NationStates Jolt Archive

...slap me stupid.

Yesterday evening I was in the area of Arundel Mills Mall in Hanover, MD and, since I needed to go to the bookstore for a new book (Book III in Stephen King's Dark Tower: The Waste Lands) I decided to stop in at Games Workshop for a few.

While I was there, I noticed a game of Warhammer Fantasy was about to begin: Ogres vs. Wood Elves. I decided to watch since I had nothing better to do and it looked like it would be a reasonably quick battle (1000 points).

Cast of characters: Bearded guy, Die-rolling Kid and Young Opponent.

Bearded Guy was playing the Ogres, Die-Rolling Kid was tossing a bunch of D20s and D4s on the table because nothing is more hilarious than pretending to roll D&D dice for Warhammer purposes (over and over and over). Young Opponent was playing the Wood Elves. They seemed to be some kind of gaming club, and I don't know what the relationship was between them, (father and sons? Uncle and nephews? Mentor and gamers?) but they seemed to have arrived together so I figured the game would be interesting.

When the game began, Bearded Guy immediately starts in on the smack talk. When I say smack talk, I don't mean the kind of banter where you look at your opponent and confidently describe all the ways you plan to impale his soldiers with your spears. No, I mean the kind where you look at pretty much everyone else and make a show of saying thigs like "Here's where I get cruel" or "I'm about to teach him the meaning of pain."

Is that a big deal? Not that alone. But it gets better.

So the game starts in earnest and I'm observing quietly, paying particular attention to the abilities of the various units because I intend to participate heavily in the Nemesis Crown and I need to see what I may be facing. I also observed tactics on both sides. This is important because had I not done that, I wouldn't have noticed the cheats.

Oh yeah. But not at first.

In Warhammer Fantasy each player takes turns running through each type of action you can perform during the battle, like Movement, Ranged Attacks, Magic, etc. If you forget, well it's up to your opponent whether to let you go back... Kinda like taking back a move in Chess. At one point Bearded Guy forgot to do his magic phase and when he noticed, he casually said "oops, I forgot magic. Lemme just go back and do that." Young Opponent objected at first, saying "Hey, you forgot... can't go back now." I was interested in seeing how Bearded Guy would react, since he seemed to be the mentor for these boys. Would he be a good sport? Maybe. So he responded by saying "Well okay but if you do that, and then YOU forget something later..." So Young Opponent changed his mind and allowed it. (This will be important later.)

Meanwhile Die-Rolling Kid is still doing his thing when suddenly, Bearded Guy starts to reprimand him. I had no idea what had happened, since I wasn't really paying attention to Die-Rolling Kid at the time. (That becomes important later too.)

So the game moves on and all the while Bearded guy is just giddy with excitement because his Ogres had these special abilities he was going to employ, occasionally announcing his moves loudly for evryone in the shop to hear. (Apparently, Ogres get a special power called "Bull Charge" that he felt was especially noteworthy.) At one point he even sidled over to me and whispered that THIS was the part where things would get ugly.

Well ugly was coming, that's for sure.

His Ogres charged the Wood Elf Dryads. Dryads are a unit type in Warhammer that are like walking trees. Not as powerful as you might think of an ent from LOTR being, but scary nonetheless. Combat ensued, and the Dryads accounted well for themselves. They killed an Ogre and lost only 1 Dryad. (So much for Bull Charge) That's when it happened. A cheat.

In Warhammer, whenever two or more units engage in hand to hand combat, each turn you decide who won the combat for that turn. The loser has to pass a test to see if the troops break and run. When determining who won the combat, you add up bonuses and penalties for various things, but one factor is the number of wounds (hit points) inflicted by your unit. (Most soldiers have 1 wound. Ogres each have 3.)

So when they added up their points to determine who won the combat, I noticed that Bearded Guy told the Young Opponent he only got 1 point for killing 1 Ogre. I wasn't 100% sure I heard correctly, so I kept quiet, but since the Dryads didn't break and run it didn't change anything at the time.

So the battle rages on for another turn and once again it was time to do the hand to hand phase. This time, the Dryads did VERY well. They lost 2 of their number, but inflicted enough wounds to take down 4 Ogres.

Once again it was time to determine the winner and they added points. Bearded Guy said "Well I got points for my banner, 2 dead Dryads, and a rank bonus. You killed 4 Ogres, so it was a draw." This time I spoke up. "Wait," I said, "You count the number of Wounds Inflicted, not kills." To which several spectators agreed. Wounds, not kills. That means the Dryads had 12 points, not 4. Bearded Guy's Ogres had just had their big green butts handed to them. That unit broke and ran.

They ran right past another unit of Ogres. In Warhammer, if a fleeing unit runs by another friendly unit, that friendly unit must ALSO pass a test or they will be so unnerved by watching their comrdes flee that they will run, too. But that was forgotten at the moment. The game moved on until the end of Young Opponent's turn, at which point he said "Hey, that other unit of Ogres has to make a Panic test, too."

Bearded Guy: "Too late. You forgot when it counted."

Buh?

So Young Opponent says, "Well I let you go back and do your magic phase earlier."

Bearded Guy: "Well it's too late. You can't go back."

Buh?

And then, Bearded Guy turns to Die-Rolling Kid and starts to reprimand him AGAIN. This time, I heard what it was. He was reprimanding him for giving advice to Young Opponent. In retrospect, I think it was Die-Rolling Kid that reminded Young Opponent about the panic test the other Ogres needed to take. And Bearded Guy didn't like it. In fact, he was probably mad at me and the rest of the spectators too, since we were the ones that pointed out the error in the hand to hand combat resolution.

So Bearded Guy is now yelling at Die-Rolling Kid and suddenly he stops, looks at Young Opponent and says "In fact, I'll even do you a favor. I'll withdraw." At this, he started to pack up his miniatures and put them away.

At which point he also started muttering something about Young Opponent cheating for having too many points on the table.

Buh? If you think your opponent has too many points, shouldn't you have spoken up at the beginning of the game?

So anyway, it seems to me this guy was just a sore loser, and the way the battle was going, despite his bravado, he was losing. Any fool could see it. 2 of his 3 units were smashed, one was fleeing, and he had only one untouched unit left that was standing in the line of fire of something like 15 longbow-armed Wood Elves.

I was saddened, because he seems to be the leader of some kind of gaming club, a mentor to these boys. If this is the example of sportsmanship he sets for them, I feel badly for those boys indeed.

Why bother playing if you're going to cheat? I mean...unless it's for money.

So wait--what are we supposed to slap you for? Because I wouldn't want to miss that. ;)

And THIS is why I stick to 40k, and only with my buddies. Far less dickery, and combat is much simpler.

the standard rules I use for games is basically, everyone gets one playback a game. You can play one phase out of order, such as go back and play magic if you forget, as long as it wont really screw things up.

That being said, rules for things you MUST take, MUST be taken. If you must take a panic test, it must get taken, evne if you forget you have to go back and do it, or animosity, or to resist pursuing, any test that is mandatory must be taken, even if it means going back.

If you just forget to do something, well you forgot, but you get one go back, but if it's a roll that must be done, it must be done.

And THIS is why I stick to 40k, and only with my buddies. Far less dickery, and combat is much simpler.

Heh 40K was one of the things that toughened my skin when it came to tabletop gaming. I was playing WH40K back when the rulebook was titled "Rogue Trader" and Space Marines came in a box of 30 for $20.00.

Oh, the rules arguments we used to have... Sometimes I think we gathered around the gaming table to argue rules. That was FAR more contentious than anything that happened on the table itself :mp5:

Why bother playing if you're going to cheat? I mean...unless it's for money.

Nerd honor, and such, I'd imagine.

