NationStates Jolt Archive

There's a big fight at the moment between Merkel and the Duck Twins about the remains of the European constitution. Merkel has made it her job to save the useful parts of the constitution during her term, and the Ducks reckon this is a good time to threaten with refusal unless they get more say in EU decisions.

So Spiegel wrote an article on Polish-German relations which I thought I would share with you, because it's pretty good.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,489510,00.html

And as an addition: A history of betrayals (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,489527,00.html)

Of course any corrections from Polish posters are welcome.

I'm a little irritated with the Polish government. The whole idea of the EU was to just forget about the 19th and early 20th century, to sit down at one table and let bygones be bygones. At that it was extraordinarily successful (and from a German point of view, it was absolutely vital that it was). Poland unfortunately missed out on that process and now seems to bring back history into the EU, which is unfortunate (particularly since Polish history is obviously rather filled with reasons for feuds and animosities). But I guess there's not a lot to be done - the only people who can change this are the Polish voters.

Are there any genuinely pro-European Polish parties?

Poland probably just wants a clause like:
'All homosexual dirty communists will be summarily shot'.

'All homosexual dirty communists will be summarily shot'.

Don't forget Germans...

Poland is like the only country to be invaded by both the Nazis and the Soviets simultaneously, that has to hold some kind of record.

There is a simple solution to (The) Kaczynski's issues - they can just leave the EU.

Personally, I'm in favour.

There is a simple solution to (The) Kaczynski's issues - they can just leave the EU.
And miss out on subsidies? :eek:

The Poles are a nation to be admired until you actually meet one - not always true but surprisingly accurate.

And miss out on subsidies? :eek:How dare you to suggest that Poland is interested in filthy, dirty money from the western fascists. No, Poland is sacrificing in order to save Europe from its own mistakes.

Money has nothing to do with it. We all know this.

Though, on a more serious note, I do see a bright side in the Polish antagonism - they're pissing off the rest of the continent. You don't often see everyone else in the EU agreeing, but Poland's antics manage it effortlessly.

There is a simple solution to (The) Kaczynski's issues - they can just leave the EU.

There is that.

I'm not exactly strong on matters of EU policy, but couldn't the EU kick Poland out if they wanted? They are, apparently, being extremely detrimental to the entire process.

I find it quite interesting that despite the fact that Poland's proposal would increase the proportional influence of every nation that has a smaller population than Poland itself...only one of those nations supports the idea, and then only marginally.

I think Poland needs a big lesson in STFU.

(*Is half-German, half-Polish...thinks this article is just too weird.* :p )

You can't destroy the Poles but if you give them power they'll destroy themselves.

Only a matter of time. 'bout time as I may add.

President Kaczynski has even declared his readiness to "die for the square root."

And math geeks everywhere get all teary-eyed.

The Poles are a nation to be admired until you actually meet one.
They can just leave the EU. Personally, I'm in favour.
Poland probably just wants a clause like: 'All homosexual dirty communists will be summarily shot'.
You can't destroy the Poles but if you give them power they'll destroy themselves. Only a matter of time. 'bout time as I may add.
I think Poland needs a big lesson in STFU.

Guys, I'm Polish and I don't feel good after reading this thread. Frankly, I lost the drive to respond in any meaningful fashion, I just want to remind you that you are talking about real people, not some abstractions.

Wow... I just had a look at the German www.spiegel.de (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,489866,00.html), the headline is that Kaczynski now demands that the Polish deads from WW II should be taken into account to give Poland more votes in the EU.
So far, I thought that whole thing was just a little exaggerated and that some egos demanded stroking, but this? Seriously, this is not just disrespectful and mental, it's downright sick. :eek:

Wow... I just had a look at the German www.spiegel.de (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,489866,00.html), ...snippage...Seriously, this is not just disrespectful and mental, it's downright sick. :eek:

Kaczynskis are scary. Or actually they aren't that scary. The fact that they are (he is) democratically elected leader(s), is scary.

Do not forget that the Ducks were only supported by about 35% of the votes and the elections included only 52% or so of the population entitled.

