NationStates Jolt Archive

People are mindless, vicious animals that need control.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070620/ap_on_re_us/crash_assault)

AUSTIN, Texas - Police on Wednesday were pleading for witnesses to help them track down members of an angry mob that beat a man to death after the car he was riding in apparently struck and injured a child.

Investigators were struggling to piece together what happened Tuesday when David Rivas Morales died defending the driver from members of a crowd leaving a Juneteenth celebration. There could have been anywhere from two to 20 attackers, Austin Police Commander Harold Piatt said.

The car in which Morales, 40, was a passenger had entered an apartment complex's parking lot when it struck a 3- or 4-year-old child, Piatt said. The child was taken to a hospital with non-life-threatening injuries.

The driver got out of the car to check on the child and was confronted by several people, Piatt said. When they attacked the driver, Morales got out of the car to protect the driver and was attacked as well. Police said no guns or knives were used.

The driver got away and is cooperating with investigators, who are not releasing his name.

Margaret Morales said a young boy came to her door to tell her that her brother was lying on the ground outside. She found David Morales, sprawled on the pavement 100 feet from her townhouse, battered and choking on blood.

She said her mother came running after hearing her screams, but police wouldn't let either of them get close to him.

Police arrived one minute after receiving a 911 call, by which time the beating had stopped, department spokeswoman Toni Chovanetz said. But the Morales family complained that medical help was slow in coming.

David Morales arrived at the hospital about 35 minutes after the 911 call was received, said Warren Hassinger, Austin-Travis County Emergency Services spokesman. Emergency officials said police ordered them to wait until the area was secure.

An estimated 2,000 to 3,000 people were in the area for a city-sponsored festival for Juneteenth, which commemorates Texas slaves getting the word that they had been freed.

Several hundred people had filled the parking lot and street as the daylong festival at a nearby park ended and spilled over into the surrounding neighborhoods, said Katherine White, a Morales family friend who lives in a townhouse next door to where the beating took place.

Police said the injured child was a girl, but White said it was a boy with long hair he wears in ponytails.

Margaret Morales said her brother, who was staying with her, was a painter on his way home from work. The driver, whom she knew only as Victor, picked him up and dropped him off everyday, she said.

The Morales family remembered David as a caring brother who loved the San Antonio Spurs and was thrilled when they won the NBA title last week. Earl White, Katherine's brother, said David Morales enjoyed sitting on the porch, watching the neighborhood children play in the parking lot.

"I just want the people caught and brought to justice," another sister, Elizabeth Morales, said. "I want them to feel the same pain that they caused my brother."

I don't think people are mindless or vicious - some are, but that's always true, no matter where you go. ;)

Read the first sentence and I know what incident you are talking about. No.

Read the first sentence and I know what incident you are talking about. No.

Say again?

You - People are mindless, vicious animals that need control.

Me - No.

I can understand why at some times you may think that.. but... to always? No.
I second that "no". To the OP, please do not subsume all humans under some warped minority.

Say again?

You - People are mindless, vicious animals that need control.

Me - No.

I can understand why at some times you may think that.. but... to always? No.

so it was like the justice system only without uniforms?

Kind of ironic how it was the man defending the driver from physical harm was killed... :mad:

To the OP, please do not subsume all humans under some warped minority.

so erm...how much of a minority are we talking about here maybe the human race, great apes and new/old world monkeys?

People are mindless, vicious animals that need control.

By whom? Other mindless, vicious animals?

so erm...how much of a minority are we talking about here maybe the human race, great apes and new/old world monkeys?
Ah, so you have proof that the majority are mindless, vicious animals? Could I see it?

People are mindless, vicious animals that need control.


I am not mindless! :mad:


;)

so erm...how much of a minority are we talking about here maybe the human race, great apes and new/old world monkeys?

Basic motive force of evolution towards the human race: "Let's devour baby chimps!"

Ah, so you have proof that the majority are mindless, vicious animals? Could I see it?

would you like me to list instances of mob attacks or would you rather we go deeper and look at chimpanzees?

would you like me to list instances of mob attacks or would you rather we go deeper and look at chimpanzees?
I'd like us to stick to humans, since that is what the OP referred to.