So wait--what are we supposed to slap you for? Because I wouldn't want to miss that. ;)

Tell ya what, if it happens, I'll get a pic and post it on here just for you Nazz :)

That idiot just forgot 1 important rule, It is a game, so have fun... hahahahhah

Heh 40K was one of the things that toughened my skin when it came to tabletop gaming. I was playing WH40K back when the rulebook was titled "Rogue Trader" and Space Marines came in a box of 30 for $20.00.

Oh, the rules arguments we used to have... Sometimes I think we gathered around the gaming table to argue rules. That was FAR more contentious than anything that happened on the table itself :mp5:

I generally just went along with the house rules unless there was a clear and unfair violation. I'm a Dark Eldar/Eldar stealth player, and we use highly detailed and useful terrain, some of which we've made ourselves (bunker made from a chopped PSX, and such), so a lot of melee combat rules never phased me. I still remember the time I managed to down 3 Leman Russ tanks and a couple squads of IG with a squad of rangers, a Wave Serpent, and a squad of warp spiders.

I generally just went along with the house rules unless there was a clear and unfair violation. I'm a Dark Eldar/Eldar stealth player, and we use highly detailed and useful terrain, some of which we've made ourselves (bunker made from a chopped PSX, and such), so a lot of melee combat rules never phased me. I still remember the time I managed to down 3 Leman Russ tanks and a couple squads of IG with a squad of rangers, a Wave Serpent, and a squad of warp spiders.

I think the problem we were having was we'd play a lot during the period when Games Workshop was starting to rework some of the rules, so during that transitional period there were frequently rules that were unclear or even contradictory, and of course we'd always interpret them in whatever light benefitted our side the most.

But then, considering we ignored the Army Lists and my Space Marines all carried Vortex grenades and my Heavy Weapons Squads were armed with Distortion Cannons, it's a miracle we EVER finished a game...

the standard rules I use for games is basically, everyone gets one playback a game. You can play one phase out of order, such as go back and play magic if you forget, as long as it wont really screw things up.

That being said, rules for things you MUST take, MUST be taken. If you must take a panic test, it must get taken, evne if you forget you have to go back and do it, or animosity, or to resist pursuing, any test that is mandatory must be taken, even if it means going back.

If you just forget to do something, well you forgot, but you get one go back, but if it's a roll that must be done, it must be done.

That's a pretty good system, and the way we play is very similar. I guess the idea is that sportsmanship is always preserved and it avoids conflicts of interest.

nicely written.

i read all the way to the end of this very geeky contest that i wouldnt have bothered to watch live.

what an asshole the bearded guy was. it is sad that he cant act as a true mentor to the newer players instead of being a jerk who just needs to win at any cost.

That's a pretty good system, and the way we play is very similar. I guess the idea is that sportsmanship is always preserved and it avoids conflicts of interest.

Yup. Which is fairly key when you're playing with the same group of people on a regular basis.

Which reminds me, I gotta look into getting some more stuff. Maybe a harlequin or two.

I don't play Warhammer, so I can't make a real judgment call. However, I've seen in other games and sports when a more experience player feels threatened, they sometimes use their higher standing in whatever it is to "correct" another player. It might have been something similar, where the Young Opponent was doing better than the Bearded Guy expected and this was his way of insuring a victory.

Or, maybe he's someone who just enjoys lying to children. It wouldn't be the first time.

You know, after the Bearded Guy stormed off (to a different part of the store) I wanted to go over to Young Opponent and say something encouraging to him, like "You were winning anyway" or something... but I didn't want to say anything that might undermine what could have been his dad.

I've got a gaming group of my own that I founded about 7 years ago, and I found myself doing some soul searching, hoping I'd never been that way around the people in my group. I don't htink that I have, but I posted a copy of this OP as a post on our own group's private forum, and so far the feedback has been good ;)

Bad show bearded-guy. Bad show.

This reminds me. I need to get back into 40K sometime. I still have to paint some of my miniatures...

nicely written.

i read all the way to the end of this very geeky contest that i wouldnt have bothered to watch live.


Thanks!


what an asshole the bearded guy was. it is sad that he cant act as a true mentor to the newer players instead of being a jerk who just needs to win at any cost.

Not to mention abusing his authority. That was the part that rankled me most, because those kids are gonna pick up on that and one of two things will happen:

1)They'll start to lose respect for him

2)They'll start to emulate him.

I don't know which is worse, but I guess 1 is preferable if they can take that and make a positive result by looking for a more honorable and sportsmanlike role model.

You know, after the Bearded Guy stormed off (to a different part of the store) I wanted to go over to Young Opponent and say something encouraging to him, like "You were winning anyway" or something... but I didn't want to say anything that might undermine what could have been his dad.

I've got a gaming group of my own that I founded about 7 years ago, and I found myself doing some soul searching, hoping I'd never been that way around the people in my group. I don't htink that I have, but I posted a copy of this OP as a post on our own group's private forum, and so far the feedback has been good ;)

It depends on if you were strictly Warhammer-types. In my experience, bending and breaking the rules in pen and papers, especially as the DM, is almost necessary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASjxHDwLwA8

Has anyone else noticed an absurd amount of warpage in this thread?

The Eye of Terror must be acting up again.

Has anyone else noticed an absurd amount of warpage in this thread?

It depends on if you were strictly Warhammer-types. In my experience, bending and breaking the rules in pen and papers, especially as the DM, is almost necessary.

Well we're 90% Dungeons & Dragons, but a couple members also play 40k and Warhammer Fantasy. My sons both play, as does my wife.

Has anyone else noticed an absurd amount of warpage in this thread?

definitely. Maybe that uber long OP distorted the local space-time field...

Good luck on your Tourney and keep that Bearded Guy firmly in mind to prevent you from cheating. ;)

What a tosser. My orcs would have wiped him anyway.

Also, you can have an entire ogre army?

Well we're 90% Dungeons & Dragons, but a couple members also play 40k and Warhammer Fantasy. My sons both play, as does my wife.

Awesome! But you know what I mean then. As a DM in many situations it makes more sense to bend the rules and make up roles at times when it would lead to a more favorable outcome than to blindly follow the rules.

I've recently started up a game of Cthulhu for my group for the summer, and many of the elements of the game have necessitated breaking the rules for the express purpose of keeping the story going without EVERYONE dying.

Kinda like intentionally killing a character in a gruesome manner because:
1) The characters and players need to know that I'm not above killing them all, and that things in the environment present a very real threat, one we often don't find in D&D.
2) His character was ridiculous, highly implausible, and largely redundant to other characters that were better fleshed out and more sensible.
3) He'd been bugging me all night about wanting special abilities (since Cthulhu is by and large a game about playing average Joes who are totally outmatched by pretty much everything they come across

Not to mention abusing his authority. That was the part that rankled me most, because those kids are gonna pick up on that and one of two things will happen:

1)They'll start to lose respect for him

2)They'll start to emulate him.

I don't know which is worse, but I guess 1 is preferable if they can take that and make a positive result by looking for a more honorable and sportsmanlike role model.

i sure hope its not #2. i tend to think that anyone who would emulate him is already bent that way and just uses his example as an excuse for their own future behavior.

in many ways its good to lose respect for those who we used to look up to but who have since proven that they deserve no respect. there are so many times in the rest of life when we need to step away from our teachers and heros to make our own decisions of right and wrong.

Good luck on your Tourney and keep that Bearded Guy firmly in mind to prevent you from cheating. ;)

Thanks! :)

Awesome! But you know what I mean then. As a DM in many situations it makes more sense to bend the rules and make up roles at times when it would lead to a more favorable outcome than to blindly follow the rules.

I think this is true, but it still isn't appropriate to break the rules because, "ZOMG! I HAVE TO WIN!" If the rules get bent or changed to make the game more fun for everyone, so be it. If the GM put together an encounter that was harder than he though it would be and fudges a few things to keep the party from wiping, that's fine. In fact, I agree that not doing it on occasion would make the game pretty unbearable.

nicely written.
Agreed. I've never before heard of this game, and amn't interested in playing it, but it was certainly interesting to read your account.

