NationStates Jolt Archive

This is a thread concerning all this ¨Save Darfur¨stuff that´s been going around in the states. I went to three Darfur rallys so I´m basing the bulk of this off of the stuff I heard at those rallys. The most common thing said: ¨Stop the violence in Darfur.¨ Yes we want to stop the violence in Darfur. The people that don´t are committing the acts of violence. Why are you holding a rally to tell us to stop the violence in Darfur and not offering us any good solutions. Some aid to Bush said that we needed to put harsher economic restrictions on Sudan. Because the first set of economic restrictions really changed much. And there are many more points I can make, but I will save them. The main point is that these people want to stop the violence, but they have no idea how and they generally keep repeating the same words over and over again. Comments? Ideas?

I have found that most of the people who attend rallies, and no offense intended to you or anyone here who might go, do so for purely social reasons. Sure they might agree with the superficial message of the rally, and maybe even fool yourself into thinking the rally will help the cause but its really because their friend janey invited them or their buddy charles said there would be hot chicks, or because they are bored housewives with nothing to do during the day etc :/


Darfur isn't going to be saved by celebrities pimping it or silly rallies.
The UN should act, but they are impotent, so all that can be done are economic sanctions.

you' know I never see theses rallies, am I really that un-hip?:p

course there is nothing else that can be really done in Darfur beyond blowing everything up which I wouldn't really oppose...

Yeah. I´m just really tired of people saying ¨Not on our watch!¨and ¨Never again!¨ If people are saying that, why arent they over there? This isnt a ¨Let´s fight the violence here so they dont have to over there¨situation.

Meh, people don't really want to do anything. They just want to appear to be doing something to satisfy their need to feel good about themselves.;)

Meh, people don't really want to do anything. They just want to appear to be doing something to satisfy their need to feel good about themselves.;)

Exactly.

I have hereby resolved to answer anyone who tells me to save Darfur by saying "Oh! Thank god you reminded me! I was just about to let them perish!"


Let Them Perish sounds like a heavy metal band.

This is a thread concerning all this ¨Save Darfur¨stuff that´s been going around in the states. I went to three Darfur rallys so I´m basing the bulk of this off of the stuff I heard at those rallys. The most common thing said: ¨Stop the violence in Darfur.¨ Yes we want to stop the violence in Darfur. The people that don´t are committing the acts of violence. Why are you holding a rally to tell us to stop the violence in Darfur and not offering us any good solutions. Some aid to Bush said that we needed to put harsher economic restrictions on Sudan. Because the first set of economic restrictions really changed much. And there are many more points I can make, but I will save them. The main point is that these people want to stop the violence, but they have no idea how and they generally keep repeating the same words over and over again. Comments? Ideas?

Did this come across as a drunken rant to anyone else?

Interventionist twaddle. Do I give a flying fuck if the odd massacre happens in Darfur? Well, it might disturb me until I feel the need to straighten my hair, but frankly, it isn't worth a penny of British public money, or a drop of British blood.

Interventionist twaddle. Do I give a flying fuck if the odd massacre happens in Darfur? Well, it might disturb me until I feel the need to straighten my hair, but frankly, it isn't worth a penny of British public money, or a blood of British blood.

Is "blood" one of those weird Limey measurements, like "stone"?

Is "blood" one of those weird Limey measurements, like "stone"?

Yes. Three stones is equal to one blood.

Yes. Three stones is equal to one blood.

Of course, of course.

That's quite a bit of blood TBC is talking about. I guess a moderate amount of British blood spilt is fine by him.

Is "blood" one of those weird Limey measurements, like "stone"?

erm, its more a typo meant to read drop.....;)

Of course, of course.

That's quite a bit of blood TBC is talking about. I guess a moderate amount of British blood spilt is fine by him.

Actually, British blood weighs almost 30 pounds per milliliter. It's a very dense liquid.

Actually, British blood weighs almost 30 pounds per milliliter. It's a very dense liquid.

Wow. That really explains the stiffness...

erm, its more a typo meant to read drop.....
I know. Just having some fun. :D

Interventionist twaddle. Do I give a flying fuck if the odd massacre happens in Darfur? Well, it might disturb me until I feel the need to straighten my hair, but frankly, it isn't worth a penny of British public money, or a drop of British blood.

Is human life really worth so little so you? Sorry, I don't buy it. Nobody is that callous. If you witnessed some of the atrocities first hand, I'm sure your opinion would be different.

Is human life really worth so little so you? Sorry, I don't buy it. Nobody is that callous. If you witnessed some of the atrocities first hand, I'm sure your opinion would be different.

But as it stands its very easy to not care on anything more than a superficial level when something doesn't affect you

no

Heck, there's even "Donate $0.05 to Save Darfur" How does that work?