I'd like us to stick to humans, since that is what the OP referred to.

Speciesism! Chimps are people too! Give chimps the vote!

I am not mindless! :mad:


;)

Have you ever been harsh on here? Great if you haven't. Just wondering.
Down on main street, trying to get my courage up.

How about a "No" option in the poll?

I'd like us to stick to humans, since that is what the OP referred to.

well:

Genocide (which ties in with scapegoating etc) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides)

the mob attacks you see at poorly organized sporting events (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/550179.stm)

then there is cases of thousands beating one individual to death and setting another on fire (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19265774/)

more of people killing scapegoats (http://www.guardian.co.uk/china/story/0,7369,1588658,00.html)

all of this is due to a natural instinct you see in animals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobbing_behavior), the idea that humans don't also have this is absurd

Have you ever been harsh on here? Great if you haven't. Just wondering.
Down on main street, trying to get my courage up.

Hmm. I've pushed the limits of flaming against some white supremacists, but for the most part, no. I fight fire with pies. :)

the idea that humans don't also have this is absurd
So the actions of a minority being propelled by base instincts somehow corroborate your thesis that all humans are mindless, violent animals, when most people in fact do not act off these impulses?

I'd like us to stick to humans, since that is what the OP referred to.

I referred to people, not humans. But, I did imply and mean humans.

I referred to people, not humans. But, I did imply and mean humans.
Your OP made not one reference to a non-human. The rational inference would be that you implied humans, and so you did.

well:

Genocide (which ties in with scapegoating etc) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides)

the mob attacks you see at poorly organized sporting events (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/550179.stm)

then there is cases of thousands beating one individual to death and setting another on fire (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19265774/)

more of people killing scapegoats (http://www.guardian.co.uk/china/story/0,7369,1588658,00.html)

all of this is due to a natural instinct you see in animals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobbing_behavior), the idea that humans don't also have this is absurd

Sure, we have the instinctive urge be mindless animals, but that doesn't mean we are.

I mean granted, I've eaten my share of baby Chimp and all, but...

"Yes, of course." was sarcastic, right?

Speciesism! Chimps are people too! Give chimps the vote!

Careful now - I think there's actually a few people here who really believe that stuff. :p

Careful now - I think there's actually a few people here who really believe that stuff. :p

You mean I'm not alone? ;)

Lets break this down....

People are mindless, vicious animals that need control.

People do indeed have quite a highly developed central nervous system called a brain. So the first segment of the statement is obviously false.

We do posses the potential to be exceptionally vicious. We also posses the ability to be exceptionally gentle and kind (Mother Teresa for instance). All you're doing is isolating one of the, many, extremes of human behavour to support your point while ignoring people's potential for the opposite. If people should be controlled because of their potential malevolence, should they also not be controlled because of their potential benevolence?

We are controlled both by ourselves and the society around us. You appear to be advocating rather draconian controls be forced upon people. Should people be controlled through draconian measures, it would be by humans, no? Humans who are equally capable of the same levels of violence as those who are their subjects. If I am not utterly mistaken this is the blind leading the blind.

Mother Teresa for instance
There are many examples out there, but she's not one of them.

People are mindless, vicious animals that need control.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070620/ap_on_re_us/crash_assault)

"A person is intelligent. People are stupid, malicious creatures..." -i forget

Seems fitting.

DELIVER DE LETTER DE SOONER DE BETTER
THE UPSIDE DOWN STAMP MEANT THE KISSES WERE WETTER
I.S.Y.I.M.D., ILL SEE YOU IN MY DREAMS, HONEY
T.S., T.S., T.S.A., S.W.A.K.
XS AND OS WHO KNOWS WHAT ALL OF THAT MEANS? :p

Read the first sentence and I know what incident you are talking about. No.

lol..and yes..people are people..in the inglorious they are capable of....but then again people are capable of unbelievable acts of kindness and barbarism..you decide the team you want.

Hey! I live in an environment where mob justice is more prevalent than judicial justice.

