NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11291650


Poland Appeals to Label Auschwitz as 'German'
by Emily Harris

All Things Considered, June 22, 2007 · Authorities in Poland want to change the name of the Auschwitz concentration camp to officially include the word "German" in the title. Poles hope that will end the problem of Poland being mistaken as the perpetrator.

The change was first discussed last summer. A decision will be made at the UNESCO conference at the end of June.

So...Opinions?

I don't really think that it adding "German" to the name is really going to change a whole lot.

All I know is that anyone who thinks the Poles ran Auschwitz deserves a sound beating.

And what do they hope to achieve by changing the name? It seems... pointless.

And anyone who knows ANYTHING about WWII knows damn well the Nazis ran the concentration camp, not the Poles.

I wonder why do they assume that people think it was them who run that place.

... and to think that the Germans invaded them first in 1939.

All I know is that anyone who thinks the Poles ran Auschwitz deserves a sound beating.

QFT.

Is there a problem in Poland with the Poles thinking that Poland invaded Poland in 1939? I've never heard anything more absurd. Is it national 'piss the Germans off and harp back 60 years' month in Poland?

Well, I guess they deserve a month, i mean, after being occupied, reoccupied, destroyed, etc by Germany.

Is there a problem in Poland with the Poles thinking that Poland invaded Poland in 1939? I've never heard anything more absurd. Is it national 'piss the Germans off and harp back 60 years' month in Poland?

Silly Poles, anyone who knows what Aushcwitz is knows the Germans were behind it.

I smell Kaczyński here...

Is there a problem in Poland with the Poles thinking that Poland invaded Poland in 1939? I've never heard anything more absurd. Is it national 'piss the Germans off and harp back 60 years' month in Poland?

no. It's something our current government is doing, and has been since they were "elected". I'm not very happy about it.

Same Poles who made a stink at the EU recently by mentioning the war, demanding extra representation because Germany killed so many poles?

Poland Appeals to Label Auschwitz as 'German'So they want to give Silesia back to us? XD

*Runs*

All I know is that anyone who thinks the Poles ran Auschwitz deserves a sound beating.
Agreed, anyone that fucking stupid to begin with isn't going to be affected by a change to "German Auschwitz."
Hell, I would expect people that stupid to not even realize Poles were real.

Does that mean someone's assuming that Poland wasn't Germany's bitch throughout WW2?

Oh dear... Poland is starting to slide down a very dangerous way.

i would think there would be far more people who think that auschwitz is in germany than who think that it was a polish idea.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11291650




So...Opinions?

I don't really think that it adding "German" to the name is really going to change a whole lot.

It may also be another sign of Poland not willing to come to terms with how complicit they were in the Holocaust, and how much anti-Semitism ran deep in Poland before the Germans ever showed up.

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So...Opinions?

I don't really think that it adding "German" to the name is really going to change a whole lot.

There is a simple solution that will solve this problem. Germany has to invade Poland again. When that happens Auschwitz will be part of Germany.

There is a simple solution that will solve this problem. Germany has to invade Poland again. When that happens Auschwitz will be part of Germany.
*lol* Don't tell that the Merkel

There is a simple solution that will solve this problem. Germany has to invade Poland again. When that happens Auschwitz will be part of Germany.But...

We don't want it.

Seriously. Why would we want to get into the cold-ass winters of Eastern Europe?

Now, acquiring the mediterranean bits of France - that would be a deal.

And people think Poles are stupid. Come to think of it, who does think the Poles, aside from a few collaborators, had anything to do with the German Nazis?

But...

We don't want it.

Seriously. Why would we want to get into the cold-ass winters of Eastern Europe?

*Ponders* I am part German so could I have it? It would be Part German Auschwitz then but beggars can't be choosers.


.... Oh wait, then I'd have to get some kind of security system set up to keep out the nazis and small amounts of neo-nazis... That'd be expensive...

Do I get Oświęcim as well? That place could help will the bills.

Now, acquiring the mediterranean bits of France - that would be a deal.

Another holiday through the Ardenne then?

So they want to give Silesia back to us? XD

*Runs*

The Poles had it first, silly. The switching of it's control did not start at either world war.

no. It's something our current government is doing, and has been since they were "elected". I'm not very happy about it.
I'm not surprised. Without meaning to be rude, I've not heard a single good thing about your government at all.

Well, I guess they deserve a month, i mean, after being occupied, reoccupied, destroyed, etc by Germany.
I hardly think today's Germany is responsible for the Nazi regime, but I suppose people in Poland might feel differently.

All I know is that anyone who thinks the Poles ran Auschwitz deserves a sound beating.
QF Mother-fucking T. Who are these morons who think this? That's irresponsible to the point of criminal.

Seriously. The only people that stupid would clearly be...

Ah, well, I won't say it.
....Stupid people? :)

All I know is that anyone who thinks the Poles ran Auschwitz deserves a sound beating.

Seriously. The only people that stupid would clearly be...

Ah, well, I won't say it.

Could someone please explain to me why it's okay for Japan to call Iwo Jima "Iwo To" but it's not okay for Poland to call Auschwitz "German Auschwitz"? Aren't both equally pointless?

Seriously. The only people that stupid would clearly be...

Ah, well, I won't say it.

But we all know who it is. :p

Seriously, some folks are just plain dumb.

Could someone please explain to me why it's okay for Japan to call Iwo Jima "Iwo To" but it's not okay for Poland to call Auschwitz "German Auschwitz"? Aren't both equally pointless?
Both are perfectly acceptable in my opinion; Both are on the territory of the respective countries, so who are we to tell them no?

You might want to check out this link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4863026.stm
In short: unbelievable as it might be, yes, Auschwitz is sometimes referred to as "Polish concentration camp". There is a lot of people who don't know much about WWII, but know a lot about Polish antisemitism, which was widespread before the war. So the wrong connection is sometimes made automatically. Proposed name of the camp is "Former Nazi German Concentration Camp Auschwitz-Birkenau" so there will be no place for misunderstanding.

Could someone please explain to me why it's okay for Japan to call Iwo Jima "Iwo To" but it's not okay for Poland to call Auschwitz "German Auschwitz"? Aren't both equally pointless?

Wouldn't a closer equivalent either be changing Auchwitz to 'something local and equally Polish' or, Iwo Jima to 'Americans invaded us here'? depending on the way you look at it, of course.

One issue is about returning an islands original name, while the other is the Polish government having discovered it's silly season and trying to wind up the Germans. So yes, both pointless, but in different ways.

Could someone please explain to me why it's okay for Japan to call Iwo Jima "Iwo To" but it's not okay for Poland to call Auschwitz "German Auschwitz"? Aren't both equally pointless?

Exactly my thought. In fact, I thought this thread was brought up to test the overwhelming indifference shown to the Iwo Jima/ Iwo To name change.

My first reaction was: yay for the ducks again!

But if they make it "Nazi German" rather than just "German" then I don't have a problem with it. I think the latter would be a bit unfair in the current situation and after everything that has happened since.

