NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/06/18/afghan.airstrike/index.html
(CNN) -- Seven children were killed in an airstrike by the U.S.-led coalition on a compound in eastern Afghanistan where al Qaeda fighters were believed to be gathered on Sunday, according to a U.S. military statement.

Several militants were also killed and two were detained, according to the military.

A U.S. military spokesman said there was no sign of children around the targeted building before the airstrike was ordered.

"We had surveillance on the compound all day and saw no indications there were children inside the building," said Army Maj. Chris Belcher, spokesman for the Coalition.

The military said other children who survived said that they were forced to stay inside the building throughout the day.

"Credible intelligence named the compound, which contained a mosque and a madrassa, as a suspected safehouse for al Qaeda fighters," the statement said. "Coalition forces confirmed the presence of nefarious activity occurring at the site before getting approval to conduct an airstrike on the location."

The military said that residents later confirmed that al Qaeda fighters had been present in the compound in Paktika province's Zarghun Shahr district all day Sunday.

"This is another example of al Qaeda using the protective status of a mosque, as well as innocent civilians, to shield themselves," Maj. Belcher said. "We are saddened by the innocent lives that were lost as a result of militants' cowardice."

The military said the mosque suffered only minor damage.

Well, I'm not shocked that this happened, to be honest. We've been pulling shit like this constantly since we first started the war in Afghanistan. They simply didn't bother to fully verify their intelligence, once again. Every single damned time one of these airstrikes is ordered it takes out children instead of terrorists.

Which makes me wonder something...is it that our intelligence is just that bad, or are the supposed terrorists finding out about these strikes ahead of time and moving in children to ensure they become martyrs?

We should paint all children neon pink so they're easier to spot. *nod*

We should paint all children neon pink so they're easier to spot. *nod*

...I'm sure many other parents would agree with you.

But what is your perspective on this, in all honesty? As a former military officer you ought to know more than I would about military intelligence.

...I'm sure many other parents would agree with you.

But what is your perspective on this, in all honesty? As a former military officer you ought to know more than I would about military intelligence.

I think that it's an unavoidable effect of war. Bombs, rockets and bullets are indiscriminate killers and in the hands of human beings(whose defining characteristic is their tendency to fuck up), the innocent suffer at least as much as the guilty. If not more so.

It's one of my biggest gripes about war and killing; not so much that people suffer or die, but the people who seem to suffer or die the most are people who really don't deserve to. But what's the solution?

The way I see it, you can either chalk this up to 'war is hell', or take offense at this horrible act and rage against the wagers of war before realizing that there are two sides to every conflict and you are helpless to change human nature. Either way, we're fucked. SO do what I do; count your blessings that they weren't our children, hope people smarten up eventually, have a few tacos and say, "That really sucks."

*nod*

SO do what I do; count your blessings that they weren't our children, hope people smarten up eventually, have a few tacos and say, "That really sucks."

*nod*
...

Sage advice, certainly. I'll take it into consideration.

Because even Dubya knows:

Tacos rule.

If these had been children in the USA we'd never hear the end of it, because those are worth more... while Aghanistani children's lives are apparently only worth a couple of guilt-denying tacos and an empty, mendacious "that really sucks".

I don't think that they really care that they are 'accidentally' killing children, all the wars in the past have been about one thing and one thing only, population control. We have way to many people in this world and the only way to get those numbers down without killing everyone in the world is to have wars.

If these had been children in the USA we'd never hear the end of it, because those are worth more...

It's like Family Guy said...the media in the U.S. only really cares about the lost little white girls. Everyone else gets a brief mention, if that.

It's like Family Guy said...the media in the U.S. only really cares about the lost little white girls. Everyone else gets a brief mention, if that.

Imagine if the USA's children should experience the same sort of suffering that other nations' children suffer at the hands of the USA's war machine! Maybe that would make them understand how shitty it is to start wars all the time?

