NationStates Jolt Archive

Alright, I think I have heard too many times on NSG that Iran is building nuclear weapons as a matter of fact, when clearly the evidence is comparable to Powell telling the assembly about rail mounted chemical labs yada yada. So peoples, if you want anyone to believe that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, please I invite people to post the clear and incontrovertible evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Iran is developing nuclear weapons and not just enriching for energy.

Hurry up, and if I catch anyone on this forum saying it as a matter of fact again, I will refer you to this thread.

Their leader seems to think it's a fact. :p

Discounting the rhetoric of the Iranian leadership.

Anything beyond x number of centrifuges is excessive for Iran's domestic energy needs, especially if they're used in a cascade.

Massive, industrial scale underground construction projects at known nuclear sites, yet entirely without the usual accoutrements of a nuclear power facility.

The levels of state secrecy associated with the development of these associated nuclear projects. It's not like the technology in use is any sort of a secret to anyone, so why try to keep it secret if you're trying to achieve an open process to provide your people with electric power? It raises eyebrows dearie, when secrecy is of utmost importance on such a "civilian" project.

Further, I would be concerned if Iran made large-scale purchases of Tritium on the open market...which hasn't happened yet, but that's a key moment to attaining certainty.

Circumstantial evidence, yes. But more than enough to raise eyebrows within any interested intelligence community. Decidedly insufficient to take any military action, but enough to concern the interested parties. Especially the Egyptians and the Saudis, now that Iraq is no longer the wonderful buffer state it once was.

The leader seem to believe it, in fact he wants to use the Nukes on Israel. Personally I just want to nuke the entire Middle East and get it over with.

What?

Comon you know it's going to happen sooner or later.

Yes you do, don't lie to yourself.

Discounting the rhetoric of the Iranian leadership.

Anything beyond x number of centrifuges is excessive for Iran's domestic energy needs, especially if they're used in a cascade.

Massive, industrial scale underground construction projects at known nuclear sites, yet entirely without the usual accoutrements of a nuclear power facility.

The levels of state secrecy associated with the development of these associated nuclear projects. It's not like the technology in use is any sort of a secret to anyone, so why try to keep it secret if you're trying to achieve an open process to provide your people with electric power? It raises eyebrows dearie, when secrecy is of utmost importance on such a "civilian" project.

Further, I would be concerned if Iran made large-scale purchases of Tritium on the open market...which hasn't happened yet, but that's a key moment to attaining certainty.

Circumstantial evidence, yes. But more than enough to raise eyebrows within any interested intelligence community. Decidedly insufficient to take any military action, but enough to concern the interested parties. Especially the Egyptians and the Saudis, now that Iraq is no longer the wonderful buffer state it once was.

Yes, no evidence you mean. Come on peoples, I want real evidence!

Yes, no evidence you mean. Come on peoples, I want real evidence!

So basically you Ahmadinejad to come to your house and tell you in person that Iran has a Nuclear weapons program? Or perhaps you would like a guided tour of the facilities?

So basically you Ahmadinejad to come to your house and tell you in person that Iran has a Nuclear weapons program? Or perhaps you would like a guided tour of the facilities?

Now *that* would prove it to me, no question! :p

We didn't know that the Nazis were actually exterminating millions of people, but it was obvious that they were doing it even though no hard evidence existed.

Also, what evidence the government gets, is usually more detailed then what we get, since they have access to spies and defectors.

So basically you Ahmadinejad to come to your house and tell you in person that Iran has a Nuclear weapons program? Or perhaps you would like a guided tour of the facilities?

I don't care how it's done, as long as it's beyond any reasonable doubt. I am quite sick of people saying is developing nukes as a matter of fact when they only have vague circumstantial evidence, nothing really substantive.

Yes, no evidence you mean. Come on peoples, I want real evidence!

There is no such thing as "real" evidence Instead circumstantial evidence

Circumstantial evidence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstantial_evidence) is real evidence, you nitwit.

What I gather from your post, though, is that you desire direct evidence, the famed "smoking gun," which is far from easy to provide, because perpetrators will often attempt to cover up, or keep secret existing direct evidence. This is made even more difficult knowing that what is trying to be proven is being hidden by a government with far greater resources than any individual on this forum.

No dearie, you're wrong, circumstantial evidence is strong, and in western legal systems it's sufficient to convict in court.

Further...

Circumstantial evidence can be, and often is much more powerful than direct evidence

This is a quote from the trial of Timothy McVeigh, when the defense tried to argue that the circumstantial evidence compiled against him was insufficient. As we can all tell, the prosecution won out on this matter.

