NationStates Jolt Archive

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070615-copyright-coalition-piracy-more-serious-than-burglary-fraud-bank-robbery.html

For the more than nine years that Ars Technica has been publishing online, we've been outspoken when it comes to the lack of balance between the threat of piracy (which is always overstated) and the "solutions" to piracy (which are often draconian) that some copyright holders demand. Whether it's laws that would turn the possession of software into a crime, completely baked piracy reports, or yet another law meant to criminalize civil infractions, we've cast a critical eye on an industry that defines solipsism.

And, everyone once and while, we're accused of hyperbole—of exaggerating our objections. That's why it's with both a grin and a lonely tear that I report to you the latest ridiculous claim from the copyright-trumps-all brigade.

NBC/Universal general counsel Rick Cotton suggests that society wastes entirely too much money policing crimes like burglary, fraud, and bank-robbing when it should be doing something about piracy instead.

"Our law enforcement resources are seriously misaligned," Cotton said. "If you add up all the various kinds of property crimes in this country, everything from theft, to fraud, to burglary, bank-robbing, all of it, it costs the country $16 billion a year. But intellectual property crime runs to hundreds of billions [of dollars] a year." Cotton's comments come in Paul Stweeting's report on Hollywood's latest shenanigans on Capitol Hill.

There are two obvious rejoinders to such a ridiculous statement. The first is that "hundreds of billions of dollars a year" is a myth. The MPAA's own cherry-picked study from Smith Barney in 2005 put their annual loss at less than $6 billion, and while the music and software industries also like to publish trumped-up claims, the figures are nowhere near hundreds of billions of dollars each year.

The second objection, of course, is that the traditional crimes Cotton describes often involve the destruction of people's lives along with property. Burglaries can result in homicide, as can fraud (ask the preacher's wife), while bank robbery is, without a doubt, a dangerous game. Those crimes also typically involve real property. For better or for worse, real property should not be confused with intellectual property, which is not subject to the same rules of scarcity. Stopping a bank heist is, without a doubt, a far more important matter than stopping the bootlegging of Gigli or Spider-Man 3. Chances are you would prefer that the cops spend their efforts protecting people from rampant home burglaries than chasing down kids with pirated music on their iPods.

Regardless, Cotton and his Coalition Against Counterfeiting and Piracy are seeking to change federal law enforcement emphasis so that intellectual property crimes are given priority over other kinds of crime... a realignment, to play off Cotton's statement. Battling organized crime is hardly objectionable, and we hope the coalition sees success in taking down the profiteers of piracy. Offending the public with yet more lies and hyperbole isn't going to curry much favor, however.

Yes, that's right. Downloading Iron Maiden makes you worse than a burglar.

Yes, that's right. Downloading Iron Maiden makes you worse than a burglar.

That's not what he said; he never claimed that individuals pirates were "worse" than burglars, but rather that piracy exacts a greater toll on society than does common theft. Did you read his statement?

"Our law enforcement resources are seriously misaligned," Cotton said. "If you add up all the various kinds of property crimes in this country, everything from theft, to fraud, to burglary, bank-robbing, all of it, it costs the country $16 billion a year. But intellectual property crime runs to hundreds of billions [of dollars] a year."

While I fully agree that copyright infringement is a serious offense, I can't justify requisitioning resources from other more important police duties to confront it.

This is among the most ridiculous things I've ever heard, and I've spent a lot of time on the internet. Unless pirating mp3s and what not changes in such a way that it directly threatens people's lives that man will be a fine candidate for "Biggest Tool Ever".

That's not what he said; he never claimed that individuals pirates were "worse" than burglars, but rather that piracy exacts a greater toll on society than does common theft. Did you read his statement?

"Our law enforcement resources are seriously misaligned," Cotton said. "If you add up all the various kinds of property crimes in this country, everything from theft, to fraud, to burglary, bank-robbing, all of it, it costs the country $16 billion a year. But intellectual property crime runs to hundreds of billions [of dollars] a year."

Yeah what he's saying is that cops should forget about everybody else's problems with crime, 'cause HIS personal problems with crime trump all our petty concerns. 'Cause after all, he's part of a corporation, and corporations are more important than anyone else.

You know what? Screw Cthulhu. Rick Cotton '08!

No, he's simply stating that a more equitable balance should be struck. Ideally, the losses incurred because of theft via both a physical and electronic medium should be minimized. We are not currently in such a balanced state as online theft is resulting in the losses of hundreds of billions of dollars.

Physical theft also puts lives at risk. Electronic theft does not. Therefore physical theft is clearly of much higher priority than electronic theft, regardless of how much is lost because of it.

