NationStates Jolt Archive

Article (http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/inring.htm)

New intelligence reveals China is covertly supplying large quantities of small arms and weapons to insurgents in Iraq and the Taliban militia in Afghanistan, through Iran.

So, these are obviously large accusations that, hopefully, are well backed by on target intellegence. What are everyones thoughts on how this could affect how we handle both relations with Iran and, perhaps more importantly, with China.

Article (http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/inring.htm)



So, these are obviously large accusations that, hopefully, are well backed by on target intellegence. What are everyones thoughts on how this could affect how we handle both relations with Iran and, perhaps more importantly, with China.

I guess their following the lead of the US.

I guess their following the lead of the US.

That makes it ok then.....

That makes it ok then.....

Sure doesn't, but since when do governments care about morals over might=right.

Sure doesn't, but since when do governments care about morals over might=right.

You won.

Article (http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/inring.htm)



So, these are obviously large accusations that, hopefully, are well backed by on target intellegence. What are everyones thoughts on how this could affect how we handle both relations with Iran and, perhaps more importantly, with China.



Threaten China with a trade embargo. Chinese are driven by cash. Cut it in half and see what happens.

Considering the source of the article, I'm not going to dismiss it outright, but I am going to take it with a grain of salt.

Threaten China with a trade embargo.

Bwahahaha! Yeah, that'd happen...

Threaten China with a trade embargo. Chinese are driven by cash. Cut it in half and see what happens.

Sanctions on China, China would just replace US cheap import markets with more in Europe and elsewhere, the US would just hurt their own economy, you don't seem to understand how much China is in economic dominance over the US, your in deficit and they own billions in govt bonds, need I list more reasons?

I'm sure China is not selling the arms PURELY because they may be used against Americans

They manufacture arms, they sell arms - so do loads of other countries. Just because they are being used against you doesn't mean you should start shouting at China

What if the next car bomb in Iraq used a Chevvy?

'America supplies cars to insurgents'? I doubt that would be the headline

Those bastards! :mad:

Just for that, I'm going to swear profusely at my Moo Goo Gai Pan before eating it next time! :mad:

Those bastards! :mad:

Just for that, I'm going to swear profusely at my Moo Goo Gai Pan before eating it next time! :mad:

Is it a muddy one?

Is it a muddy one?

Moo Goo Gai Mud is not a dish I can recommend. Too gritty. *nod*

Threaten China with a trade embargo. Chinese are driven by cash. Cut it in half and see what happens.
We need to do that! We won't (:headbang:), but we need to!

We need to do that! We won't (:headbang:), but we need to!

You're joking, right?... Right?!

In a world where each country's economy has become so globalized, an US trade embargo on a country that supplies the US with so much raw and processed material would be economic suicide.

Furthermore, China can look for a new trading partner because it is a cheap source of materials and somewhat neutral on the geopolitical scale. Considering the already-fragile state of US affairs, we can't.

Article (http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/inring.htm)



So, these are obviously large accusations that, hopefully, are well backed by on target intellegence. What are everyones thoughts on how this could affect how we handle both relations with Iran and, perhaps more importantly, with China.

who is this "we" of whome you speak?

is america jelous of someone else getting in on its own self deceptive game?

=^^=
.../\...

Face it, China has gone SUPERPOWER! And there's nothing you can do about it.

And they have the money and resources to back it up too... unlike The Soviet Union.

China's turning into a capitalistic society. Why the complaints?

We should threaten to arm the Tibetans...that'll make 'em blink.

Article (http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/inring.htm)



So, these are obviously large accusations that, hopefully, are well backed by on target intellegence. What are everyones thoughts on how this could affect how we handle both relations with Iran and, perhaps more importantly, with China.

ha!

We should threaten to arm the Tibetans...that'll make 'em blink.

I don't reckon they will be too worried. Probably be an excuse to continue the Hanification of Tibet even sooner

China is cool. And they can just do what they want.

Threaten China with a trade embargo. Chinese are driven by cash. Cut it in half and see what happens.
Trade embargo? China? Excuse me while I go laugh myself half to death.
They are debating whether or not putting tariffs on Chinese goods would destroy the American economy. Put an embargo on China and they stop holding up America.

Any actions taken against China economically will result in them either partially or entirely dropping the American economy on its ass.
Any actions taken against China militarily, either in support of Tibet or Taiwan, will result in dropping the American economy and swift military action against both us and Taiwan (and Tibet if we help them).

Trade embargo? China? Excuse me while I go laugh myself half to death.
They are debating whether or not putting tariffs on Chinese goods would destroy the American economy. Put an embargo on China and they stop holding up America.Please put an embargo on China! :)

The US won't risk its economy even if China is supplying terrorists with a king's ransom in arsenal. Why? There is too much at stake. The US has taken many loans from China and if it embargos and sanctions China, China can call in those debts and massively fuck over the US, sending its economy into the tank, triggering a recession that will affecting the US greatly but also impacting other economies in the process.

The loss of imports isn't the problem, though it will drive up prices, making your trip to Wal*Mart more costly as the consumer will have to rely on products from other nations and those made in the US. Sure the ones from Malaysia will still be cheap but they lack the same labour force as China. India could pick up the slack, but it already handles all our IT needs. ;)

The US may huff and puff about this but I doubt we'll see react action. It won't threaten China the same way it threatens other nations. China is already getting away with trading with dubious African regimes and others, so why should this be treated any different?