No offence meant to Islam or its adherants, but history has proven that nothing short of war is going to stop Koranic governments from doing what they want. We've seen it in Afghanistan, and now Iran. Diplomacy just doesn't register with dictatorships. Y'all are right. The only way to stop the genocide is to go over there and fight. That particular solution is not a wise move for the U.S., seeing as it's got two wars going on to begin with.

The problem is, when you get right down to it, virtually none of us actually give a shit about Darfur, the people there, or what's happening. And it's very unlikely more than a tiny fraction of us ever will.

These aren't people we know. We have virtually nothing in common with them. Until last year we'd never even HEARD of Darfur. Ultimately, this is not our problem.

Nasty things are happening, yes. Nasty things are also happening in Burma, Colombia, Congo, Chechnya, the southern Phillipines, Zimbabwe...some of this, we are involved in. Some we are not.

The simple truth is that we cannot take on every situation on earth. All we can do is try and make things better in the places we actually care about.

The problem is, when you get right down to it, virtually none of us actually give a shit about Darfur, the people there, or what's happening. And it's very unlikely more than a tiny fraction of us ever will.

You've got a good point: although I would rather have the genocide end than have it continue, and would even do work to help stop it, it is so remote from my life that it is impossible to care about the death of one-thousand Darfurians the way I care about the death of one parent.
That being said, I think part of being an intelligent human is realizing what is right and what is wrong even when emotions do not really enter into it ("intellectual empathy", I guess you could call it).

That being said, I think part of being an intelligent human is realizing what is right and what is wrong even when emotions do not really enter into it ("intellectual empathy", I guess you could call it).

Sure. If I can do a bit to help, I will, just because it's the right thing to do. I just don't lie to myself that it's because I actually care.

You've got a good point: although I would rather have the genocide end than have it continue, and would even do work to help stop it, it is so remote from my life that it is impossible to care about the death of one-thousand Darfurians the way I care about the death of one parent.
That being said, I think part of being an intelligent human is realizing what is right and what is wrong even when emotions do not really enter into it ("intellectual empathy", I guess you could call it).

You can have empathy alongside apathy unfortunately though

I guess one way to end all the killing in darfur is to wait until they have killed all the people in darfur...if the people in that area have a problem with that...they need to get a pointy stick. Freedom isn't free and no one owes you life.

I guess one way to end all the killing in darfur is to wait until they have killed all the people in darfur...if the people in that area have a problem with that...they need to get a pointy stick. Freedom isn't free and no one owes you life.

People can fight their hardest for freedom and still be beaten down because they face insurmountable odds. Bit of a harsh stance you take

Is human life really worth so little so you? Sorry, I don't buy it. Nobody is that callous. If you witnessed some of the atrocities first hand, I'm sure your opinion would be different.

He hates black people.

The world would operate smoothly if people could deal with their own problems. Unfortunately they sometimes do not have the resources or power. This is what the UN is for. Where is the UN? Oh wait I think that's the sound of the world pretending to care.

SNIP The main point is that these people want to stop the violence, but they have no idea how and they generally keep repeating the same words over and over again. Comments? Ideas?

Tell them to get the UN off it's collective ass, gather up a bunch of troops from member nations, and do something about the situation. There are a lot of troops in Central and South America, Africa, and Asia that aren't very busy right now. They should be able to handle the situation all by themselves. :eek:

The world would operate smoothly if people could deal with their own problems. Unfortunately they sometimes do not have the resources or power. This is what the UN is SUPPOSED TO BEfor. Where is the UN? Oh wait I think that's the sound of the world pretending to care.

I corrected your statement for you. :p

i know that i barely came in here and my opinion at this point doesn't matter to u.
but instead of raising money to send to Darfur so it can be stolen by the government of Sudan and put into the Janjaweed (the ones doing the attrocities) we need to be raising money to hire NGOs like Blackwater, USA to go there kick some major ass, set up some schools and crap like that, and then protect the refugees.


because of this i feel ashamed to be a "World Citizen"
Fuck u U.N. :upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours:

i know that i barely came in here and my opinion at this point doesn't matter to u.
but instead of raising money to send to Darfur so it can be stolen by the government of Sudan and put into the Janjaweed (the ones doing the attrocities) we need to be raising money to hire NGOs like Blackwater, USA to go there kick some major ass, set up some schools and crap like that, and then protect the refugees.

because of this i feel ashamed to be a "World Citizen"


By "we”, I hope you are not referring to the U.S. The U.S. is a little busy right now and spending a lot of $$ for other things. It's a big world and it's time for some other inhabitants of the planet to step up to the plate and do what's needed.

"Isolationism" FTW. (http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard84.html)

He hates black people.