It's not going to happen, of course, not because the USA will come to its senses, but because they enjoy impunity. Sure, small retributions in the form of a terrorist attack here or there might perturb their sleep once in a blue moon, but the nightmares they cause they will remain ignorant of. *sigh*

Imagine if the USA's children should experience the same sort of suffering that other nations' children suffer at the hands of the USA's war machine! Maybe that would make them understand how shitty it is to start wars all the time?
It certainly would. You'd be surprised...or maybe you wouldn't be...at how many war-happy kids there were in whatever school I attended, be it in Ohio, California, or Colorado...though of course I did end up in typically Republican areas, so that might have something to do with it...

It's not going to happen, of course, not because the USA will come to its senses, but because they enjoy impunity. Sure, small retributions in the form of a terrorist attack here or there might perturb their sleep once in a blue moon, but the nightmares they cause they will remain ignorant of. *sigh*

Oh, I wouldn't say that. We'll get what's coming to us, sooner or later, probably sooner. I can see several different possibilities for how it would come about, though unfortunately most of those would result in a world far worse than the one we've got.

And remember this: even though our foreign policies are barbaric, at least we're not as bad as we could be. Imagine if the Soviet Union were in our place, or Nazi Germany, or Communist China. A small grace, certainly, and definitely not one that helps in the long run, but it's something, at least, and it gives me comfort enough to sleep at night.

And remember this: even though our foreign policies are barbaric, at least we're not as bad as we could be.

Oh, give it time. You're making great strides in that direction. Soon you'll only be a plague to their cholera.

it gives me comfort enough to sleep at night.

As long your pillow is soft, you can remain complacent.

If these had been children in the USA we'd never hear the end of it, because those are worth more... while Aghanistani children's lives are apparently only worth a couple of guilt-denying tacos and an empty, mendacious "that really sucks".

If they're close enough where a heroic snatch and dive could save their lives, or where the letters I have written to my congressmen made any difference in America's foreign policy, then they are worth considerably more than a coulple tacos and an empty mendacious "that really sucks". Until then, I do what I know helps me get through the day.

Perhaps when you set a better example by traveling to the Washington D.C., dousing yourself in kerosene and lighting yourself on fire in protest of warmongering policies it will inspire me to take more active measures. Until then, tacos it is. *nod*

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/06/18/afghan.airstrike/index.html


Well, I'm not shocked that this happened, to be honest. We've been pulling shit like this constantly since we first started the war in Afghanistan. They simply didn't bother to fully verify their intelligence, once again. Every single damned time one of these airstrikes is ordered it takes out children instead of terrorists.

Which makes me wonder something...is it that our intelligence is just that bad, or are the supposed terrorists finding out about these strikes ahead of time and moving in children to ensure they become martyrs?
Did you read through the whole story?


Several militants were also killed and two were detained, according to the military.

"We had surveillance on the compound all day and saw no indications there were children inside the building," said Army Maj. Chris Belcher, spokesman for the Coalition.

The military said other children who survived said that they were forced to stay inside the building throughout the day.

"Coalition forces confirmed the presence of nefarious activity occurring at the site before getting approval to conduct an airstrike on the location."

The military said that residents later confirmed that al Qaeda fighters had been present in the compound in Paktika province's Zarghun Shahr district all day Sunday.

"This is another example of al Qaeda using the protective status of a mosque, as well as innocent civilians, to shield themselves," Maj. Belcher said. "We are saddened by the innocent lives that were lost as a result of militants' cowardice."

Oh, give it time. You're making great strides in that direction. Soon you'll only be a plague to their cholera.

We are still better than you give us credit for, though not much better.


As long your pillow is soft, you can remain complacent.
I never said I never cared what they're doing...I just can't do anything about it, not from my current position.

I do, however, intend upon doing something about it when I am able to affect policy, believe me.

If they're close enough where a heroic snatch and dive could save their lives, or where the letters I have written to my congressmen made any difference in America's foreign policy, then they are worth considerably more than a coulple tacos and an empty mendacious "that really sucks". Until then, I do what I know helps me get through the day.

Perhaps when you set a better example by traveling to the Washington D.C., dousing yourself in kerosene and lighting yourself on fire in protest of warmongering policies it will inspire me to take more active measures. Until then, tacos it is. *nod*

You have to understand Fass' position. He's looking at us from his position in Sweden where we're basically war-mongering fools, and we're easily the worst of the bunch, mainly because we should be far better than we are due to our ideals and philosophies upon which our country is based and yet we do not. Thus, by betraying our own ideals, we're basically horrible.