That "bearded guy" was quite unfair. I guess that he didn't want to be beaten by a child. In fact it's quite possible that he has a habit of cheating/having double standards and that's how he managed to become such a 'good' player in the first place.

Poor kid. Maybe you should have encouraged him, seeing as he wasn't given a very good example of 'grown up' behaviour. Oh well, let's just hope that he has other older people to play against so that 'bearded guy' doesn't have too much of an influence on him.

What a tosser. My orcs would have wiped him anyway.

Also, you can have an entire ogre army?

Apparently. He was using the Ogre Kingdoms army book and had 3 units of Ogres. 1 was Lead Belchers and the other two were some kinf of melee guys.

Awesome! But you know what I mean then. As a DM in many situations it makes more sense to bend the rules and make up roles at times when it would lead to a more favorable outcome than to blindly follow the rules.

Absolutely. a DM is responsible for making sure the game is fun, and if fudging die rolls or leaving out particularly unbalanced stuff is what it takes, then so be it.

...as long as the players don't take that for granted and start playing stupidly ;)

But I think we'd all agree that in a game of Warhammer, both sides are equal and it's up to the guys whith the experience and rules knowledge to govern themselves to make sure both sides are fair. Since there's no referee or GM, it's all about the honor system.

it's actually funny I see this post today. I got an email just last night that our local GW store was closing, and our gaming league is now without a place to play. We're looking into new places and we think we have one or two, but we lose all our tables and scenery, and of course, the support of an actual GW store.

Was kinda bummed about it, but it's kinda funny to run into this thread now.

And what side you plaing in the summer campaign?

Agreed. I've never before heard of this game, and amn't interested in playing it, but it was certainly interesting to read your account.

Thanks!


That "bearded guy" was quite unfair. I guess that he didn't want to be beaten by a child. In fact it's quite possible that he has a habit of cheating/having double standards and that's how he managed to become such a 'good' player in the first place.

Poor kid. Maybe you should have encouraged him, seeing as he wasn't given a very good example of 'grown up' behaviour. Oh well, let's just hope that he has other older people to play against so that 'bearded guy' doesn't have too much of an influence on him.

I think yuo make a good point. I wonder how long this fellow would last against an opponent he couldn't intimidate.

...I'd love a chance to play him. From what I've seen of his tactical skills, my Bretonnian Knights would eat his Ogres for lunch.

Well the old guy has a extreme case of wankeritis.

Sadly they not a new thing. I remember when I was a lad and war gaming...some of the older folks just seemed to get a real rush out of beating kids. During the game they would use their 'Voice of Bullying' far too often. As this idiot does.

I eventually stopped gaming with the wrinklies (apart from the decent ones .... and they also exist)....I learned more and had much more fun.

This guy is a waste of space and worthy of ban from the GW store...

I think this is true, but it still isn't appropriate to break the rules because, "ZOMG! I HAVE TO WIN!" If the rules get bent or changed to make the game more fun for everyone, so be it. If the GM put together an encounter that was harder than he though it would be and fudges a few things to keep the party from wiping, that's fine. In fact, I agree that not doing it on occasion would make the game pretty unbearable.

Amen to that.

Although I also like to give my players encounters that technically are too powerful for them as a way of encouraging them to try and think creatively. A low level party can handle surprisingly powerful monsters when using good tactics. The XP reward is, of course, commesurate with their achievement.

Why bother playing if you're going to cheat? I mean...unless it's for money.

I find it a lot less interesting, but I suppose he wanted the prestige without the skill

To some prestige is as good as money ...

I find it a lot less interesting, but I suppose he wanted the prestige without the skill

To some prestige is as good as money ...

Prestige in cheating to beat a kid?

Sometimes I feel the world is just moving far too fast! LOL

it's actually funny I see this post today. I got an email just last night that our local GW store was closing, and our gaming league is now without a place to play. We're looking into new places and we think we have one or two, but we lose all our tables and scenery, and of course, the support of an actual GW store.

Was kinda bummed about it, but it's kinda funny to run into this thread now.

And what side you plaing in the summer campaign?

I will be playing my Bretonnians, and I have a backup army of Dark Elves in case any members of my group want to try it.

The Eye of Terror must be acting up again.

Nah, it is the chaos wastes ;) .

Prestige in cheating to beat a kid?

Sometimes I feel the world is just moving far too fast! LOL

How would he look to others if he lost to just a kid? (not saying it is rational)

Yes others knowing of the cheating would reduce prestige, but if he got away with it and people had NOT known he probably would not have suffered a loss of prestige like he would have at loosing

If that makes any sense lol

It's pretty sad, but unfortunately not unheard of in WHFB/WH40K from what I've observed as a player.

And Bearded Guy playing Ogres is remarkably symbolic, if not ironic.

Any grown man who takes pleasure in crushing, let alone cheating, a child opponent likely has problems that extend far beyond the gaming world.

Well the old guy has a extreme case of wankeritis.

Sadly they not a new thing. I remember when I was a lad and war gaming...some of the older folks just seemed to get a real rush out of beating kids. During the game they would use their 'Voice of Bullying' far too often. As this idiot does.

I eventually stopped gaming with the wrinklies (apart from the decent ones .... and they also exist)....I learned more and had much more fun.

This guy is a waste of space and worthy of ban from the GW store...

Once my son (Who plays Empire) was challenged by an older fellow at the Battle Bunker (not far from where my OP story took place.) They played a modest 500 point game and my son wiped the floor with him. The guy was a very good sport, and ended the game with congrats and a handshake. And to his credit, my son didn't brag. I guess as long as those experiences outweigh ones like in the original post, all is well.

I find it a lot less interesting, but I suppose he wanted the prestige without the skill

To some prestige is as good as money ...

I guess if you can say your record is something like 7-2 it sounds good as long as nobody asks who the opponents were...

I guess if you can say your record is something like 7-2 it sounds good as long as nobody asks who the opponents were...

Yeah and like in my other post maybe he was more worried about the loss of prestige at loosing to a kid rather then the GAIN by wining over him

Prestige in cheating to beat a kid?

Sometimes I feel the world is just moving far too fast! LOL

But yanno... not to play devil's advocate, but I don't think Bearded Guy was consciously cheating, in a weird way I can sort of understand what he was feeling. When you set up your Warhammer Army it's easy to imagine it being every bit as effective as you hope. You see every spell cast by one of your wizards landing and doing catastrophic damage or having a devastating effect. You see your cavalry smashing into enemy units and scattering them like ash. You see your gunners and archers cutting a swathe through enemy units like a scythe in a wheatfield.

And that never, ever happens. Warhammer is a game that takes great pains to make the points system fair and balanced such that for whatever size and power level your army is, your enemy will be nominally equal. The contest is one of skill between the players, not the armies. It's easy to lose sight of that.

It's hard to watch your revered units being beaten back by an enemy that was much tougher than you imagined, or watching as enemy arrows turn you into pincushions despite the armor you had counted on so much. And spells never land as often as you think they will.

And when you're the one with the greater familiarity with the rules, it's easy to "overlook" the mistakes that mitigate the humiliation that you feel when all of your hard work and preparation feel like they count for nothing.

But that's why sportsmanship is so important. It's what makes a game like this a contest of skill and honor. There are no referees usually, it's a matter of personal integrity between honest players. Some days you win, some days you lose. Sometimes your army utterly dominates the opposition and others you get creamed so badly you'd swear the dice were weighted against you.

But then, that's what makes each game a challenge and fun. If you KNEW you'd win, what's the point, besides just showing off?

I think on some level a person needs to be crushed to learn the humility it takes not to be a jackass like this. Once, my Bretonnians were crushed by my wife's Wood Elves so badly that I had 2 surviving knights and only killed 2 elves to show for it. That smarted. At the same time, I feel like I've hit my rock bottom and can only go up from there I can't wait to play her again. Even if I lose, if I can manage to lose with less of a margin I can say I've improved...