China's turning into a capitalistic society. Why the complaints?

But still as oppressive as ever...

China's turning into a capitalistic society. Why the complaints?

Hardly free market when even the Coca Cola head office in Beijing has a man in a funny green and red military suit sitting behind the CEO desk, more like a fascist authoritarian state.

We should threaten to arm the Tibetans...that'll make 'em blink.

Monks with guns!?!

Hardly free market when even the Coca Cola head office in Beijing has a man in a funny green and red military suit sitting behind the CEO desk, more like a fascist authoritarian state.

Can you back this up please?

China is currently in the 1880's of America capitalist-wise, plenty of robber barons, plenty of corruption, plenty of collusion between state and business but MNCs are hardly being run by the Chinese army.

The CEO of Coca Cola China is not even Chinese if I recall correctly, I'll look it up now and apologise if wrong.

EDIT: Seems to be Paul Etchells, CEO and Chairman of Coca Cola China.

Can you back this up please?

China is currently in the 1880's of America capitalist-wise, plenty of robber barons, plenty of corruption, plenty of collusion between state and business but MNCs are hardly being run by the Chinese army.

The CEO of Coca Cola China is not even Chinese if I recall correctly, I'll look it up now and apologise if wrong.

I was being figurative, what I meant is that China is highly regulative and controls all companies that operate in China, and I am pretty sure all companies have a CCP official in charge, although the company runs based on raw capitalism, it is still controlled by the state, hold on a bit and I'll source, but it's not exactly rare information.

In a world where each country's economy has become so globalized, an US trade embargo on a country that supplies the US with so much raw and processed material would be economic suicide.True that.


Furthermore, China can look for a new trading partner because it is a cheap source of materials and somewhat neutral on the geopolitical scale. Considering the already-fragile state of US affairs, we can't.hmm.
To be fair, It would also hurt China a bit.

Please put an embargo on China! :)WUAHAHAHAHA....

aww man.

Trade embargo? China? Excuse me while I go laugh myself half to death.
They are debating whether or not putting tariffs on Chinese goods would destroy the American economy. Put an embargo on China and they stop holding up America.

Any actions taken against China economically will result in them either partially or entirely dropping the American economy on its ass.
Any actions taken against China militarily, either in support of Tibet or Taiwan, will result in dropping the American economy and swift military action against both us and Taiwan (and Tibet if we help them).

If we directly aid Tibet militarily, I might see it playing out that way...but the Chinese are more subtle than that. Even if we started discreetly sending arms to Tibet, I doubt they'd raise an eyelash.

The Chinese regime isn't exactly in a position to start a war, or deal with an embargo from one of it's largest trade partners. Even if they could hurt the U.S. through such actions, it would only lead to destabilaztion of their own nation.

They'll wait untill all the cards are dealt before they decide if we're bluffing...that time is still a long way off.

EDIT: Oh...the U.S. also has a fairly big naval/air force sitting right next to the refineries China gets most of their oil from. If the U.S really wanted to, those tankers could be made to take their contents elsewhere.

hmm.
To be fair, It would also hurt China a bit.
No it wouldn't. Not realistically.

The Chinese regime isn't exactly in a position to start a war, or deal with an embargo from one of it's largest trade partners.
First part, correct. Second part, wrong. China is holding up the US economy pretty much single-handedly. They are currently artificially keeping their currency undervalued which is hurting trading for American companies, but we can't do shit about it. Any pressure put on Chinese exports will cause them to stop pinning up our economy by buying bonds or whatever it is and tariff our imports, probably more. China could easily ruin the US and drop the world's economy off a cliff if the US decides to fuck with them economically.

However, China will be able to assert military dominance within a few decades and by then, it will be too late to do shit if we havn't already done something.

The US won't risk its economy even if China is supplying terrorists with a king's ransom in arsenal. Why? There is too much at stake. The US has taken many loans from China and if it embargos and sanctions China, China can call in those debts and massively fuck over the US, sending its economy into the tank, triggering a recession that will affecting the US greatly but also impacting other economies in the process.

The loss of imports isn't the problem, though it will drive up prices, making your trip to Wal*Mart more costly as the consumer will have to rely on products from other nations and those made in the US. Sure the ones from Malaysia will still be cheap but they lack the same labour force as China. India could pick up the slack, but it already handles all our IT needs. ;)

The US may huff and puff about this but I doubt we'll see react action. It won't threaten China the same way it threatens other nations. China is already getting away with trading with dubious African regimes and others, so why should this be treated any different?



Yes, we owe a lot of money to China, but hey, part of the reason we fought the revolution was so we wouldn't have to pay back loans to people in Britain, right? ;) I say screw the loans, tell China to sit down and act like a good little country or pimp slap them on their ass (with missiles, of course). China has no chance of militarily hurting the states, except for the forces in South Korea. The Chinese could not get to the mainland USA, but we can invade them, though I don't see how we could, or would. A prolonged 3-5 year bombing of every major city, etc would see China in ruins. China supplies lots of shit to the USA, but its all shit we don't really need, people can shrug it off. We could also start buying more from India if we had to. Or hell, maybe we could make it ourselves!?

