted. It is knowledge I have gained, it is mine to keep, and I like to think it has made me a better person.

Now, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions.

Do you like your job as a journalist? Would you have gotten that job without your degree?

If the answer to the first question is yes and the second is no, then your education was well worth the time and money.

Load of poop.
Doing a computing degree.
Havn't learnt anything useful to what i wish to do, and when something in my "field" as such, comes up, I already know it.
Boring me so much im sick of computers and looking at other avenues.
So technically im just going out alot and drinking...

I strongly urge you to get out of something that is destroying your soul (not to mention eroding your liver and possibly your mental health) and find something that is energising, value-adding and life-giving to you.

Your well-wisher

HC

Hmmm... interesting. Not something I'd ever considered. As far as I am aware, my University never had any particular stigma attached to it and was always well regarded. Maybe that's my erroneous impression.

Anywho...

University of Northumbria at Newcastle

How did your potential employers know of your "class background" as it were?

I completely agree with the method of perpetuation but the belief that the middle classes intentionally keep the working classes down is one I don't agree with. The main problem I had with the quote I gave was the use of "you will never be fully accepted". That implies a conscious effort not to accept those from other classes. There may be unintentional barriers to acceptance due to life circumstances but these can be overcome.

Fair enough.

I'd add that, in my view, it tends to be more of an UNCONSCIOUS exclusion rather than a conscious one, especially with the modern stigma attached to discrimination of all kinds.

As an example of unconscious discrimination, I offer you an example from ... I think it was Freakonomics (a book on economics) ... in which something daft like 99.9% of all registrants to an internet dating site say they don't care about the ethnicity of their date. Yet when it actually comes to contacting members of the opposite sex via the website then the unconscious discrimination is revealed. Only a tiny fraction of the wannabe daters contact anyone outside their own racial/ethnic group ...

Makes you think. Well, it makes me think. For a minute or two...

We don't agree on much, but when we do... :D

Big difference between politics and education. :p John Dewey, Charles Prosser, or a combination of both?

Yes i'll agree with the idea that the classes tend to help their own due to perpetuation by this method but I don't think it is a widespread occurence for people to be held back specifically due to bias against their background. I don't believe the statement :

"If you dont dress like the other class, talk like them, have the same manerisms as them, have the same formative experiences as them, run in the same social circles as them, and share their world view, you will never be fully accepted by them"

It's not any sort of conspiracy, but the simple fact of the matter is that most often like attracts like. And usually to the exclusion of every one else. We are most comfortable around others of the same class, back ground, beilefs, etc., and that is who we surround ourselves with. It's just the way it happens. How many captains of indusry have spent the weekend at your home? How many dirt farmers? Not many I'm guessing. Not because you are necessarily activly excluding them, but rather because you don't run in the same circles and don't share many intrests. We tend to stick with what we know.

From http://www.opiniojuris.org/posts/1180142475.shtml

The report summarizes the results:

Data on relative mobility suggest that people in the United States have experienced less relative mobility than is commonly believed. Most studies find that, in America, about half of the advantages of having a parent with a high income are passed on to the next generation. This means that one of the biggest predictors of an American child’s future economic success — the identity and characteristics of his or her parents — is predetermined and outside that child’s control. To be sure, the apple can fall far from the tree and often does in individual cases, but relative to other factors, the tree dominates the picture.

These findings are more striking when put in comparative context. There is little available evidence that the United States has more relative mobility than other advanced nations. If anything, the data seem to suggest the opposite. Using the relationship between parents’ and children’s incomes as an indicator of relative mobility, data show that a number of countries, including Denmark, Norway, Finland, Canada, Sweden, Germany, and France have more relative mobility than does the United States. Compared to the same peer group, Germany is 1.5 times more mobile than the United States, Canada nearly 2.5 times more mobile, and Denmark 3 times more mobile. Only the United Kingdom has relative mobility levels on par with those of the United States.
Ironically, despite this sobering data, the myth of the American dream is alive and well — Americans continue to be much more optimistic about economic mobility than their developed-country counterparts:
The underlying belief in the fluidity of class and economic status has differentiated Americans from citizens in the majority of other developed nations. As the data... suggest, compared to their global counterparts, Americans have tended to be far more optimistic about their ability to control their own economic destinies through hard work, less likely to believe that coming from a wealthy family is important to getting ahead, less likely to think that differences in income within their country are too large, and less likely to favor the government’s taking responsibility to reduce those differences.
Lest the report be dismissed as leftist propaganda, it's worth noting that the Economic Mobility Project is a joint effort of the The American Enterprise Institute, The Brookings Institution, The Heritage Foundation, and The Urban Institute.

Hmmm... interesting. Not something I'd ever considered. As far as I am aware, my University never had any particular stigma attached to it and was always well regarded. Maybe that's my erroneous impression.

Anywho...

University of Northumbria at Newcastle

Ah, a former polytechnic.

Although it is not particularly low in the University league tables (58 out of 109 in the Times 2007 guide), its polytechnic image may have worked against you in a profession like Law which has become extremely competive because of an abundance of graduates (as you noted).