Anyway; while I personally dislike them, I don't understand why bash a whole country for that.... Believe it or not, but we DO have some people with intelligence exceeding one of a random vegetable, such as the aforementioned potatoes.

Guys, I'm Polish and I don't feel good after reading this thread. Frankly, I lost the drive to respond in any meaningful fashion, I just want to remind you that you are talking about real people, not some abstractions.
Then please....it's quite important to hear diverse opinions. Go ahead and speak your mind, or perhaps nobody will ever know what you are thinking.

Do not forget that the Ducks were only supported by about 35% of the votes and the elections included only 52% or so of the population entitled.

Anyway; while I personally dislike them, I don't understand why bash a whole country for that.... Believe it or not, but we DO have some people with intelligence exceeding one of a random vegetable, such as the aforementioned potatoes.

See, that's the thing about elected representatives. I'm sure many USAmericans will understand perfectly how you feel...
The thing is, support or no support, these guys decide what Poland will do in foreign politics, and right now, that's begining to get more than a little weird and slightly scary.

Wow... I just had a look at the German www.spiegel.de (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,489866,00.html), the headline is that Kaczynski now demands that the Polish deads from WW II should be taken into account to give Poland more votes in the EU.
So far, I thought that whole thing was just a little exaggerated and that some egos demanded stroking, but this? Seriously, this is not just disrespectful and mental, it's downright sick. :eek:ROFL.

Pure awesome. Well, he wasn't exactly taken serious before - but my guess is that as far as foreign/ EU politics are concerned, he's now a dead man.

In a way, I respect him, though - you've to be seriously disconnected from reality (And/ or don't give a shit about everyone but you) to pull that off. Hats off.

The Poles are a nation to be admired until you actually meet one - not always true but surprisingly accurate.

that's not true at all and i think it's an incredibly ignorant thing to say. i've yet to meet a polish person i didn't like and most of the people i work with are polish.

that's not true at all and i think it's an incredibly ignorant thing to say. i've yet to meet a polish person i didn't like and most of the people i work with are polish.

I've met plenty, have been to Warsaw and Krakow a few times and, as I said, though it's not always true, it often is - Poles can be very morose and unhelpful - generalization sure but that's what we do with nations. Ask any American, or any religious person, or any group anywhere.

I'm not particularly defending my statement - generalizations are no good for anyone - but I find Polish people often have a chip on their shoulder, deserved or not, that makes it difficult to deal with them.

Or were you arguing that they're not a nation to be admired?

Then please....it's quite important to hear diverse opinions. Go ahead and speak your mind, or perhaps nobody will ever know what you are thinking.

This isn't about diferences in opinions, I refuse to believe that such statements as "It's about time the Poles destroyed themselves" are meant seriously. It's the casually hostile tone I can't stand.
I know that the current Polish government is an extremally easy target equally for hate and ridicule and practically begs to be singled out as the reason of all the problems of European integration. And I'm sick of defending the Ducks that I consider the biggest disaster my country has to endure since 1989. But I have to point out that the weight of Polish vote under the square root system proposed by Kaczynskis would be REDUCED, not increased. Even Der Spiegel has to acknowledge that, albeit not verbally (it's on the infographics). The most important, and summarily „overlooked” in German analysis feature of the square root system is that it it would be much harder for several big countries (with the support of some smaller) to decide the issues. Yes, it would surely slow down the integration process. But on the other hand it would ensure that nobody is dragged forward at uncomfortable pace by the neck.

The Poles are a nation to be admired until you actually meet one - not always true but surprisingly accurate.

What about the Polish Club?

I've met plenty, have been to Warsaw and Krakow a few times and, as I said, though it's not always true, it often is - Poles can be very morose and unhelpful - generalization sure but that's what we do with nations. Ask any American, or any religious person, or any group anywhere.

I'm not particularly defending my statement - generalizations are no good for anyone - but I find Polish people often have a chip on their shoulder, deserved or not, that makes it difficult to deal with them.