No, your statement shows an utter lack of understanding of most basic elements of evidetiary concepts. This basic failure discredits any and all ability you have to play the role as objective judge to any information presented.

Go to high school civics class and come back when you stayed awake the entire time.

I don't care how it's done, as long as it's beyond any reasonable doubt. I am quite sick of people saying is developing nukes as a matter of fact when they only have vague circumstantial evidence, nothing really substantive.

Tell me, if they are just developing Nuclear Power Plants, then why the underground facilities, why not open things up to the UN to inspect, why all the talk about wanting to nuke Israel off the map, huh?

Also, don't forget that other countries offered to give Iran some Nuclear Power Plants, but they turned it down.

Pity, I thought BAAWA had returned.

http://hottopstx.com/images/the%20bitch%20is%20back.jpg

The evidence I have provided is enough to rationally and logically draw a limited conclusion. Now, if I were a state-actor, I would now be justified in undertaking measures to gather direct evidence on the matter, so as to see if my concerns are justified or not.

Unfortunately, none of us here are state-actors, we don't have intelligence services at our immediate disposal and most of us have better things to do with our time than to wander off to a miserable fucking hellhole where they hang homosexuals from construction cranes to find that information.

Alright, I think I have heard too many times on NSG that Iran is building nuclear weapons as a matter of fact, when clearly the evidence is comparable to Powell telling the assembly about rail mounted chemical labs yada yada. So peoples, if you want anyone to believe that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, please I invite people to post the clear and incontrovertible evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Iran is developing nuclear weapons and not just enriching for energy.

Hurry up, and if I catch anyone on this forum saying it as a matter of fact again, I will refer you to this thread.

i am masturbating..prove it...get a grip sunny.

while your in your quest for truth...prove powel lied..jack ass
he probably did but go ahead and prove it...your the one calling people on the carpet now aint ya...i bet i have a easier time proving what you obviously yhink is un provable then what you think is not.
saddam DID gas the kurds(gas he got from us...so we know)he was building a reactor till the israilis blew it up,so it aint a strecth to consider him a threat in the wmd game...or are you just blind and like rhetoric?
so we aint found any...well they are there cause we gave it to him you dumb ass..lol.
iran is building a bomb and only a twit would think different..the real question is what does the world do about it...but ask your teacher...they know what you should say!

Tell me, if they are just developing Nuclear Power Plants, then why the underground facilities, why not open things up to the UN to inspect, why all the talk about wanting to nuke Israel off the map, huh?

Also, don't forget that other countries offered to give Iran some Nuclear Power Plants, but they turned it down.

Their nuclear plants are underground to stop the USA from attacking them, but because they're underground, the USA is suspicious and is more likely to attack them, so they need to be underground, which increases suspicion and makes an attack more likely, so...

;)

Tell me, if they are just developing Nuclear Power Plants, then why the underground facilities, why not open things up to the UN to inspect, why all the talk about wanting to nuke Israel off the map, huh?

Also, don't forget that other countries offered to give Iran some Nuclear Power Plants, but they turned it down.

Well for your first part, it maybe security reasons, even for power generation it's still a dangerous technology and Iran maybe afraid of insurgents, criminals or whatnot, or maybe they were afraid of international reaction thinking it was for weapons and not energy, and were afraid of bombs. I mean have you ever been to Lucas Heights in Australia, I haven't because I can't get anywhere near it without being arrested. The place doesn't enrich, it's doesn't make power, all the place does is make isotopes for cancer patients. I think Iran is entitled to secure it's investments, I mean what is stopping a pro-US suicide bomber from say hijacking a plane and crashing it into Natanz? That's probably why it is underground. Also the UN is nothing but a US tool these days, this is the same organisation that sat by and let the whole world supply Iraq with bombs, bullets, shells and gas to kill Iranians for nearly a decade, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't trust the UN.

And to your second point, hatred of Israel is not a new thing, nor is it too be taken so seriously. Even the Shah believed the US media was controlled by Jewish interests, and he hated Israel. The history of the wars etc etc is reason for this, and if you want to take political rhetoric at face value then your a fool.

what is stopping a pro-US suicide bomber from say hijacking a plane and crashing it into Natanz?

I'm sure the Iranians are shaking in their boots in fear of a US suicide attack on their facilities...