As for the Iwo Jima thing, I think the difference is that the Japanese weren't about to call it the "site where Americans killed thousands of people", as true as that may be. It's not about the name change, it's about the actual name it will be changed to.

On any other level there is no reason to oppose it.

This proves that the polish dont get out much. :)

I'm not surprised. Without meaning to be rude, I've not heard a single good thing about your government at all.

It's hardly rude to me at all. I, along with most poles do not approve of my country's current government.

You might want to check out this link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4863026.stm
In short: unbelievable as it might be, yes, Auschwitz is sometimes referred to as "Polish concentration camp". There is a lot of people who don't know much about WWII, but know a lot about Polish antisemitism, which was widespread before the war. So the wrong connection is sometimes made automatically. Proposed name of the camp is "Former Nazi German Concentration Camp Auschwitz-Birkenau" so there will be no place for misunderstanding.
Sick... Ignorance in any form is sad, but this is just... Offensive.

1. Anyone who thinks Auschwitz is in Germany is an idiot.
2. Anyone who knows Auschwitz was in Poland but think Poland ran the camp is an even bigger idiot.
3. The Polish government (which I admittedly know next to nothign about...) is backwards.
4. How exactly is Poland's government set up?
5. And how are there BROTHERS as president and prime minister?
6. Whatever the reason the Polish (the government, not the people) are trying to piss the Germans off for, it's getting old.

1. Anyone who thinks Auschwitz is in Germany is an idiot.
2. Anyone who knows Auschwitz was in Poland but think Poland ran the camp is an even bigger idiot.
3. The Polish government (which I admittedly know next to nothign about...) is backwards.
4. How exactly is Poland's government set up?
5. And how are there BROTHERS as president and prime minister?
6. Whatever the reason the Polish (the government, not the people) are trying to piss the Germans off for, it's getting old.


QFT
See above answer.
No shit.
Click here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland#Politics)
Because one said he wouldn't run if the other ran, and he broke the promise.
Well, do you honestly think that they know that?

Could someone please explain to me why it's okay for Japan to call Iwo Jima "Iwo To" but it's not okay for Poland to call Auschwitz "German Auschwitz"? Aren't both equally pointless?

I think the difference is that with Iwo-Jima, Iwo-To is the original name and they're just reverting the name back to its original, whereas with Auschwitz, they're changing it to something new, even if keeping an aspect of the old name.

1. Anyone who thinks Auschwitz is in Germany is an idiot.

Can't help thinking you're being more than a little unfair there. Even leaving aside that it's to do with knowledge rather than intelligence, i don't think lack of knowledge about which country a particular concentration camp happened to be sited in is a sign of any particularly egregious ignorance. It's not the sort of thing that ever really becomes an issue, except in circumstances like this, whether it happened to be in to be in Poland as opposed to say eastern Germany.

*Insert Polack Joke Here*

Does that mean someone's assuming that Poland wasn't Germany's bitch throughout WW2?

Probably the 1st and 2nd Polish corps in England and the 1st and 2nd Polish armies in the USSR would argue.

My mouth is stilling hanging open at the very idea that people think that the Poles were responsible for Auschwitz.

*shakes head in amazement*

Could someone please explain to me why it's okay for Japan to call Iwo Jima "Iwo To" but it's not okay for Poland to call Auschwitz "German Auschwitz"? Aren't both equally pointless?
It's the reasoning behind it. I didn't think anyone was really stupid enough to think that Poland had anything to do with the holocaust, other than having some of it happen on their occupied territory. And I guess there might have been a few collaborators.
You might want to check out this link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4863026.stm
In short: unbelievable as it might be, yes, Auschwitz is sometimes referred to as "Polish concentration camp". There is a lot of people who don't know much about WWII, but know a lot about Polish antisemitism, which was widespread before the war. So the wrong connection is sometimes made automatically. Proposed name of the camp is "Former Nazi German Concentration Camp Auschwitz-Birkenau" so there will be no place for misunderstanding.

But evidently I was wrong about how stupid people can be.

Lol, Poland now trying to wash their hands of the holocaust. It should be known that as in all of Europe, the holocaust would never have happened if their weren't eager Nazi collaborators in the occupied/aligned countries that were more than willing to help in handing over Jews, Communists, ethnic minorities etc. Recent information shows the Polish security forces actively helped the Germans in the Warsaw ghetto, and in deporting Jews/minorities to concentration camps, and even in the administration of them, as did most countries under Nazi control.

Wow, is all I have to say. Goodness, why change the name? Even if they want to try to clear their name when they have no reason to do so, it is history. No one should forget Auschwitz and its horrors. Those who suffered deserve to be remembered.

Can't help thinking you're being more than a little unfair there. Even leaving aside that it's to do with knowledge rather than intelligence, i don't think lack of knowledge about which country a particular concentration camp happened to be sited in is a sign of any particularly egregious ignorance. It's not the sort of thing that ever really becomes an issue, except in circumstances like this, whether it happened to be in to be in Poland as opposed to say eastern Germany.

Yeah... true.

Probably the 1st and 2nd Polish corps in England and the 1st and 2nd Polish armies in the USSR would argue.

While I am not arguing that Poland was "Germany's bitch" (although in terms of the Holocaust, they did far more than their fair share helping due to deep rooted anti-Semitism that existed in Poland long before the Nazis arrived), I can't help but feel that there is something wrong with an argument based on people that weren't "in Poland".

We don't say that Iraq was an ally of Britain and the United States in the 1990s despite the exile governments in London.

I hardly think today's Germany is responsible for the Nazi regime, but I suppose people in Poland might feel differently.

Only the stupid ones.

Could someone please explain to me why it's okay for Japan to call Iwo Jima "Iwo To" but it's not okay for Poland to call Auschwitz "German Auschwitz"? Aren't both equally pointless?

I don't think people are saying that it isn't okay. (or at least not that I have noticed) I think it's more everyone is confused as to why this is nessicary and are amazed that it is actually a mistake that is made.

Err is Poland trying to milk all of the sympathy it can out of World War 2 or what?

"we need more voting rights..."
"remember, Germany abused us"

I mean ffs it was sad. But does it need going over again and again? No.

I don't think people are saying that it isn't okay. (or at least not that I have noticed) I think it's more everyone is confused as to why this is nessicary and are amazed that it is actually a mistake that is made.

I'm saying it isn't OK.

I'm saying it isn't OK.

Nevermind.

So, why do you think that you get to determine what countries get to name their territory?

All I know is that anyone who thinks the Poles ran Auschwitz deserves a sound beating.

*slowly steps away hiding his anti-nazi party 1930 poland banner*

Nevermind.

So, why do you think that you get to determine what countries get to name their territory?

See Colbert and Northern M0 Danube bridge.

That man has opened Pandora's box on that matter :D

Nevermind.

So, why do you think that you get to determine what countries get to name their territory?

I never said I did. I can call something wrong and still have no actual power to change it. Although in this case, considering I had relatives die there, I feel a bit more personal about it.

I petition to rename Auschwitz as "Super Nazi Fun Center"

Ok, as long as we rename eastern Germany and western Poland "Scene of Soviet and Polish war crimes".