Or were you arguing that they're not a nation to be admired?

well with any group of people there are grumpy ones and happy ones. sounds like you encountered the worst and i've encountered the best, at my job they include the liveliest and friendliest of all the people i work with (that list includes scots, english, irish, ugandan, spanish, czech, russian, german, kenyan). i don't think anyone's nationality has anything to do with their personality and demeanor anyway.

i know very little of the history of the place beyond WW2 so i couldn't say whether i admire the nation. i tend not to be in the habit of admiring any nation as a whole though.

There is a simple solution to (The) Kaczynski's issues - they can just leave the EU.

Personally, I'm in favour.

If the majority of the Poles share the opinion of Their Dear Twin Duck Leaders, well, they're excused out of the EU. They can always apply again for membership later if they change their mind.

I do hope that TDTDL don't represent the opinion of the majority.

If the majority of the Poles share the opinion of Their Dear Twin Duck Leaders

Did you read the thread? Is 1/2 out of 35% (during the elections, now it's only 20%) „the majority”? And even their supporters don't support all of their policies. Not to mention their methods.

Guys, I'm Polish and I don't feel good after reading this thread. Frankly, I lost the drive to respond in any meaningful fashion, I just want to remind you that you are talking about real people, not some abstractions.

There are no Polish. It is merely a construct of The System *watches as the eutrix distorts*. Hey, didn't a politician of the construct of The System already pass the lunacy point of no return?

well with any group of people there are grumpy ones and happy ones. sounds like you encountered the worst and i've encountered the best, at my job they include the liveliest and friendliest of all the people i work with (that list includes scots, english, irish, ugandan, spanish, czech, russian, german, kenyan). i don't think anyone's nationality has anything to do with their personality and demeanor anyway.

i know very little of the history of the place beyond WW2 so i couldn't say whether i admire the nation. i tend not to be in the habit of admiring any nation as a whole though.

Sounds like they're no longer in Poland.

I think nationality does affect personality and demeanour, not in the sense of 'happy person/unhappy person' individually, but in terms of affecting an outlook in life, definitions by which citizens of a country define themselves, let alone how other people describe them.

Poland is a land with a long history of struggle - there's plenty to admire - they're independent-spirited, that's for sure. It's possible that sense of defiance can cause them to bow to nobody, hence to be rather difficult....in general :)

from the link in the OP

Only on Tuesday did Warsaw indicate that it may back down. Still, Poland wants its square-root formula added to the summit agenda. President Kaczynski has even declared his readiness to "die for the square root." The Polish media has been quick to offer its backing, too: We have to "protect the interests of Poland together," wrote the daily Rzeczpospolita.

"Die for the square root". Oh yeah.

And why not for the exponential, the arc tangent and the error function ?

I demand that all functions are given same dignity!

Kick the Poles out, I am sick of the immigrants now that the EU has f-ed up the boarder system.

Poland has no right to try and gain as much influence as Germany holds, Germany is the richest country in the EU and what are the Poles? All immigrants because there homeland is crap, surely not.

I have to say that the 'Eastern Block' as we once knew it is still as troublesome, but in a more vocal and less nuclear way.

You can not intergrate the British with the French, the Germans with the Poles, ect, into one. They are countrys with long historys and different cultures, the EU is only a good idea when it comes to trade, not intergration.

What about the Polish Club?

Unaware of - a charity group or a support system for overseas Poles?

Or a drink?

A sandwich?

Did you read the thread? Is 1/2 out of 35% (during the elections, now it's only 20%) „the majority”? And even their supporters don't support all of their policies. Not to mention their methods.

What have the poll results to do with the opinion on a specifical issue? Nothing.

Maybe some people who didn't vote for TDTDL share their ideas about EU and the relationship with Germany. Maybe some other voters are even more extreme about the EU and want to quit altogether. Maybe many of the people who didn't vote at the last elections harbour anti-EU feelings.

This is why I wrote "if". Did you read my post before answering? (Cpt.Obvious just told me you didn't, so don't bother.)

Unaware of - a charity group or a support system for overseas Poles?

Or a drink?

A sandwich?