Well for your first part, it maybe security reasons, even for power generation it's still a dangerous technology and Iran maybe afraid of insurgents, criminals or whatnot, or maybe they were afraid of international reaction thinking it was for weapons and not energy, and were afraid of bombs. I mean have you ever been to Lucas Heights in Australia, I haven't because I can't get anywhere near it without being arrested. The place doesn't enrich, it's doesn't make power, all the place does is make isotopes for cancer patients. I think Iran is entitled to secure it's investments, I mean what is stopping a pro-US suicide bomber from say hijacking a plane and crashing it into Natanz? That's probably why it is underground. Also the UN is nothing but a US tool these days, this is the same organisation that sat by and let the whole world supply Iraq with bombs, bullets, shells and gas to kill Iranians for nearly a decade, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't trust the UN.

Except it was the USSR and Egypt that were the primary suppliers of Hussein...not the US.

Further, Natanz is not a nuclear reactor site, it's a nuclear processing site, designed to create nuclear fuels or reactive materials. Nuclear reactor sites would require easy access to a lot of water and come complete with the cooling towers. Neither of which is present at Natanz.

Further, it would be sufficiently protected by the extensive and modern SAM infrastructure deployed in the vicinty, there would be no need further physical shielding if their concern was an external threat of the nature you describe. Instead, it is underground to harden it against modern military strikes, as well as to make it nearly impossible to observe from space with reconnaissance satellites.

In short, you're wrong. There's a million reasons why your justifications are absurd, and I don't want to put the effort in to show you why.

It was just an example, the point being Iran has a right to protect facilities which cost them alot of money.

Then why aren't Nuclear power plants all over the world underground?

I'm sure the Iranians are shaking in their boots in fear of a US suicide attack on their facilities...
It was just an example, the point being Iran has a right to protect facilities which cost them alot of money.

It was just an example, the point being Iran has a right to protect facilities which cost them alot of money.

Except for the fact that Iran has never made that claim or justification for using this m.o. If they had, you'd have some credibility, but they haven't.

Further, if this were the case, they would use it at all of their nuclear sites, but they haven't. Natanz seems to be the exception, and it's the place where the most questionable stuff is likely to occur. It would raise any rational eyebrow.

Jesus, what is it with you and third world despotisms...you think they're super-awesome or something.

Well for your first part, it maybe security reasons, even for power generation it's still a dangerous technology and Iran maybe afraid of insurgents, criminals or whatnot, or maybe they were afraid of international reaction thinking it was for weapons and not energy, and were afraid of bombs. I mean have you ever been to Lucas Heights in Australia, I haven't because I can't get anywhere near it without being arrested. The place doesn't enrich, it's doesn't make power, all the place does is make isotopes for cancer patients. I think Iran is entitled to secure it's investments, I mean what is stopping a pro-US suicide bomber from say hijacking a plane and crashing it into Natanz? That's probably why it is underground. Also the UN is nothing but a US tool these days, this is the same organisation that sat by and let the whole world supply Iraq with bombs, bullets, shells and gas to kill Iranians for nearly a decade, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't trust the UN.

And to your second point, hatred of Israel is not a new thing, nor is it too be taken so seriously. Even the Shah believed the US media was controlled by Jewish interests, and he hated Israel. The history of the wars etc etc is reason for this, and if you want to take political rhetoric at face value then your a fool.


your a tad over your head here kid.you assume col.powell lied when he has access to the best intelligence the word knows,our cia was wrong,the brits were wrong..everyone was wrong..lol...but you were correct.
get a fucking grip.
the war in iraq was sold to us on b.s. i agree..but the fact remains...saddam hid shit,quite well it seems from the un inspectors(we sold the shit to him)
so it's kinda hard to deny when the seller said i sold it..but alas thats politics..the russians sell iran nuke stuff cause they want loot...the french sell everyone everything cause they are whores....and you think iran is some beatan down great country....grow the fuck up...everyone is a bastard in this world,and geopolitically...lol...isreal is no different then anyone...other then that iraqn's leader calls for it's destruction and funds terrs to that aim.
you need to start reading better books.
the us is a whore and wants midlle east oil..think we are the only one?
do you really think the arabs would not hate jews if they were not there?
do you really think the russians are not helping iran with the bomb,no different the us helping saddam?
i bet you a million bucks that the us and french and the germans provided saddam alot of things...cause of his war with iran,and now it is pay back.

AP, you're reaching, you're really reaching. Why don't you just call it a night and give up.

I haven't seen any evidence yet.

The large number of nuclear plants that have been set up over there don't ring any bells for you? ;)

I haven't seen any evidence yet.

It is Iran's resposibility to prove to the rest of the world that they are not producing weapons-grade material, not the other way around. Your thread fails.

