NationStates Jolt Archive

I officially own this thread.

1. In the movie "Dogma" there's angels like Metatron, who is the voice of God. Loki, an angel that used to carry out God's decree as the Angel of Death. I forgot what Bartleby role in Heaven was. God also has the muse who inspired the people who wrote the Bible. Now the one questions that I have is that if God is susspose to be all powerful, all knowing, and all seeing, then why Metatron, Loki, Bartleby, and the muse? You'd think such an entity would be able to do all of these roles by itself.

2. One of Jesus commandments was to love your neighbor as you love yourself, but what if you don't love yourself, does that give you the right to be a dick to your neighbor?

Just some thoughts that's been going through my head. :)

1) For Metatron, I believe they said in the movie that our mortal frame wouldn't be able to handle the actual voice of God. It's a pretty commonly held belief among some folk. As for the others, I'm not sure. I just extend the "world can't handle it" reason to the rest of it.

2) Yes, but I better see you scourging yourself after you've done it to your neighbor :p

1. In the movie "Dogma" there's angels like Metatron, who is the voice of God. Loki, an angel that used to carry out God's decree as the Angel of Death. I forgot what Bartleby role in Heaven was. God also has the muse who inspired the people who wrote the Bible. Now the one questions that I have is that if God is susspose to be all powerful, all knowing, and all seeing, then why Metatron, Loki, Bartleby, and the muse? You'd think such an entity would be able to do all of these roles by itself.
The idea behind the Metatron is that the True Voice Of God causes people's heads to explode when they hear them. But it's just a movie.

2. One of Jesus commandments was to love your neighbor as you love yourself, but what if you don't love yourself, does that give you the right to be a dick to your neighbor?

Just some thoughts that's been going through my head. :)

He also said "Love one another as I have loved you", so masochists don't get to be dickheads.

1. In the movie "Dogma" there's angels like Metatron, who is the voice of God. Loki, an angel that used to carry out God's decree as the Angel of Death. I forgot what Bartleby role in Heaven was. God also has the muse who inspired the people who wrote the Bible. Now the one questions that I have is that if God is susspose to be all powerful, all knowing, and all seeing, then why Metatron, Loki, Bartleby, and the muse? You'd think such an entity would be able to do all of these roles by itself.

Well, the reasoning behind Metatron was that God's voice was perfect to the point that it would instantly kill a mortal (maybe from the grief that they'll never hear something so perfect again?)

Loki wasn't the angel of death, he destroyed things on God's command. Pretty much for the same reason that a mob boss will get his lackey's to rough someone up, or America will train Contras or whatever: plausible deniability.

Bartleby (who was a Grigori, and angel sent to watch over humans. They eventually became fallen angels because they had teh secks with mortal wyfs). I forget the reason for Grigoris to exist.

Muses exist in Catholic dogma in order to incorporate pagan beliefs into the system, so that pagans would convert more readily (sort of like the Celtic Cross. It's just a combo of the crucifix with the Sun, a symbol that future Christians already worshipped).

2. One of Jesus commandments was to love your neighbor as you love yourself, but what if you don't love yourself, does that give you the right to be a dick to your neighbor?

If you're a dick to yourself, then you should go to hell, because you're an emo bitch. :D

god could have done things any way he liked. that he chose (for the purpose of our discussion) to have angels take care of things doesnt mean that he had no other way he could have done it.

and no, you dont get to be a dick to anyone.

I looked up Metatron and didn't even get past the Wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metatron), it's so convoluted as to where things like that come from and what their history and function are.

Personally, off the cuff, I think this is the kind of thing you get as you transition from polytheistic religions with a very anthology of stories type existence to a 'monotheistic' one, some of the myths look like 'old style' myths.

I never know where to find this shit, though, since modern churches play this stuff down.

1. In the movie "Dogma" there's angels like Metatron, who is the voice of God. Loki, an angel that used to carry out God's decree as the Angel of Death. I forgot what Bartleby role in Heaven was. God also has the muse who inspired the people who wrote the Bible. Now the one questions that I have is that if God is susspose to be all powerful, all knowing, and all seeing, then why Metatron, Loki, Bartleby, and the muse? You'd think such an entity would be able to do all of these roles by itself.

2. One of Jesus commandments was to love your neighbor as you love yourself, but what if you don't love yourself, does that give you the right to be a dick to your neighbor?

Just some thoughts that's been going through my head. :)

1) Well, it is fine to be good in oneself, but it is better to be the cause of goodness in others. God let's others participate in his governance in order to help bring everything to its highest perfection. St. Thomas explains it better here (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1103.htm#3) than I can, in article 6.

2) Jesus here is speaking to people based on common perceptions. The vast majority of people are not suicidal or self-hating. If you must take a literalist reading of the passage, then Ifreann's quotation also helps.

I'd try and answer but everything I know about Metatron comes from Angel Sanctuary so... I doubt I'd be of any help.

An in answer to #2... well... if you like yourself how can you like other people?

2. You're mentally unstable if you don't have a feeling about yourself. Get help.

2. One of Jesus commandments was to love your neighbor as you love yourself, but what if you don't love yourself, does that give you the right to be a dick to your neighbor?
He actually said "Love your neighbor as you would have your neighbor love yourself," or something like that.