Absolutely. a DM is responsible for making sure the game is fun, and if fudging die rolls or leaving out particularly unbalanced stuff is what it takes, then so be it.

...as long as the players don't take that for granted and start playing stupidly ;)

But I think we'd all agree that in a game of Warhammer, both sides are equal and it's up to the guys whith the experience and rules knowledge to govern themselves to make sure both sides are fair. Since there's no referee or GM, it's all about the honor system.

This is true. There's no analogous concept of "winning" at pen and paper, which diminishes some of the comparison that can be made.

And players who gain an invincibility complex tend to have their characters die painfully and in an exemplary manner in my games.

Yeah and like in my other post maybe he was more worried about the loss of prestige at loosing to a kid rather then the GAIN by wining over him

Oh I see what you mean... like he was focusing more on avoiding the embarassment than in gaining the satisfaction of a win.

And that's really tragic, because on some level the kids in his gaming club are gonna pick up on that. They're going to feel his lack of respect for them as fellow gamers and it's not going to do much to build their confidence in their own game. Kids are very perceptive.

And players who gain an invincibility complex tend to have their characters die painfully and in an exemplary manner in my games.

As they should. Such characters tend to steal the show and make the other party mebers feel as if they have nothing to contribute.

Oh I see what you mean... like he was focusing more on avoiding the embarassment than in gaining the satisfaction of a win.

And that's really tragic, because on some level the kids in his gaming club are gonna pick up on that. They're going to feel his lack of respect for them as fellow gamers and it's not going to do much to build their confidence in their own game. Kids are very perceptive.

I agree it is tragic but so many people seem to have that sort of feelings all over in real life

How would he look to others if he lost to just a kid? (not saying it is rational)

Well I'd say it was fair play. But then I am used to losing! LOL

Yes others knowing of the cheating would reduce prestige, but if he got away with it and people had NOT known he probably would not have suffered a loss of prestige like he would have at loosing

If that makes any sense lol

LOL!!! My head hurtz!

It's pretty sad, but unfortunately not unheard of in WHFB/WH40K from what I've observed as a player.

And Bearded Guy playing Ogres is remarkably symbolic, if not ironic.

Any grown man who takes pleasure in crushing, let alone cheating, a child opponent likely has problems that extend far beyond the gaming world.

Yeah I think your last point is pertinent.

Once my son (Who plays Empire) was challenged by an older fellow at the Battle Bunker (not far from where my OP story took place.) They played a modest 500 point game and my son wiped the floor with him. The guy was a very good sport, and ended the game with congrats and a handshake. And to his credit, my son didn't brag. I guess as long as those experiences outweigh ones like in the original post, all is well.

Now thats the way it should be done. If anything I get mad at myself for my bad tactics. I also give kudos to the victor...unless they cheat.

But yanno... not to play devil's advocate, but I don't think Bearded Guy was consciously cheating, in a weird way I can sort of understand what he was feeling. When you set up your Warhammer Army it's easy to imagine it being every bit as effective as you hope. You see every spell cast by one of your wizards landing and doing catastrophic damage or having a devastating effect. You see your cavalry smashing into enemy units and scattering them like ash. You see your gunners and archers cutting a swathe through enemy units like a scythe in a wheatfield.

And that never, ever happens. Warhammer is a game that takes great pains to make the points system fair and balanced such that for whatever size and power level your army is, your enemy will be nominally equal. The contest is one of skill between the players, not the armies. It's easy to lose sight of that.

It's hard to watch your revered units being beaten back by an enemy that was much tougher than you imagined, or watching as enemy arrows turn you into pincushions despite the armor you had counted on so much. And spells never land as often as you think they will.

And when you're the one with the greater familiarity with the rules, it's easy to "overlook" the mistakes that mitigate the humiliation that you feel when all of your hard work and preparation feel like they count for nothing.

But that's why sportsmanship is so important. It's what makes a game like this a contest of skill and honor. There are no referees usually, it's a matter of personal integrity between honest players. Some days you win, some days you lose. Sometimes your army utterly dominates the opposition and others you get creamed so badly you'd swear the dice were weighted against you.

But then, that's what makes each game a challenge and fun. If you KNEW you'd win, what's the point, besides just showing off?

I think on some level a person needs to be crushed to learn the humility it takes not to be a jackass like this. Once, my Bretonnians were crushed by my wife's Wood Elves so badly that I had 2 surviving knights and only killed 2 elves to show for it. That smarted. At the same time, I feel like I've hit my rock bottom and can only go up from there I can't wait to play her again. Even if I lose, if I can manage to lose with less of a margin I can say I've improved...

Well...there are plenty of other table top wargames that are wide open to cheating. Not only the Warhammer/GW ones.

One thing I liked about Star Fleet Battles was plotted movement. Even down to firing times.

Of course in fleet actions this becomes a pain so we only plot ships and don't plot the firing times.

Improvement = learning....and that is the key I think. Unless you are a tactical genius.....then no one plays you LOL!

Well I'd say it was fair play. But then I am used to losing! LOL



LOL!!! My head hurtz!



Yeah I think your last point is pertinent.



Now thats the way it should be done. If anything I get mad at myself for my bad tactics. I also give kudos to the victor...unless they cheat.



Well...there are plenty of other table top wargames that are wide open to cheating. Not only the Warhammer/GW ones.

One thing I liked about Star Fleet Battles was plotted movement. Even down to firing times.

Of course in fleet actions this becomes a pain so we only plot ships and don't plot the firing times.

Improvement = learning....and that is the key I think. Unless you are a tactical genius.....then no one plays you LOL!

Yanno, when he jumped on Die-Rolling Kid for offering Young Opponent advice, I thought to myself "It is annoying when people step in and advise your opponent, but when that happens to me, I try and take it as a compliment since it implies that I'm seen as the stronger player. Otherwise, they'd be advising me!"

And THIS is why I stick to 40k, and only with my buddies. Far less dickery, and combat is much simpler.

Ooooh yeah.

What army do you collect by the way?

Yanno, when he jumped on Die-Rolling Kid for offering Young Opponent advice, I thought to myself "It is annoying when people step in and advise your opponent, but when that happens to me, I try and take it as a compliment since it implies that I'm seen as the stronger player. Otherwise, they'd be advising me!"

Yeah...thats a good attitude to have. And at the end of the day it is only a game. No one is dying or anything.

Yeah...I know there are many people who get really wrapped up....hell...I'm a competitive bastard me...and I do get into it...but when it all finishes I don't hold a grudge...thankfully there are also a lot of people who think along the same lines...

Well since there seem to be plenty of good sports around here I issue a challenge to anyone living near my area:

If you play fantasy, I challenge you to a game vs. my Bretonnians!

If you play 40k, I challenge you to a game vs. my Black Templars!

TG me if you accept :)

Ummm....how would they fare against a squadron of D-7's? :p

Well since there seem to be plenty of good sports around here I issue a challenge to anyone living near my area:

If you play fantasy, I challenge you to a game vs. my Bretonnians!

If you play 40k, I challenge you to a game vs. my Black Templars!

TG me if you accept :)

Amen to that.

Although I also like to give my players encounters that technically are too powerful for them as a way of encouraging them to try and think creatively. A low level party can handle surprisingly powerful monsters when using good tactics. The XP reward is, of course, commesurate with their achievement.

The group of gamers I'm in has been together so long that we work together much better than most. This means that we can often handle encounters that we "technically" shouldn't be able to. It also means that the GM has to make things more challenging to keep the game fun. The only problem was that one of our GM's decided that us "making it easy" (ie. finding creative solutions to challenges rather than doing the beat/smash routine) meant that we got less XP. There was quite a bit of rankling at that one, I can assure you.

