NationStates Jolt Archive

The title for this thread comes from a comment made by my dear friend Corneliu, way back in March 2006 (http://forums3.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10618789&postcount=154).

Now, you be the judge. Does Iraq have sovereignity (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070617/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq)?

From the article:

In Baghdad, aides to Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki told The Associated Press that talks Saturday between the U.S. defense secretary and the Iraqi leader were difficult.

Two top advisers to the prime minister said al-Maliki, a Shiite, objected vigorously to the new U.S. policy of arming and training Sunni militants in the fight against al-Qaida. NO KIDDING????

A third said Gates told al-Maliki that political and legislative action sought by the U.S., including a new law to share oil revenues among all Iraqis, must be complete by September when the defense secretary has to report to Congress on progress in Iraq.
Yup, democracy in action???

It's not surprising. We Americans have this gigantic egoistic tendency to completely ignore the sovereignty of any nation that cannot force us to recognize it whenver it suits our interests. Why should Iraq be any different in this regard, given standard American foreign policies?

...

Jesus, no wonder Fass hates the U.S. so much...

I wonder if Corny's gonna come pay a visit, hmmm?
;)

It's not surprising. We Americans have this gigantic egoistic tendency to completely ignore the sovereignty of any nation that cannot force us to recognize it whenver it suits our interests. Why should Iraq be any different in this regard, given standard American foreign policies?
I wouldn't saddle all the blame on Americans.......just some Americans at the top of the sand pile.

This is news? Honestly, the US government has a LONG history of supporting democracy, as long as they do what we tell them to. We support that kind of democracy. Not actual democracy.

I wouldn't saddle all the blame on Americans.......just some Americans at the top of the sand pile.

I would. We're moronic enough to accept what our politicians tell us, or at least most of us are. There are the vocal minorities who try to stop this sort of thing, but they're never listened to, while the vast majority elect the same kind of people again and again. We're just as responsible for this kind of bullshit as our leaders, and it's high time we take that responsibility.

I would. We're moronic enough to accept what our politicians tell us, or at least most of us are. There are the vocal minorities who try to stop this sort of thing, but they're never listened to, while the vast majority elect the same kind of people again and again. We're just as responsible for this kind of bullshit as our leaders, and it's high time we take that responsibility.

Um, question. Even if the majority of Americans passively support this kind of thing (and I've no doubt they do), doesn't that make them responsible and not those of us who don't?

Um, question. Even if the majority of Americans passively support this kind of thing (and I've no doubt they do), doesn't that make them responsible and not those of us who don't?

I suppose it's like any fear/cowardice that we've allowed to go so far before.
These kinds of things need to seriously dent our way of life for us to get a set of balls about it, apparently.

Um, question. Even if the majority of Americans passively support this kind of thing (and I've no doubt they do), doesn't that make them responsible and not those of us who don't?

We're still responsible because we haven't stopped them from continuing this idiocy.

...

Okay, so maybe I'm taking this a little bit far, since it's not as if it's been a lack of trying that is our problem, but still...at the very least, we share a small part, I think, especially those of us who are vocally against this sort of thing but don't even try to work against it.

Yup, democracy in action???

Democracy inaction, is more like it.

This is news? Honestly, the US government has a LONG history of supporting democracy, as long as they do what we tell them to. We support that kind of democracy. Not actual democracy.
See the absolute collapse of Palestine over the last couple of days because of this.

See the absolute collapse of Palestine over the last couple of days because of this.

This has bearing...how?

Smells like wet straw.

You see... most voters come from the bygone era where the government is always seen as right and anybody who doesn't support thier stance is a pinko-commie-fascist-zipperhead-nazi. In the next 10-20 years when those people die off then hopefully we will see a change in the trend were most government officials don't serve many terms of office.

This has bearing...how?

Smells like wet straw.
Errr might well be, you know, slightly linked.

The Middle East is, at this point in time, the US' bitch.

Absolutely nobody has any kind of sovereignty there unless the US says so. True of Iraq, Syria, Israel, Lebanon, you name it, they exist at the US' mercy.

Errr might well be, you know, slightly linked.

The Middle East is, at this point in time, the US' bitch.

Absolutely nobody has any kind of sovereignty there unless the US says so. True of Iraq, Syria, Israel, Lebanon, you name it, they exist at the US' mercy.

QFT.

Errr might well be, you know, slightly linked.

The Middle East is, at this point in time, the US' bitch.

Absolutely nobody has any kind of sovereignty there unless the US says so. True of Iraq, Syria, Israel, Lebanon, you name it, they exist at the US' mercy.

Ahhh, I did not see what you meant earlier and thought it an attempt to deflect the topic.

These kinds of things need to seriously dent our way of life for us to get a set of balls about it, apparently.
You would think that 9/11 was the wake up call, but it would appear that the message that was delivered was misconstrued by the US administration.....