A bridge betting system (seems to also be a bridge gaming place) ;) .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Club

Now if only I could learn how to play bridge...

Kick the Poles out, I am sick of the immigrants now that the EU has f-ed up the boarder system.

Someone moved in next door and his eating habits stink? You poor thing. But that's the downside of boarding. Rent a flat and you'll be well.
And you'll break the Compasses and the Tents if you kick the Poles out.

What have the poll results to do with the opinion on a specifical issue? Nothing.

Well, you were answering to the poster that wrote about "answer to Kaczynskis issues" so I assumed that you meant their general opinions, not just on the European voting system. However as far as this specific issue is concerned, I believe that the majority of Poles shares the opinion of their government – that the square root system is better for our country. I also believe that it's also better for the European Union as a whole, because it empowers the smaller nations and makes it difficult to ignore their opinions. And if Poland manages to change the voting system in favour of smaller countries (I don't believe it will :(), in two years nobody will give a damn about how it was done. Mind you, I don't think that dragging the bodies of WWII victims to the negotiation table (well, figuratively speaking) is a good idea. No matter how it's dressed in words.

But I have to point out that the weight of Polish vote under the square root system proposed by Kaczynskis would be REDUCED, not increased. Even Der Spiegel has to acknowledge that, albeit not verbally (it's on the infographics).
That's the thing that really gets to me. I could sorta understand it if they were pushing for more votes for themselves. But they're really just after reducing the votes of others. It's such a blatant anti-big country (and let's face it, that sorta aims straight across the western border) move.

The most important, and summarily „overlooked” in German analysis feature of the square root system is that it it would be much harder for several big countries (with the support of some smaller) to decide the issues.
Well, votes based on population sort of make sense, don't they? I mean, the whole idea of the EU is that it doesn't matter which country you're from as long as you're from within Europe. You would think every US citizen gets the same vote, regardless of whether they're from Kentucky or from New York.

Yes, it would surely slow down the integration process. But on the other hand it would ensure that nobody is dragged forward at uncomfortable pace by the neck.
But the problem is that a pace that is "comfortable" for all these different countries with all their little issues and all their elections and changes of government would be virtually standstill. If there is no power to actually compel anyone to move forward, there won't be any movement.

Of course I can understand if many Poles are sceptical about giving up sovereignty if they've only really won it less than 20 years ago. But that's a thing that the Poles have to make up their minds about together with their government. The EU is a project that has a pretty clear goal at the end of it and does require sacrifices by member states. You know as well as I do that Poland would be better off in it than not - I just don't see what can be won by dragging feet.

EDIT: Another article, this time about the whole WWII thing.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,490014,00.html
[...]

Luxembourg's Prime Minister Jean-Claude Juncker has called on the Kaczynskis to make a "leap into the present." "You will not be happy in the long-run if you are always looking in the rearview mirror." Juncker is right. But it is worth looking in the Kaczynskis' rearview mirror. Because what the Polish president and his brother, the prime minister, see there is not the same thing that Tony Blair or Jean-Claude Juncker, Angela Merkel or Jose Manuel Barroso see. For the Kaczynskis objects in the mirror appear closer than they really are.

[...]

Poland probably just wants a clause like:
'All homosexual dirty communists will be summarily shot'.

No they don't. The polish government, which most poles do not support, does.

Aw, jeez! Not again! It really pisses me off to no end when the duck twins are doing these things. Really, they have done very stupid things, and seem to hate germans and homosexuals for no reason. We were trying to get everything fixed, but then the Kaczynski twins are taking a wrecking ball at the country's reputation, which is essentially what pisses me off. And it seems to be showing here. Seriously, you guys should realise how low Kaczynski's approval ratings are.

No wonder so many polish people have emigrated.........

No wonder so many polish people have emigrated.........

and have taken the west european's jerrbs

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c140/berrik/Smileys/emot-synpa.gif

edit: CURSES

Wow... I just had a look at the German www.spiegel.de (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,489866,00.html), the headline is that Kaczynski now demands that the Polish deads from WW II should be taken into account to give Poland more votes in the EU.
So far, I thought that whole thing was just a little exaggerated and that some egos demanded stroking, but this? Seriously, this is not just disrespectful and mental, it's downright sick. :eek:

Kaczynski could beat both Bush and Johnny Howard in a stupid contest. Most of his brain cells are unemployed.