I think people need to realize in the scheme of antisemitism, it wasn't just purely a Nazi German thing that was imported across Europe, it's been around for a long time. I mean in the Soviet Union, partly because of the anti-antisemitic hysteria being stirred up, Jews were beaten to death in the streets as an every day thing. Moreover, the far-right-wing collaborators did far more damage in terms of deaths (in name of Nazism) in WWII than the SS alone, that is an important fact to remember, also that Poland was a hotbed of anti-antisemitism back then.

I think people need to realize in the scheme of antisemitism, it wasn't just purely a Nazi German thing that was imported across Europe, it's been around for a long time. I mean in the Soviet Union, partly because of the anti-antisemitic hysteria being stirred up, Jews were beaten to death in the streets as an every day thing. Moreover, the far-right-wing collaborators did far more damage in terms of deaths (in name of Nazism) in WWII than the SS alone, that is an important fact to remember, also that Poland was a hotbed of anti-antisemitism back then.

Thats true, Eastern Europe was a hotbed of anti-semitic activity ever since the King of Poland said that the Jews would be free from persecution if they came to live there in the 1300s. That is not to mention the various Pogroms in Russia and the 'Doctors Plot'.

(although that last one can be chalked up to Stalins Paranoia(again))

All I know is that anyone who thinks the Poles ran Auschwitz deserves a sound beating.

Exactly.

If we catered to that group in all things, we'd probably have to cut the corners off of toast just to be sure no one hurts themselves. :p

Oh dear... Poland is starting to slide down a very dangerous way.

Horror! Renaming Auschwitz! Whatever shall we do!

I think they should tear the place down and start a shoppingm all, FWIW.

To Andaras Prime:
I will not call you to name the sources and I will not call you a liar because your record shows that you live entirely inside your head. Yes, in your fantasy version of history things might have happened as you describe them.
But the fact that someone believed you forces me to answer.

1. The fact that in almost every country (with the notable exception of Netherlands) there were villains willing to help Nazis kill Jews doesnt' make the vast majority of the normal decent people responsible for Holocaust.
2. Poland was the only country in Europe in which hiding the Jews was punishable by death. For the whole household. Very often on the spot. Yet of the Righteous Among the Nations the Polish are the most numerous. In case you don't know what I'm talking about, follow this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteous_Among_the_Nations#Count_by_country
3. The only "Polish security forces" that existed under the occupation was the Blue Police http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Police, German controlled police force numbering around 12 000. Please read the linked article for information of their inolvement in Holocaust.
4. Polish priests were ordered by the Polish church authorities to give false baptism certificates to any Jew asking for it (that not all of them complied is a shame for the church and the consequence of its antisemitic stance before the war).
5. Polish government organized efort to help the Jewish citizens and managed to save about 75 000 of them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BBegota
Your ignorance - and I'm giving you benefit of the doubt there - is insulting for all who were opposing the Holocaust. Including my family - my wife's grandmother saved Jewish infants carrying them out of the ghetto tied to her legs under the skirt.
To OuroborosCobra:
Also the 400 000 members of the resistance movement would disagree with you about the Poland being complacent with Hitler:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armia_Krajowa

Your still ignoring the fact that it was aligned nations like Vichy, Romania and the like who deported the minorities to be killed, the holocaust would not have happened if their was not a strong antisemitic stance in Europe, even without Nazism it still existed. Your also ignoring the fact that pro-fascist states set up by the Nazis in the occupied territories helped the Germans in the holocaust etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_during_World_War_II

Good you linked the article, it helps explain the whole thing. This one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_%28responsibility%29#The_response_of_individual_states does it even better. I don't argue that there were countries in Europe besides Nazi Germany who are too responsible for the Shoah. After all, the example of Bulgaria shows that even being the ally to Hitler didn't necessarily imply participation in Holocaust (and the fate of macedonian Jews shows that concentrating on countrys own citizens might finally drag it down to that). But I opposed strongly to such a broad generalization and equalling prewar antisemitism with automatic responsibility for the fate of Jews.
That being said, I agree that the antisemitic atmosphere often helped the Nazis, even without actual intention of doing so, if only by intimidating the victims who believed they will get no help from their fellow citizens.

It's hardly rude to me at all. I, along with most poles do not approve of my country's current government.
Don't we all...

1. Anyone who thinks Auschwitz is in Germany is an idiot.
2. Anyone who knows Auschwitz was in Poland but think Poland ran the camp is an even bigger idiot.
3. The Polish government (which I admittedly know next to nothign about...) is backwards.
4. How exactly is Poland's government set up?
5. And how are there BROTHERS as president and prime minister?
6. Whatever the reason the Polish (the government, not the people) are trying to piss the Germans off for, it's getting old.
1) Not sure about that one
2) Strongly Agree
3) Strongly Agree
4) It's a parliamentary sytem
5) They tricked the small part of the country that actually votes into thinking
that one would run and the other would not. I knew they were just playing tricks though.
6) Agreed. It bothers me that my country is run by guys who care more about pissin the germans off than anything else.

I repeat my suggestion.

Bulldoze Auschwitz and build a shopping mall.

I think this international ritualization of, and communal worshipping of the images of the Holocaust must end.

For the record, I am both Jewish and an Israeli citizen, and so cannot be accused of antisemitism.

Horror! Renaming Auschwitz! Whatever shall we do!

I'm pretty sure he/she is not talking about this. It's more of how the Kaczyński twins seem to think their duty as president and prime minister is to piss the Germans as much as possible. They love using World War two as an example for this, but there were other situtations as well (for example the demanded that Germeny punish the writer of a satire article against him. Germany refused, saying the supported press freedom, and then the situation got worse. Then, a bit later, the same happened with Italy, but Kaczyński did not make it into as much of a mess as last time (probably because it wasn't Germany).

I hardly think today's Germany is responsible for the Nazi regime, but I suppose people in Poland might feel differently.

Only the stupid ones. Like the current Government.

I smell Kaczyński here...

I don't know... *sniffs* Hmm. I smell burnt toast.

Only the stupid ones. Like the current Government.
You really mustn't like your government.:p

But if they make it "Nazi German" rather than just "German" then I don't have a problem with it. I think the latter would be a bit unfair in the current situation and after everything that has happened since.

How about just "Nazi"? It wasn't restricted to Germans. Most European nations had people working in the SS (Ukrainians, Romanians, French, Russians, Finns, Balts...)

I repeat my suggestion.

Bulldoze Auschwitz and build a shopping mall.

I think this international ritualization of, and communal worshipping of the images of the Holocaust must end.

For the record, I am both Jewish and an Israeli citizen, and so cannot be accused of antisemitism.

I don't have time to list everything that's wrong with your idea, but to start with one that has nothing to do with remembering the holocaust (since that might help it get to you quicker), the people of Poland are not in need of a shopping mall in the middle of nowhere.

I don't have time to list everything that's wrong with your idea, but to start with one that has nothing to do with remembering the holocaust (since that might help it get to you quicker), the people of Poland are not in need of a shopping mall in the middle of nowhere.