So even if your neighbor doesn't love you back, love them like you will have them love yourself.

Your first question has little to do about religion - it's about a movie.

2. You're mentally unstable if you don't have a feeling about yourself. Get help.

Or he's the Buddha.

He actually said "Love your neighbor as you would have your neighbor love yourself," or something like that.

So even if your neighbor doesn't love you back, love them like you will have them love yourself.


Lev 19:18 You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.

Mat 5:43 You have heard that is was said, "you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy." But I say to you Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be the sons of your Father who is in heaven.

Mat 19:19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Mat 22:39 And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Mark 12:31 The second is this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said to him, You are right, Teacher: you have truely said t hat he is one, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Luke 10:27 And he answered, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.

Rome 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

Rome 13:9.........You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Rome 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gala 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law, according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well.

I stand corrected.

YHWH wasn't considered omnipotent until relatively recently.

quotes

Wow! A bible scholar. I've never been particularly religious, but I've always admited people who could spontaneously cite all kinds of biblical quotations. Wish I had that capacity for long-term memory. ;)

Wow! A bible scholar. I've never been particularly religious, but I've always admited people who could spontaneously cite all kinds of biblical quotations. Wish I had that capacity for long-term memory. ;)

Actually I wish I could also. I have an electronic bible by Franklin Computer. Just put in a couple words and it gives me every verse.

I looked up Metatron and didn't even get past the Wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metatron), it's so convoluted as to where things like that come from and what their history and function are.

Personally, off the cuff, I think this is the kind of thing you get as you transition from polytheistic religions with a very anthology of stories type existence to a 'monotheistic' one, some of the myths look like 'old style' myths.

I never know where to find this shit, though, since modern churches play this stuff down.

Bingo! It all happens in the transitions. I'm always amazed when I hear evangelical christians, for example, mocking groups like the Mormons or Scientologists for their ludicrous beliefs. I'm like "dude! Do you even know your own dogma?" There are stories in the Bible that no four year old would believe if they didn't have the authority of time behind them, but grown, supposedly intelligent people believe them implicitly. And we won't even get into the crazier stuff that was left behind when the church made the transition into a codified religion.

YHWH wasn't considered omnipotent until relatively recently.

How recently? Also in what ways was he limited before we decided to make him omnipotent?

I'd try and answer but everything I know about Metatron comes from Angel Sanctuary so... I doubt I'd be of any help.

An in answer to #2... well... if you like yourself how can you like other people?

>> *stalks you now*

http://setsunasheart.free.fr/lespersonnages/anges/metatron.jpg

XD

YHWH wasn't considered omnipotent until relatively recently.

That's because most of the other pussy gods haven't hopped up, and the real ones don't need the attention ... they're not egotistical, maniacal, bloodthirsty emotional infants like YHWH. They needn't even bide their time - they're much too important for that and the triflings of the fragile egos of common religious folk.

This is a movie question, not a religion question. It's on about the same intellectual level as asking what the size of the Klingon Empire says about developments in cosmology.

How recently? Also in what ways was he limited before we decided to make him omnipotent?
By_your_command

Judges 1:19.
Give it a shot:

http://bible.cc/judges/1-19.htm

The really, really cool thing about that page is how it's pretty fucking hard to make a mistake about meaning in cross-referece.

This is a movie question, not a religion question. It's on about the same intellectual level as asking what the size of the Klingon Empire says about developments in cosmology.

Good post!
*bows*

I officially own this thread.

I agree with your thread stealing dogmas. Where do I sign up?

Bingo! It all happens in the transitions. I'm always amazed when I hear evangelical christians, for example, mocking groups like the Mormons or Scientologists for their ludicrous beliefs. I'm like "dude! Do you even know your own dogma?" There are stories in the Bible that no four year old would believe if they didn't have the authority of time behind them, but grown, supposedly intelligent people believe them implicitly. And we won't even get into the crazier stuff that was left behind when the church made the transition into a codified religion.

That was my bridge to atheism. I was in a Christian school and they were mocking the beliefs of something, I think it was mythology, and I began to think, "But wait, didn't you just tell me about a stone tablet delivering talking flaming bush? And a talking donkey or something? Why is that more plausible than what you're talking about? They have books, too..."

Then I started telling the stories in my head in the voice of an 'older kid' making shit up for some younger kids and realized what all this stuff sounded like. After that belief became a difficult thing to justify.

I agree with your thread stealing dogmas. Where do I sign up?

You need to first steal at least 4 threads epically. Then, we will come to you.

This is a movie question, not a religion question. It's on about the same intellectual level as asking what the size of the Klingon Empire says about developments in cosmology.

Ding! We have a winner. Thank you, sir. :)

"Dogma" is a great movie, but it does not reflect anyone's scripture and doesn't try to. In no lists of angelology (yep, an actual term) is Metatron listed as "the voice of God." Nor was Loki ever an angel, fallen or otherwise - he's a god in Norse myths. And Bartleby? I mean, really, people.

If anyone wants to talk about angels, here's a list that actually references angels:

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mangels.html

Have fun with it.