You know what? Screw Cthulhu. Rick Cotton '08!

Why vote for the lesser of two evils?

Yeah what he's saying is that cops should forget about everybody else's problems with crime, 'cause HIS personal problems with crime trump all our petty concerns. 'Cause after all, he's part of a corporation, and corporations are more important than anyone else.

No, he's simply stating that a more equitable balance should be struck. Ideally, the losses incurred because of theft via both a physical and electronic medium should be minimized. We are not currently in such a balanced state as online theft is resulting in the losses of hundreds of billions of dollars.

While I fully agree that copyright infringement is a serious offense, I can't justify requisitioning resources from other more important police duties to confront it.

I'm a pretty stringent anti-piracy person myself (and the recent erasing of all my programs due to my own *&(%& computer illiteracy has put that to the test, but I still haven't resorted to piracy to replace them), and I see his point on an economic scale knowing the people personally affected by it (not the champagne sipping yacht dwellers that the pirates like to imagine to make themselves feel like Robin Hood), but even on that I'd have to agree.

Regardless of over all cost, I'd prefer that law enforcement primarily focus on my personal safety. I don't think that they should ignore one in favor of the other, but if I had to put them in order, I'd go for personal safety without hesitation.

Why vote for the lesser of two evils?

'Cause Jack Aubrey said so.

"You should always choose the lesser of two weevils."

http://blog.erdener.org/archives/images/20060130-communism.jpg

Physical theft also puts lives at risk. Electronic theft does not. Therefore physical theft is clearly of much higher priority than electronic theft, regardless of how much is lost because of it.

Oh, electronic theft so puts lives at risk. Imagine if you downloaded Metalilca from a Shadow Government Cyborg Assassin, altering it's primary behavioral regulation system (Yes, Metallica is a primary part of this) and goes on a murderous rampage?

Oh, and I'm to remind you all that Shadow Government Cyborg Assassins don't exist anywhere but the minds of paranoid tinfoil-hat wearing hippie freaks.

Yeah...that's the ticket...tinfoil...

http://boards1.wizards.com/images/smilies/shifty.gif

Why vote for the lesser of two evils?

Exactly!

That's not what he said; he never claimed that individuals pirates were "worse" than burglars, but rather that piracy exacts a greater toll on society than does common theft. Did you read his statement?


Which is really so much bullshit you could build an island in the Marianna's Trench out of it and live on it.

No, he's simply stating that a more equitable balance should be struck. Ideally, the losses incurred because of theft via both a physical and electronic medium should be minimized. We are not currently in such a balanced state as online theft is resulting in the losses of hundreds of billions of dollars.

Maybe if they didn't over-value their media, people would be more sympathetic to their *sniff* terrible plight?

Whilst it is true, piracy does cost the country exponentially more money than burglary etc. y'know what costs even more? Corporate crime.

Strangely enough, there is no clamour for action from the business sector or government.

Whilst it is true, piracy does cost the country exponentially more money than burglary etc. y'know what costs even more? Corporate crime.

Strangely enough, there is no clamour for action from the business sector or government.

'Cause that would hurt profits, silly.

Do you have any reliable statistics on the monetary toll corporate crime exacts on society. And, for the record, what doesn't conform to certain people's delusional communist ideals isn't automatically a "crime"; I am referring to cut-and-dried legal transgressions here.

How much did Enron end up costing people, again?

Whilst it is true, piracy does cost the country exponentially more money than burglary etc. y'know what costs even more? Corporate crime.

Strangely enough, there is no clamour for action from the business sector or government.

Do you have any reliable statistics on the monetary toll corporate crime exacts on society. And, for the record, what doesn't conform to certain people's delusional communist ideals isn't automatically a "crime"; I am referring to cut-and-dried legal transgressions here.

Do you have any reliable statistics on the monetary toll corporate crime exacts on society. And, for the record, what doesn't conform to certain people's delusional communist ideals isn't automatically a "crime"; I am referring to cut-and-dried legal transgressions here.

You say 'communist' like it's a bad thing, o dweller-in-the-belly-of-the-Great-Satan.

Do you have any reliable statistics on the monetary toll corporate crime exacts on society. And, for the record, what doesn't conform to certain people's delusional communist ideals isn't automatically a "crime"; I am referring to cut-and-dried legal transgressions here.

Enron?

You say 'communist' like it's a bad thing, o dweller-in-the-belly-of-the-Great-Satan.

Communism is an ideology which advocates the overthrow of corporations; thus, it clearly has a bias against such entities. I am purely concerned with facts, not socialist-leaning opinions.