That's a point.

Note there's a difference between 'remembering' something and making national cult of it like Israel has. You haven't received an Israeli education, I have.

The whole idea that the entire world should gasp in horror in memory of the Holocaust... why the Holocaust? Why not 'the genocides of the 20th century'? Do you know that only about 2.5% of genocide victims (including everything, not just the German genocides) were Jews? Why should we not talk about the Armenian genocides, the Chechen genocide (by Stalin), the genocide of Jews Stalin planned, but did not execute, the German war crimes in Belgium, the Cultural Revolution... do I need to go on?

I don't have time to list everything that's wrong with your idea, but to start with one that has nothing to do with remembering the holocaust (since that might help it get to you quicker), the people of Poland are not in need of a shopping mall in the middle of nowhere.
How could you know unless you did it?

It might make the former site of Auschwitz, which is a bit sad and all, into a happier place, which would probably do wonders for the morale of everyone on the entire planet.

The camp may have been German run, but the Poles weren't that much nicer to the Jews than the Germans. Even after the horrors of the Holocaust were made known to the world, the Poles kept on with their attitudes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krak%C3%B3w_pogrom

Sure Auschwitz was a German camp, but the Poles weren't innocents in the Holocaust. At the very least, the Poles were acquiescent during the Holocaust. At the worst, they were willing collaborators. Now I realize there were resistance members and other citizens who risked their lives to save people from the Holocaust. Those people were the minority though.
http://isurvived.org/InTheNews/Editorial_Remarks-Poland.html#Remarks

How could you know unless you did it?

It might make the former site of Auschwitz, which is a bit sad and all, into a happier place, which would probably do wonders for the morale of everyone on the entire planet.

Except that it SHOULD be a sad place. Trying to forget it happened only dooms us to repeat its mistakes.

The camp may have been German run, but the Poles weren't that much nicer to the Jews than the Germans. Even after the horrors of the Holocaust were made known to the world, the Poles kept on with their attitudes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krak%C3%B3w_pogrom

Sure Auschwitz was a German camp, but the Poles weren't innocents in the Holocaust. At the very least, the Poles were acquiescent during the Holocaust. At the worst, they were willing collaborators. Now I realize there were resistance members and other citizens who risked their lives to save people from the Holocaust. Those people were the minority though.
http://isurvived.org/InTheNews/Editorial_Remarks-Poland.html#Remarks


Read Maus I and Maus II (a comic book rendition of the Holocaust) by Art Speigelman (spelling?). It is sublime. The jews are portrayed as mice, the nazis as cats the the poles as pigs.

You'll find that, according to at least one eyewitness account - that of death camp survivor Vladek Speigelman, the Poles either acquiesced or collaborated with the Nazis.

You'll also find that the Jews collaborated with the Nazis too. Read the sections on the Jewish Police. Heartbreaking.

The whole idea that the entire world should gasp in horror in memory of the Holocaust... why the Holocaust? Why not 'the genocides of the 20th century'? Do you know that only about 2.5% of genocide victims (including everything, not just the German genocides) were Jews? Why should we not talk about the Armenian genocides, the Chechen genocide (by Stalin), the genocide of Jews Stalin planned, but did not execute, the German war crimes in Belgium, the Cultural Revolution... do I need to go on?

Good point. I don't support the existance of such a cult either.

The camp may have been German run, but the Poles weren't that much nicer to the Jews than the Germans. Even after the horrors of the Holocaust were made known to the world, the Poles kept on with their attitudes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krak%C3%B3w_pogrom
I suppose sentencing the responsible for the pogroms to death (not all of them unfortunately) doesn't change a thing - "the Poles" are responsible for the Holocaust anyway.

Sure Auschwitz was a German camp, but the Poles weren't innocents in the Holocaust. At the very least, the Poles were acquiescent during the Holocaust. At the worst, they were willing collaborators. Now I realize there were resistance members and other citizens who risked their lives to save people from the Holocaust. Those people were the minority though.
http://isurvived.org/InTheNews/Editorial_Remarks-Poland.html#Remarks

Poland was the place of the Holocaust and those who survived told terrible stories. For six years of the occupation Germans encouraged the persecution of Jews and punished helping them. The horrors of war and occupation brought forward the worst in the people and yes, some of them did collaborate with the Germans and turned up the Jews to the Nazis for money. But it was punishable by death by the underground Land Army. Saying that "the Poles" as a whole are responsible for the Holocaust is wrong for exactly the same reasons as saying that the Jews are responsible for something. That type of thinking is what brought the Holocaust.

The whole idea that the entire world should gasp in horror in memory of the Holocaust... why the Holocaust? Why not 'the genocides of the 20th century'? Do you know that only about 2.5% of genocide victims (including everything, not just the German genocides) were Jews? Why should we not talk about the Armenian genocides, the Chechen genocide (by Stalin), the genocide of Jews Stalin planned, but did not execute, the German war crimes in Belgium, the Cultural Revolution... do I need to go on?
QFT.

While we shouldn't minimise the damaging affects of the Jewish Holocaust, it isn't right that is the considered "the" Holocaust when there are many more which are equally as tragic and devastating in their own right. All should be given equal time in history class. The numbers mean nothing because genocide is genocide when large swathes of people are killed for no reason other than simply existing.

I think what sets the Holocaust apart from other genocides is how "scientific" the reasoning for it was and how industrial the execution. The way it stripped the status of human beings from its victims (Jews and otherwise) gave it a whole different moral quality in my opinion. At the time many collaborated in the design and execution not because they hated the victims, but because they thought they were doing a good thing for the human species (and their "race" in particular). Plus, it happened in a developed country where one would have thought this sort of thing wasn't possible.

I think it'll become more and more difficult to support that argument as the people who saw it themselves are dying, and you end up with a bunch of statistics and numbers that make it look like just another genocide.

Cult or no cult, I think that it still is a special example of what human beings are capable of, moreso than other genocides simply because for so many hatred or fear never entered into it.

That's a point.

Note there's a difference between 'remembering' something and making national cult of it like Israel has. You haven't received an Israeli education, I have.

The whole idea that the entire world should gasp in horror in memory of the Holocaust... why the Holocaust? Why not 'the genocides of the 20th century'? Do you know that only about 2.5% of genocide victims (including everything, not just the German genocides) were Jews? Why should we not talk about the Armenian genocides, the Chechen genocide (by Stalin), the genocide of Jews Stalin planned, but did not execute, the German war crimes in Belgium, the Cultural Revolution... do I need to go on?

You know, when I say this IDF just invokes Godwin on me.

The whole idea that the entire world should gasp in horror in memory of the Holocaust... why the Holocaust? Why not 'the genocides of the 20th century'? Do you know that only about 2.5% of genocide victims (including everything, not just the German genocides) were Jews? Why should we not talk about the Armenian genocides, the Chechen genocide (by Stalin), the genocide of Jews Stalin planned, but did not execute, the German war crimes in Belgium, the Cultural Revolution... do I need to go on?