-End longwinded paragraph-

Yes, we owe a lot of money to China, but hey, part of the reason we fought the revolution was so we wouldn't have to pay back loans to people in Britain, right? ;) I say screw the loans, tell China to sit down and act like a good little country or pimp slap them on their ass (with missiles, of course). China has no chance of militarily hurting the states, except for the forces in South Korea. The Chinese could not get to the mainland USA, but we can invade them, though I don't see how we could, or would. A prolonged 3-5 year bombing of every major city, etc would see China in ruins. China supplies lots of shit to the USA, but its all shit we don't really need, people can shrug it off. We could also start buying more from India if we had to. Or hell, maybe we could make it ourselves!?

-End longwinded paragraph-

It would work but the immediate results would be a greater deterrent because people care more about the "now" than the "later" in most cases when planning. So, if they thought that immediate action could be detrimental, they would oppose it.

Sure it might bring jobs back but it would take a while and in the process, the economy would suffer.

"New intelligence reveals China is covertly supplying large quantities of small arms and weapons to insurgents in Iraq and the Taliban militia in Afghanistan, through Iran. "

Small arms and weapons?

They for Mujuhadeen mine victims or something?

"Hey, I see you've got no arms... you'd be the perfect tunnel trooper - here, we'll stitch these on, give you a carbine, and job's a good 'un"

China has no chance of militarily hurting the states, except for the forces in South Korea. The Chinese could not get to the mainland USA, but we can invade them, though I don't see how we could, or would.
Nuuuuukes...

Nuuuuukes...

What about them? How could they get them to US mainland? Even if they did, we've got way more than them. If they used one nuke on us, they'd be done. China would no longer exist.

What about them? How could they get them to US mainland?
Ships...
Even if they did, we've got way more than them.
I'm sure they say the same in terms of essentially disposible people.

The US would be fucked if a nuke hit a city. Not because of the actual damage (which would still be utterly tragic indeed) but because of the public relations coup.

"How did this happen?"
"Why?"
"What now?"

Are all the kind of questions that'd be asked. Society would be utterly clusterfucked.
If they used one nuke on us, they'd be done. China would no longer exist.
Err not really.

You've only got so many nukes. Yeah, you've got a lot.

But then what happens if some fallout lands over Russia? Over the EU?

What happens when a couple of thousand of China's best and brightest crawl out of the bunkers in a few years?

STOP THE PRESSES!!!!!!

A nation involved in an immoral arms trade for maximum profit!? NO WAY!!!

Ships...

I'm sure they say the same in terms of essentially disposible people.

The US would be fucked if a nuke hit a city. Not because of the actual damage (which would still be utterly tragic indeed) but because of the public relations coup.

"How did this happen?"
"Why?"
"What now?"

Are all the kind of questions that'd be asked. Society would be utterly clusterfucked.

Err not really.

You've only got so many nukes. Yeah, you've got a lot.

But then what happens if some fallout lands over Russia? Over the EU?

What happens when a couple of thousand of China's best and brightest crawl out of the bunkers in a few years?

The US still has over 5000 nukes. That's enough to end the world, and overkill for China.
If fallout hits Russia or EU? As long as Russia doesn't launch nukes they can be contained. And what's the EU going to do? Nothing, like always. They'll bitch and moan, condemn what's happening, and do nothing.

About Chinese in Bunkers: have you ever heard of our Bunker Buster bombs?

What about them? How could they get them to US mainland? Even if they did, we've got way more than them. If they used one nuke on us, they'd be done. The World would no longer exist.

There, I fixed it for you...

STOP THE PRESSES!!!!!!

A nation involved in an immoral arms trade for maximum profit!? NO WAY!!!

I wouldn't consider it immoral. Who knows, maybe they feel like the people they are supplying are fighting for freedom? :eek:

The US still has over 5000 nukes. That's enough to end the world, and overkill for China.
If fallout hits Russia or EU? As long as Russia doesn't launch nukes they can be contained. And what's the EU going to do? Nothing, like always. They'll bitch and moan, condemn what's happening, and do nothing.

About Chinese in Bunkers: have you ever heard of our Bunker Buster bombs?
Err on a scale of one to A Really Big 'if', Russia not launching nukes is A Really Big if.

Err and yes, I do know of your bunker busting bombs. The problem is finding the bleddy things more than blowing them up ;)

There, I fixed it for you...

Heh, if other nations stayed out of it and let the US utterly ruin China, the world would go on. Damage to lands surrounding china would be immense, but not world ending. World shaking, perhaps, but not ending.

Err on a scale of one to A Really Big 'if', Russia not launching nukes is A Really Big if.

Err and yes, I do know of your bunker busting bombs. The problem is finding the bleddy things more than blowing them up ;)

Very true, on both points.

The Chinese AKs look funny. I own one.

The Chinese AKs look funny. I own one.
You mean the Type 56, right?

The Chinese AKs look funny. I own one.

There are Chinese people with the last name Kalishnakov? that doesn't sound very Chinese....

You mean the Type 56, right?

I guess. The package calls it the "Norinco Sporter."

It says made in China on it, and it comes with a stupid thumb stock instead of a real stock.

I'm sure China is not selling the arms PURELY because they may be used against Americans

They manufacture arms, they sell arms - so do loads of other countries. Just because they are being used against you doesn't mean you should start shouting at China

What if the next car bomb in Iraq used a Chevvy?