Did you read through the whole story?

Yes. Yes I did. As I said, their intelligence failed.

Until then, tacos it is. *nod*

Now if all you taco-eaters could get your act together, I'm sure you could do a lot more than eat tacos.

Why not form a new political party. It won't be libertainian, Democratic or Republican. It will be Clownicratican. Your motto would be "In Clowns we laugh"

YOU, will be the presidential nominee.

EDIT: Or keeping in the Taco line. The Taconism party.

You have to understand Fass' position. He's looking at us from his position in Sweden where we're basically war-mongering fools, and we're easily the worst of the bunch, mainly because we should be far better than we are due to our ideals and philosophies upon which our country is based and yet we do not. Thus, by betraying our own ideals, we're basically horrible.

Actually, I understand his position quite well. Nor would I argue it. But that, his acidic barbs and righteous indignation will amount to exactly the same thing as my delicious tacos will: Nothing.

Except that I'll have tacos. :)

Now if all you taco-eaters could get your act together, I'm sure you could do a lot more than eat tacos.

Why not form a new political party. It won't be libertainian, Democratic or Republican. It will be Clownicratican. Your motto would be "In Clowns we laugh"

YOU, will be the presidential nominee.

I have considered a life in politics many times. Then I remember those damn photos on the internet. :(

I have considered a life in politics many times. Then I remember those damn photos on the internet. :(

If you promise to make a serious go at it, I'll see what I can do about it.

Or why not simply turn it into political ammunition? Do not hide the sordidness, revel in it. A clown that will make the people laugh and chase their worries away. Promise good times and free beer. Vow that death sentences will be replaced by "tickled to death sentences". The people will lap it up.

Imagine if the USA's children should experience the same sort of suffering that other nations' children suffer at the hands of the USA's war machine!

Well they'd have to be "White", and in a swing-vote state. If that were the case the whining would never stop.

Actually, I understand his position quite well. Nor would I argue it. But that, his acidic barbs and righteous indignation will amount to exactly the same thing as my delicious tacos will: Nothing.

Except that I'll have tacos. :)
...

Aye, aye, fair enough.

I have considered a life in politics many times. Then I remember those damn photos on the internet. :(

You really should. I think you'd be good at it, and we could use a decent politician.

Just a hint:

People die in war
Not all of these people are combatants. This is unfortunate, but it is, sadly, unavoidable, particularly when the combatants use civilian shields or are, indeed, hardly distinguishable from civilians

So, let me see...

Military Intelligence suggests the presence of targets in the area.
Military Intelligence blunders a little, missing the fact that children are also in the area
Presence of abovementioned targets is confirmed
Children happen to be hit, too.
Military apologises.

How horrible. Yes, we should all condem the US Air Force for engaging in such horrible acts of brutality (Namely, trying to hit enemy combatants) and apologising for its blunders.

Those bastards.

Maybe it's just me, but the Taliban remnants (Well, not really remnants anymore)/ Al Quaeda beheading journalists and aid workers, suicide bombing everything in range, executing teachers for daring to educate girls, stoning gays, and genociding (In the case of Afghanistan, and largely before the US invasion) non-Pashtun ethnicities strikes me as just a little worse that that.

But that's probably the evil thoughts of a terrible fascist hellbent on removing human rights in their entirety and believing that all muslims should be either dead or christened.

They simply didn't bother to fully verify their intelligence, once again. Every single damned time one of these airstrikes is ordered it takes out children instead of terrorists.Could it be because the targets in question are actually insanely mobile, and you either have to strike quickly, or not at all?

For that matter, if every airstrike hit children, I doubt there would be any left in Afghanistan...