Yanno, when he jumped on Die-Rolling Kid for offering Young Opponent advice, I thought to myself "It is annoying when people step in and advise your opponent, but when that happens to me, I try and take it as a compliment since it implies that I'm seen as the stronger player. Otherwise, they'd be advising me!"

I think this often depends on how new to the game someone is as well. If Young Opponent were pretty new to the game, I don't think it would be annoying for others to advise him. In fact, I'd say that it could even be appropriate for his opponent to give a little advice now and then. I know people have done it for me when I was first playing a game and others were significantly more experienced. Even if they could have taken advantage of my lack of knowledge on the rules, they often saw fit to say, "Do you really want to do that? Because, you know, you could do this..."

Ummm....how would they fare against a squadron of D-7's? :p

*ahem* LOL

Ooooh yeah.

What army do you collect by the way?

Eldar/Dark Eldar. I like the stealth and strategy involved, and prefer it over brute force.

AAARRRGHHH!!! Fekking bloody warpage!!!! for feks sake!!!!

I think this often depends on how new to the game someone is as well. If Young Opponent were pretty new to the game, I don't think it would be annoying for others to advise him. In fact, I'd say that it could even be appropriate for his opponent to give a little advice now and then. I know people have done it for me when I was first playing a game and others were significantly more experienced. Even if they could have taken advantage of my lack of knowledge on the rules, they often saw fit to say, "Do you really want to do that? Because, you know, you could do this..."

yah I can't say for sure what Young Opponent's experience was like. He seemed to have a good grasp of the rules and his army appeared to be well painted so I don't think he was a complete newb. I think he just lacked confidence. He was very soft spoken (to the point of being hard to understand) and hesitated when making decisions.

...although maybe the reason is obvious, in light of what happened yesterday.

Uh.... well I'd venture to say the Bretonnians would bbe vaporized, but perhaps if the Black Templars got some support ships in place quickly they could handle it ;)

I wish I knew what a Black Templar was! :(

Ummm....how would they fare against a squadron of D-7's? :p

Uh.... well I'd venture to say the Bretonnians would be vaporized, but perhaps if the Black Templars got some support ships in place quickly they could handle it ;)

Hmm, I've always been interested by Warhammer 40k, but I'm already spending money on Magic, and I don't want to go broke.

The Black Templars are a Space Marine Chapter answereable only to the Emperor himself, directly. Unlike other codex armies, they are not limited to 1,000 marines and nobody knows for sure just how large the chapter actually is.

Doh...yeah...I forgot there was a 'space' aspect to the game...

Klingon v Templar...?

I wish I knew what a Black Templar was! :(

The Black Templars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Templars) are a Space Marine Chapter answereable only to the Emperor himself, directly. Unlike other codex armies, they are not limited to 1,000 marines and nobody knows for sure just how large the chapter actually is.

Doh...yeah...I forgot there was a 'space' aspect to the game...

Klingon v Templar...?

Heh I suspect if the Space Marines could teleport a couple squads of Marines into each Cruiser....


/game

Heh I suspect if the Space Marines could teleport a couple squads of Marines into each Cruiser....


/game

They wouldn't even need to. Those Battlebarges could easily take down a Klingon ship.

Heh I suspect if the Space Marines could teleport a couple squads of Marines into each Cruiser....


/game

I think your post killed the jolts servers for a bit ;)

This is why I prefer street hockey to tabletop gaming. If someone decides they can ignore the rules and be a total dick to the young players, you can decide to pull their shirt over their head and not look like a total jerk or get charged with assault.

And, also, the rules themselves are clear and simplistic (I like painting Space Marines with my buddies, but the rules of the game are just too complex for me). And I find hockey fun.

Hmm, I've always been interested by Warhammer 40k, but I'm already spending money on Magic, and I don't want to go broke.

Shop around first. There are cheaper (and some would say better) Sci-Fi mini games out there.

Sounds to me like Bearded Guy was a power gamer; plain and simple, and a childish one at that. I've never had the misfortune of meeting the GW breed of this particular critter, and with any luck I never will.

Shop around first. There are cheaper (and some would say better) Sci-Fi mini games out there.

Sounds to me like Bearded Guy was a power gamer; plain and simple, and a childish one at that. I've never had the misfortune of meeting the GW breed of this particular critter, and with any luck I never will.

I dunno if I'd call him a power gamer. Typically, in my mind a power gamer is somewhat more competent, if not necessarily more mature. A power gamer would have been winning.

I dunno if I'd call him a power gamer. Typically, in my mind a power gamer is somewhat more competent, if not necessarily more mature. A power gamer would have been winning.

I dunno if one would necessarily be winning. I've seen some pretty munched out lists fall rapidly before. Though my experience with Warhammer Fantasy is admittedly limited. Warlord is my fantasy game dou' joir.

Either way, he obviously had his opponent dismissed well before the game even began. Though I'm sure this one probably has a habit of doing so anyway. Maybe not a power gamer, but an ass nonetheless.

I dunno if one would necessarily be winning. I've seen some pretty munched out lists fall rapidly before. Though my experience with Warhammer Fantasy is admittedly limited. Warlord is my fantasy game dou' joir.

Either way, he obviously had his opponent dismissed well before the game even began. Though I'm sure this one probably has a habit of doing so anyway. Maybe not a power gamer, but an ass nonetheless.

Agreed

Well since there seem to be plenty of good sports around here I issue a challenge to anyone living near my area:

If you play fantasy, I challenge you to a game vs. my Bretonnians!

*Whips out the Snotlings but realises that self doesn't live there*

If you play 40k, I challenge you to a game vs. my Black Templars!

*Looks lovingly at Necrons*

I feel both less intelligent and less cool for having read that.

However, bad sportsmanship does no one any good. Play with honor, or don't play at all.

I was saddened, because he seems to be the leader of some kind of gaming club, a mentor to these boys. If this is the example of sportsmanship he sets for them, I feel badly for those boys indeed.

That's stupid. He reminds me of a character in a bad anime. (cookie if ya guess it) The guy was bragging about how he was gonna win the game, "I'm gonna defeat you! Neener neener neener!" and he loses. "NO! I CAN'T LOSE! I HAVE A SUPERIORITY COMPLEX! WAAAAAAAHHHH!" You get the idea.

That's stupid. He reminds me of a character in a bad anime. (cookie if ya guess it) The guy was bragging about how he was gonna win the game, "I'm gonna defeat you! Neener neener neener!" and he loses. "NO! I CAN'T LOSE! I HAVE A SUPERIORITY COMPLEX! WAAAAAAAHHHH!" You get the idea.

Umm...Yu GiOh?

Heee, I have often looked about in that very store. I generally can be found, when visiting Anne Arundel Mall in the Muvico (gotta love the Egyptian motif), Bass Outdoor World, FYE and, very occasionally, at Medieval Times.

I don' wanna play Warhammer, but as a figure painter I have to say a lot of their stuff kicks major ass.

Personally, I collect Space Wolves, an unusual Space Marine Chapter based on the Ice World of Fenris. One of the more rebellious chapters, their culture and aesthetic designs are inspired by that of Viking warriors, and place great emphasis on strength and honor.

If one of you ever encounters one of my Blood Claw units w/ Rhino, your unit will be decimated in assault.

Not to mention I have access to the powerful Venerable Dreadnought, which can double as elite and HQ, amongst other things.

Nerds getting angry. Well, I never.

Hey Neo - Bearded Guy didn't happen to look like this by any chance?
http://cbg.nohomers.net/images/newgrab4.gif

Personally, I collect Space Wolves, an unusual Space Marine Chapter based on the Ice World of Fenris. One of the more rebellious chapters, their culture and aesthetic designs are inspired by that of Viking warriors, and place great emphasis on strength and honor.

If one of you ever encounters one of my Blood Claw units w/ Rhino, your unit will be decimated in assault.

Not to mention I have access to the powerful Venerable Dreadnought, which can double as elite and HQ, amongst other things.