'America supplies cars to insurgents'? I doubt that would be the headline

Uh huh. At first when I read the title of the thread I was quite surprised. But it is far from China intentionally shipping weapons specifically to be used against American forces. Sounds more like a case of not checking the final destination.

When I first read the title, I imagined little chinese terrorists being transported in boxes to the middle east.

Threaten China with a trade embargo. Chinese are driven by cash. Cut it in half and see what happens.

Unfortunately, China isn't a third world country. In fact, if China were to put an embargo on the U.S., we'd see economic collapse.

What all this talk about nukes? That was so Cold War era.

IF the PRC decides to take action against the US,... it will be on the economics field.

Screwing the Chinese gov't would probably hurt the US currency and credit ratings more. And if the US decides to nuke the place into oblivion,... guess where all those dollars most US companies invest in to get cheap labor is located?

From this perspective, you can see who's the gimp now.

And next we'll be talking about the YELLOW FEAR.

True that.


hmm.
To be fair, It would also hurt China a bit.

It really depends, but I think Europe and other countries could gobble up the cheap imports, plus I would imagine a massive black market Chinese import business would start up in the US.

Threaten China with a trade embargo. Chinese are driven by cash. Cut it in half and see what happens.

Yeah? See what happens when Wal-Mart shoppers can't get sneakers for two bucks a pop.

Yes, we owe a lot of money to China, but hey, part of the reason we fought the revolution was so we wouldn't have to pay back loans to people in Britain, right? ;)

In other words, never loan an American a penny. He's a backstabbing bastard.

Heh, if other nations stayed out of it and let the US utterly ruin China, the world would go on.

Russia certainly wouldn't. They'd be thinking "If they nuke China over a debt, what will they do with us? Better nuke them first"

And most of the other countries that need Chinese imports, or supply Chinese industry with raw materials, wouldn't sit still.

In other words, never loan an American a penny. He's a backstabbing bastard.

This has, of course been the conventional wisdom for the last 231 years...

Article (http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/inring.htm)
New intelligence reveals China is covertly supplying large quantities of small arms and weapons to insurgents in Iraq and the Taliban militia in Afghanistan, through Iran.


So, these are obviously large accusations that, hopefully, are well backed by on target intellegence. What are everyones thoughts on how this could affect how we handle both relations with Iran and, perhaps more importantly, with China.

NONSENSE to atleast the bolded part.

Iranian regime HATES the taliban.

The taliban killed Iranian diplomats when they came to power and the deobandi ideology of taliban consider shias to be heretical. Iran nearly went to war and stopped short because, ironically, the taliban was the dogs of Pakistan which is a client state of US.

Until Sep 11, Iran was the conduit of Indian arms and aid to the Northern Alliance. So, ironically again, it was Iran that kept alive the Northern alliance that allowed the US to take over Afg quick.

God, I feel like :headbang: at the UTTER stupidity and ignorance...

:headbang::headbang::headbang:

What about them? How could they get them to US mainland?

Same way everyone gets their nukes around, ICBMs, which China most definitely has. In addition, they have at least one or two SLBM capable subs.

NONSENSE to atleast the bolded part.

Iranian regime HATES the taliban.

The taliban killed Iranian diplomats when they came to power and the deobandi ideology of taliban consider shias to be heretical. Iran nearly went to war and stopped short because, ironically, the taliban was the dogs of Pakistan which is a client state of US.

Until Sep 11, Iran was the conduit of Indian arms and aid to the Northern Alliance. So, ironically again, it was Iran that kept alive the Northern alliance that allowed the US to take over Afg quick.

God, I feel like :headbang: at the UTTER stupidity and ignorance...

:headbang::headbang::headbang:

Shhhhhh! You'll confuse all the MTAE trolls, they are color blind.

Same way everyone gets their nukes around, ICBMs, which China most definitely has. In addition, they have at least one or two SLBM capable subs.

A lot of military proponents say the Chinese ICBMs with the range to hit the US are few in number, whereas their SSBNs are easily tracked.

The Chinese aren't dumb though. So if it came to be a time to start flinging nukes, they'd probably do it with camouflaged cargo ships in American ports.

This has, of course been the conventional wisdom for the last 231 years...

You'd think people would learn...

You'd think people would learn...

History is a CD that skips.

A lot of military proponents say the Chinese ICBMs with the range to hit the US are few in number, whereas their SSBNs are easily tracked.

The Chinese aren't dumb though. So if it came to be a time to start flinging nukes, they'd probably do it with camouflaged cargo ships in American ports.

I definitely agree on the SSBMs, last I checked they were using old Xia boats, which are roughly equivalent in noise reduction to first generation loud nuclear powered subs of the 1950s. In other words, there is no noise reduction to speak of.

As for the ICBMs, the number doesn't really matter. If they have as few as, let's say 5, then they can do crippling damage to the US, not to mention massive loss of life. The fact of the matter is they have ICBMs, and if they have more than an incredibly small number (which I bet they do), then they can overwhelm our pitiful ABM system. Not that I think we should improve our ABM system. I think we should scrap it and re-instate the ABM Treaty.

The Chinese aren't dumb though. So if it came to be a time to start flinging nukes, they'd probably do it with camouflaged cargo ships in American ports.