Bush pledges to spread democracy (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/20/bush.speech/index.html)

"It is the policy of the United States to seek and support the growth of democratic movements and institutions in every nation and culture, with the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in our world," Bush said in his inaugural address after his swearing-in ceremony.
Spreading "democracy" by invading a sovereign country on trumped up charges is the answer?

This is news? Honestly, the US government has a LONG history of supporting democracy, as long as they do what we tell them to. We support that kind of democracy. Not actual democracy.

That's because to the people at the top, democracy=capitalism. Think I'm overstating the case? When the Coalition Provisional Authority took power, one of their primary goals was the establishment of a "free market economy." No more of all that socialist stuff--universal health care, etc. Gotta get rid of that stuff.

Spreading "democracy" by invading a sovereign country on trumped up charges is the answer?

Do as he says, not as he does.
:(

That's because to the people at the top, democracy=capitalism. Think I'm overstating the case? When the Coalition Provisional Authority took power, one of their primary goals was the establishment of a "free market economy." No more of all that socialist stuff--universal health care, etc. Gotta get rid of that stuff.
In other words, Iraq can have a "democracy" as long as they implement an American ideology. Iraq sovereignity is truly not an option in the forseeable future.

This has bearing...how?

Smells like wet straw.

In that way where the U.S. cut off funds to the Palestinians the second Hamas was elected to office.

In that way where the U.S. cut off funds to the Palestinians the second Hamas was elected to office.

See above post. Was misunderstanding.

In other words, Iraq can have a "democracy" as long as they implement an American ideology. Iraq sovereignity is truly not an option in the forseeable future.

Considering the influence of Iran (Shia-majority) and Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Syria (Sunni-majority), along with the rise of aptly-named death squads from each sect, it doesn't seem logical for Iraq to have *any* sort of organized govt, democracy or not, in the near future.

the only soverignty is the corporate mafia. nations and flags are irrelivant. wasn't that the whole point of max's books that started this whole nation states thing?

of course no such blinding self consuming state of affairs is eternal either.

what replaces it will be interesting to see. for those who survive to do so.

i'm not putting any bets on capitolism or marxism either.

i might want to come back to this earth in another two or three lifetimes after the dust has settled, the rivers are running clear again and total human population has drasticlly imploded. just to satisfy my own curiousity on such matters.

=^^=
.../\...

In other words, Iraq can have a "democracy" as long as they implement an American ideology. Iraq sovereignity is truly not an option in the forseeable future.

This is a case where the next election can make a difference. I said a year ago that the winner of the 2008 presidential election will be the candidate who can most believably say that the pullout of US troops will begin Jan. 20, 2009, and I stand by that.

You see... most voters come from the bygone era where the government is always seen as right and anybody who doesn't support thier stance is a pinko-commie-fascist-zipperhead-nazi. In the next 10-20 years when those people die off then hopefully we will see a change in the trend were most government officials don't serve many terms of office.

You're an utopist, aren't you?

Many intelligent-looking people will turn into old-fashioned morons in the next 10-20 years. The percentage of idiots will stay the same, sadly.:(

NO WAY!!

Iraq ISN'T a shining beacon of democracy in the Middle East!!

AND

The US is keeping Iraq as a virtual PUPPET STATE!!!

I for one am thoroughly shocked....

I wouldn't saddle all the blame on Americans.......just some Americans at the top of the sand pile.

In this instance, the dudes at the top are having one hell of a time keeping their footing.

Silly people, only America has sovereignty. Duh.

You're an utopist, aren't you?

Many intelligent-looking people will turn into old-fashioned morons in the next 10-20 years. The percentage of idiots will stay the same, sadly.:(

That is because idiots breed in huge numbers to increase the percentage of their offspring that will survive the idiocy gene.

*nods and puts on the scientific hat*

Another good argument for having a UN nation-building mission instead of a US puppet-propping venture, back in 2003.

The UN respects the sovereignty of it's member states. Occupiers tend not to.

You would think that 911 was the wake up call.. 911 emergency call

use in real emergency, just as a last resort.

In this instance, the dudes at the top are having one hell of a time keeping their footing.

My heart bleeds.

OP

Wait, since when was an elected official able to change policy or pass legislation by stating an opinion?

This is a case where the next election can make a difference. I said a year ago that the winner of the 2008 presidential election will be the candidate who can most believably say that the pullout of US troops will begin Jan. 20, 2009, and I stand by that.
The draw back of troops should begin long before then?

There are many bridges to build and they can't be built if they keep getting blown up.

The draw back of troops should begin long before then?

There are many bridges to build and they can't be built if they keep getting blown up.

Nope. Bush has said leaving is losing, and he's not going to be seen as a loser. There will be a substantial number of troops in Iraq come Inauguration Day 2009---count on it.

And we'll be at about 40,000 posts apiece if the servers hold out. ;)