It's the industrial nature of the holocaust that frightens people. The idea of death factories. That's what made the holocaust different. Had Hitler just starved the jews to death or something, he probably would have got away with it. (Well as much as anyone who tries to invade the whole world gets away with anything).

It's the industrial nature of the holocaust that frightens people. The idea of death factories. That's what made the holocaust different. Had Hitler just starved the jews to death or something, he probably would have got away with it. (Well as much as anyone who tries to invade the whole world gets away with anything).

I have to disagree, murder is murder, and some of the other genocides were just as horrific, you should also not forget that the Holocaust wasn't all Jews, their were suspected communists/social democrats, Roma, dissidents and other minorities. I don't think any dispersions should be cast of the plight of the Jews in WWII, but a little recognition for the 'forgotten' genocide victims of this century is well deserved to the millions of victims I think. Why is it that when we hear about WWII or atrocities of this century we only remember the Jews, not many people would know about the Armenians of the Caucus, Serbs etc etc.

I think it's right to say that the modern state of Israel has made a big national cult of it, whenever another country is perceived to be threatening them it's a sinister plot to finish the holocaust, when a Palestinian tries to fight for his people, it's 'antisemitism' and 'terrorism', ignoring the fact that Israel is not really a clear cut ethnic state, far from it. I saw a documentary like program on tv the other night and it interviewed a young Israeli in the military, and when he refered to suicide bombings on buses in Tel Aviv he likened them to the death chambers, with 'everyone crammed inside to be killed', a Israeli government official said that Iran having a nuclear weapon would be be like them having a 'flying concentration camp' I mean what's with this obsession with the Holocaust?

I have to disagree, murder is murder, and some of the other genocides were just as horrific, you should also not forget that the Holocaust wasn't all Jews, their were suspected communists/social democrats, Roma, dissidents and other minorities. I don't think any dispersions should be cast of the plight of the Jews in WWII, but a little recognition for the 'forgotten' genocide victims of this century is well deserved to the millions of victims I think. Why is it that when we hear about WWII or atrocities of this century we only remember the Jews, not many people would know about the Armenians of the Caucus, Serbs etc etc.

I think it's right to say that the modern state of Israel has made a big national cult of it, whenever another country is perceived to be threatening them it's a sinister plot to finish the holocaust, when a Palestinian tries to fight for his people, it's 'antisemitism' and 'terrorism', ignoring the fact that Israel is not really a clear cut ethnic state, far from it. I saw a documentary like program on tv the other night and it interviewed a young Israeli in the military, and when he refered to suicide bombings on buses in Tel Aviv he likened them to the death chambers, with 'everyone crammed inside to be killed', a Israeli government official said that Iran having a nuclear weapon would be be like them having a 'flying concentration camp' I mean what's with this obsession with the Holocaust?

I hear what you are saying. And I am not minimizing the deaths of other people. I am simply pointing out that the methods used for the holocaust were much more ruthless and industrial, which is why is still inspires fear to this day. You also have to add to that that it was the Germans, who are an otherwise civil and law abiding people, that went mad and constructed execution factories in 'mitteldeutschland' and started to slaughter people wholesale based upon their religion, politics, or because they just didn't like them. (But really mostly because they were jews). It shocked everyone that the veneer of civilizations was so thin. After all, you expect the turks to behave that way, but not Europeans.

I also hear what you are saying about Israelis, but given their history, they depend upon the national myth that everyone in the entire world wants to drive them into the sea, and that jews can't ever be safe without their own homeland.

I also hear what you are saying about Israelis, but given their history, they depend upon the national myth that everyone in the entire world wants to drive them into the sea, and that jews can't ever be safe without their own homeland.

Logically the Kurds, Armenians and just about every other random rank and file gaggle of ethnic minorities could claim they aren't safe without their own homeland.

Another sad irony is that concentration camps were built in Poland because of its historical acceptance of the Jewish culture. It was Ladislaus I (Wladyslaw the Elbow-High) who reformed the legal code to geive Jews equal standing with Christians, and his son Casimir who guranteed their safety and welcomed them during the Black Plague. To say that the Poles were accomplices of the Holocaust is simply wrong. They did what they could, but a history of political fragmentation prevented them from mounting a significant governemnt resistance to the Nazis, forcing them to use Guerilla tactics to fight the occupation. Yes, some helped the Nazis. The same thing happened in France, occupied areas of the Soviet Union, and other Nazi dominated regions.

Logically the Kurds, Armenians and just about every other random rank and file gaggle of ethnic minorities could claim they aren't safe without their own homeland.

Umm, isn't that exactly what they claim?

Umm, isn't that exactly what they claim?

The same as that of the Jews - NONE. The Biblical one is total bunk, after all, it's wrong on several other topics. *nods*

The same as that of the Jews - NONE. The Biblical one is total bunk, after all, it's wrong on several other topics. *nods*

It has nothing to do with the bunkum bible. I'm talking about the concept of a sovereign area for a specific ethnic groups owing to past oppression. The Kurds certainly make that claim. And a large part of Zionism is rooted in the same fear.

Granted it's a failure of integration, but that is why the Holocaust myth also looms so large in the Israeli mind.

The same as that of the Jews - NONE. The Biblical one is total bunk, after all, it's wrong on several other topics. *nods*

Biblical what is bunk? There was an actual historical Kingdom of Israel, not just a story in the Bible. I suggest you look it up.

Logically the Kurds, Armenians and just about every other random rank and file gaggle of ethnic minorities could claim they aren't safe without their own homeland.

And that's exactly true.

And that's exactly true.

Nobody IS safe without their own homeland. That's why I support confederationism; nations within nations.

Same Poles who made a stink at the EU recently by mentioning the war, demanding extra representation because Germany killed so many poles?

Yes, those. I expect Putin asking EU membership, then saying that Russia must have 60% of the EP seats because of WW2 casualties.
:rolleyes:

I don't understand the Poles. Have they joined the EU just to destroy it? They try to fuel hatred between the nations. Haven't they had enough of it? Haven't they seen what has happened in Jugoslavia?

Even the French are friends with the Germans now! The French! Invaded by Germany in 1870, 1914 and 1940! And Germany was in turn invaded by France countless times!
I hope that the Poles will quit it ASAP and give a sound kick into Their Dear Twin Duck Leaders' ass.

While I am not arguing that Poland was "Germany's bitch" (although in terms of the Holocaust, they did far more than their fair share helping due to deep rooted anti-Semitism that existed in Poland long before the Nazis arrived), I can't help but feel that there is something wrong with an argument based on people that weren't "in Poland".

We don't say that Iraq was an ally of Britain and the United States in the 1990s despite the exile governments in London.

They were people the fled the occupation to continue the fight(like my granddad). If they were bitches as suggested, they would have stayed.

For the record, I am both Jewish and an Israeli citizen, and so cannot be accused of antisemitism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Shahak - An Israeli writer often accused of anti-Semitism - and a Holocaust survivor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Fischer - A Jewish (halachically, not religiously) Holocaust denier! WTF.