Or not nuke at all. I was pointing out the stupidity of the statement "so what if they have nukes, how are they going to get it to the mainland US?"

Stupid statement. In the end, using ships wouldn't help them either. You aren't going to take out any significant portion of our nuclear triad by detonating nukes on our ports. Our ICBM and bomber (read cruise missile carrying aircraft) force would be entirely unaffected, and our SSBM force would unaffected enough to destroy every major Chinese target on its own.

I'm not suggesting that China is going or thinking of nuking us, just saying that asking "how would they get it here" is stupid.

Face it, China has gone SUPERPOWER! And there's nothing you can do about it.

And they have the money and resources to back it up too... unlike The Soviet Union.

If only NS had a LOL smiley...

NONSENSE to atleast the bolded part.

Iranian regime HATES the taliban.

The taliban killed Iranian diplomats when they came to power and the deobandi ideology of taliban consider shias to be heretical. Iran nearly went to war and stopped short because, ironically, the taliban was the dogs of Pakistan which is a client state of US.

Until Sep 11, Iran was the conduit of Indian arms and aid to the Northern Alliance. So, ironically again, it was Iran that kept alive the Northern alliance that allowed the US to take over Afg quick.

God, I feel like :headbang: at the UTTER stupidity and ignorance...

:headbang::headbang::headbang:

Have you ever heard of the phrase, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend?" We really loved the Taleban. We just get along with people who carry out strict Sharia law great. Otherwise, why would we have supported them against the Soviets? WHY?!?!

Stupid statement. In the end, using ships wouldn't help them either. You aren't going to take out any significant portion of our nuclear triad by detonating nukes on our ports.


I didn't say suicide nuke carrying freighters. I said camouflaged MRBM carrying freighters. China's ICBMs with the range to hit the US from its borders is few in number and can only hit the coastal areas.

If they wanted to launch a full scale nuclear war, they're more likely to convert cargo freighters into launch vehicles for their more plentiful medium range ICBMs which can hit any point in the US from a US port. They may not be able to destroy the US's strike ability, or even hinder it, but the destruction on both sides would be equally devastating rather than the "Oh, we'll lose a city or two, but we'll glass them" scenarios portrayed by some jingoists.


I'm not suggesting that China is going or thinking of nuking us, just saying that asking "how would they get it here" is stupid.

Because there's good money that they will, one way or another.

I guess. The package calls it the "Norinco Sporter."

It says made in China on it, and it comes with a stupid thumb stock instead of a real stock.

norincos are pretty well made rifles.you have a good clone of an ak.i have a bulgarian milled one,also nice and it also came with that awful looking thumbhole stock.
i replaced mine with the traditional looking pistol grip setup.
keep in mind that if you do that,you will be in violation of the assault weapon ban stupidiy,unless you replace 5 foriegn made parts with us made parts.(assuming you live in america)
i obviously swapped the parts out for american made stuff so i could get the original look back.
the bill was the dumbest pice of legislation ever written,like some one cares if you get shot with a thumbhole stock gun or the pistol grip version,lol,i also feel safer knowing that there was a huge reduction in drive-by bayonettings.as mine had the bayo lug ground off.as per law all post ban s had too.
to the op(sorry for the diversion)i doubt america and china will ever go at each other,for the forseeable future,we are to interdependant economically to ever do that.
it may have flareups over certain issues(the relationship)but big picture wise..we are too valuable to each other as it stands now.

Have you ever heard of the phrase, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend?" yes I have

http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/index.jhtml?ml_video=88491

:D

If only NS had a LOL smiley...

Yes, I LOL often at the inability of some Americans to comprehend that their loosing their superpower status.

yes I have

http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/index.jhtml?ml_video=88491

:D

If I didn't think he was at least a little serious I wouldn't think that John Stewart was an idiot.

Yes, I LOL often at the inability of some Americans to comprehend that their loosing their superpower status.

History would show that having 2 superpowers is completely possible. Unless your memory doesn't go back 20 years...

yes I have

http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/index.jhtml?ml_video=88491

:D

If he wasn't being serious that would be pretty funny.

History would show that having 2 superpowers is completely possible. Unless your memory doesn't go back 20 years...

Remember what happened to that other guy, the Soviet Union? They invaded a Middle Eastern country too! How well did that work out for them?

Remember what happened to that other guy, the Soviet Union? They invaded a Middle Eastern country too! How well did that work out for them?

The U.S. was much further committed to Vietnam than the USSR was to Afghanistan. Which country is still standing? If we are going to use your flaky logic then I guess it is good to be engaged in a long drawn out conflict that you lose in the end.

What about them? How could they get them to US mainland?

Same way they've been able to for more than 25 years - ICBMs and SLBMs.

Same way everyone gets their nukes around, ICBMs, which China most definitely has. In addition, they have at least one or two SLBM capable subs.

A lot of military proponents say the Chinese ICBMs with the range to hit the US are few in number, whereas their SSBNs are easily tracked.

The Chinese aren't dumb though. So if it came to be a time to start flinging nukes, they'd probably do it with camouflaged cargo ships in American ports.

I definitely agree on the SSBMs, last I checked they were using old Xia boats, which are roughly equivalent in noise reduction to first generation loud nuclear powered subs of the 1950s. In other words, there is no noise reduction to speak of.