I got a degree in History, and really I loved the classes and enjoyed most of my professors, however as I found out, a History degree is worthless in the real world, I haven't been able to find a job, so that's why I'm getting an MA.

However, with the MA, I have two choices. I can either go and be an Occupational Therapist, a well paying job, that I can get anywhere in the country and good insurance. However, I'm not sure if I would be happy at this job and it would probably get to me after awhile.

The other choice is that I get a Public History MA, then a MLIS, and become an archivist. It doesn't pay as much as an OT, nor can I find a job anywhere in the country, and I'm unsure about the insurance, but at least it'd be a nice quiet job that I'd actually enjoy going to and it would not get to me.

Of course I could also entertain the idea of being a journalist, so yea.

Ahh choices, choices.

Thanks for the contribution ... my thoughts (below)

Well, in my 64 years of life I have never met a person whose education was "a waste of time and money." I have met people who may have chosen the wrong degree, but they learned a lot while in school and what they learned helped them in the career they chose.

OK - I'll certainly concede this. There are few experiences that are a total waste. I once picked myself up and set myself up in an entrepreneurial business on the other side of the Atlantic, in the US. I tried my hand at self-employed door-to-door sales. And I sucked. Big time. It was a terrible time for me. I'd never really ever failed before. I tried and I tried and I just couldn't make a go of it. Eventually I realised that, perhaps, it's better to give up every now and then and attempt to direct my resources (time, money, effort) into something that might offer a greater chance of success.


I don't think my undergraduate degree helped me all that much but I do know that it helped me get at least one very important promotion. My graduate degree is in Occupational and Adult Education and has absolutely nothing to do with my current job as an Aircraft Equipment Engineer although it did help me to get a job as a Technical Instructor with my current employer.

Thank you for sharing your experience.


Even though I have not, am not now, and never will use a lot of the knowledge I gained through all my years of school, none of my education is wasted. It is knowledge I have gained, it is mine to keep, and I like to think it has made me a better person.

My education has largely been wasted. The knowledge has gone too - I can't really remember anything much about my course and I don't use it in my daily/monthly/yearly life. That said, even if I could remember it, which I can't, it would be worthless to me now as (unlike, say, physics), the subject matter changes all the time.


Now, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions.
Do you like your job as a journalist?

Love it - it's great fun.



Would you have gotten that job without your degree?


Totally. Journalism, in the UK at least, has traditionally (i.e. in the manufacturing era) been a job that bright, working class boys and girls have filled. It kept you out of the pit (mine)/factory/dockyards. There are many journalists working today (who I have personally met) who have no qualifications in journalism and have no degree at all.

I personally work in a field that is totally unrelated to the subject of my degree. And all my journalism skills have been learned in the field. In about six years or so of practice, I've had about five days theory training.

How did your potential employers know of your "class background" as it were?

Kind of obvious. Scumsville school as a kid. Scumsville college of further education. Polyversity of Northeast scumsville. You can't shake it really.

HC

Kind of obvious. Scumsville school as a kid. Scumsville college of further education. Polyversity of Northeast scumsville. You can't shake it really.

HC

The first two i'll admit are a bit impossible to shake off. The third one isn't a result of your social background though is it? Unless it was a matter of not being able to afford moving away from home to uni or something like that.

And just before I get further into any of this i'm mainly arguing this side to clarify my own thoughts on the issue

I've just finished my first year at university so only have limited hindsight available, but currently I've enjoyed all of it. It doesn't feel like a waste of money and I didn't go into it with career prospects in the forefront of my mind, I'm just studying a subject I love - Music. I doubt it will get my a job in a music-related industry, but the things I've learnt will hopefully be valued elsewhere considering it is an academic music degree, not a performance one.

Ah, a former polytechnic.

Although it is not particularly low in the University league tables (58 out of 109 in the Times 2007 guide), its polytechnic image may have worked against you in a profession like Law which has become extremely competive because of an abundance of graduates (as you noted).



Thanks for the input. It's possible. I certainly heard from some graduate recruiters (after graduating, that is) that they only recruited from certain universities. It gets worse. In my extreme foolishness, I signed up for a masters degree in law at London University, specifically, Queen Mary and Westfield College. I later heard from some graduate recruiters that they only recruit from certain colleges within certain universities.

The funny thing of it is this: the UNN law school is damn good. Excellent facilities, good teachers and actual, real-life experience. By the time I had graduated I had represented several real people in court (well, for the sake of accuracy, it was the Employment Tribunal - which is effectively a court). I had taken cases - for free - fought for and safeguarded the rights of people who were otherwise denied justice. I sat up until four or five in the morning working on cases that were valid but otherwise denied justice. OK - I was doing it for my own selfish ends - but it seemed to carry no weight when weighed in the scale labelled 'And whose son are you?'

In any event, there are loads and loads of law graduates who are now also graduates of McDonalds University or who are now experts in ditch-digging and refuse collecting. So I won't put it all down to class systems.

I think the whole higher education system in the UK is broken. We're churning out thousands and thousands of grads (some of whom are mediocre at best) and there just ain't the graduate jobs available for all those people.

