NationStates Jolt Archive

I have a question for those abroad, whats it like setting up a band say in the US or Uk, has anyone who has tried to set up a band encountered a lot of (if seemingly only) timewasters + idiots who turn up but sulk and mutter in themselves ala "Im too cool to be here".

What do you mean by setting up? If you mean getting together with a few mates and attempting some tunes, it's pretty easy, presuming you have friends.

If you mean becoming the next 'big thing', then I dare say that is a little more complicated.

Most of the cats you're going to encounter will be like that. Honestly the best way out of that is to find some other dedicated, driven player and join their band. If you just want to play and not hassle with the bullshit, it might be your only hope. And if you gel with them and gain their respect (and them yours) you start to do your own shit anyway.

All the arts attract flakes, it's the nature of the beast. The flakes don't last but it makes the process a drag.

I have a question for those abroad, whats it like setting up a band say in the US or Uk, has anyone who has tried to set up a band encountered a lot of (if seemingly only) timewasters + idiots who turn up but sulk and mutter in themselves ala "Im too cool to be here".

It's easy to find bassists. Not so easy for good ones.
Hard to find good accompaniasts with piano/keyboard, unless it's a secondary/tertiary relationship to the music.
REALLY, REALLY hard to find a decent drummer.
Hard to find a lead guitar player who can keep time as well as play scales and solos.
A lot of people want to exemplify their "creative spirit" or "chops", but there's a vast majority of one-trick ponies out there, in my experience.
:(

Learn to play all the instruments yourself, record and layer your songs using software, and you're set. No "band" necessary. :p Unless you meant for profit - that's the entertainment industry, and I hear it's a bitch. :p

Learn to play all the instruments yourself, record and layer your songs using software, and you're set. No "band" necessary. :p Unless you meant for profit - that's the entertainment industry, and I hear it's a bitch. :p

Ayup.

REALLY, REALLY hard to find a decent drummer.

:(

BUT, good drummers form the best bands...at least in jazz.

And playing with a good drummer makes ALL the difference in the world.

Learn to play all the instruments yourself, record and layer your songs using software, and you're set. No "band" necessary. :p Unless you meant for profit - that's the entertainment industry, and I hear it's a bitch. :p

This removes two of the coolest things about playing music, interacting with other musicians (who add to and react to what you play) and interacting with an engaged audience (who can drive what you play).

Composing and recording can be cool, but compared to performing they're a disappointing cousin.

BUT, good drummers form the best bands...at least in jazz.

And playing with a good drummer makes ALL the difference in the world.

If you choose to play with one, yes.
I went for several years without for that reason - all rhythm playing essentially, until our current drummer.
:)

It also depends on the band you're lookin for. A rock band would be harder to put together than say a Jazz band (and be good). Most jazz musicians around the age of 17 - 21 are rather talented and if not, they know how to read sheet music pretty easily for accompanyment and ensemble parts.

A rock band, however, very few people can play the guitar. Oh sure there are guys who can play Stairway to Heaven or Nirvana tune on their guitar, but the moment you start speaking in chord structures and tones and keys, they're in a new world.

So, if you want to start a rock band, get 3 or 4 sheets of manuscript paper and right out chord progressions for them to follow. if they can do it, they can do a lot more.

If you choose to play with one, yes.
I went for several years without for that reason - all rhythm playing essentially, until our current drummer.
:)

I'm a horn player, unless I want to be 'romantic atmosphere' I need a rhythm section. I played in a few drumless trios or duos out of necessity, but nothing compares to having a good one behind you. The drumless groups were too hotel lobby...I mean, we were playing 'hotel lobby' kinds of gigs, but still...

I've been in a few punk bands on and off in the last few years. None of them performed a lot, and it's been hard to find a good one to play in (which is a pity, since this summer, I was planning on starting a band and seeing where we could get).

In my experience, the two biggest issues are finding driven musicians with similar, or merely coinciding artistic visions and setting up a good schedule.

In terms of finding members, guitarists are a dime a dozen. Good, stable, rhythm guitarists are hard to find. Too many people wanna be the "Guitar Hero" and none of them want to do the dirty work.

Bass players are easy to find, but a bass player who actually knows jack-shit about music can be hard to find.

Drummers are a pain in the ass to find, and good drummers are next to impossible to find. Maybe it's because drums are hard work with little glory attatched, but drummers are just hard to find and keep around.

Vocalists are not exceptionally hard to find, but good vocalists are practically impossible to find. Any yokel can think he can sing in tune, but very few actually can.