They had 2 Xias, although 1 may have been lost. They carry 12 JL-1s. The remaining boat was overhauled in 1995, and may be outfitted with JL-2s. The Type 94 was supposed to be operational by 2005 but has been delayed. The Type 94s are supposed to carry 12 JL-21As.

As for the ICBMs, the number doesn't really matter. If they have as few as, let's say 5, then they can do crippling damage to the US, not to mention massive loss of life. The fact of the matter is they have ICBMs, and if they have more than an incredibly small number (which I bet they do), then they can overwhelm our pitiful ABM system.

Estimates vary from 24 to 36 D-5s (able to hit thewestern US) and up to 10 D-31As (able to hit the whole of the US).

I'm not suggesting that China is going or thinking of nuking us, just saying that asking "how would they get it here" is stupid.

Bingo.

I think the point is, in sync with the proliferation treaty, that China has disarmed most of their warheads, but it's also important to remember that they are sitting on like 10 tonnes of plutonium.

First part, correct. Second part, wrong. China is holding up the US economy pretty much single-handedly. They are currently artificially keeping their currency undervalued which is hurting trading for American companies, but we can't do shit about it. Any pressure put on Chinese exports will cause them to stop pinning up our economy by buying bonds or whatever it is and tariff our imports, probably more. China could easily ruin the US and drop the world's economy off a cliff if the US decides to fuck with them economically.

Please explain how this doesn't fuck China's economy up as much as everyone elses. They'll only do that in repsonse to U.S. economic warfare, which isn't likely to happen.

China's leaders are more concerned with keeping their own people in line...ruining their own economy is hardly the way to go about it.

Please explain how this doesn't fuck China's economy up as much as everyone elses. They'll only do that in repsonse to U.S. economic warfare, which isn't likely to happen.

China's leaders are more concerned with keeping their own people in line...ruining their own economy is hardly the way to go about it.

Well for one, China could simply send it's cheap exports to Europe of elsewhere, which is itself is exporting deflation both abroad and to Europe or wherever. US exports far more retail and the like products from China than it exports, most Western economies are actually trying to specialize their workforce in training to keep up in other areas. Plus the fact that the US is in deficit and China could simply call their bond debts, which would put the US in recession for sure. You have to understand that the world needs Chinese production because they can't do it themselves. It wouldn't so much hurt China as it would the US, especially considering Indian, South African and German markets etc.

You have to understand that the world needs Chinese production because they can't do it themselves. It wouldn't so much hurt China as it would the US, especially considering Indian, South African and German markets etc.

It's not so much that as it is nobody can manufacture goods in the quantities China can at a competitive cost. It's comparative advantage and nothing more. They're just capable of marshaling their cheap labor resources and putting them in to manufacturing for export, and that enables them to produce enormous quantities of goods for low cost.

In terms of productivity and technological advancement, Chinese manufacturing is still massively backward in most sectors compared to the developed world.

*snip paragraph I can barely follow*

Ugh...

1. I never said the U.S. wouldn't be screwed.

2. People talk like the there's another market for $300 billion in Chinese exports just lying about...and it just ain't so, or they'd be upping their exports to sell to those markets.

There is a thing called Tit For Tat.
How's about we go ahead and start sending weapons to the Tibet Freedom Fighter and start giving offensive ships and aircraft to Taiwan.

How's about we go ahead and start sending weapons to the Tibet Freedom Fighter and start giving offensive ships and aircraft to Taiwan.

We'd be better off allowing Japan to rebuild its offensive military capabilities... that would put pressure on the PRC. Add in some weapons for Taiwan and Tibet and you'd have a containment policy that would make George Keenan proud.

That makes it ok then.....

They don't mean ill well. I don't think. They probably are just attempting to "contain" the US by giving weapons to people who happen to enjoy mass murder of civilians.

Trade embargo? China? Excuse me while I go laugh myself half to death.
They are debating whether or not putting tariffs on Chinese goods would destroy the American economy. Put an embargo on China and they stop holding up America.

Any actions taken against China economically will result in them either partially or entirely dropping the American economy on its ass.
Any actions taken against China militarily, either in support of Tibet or Taiwan, will result in dropping the American economy and swift military action against both us and Taiwan (and Tibet if we help them).

Whoa there Kemosabe.

The world's economy depends on the US economy. If the US economy tanks, so does everyone elses, including China's.
Most of Europe won't trade with China cause of human rights issues. The Europeans are stricter on those terms than America is.

As for military action, there is nothing China can do. Particularly in the case of Taiwan. If China wanted to fight the US it would lose. China's still working with a world war II military forces whereas the US has a 21st century force, allegorically speaking.

The world's economy depends on the US economy. If the US economy tanks, so does everyone elses, including China's.

The difference being that in the event of an economic war between the two, China can recover, exporting to other markets. The US, with the majority of its goods manufactured externally, can't. China is better geared to survive an economic war than the US is and recover faster.


Most of Europe won't trade with China cause of human rights issues. The Europeans are stricter on those terms than America is.


I don't see Europe putting sanctions against Chinese exports. When push comes to shove, they'll adapt.


As for military action, there is nothing China can do. Particularly in the case of Taiwan. If China wanted to fight the US it would lose. China's still working with a world war II military forces whereas the US has a 21st century force, allegorically speaking.

Too big a disparity. I'd say at least 1990s level technology in ground forces.