Degree in Architecture,... left that for a lucrative offer in the fuzzy realm of graphic design,...

The work hours' still bad, but atleast I got paid more for something that would haunt me EVEN after I died.

REMEMBER KIDS; when you build pyramids, never make it look like a giant penis, or else after thousands of years people will say that you're compensating for something.

Oh yeah, Pyramids doesn't look like penises, they looked like a low polygon boob.

i doubt you'd have got a job as a journalist without a degree.


I don't know. Peter Hitchens got a job as a journalist.

The first two i'll admit are a bit impossible to shake off. The third one isn't a result of your social background though is it? Unless it was a matter of not being able to afford moving away from home to uni or something like that.

And just before I get further into any of this i'm mainly arguing this side to clarify my own thoughts on the issue

In response, I'll just direct you to Volavovsky's post above, which I quote here...

"Ah, a former polytechnic ['My third one']

Although it is not particularly low in the University league tables (58 out of 109 in the Times 2007 guide), its polytechnic image may have worked against you in a profession like Law which has become extremely competive because of an abundance of graduates (as you noted)."

You can also have a look at some of my earlier posts on nepotism and some of my posts following the Volavovsky post.

Cheers

HC

Kind of obvious. Scumsville school as a kid. Scumsville college of further education. Polyversity of Northeast scumsville. You can't shake it really.

HC

Aren't most of the lectures there held in Luckys?

In response, I'll just direct you to Volavovsky's post above, which I quote here...

"Ah, a former polytechnic ['My third one']

Although it is not particularly low in the University league tables (58 out of 109 in the Times 2007 guide), its polytechnic image may have worked against you in a profession like Law which has become extremely competive because of an abundance of graduates (as you noted)."

You can also have a look at some of my earlier posts on nepotism and some of my posts following the Volavovsky post.

Cheers

HC

Yes its previous image worked against it, not your social background. You may have chose it based on its good teaching, etc but because of the views employers may have about "polyversities" you were looked down on as a result. Is that a fault of your social background or your choice of university

I got a degree in History, and really I loved the classes and enjoyed most of my professors, however as I found out, a History degree is worthless in the real world, I haven't been able to find a job, so that's why I'm getting an MA.

When I was working on my undergrad degree I told my History prof. I was thinking of changing majors to History or Political Science. He said, Mr. Oklatex, I won't let you do that." I asked him how he would have anything to do with my decision. He said, "I'm the department head and I won't let you change. Go ahead and get a degree you can use to earn a living. Then, if you want to come back and get a degree in History. With a degree in History, you can only get a job teaching or in government and even then you need a minimum of a Masters."

I didn't change majors, and I didn't go back and get my degree in History.

I've just finished my first year at university so only have limited hindsight available, but currently I've enjoyed all of it. It doesn't feel like a waste of money and I didn't go into it with career prospects in the forefront of my mind, I'm just studying a subject I love - Music. I doubt it will get my a job in a music-related industry, but the things I've learnt will hopefully be valued elsewhere considering it is an academic music degree, not a performance one.

I think you've gone into further education for totally the right reason - love of the subject.

If you have 99% talent but 0% love then you will fail. If you have 1% talent but 99% love for the subject then you cannot do anything but succeed.

People like you are what university was originally meant for - for people with intelligence, talent and passion for what they do.

University was never meant to be a three year sit-off to drink beer, fuck chicks, and smoke weed ... although it is fun to do those things :0D ... at someone else's expense.

The sooner we get the Uni system back to what it's supposed to be - education the seriously bright, talented and passionate - then the better we all (university, individual, society as a whole) will all be.

Cheers

HC

Is that a fault of your social background or your choice of university


Dunno. But kinda irrelevant. I was fucked either way.

The point being ... my university education was a total waste of time and money. I'd have been better off working from age 16.

Now, I'm a great fan of the concept of university education as a whole. I just don't think it should be offered to 40% or 50% of the population

HC

I personally work in a field that is totally unrelated to the subject of my degree. And all my journalism skills have been learned in the field. In about six years or so of practice, I've had about five days theory training.

But I'll bet all those papers you had to write for classes in Uni have made you a much better journalist than you would have been otherwise. The best of luck to you in your career and who knows, maybe one day you will win a Pulitzer.

Aren't most of the lectures there held in Luckys?



Heee heee - that's a blast from teh past. Much Caffrey's was drunk in that bar when I was there :0D

Dunno. But kinda irrelevant. I was fucked either way.

The point being ... my university education was a total waste of time and money. I'd have been better off working from age 16.

Now, I'm a great fan of the concept of university education as a whole. I just don't think it should be offered to 40% or 50% of the population

HC

How were you fucked either way when trying to find a job?

If we agree that the university you attend makes a difference to your employment prospects then we can say that you mightn't have been fucked either way.

If you want to stick with the thought that "Maybe it was just that they didn't want someone from a poor, working class background in their midst" is the reason then yes you were probably fucked either way.