Blood Angels are far cooler, as are Blood Drinkers, one of their Second Founding chapters.

If one of you ever encounters one of my Blood Claw units w/ Rhino, your unit will be decimated in assault.

world eatter posessed marines with demonic talons.

next!

world eatter posessed marines with demonic talons.

next!

Hellions. Eat you for breakfast.

Hellions. Eat you for breakfast.

infiltration squad with transport homer calling in oblitorators in heavy flamer/plasma/missle launcher mode.

infiltration squad with transport homer calling in oblitorators in heavy flamer/plasma/missle launcher mode.

My Mandrakes would take out your infiltrators before they got anywhere near me. I'd then pick apart any other units in the area with a Ravager. And for good measure I'd bring along a Talos.

I don' wanna play Warhammer, but as a figure painter I have to say a lot of their stuff kicks major ass.

*Sends half of army off to be painted*

Personally, I collect Space Wolves, an unusual Space Marine Chapter based on the Ice World of Fenris. One of the more rebellious chapters, their culture and aesthetic designs are inspired by that of Viking warriors, and place great emphasis on strength and honor.

If one of you ever encounters one of my Blood Claw units w/ Rhino, your unit will be decimated in assault.

Not to mention I have access to the powerful Venerable Dreadnought, which can double as elite and HQ, amongst other things.

Aka, you can afford that stuff. I stopped collecting because it got, well, too damn expensive. ;)

My Mandrakes would take out your infiltrators before they got anywhere near me. I'd then pick apart any other units in the area with a Ravager. And for good measure I'd bring along a Talos.

meh, land raider and havocs with lascannons.

Ravager slagged.

My Mandrakes would take out your infiltrators before they got anywhere near me. I'd then pick apart any other units in the area with a Ravager. And for good measure I'd bring along a Talos.

*Sends off Nightbringer*

*Sends off Nightbringer*

Cheap shot.

*Sends off Nightbringer*

now that's just cruel

now that's just cruel

At least it wasn't a mighty, feared Gretchin...

At least it wasn't a mighty, feared Gretchin...

which paralizes the army for one turn while they crack up laughing.

Then a space marine steps on it.

At least it wasn't a mighty, feared Gretchin...

Hehehehe, Gretchins. The only unit in 40k to make Snotlings look GOOD.

*Sends off Nightbringer*

Their not as great as you would think, I played a necron player a while ago who fielded one, and because it can't deepstrike, infiltrate and only moves 6" a turn, put enough space and lascannons between you and it, and it wont last long unless it gets into assualt. Then all of a sudden the necron player is 360 pts down the drain.

which paralizes the army for one turn while they crack up laughing.

Then a space marine steps on it.

The SM now has to be bothered cleaning his armour and that takes a lot of time. Gretchin wins!

Their not as great as you would think, I played a necron player a while ago who fielded one, and because it can't deepstrike, infiltrate and only moves 6" a turn, put enough space and lascannons between you and it, and it wont last long unless it gets into assualt. Then all of a sudden the necron player is 360 pts down the drain.

*Makes up fluff house rules*

The SM now has to be bothered cleaning his armour and that takes a lot of time. Gretchin wins!

unless it's death guard...in which case they might like it.

unless it's death guard...in which case they might like it.

The only really broken unit I've come across is the Tyranid Spore Cannon. Doesn't need line of sight to fire, and it's got ridiculous range. You could theoretically put it on an inaccessible part of the map, or at the least a hard to access part of the map, and at that point you've basically won, because nothing can get close enough, fast enough, to kill it without incurring heavy losses.

Wouldn't it be the Khornites that would revel in the slaughter?

Anyway, they stink and probably have a really bad tinea infection...

Umm...Yu GiOh?

Bingo. (Gives MrWho a cookie)

Bingo. (Gives MrWho a cookie)

Huh. I was going to say DBZ (Vegeta got emo).

Bingo. (Gives MrWho a cookie)

OMG I was thinking that... I feel... corrupted...

Nerds getting angry. Well, I never.

Hey Neo - Bearded Guy didn't happen to look like this by any chance?
http://cbg.nohomers.net/images/newgrab4.gif

Only a little, thankfully... Although if I had to choose a Simpsons character to represent him based on just looks, that would be the one...

Huh. I was going to say DBZ (Vegeta got emo).

Way too much posturing in DBZ. And whenever they're showing off their power, it looks like farting.

OMG I was thinking that... I feel... corrupted...

Don't worry, you'll get over it.

The only really broken unit I've come across is the Tyranid Spore Cannon. Doesn't need line of sight to fire, and it's got ridiculous range. You could theoretically put it on an inaccessible part of the map, or at the least a hard to access part of the map, and at that point you've basically won, because nothing can get close enough, fast enough, to kill it without incurring heavy losses.

ehh, still ways of dealing with that. A defiler with indirect fire can just shell it for example.

Admittedly it IS annoying, but not impossible, any ordinance template using weapon should be able to take it out. Or just a demon prince with wings and monsterous stature can get there fast and just eat it.

Don't worry, you'll get over it.

I wish I could blame it on my kids. As a parent I often know more about contemporary kids' TV fare than I'd like to, but in the case of Yugi Oh I blame my wife.

...and that once one of those card duels got started, it was hard to look away...

While I don't play these board games (although from reading this thread, they do sound interesting), poor sportsmanship in any game should never be allowed. If I was the Kid, I would never play bearded guy ever again.

While I don't play these board games

minor clarification. Warhammer and the like are not "board" games, as there is no board like chess, or monopoly or other such. They are more properly refered to as "tabletop games", where the play surface is considerably larger than a typical game board, about 6' x 4' is common

minor clarification. Warhammer and the like are not "board" games, as there is no board like chess, or monopoly or other such. They are more properly refered to as "tabletop games", where the play surface is considerably larger than a typical game board, about 6' x 4' is common

We typically just use a ping-pong table. I forget what the dimensions are, but it's more or less adequate.

minor clarification. Warhammer and the like are not "board" games, as there is no board like chess, or monopoly or other such. They are more properly refered to as "tabletop games", where the play surface is considerably larger than a typical game board, about 6' x 4' is common

Frankly I find it outrageous that grown men with beards still play this sort of game let alone take advandtage of newbie kids. I mean I used to do this very thing myself, in fact my oldest boy has just started, but I stopped by the time I was 21 or so.

Heheh girls and beer!

Frankly I find it outrageous that grown men with beards still play this sort of game let alone take advandtage of newbie kids. I mean I used to do this very thing myself, in fact my oldest boy has just started, but I stopped by the time I was 21 or so.

Heheh girls and beer!

This is true.

Girls & Beer > Tabletop gaming

There are times, though, when Girls & Beer are basically unavailable, which is when we typically schedule Tabletop gaming

minor clarification. Warhammer and the like are not "board" games, as there is no board like chess, or monopoly or other such. They are more properly refered to as "tabletop games", where the play surface is considerably larger than a typical game board, about 6' x 4' is common

Ok, correction, tabletop game.

Frankly I find it outrageous that grown men with beards still play this sort of game let alone take advandtage of newbie kids. I mean I used to do this very thing myself, in fact my oldest boy has just started, but I stopped by the time I was 21 or so.

Heheh girls and beer!

Bah it's a hobby. I'm 33 and I love it, and I mean to play my grandchildren in either this game or others like it. Between the artistry of painting the miniatures and the strategic challenge of the game itself, I see no reason adults shoudl avoid it....

...especially when you have already secured your female access :D

While I don't play these board games (although from reading this thread, they do sound interesting), poor sportsmanship in any game should never be allowed. If I was the Kid, I would never play bearded guy ever again.

I don't know at what level Young Opponent has a choice, since if Bearded Guy is the leader of a gaming club, it may be difficult or awkward to avoid it.

In the Tournament rules, at the end of each match there's a chance to rate the sportsmanship of your opponent. (This particular incident wasn't a tournament game) I believe there are awards for good sportsmanship or sanctions against those who consistently rate poorly, but I don't know the details.