I don't understand the Poles. Have they joined the EU just to destroy it? They try to fuel hatred between the nations.
Plese, will you never stop? How many times have I to tell you that "the Poles", if we dare to use such a broad term, are fed up with their government? That said government is behaving in a way not predicted by its voters?
Kaczynski fiasco will be used as an example of weaknesses of democracy for a long time.

Plese, will you never stop? How many times have I to tell you that "the Poles", if we dare to use such a broad term, are fed up with their government? That said government is behaving in a way not predicted by its voters?
Kaczynski fiasco will be used as an example of weaknesses of democracy for a long time.

Of course, by "Poles" I mean "the legitimate Polish government, the legitimate Polish parliament, the citizens of Poland who choose that government". No offence meant, but looks like Poland chose them - or at least chose the laws that they exploited to become PM and PotR.
If you read my previous post entirely, I'm sure this would be very clear, since I call on the Poles to send TDTDL away.

When Berlusconi was PM of Italy, I felt that also as personal failure of mine although I didn't vote for him, since I, my party, and a lot of other people weren't able to persuade enough people not to vote for him.

I don't the opposition parading through the streets of Warsaw, though. :( Maybe the media here don't follow Polish politics enough?

Of course, by "Poles" I mean "the legitimate Polish government, the legitimate Polish parliament, the citizens of Poland who choose that government". No offence meant, but looks like Poland chose them - or at least chose the laws that they exploited to become PM and PotR.
I'm not aware of the laws that would prevent idiotic twins from becoming PM and President anywhere in the world.
Did I write "idiotic"? Oh dear, that must be my brain trying to control the fingers again.
When Berlusconi was PM of Italy, I felt that also as personal failure of mine although I didn't vote for him, since I, my party, and a lot of other people weren't able to persuade enough people not to vote for him.
Then you know how I feel.
I don't the opposition parading through the streets of Warsaw, though. :( Maybe the media here don't follow Polish politics enough.
There are sometimes protests on the streets but they won't accomplish much, the Ducks are legally elected and they know how they are disliked. We just have to wait until the next elections. :(

Isn't Jesus King of Poland, or some such equal daftness?

Isn't Jesus King of Poland, or some such equal daftness?
Oh yes – Mary is the (honorary) Queen of Poland. Since 16th century or so. There were some catholic conservatives who wanted to make Jesus King of Poland but they were told that mother and son cannot be Queen and King of Poland, because there would be no end to stupid jokes. :headbang:

Oh yes – Mary is the (honorary) Queen of Poland. Since 16th century or so. There were some catholic conservatives who wanted to make Jesus King of Poland but they were told that mother and son cannot be Queen and King of Poland, because there would be no end to stupid jokes. :headbang:

I believe the only other country that has a deceased person as their still head of state is the DPRK.

Oh yes – Mary is the (honorary) Queen of Poland. Since 16th century or so. There were some catholic conservatives who wanted to make Jesus King of Poland but they were told that mother and son cannot be Queen and King of Poland, because there would be no end to stupid jokes. :headbang:

Ah, so he's not actually King. But your explanation makes it even funnier.

I'm not aware of the laws that would prevent idiotic twins from becoming PM and President anywhere in the world.
Did I write "idiotic"? Oh dear, that must be my brain trying to control the fingers again.

Actually, here in Italy we even lack laws prohibiting criminals to become MP. Example: Cesare Previti. He has a definitive sentence for fixing a trial, he's on home arrest due to old age, but he still is a MP and hasn't been expelled from the Camera dei Deputati yet.

Then you know how I feel.
I do.

There are sometimes protests on the streets but they won't accomplish much, the Ducks are legally elected and they know how they are disliked. We just have to wait until the next elections. :(

Well, back in 1994, when Berlusconi's coalition got the majority for the first time, huge opposition and workers' union rallies managed to make his allies of the Lega Nord change side and make the first Berlusconi cabinet fall. So, there is some hope. We weren't that lucky in 2001-2006, though, he had a secure majority.

Yes, I hate Berlusconi.

Ah, so he's not actually King. But your explanation makes it even funnier.

If his mom is Queen, he's Crown Prince, and will become King when she dies.:p

Even the French are friends with the Germans now! The French! Invaded by Germany in 1870, 1914 and 1940! And Germany was in turn invaded by France countless times!

Yeah, well, it's not settled. "Burn the palatinate". I'll burn your goddamn face, fucking France.

Yeah, well, it's not settled. "Burn the palatinate". I'll burn your goddamn face, fucking France.

So, you want to start ANOTHER war for bloody Elsaß-Lothringen/Alsace-Lorraine AGAIN?
Please, go back to the XIX century, where you and your ideas belong, and leave contemporary Europe to people with some more sense, like Mitterrand, Chirac, Sarkozy, Kohl, Schroeder and Merkel.

Ah, so he's not actually King. But your explanation makes it even funnier.
That was the intention. It's better to laugh than to weep.

Yeah, well, it's not settled. "Burn the palatinate". I'll burn your goddamn face, fucking France.

Last I looked, France had those Triomphe submarines. They may, or may not, be bad news for anyone who declares war on France.

So, you want to start ANOTHER war for bloody Elsaß-Lothringen/Alsace-Lorraine AGAIN?
Please, go back to the XIX century, where you and your ideas belong, and leave contemporary Europe to people with some more sense, like Mitterrand, Chirac, Sarkozy, Kohl, Schroeder and Merkel.

Risottia, the dumbest 19th century leader had more sense in his left asscheek then Mitterrand, Chirac, Sarkozy, Kohl, Schroeder and Merkel combined have in their entire bodies.

Last I looked, France had those Triomphe submarines. They may, or may not, be bad news for anyone who declares war on France.

They also have these new missile which fly so fast their incredibly difficult to intercept.

So, you want to start ANOTHER war for bloody Elsaß-Lothringen/Alsace-Lorraine AGAIN?

Yes! It's ours! Give it back!

Last I looked, France had those Triomphe submarines. They may, or may not, be bad news for anyone who declares war on France.

Yeah, real worrying. Germany could build it's own ICBM u-boats in a week.

Yes! It's ours! Give it back!

Huh? When did it ever belong to Australia??? :confused:



Yeah, real worrying. Germany could build it's own ICBM u-boats in a week.

Possibly, but why waste money Germany hasn't got?

Risottia, the dumbest 19th century leader had more sense in his left asscheek then Mitterrand, Chirac, Sarkozy, Kohl, Schroeder and Merkel combined have in their entire bodies.

You do realise that Willhelm II of Germany was a 19th century leader, right?
You can like or dislike Mitterand, Chirac, Sarkozy, Kohl, Schroeder and Merkel (personally, I dislike them all quite a lot), but none of them has started a world war yet.

It may also be another sign of Poland not willing to come to terms with how complicit they were in the Holocaust, and how much anti-Semitism ran deep in Poland before the Germans ever showed up.

And before the outrage gets too loud, compare the proportion of polish jews who survived with the proportions in Denmark and Holland. Even the French hid quite a few of their jewish compatriots.