Kaczynski could beat both Bush and Johnny Howard in a stupid contest. Most of his brain cells are unemployed.

couldn't agree with you more.

Kaczynski could beat both Bush and Johnny Howard in a stupid contest. Most of his brain cells are unemployed.

I'd say that Howard can weasel his way out of a lot, which usually requires some cunning. He is still a complete tosser though.

I'd say that Howard can weasel his way out of a lot, which usually requires some cunning. He is still a complete tosser though.

Bush has managed to be elected twice.

Still waiting for poland to be something more useful in the EU and a source of cheap easy labour...

Eastern europeans dont deserve a say during this reform of the constitution, all they do is milk us and they aint been in long enough.

Bush has managed to be elected twice.

That in itself is amazing (not in a good way).

A bridge betting system (seems to also be a bridge gaming place) ;) .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Club

Now if only I could learn how to play bridge...

Man, bridge is a real 'there be dragons' area of my brain - someone explained to me that it was similar to rummy, or mahjong but it's one of those things I'm saving for retirement.

However, Polish Club is duly added to my list of 'Things that Poles have accomplished'.

My mum knows how to play mahjong but I have no clue.

I think I will just stick to 13 (nice and simple card game).

Do not forget that the Ducks were only supported by about 35% of the votes and the elections included only 52% or so of the population entitled.

Anyway; while I personally dislike them, I don't understand why bash a whole country for that.... Believe it or not, but we DO have some people with intelligence exceeding one of a random vegetable, such as the aforementioned potatoes.

Last I checked Poland was sortademocracy...This makes the people of Poland responsible for their democratically elected leaders. :)

Guys, I'm Polish and I don't feel good after reading this thread. Frankly, I lost the drive to respond in any meaningful fashion, I just want to remind you that you are talking about real people, not some abstractions.

Very true. I've known many Poles in my time and they've all been respectful and decent people.

No wonder so many polish people have emigrated.........Well, that's the idea - remove Poland from the EU, then let all the smart Poles migrate into the EU (Better weather, anyway). My personal experience has the Polish immigrants as pretty much the best immigrants you can get - I'm most certainly not opposed to them coming over.

The Polish government and the dimwits who voted for them on the other hand, I can do without... (I'd say something about the Polish press, too, but taking a look at the Bild prevents me from doing so without entering the fields of Hypocrisy).

So... Sounds like a solution to me.

It's such a blatant anti-big country (and let's face it, that sorta aims straight across the western border) move.
It can be read that way. Ducks are known for their phobias and they are fanning the remains of past polish-german hot resentiments to fix their waning popularity. It goes along their chosen extremally conservative agenda and I think this is damaging to our country. However, the people seem not to be much impressed by their anti-german propaganda. And the press isn't picking it up, despite what Germans might think. The examples in Der Spiegel presented as representative for the Polish press were very carefully chosen - two from one major weekly trying as usual to raise sales by scandalous covers and one from the publication of extreme right party that isn't represented is Sejm because it doesn't pass the minimum 3% vote limit.

Well, votes based on population sort of make sense, don't they? I mean, the whole idea of the EU is that it doesn't matter which country you're from as long as you're from within Europe. You would think every US citizen gets the same vote, regardless of whether they're from Kentucky or from New York.

Wrong. The votes of citizens of various states of the US cast in the presidential elections don't have the same weight. The whole system was designed to balance the weight of votes of more and less populous states so that although California is more important than Alaska, the candidate can't ignore the smaller states completely.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Electoral_College#History

But the problem is that a pace that is "comfortable" for all these different countries with all their little issues and all their elections and changes of government would be virtually standstill. If there is no power to actually compel anyone to move forward, there won't be any movement.
I disagree - under the square root system the change will be slower, but hardly impossible. It's a step forward - a BIG one - from the unanimous vote. But I think that the double majority system goes way too far

Of course I can understand if many Poles are sceptical about giving up sovereignty if they've only really won it less than 20 years ago.