Don't you hate it when simply stating the truth sounds like a childish ad hominem attack?

No, I'm not attacking you...It's been established that TBC, despite being a rather fun poster otherwise, does not appear to be overly fond of black people.

Yes, I do tend to understate things.

Did this come across as a drunken rant to anyone else?

Nah this California girl pushed me over the edge.

Tell them to get the UN off it's collective ass, gather up a bunch of troops from member nations, and do something about the situation. There are a lot of troops in Central and South America, Africa, and Asia that aren't very busy right now. They should be able to handle the situation all by themselves. :eek:

I should go over there. Maybe it will count towerds community service... Wait! I have a better idea! Let´s send Chuck Noris!!!

I have found that most of the people who attend rallies, and no offense intended to you or anyone here who might go, do so for purely social reasons. Sure they might agree with the superficial message of the rally, and maybe even fool yourself into thinking the rally will help the cause but its really because their friend janey invited them or their buddy charles said there would be hot chicks, or because they are bored housewives with nothing to do during the day etc :/


Darfur isn't going to be saved by celebrities pimping it or silly rallies.
The UN should act, but they are impotent, so all that can be done are economic sanctions.

Ideas unite and inspire people; a crucial facet of human existence in that it gives people a meaning beyond themselves.

If only they realised that their actions do not extend beyond themselves.

Principles without actions are empty, actions without principles are blind...

Yes! SAVE Darfur! But god forbid the United States do it, that's just them being world policeman again!

I understand if citizens of the United States want their government to do something, but since we´re in Iraq, Afganistan, and have troops stationed other places, can´t we just take it one step at a time and instead of hosting a ´Save Darfur´rally, why don´t we just hold yet another ¨This war ain´t worth fighting¨rally?

Actully I can see a problem with that. People want the troops home. People generally do not want the troops off in another war, but these problems have yet to be adresesed by the Save Darfur people. When I get back to the United States though, I will force a conversation with someone I know who manages a bunch of Save Darfur rallys and fundraisers.

The Sudan is the largest country in Africa is the first thing you need to know. Secondly only the Northern part of the Sudan is Arab, the Southern part is made up of Christian, some tribal religions and a very small percentage of Arabs. The problems currently getting the worlds attention have been going on for over 20 years now and nothing new has taken place.

Darfur is not new only the headlines are, the war in the South and on it's Western and Eastern borders has been going on for a very, very long time. Religon plays a large part but there is also tribal and ethnic differences entering into it. The South is part of Africa! The North is Arab! The oil is in the South as well as other minerals, you do the math on that one and figure out what is going on.

The war started over twenty years ago due to lots of already mentioned differences but one of the biggest being a huge oil discovery in the South by Chevron and a few other big producers.

A deal was made between the North and South at the time that the oil profits would be split 50/50 between North and South. The only profitable way they could get the oil out was via the Northern port of Port Sudan on the Red Sea, enter the the problem. Very little of the oil money made it's way South.

John Garang and his followers began the fighting the war as African against Arab. In 1986 China saw the potential oil and political vacum starting with a rising Islamic feelings in the North and a soon to be void once the US was seen as a threat in the region.

China saw its future oil needs being partially met in the Sudan and a chance to start filling the void that would be left by the US and other Western nations. The Government of China established a huge embassy in Khartoum, became involved in providing large scale aid projects, building roads etc. China was not seen as a threat due to the growing Islamic government and no threat to the Government of the Sudan.

When the Mahadi and his Islamic followers took control and the US closed it's embassy (for about the third time) the Government of China began pouring in huge numbers of it's folks to again fill the void left by the Americans.

Once again the Whiz kids at DOS didn't do a very good job at reading the streets and figuring out the coming events. From 1983-1991 the rise of the Islamic movement was all over the place, the pro Western government of Namari was toppled in a bloodless coup, the Mahadi took over, started Shari law, Religious courts, banned just about everything, every terrorist group you can think of had offices and training camp in the Sudan (most right outide of Khartoum). Clinton tried to send a signal to the terrorist that he was coming after them and bombed a asprin plant killing a few Sudanese in the process and generally making us look pretty lame.

Fast forward to 2007, The Chinese are in the Sudan now in very large numbers performing projects that we started and providing support to just about every ministry in the Sudanese Government.

The US is trying to reestablish good relations with Khartoum having sent numerous delegations to Khartoum but once again we are behind the eight ball.

The African Union is made up of countries that have been present in every war or conflict in Africa. Like the UN most of what they do is purely show. There are a few good African military units there but for the most part they are corrupt, ill trained, pooly lead and in some cases as responsible for crimes against the local tribes as the waring faction in the Sudan.