Especially when the IAEA could easily verify for the world that that's the case, probably at no charge. ;)

Alright, I think I have heard too many times on NSG that Iran is building nuclear weapons as a matter of fact, when clearly the evidence is comparable to Powell telling the assembly about rail mounted chemical labs yada yada. So peoples, if you want anyone to believe that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, please I invite people to post the clear and incontrovertible evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Iran is developing nuclear weapons and not just enriching for energy.

Hurry up, and if I catch anyone on this forum saying it as a matter of fact again, I will refer you to this thread.

It is Iran's resposibility to prove to the rest of the world that they are not producing weapons-grade material, not the other way around. Your thread fails.

Pity, I thought BAAWA had returned.

http://hottopstx.com/images/the%20bitch%20is%20back.jpg

If only. :(

It is Iran's resposibility to prove to the rest of the world that they are not producing weapons-grade material, not the other way around. Your thread fails.

BS.

The US and their cronies are the ones going after Iran about it, therefore they have to prove it. Innocent until proven guilty, the burden is on the US.

BS.

The US and their cronies are the ones going after Iran about it, therefore they have to prove it. Innocent until proven guilty, the burden is on the US.
Sorry, no. You are wrong. Not gonna go back and forth with you on this. *needs linky to the table tennis lolcats*

Their leader seems to think it's a fact. :p

Heh, I remember another beloved "badboy" to the US seeming to think that "ve vill bury you" was also a fact. Let's just start assuming every politician tells nothing but unbiased, objective facts now shall we. ;)

Heh, I remember another beloved "badboy" to the US seeming to think that "ve vill bury you" was also a fact. Let's just start assuming every politician tells nothing but unbiased, objective facts now shall we. ;)

Exactly. I think people need to define between a politician stirring popular support with rhetoric and their actual intension. That kind of extreme logic can go to bad places.

Discounting the rhetoric of the Iranian leadership.

Anything beyond x number of centrifuges is excessive for Iran's domestic energy needs, especially if they're used in a cascade.

Massive, industrial scale underground construction projects at known nuclear sites, yet entirely without the usual accoutrements of a nuclear power facility.

The levels of state secrecy associated with the development of these associated nuclear projects. It's not like the technology in use is any sort of a secret to anyone, so why try to keep it secret if you're trying to achieve an open process to provide your people with electric power?

Maybe because you don't want Israel to blow the fuck out of it like they did with Iraq?

Maybe because you don't want Israel to blow the fuck out of it like they did with Iraq?

Then why be so secret? Allow the UN to do everything and if Israel attacks it, Israel will get shunned by the international community.

Then why aren't Nuclear power plants all over the world underground?

Because not all countries on this planet have unfriendly neighbours that could wipe out their expensive installations with reasonably simple missiles if they were above ground.

"Israel will get shunned by the international community"

I bet Iran would find that really comforting having lost years of work and probably a few lives.

"Israel will get shunned by the international community"

I bet Iran would find that really comforting having lost years of work and probably a few lives.

I would imagine if that happened Iran would unload their vast missile stockpiles on Tel Aviv.

I would imagine if that happened Iran would unload their vast missile stockpiles on Tel Aviv.

yay, attacking a military facility gets avenged with an attack on a civilian city. oh wait, Israel is an occupying force! they are all guilty!

Iran would get bombed like no one has ever seen, probably by Israel/US forces.

Then why be so secret? Allow the UN to do everything and if Israel attacks it, Israel will get shunned by the international community.

You really have no idea of what happened in Iran for the past few decades, have you ?
Iran did give substantial openness, to the point that it was the most NPT abiding country on this planet (which sadly enough does not mean it actually obeyed it perfectly). It was "rewarded" by having every single thing triple checked, having inspectors everywhere, being obstructed whenever they attempted to build domestic nuclear powerplants and being generally humiliated.
At the same time next door neighbour Israel could do what it wanted with no sanctions. Which has lead to Israel now possessing nukes. For which the countries that aided Israel (mainly France and the USA) have not been punished, despite it being a flagrant NPT violation.

I do not know for certain if Iran wants to contruct nuclear weapons or not. I personally think it does. I do however completely understand their unwillingness to continue with the whole "complying to inspectors" and "giving openness" concepts even if they only wish to make commercial plants.

yay, attacking a military facility gets avenged with an attack on a civilian city. oh wait, Israel is an occupying force! they are all guilty!

Iran would get bombed like no one has ever seen, probably by Israel/US forces.