It depends on what you think is the deciding factor really

When I was working on my undergrad degree I told my History prof. I was thinking of changing majors to History or Political Science. He said, Mr. Oklatex, I won't let you do that." I asked him how he would have anything to do with my decision. He said, "I'm the department head and I won't let you change. Go ahead and get a degree you can use to earn a living. Then, if you want to come back and get a degree in History. With a degree in History, you can only get a job teaching or in government and even then you need a minimum of a Masters."

I didn't change majors, and I didn't go back and get my degree in History.

Sounds like he was a smart guy.

I think you've gone into further education for totally the right reason - love of the subject.

If you have 99% talent but 0% love then you will fail. If you have 1% talent but 99% love for the subject then you cannot do anything but succeed.

People like you are what university was originally meant for - for people with intelligence, talent and passion for what they do.

University was never meant to be a three year sit-off to drink beer, fuck chicks, and smoke weed ... although it is fun to do those things :0D ... at someone else's expense.

The sooner we get the Uni system back to what it's supposed to be - education the seriously bright, talented and passionate - then the better we all (university, individual, society as a whole) will all be.

Cheers

HC

In a sense I agree with you. But I also feel kind of uncertain about my future due to not knowing what I want to/can do after I graduate. Equally though, most degrees (at least at my uni) are not trying to focus you into a specific career area so I suppose we're all in the same boat.

.....if your main aim is to gain more and more knowledge. On the other hand if your aim is to make as much money as possible then it could well be a waste of time and money

If that's really your aim, you're missing out on a lot of life.

If that's really your aim, you're missing out on a lot of life.

If your main aim in life is to increase your academic learning, you're missing out on a lot of life

But I'll bet all those papers you had to write for classes in Uni have made you a much better journalist than you would have been otherwise. The best of luck to you in your career and who knows, maybe one day you will win a Pulitzer.

You seem like a nice guy and I really can't disagree with you more.

Academic style writing is absolute death when it comes to journalistic writing. Good journalistic writing (and I realise there is an awful lot of bad journalistic writing) is 'tight'.

What do I mean by that? Tight writing is:

Punchy - it hits you. Can't really elaborate on this - it's more of a feeling

Short - why use the word 'facilitate' when the word 'help' is so much better

Accurate - something that both academics and journalists claim. Having been both, I contend that being under threat of a libel lawsuit keeps journalists steeeeeeeely sharp. Much more so than in academia. I can't count the number of libel lawsuits I've fought off using the defence of justification. It's all good fun :0D

Interesting - it just grabs you. Unlike academic writing

Emotional - we are all emotional creatures. Emotions form a very important part of our decision making process. We live for, and die for, emotion. Academic writing is often without emotion.

Academic writing is none of these things. Academic writing is bad writing, full stop.

Thanks for the good wishes re: the Pulitzer. Maybe! One day!

If your main aim in life is to increase your academic learning, you're missing out on a lot of life

Good thing that's not my goal then, but given the choice, I'd rather chase after knowledge than money. I'd rather be poor and intellectually fulfilled than a wealthy idiot.

Good thing that's not my goal then, but given the choice, I'd rather chase after knowledge than money. I'd rather be poor and intellectually fulfilled than a wealthy idiot.

I'd rather have the money to experience all I want to. I may be an academic idiot relatively speaking but i'll be a worldly wise one

In a sense I agree with you. But I also feel kind of uncertain about my future due to not knowing what I want to/can do after I graduate. Equally though, most degrees (at least at my uni) are not trying to focus you into a specific career area so I suppose we're all in the same boat.

Get career counselling. Lots and lots of it. You only live something like 29,000 days (sounds horribly short don't it?!) You do not want to be doing that doing something you don't want to do.

Seek and take advice from everyone - your mum, your dad, the postman, your cat, your randomly stopped stranger on the street. 99.9% of what you will be told will be complete rubbish - discard it. The remainder will be gold.

You do need to make an effort to find out what you want to do. You need to set goals. It's like driving in a car - yes, it's pleasant to drive around and around but, ultimately, you want to go somewhere. And you want to go somewhere good. Setting goals - and picking processes that are congruent with your personality - are part of the key ingredients to finding happiness. You can do it but it will take effort.

Good luck.

Heee heee - that's a blast from teh past. Much Caffrey's was drunk in that bar when I was there :0D

I always make it a point to visit there when I go back home. MY girlfriend reckons its rank, but I tell her she just never had the benefit of going to six form in the north east.

I've learned more from my time at the NS boards than from getting my bachelor's degree.

Nazz/Dundee-Fien

re: chasing money v academic learning

Academic learning ... if done for the right reasons, and with the heart (and finances) in the right place is great. If I won the lottery, I'd probably become a serial student.

That said, I've been in entrepreneurial money making ventures and they are fun - the excitement of the chase and the thrill of the kill (walking home with a great big fat cheque in your pocket) and seeing something that you have created just grow and grow is the best thing ever.

The argument between the two is a false argument. They each have their own merits. And they're not exclusive.