Which makes me wonder something...is it that our intelligence is just that bad, or are the supposed terrorists finding out about these strikes ahead of time and moving in children to ensure they become martyrs?Neither? The terrorists - when we're talking about an organisation that's doing the abovementioned things {Maybe it's just me, but the Taliban remnants (Well, not really remnants anymore)/ Al Quaeda beheading journalists and aid workers, suicide bombing everything in range, executing teachers for daring to educate girls, stoning gays, and genociding (In the case of Afghanistan, and largely before the US invasion) non-Pashtun ethnicities strikes me as just a little worse that that.}, I think we can safely drop the 'Supposedly' - are recruited from the religious schools, which, you know... 'Educate' children. Naturally, these schools also serve as temporary bases - the children just happen to be there because that's where they're indoctrin- erm, educated.

Quite similar to how the universities were the root of the German resistance movement during the Napoleonic wars, or eventually produced the Red Army Faction, really.

You have to understand Fass' position. He's looking at us from his position in Sweden where we're basically war-mongering fools, and we're easily the worst of the bunchHardly.

Maybe I'm odd like that, but actively trying to avoid civilian - hell, even military, considering the initial invasion of Iraq - causalties and apologizing when they happen, anyway (Eventually unavoidable, after all) doesn't strike me as being as bad as, lets say, stoning gays and prostitutes, ensuring near-illiteracy in females, killing random 'They're not us!' ethnicities and the likes.

I do certainly have my issues with the way the US is trying to get things 'Right' (Because, well, everything the Bush administration has tried has been a near-total failure), but most certainly not with actually trying to do so.

And honestly. The reality denial of the people who think that the US are 'The worst of the bunch' is just sad. I do have issues with the kind of 'Patriot' who goes 'Right or wrong, my country!', of which the US seem to have a disproportionally large number - but the opposite is just as bad, really.

And when it comes to the point where people happily accuse every single US soldier serving in Iraq of being a rapist and murderer (Due to that one case where such happened), and quite openly state that they have zero compassion - indeed, are quite happy to see these soldiers die - for them, well...

They can, quite frankly, take the so-called liberal ideals they claim to believe in and throw them in the next trashcan, and admit that they're just a bunch of anti-american (That sounds so much better than 'Racist', don't you think? You can quite easily be in favour of eliminating militant muslim movements and be a racist, but be anti-american - and you're a hero of the intellectual elite!) fucknuts who spout exactly the same bullshit lets say, a Pat Robertson spouts. Only the target is different.

Of course, these people even lack the honesty to admit that, and prefer to cover themselves in a mantle of 'Leftism'. Not exactly a respectable course of action, but what can you do?

We should paint all children neon pink so they're easier to spot. *nod*
Two birds w/one stone - target practice w/paintball guns!

Just a hint:

People die in war
Not all of these people are combatants. This is unfortunate, but it is, sadly, unavoidable, particularly when the combatants use civilian shields or are, indeed, hardly distinguishable from civilians

So, let me see...

Military Intelligence suggests the presence of targets in the area.
Military Intelligence blunders a little, missing the fact that children are also in the area
Presence of abovementioned targets is confirmed
Children happen to be hit, too.
Military apologises.

How horrible. Yes, we should all condem the US Air Force for engaging in such horrible acts of brutality (Namely, trying to hit enemy combatants) and apologising for its blunders.

Those bastards.

Maybe it's just me, but the Taliban remnants (Well, not really remnants anymore)/ Al Quaeda beheading journalists and aid workers, suicide bombing everything in range, executing teachers for daring to educate girls, stoning gays, and genociding (In the case of Afghanistan, and largely before the US invasion) non-Pashtun ethnicities strikes me as just a little worse that that.

But that's probably the evil thoughts of a terrible fascist hellbent on removing human rights in their entirety and believing that all muslims should be either dead or christened.

Could it be because the targets in question are actually insanely mobile, and you either have to strike quickly, or not at all?

For that matter, if every airstrike hit children, I doubt there would be any left in Afghanistan...

Neither? The terrorists - when we're talking about an organisation that's doing the abovementioned things {Maybe it's just me, but the Taliban remnants (Well, not really remnants anymore)/ Al Quaeda beheading journalists and aid workers, suicide bombing everything in range, executing teachers for daring to educate girls, stoning gays, and genociding (In the case of Afghanistan, and largely before the US invasion) non-Pashtun ethnicities strikes me as just a little worse that that.}, I think we can safely drop the 'Supposedly' - are recruited from the religious schools, which, you know... 'Educate' children. Naturally, these schools also serve as temporary bases - the children just happen to be there because that's where they're indoctrin- erm, educated.