And before the outrage gets too loud, compare the proportion of polish jews who survived with the proportions in Denmark and Holland. Even the French hid quite a few of their jewish compatriots.

Of course it's easier to hide people when you've got wine cellars... just bribe the Germans with a nice bottle of French wine. ;)

You do realise that Willhelm II of Germany was a 19th century leader, right?
You can like or dislike Mitterand, Chirac, Sarkozy, Kohl, Schroeder and Merkel (personally, I dislike them all quite a lot), but none of them has started a world war yet.

Oh, shut it, you self-loathing German. Wilhelm II started as many World Wars as Nicholas II, Poincare and Asquith.

Risottia, the dumbest 19th century leader had more sense in his left asscheek then Mitterrand, Chirac, Sarkozy, Kohl, Schroeder and Merkel combined have in their entire bodies.

Oh yeah. Like Mr."I'm going to pwn Prussia" Napoleon III or Mr."The Double Monarchy is going fine, thank you" Franz Joseph of Habsburg or Mr."I'm going to pwn Austria" Charles Albert of Savoy...:rolleyes: pleeeeze.

See, Mitterrand, Chirac, Sarkozy, Kohl, Schroeder and Merkel haven't fueled a war, yet.

Oh, shut it, you self-loathing German. Wilhelm II started as many World Wars as Nicholas II, Poincare and Asquith.

Why would I loathe myself? I love myself. I just chose to be as realistic as possible in my views, and Willhelm II had managed to totally isolate himself politically within Europe, only maintaining the alliance with Austria which forced the country to begin the war. He was an inbred idiot.

Huh? When did it ever belong to Australia??? :confused:

just as :confused: as you are

So, why do you think that you get to determine what countries get to name their territory?... considering I had relatives die there, I feel a bit more personal about it.Interesting.

Why would I loathe myself? I love myself. I just chose to be as realistic as possible in my views, and Willhelm II had managed to totally isolate himself politically within Europe, only maintaining the alliance with Austria which forced the country to begin the war. He was an inbred idiot.

And yet, it was HIS fault that Russia declared war on Germany's ally?

I hear what you are saying. And I am not minimizing the deaths of other people. I am simply pointing out that the methods used for the holocaust were much more ruthless and industrial, which is why is still inspires fear to this day.genocides end in mass deaths.. I think some African genocides were more cruel.. because they would rape all the females.. kill all the adults.. cut limbs of all the children.. let them live like that for a couple of months and finish them (after the massacre has been showed to other peoples/racial-groups .. so they know who to fear)

But more recent and more cruel genocides will be forgotten sooner (by most of us).. I am not worried about the Holocaust cos it will be kept alive by the Mass Media (Hollywood/FOX/CNN/AP).

They were people the fled the occupation to continue the fight(like my granddad). If they were bitches as suggested, they would have stayed.

When stating "Poland was Germany's bitch" (which as I already told you I was not arguing for or against, just pointing out a flaw in your argument, a flaw you still have), it never means the entire country, just a large number or those in power. People need to figure that out. When it is said, "Germany committed genocide", that statement is true despite the minority of Germans who opposed it. Find better logic.

Yeah, real worrying. Germany could build it's own ICBM u-boats in a week.

Wow, the idiocy of that statement is staggering. Let's see:

1) They are called SLBMs, not ICBMs.

2) Missiles are a high technology piece of hardware that take a LONG time to design, test, etc. if you want a working one, and Germany would be starting without their own existing large rocketry program.

3) SLBMs require a large submarine design with launch tubes, etc. Germany doesn't have any subs large enough to add tubes to, so that would mean building a new boat, and that can take a decade from design to getting into the ocean.

4) Germany doesn't have nuclear warheads. While it would not take them as long as say, North Korea to develop, it would still take many months to years.

Even if you were speaking "metaphorically" or whatever bullshit you try to claim, there is nothing in your statement that approaches reality.

genocides end in mass deaths.. I think some African genocides were more cruel.. because they would rape all the females.. kill all the adults.. cut limbs of all the children.. let them live like that for a couple of months and finish them (after the massacre has been showed to other towns.. so they know who to fear)

But more recent and more cruel genocides will be forgotten sooner (by most of us).. I am not worried about the Holocaust cos it will be kept alive by the Mass Media (Hollywood/FOX/CNN/AP).

I have a feeling you are not understanding one of the major things we mean about "industrialized".

It is different when you are dealing with a backward nation in Africa with soldiers running around doing horrific acts by hand. It is more like what humans have been doing since recorded history began. The Holocaust was different.

The Germans used modern science and technology, and industry. They built literal "factories of death", industrial complexes where live people walked in one side, and then an industrial process killed them, and ashes came out the other. It was an assembly line.

This does make it different, and more chilling, than most of the others.

I have a feeling you are not understanding one of the major things we mean about "industrialized".I dont give a shit about the word "industrialized".

All genocides are evil -but- If you really want to compare (with your "but-it-was-industrialized" crap) I would say If they are going to kill me (and my family) I prefer a quick kill.. Not a DCD style of kill, witnessing your daughters being gang raped, and then amputated with all the other kids.. to be finished a couple months later.

I dont give a shit about the word "industrialized".

All genocides are evil -but- If you really want to compare (with your "but-it-was-industrialized" crap) I would say If they are going to kill me (and my family) I prefer a quick kill.. Not a DCD style of kill, witnessing your daughters being gang raped, and then amputated with all the other kids.. to be finished a couple months later.

Then you have demonstrated your lack of having a brain. The point is what makes the Holocaust unique, and if you don't care, fine, but I don't care much for your opinion.

The point is what makes the Holocaust unique.Thats what the Mass media (Hollywoo/FOX/CNN/AP/etc) has been telling US for ages..

they have been also telling us that the victims were almost all Jews.. consistently ignoring all the other Victims. Yet there is no Proof what % were actually Jews.

my guess is that less than 1% of Hollywood "historical" movies ever mention that the victims were not only Jews.
and less than 5% of the other mass media (and this selective victimization by the media was even worse in the post war years)

Thats what the Mass media (Hollywoo/FOX/CNN/AP/etc) has been telling US for ages..

they have been also telling us that the victims were almost all Jews.. consistently ignoring all the other Victims. Yet there is no Proof what % were actually Jews.

my guess is that less than 1% of Hollywood "historical" movies ever mention that the victims were not only Jews.
and less than 5% of the other mass media (and this selective victimization by the media was even worse in the post war years)

Wow. You get to join the insanity of Holocaust deniers in my book for that dribble.

Wow. You get to join the insanity of Holocaust deniers in my book for that dribble.hey !!!

"in my book" is OcceanDrive©2003-2007 trademarked for da forum
copycat-joe !! ;)
My lawyers will call your lawyers.. :D (yeah right.. like If anything could be trademarked in da interwebs)

I saw an interview with director Billy Wilder. He was talking about his film Stalag 17, which takes place in a German POW camp (not a concentration camp, but still, no fun). When it was released, I believe in 1953, Paramount was going to release it in Germany but in order to not offend the Germans, they were going to make the villains Polish. This was less than ten years after the end of the war.
If there were any other events like this, where people or companies did their best to not offend Germany for economic or political reasons, I can see why Poland would want to make sure no one could mistake Auschwitz for a Polish creation.