There are loads of people who have gone out and done PHDs and turned that knowledge into highly-successful venture capital backed companies. You're comparing apples to ... I dunno, some god-damn other thing :0D

I always make it a point to visit there when I go back home. MY girlfriend reckons its rank, but I tell her she just never had the benefit of going to six form in the north east.

I once got really drunk in there (just the once I swear!) and spilled my pint all over a diminutive but hot (well stacked) brunette from Liverpool.

Ah, the memories.

There are loads of people who have gone out and done PHDs and turned that knowledge into highly-successful venture capital backed companies. You're comparing apples to ... I dunno, some god-damn other thing :0D

Venezuelan Midgets *nods*

Venezuelan Midgets *nods*

Small hairy camels of doooom called Jeff *nods, drunkenly*

Good thing that's not my goal then, but given the choice, I'd rather chase after knowledge than money. I'd rather be poor and intellectually fulfilled than a wealthy idiot.

That's not really how college/university is packaged to people though is it. Pretty much it's held out as a gateway to bigger salaries and riches. What the OP says is totally fair, it is, for many people, a bit of a rip-off.

(Also, as we become an increasingly global world, it will be the death of out countries. 99% of the world doesn't give a fuck about having a thorough knowledge of William Hazlitt).

I think you expected too much from your degree. Graduating college does not equal instant uber-great paycheck, big house and such. You still have to work your way up, just like everyone else.

People think that my husband (who btw seems to be perpetually in college) should be rich because he is 'in computers' ignoring the fact that a LOT of people are 'in computers' and he still has to compete. We could be making more money, but we would have to move, to a place I don't like, and he would have to work for a company we hate, and my kids would have to make sacrifices we aren't willing to force them to make.

Life is about choices, if you want to do better make the right ones, if you made the wrong ones in the past choose to quit whining and find a new route.

My degree will most likely be looked upon as useless because I don't intend to really get a job......well, not one like the rest of the people I am going to school with. I have a job, 6 of them, I intend to pretty much live the way I do now after I graduate, only I will know more and I will have survived writing a thesis. :cool:

I once got really drunk in there (just the once I swear!) and spilled my pint all over a diminutive but hot (well stacked) brunette from Liverpool.

Ah, the memories.

You don't really have your wings until you've puked on the floor there.

Good times, good times.

I'd rather have the money to experience all I want to. I may be an academic idiot relatively speaking but i'll be a worldly wise one

Don't count on it. Money =/=worldly wisdom. In fact, some of the biggest dumbasses in the world are absolutely loaded. Do you really think Donald Trump is worldly wise? Seriously?

Don't count on it. Money =/=worldly wisdom. In fact, some of the biggest dumbasses in the world are absolutely loaded. Do you really think Donald Trump is worldly wise? Seriously?

I never said money = worldly wisdom. I said experiences = worldly wisdom

i doubt you'd have got a job as a journalist without a degree.

having said that, university is far too bloody expensive. i want to know what my ten grand a year was spent on, cuz it can't have been the lecturers. 4 hours tuition a week does not cost that much.

wow, 10 grand a year sounds like a bargain in when compared to many universities. Of course nothing is a bargain if the product is worthless to begin with. Is that the point you are making?

Don't count on it. Money =/=worldly wisdom. In fact, some of the biggest dumbasses in the world are absolutely loaded. Do you really think Donald Trump is worldly wise? Seriously?

I know lots of people with Ph.Ds who are total dumbasses too.

I know lots of people with Ph.Ds who are total dumbasses too.

So do I. It's entirely possible to get a PhD and learn next to nothing. But getting degrees isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about challenging yourself intellectually, choosing new experiences over the single-minded pursuit of money, that sort of thing.

Eh, I'm actually getting my degree right now. Though from what I've seen at the job fairs, America still is, in some regards, the Land of Opportunity.

wow, 10 grand a year sounds like a bargain in when compared to many universities. Of course nothing is a bargain if the product is worthless to begin with. Is that the point you are making?

pretty much. but then i wouldn't call 10 grand a year a bargain for any uni course, especialy when my peers only pay a fraction of that. oh,, the joys of being an international student.

incidentally, i am graduating tomorrow. yays!

Gah, no option in the poll for me.

Whilst my Masters degree (Computing) was entirely useless from a "getting a job" point of view, it was (mostly) really good from lots of other points of view. If I could go back and change my mind about going to University, I wouldn't.

Saying that, if I could go back I'd tack a PhD on the end of it and stay a student (or, worst case, an academic) FOREVER, because this real-life working-for-a-living lark is bollocks. Only fools and horses. Seriously. :p

Then you doubt wrongly. Journalism in the UK has traditionally been the job of choice for bright, working class school leavers (age 16).

I've known plenty of journalists working without degrees.

Wasn't the term "gutter press" coined there :p

So do I. It's entirely possible to get a PhD and learn next to nothing. But getting degrees isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about challenging yourself intellectually, choosing new experiences over the single-minded pursuit of money, that sort of thing.

And I have no problem with that. Nor am I saying that life should only consist of the soulless pursuit of money either. But the plain fact is that Colleges and Universities sell themselves as access to better paying jobs. Which is why the vast majority of people attend, and which is why every college boasts about what type of high profile/high positions the alumni have.