Communism is an ideology which advocates the overthrow of corporations; thus, it clearly has a bias against such entities. I am purely concerned with facts, not socialist-leaning opinions.

Your ignorant of the fact of the inevitable socialization of the internet, the internet is impossible to regulate and the rise of sharing software such as torrents that are geared towards product software consumption and not profit indicates a new era of free socialism on the internet, mainly because software is 'liquid capital' and not like hardware, and that the internet is unlimited in scope.

You know what? Screw Cthulhu. Rick Cotton '08!

Is your name John Kerry? Cuz you sure flip-flop like the best of 'em! :D

There are certain methods by which the internet can be regulated. For example, the government may mandate that all operating systems must meet certain specifications that allow the state to monitor the downloading and uploading activity of the individuals who use that particular machine. Thus, piracy would be more easily detectable.



Given that pirated software is completely devoid of market value, I fail to see how it can be deemed to be "capital."


You make me sad.

Your ignorant of the fact of the inevitable socialization of the internet, the internet is impossible to regulate and the rise of sharing software such as torrents that are geared towards product software consumption and not profit indicates a new era of free socialism on the internet

There are certain methods by which the internet can be regulated. For example, the government may mandate that all operating systems must meet certain specifications that allow the state to monitor the downloading and uploading activity of the individuals who use that particular machine. Thus, piracy would be more easily detectable.

software is 'liquid capital' and not like hardware, and that the internet is unlimited in scope.

Given that pirated software is completely devoid of market value, I fail to see how it can be deemed to be "capital."

Yes, that's right. Downloading Iron Maiden makes you worse than a burglar.

I have an idea. Have someone mug him, beat him to an inch of his life, ransack his house for valuables and make a copy of some music from there by a different person.

See who he makes the police go after. Throw his statements back at him.

Yay! Isn't authoritarianism just the best, kids?

Microsoft's doing it already. Vista, much?

There are certain methods by which the internet can be regulated. For example, the government may mandate that all operating systems must meet certain specifications that allow the state to monitor the downloading and uploading activity of the individuals who use that particular machine. Thus, piracy would be more easily detectable.

Yay! Isn't authoritarianism just the best, kids?

Do you have any reliable statistics on the monetary toll corporate crime exacts on society. And, for the record, what doesn't conform to certain people's delusional communist ideals isn't automatically a "crime"; I am referring to cut-and-dried legal transgressions here.

Unfortunately, firm statistics can't be collected because the FBI doesn't keep a database through it's Uniform Crime Reporting System, like it does with street crimes. However, whilst burglary and robbery cost society $3.8 million a year, $14 per person, corprate crime is estimated to cost society between $200-500 billion a year ($700-1,800 per person).

No, not at all - actually.

>_>
<_<
OH GOD BLACK HELICOPTERS

Yay! Isn't authoritarianism just the best, kids?

I simply stated that such an arrangement was possible, thus debunking the previous poster's claim. I never said that I advocate such a system (nor did I say that I do not).

WTF is with the timewarping in this thread and why is it only happening to me?
FUCKING GOVERNMENT MONITORING MY BRAINWAVES.
(Wraps his computer in tinfoil)

Microsoft's doing it already. Vista, much?

No, not at all - actually.

Seriously, what the hell, this isnt even time warping now, its just randomly placing my posts in the topic >_>

I simply stated that such an arrangement was possible, thus debunking the previous poster's claim. I never said that I advocate such a system (nor did I say that I do not).

So then come down off your lofty perch. That fence is wobbling under your not-insignificant weight.

Regulate MY internets? lol

Seriously, what the hell, this isnt even time warping now, its just randomly placing my posts in the topic >_>

Ahh... I think I can follow along, Dontgonearthere. But it's not easy.

'Cause that would hurt profits, silly.

Oh, that word in your signature? When you google it, you only get 113 results and the top five are from Jolt. I have my doubts on whether or not is a legitimate word.

And yes, criminal corporations do not want prosecutions for corporate crimes. What else is new?

Ahh... I think I can follow along, Dontgonearthere. But it's not easy.

Jolt hates me :(

Oh, that word in your signature? When you google it, you only get 113 results and the top five are from Jolt. I have my doubts on whether or not is a legitimate word.

And yes, criminal corporations do not want prosecutions for corporate crimes. What else is new?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lopado...pterygon

Wow, it's not warpage so much as discontinuity tonight.

Jolt hates me :(



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lopado...pterygon

Aha! I tried looking for it in wikipedia, but it gave me no results.

Wow, it's not warpage so much as discontinuity tonight.
Quite.
The multiquote is acting up as well. It takes me to the reply page so's I have to go back and click it again.