People as themselves? No. It's the mobs that are problematic. Mob mentality is significantly different from general human mentality. For further information, study social psychology. :)

when most people in fact do not act off these impulses?

erm...I'm sorry but beyond memes we are still shaven space monkeys

Sure, we have the instinctive urge be mindless animals, but that doesn't mean we are.

an example of how we are not would be nice

erm...I'm sorry but beyond memes we are still shaven space monkeys
Which, of course, causes most humans to be mindless and violent? As in actually act on the capacity?

So the actions of a minority being propelled by base instincts somehow corroborate your thesis that all humans are mindless, violent animals, when most people in fact do not act off these impulses?

When white people lynched "blacks" in the 18-1900's, what 'instincts' were driving them, might I ask?

When white people lynched "blacks" in the 18-1900's, what 'instincts' were driving them, might I ask?
You seem to be missing the point. Do most humans act as mindless, violent animals that ought to be controlled, yes or no? If so, I want proof. Proof that actually corroborates this statement. Not isolated incidents. Understood?

You seem to be missing the point. Do most humans act as mindless, violent animals that ought to be controlled, yes or no? If so, I want proof. Proof that actually corroborates this statement. Not isolated incidents. Understood?

As someone earlier noted, even if we needed "control," we'd only be controlled by other humans anyway - so there's no eliminating humanity after all. :p

Which, of course, causes most humans to be mindless and violent? As in actually act on the capacity?

yes, but usually we have outlets such as sport or zombie slaying

Anything to ensure a Hillary win.

That's probably what it would take. :p

Speciesism! Chimps are people too! Give chimps the vote!

Anything to ensure a Hillary win.

You seem to be missing the point. Do most humans act as mindless, violent animals that ought to be controlled, yes or no? If so, I want proof. Proof that actually corroborates this statement. Not isolated incidents. Understood?

As individuals no, but in a mob, yes - it's to do with anonymity as the Zimbardi experiments show. It's why warriors wear face paint, why masked balls (the dances not the, ummm, well those balls) are so much edgier, why My Lai occurred and so much more.

We are constrained in our social habits by the communities we live in and the societal norms they expect - given anonymity, or the feeling of anonymity and we are less constrained.

Add to that the general transferal ability of heightened emotions and a group of individuals can quickly turn into a mob, as do many animals.

So in some sense, yes we do need to be controlled, and we are controlled naturally by a lack of anonymity and a host of societal norms. In those moments when it breaks down, we are prone, not certain but prone, to mob mentality.

You seem to be missing the point. Do most humans act as mindless, violent animals that ought to be controlled, yes or no? If so, I want proof. Proof that actually corroborates this statement. Not isolated incidents. Understood?

Lynchings (plural) do not, when considered in total, constitute "isolated incidents" but rather a tendency within a culture. It seems that something occassionally took hold of (white) people and they then turned on a "black" victim. In your opinion, what was it?

yes, but usually we have outlets such as sport or zombie slaying
So it seems we're pretty good at devising methods to channel our aggresion then, rather than descending in mindless violence against one another, eh?


So in some sense, yes we do need to be controlled, and we are controlled naturally by a lack of anonymity and societal norms. In those moments when it breaks down, we are prone, not certain but prone, to mob mentality.
My only point of contention with the OP was the statement that most humans act like mindless, violent humans and need to be controlled, as we feel it necessary to control animals. I do agree that people in mobs tend to act like utter fools and that reciprocal controls are necessary in any society since men are not angels.

Lynchings (plural) do not, when considered in total, constitute "isolated incidents" but rather a tendency within a culture. It seems that something occassionally took hold of (white) people and they then turned on a "black" victim. In your opinion, what was it?
Right, you're trying to get me to say that they gave into base instincts, then say "aha! but you denied this!", something I never did. On the contrary, I wanted proof that most humans do fall prone to such behaviour (and act on it), thus lending credibility to the OP's wonderful blanket statement. It would be the same if I were asking the OP to corroborate the statement that all Muslims are all indeed violent savages.

So it seems we're pretty good at devising methods to channel our aggresion then, rather than descending in mindless violence against one another, eh?

no riots and such break out at games all the time, we may have an outlet it doesn't mean where not going to turn are mobbing behavior on an unsuspecting victim

Right, you're trying to get me to say that they gave into base instincts, then say "aha! but you denied this!", something I never did. On the contrary, I wanted proof that most humans do fall prone to such behaviour (and act on it), thus lending credibility to the OP's wonderful blanket statement.