And judged from that perspective they are a total failure. They don't, in general, really secure for their graduates a the type of employment they promise.

At some point they should be taken to task for this.

Personally, I'm about to graduate in Computer Engineering (next Tuesday) and the fact that I actually have been to college and worked hard to get good grades got me where I am today. I've worked in a 900M€ bank and am on the move for a consultant position, always working on my areas of interest. 950€/year for this is a bargain.
I do believe that if people insist on pursuing degrees on areas that are way too overcrowded, they'll only get a job if they're really good. It's hard to give up a dream, but one can predict that the dream may not come true after college.

I think you expected too much from your degree. Graduating college does not equal instant uber-great paycheck, big house and such. You still have to work your way up, just like everyone else.


Not really. As another poster says somewhere, degrees are sold on the basis that you'll have uber everything thereafter. Consider these adverts...

"Your world, your career, your opportunity" - Uinversity of London, the Economist, June 16, 2007.

"Surge forward and mark your space amongst the future leaders"
Toulouse Business School, the Economist, June 16, 2007

These things are sold on the basis that they will change your life. As I've pointed out, they don't. And I could have had an equally beneficial experience at a far cheaper cost.

And, in my defence, I'd add that I was a mere sprog at age 18 and didn't know any better.

That said, the defences are unnecessary.

University degrees are explicitly sold to the masses (in the UK anyway) as being a sound investment for the future. I contend that the actual and opportunity costs outweigh the benefit delivered and, in that sense, the costs of university outweight the benefit and so going to university is a waste of time and money.

Now, I just know someone is going to say 'the benefit of uni can't be measured in money/cost alone'. I understand what you're getting at. And I add this - I came from a big city (itself a multi-university town) and had plenty of social experiences, I was regularly meeting people from different walks of life yadda yadda yadda. I contend that on both a social/lifechanging and financial basis that becoming the possessor of a university degree is not all that it's cracked up to be.



Life is about choices, if you want to do better make the right ones, if you made the wrong ones in the past choose to quit whining and find a new route.

Firstly, I'll whine if I want.

Secondly, although life is about choices, sometimes those choices get made for you and you don't know that. You think you're making the right choice ... but something intervenes. Let me tell you a little story here: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12808089&postcount=21

Thirdly, nothing ever gets better if people don't whine. Whining helps to make things better as it puts information into the public arena for people to consume and it helps them make better decisions (know as reducing information assymetries).

Fourthly, I did quit whining and find a new route. I gave up on law. I became a journalist instead, packed up my belongings and buggered off to a part of the world where I could make some cash. Possibly.


My degree will most likely be looked upon as useless because I don't intend to really get a job......well, not one like the rest of the people I am going to school with. I have a job, 6 of them, I intend to pretty much live the way I do now after I graduate, only I will know more and I will have survived writing a thesis. :cool:

And good for you. You went to uni and got a degree for your own reasons and on your own terms. the fact that other people may regard it as useless is completely irrelevant. The degree served the purpose for which you enrolled. In that sense your degree was a valuable and worthy use of your time whereas mine was a waste.

Thanks for your contribution

HC

Meh. Frankly, what with my being part of a generation that will be 50% graduate, it is a necessity.

I said experiences = worldly wisdom

You can have all the experience in the world and still be a numbnuts. That whole "experience is wisdom" thing never really convinced me, you actually have to think a bit about your experiences and draw some conclusions in order to learn something. I know a lot of people in their forties that are quite dumb...

Good thing that's not my goal then, but given the choice, I'd rather chase after knowledge than money. I'd rather be poor and intellectually fulfilled than a wealthy idiot.

Often money follows knowledge but seldom does knowledge follow money.

Did you do a degree at university?Yep. Three of them.

Did you, like me, find it was a total waste of time and money?Not at all!

I came from a poor, working class background and was sold 'the dream'. Middle class education, middle class career, middle class income, middle class life.Hmm, sounds like you may have been going in with the wrong expectations to begin with. That "dream" has always been mostly a lie, but particularly so over the last thirty years or so.

That leaves only the career-advancing & financial aspects of study to consider.Are you not forgetting about the life-enriching, mind-expanding, educational aspects of university?

If you insist that the principal goal of a university is to "get you a job," then you're bound to be disappointed in today's job market.

I got a solid 2:1 in law (Law with legal practice - by the end of my course I could ably draft wills and do all the documentation relating to buying and selling houses). I had a specialism in international taxation.Wait, let me get this straight: you got some sort of legal secretary or paralegal degree, but not an actual law degree? Or am I missing something?

And now you're surprised you can't find a job with that? :confused:

In short, I did everything I was supposed to do.Umm... except going to an actual law school for a graduate degree?

I don't know why, but law firms just weren't interested in what I was offering.I know why: because what you were offering was a dime a dozen. You should have gone to law school. (Again, unless I'm missing something... but if you were an actual lawyer, why not set up private practice?)