So, if you want to start a rock band, get 3 or 4 sheets of manuscript paper and right out chord progressions for them to follow. if they can do it, they can do a lot more.

I would actually contest this. Too much theory can make a rock guitarist useless. Rock, in the modern world is half intuition. Sure, classic rock nonsense might require that you know how to play G6add13 9 different ways, but for most good, solid rock of varying kinds, having a guitarist who knows all of the simple and expanded chord forms, and knows a few shortcuts, but has a good sense of melody and harmony is much more valuable.

Vocalists are not exceptionally hard to find, but good vocalists are practically impossible to find. Any yokel can think he can sing in tune, but very few actually can.
If American Idol has taught us anything...
I would actually contest this. Too much theory can make a rock guitarist useless. Rock, in the modern world is half intuition. Sure, classic rock nonsense might require that you know how to play G6add13 9 different ways, but for most good, solid rock of varying kinds, having a guitarist who knows all of the simple and expanded chord forms, and knows a few shortcuts, but has a good sense of melody and harmony is much more valuable.

My brother went through this and has ultimately decided on the musically literate. It comes down to communication, mostly. It just took too long to get a wanker to understand what he wanted him to do. They could play by ear, and play something that fit, but it would really only be what you'd hear from just about anyone else, and sometimes he was setting up something and needed the other guy to understand that. Plus, the musically literate could come up with something interesting to add when they knew the over all structure of the song being played. Not as important in punk, but he likes to play music thats interesting to him.

And his older brother was a jazz player who got WAY too much credit from the rest of the family so he spends too much time trying to impress me even though he surpassed me years ago.

But he still plays rock, and rock relies heavy on the ear, if you don't have that you simply can't play it. It's just nice to have someone who knows what it all is at the end of the day.

If American Idol has taught us anything...

It's that Americans care more about which yokel yodels best than they care about which yokel is running the country. Out of tune, nothing. :p


My brother went through this and has ultimately decided on the musically literate. It comes down to communication, mostly. It just took too long to get a wanker to understand what he wanted him to do. They could play by ear, and play something that fit, but it would really only be what you'd hear from just about anyone else, and sometimes he was setting up something and needed the other guy to understand that. Plus, the musically literate could come up with something interesting to add when they knew the over all structure of the song being played. Not as important in punk, but he likes to play music thats interesting to him.

And his older brother was a jazz player who got WAY too much credit from the rest of the family so he spends too much time trying to impress me even though he surpassed me years ago.

But he still plays rock, and rock relies heavy on the ear, if you don't have that you simply can't play it. It's just nice to have someone who knows what it all is at the end of the day.

I guess that I have both sides of the coin on this one. I'm a classically trained violist who has had theory pounded into his head left right and center since he started on the viola, and I'm also a punk guitarist and vocalist. I would never try to play viola by ear, but Rock'N'Roll is much more closely connected to the minimalist school than it is to Jazz or Beethoven.

The most important skills that any guitarist can have are a sense of ensemble (which, in my experience, is rarer than musical literacy) and a good sense of musicality. Other things are nice, but at the end of the day, everything else is just details. If you can sound good and play together, you're a step ahead of the rest of the world.

If I want something more complex from a limited guitarist, I just tab it. As a composer, I use theory, but in actual application, I'm too busy with the actual act of expression and shaping to spend time on remembering whether I'm playing the augmented 4th or the perfect 4th. Sometimes, being able to step away from the rules, and take the utilitarian stance that what sounds good, is, is very hard, the more you get involved with the theory side of things. That was one of my biggest problems, as I became theory litterate on the guitar. My songs started getting bread-and-buttery, and I lost my edge.

I suppose it easier to set up a folk band than many other type of bands only for the lashings of ale and very dodgy lyrics

I suppose it easier to set up a folk band than many other type of bands only for the lashings of ale and very dodgy lyrics

Not to mention the usually stripped-down style and acoustic setup. :)

It's that Americans care more about which yokel yodels best than they care about which yokel is running the country. Out of tune, nothing. :p




I guess that I have both sides of the coin on this one. I'm a classically trained violist who has had theory pounded into his head left right and center since he started on the viola, and I'm also a punk guitarist and vocalist. I would never try to play viola by ear, but Rock'N'Roll is much more closely connected to the minimalist school than it is to Jazz or Beethoven.

The most important skills that any guitarist can have are a sense of ensemble (which, in my experience, is rarer than musical literacy) and a good sense of musicality. Other things are nice, but at the end of the day, everything else is just details. If you can sound good and play together, you're a step ahead of the rest of the world.