I believe the only other country that has a deceased person as their still head of state is the DPRK.

When You do a comparison to DPRK, I can't stop thinking it's a compliment:D

I had to say this! It was stronger than me!

And yet, it was HIS fault that Russia declared war on Germany's ally?

It was his fault in isolating Germany, and in arranging treaties with Austria in a way that left him no room for diplomatic manoeuvers.
He had been alienating all other European powers for decades before the outbreak of the war in his silly efforts to establish Germany as colonial power. He simply was an incapable politician, even giving George W. a run for his money.

Last I looked, France had those Triomphe submarines. They may, or may not, be bad news for anyone who declares war on France.

What if France declares war on France? Everyone wins!

... Except the French...

Huh? When did it ever belong to Australia??? :confused:

I obtained it last week, didn't you hear?

Possibly, but why waste money Germany hasn't got?

Ummm, because we want a Das Boot sequel?

4) Germany doesn't have nuclear warheads. While it would not take them as long as say, North Korea to develop, it would still take many months to years.

Doesn't it still have the U.S.A warheads?

they have been also telling us that the victims were almost all Jews.. consistently ignoring all the other Victims. Yet there is no Proof what % were actually Jews.

About 50-60% were just Jewish (the Ashkenazi group) and they were the ones that most of the effort was spent on eradicating.

Then you have demonstrated your lack of having a brain. The point is what makes the Holocaust unique, and if you don't care, fine, but I don't care much for your opinion.

The fact, in the scheme of historical genocides/mass murders in this century, the Jewish part of the Holocaust is quite small, murder is murder I am afraid, and nothing can justify the Holocaust as the nationalist cult tool it has become today, and an outlet for the current generation of Israeli to rail against their own self-victimization for a event most of them weren't even around for.

Doesn't it still have the U.S.A warheads?

I don't think so. IRBMs were removed from Europe following one of the strategic arms treaties in the late 80s, so away went the Pershing and Pershing II missiles. The nuclear tipped Nike-Hercules batteries (if we even deployed nuclear versions) were removed in the late 1980s also. We haven't had much in the way of battlefield nukes deployed in Europe since the collapse of communism either.

Even if US warheads were there, they are just that, US warheads. Germany can't just take them and put them on a missile of their own, in a U-Boat of their own, and under their own command for deployment and usage.

the Jewish part of the Holocaust is quite small

I'm not even going to touch the rest o your post as it comes from the insane mind that said that. Jews were the primary target of the Holocaust, more than anyone else, and made up well more than 50% of those killed. If you think more than half is a "small part", I'm sorry, but I can't help you.

*Points to Self's post*

Stupid Poles, Auschwitz is now for remembrance of the countless innocents killed there, not for national vendettas.:rolleyes:

Stupid Poles, Auschwitz is now for remembrance of the countless innocents killed there, not for national vendettas.:rolleyes:



Indeed! It seems that people have totally missed the lesson that is to be garnered from the very existence of Auschwitz to begin with.


The point to be stressed is not necessarily WHO did the atrocity, but WHAT the atrocity was. Nazis or Russians or Americans, the point is that the atrocities of the holocaust were committed by humans, and that all humanity is capable of such evil. The fact that the Germans did it is not nearly as important as the fact of what was done.

Indeed! It seems that people have totally missed the lesson that is to be garnered from the very existence of Auschwitz to begin with.


The point to be stressed is not necessarily WHO did the atrocity, but WHAT the atrocity was. Nazis or Russians or Americans, the point is that the atrocities of the holocaust were committed by humans, and that all humanity is capable of such evil. The fact that the Germans did it is not nearly as important as the fact of what was done.Humanity is both capable of both things of extraordinary good and incredible evil.

I'm not even going to touch the rest o your post as it comes from the insane mind that said that. Jews were the primary target of the Holocaust, more than anyone else, and made up well more than 50% of those killed. If you think more than half is a "small part", I'm sorry, but I can't help you.

Actually, it depends on the tally. Somewhere between 11 million and 26 million people were killed. We know that 6 million were Jews, so the percentage depends on the death toll, the exact value of which is unknown.

Actually, it depends on the tally. Somewhere between 11 million and 26 million people were killed. We know that 6 million were Jews, so the percentage depends on the death toll, the exact value of which is unknown.

The German records of the Holocaust are not bad enough to have that wide a range. These guys were meticulous.

The German records of the Holocaust are not bad enough to have that wide a range. These guys were meticulous.

Apparently the number goes up if you factor in things that happened outside of the camps or something. I'm just saying what I read in another thread.

Apparently the number goes up if you factor in things that happened outside of the camps or something. I'm just saying what I read in another thread.

So does the numbers of Jews killed. Drastically.

Humanity is both capable of both things of extraordinary good and incredible evil.


Agreed!

They should change the name, only they're not going far enough!

They should call it Happy Happy Fun Completely Germanic Auschwitz Camp for the Genocidally Challenged. ("Home of the world-famous 7 dollar burger!")

But they won't. Sigh. Just like they rejected my idea that they should call "Ground Zero" as "Terrorist Land" and rebuild it as an amusement park. Sure be a lot more entertaining than just a big memorial and more boring buildings. But nooo.

OK, I'm not funny. So shoot me. :(

Old

So let them. But no one with any intelligence actually thinks that Poland had anything to do with that. Hell, you can just look at the name and tell it was a German facility. Not enough consonants in the name.

Jeez, the Ducks are having a busy few weeks, aren't they...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,490994,00.html
In a radio interview, Poland's prime minister issues an ominous warning about Berlin, implying that contemporary Germany is comparable to the time that saw Adolf Hitler rise to power.

Jeez, the Ducks are having a busy few weeks, aren't they...
That quote from the above source:
But some observers see different motivations coming from the Kaczynskis, including the editorial writers at the Augsburger Allgemeine newspaper, who note: "All the prime minister cares about with his venomous and bile-filled attacks against Germany ... is to help shore up his diminishing popularity in Poland."
explains it pretty well. "The nurses are in protest - gotta call Germans names, that'll surely improve my standing." It's how the Ducks think.
On altogether unrelated note, I can't but condemn the choice of Knut's thermal image for the article link on the right. It looks like a zombie bear.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11291650

So...Opinions?

I don't really think that it adding "German" to the name is really going to change a whole lot.

They've done it now.

It's just the Polish leadership's means of whining at "bad Germany who doesn't give us enough money", to avert the attention of the Polish electors from the upcoming socioeconomical failure.

Fuck the Ducks!

Jeez, the Ducks are having a busy few weeks, aren't they...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,490994,00.html
Is idiocy the primary requirement to be a member of the Polish government?

Jeez, the Ducks are having a busy few weeks, aren't they...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,490994,00.html

Well Weimar could be compared to any number of republics the world over today, so it's not that strange, every country, even today are vulnerable to the demagoguery of far-right hate politics - Poland very much so.