I graduated with a mountain of debt and, I realised, no job prospects in law.Did you try anything else? Almost no one with an undergraduate degree gets a job in "their field"--but, on average, university graduates are able to get better-paying jobs than non-grads. You just have to look at other possibilities besides those in "your field."

I've learned more from my time at the NS boards than from getting my bachelor's degree.

You must have gone to a really bad college. :eek:

I'm partway through a degree in computer science. I've decided to take a year off and do an internship before I finish my degree. I figure that the experience on my resume will make finding a job much easier once I have my degree. There's also the possibility that they will like me well enough that they invite me to back after I'm finished my degree.

I don't consider my studies to have been a waste of time, although my family is paying for it so the cost isn't a problem.

You must have gone to a really bad college. :eek:

Or just never payed attention in class.

Anyway, I'm majoring in Biochemistry and I'm shooting for pharmacy school. If I don't get in, I'll try research or another career path related to my major. I enjoy learning about science, and earning money comes second, because as long as I can live comfortably and have job I enjoy, I'll be content with that.

That's not really how college/university is packaged to people though is it. Pretty much it's held out as a gateway to bigger salaries and riches. What the OP says is totally fair, it is, for many people, a bit of a rip-off.

(Also, as we become an increasingly global world, it will be the death of out countries. 99% of the world doesn't give a fuck about having a thorough knowledge of William Hazlitt).

The truth is that in the U.S. high school does not prepare the student for either college or a trade. Most college students in the U.S. do not complete a degree within five years and most high school graduates cannot find a decent job with a good career path.

The reality is not all people want a college education. Some people want to become mechanics, plumbers, electricians, but God forbid. Mommy and Daddy want little Billy to be a lawyer, doctor, or a computer scientist. But never, ever, in any way a mechanic, plumber, electrician who are hard working and well paid professionals. So, our educational system is geared to people who can (who better) pass a federal test that the teacher taught rather than prepare them for college or a job.

So what does the school do? It doesn’t give a damn about what the student wants. It bows to the will of the parents and the government and turns out “graduates” who can’t even complete a job application without help.

Oh, and if you don’t think a mechanic, plumber or electrician earns good money, just hire one to fix something.

END OF RANT! :mad::headbang:

I'm working on getting a degree in ethics...I should be fine...right?

Life is about choices, if you want to do better make the right ones, if you made the wrong ones in the past choose to quit whining and find a new route.

Amen sister.

I have a job, 6 of them, I intend to pretty much live the way I do now after I graduate, only I will know more and I will have survived writing a thesis. :cool:

Is that 5 kids and 1 husband or 6 kids? :p Oh, and most people do survive writing the dreaded thesis. :D

But the plain fact is that Colleges and Universities sell themselves as access to better paying jobs.

Statistic show that this is a true statement. No, I'm not going to google up the statistics for you. Do it yourself.

Statistic show that this is a true statement. No, I'm not going to google up the statistics for you. Do it yourself.

So what. Statistics also show that if you never play the million dollar slot machines you'll never win a million dollars from a slot machine.

College is not really held out as gambling though, is it?

because as long as I can live comfortably and have job I enjoy, I'll be content with that.

Finally, someone who knows what life is all about. Priority 1# is a job you can enjoy because if you don't enjoy the work it will affect every other aspect of your life. Priority #2 is to live comfortably, not better that everyone else. Oh, and when you get married Priority #1 becomes the FAMILY and the others move down one notch. :fluffle:

My aunt and uncle both went to Ivy league colleges and got Ivy League law degrees, and their father was lower-middle to middle class. They worked really hard throughout their school years, from high school through to graduate school, and they are both making a ton of money. They are both partners in different law firms, one in Boston, one in Maine. My parents, on the other hand, got fine arts degrees, and are making much less money combined than either my uncle or my aunt. So, education can be a way to advance your proffesional carreer. Although I have a feeling I'm going to follow more in my parents footsteps, and try to do and study something I like, rather than doing whatever it takes to make as much money as possible.

Speaking from my own experience, I did the "school of life" from the time I quit high school at 17 until I applied for a mature student exception at 28. Had a blast, learned a ton, but hit the ceiling of the jobs that were never going to become available to me without the degree.

So, went to university, was pragmatic, earned a double-major (business and computer science), worked hard, graduated with the university award for best marks in my discipline, took the opportunity to include a co-op program, so that I graduated with the degrees, the award, and 16 months of work experience.

Joined one of the companies that I had had a co-op placement with, stayed there for three years, moved on to a technical architecture position elsewhere for two more years, then went independant. Been consulting for seven years now, and am currently a technical lead on what is one of the largest database projects underway in Canada, either private or public sector.


Was my degree worth it? Damn straight! But I was also very pragmatic about how I went about it, and how I have managed my career since. That and I just work hard at being very good at what I do.

Yep. Three of them.

Are you not forgetting about the life-enriching, mind-expanding, educational aspects of university?


Nope. Fully took account of that in earlier posts when I talked about coming from a big town, having opportunities to meet people, travel, yadda yadda yadda. As I said before, it's over-rated.


If you insist that the principal goal of a university is to "get you a job," then you're bound to be disappointed in today's job market.