Given events dating back over the millenia, it would have to be said that yes, most humans do have the potential to fall prone to this tendency. We have seen this displayed in the Roman empire, amongst the Byzantines, in the middle east and in Europe.

People are mindless, vicious animals that need control.

Given events dating back over the millenia, it would have to be said that yes, most humans do have the potential to fall prone to this tendency. We have seen this displayed in the Roman empire, amongst the Byzantines, in the middle east and in Europe.
Potential, yes. Now this still does nothing to support the OP's contention.

no riots and such break out at games all the time, we may have an outlet it doesn't mean where not going to turn are mobbing behavior on an unsuspecting victim
And I still see no indication of humans being incapable in the majority of acting in a civilized fashion, without being controlled. I am not sure why the obsession with defending the OP's silly blanket statement if all you are arguing is that humans have the potential to lapse into negative behaviour (which is not the same as acting on the potential).

I'd also like to echo what others here have asked with reference to the OP, qui custodiet custodes?

Potential, yes. Now this still does nothing to support the OP's contention.


And I still see no indication of humans being incapable in the majority of acting in a civilized fashion, without being controlled. I am not sure why the obsession with defending the OP's silly blanket statement if all you are arguing is that humans have the potential to lapse into negative behaviour.

I think the OP is clearly over the top in terms of opinion on human beings. Yet there is the middle ground here in that humans do need to be controlled and they are controlled, not in a designed, state-sanctioned way, but simply by the natural evolution of society.

Yet I agree that our natural state is to be cooperative. to be violent or mindless is an unnatural state. There's no advantage to being in a perpetual state of battle.

EDIT: From what I remember of previous OP posts, there's a fairly pessimistic, bordering on 'hatred for the masses' that's consistently shown by this person - all I can say is, live a little and love a little

I think the OP is clearly over the top in terms of opinion on human beings. Yet there is the middle ground here in that humans do need to be controlled and they are controlled, not in a designed, state-sanctioned way, but simply by the natural evolution of society.

Yet I agree that our natural state is to be cooperative. to be violent or mindless is an unnatural state. There's no advantage to being in a perpetual state of battle.
Which is more or less what I've been getting at, so no disagreement here.

Which is more or less what I've been getting at, so no disagreement here.

Indeed so.

Now this still does nothing to support the OP's contention.

Though its obviously - by its nature as a generalisation- a flawed statement, it contains far more truth than most. There is a tendency in the human towards "mob" violence, as has been demonstrated countless times through history.

"I just want the people caught and brought to justice," another sister, Elizabeth Morales, said. "I want them to feel the same pain that they caused my brother."


I guess that the mob who killed her brother had the same idea: do "justice" by making the driver feel the same pain that he caused to the kid.

Someone should teach all these people that:
1.Justice and vengeance are two different things.
2.Justice and vengeance are mutually exclusive.

Idiots, all of them. Except the dead guy, of course. There are good chances that he was the only one doing the right thing.

Oh, I agree with the OP. People can most certainly be mindless and vicious. A person - no, but people - yes.

There's something about the grouping of people into large numbers that has tendency to make them stupid.

I guess that the mob who killed her brother had the same idea: do "justice" by making the driver feel the same pain that he caused to the kid.

Someone should teach all these people that:
1.Justice and vengeance are two different things.
2.Justice and vengeance are mutually exclusive.

Idiots, all of them. Except the dead guy, of course. There are good chances that he was the only one doing the right thing.
I agree. It's a sad story, makes me mad. :mad: I hope they throw the people who did this in prison for a long time.

Who gets to control all the mindless humans???? I'd volunteer, but i'm only a mindless human myself. :(

I saw this story earlier and its pretty sad.

The good news is the child wasnt badly injured. The bad news is that a mob became so out of control and used their misdirected energy to kill what appears to be an innocent man.

I'd rather hear that the mob detained the two men til police arrived to sort it out.

An accident compounded by a tragedy. A mob of emotional people is a very dangerous thing.