If I want something more complex from a limited guitarist, I just tab it. As a composer, I use theory, but in actual application, I'm too busy with the actual act of expression and shaping to spend time on remembering whether I'm playing the augmented 4th or the perfect 4th. Sometimes, being able to step away from the rules, and take the utilitarian stance that what sounds good, is, is very hard, the more you get involved with the theory side of things. That was one of my biggest problems, as I became theory litterate on the guitar. My songs started getting bread-and-buttery, and I lost my edge.
There's an arc with the theory, at least in jazz, where you start to become so aware of it that you forgot that you were supposed to be playing something worth hearing, but once it's second nature you're not thinking about it as much as just doing it. There are stories about people recording Bird, working out his solos and showing them to him only to have him be bewildered by it, "I played that? Huh." He knew, he consciously studied Stravinsky and chord extensions and the like, but then got it so under his fingers that he could go back to playing music again.

But like I said, I don't think you can play rock without the ear. You can even fake jazz a little without the ear (but oh my fucking god is that boring) but so much of rock is based on 'feel' that you just can't play it without it. But for my brother he found it easier to play with people who were literate as well.

There's an arc with the theory, at least in jazz, where you start to become so aware of it that you forgot that you were supposed to be playing something worth hearing, but once it's second nature you're not thinking about it as much as just doing it. There are stories about people recording Bird, working out his solos and showing them to him only to have him be bewildered by it, "I played that? Huh." He knew, he consciously studied Stravinsky and chord extensions and the like, but then got it so under his fingers that he could go back to playing music again.

But like I said, I don't think you can play rock without the ear. You can even fake jazz a little without the ear (but oh my fucking god is that boring) but so much of rock is based on 'feel' that you just can't play it without it. But for my brother he found it easier to play with people who were literate as well.

I think it really is a phillosophy of music thing. For me, the proof is in the communication. The best song I ever wrote got written by accident. I trashed the lyrics I had brought down to my music room, and took the concept and just played. I find that when I think too much, something gets lost in translation. That's a punk thing, though, I guess. More is less and all that.

And, to be fair, I've never worked with a set of musically literate, ensemble-minded, and dedicated players in my life in either classical or rock music. In classical music, there's always the kids who just want to make the minimal amount of effort to make a piece passable, and they totally forget the whole joy of playing. In rock, I almost find that dedication and musical literacy aren't too hard to find, but people who know what it means to be in an ensemble are rarer than gold.

I think it really is a phillosophy of music thing. For me, the proof is in the communication. The best song I ever wrote got written by accident. I trashed the lyrics I had brought down to my music room, and took the concept and just played. I find that when I think too much, something gets lost in translation. That's a punk thing, though, I guess. More is less and all that.

And, to be fair, I've never worked with a set of musically literate, ensemble-minded, and dedicated players in my life in either classical or rock music. In classical music, there's always the kids who just want to make the minimal amount of effort to make a piece passable, and they totally forget the whole joy of playing. In rock, I almost find that dedication and musical literacy aren't too hard to find, but people who know what it means to be in an ensemble are rarer than gold.

This is why I advocated joining someone elses band. Everyone wants to be a band leader, but if you want to play, find someone you like and play for them.

I see this with guitarists all the time, they complain that they can't find a rhythm guitarist because they always want to play lead. So then the obvious question is "well then, why don't you play rhythm?" Fuck that, I play lead...

Well...

Easy for a horn player to say, in a combo everyone is going to think it's my band anyway...

have been reading through the posts, good points and all. We're in Dublin Ireland, theres been a core of two for the past 3 years, I play lead and sing, and he plays rhythm guitar and we write songs between us. I also play bass and do drum programming for the recording end. We've got (tentatively is the word) a singer, cos Im not very comfortable singing myself and I dont like the performative stuff, engaging with the audience and such, I can do it but I wouldnt have any talent for it.

Anyway in Ireland, Ive found there isnt much of a rock scene as such as in big riffs, big lead, pompous grandiose progressive rock kinda stuff. Snow Patrol and Green Day seem to be the big influences and keeping it simple which I hate because its become almost like a rule nowadays (dont get me wrong, I understand that keeping it simple can be good idea). I really like the stuff we produce as a band, the music and the vision constitute something Im proud of and something I want to make a stab at so that it can get at the very least cult recognition. But whats fustrating, as anyone whose been in a band knows, is that there are a lot of timewasters. It like we cant even get started to make the attempt at forging a career of it, its a poxy and trivial problem which is at the same time paralysing the band, and it shouldnt be. And has anyone encountered those dudes as well who come into practice and just mutter and are monosyllabic when you try to talk to them? They seem to be everywhere, like they were cloned from some original. We'd take a shit drummer and bassist if they were committed to improving. I wish there were robots to play bass and drums, it would be so much easier.