Quite similar to how the universities were the root of the German resistance movement during the Napoleonic wars, or eventually produced the Red Army Faction, really.

Hardly.

Maybe I'm odd like that, but actively trying to avoid civilian - hell, even military, considering the initial invasion of Iraq - causalties and apologizing when they happen, anyway (Eventually unavoidable, after all) doesn't strike me as being as bad as, lets say, stoning gays and prostitutes, ensuring near-illiteracy in females, killing random 'They're not us!' ethnicities and the likes.

I do certainly have my issues with the way the US is trying to get things 'Right' (Because, well, everything the Bush administration has tried has been a near-total failure), but most certainly not with actually trying to do so.

And honestly. The reality denial of the people who think that the US are 'The worst of the bunch' is just sad. I do have issues with the kind of 'Patriot' who goes 'Right or wrong, my country!', of which the US seem to have a disproportionally large number - but the opposite is just as bad, really.

And when it comes to the point where people happily accuse every single US soldier serving in Iraq of being a rapist and murderer (Due to that one case where such happened), and quite openly state that they have zero compassion - indeed, are quite happy to see these soldiers die - for them, well...

They can, quite frankly, take the so-called liberal ideals they claim to believe in and throw them in the next trashcan, and admit that they're just a bunch of anti-american (That sounds so much better than 'Racist', don't you think? You can quite easily be in favour of eliminating militant muslim movements and be a racist, but be anti-american - and you're a hero of the intellectual elite!) fucknuts who spout exactly the same bullshit lets say, a Pat Robertson spouts. Only the target is different.

Of course, these people even lack the honesty to admit that, and prefer to cover themselves in a mantle of 'Leftism'. Not exactly a respectable course of action, but what can you do?

Well said.

[/thread]

We've been pulling shit like this constantly since we first started the war in Afghanistan.

Hyperbole plz

They simply didn't bother to fully verify their intelligence, once again.

Your own article disagrees with you. It says they were observing the compound all day, and saw no evidence of children. Short of going inside the compound itself, which would be highly dangerous and most likely alert the terrorists to the fact that we knew where they were (and therefore signal them that this is a good time run away), I don't see how it would have been possible to "verify" further. I'd add that the intelligence on terrorist presence was obviously correct, per your article.

Every single damned time one of these airstrikes is ordered it takes out children instead of terrorists.

Massive hyperbole again. Very few of these airstrikes that are on the news involve child casualties, to say nothing of the day to day strikes that don't even make the news because, let's face it, day to day operations in a war aren't newsworthy. Also massive hyperbole in the case of this very incident. Children were not killed INSTEAD of terrorists, children were tragically killed IN ADDITION to terrorists. Terrorists were killed. Your own article says it.

Which makes me wonder something...is it that our intelligence is just that bad, or are the supposed terrorists finding out about these strikes ahead of time and moving in children to ensure they become martyrs?

Or maybe they are just keeping the children around for the propaganda value of people who just see children dead, and don't try to analyze the situation.

Yes, child deaths are tragic, but in this case it seems that intelligence actually did the best job they could. That is not always the case. I do remember a strike in, I think it was 2002, where locals gave unconfirmed intelligence saying that terrorists were meeting at a school, and in fact no terrorists where there, only children. That isn't the case here, as your article plainly points out.

It's nice to live in a world where you can just scream "children died, therefore the military is the only one possible to blame!" Thing is, that isn't the real world.

If these had been children in the USA we'd never hear the end of it, because those are worth more... while Aghanistani children's lives are apparently only worth a couple of guilt-denying tacos and an empty, mendacious "that really sucks".

Yeah, we care more about ourselves. So, what?

Everyone cares more about their own, is that a big surprise?

The reason that they hide behind children is that they expect a reaction like the OP's. If everybody understands that the terrorists are hiding behind children and baiting us into killing them, then they have no more incentive to do it.

heard on the news (not FOX) that the two surviving kids claimed to have been kidnapped and held in the compound as human sheilds.

can anyone confirm this?

heard on the news (not FOX) that the two surviving kids claimed to have been kidnapped and held in the compound as human sheilds.

can anyone confirm this?