If only NS had a LOL smiley...

That WHAT WAS MISSING FROM MY POST!

That smiley would really convey my actual perspective on this debacle.

there is couple of problems with you guy's arguments, i mean first:

Arming Japan, couple problems with this, South Korea get HUGELY pissed at this idea and so does the chinese people (way more then the government, just to show you how much, in the past 10 years, the chinese government had to arrest people for trying to start Anti-Japanses marches *violent ones with burning flags and crap*)

Arming taiwan, does that mean the US reconised a country that they haven't reconized in 30 years? also, do you really thing the US isn't already doing that?

Shoting nukes at china, wow, that a dum idea, China and Russia has a 20year mutual alliance treaty signed the last time i checked, so you would get missiles from Russia too.

Arming the tibetian rebels, i guess china could just send money to al-queida or however you spell that, basicaly the exact same effect

Starting war with china, ok lets say china does have old millatary technology from the 70's (they have mostly 90's tech from soviet union, they bought a lot after soviet clapse) you have to deal with this
:mp5::mp5::mp5::mp5::mp5::mp5::mp5::mp5::mp5::mp5

.... so on and on, chinese people are pretty patriotic, the propaganda works... and just look at what the terroists are doing, you can expect 10 times worse, and you can't just bomb people's houses randomly, the EU (which was stated to have high value on human rights) would surely do something

Economical war, totaly trash i say, imagine your house without a single thing made in china, no refrigerator, no AC, no TV, no Computer, no small elctronics, sure you can probably still get them, but it will be SO EXPENSIVE, not to mention how are you going to all the sudden make factories in the USA and get enough people to produce these things? and even if china's economy goes into ruins, people would just go back to farming rice lol, not to mention that terroists would probably pop up in many places, O WHAT WAS THAT, DID YOUR COMPUTER JUST GET HACKED? I BET IT"S THE HONKERS OMGMGGG

o yea did i mention there is something called the UN, i don't think 2 members of the Security counsol can just start a war for no reason.... especialy if the US is going to initiate it.

It's not so much that as it is nobody can manufacture goods in the quantities China can at a competitive cost. It's comparative advantage and nothing more. They're just capable of marshaling their cheap labor resources and putting them in to manufacturing for export, and that enables them to produce enormous quantities of goods for low cost.

In terms of productivity and technological advancement, Chinese manufacturing is still massively backward in most sectors compared to the developed world.

That's what I meant, but it's not like trade unions and workplace laws (as well as the work culture) in the West are just going to disappear, so we will always be beholden to China for our need.

there is couple of problems with you guy's arguments, i mean first:

Arming Japan, couple problems with this, South Korea get HUGELY pissed at this idea and so does the chinese people (way more then the government, just to show you how much, in the past 10 years, the chinese government had to arrest people for trying to start Anti-Japanses marches *violent ones with burning flags and crap*)

Arming taiwan, does that mean the US reconised a country that they haven't reconized in 30 years? also, do you really thing the US isn't already doing that?

Shoting nukes at china, wow, that a dum idea, China and Russia has a 20year mutual alliance treaty signed the last time i checked, so you would get missiles from Russia too.

Arming the tibetian rebels, i guess china could just send money to al-queida or however you spell that, basicaly the exact same effect

Starting war with china, ok lets say china does have old millatary technology from the 70's (they have mostly 90's tech from soviet union, they bought a lot after soviet clapse) you have to deal with this
:mp5::mp5::mp5::mp5::mp5::mp5::mp5::mp5::mp5::mp5

.... so on and on, chinese people are pretty patriotic, the propaganda works... and just look at what the terroists are doing, you can expect 10 times worse, and you can't just bomb people's houses randomly, the EU (which was stated to have high value on human rights) would surely do something

Economical war, totaly trash i say, imagine your house without a single thing made in china, no refrigerator, no AC, no TV, no Computer, no small elctronics, sure you can probably still get them, but it will be SO EXPENSIVE, not to mention how are you going to all the sudden make factories in the USA and get enough people to produce these things? and even if china's economy goes into ruins, people would just go back to farming rice lol, not to mention that terroists would probably pop up in many places, O WHAT WAS THAT, DID YOUR COMPUTER JUST GET HACKED? I BET IT"S THE HONKERS OMGMGGG

o yea did i mention there is something called the UN, i don't think 2 members of the Security counsol can just start a war for no reason.... especialy if the US is going to initiate it.

I don't think Japan really needed other's help to re-arm themselves :

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/naval-forces/5721-rankings-military-spending.html

Look... 4th tied with France in military spending, and PM Shinzo Abe doesn't keep it a secret that he plans to re-instate the JSDF into a more active role.

I don't think Japan really needed other's help to re-arm themselves :

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/naval-forces/5721-rankings-military-spending.html

Look... 4th tied with France in military spending, and PM Shinzo Abe doesn't keep it a secret that he plans to re-instate the JSDF into a more active role.


yup and just like that here are a few pissed off chinese/koreans/hong kongers

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4450975.stm anti japanese protest in ShangHai

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0418-04.htm Protest in Hongkong

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/member/member.html?nn20051116a3.htm this one at a meeting

although none of the stories above are about the remilitarization of japan, i can tell you that people will get a lot more pissed off

China's only exploitable resource is humans. They lack heavy industry.
The Soviet Union had tremendous heavy industry, tremendous military, tremendous resources, and a larger population than the US. They had plenty to back it up. China only has the masses.
China is not a Superpower today, not to the extent the United States is and the Soviet Union was.