Bah it's a hobby. I'm 33 and I love it, and I mean to play my grandchildren in either this game or others like it. Between the artistry of painting the miniatures and the strategic challenge of the game itself, I see no reason adults shoudl avoid it....

...especially when you have already secured your female access :D

Ohh don't get me wrong I'm not knocking it, indeed several of my friends still play.

But the majority of players are teenage boys. Once I hit a certian age, I just found the company of teenage boys not as enbjoyable as when I was a teenage boy.

And hobby, yeah but truthfully, how many adult players do you know that make this hobby a life, not just somthing to do on the od weekend, but it takes up space from other aspects of life?

This beardyman is a fine example, and not alone example of what this hobby does to the adult brain. For gawds sakes, he takes it sooooo seriuosly that he has to cheat children!

Ohh don't get me wrong I'm not knocking it, indeed several of my friends still play.

But the majority of players are teenage boys. Once I hit a certian age, I just found the company of teenage boys not as enbjoyable as when I was a teenage boy.

And hobby, yeah but truthfully, how many adult players do you know that make this hobby a life, not just somthing to do on the od weekend, but it takes up space from other aspects of life?

This beardyman is a fine example, and not alone example of what this hobby does to the adult brain. For gawds sakes, he takes it sooooo seriuosly that he has to cheat children!

This is why I'm sooo glad I made aviation a hobby, it's something that can be enjoyed by everyone of all ages and it doesn't create competition, unless it's during aerobatics competition, air racing, or aircraft shows (it's like car shows) but even then, we all have a great time and enjoy the company of our fellow pilots. :)

This is why I'm sooo glad I made aviation a hobby, it's something that can be enjoyed by everyone of all ages and it doesn't create competition, unless it's during aerobatics competition, air racing, or aircraft shows (it's like car shows) but even then, we all have a great time and enjoy the company of our fellow pilots. :)


I guess I really havn't got a hobby any more, umm reading and music perhaps. playing with the kids, fighting with the kids, ummm ohh heh and beer!

I guess I really havn't got a hobby any more, umm reading and music perhaps. playing with the kids, fighting with the kids, ummm ohh heh and beer!

Kids are your hobbies! If that sounded dirty, then well that just tells us something about you doesn't it? lol :p

Kids are your hobbies! If that sounded dirty, then well that just tells us something about you doesn't it? lol :p

Heheh okay then I feel I must make it clear, not my kids, other kids, you know neigbourhood children!

Heheh okay then I feel I must make it clear, not my kids, other kids, you know neigbourhood children!

This is for you. (http://www.barbneal.com/wav/tvthemes/mrrogers.wav) :D

This is for you. (http://www.barbneal.com/wav/tvthemes/mrrogers.wav) :D

I was jokin' god dam it!:eek:

I was jokin' god dam it!:eek:

I still stand by the Mr. Rogers Neighborhood theme song. :D

I still stand by the Mr. Rogers Neighborhood theme song. :D

It was scary man, must be an American thing.

Ohh don't get me wrong I'm not knocking it, indeed several of my friends still play.

But the majority of players are teenage boys. Once I hit a certian age, I just found the company of teenage boys not as enbjoyable as when I was a teenage boy.

And hobby, yeah but truthfully, how many adult players do you know that make this hobby a life, not just somthing to do on the od weekend, but it takes up space from other aspects of life?

This beardyman is a fine example, and not alone example of what this hobby does to the adult brain. For gawds sakes, he takes it sooooo seriuosly that he has to cheat children!

I see your point, but I think a character flaw like that may find expression in a game like this but I doubt it could be caused by it. I can easily picture the same person playing Chess that way.

I suspect, if anything, maybe he was drawn to the game specifically because he felt he could beat up on younger and less experienced players. I wonder how often he challenges adults.

...but I mean to find out. If I see him around again, I believe I will issue a challenge.

I, myself, am one of those occasional players, with occasional fits of activity like right now, as I prepare for the Nemesis Crown.

I see your point, but I think a character flaw like that may find expression in a game like this but I doubt it could be caused by it. I can easily picture the same person playing Chess that way.

I suspect, if anything, maybe he was drawn to the game specifically because he felt he could beat up on younger and less experienced players. I wonder how often he challenges adults.

...but I mean to find out. If I see him around again, I believe I will issue a challenge.

I, myself, am one of those occasional players, with occasional fits of activity like right now, as I prepare for the Nemesis Crown.

If you do, and you find out his name is Simon, and he is a Druid. I know Him!:eek:

If you do, and you find out his name is Simon, and he is a Druid. I know Him!:eek:

Well I didn't catch his name, and I don't know if he's a Druid.

If it turns out you DO know this person, then is this how he is normally, or did I just see him on a bad day?

I wish I could blame it on my kids. As a parent I often know more about contemporary kids' TV fare than I'd like to, but in the case of Yugi Oh I blame my wife.

...and that once one of those card duels got started, it was hard to look away...

I used to like that, but I grew out of it. I got a mountain of worthless cards, 50 cents apiece. Looking for buyers.

Well I didn't catch his name, and I don't know if he's a Druid.

If it turns out you DO know this person, then is this how he is normally, or did I just see him on a bad day?

Ohh heh this is how he normaly is.

I used to like that, but I grew out of it. I got a mountain of worthless cards, 50 cents apiece. Looking for buyers.

This is why I play magic. My cards still retain their value.

as an aside, nemesis crown looks like THE lamest summer campaign ever, especially after the storms of chaos and 13th black crusade.

THOSE were good events, but then again, it's really hard to beat archeon/abaddon in just sheer badassness, along with the inclusion and resurrection of manfred in the storms of chaos.

Ohh heh this is how he normaly is.

I'd like to try and confirm whether or not it was he... Can you TG me with a description of the person you're thinking of?

This is why I play magic. My cards still retain their value.

Yeah that's what I used to tell myself before my Revised Shivan Dragons tanked.

as an aside, nemesis crown looks like THE lamest summer campaign ever, especially after the storms of chaos and 13th black crusade.

THOSE were good events, but then again, it's really hard to beat archeon/abaddon in just sheer badassness, along with the inclusion and resurrection of manfred in the storms of chaos.

Well since I have never done one before, I can't really be disappointed ;)

Yeah that's what I used to tell myself before my Revised Shivan Dragons tanked.

Oh, well I play standard a little bit, so I sell some cards I don't need before a set rotates out.

There's one of these in every group. In the SCA and Ren Faires, they're called Period Nazis, and I've heard of SCA period Nazis going to Ren Faires specifically to berate the rennie n00bs. Ugh. Why is it that some folks can't stand to see other people have fun, and feel the need to ruin it for every one?

I've had fellow gamers use player knowledge and (apparently) a bilocation machine to kill one of my very favorite characters.

I've asked our Cyberpunk 2020 GM what the roll would be to sneak a slap patch like device onto someone, and had another player mutter "Now why would you have a slap patch?" and wander into the other room with the Solo and come back out, explaining that she'd just made him immune to all toxins. Something she 'always does' but forgot to mention it until just then. This is the same person who, when GMing another CyberPunk session, threatened to dock XP for using player knowledge. Grrrrrrrr...

There's one of these in every group. In the SCA and Ren Faires, they're called Period Nazis, and I've heard of SCA period Nazis going to Ren Faires specifically to berate the rennie n00bs. Ugh. Why is it that some folks can't stand to see other people have fun, and feel the need to ruin it for every one?

I've had fellow gamers use player knowledge and (apparently) a bilocation machine to kill one of my very favorite characters.

I've asked our Cyberpunk 2020 GM what the roll would be to sneak a slap patch like device onto someone, and had another player mutter "Now why would you have a slap patch?" and wander into the other room with the Solo and come back out, explaining that she'd just made him immune to all toxins. Something she 'always does' but forgot to mention it until just then. This is the same person who, when GMing another CyberPunk session, threatened to dock XP for using player knowledge. Grrrrrrrr...