It seems that they were students at a local Madrassa that was, incidentally, inside a larger compound that was being used as a base for a small insurgent group.

If these had been children in the USA we'd never hear the end of it, because those are worth more... while Aghanistani children's lives are apparently only worth a couple of guilt-denying tacos and an empty, mendacious "that really sucks".

Of Course...since when do governments in developed nations care about poor brown people...

It seems that they were students at a local Madrassa that was, incidentally, inside a larger compound that was being used as a base for a small insurgent group.

but the question is "where they held hostage there?"

but the question is "where they held hostage there?"

The kids said that they were kidnapped which is certainly not out of the ordinary. The reason that they hide behind children is that they expect a reaction like the OP's. If everybody understands that the terrorists are hiding behind children and baiting us into killing them, then they have no more incentive to do it.

The kids said that they were kidnapped which is certainly not out of the ordinary. The reason that they hide behind children is that they expect a reaction like the OP's. If everybody understands that the terrorists are hiding behind children and baiting us into killing them, then they have no more incentive to do it.

but that's not what they're seeing.

From my understanding of the situation, the terrorists kidnapped the children but did not announce that they had them. thus US forces did not know about any missing children that could be in the area.

The terrorists wanted CHILDREN BODIES so that the US can be blamed for their deaths. not as sheilds to hide behind but fuel to feed anti-americanism.

And reading the posts on this thread... it's working.

but that's not what they're seeing.

From my understanding of the situation, the terrorists kidnapped the children but did not announce that they had them. thus US forces did not know about any missing children that could be in the area.

The terrorists wanted CHILDREN BODIES so that the US can be blamed for their deaths. not as sheilds to hide behind but fuel to feed anti-americanism.

And reading the posts on this thread... it's working.

I could have chosen my words better, but that is my point.

I could have chosen my words better, but that is my point.

too early in the morning for me to be tactful.

These discussions are quite silly. Intelligence gathering is by its very nature pretty secretive stuff. The only way that anybody finds out about intelligence activity is when it is either declassified (a super dooperly slow process for obvious reasons) or when Intelligence services screw up. You rarely hear about the times when our Intelligence gets it right.

We all owe our heroic Intelligence folks a lot for their skill and sacrifice. They are truly the most unsung of all of our heroes because what they do is so secretive. Their families have to make sacrifices that no other public servants' families need to make.

Therefore, when we are talking about our Inteeligence agents it better be in "a hat off to you, sirs" respectful tone. No human enterprise is ever immune from mistake. Look at yourself before you cast stones. If any of you have ever served in an intel role, then you may judge others I guess but I doubt that you would if you did.

If you are so upset about Intelligence problems ask your government to provide them with more funds.

These discussions are quite silly. Intelligence gathering is by its very nature pretty secretive stuff. The only way that anybody finds out about intelligence activity is when it is either declassified (a super dooperly slow process for obvious reasons) or when Intelligence services screw up. You rarely hear about the times when our Intelligence gets it right.

We all owe our heroic Intelligence folks a lot for their skill and sacrifice. They are truly the most unsung of all of our heroes because what they do is so secretive. Their families have to make sacrifices that no other public servants' families need to make.

Therefore, when we are talking about our Inteeligence agents it better be in "a hat off to you, sirs" respectful tone. No human enterprise is ever immune from mistake. Look at yourself before you cast stones. If any of you have ever served in an intel role, then you may judge others I guess but I doubt that you would if you did.

If you are so upset about Intelligence problems ask your government to provide them with more funds.

You can go right ahead & feel indebted to a pack perennially-wrong asshats all you like, just don't go expecting anyone else to feel your bizarre sense of gratitude - and conversely, don't try taking the piss out of those of us who just aren't anywhere near as gullible a rube as you've just publicly professed to be.

More funds? Hah! That'd be like Mr. Anderson actually paying Beavis & Butthead for their pruning services when they cut his tree down and let it fall on his house.