Summary:
Jolt is being stupid. Again.

Aha! I tried looking for it in wikipedia, but it gave me no results.

Theres an accent over the last o which I didnt copy for some reason. Wiki is picky about that sort of thing sometimes.

That's not what he said; he never claimed that individuals pirates were "worse" than burglars, but rather that piracy exacts a greater toll on society than does common theft. Did you read his statement?

"Our law enforcement resources are seriously misaligned," Cotton said. "If you add up all the various kinds of property crimes in this country, everything from theft, to fraud, to burglary, bank-robbing, all of it, it costs the country $16 billion a year. But intellectual property crime runs to hundreds of billions [of dollars] a year."

Piracy is a fucking joke when the government is stealing from its own people.

Case and point: The Sponsorship Scandal (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/groupaction/)

How is a nation to obey laws when its own government embezzles and steals? This is worse than piracy.

So two wrongs make a right?

I'm saying there are worse things. And you can't ignore the big things in favour of the little things when the big things affect a greater swath of the general populace as a whole. So, music piracy is less of a threat to the overall well being of a nation than government corruption and embezzlement. Or corporate crime...

Piracy is a fucking joke when the government is stealing from its own people.

So two wrongs make a right?

...corporate crime is estimated to cost society between $200-500 billion a year ($700-1,800 per person).

Again, do you have a source for this?

Ive always favored an NEA-like system where musicians and artists of all types are supported by taxes and all of their work is publically available for free. To discourage people from pretending to be artists just to get free tax money, though, the income would be rather low, and the artists would not be allowed to have any other source of income. Good idea?

Again, do you have a source for this?

I can only give estimates from various watchdogs, not concrete statistics, unfortunately. The government doesn't compile data on corporate crime like other offenses. It's very hard to get a completely accurate picture. Any source I give you will be dismissed by you as a leftist group or some such.

I wouldn't bother replying to him anymore - seeing as he can't be bothered to come down off his fence and all.

Fence? F.A.G.s been so deep off to one side that he's practically a black hole.

I can only give estimates from various watchdogs, not concrete statistics, unfortunately. The government doesn't compile data on corporate crime like other offenses. It's very hard to get a completely accurate picture. Any source I give you will be dismissed by you as a leftist group or some such.

I wouldn't bother replying to him anymore - seeing as he can't be bothered to come down off his fence and all.

Fence?
Fence.
There are certain methods by which the internet can be regulated. For example, the government may mandate that all operating systems must meet certain specifications that allow the state to monitor the downloading and uploading activity of the individuals who use that particular machine. Thus, piracy would be more easily detectable.

I simply stated that such an arrangement was possible, thus debunking the previous poster's claim. I never said that I advocate such a system (nor did I say that I do not).

The problem is people are being accused of physically stealing ideas.

The problem is people are being accused of physically stealing ideas.

It'll be an interesting day for philosophy when somebody brings that up in court, ya?

No, but two rights make a left.

Which is why we should put Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly together in the same room, to create a liberal god.

Two rights makes a back or U-Turn...you need three rights to make a left.

So two wrongs make a right?

No, but two rights make a left.

Which is why we should put Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly together in the same room, to create a liberal god.

Two rights makes a back or U-Turn...you need three rights to make a left.

Allow me to offer my rebuttal:

Your feminine parental unit.

Yes, that's right. Downloading Iron Maiden makes you worse than a burglar.

It does, Iron maiden are ULTIMATE and buying CDs says, GODDAMNIT COME TO HK ALREADY...

I have freinds who moved off to several different places, and all of them have seen maiden, anger... jealousy... sniper... hired... kill... people... die... boom...

I can only give estimates from various watchdogs

Right, so can you please provide a link to the estimates rendered by those watchdogs?

Right, so can you please provide a link to the estimates rendered by those watchdogs?

And will you come down off the fence and state for the record whether you're in favour of governmental authoritarianism in the name of corporate gain?

Pretty dick of a statement, but still doesn't come close to topping Ingrid Newkirk's "The Holocaust was nothing compared to what chickens suffer through every day at the farms" crock of shit.

Maybe if they didn't over-value their media, people would be more sympathetic to their *sniff* terrible plight?

I'd argue that they don't overcharge.

It'll be an interesting day for philosophy when somebody brings that up in court, ya?

Ah, but that an idea can indeed be stolen is pretty set and clear precedent. Trademarks, Patents and Copyrights are all designed to protect against the theft of ideas, and you'll find that there is a long history of these protections.

I'd argue that they don't overcharge.

I payed 19 bucks for Slayer's Seasons in the Abyss.

I think they might overcharge a bit.