God, I wish I had any musical talent to be in a band. Right now, skills are limited to fencing and knowledge. :p

Setting up a death metal band's damn near impossible in some places, because I'd say 90% of the human race thinks death metal is horrid noise pollution.

:(

It's quite easy to get gigs over hear, even if you're shit. I'm in a pretty decent band and used to play gigs around my city, but everyone keeps going away and fucking everything up. My advice: if you're going to form a band, try and make sure you are all good friends first.

It's quite easy to get gigs over hear, even if you're shit. I'm in a pretty decent band and used to play gigs around my city, but everyone keeps going away and fucking everything up. My advice: if you're going to form a band, try and make sure you are all good friends first.

You're in a funk band, right? You've mentioned it a couple times before.

My advice: if you're going to form a band, try and make sure you are all good friends first.

Why destroy perfectly good friendships by forming a band?

You're in a funk band, right? You've mentioned it a couple times before.

Yeah. Well, it's not really traditional funk. I can't really call it one style so i'll just say "it's our own thing" :p

Why destroy perfectly good friendships by forming a band?

Ah touché

I have a question for those abroad, whats it like setting up a band say in the US or Uk, has anyone who has tried to set up a band encountered a lot of (if seemingly only) timewasters + idiots who turn up but sulk and mutter in themselves ala "Im too cool to be here".

I dunno. I'm in an orchestra.

Learn to play all the instruments yourself, record and layer your songs using software, and you're set.

^ What he said. That's what I do anyway.

I really want to be a band singer, but I can't write lyrics for the life of me. I never liked singers who didn't write their own lyrics, and I'm not a hypocrite.

I really want to be a band singer, but I can't write lyrics for the life of me. I never liked singers who didn't write their own lyrics, and I'm not a hypocrite.

I don't know, I'd rather the voice be chosen to match the needs of the song rather than a sense of 'ownership' or 'authorship' from the singer. I have more respect for a lyricist that decides that a particular set of lyrics fit a different voice, sort of the Pink Floyd model. Comes down to whether it's about the ego or the music. (which is not to say that Pink Floyd was never about the ego, giant raging ego is what tore that band apart, but even with that they (at least said) put the voice to the lyrics over the author)

I would never try to play viola by ear, but Rock'N'Roll is much more closely connected to the minimalist school than it is to Jazz or Beethoven.
...
Sometimes, being able to step away from the rules, and take the utilitarian stance that what sounds good, is, is very hard, the more you get involved with the theory side of things.

I'd agree with this. It reminds me of a cartoon in the newspaper years ago where jazz musicians were commenting that a classical musician was "addicted to the dots". It can be all too true, especially when you reach a high standard of classical playing / music theory before you even discover other genres.

Edit: as a pianist, I don't get to play much with other people at all, but I know from friends that getting good band members is tricky to say the least.

I see this with guitarists all the time, they complain that they can't find a rhythm guitarist because they always want to play lead. So then the obvious question is "well then, why don't you play rhythm?" Fuck that, I play lead...


And that is why I play rhythm. More demand. :p

I don't know, I'd rather the voice be chosen to match the needs of the song rather than a sense of 'ownership' or 'authorship' from the singer. I have more respect for a lyricist that decides that a particular set of lyrics fit a different voice, sort of the Pink Floyd model. Comes down to whether it's about the ego or the music. (which is not to say that Pink Floyd was never about the ego, giant raging ego is what tore that band apart, but even with that they (at least said) put the voice to the lyrics over the author)

I always respected Ronnie James Dio a little more than Ozzy Osbourne because the man wrote his own lyrics.

I dunno. I'm in an orchestra.

Same here.

I always respected Ronnie James Dio a little more than Ozzy Osbourne because the man wrote his own lyrics.

So you've already said, but they're not poets, not really, they're singers. The instrument has to match the piece, and if you choose an instrument based on authorship rather than what best serves the song then you do a disservice to the song-you've served ego over the art and diminished the whole thing.

Even in 'storyteller' music, if I write a song like that about a weathered and hardened man and insist that I sing it instead of, say for examples sake, Johnny Cash, the song suffers because it's better off being sung by a weathered and hardened man than me.