HAHAHAHA!

http://www.ebeijing.gov.cn/China/Industry/t156909.htm

http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/gyzg/t227445.htm

http://english.people.com.cn/200311/27/eng20031127_129199.shtml

And I suppose those tanks, weapons, subs, jets and space crafts were just subcontracted to India right?

*whut?*

even if China had minitary power would they ever use it?

they're big on tanks and planes but would their people support a war (not that it would matter a whole lot in China)

would the PLA be ready for a war? right now they just stand there like a pumped up police force - the last time they made war on another country (correct me if I am wrong) was against Vietnam and they got their asses handed to them

even if they're more powerful on paper they lack the will and know-how to do anything with those numbers

Schrandtopia;12786953']

would the PLA be ready for a war? right now they just stand there like a pumped up police force - the last time they made war on another country (correct me if I am wrong) was against Vietnam and they got their asses handed to them


Even the US gets their asses handed to them by the Vietnamese. But really, which war is this? Is this one of those cold war proxy wars? Or is it this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War

The Sino–Vietnamese War or Third Indochina War was a brief but bloody border war fought in 1979 between the People's Republic of China (PRC) and the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. The PRC launched the offensive largely in response to Vietnam's invasion and subsequent occupation of Cambodia, a war which ended the genocidal reign of PRC-backed Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge. After a brief incursion into northern Vietnam, PRC troops withdrew about a month later. Both sides claimed victory.

I would agree though on the PLA's status as a paper tiger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_tiger

I hope somebody notices the irony.

Lol, China has no heavy industry, why is it then that China will be outdoing the US in industrial output in a few years?

Lol, China has no heavy industry, why is it then that China will be outdoing the US in industrial output in a few years?

People. More than two times as many as the US, to be precise. Chinese cities also are some of the most densely-populated areas on the planet, so they can afford to build large factories and accomodate workers from far and away for a low wage, irregardless of how inefficient their factories are.

That, and their ability to outsource their capital due to how much they are raking in the processed goods sector would make them a shoe-in if the US were to ever enact any embargo.

We'd be better off allowing Japan to rebuild its offensive military capabilities... that would put pressure on the PRC. Add in some weapons for Taiwan and Tibet and you'd have a containment policy that would make George Keenan proud.

Ah yes... nothing like creating regional unstability to give the US an advantage. Work great in the ME didn't it? ;)

People. More than two times as many as the US, to be precise. Chinese cities also are some of the most densely-populated areas on the planet, so they can afford to build large factories and accomodate workers from far and away for a low wage, irregardless of how inefficient their factories are.

That, and their ability to outsource their capital due to how much they are raking in the processed goods sector would make them a shoe-in if the US were to ever enact any embargo.

OOoo! Excessive collateral damage! Now that's how you put a dent in their plans!

Plus the fact that the US is in deficit and China could simply call their bond debts, which would put the US in recession for sure.

You don't understand.

If you loan me $100, it is my burden. If you loan me $1,000,000, then it is your burden.

If USD devalues, it wipes away the value of all those bonds the Chinese hold. It is very much in China's self-interest to prop up the US atleast until it can develop its internal market...which is atleast a good decade or more away.

You have to understand that the world needs Chinese production because they can't do it themselves.

Nonsense.

China makes half the socks of the world. So, if China decides to stop making socks, would we all walk without socks forever?

It is only a matter of time before market forces kick in and plants are opened in US to feed the demand of products that are currently coming from China.

it my be natural, easy, and perfectly understandable to pick on p.r.c. china. they've done some not very nice things and are still doing a few of them. but arming and training 'THE TERRORISTS' is (almost entirely) america's own doing, particularly that political faction that trys to call itself "conservative", in order to keep scaring its own populass into keeping it in power, or rather, not rising up against it since it is actually the corporate mafia putting and keeping it in power anyway, and of course as a way of demonizing, in the eyes of the great mass of gullable joe sixpacks, anyone who does.

=^^=
.../\...

And I suppose those tanks, weapons, subs, jets and space crafts were just subcontracted to India right?

*whut?*
If by "subcontracted to India," you mean "bought from Russia," yes, they were.

I don't think Japan really needed other's help to re-arm themselves :
That's ok, we are arming them anyway. They are one of the two or three countries with a military trading agreement with the US. Currently, they are working on getting some F-22s.

If by "subcontracted to India," you mean "bought from Russia," yes, they were.

Can't India export the Su30's that they are allowed to build?

EDIT: Wait, I think they are assemble only so no export :( .

That's ok, we are arming them anyway. They are one of the two or three countries with a military trading agreement with the US. Currently, they are working on getting some F-22s.

They won't get the proper F-22. The best that they could get is a heavily reduced export model (even that is unlikely). They will probably be roped into purchasing the F35 (that wouldn't be too bad if it is used for defence with Japan compared to defence in Aus because the area required to be covered is less).

Also the U.S is selling military equipment to Taiwan. The only reason why the Taiwanese don't buy more is because they seem to have a long decision making process. That doesn't stop them being cajoled by the U.S to finally decide to buy something.