Ah, but that an idea can indeed be stolen is pretty set and clear precedent. Trademarks, Patents and Copyrights are all designed to protect against the theft of ideas, and you'll find that there is a long history of these protections.

But the concept of PHYSICALLY stealing an idea...thats a new one. Kinda like saying stealing a relic from some church is stealing God. Or something.
Phew, that could open a whole new chapter in the lovely Religious People vs. Non-Religious People battle.

It would be more legitimate if he meant IP theft in general; that is a very serious problem that goes far beyond pocket-change problems like illegal music downloading. Those kinds of things, which not only harm the economies of the developing world but also provide a source of funds for organized crime and smuggling rings are the real problem.

It's not the kid illegally downloading a TV show or song that's the problem, it's the smuggler in China, Russia or Nigeria producing thousands of knockoff DVDs, jewelry, clothing, prescription drugs, toys, and literally anything and everything else that is the problem.

I am purely concerned with facts, not socialist-leaning opinions.

The difference between you and the socialists is that they tend to have facts and you don't.

There are certain methods by which the internet can be regulated. For example, the government may mandate that all operating systems must meet certain specifications that allow the state to monitor the downloading and uploading activity of the individuals who use that particular machine. Thus, piracy would be more easily detectable.

I don't like your idea of 'regulation'.

You could have state observation of internet activity merely to observe who is downloading what then according reward the people who made it..

WTF is with the timewarping in this thread and why is it only happening to me?
FUCKING GOVERNMENT MONITORING MY BRAINWAVES.
(Wraps his computer in tinfoil)

Why would you wrap your computer in tinfoil if the g'ment is monitoring your brainwaves?

Two rights makes a back or U-Turn...you need three rights to make a left.

Or a left and three rights makes a hook turn ;) .

If we're going to talk about the cost of various corporate crimes, I have a good example.

Who here is familiar with Conrad Black and Hollinger Int'l? He was charged in the US with defrauding Hollinger of $60M. There, a direct case of corporate theft and crime, just as FaG asked for.

Black 'lied to cover $60m theft' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6765697.stm)

I also cited the Sponsorship Scandal the saw the redirection of Canadian tax payer dollars to GroupAction and other ad agencies in QC, both of which are significantly more in overall costs than piracy.

Piracy can be combated through other means other than the RIAA, such as lowering prices and taking off any form of copy protection. If they didn't assume that everyone was a criminal, there would be fewer hassles. If they insist on treating the general public like criminals, then we might as well act like it.

They won't give us the benefit of the doubt and they'll try and nickel and dime us, so we'll return the favour to them.

http://www.citizenworks.org/issues/democracy/demo-issuepapers-corp-crime.php

Every year, the FBI issues its report Crime in the United States, which documents murder, robbery, assault, burglary and other street crimes. The report ignores corporate and white-collar crimes such as life-taking pollution, procurement fraud, financial fraud, public corruption and occupational homicide.

The FBI does not issue a yearly Corporate Crime in the United States report, despite strong evidence that corporate crime and violence inflict far more damage on society than all street crime combined.

The FBI estimates that burglary and robbery costs the nation $3.8 billion a year. Compare this to the hundreds of billions of dollars stolen from Americans via systemic and episodic corporate and white-collar fraud. Health-care fraud alone costs Americans $100 billion to $400 billion a year. The savings and loan fraud - which former Attorney General Dick Thornburgh called "the biggest white collar swindle in history" - will cost us anywhere from $300 billion to $500 billion. There is also $40 billion a year in auto repair fraud, at least $15 billion a year in securities fraud, and a host of lesser frauds that cost consumers tens of billions a year.

And corporate crime is often violent crime. The FBI estimates that 19,000 Americans are murdered every year. Compare this to the 56,000 Americans who die every year on the job or from occupational diseases such as black lung and asbestosis. On-the-job deaths often result from criminal recklessness. They are sometimes prosecuted as homicides or as criminal violations of federal workplace safety laws. And environmental crimes often result in death, disease and injury. In recent examples of corporate violence twelve New Mexico campers were killed in August 2000 when a natural gas pipeline operated by El Paso Natural Gas Co. broke and exploded near Carlsbad, NM, and more than 100 Americans have died in crashes linked to Firestone tire separations that caused their Ford Explorer vehicles to crash. And Dr. Troyen Brennan, a leader of the Harvard University Medical Malpractice Study of New York State, has estimated that there are 100,000 deaths each year from hospital-based medical negligence.

Or a left and three rights makes a hook turn ;) .

The RIAA hates those things.

You know...because hooks...pirates...Okay, it wasn't a very good joke.