It's very simple then - if we invade Sudan, we'll piss off Muslims because we're helping Christians. And if we invade Sudan, we're there for oil. And if we invade Sudan, we'll be fighting the same kind of insurgency we're fighting in Iraq. And if we invade Sudan, we'll be up to our necks in nationbuilding - which we suck at (was just reading how we fucked up China from the days of Stilwell to Dean Acheson).

Any of the reasons that are popular now for not being in Iraq apply just as much for not being in Sudan. Period.

Is human life really worth so little so you? Sorry, I don't buy it. Nobody is that callous. If you witnessed some of the atrocities first hand, I'm sure your opinion would be different.

Perhaps. As it happens, I haven't, and given the countless problems the west could involve itself in, I fail to see why this merits any distinction.

The Sudan is the largest country in Africa is the first thing you need to know. Secondly only the Northern part of the Sudan is Arab, the Southern part is made up of Christian, some tribal religions and a very small percentage of Arabs. The problems currently getting the worlds attention have been going on for over 20 years now and nothing new has taken place.

Darfur is not new only the headlines are, the war in the South and on it's Western and Eastern borders has been going on for a very, very long time. Religon plays a large part but there is also tribal and ethnic differences entering into it. The South is part of Africa! The North is Arab! The oil is in the South as well as other minerals, you do the math on that one and figure out what is going on.

The war started over twenty years ago due to lots of already mentioned differences but one of the biggest being a huge oil discovery in the South by Chevron and a few other big producers.

A deal was made between the North and South at the time that the oil profits would be split 50/50 between North and South. The only profitable way they could get the oil out was via the Northern port of Port Sudan on the Red Sea, enter the the problem. Very little of the oil money made it's way South.

John Garang and his followers began the fighting the war as African against Arab. In 1986 China saw the potential oil and political vacum starting with a rising Islamic feelings in the North and a soon to be void once the US was seen as a threat in the region.

China saw its future oil needs being partially met in the Sudan and a chance to start filling the void that would be left by the US and other Western nations. The Government of China established a huge embassy in Khartoum, became involved in providing large scale aid projects, building roads etc. China was not seen as a threat due to the growing Islamic government and no threat to the Government of the Sudan.

When the Mahadi and his Islamic followers took control and the US closed it's embassy (for about the third time) the Government of China began pouring in huge numbers of it's folks to again fill the void left by the Americans.

Once again the Whiz kids at DOS didn't do a very good job at reading the streets and figuring out the coming events. From 1983-1991 the rise of the Islamic movement was all over the place, the pro Western government of Namari was toppled in a bloodless coup, the Mahadi took over, started Shari law, Religious courts, banned just about everything, every terrorist group you can think of had offices and training camp in the Sudan (most right outide of Khartoum). Clinton tried to send a signal to the terrorist that he was coming after them and bombed a asprin plant killing a few Sudanese in the process and generally making us look pretty lame.

Fast forward to 2007, The Chinese are in the Sudan now in very large numbers performing projects that we started and providing support to just about every ministry in the Sudanese Government.

The US is trying to reestablish good relations with Khartoum having sent numerous delegations to Khartoum but once again we are behind the eight ball.

The African Union is made up of countries that have been present in every war or conflict in Africa. Like the UN most of what they do is purely show. There are a few good African military units there but for the most part they are corrupt, ill trained, pooly lead and in some cases as responsible for crimes against the local tribes as the waring faction in the Sudan.

It's very simple then - if we invade Sudan, we'll piss off Muslims because we're helping Christians. And if we invade Sudan, we're there for oil. And if we invade Sudan, we'll be fighting the same kind of insurgency we're fighting in Iraq. And if we invade Sudan, we'll be up to our necks in nationbuilding - which we suck at (was just reading how we fucked up China from the days of Stilwell to Dean Acheson).

Any of the reasons that are popular now for not being in Iraq apply just as much for not being in Sudan. Period.


Bravo. Couldn´t have been said or explained better.

Fuck u U.N. :upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours:

How civil.

How civil.

What´d you expect from Fundamentalists?

Did this come across as a drunken rant to anyone else?

Yup.... *nods*

Sure. If I can do a bit to help, I will, just because it's the right thing to do. I just don't lie to myself that it's because I actually care.
I respect that you admit that. I know exactly what you mean, and it's a difficult stance to hold. It practically begs for straw man attacks.

i know that i barely came in here and my opinion at this point doesn't matter to u.
but instead of raising money to send to Darfur so it can be stolen by the government of Sudan and put into the Janjaweed (the ones doing the attrocities) we need to be raising money to hire NGOs like Blackwater, USA to go there kick some major ass, set up some schools and crap like that, and then protect the refugees.


because of this i feel ashamed to be a "World Citizen"
Fuck u U.N. :upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours:
Shoo troll. Go away until you realise which smilies are never to be used!