If Israel strikes first, no matter how minor the attack is, Iran is entitled to respond in any way it wishes. Are you stupid or something, do you honestly think the Iranian people are going to sit there take it while Israel bombs them, well, do you? No, they would respond with all the military strength they have, and they would be justified in doing so. If Israel tried to destroy Natanz, they deserve to have Tel Aviv leveled.

If Israel strikes first, no matter how minor the attack is, Iran is entitled to respond in any way it wishes. Are you stupid or something, do you honestly think the Iranian people are going to sit there take it while Israel bombs them, well, do you? No, they would respond with all the military strength they have, and they would be justified in doing so. If Israel tried to destroy Natanz, they deserve to have Tel Aviv leveled.


Natanz is a city. The nuclear facility there, which is the target, is not. With the precision munitions that Israel possesses, there would be few civi casualties.

You're saying that hundreds of thousands of people should die (which may or may not support the strike in the first place) for the destruction of a nuclear weapon facility. Its kind of like saying that the US bombed terror targets, so the victims of 9-11 were deserving of there deaths.

Natanz is a city. The nuclear facility there, which is the target, is not. With the precision munitions that Israel possesses, there would be few civi casualties.

You're saying that hundreds of thousands of people should die (which may or may not support the strike in the first place) for the destruction of a nuclear weapon facility. Its kind of like saying that the US bombed terror targets, so the victims of 9-11 were deserving of there deaths.

Well as you say, 9/11 was a shot in war that the US started a long time ago, so thats to say that the US proceeded with such policies etc accepting the risk, the US government brought 9/11 on their own people.

Well as you say, 9/11 was a shot in war that the US started a long time ago, so thats to say that the US proceeded with such policies etc accepting the risk, the US government brought 9/11 on their own people.

The US hardly shot first in the making of terrorism.

Way before 9-11, was the Iran embassy hostage situation, which many consider to be the starting point of modern Islamic terrorism.

The US hardly shot first in the making of terrorism.

Way before 9-11, was the Iran embassy hostage situation, which many consider to be the starting point of modern Islamic terrorism.

No, the starting point was US/Anglo imperialism in the ME, pilfering of natural oil revenues by foreign corporate interests, military interventions to set up puppet states and support of the regime occupying Jerusalem. You should really enlighten yourself regarding the history of US interference in Iran for oil etc, start with wiki and move foward with books, you may learn something more than a Dubya speech would tell you.

No, the starting point was US/Anglo imperialism in the ME, pilfering of natural oil revenues by foreign corporate interests, military interventions to set up puppet states and support of the regime occupying Jerusalem. You should really enlighten yourself regarding the history of US interference in Iran for oil etc, start with wiki and move foward with books, you may learn something more than a Dubya speech would tell you.

European powers colonized the ME, not the US.

That oil money and industry has brought MANY ME nations to great success. Qatar, UAE, Dubai, and for the most part Saudi Arabia. Without that cashflow, those countries would be the way they were before the 20th century which was very poor and mostly insignificant to any international matters.

European powers colonized the ME, not the US.

That oil money and industry has brought MANY ME nations to great success. Qatar, UAE, Dubai, and for the most part Saudi Arabia. Without that cashflow, those countries would be the way they were before the 20th century which was very poor and mostly insignificant to any international matters.

It's exploitation, clear and simple. Why do you think Eisenhower organized the overthrow of a democratic Iranian government to put a puppet repressive monarchy in place, oil. See the other thread. Opposition to the US and such attacks are justified.

If Israel strikes first, no matter how minor the attack is, Iran is entitled to respond in any way it wishes. Are you stupid or something, do you honestly think the Iranian people are going to sit there take it while Israel bombs them, well, do you? No, they would respond with all the military strength they have, and they would be justified in doing so. If Israel tried to destroy Natanz, they deserve to have Tel Aviv leveled.

I see. Can I take it that you also supported Israel's disproportionate response to Hezbollah? They had the right to "respond in any way they wished", yes?

So basically you Ahmadinejad to come to your house and tell you in person that Iran has a Nuclear weapons program? Or perhaps you would like a guided tour of the facilities?


Would that be included - pre-booked- in the price of the package, or is it a locally bookable optional excursion? And do the rooms have air-conditioning....

Then why be so secret? Allow the UN to do everything and if Israel attacks it, Israel will get shunned by the international community.


O, so we're a comedian now....

I don't like the idea of Iran having the bomb but I don't think we can do much about it. Bombing wouldn't work, because even if the facilities were destroyed (unlikely) the scientists and the knowledge they've acquired would survive. Building a bomb would also become a higher priority for Iran in the wake of an attack so airstrikes might actually speed up the process.