If you respect the music you give it the best chance for performance, and sometimes that means you let someone else take the lead. On my thesis quintet I played the bottom horn because the people I found to play it could do the other parts better. Insisting on playing the lead because I wrote it would have resulted in a worse recording.

Authorship in performance isn't as important as who can serve the piece the best. It's part of collaborative art.

I really want to be a band singer, but I can't write lyrics for the life of me. I never liked singers who didn't write their own lyrics, and I'm not a hypocrite.

Practice makes perfect. My first set of lyrics was shite, too (and I keep a record of them around so that I can make myself feel better about my current work when I'm down). Writing is something that never improves if you don't practice it, and lyrics are no different than books in that regard.

I'm a fairly good lyricist these days (although even I throw out half of what I write, editting is like that), but the first song I ever wrote went like this:

"Pope’s a Nazi, Who’s surprised?
Let’s ignore just close your eyes.
Is he God’s Olive? Sure why not?
Just do as he says. Do you what you’re taught.

(Chorus)
Pope’s a Nazi
Hitler youth
Fascist thoughts he’s
Got the Truth

Pope he’s fascist
Wants your help
Preach Mein Kampf
Or GO TO HELL!"

Now we both know it ain't very good, but it was a good start. If you don't try, you can never succede. Journey of a thousand miles and all that.

I really want to be a band singer, but I can't write lyrics for the life of me. I never liked singers who didn't write their own lyrics, and I'm not a hypocrite.

where does that leave people who are great lyricists but terrible singers? they need good performers to do justice to their work.

where does that leave people who are great lyricists but terrible singers? they need good performers to do justice to their work.

Yeah, I guess. But Geezer Butler and Bob Daisley did well enough.

And that is why I play rhythm. More demand. :p

You want to be in demand? But down that guitar and pick up a mixing desk.

Hey, it worked for me.

You want to be in demand? But down that guitar and pick up a mixing desk.

Hey, it worked for me.

Live sound? I'm told that if you freelance, it can pay quite well, but I'm more interested in the music side of things than the financial side.

where does that leave people who are great lyricists but terrible singers?

They start punk bands.

Practice makes perfect. My first set of lyrics was shite, too (and I keep a record of them around so that I can make myself feel better about my current work when I'm down). Writing is something that never improves if you don't practice it, and lyrics are no different than books in that regard.

I'm a fairly good lyricist these days (although even I throw out half of what I write, editting is like that), but the first song I ever wrote went like this:

"Pope’s a Nazi, Who’s surprised?
Let’s ignore just close your eyes.
Is he God’s Olive? Sure why not?
Just do as he says. Do you what you’re taught.

(Chorus)
Pope’s a Nazi
Hitler youth
Fascist thoughts he’s
Got the Truth

Pope he’s fascist
Wants your help
Preach Mein Kampf
Or GO TO HELL!"

Now we both know it ain't very good, but it was a good start. If you don't try, you can never succede. Journey of a thousand miles and all that.

Sounds like a far-left punk band song. My most recent effort went like this:

Wake up in the morning
Get out my guitar
Tune up and get out
I'm gonna wage war
Against the coporate crap
And the fools in the hood
Cause ya know what I think?
It's not all good

Cause I rock
I rock and roll
Yeah, I rock
I rock and roll

I'm on the metal health plan
Gonna drive you insane
Rocking to heaven and back
Cause I'm an axegrinder
And I got no brains
I'm headbanging all night long

Cause I rock
I rock and roll
Yeah, I rock
I rock and roll
Keep it alive, yeah!

(Guitar solo)

I got my band
And I got my crew
We rock like a hurricane!
We're all headbangers
Been driven insane
Drawn to the rocking beat

Cause we rock
We rock and roll
Yeah, we rock
We rock and roll
Yeah, we rock
We rock and roll
Yeah, we rock
We rock and roll

(Continues until fade-out [ad-libs])

Unsurprisingly, it's called "I Rock and Roll".

This removes two of the coolest things about playing music, interacting with other musicians (who add to and react to what you play) and interacting with an engaged audience (who can drive what you play).

Composing and recording can be cool, but compared to performing they're a disappointing cousin.
Oh I must disagree. For me, composing is far more interesting and entertaining than performing. I can use whatever ideas I want, theres no disagreements between band members because I'm the only person writing the music, and I can put as little or as much effort into a song as I want. If I'm stuck I can bounce ideas off friends (most of whom also prefer composing). I also prefer recording to performing - I enjoy trying to get the exact sound I wanted. I dislike performing, it just makes me tired and sweaty :P