Sounds like it's time for a new GM.

Sounds like it's time for a new GM.

Well, that group broke up as the GM started getting more and more into meth. We were living with them at the time (BAD IDEA!!!) and they took most of our stuff - fencing gear, garb, camping stuff, DVDs... The only reason we let them keep it was because they were paranoid before the meth. And they had a shot gun. So we just decided to let it go - our shit wasn't worth a load of buck shot in the ass.

This is why I play magic. My cards still retain their value.

Even the ancient ones with crappy power/effects/whatever you got?

Even the ancient ones with crappy power/effects/whatever you got?

Eh, those aren't worth anything to begin with...the stores nearby have a box of crappy cards that are worth 10 cents each, no matter how old they are.

But there are some little kids I know who'll pay extra for old cards.

A nice big ol' cookie for identifying the source of the following phrase:

"I am Galstaff, Sorcerer of Light!"

A nice big ol' cookie for identifying the source of the following phrase:

"I am Galstaff, Sorcerer of Light!"

I believe this has to do with Dungeons and Dragons and the Dead Alewives.

I believe this has to do with Dungeons and Dragons and the Dead Alewives.

Will that be oatmeal or chocolate chip?

Will that be oatmeal or chocolate chip?

Oatmeal, I've already had a chocolate muffin today.

*Hands over plateful of oven-baked oatmeal cookies*

Thank you!

*eats cookies*

Oatmeal, I've already had a chocolate muffin today.

*Hands over plateful of oven-baked oatmeal cookies*

A nice big ol' cookie for identifying the source of the following phrase:

"I am Galstaff, Sorcerer of Light!"

The Dead Alewives sketch was then later converted into a CGI video at the end of the video game The Summoner, featuring two characters (and a demon) from The Summoner and a character from Red Faction.

...can I get a cookie too? *puppy dog eyes*

So how complicated are these tabletop games anyways?

Eh, those aren't worth anything to begin with...the stores nearby have a box of crappy cards that are worth 10 cents each, no matter how old they are.

But there are some little kids I know who'll pay extra for old cards.

I didn't think they were. I have cards that used to be the best in the game, but now they completely suck. Still even if I sold them a dime each, I have about a hundred, and my brother has about another hundred. And some of them aren't crappy at all.

So how complicated are these tabletop games anyways?

Depends on which one you're playing. Some get pretty in-depth into things like morale and formation while others are pretty loose. Warhammer's on the more complicated end of the spectrum and I've still seen kids as young as 12 pick it up no problem.

A nice big ol' cookie for identifying the source of the following phrase:

"I am Galstaff, Sorcerer of Light!"

Specifically: Summoner Geeks part I

(there's a part II but it's audio only.)

Depends on which one you're playing. Some get pretty in-depth into things like morale and formation while others are pretty loose. Warhammer's on the more complicated end of the spectrum and I've still seen kids as young as 12 pick it up no problem.

I've seen 'em pick it up even younger. Once my younger son and I (He's 11) were playing 40K against this other kid, and during the course of the game a boy wandered by who couldn't possibly have been older than 9 or so. Talk about a game dictionary... He clarified our rules questions, gave advice (when asked) and generally acted as a referee. and he was GOOD at it.

I've seen 'em pick it up even younger. Once my younger son and I (He's 11) were playing 40K against this other kid, and during the course of the game a boy wandered by who couldn't possibly have been older than 9 or so. Talk about a game dictionary... He clarified our rules questions, gave advice (when asked) and generally acted as a referee. and he was GOOD at it.

And Warhammer's considered one of the complicated ones.

None of the games I've come across and played have ever been as complicated as they seem. Starfleet Battles ranks around the highest, but it's only complicated if you want it to be.

And Warhammer's considered one of the complicated ones.

None of the games I've come across and played have ever been as complicated as they seem. Starfleet Battles ranks around the highest, but it's only complicated if you want it to be.

On the topic of fleets, I've never taken part (we've never bothered to look into acquiring) fleet units for Warhammer 40k (assuming they exist. I'm assuming you can go out and buy a battlebarge and I'm just looking in the wrong spot). How good is the fleet combat in 40k?

On the topic of fleets, I've never taken part (we've never bothered to look into acquiring) fleet units for Warhammer 40k (assuming they exist. I'm assuming you can go out and buy a battlebarge and I'm just looking in the wrong spot). How good is the fleet combat in 40k?

40K fleet combat is a game called Battlefleet Gothic (http://www.specialist-games.com/battlefleetgothic/Default.asp). It's one of their specialist games (meaning, by comparison, it gets almost nil support than 40k and Fantasy). It's decent: rolls to hit are based on range and the heading of the ship you're firing at (it's easier to hit a ship headed right for you than one running parallel to you), different arcs have different armor ratings, and there are rules for squadrons combining fire. Unless things have changed in the 10 years since I've played.

Of the specialist games, Gothic has probably received the most official support. When it started it was just Imperials, Chaos, some Eldar and some Orks. Now there are Space Marines, Tau, Necrons, and Tyranids as well.

*edit*-actually, it appears that the Battlefleet Gothic rules are available for free download as well.

Though really, I'd rather play Full Thrust (http://www.groundzerogames.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=9&id=29&Itemid=50). Free rules, a great build-your-own ship system, and simultaneous movement

And Warhammer's considered one of the complicated ones.

None of the games I've come across and played have ever been as complicated as they seem. Starfleet Battles ranks around the highest, but it's only complicated if you want it to be.

Warhammer has come a long way. Back in the Rogue Trader days it was downright grotesque, especially in the Vehicle rules. Imagine for every hit on a Land Raider, having to figureout what the angle was it was hit from, then consulting a tabel to see what the random hit location was, then consulting a series of tables to determine what, exactly, happened.

And imagine the vehicle's movement not being as simple as "move x inches" but rather, having to accelerate then decelerate to/from top speed...

oy!

Warhammer has come a long way. Back in the Rogue Trader days it was downright grotesque, especially in the Vehicle rules. Imagine for every hit on a Land Raider, having to figureout what the angle was it was hit from, then consulting a tabel to see what the random hit location was, then consulting a series of tables to determine what, exactly, happened.

And imagine the vehicle's movement not being as simple as "move x inches" but rather, having to accelerate then decelerate to/from top speed...

oy!

Eh, I won't go back to 40k. Sorry, but rampant rules revisions that haven't really improved anything, overpriced miniatures, and, at least in my experience, players like Bearded Guy are becoming the norm drove me out over a year ago. It's been going downhill ever since 2nd edition.

Fantasy I might be convinced to give a shot, but 40k lost me.

Eh, I won't go back to 40k. Sorry, but rampant rules revisions that haven't really improved anything, overpriced miniatures, and, at least in my experience, players like Bearded Guy are becoming the norm drove me out over a year ago. It's been going downhill ever since 2nd edition.

Fantasy I might be convinced to give a shot, but 40k lost me.

I used to highly resent the prices of miniatures, too.

I remember back when I was in high school. All of the miniatures were made from lead. They were pretty expensive then, but not like today. Well at some point the laws changed such that metal miniatures could no longer be made from lead. Games Workshop did so, then doubled the price. Ral Partha did so, then cut their price in half.

The owner of a local gaming store explained it to me. Apparently, the production cost of pewter miniatures is much lower than that of lead. Not only was pewter cheaper, but it was kinder on the molds which meant they had to be replaced less frequently. It meant an overall lower production cost, but because people think of pewter as an almost precious metal (thanks, Franklin Mint) GW got away with jacking up the price.

Having said all that, I don't mind so much the cost of the miniatures. GW has really good customer service, you can use their gaming tables for free whenever you want, they have good events, and the staff has always been very helpful even in ways that don't result in a sale.