I don't see it that way, provided that the voting system prevents the dictate of big countries.

But that's a thing that the Poles have to make up their minds about together with their government. The EU is a project that has a pretty clear goal at the end of it and does require sacrifices by member states. You know as well as I do that Poland would be better off in it than not - I just don't see what can be won by dragging feet.
Why, a more just voting system of course.

That in itself is amazing (not in a good way).

I know.

couldn't agree with you more.

Thanks.

The votes of citizens of various states of the US cast in the presidential elections don't have the same weight. The whole system was designed to balance the weight of votes of more and less populous states so that although California is more important than Alaska, the candidate can't ignore the smaller states completely.
I suppose. Not that I am a fan of the electoral college system anyways.

Still, and this is me on a more basic level, but I'm against anything that discriminates based on where one happened to be born. As such I support a rule of 1 citizen = 1 vote regardless of where that citizen happens to live. No one is going to ignore the smaller states because the idea would be that the state doesn't make a difference. Politicians would campaign where they could get the most votes with the least effort, as opposed to the US at the moment where it's marginal counties in Ohio and Florida which decide elections.

I disagree - under the square root system the change will be slower, but hardly impossible. It's a step forward - a BIG one - from the unanimous vote. But I think that the double majority system goes way too far
I think our disagreement might be rooted in two different views of the EU. I see the thing as one group of people, and thus can't understand why we would actually want to give some citizens a bigger say than others.

You see it as a group of countries and thus can't understand why we would want some countries to have a bigger say than others.

I don't see it that way, provided that the voting system prevents the dictate of big countries.
Even if it does, it doesn't prevent the dictate of all the other member states that aren't Poland. You wouldn't change a thing, whether it's France, Germany and Italy voting against you or a coalition of a few more members. The sovereignty goes out the window either way.

Why, a more just voting system of course.
You actually think this is about the voting system? I reckon that's just one issue the Ducks managed to pick up on to cash in on anti-German and anti-EU sentiment, the substance of the argument is secondary.

I love how Merkel got them to shut up in the end. (link (http://euobserver.com/9/24341))

[...]

German chancellor Angela Merkel has threatened to call an intergovernmental conference (IGC) without Poland after Warsaw forcefully rejected a Franco-German compromise package on EU voting weights.

"The German chancellor wants to take a decision at the summit without Poland," German government spokesman Ulrich Wilhelm said. "Poland would then have the chance to join the European consensus at the governmental conference in autumn."

[...]

"You could envisage a situation, in which Poland comes to the IGC and tries to talk about voting. Nobody would switch off the mike, but they would be gently reminded that this is not on the agenda, so their intervention would not be taken into account," he said.

:D

More goodness, same website:

Some Polish officials say they have been made to feel "humiliated" during debates.

"If I was a kid in a class of 27 and the other 26 told me I was a jerk, I would begin to wonder, even if I was the brightest kid in the class," one diplomat from an "old" EU state said on Poland's lone call to reform EU votes."

Bush has managed to be elected twice.
you can blame your two-party system for that.

I think our disagreement might be rooted in two different views of the EU. I see the thing as one group of people, and thus can't understand why we would actually want to give some citizens a bigger say than others.
You see it as a group of countries and thus can't understand why we would want some countries to have a bigger say than others.
But the Europe is both! I think you'll agree with me that it is too early - MUCH too early - to view the Europe simply as nearly half a billion Europeans. I'm looking forward to some point in the future when people will identify rather with the Europe as a whole than with their countries, but this future is still far away. I'm not at all sure if I'll live long enough to see it :( - I hope my daughter will.
And I'm afraid than too much effort put into accelerating that process might accomplish exactly the opposite.

you can blame your two-party system for that.

I suppose so.

Poland probably just wants a clause like:
'All homosexual dirty communists will be summarily shot'.

Don't forget Germans...

In Poland, that probably covers all Germans anyway. :p