Shurely that's the point of Uni? You're investing in yourself so that you become more employable at the higher level jobs? You spend so much time and effort and money doing it, you shurely must be concerned with getting a good return on your investment?


Wait, let me get this straight: you got some sort of legal secretary or paralegal degree, but not an actual law degree? Or am I missing something?


No, I got an actual law degree. Studied all the core elements of law as laid down by the UK law society. Actually represented a few people in court as a legal representative.

As it happens, I can type, so I actually found it easier to get a job as a legal secretary (paid more than working in a McJob) than to become a lawyer - a position for which I had trained academically and vocationally.


unless I'm missing something... but if you were an actual lawyer, why not set up private practice?

Lawyering in the UK's not like in the US. As I understand it, anyone with a law degree can promptly set up and call themselves a lawyer.

In the UK wannabe lawyers have to do a two-year apprenticeship before being allowed to practice law. Those apprenticeships are extremely difficult to come by ... unless your dad also happens to own his own law firm.


Did you try anything else? Almost no one with an undergraduate degree gets a job in "their field"--but, on average, university graduates are able to get better-paying jobs than non-grads. You just have to look at other possibilities besides those in "your field."

Yep. Worked in a a variety of related professions, did voluntary work, did internships, did further study. Nothing mattered.

So I quit* and became a journalist. Never looked back.



*Here's my take on winning/losing & quitting:

Winners never quit.
Quitters never win.
People who never win and don't quit are idiots.

And I have no problem with that. Nor am I saying that life should only consist of the soulless pursuit of money either. But the plain fact is that Colleges and Universities sell themselves as access to better paying jobs. Which is why the vast majority of people attend, and which is why every college boasts about what type of high profile/high positions the alumni have.

And judged from that perspective they are a total failure. They don't, in general, really secure for their graduates a the type of employment they promise.

At some point they should be taken to task for this.

I disagree that they're failures at that. On an individual basis, sure, there are people who don't benefit financially from going to college and completing a degree, but the overall statistics don't lie--a college degree adds to your lifetime earning substantially on the average compared to a high school diplome. Now, it may not be in the field you've chosen, but the experience still gives you a lot more options. University isn't meant to be a training facility--we have tech schools for that kind of stuff. A university is meant to help you learn how to think critically and how to learn to react to changing circumstances while providing a baseline of knowledge that will aid in giving you an understanding of your world and culture. And in the vast majority of cases, it does that.

Now look--you get out of college what you put in as a student, so if all you're looking for is job training, maybe it isn't for you (not you personally, mind--a generic you). But the system is a beneficial one overall, and if you approach it openly, you can pull a lot out of it.

Did you do a degree at university?

Did you, like me, find it was a total waste of time and money?

*snip for length*

My advice, based on my experience: avoid university, find a trade, emigrate from Britain to avoid punitive taxes. It's the only logical choice.

What has been your experience?
My degrees haven't been a waste so far. My undergraduate degrees (Biology, Philosophy, Psychology) allowed me to get into grad school.

In grad school, I get paid to study a subject I love, I get to set my own hours, and I pretty much have control over everything I work on. My boss is really more of a mentor. She advises me, and she could over-rule me if she was really convinced I was doing something wrong, but so far she's always left final say up to me.

I make enough money to live quite comfortably.

It's not the perfect life, but I don't think I could realistically expect anything better at this point.

Heh what a tread. It makes me laugh when I hear people who do have degree's rant like this.

So you don't find it useful at all?

I read about two weeks back a report that suggested that those with degrees earn up to 25% more than those without. Quit ya moaning man, and get out there and make that degree work for you.

You can have all the experience in the world and still be a numbnuts. That whole "experience is wisdom" thing never really convinced me, you actually have to think a bit about your experiences and draw some conclusions in order to learn something. I know a lot of people in their forties that are quite dumb...

1) Age does not necessarily = wisdom
2) Money gives me more of an opportunity to accumulate experiences than constant studying would
3) You have to appreciate the experiences you have to learn from them

I've never meant to imply that money automatically means you will use it for experiences. All I meant is that money means you can afford to do things for the experience alone. Therefore money gives you more of a chance to build up wisdom than studying alone

I went into full time employment at 16 with no qualifications, on the basis that "in 5 years time, they'll have degrees, but I'll have 5 years experience - that will count for something". yeah right.

I've found that once you are in a job, you can shine. If you work for a large organisation, you can get promotions based on your proven ability and attitude - so that's fine. At that stage, most people assume you have a degree anyway. The problem is trying to get jobs at the same level in other organisations - so many half decent jobs stipulate a degree as an essential prerequisite and some employers won't even look at a CV without one.

Graduate schemes in large organisations can be a real gift in starting a career and I kicked myself a lot when I used to recruit the graduates for the scheme at my old workplace. They came straight from uni to a guarenteed career with a fasttrack to management - I could have made so much use of an opportunity like that.

I've done well in my career - but not having that bit of paper to get my foot in the door is proving to be a pain now. I have started studying with the OU (can't recommend them highly enough) and am also working towards LRSM, but of course, it takes time.