NationStates Jolt Archive

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/06/15/tsang.population.reut/index.html

HONG KONG, China (Reuters) -- Hong Kong's population must grow for the city to be competitive, and Chief Executive Donald Tsang thinks 10 million people could live here comfortably -- an increase of more than 40 percent, the Financial Times said Friday.

The former British colony on China's southern coast is home to just under 7 million people and it already boasts some of the most densely populated areas on earth.

"We must not allow the population to age and then shrink. We must grow in order to be competitive," Tsang told the newspaper in an interview published on Friday.

"We have the fundamentals, like New York and London, to create a global financial center and a reasonably good living for 10 million people here."

Hong Kong needed to boost immigration and education, and invest in infrastructure, Tsang said.

The Asian financial hub returned to Chinese rule in July 1997, and less than two years later Beijing, which has ultimate say over the city's affairs, ruled that children of parents with the right of abode in Hong Kong did not enjoy the same right.

Had the Chinese parliament not weighed in on the issue, hundreds of thousands of people living in China would have been eligible to come to Hong Kong.

Currently, the city accepts 150 immigrants from mainland China per day. It has a low fertility rate, and Tsang told the newspaper he would be happy to see Hong Kong's population maintained at 7-7.5 million by the end of his term in five years.

In addition to population growth, Tsang said Hong Kong needed to "move up the governance scale so that we are in the same rank as New York and London, distancing ourselves completely from the likes of Singapore or Shanghai or everybody else where they are still very much a territorial market."

Singapore this year announced plans to raise its population by a similar percentage over the next decade to 6.5 million, it said.

:(

Wait, what? Potato Factory is advocating immigration? :eek:

I'm pretty sure Western leaders know that their populations are going to shrink without massive immigration, and are letting in large numbers accordingly. Not much different than what they're trying to do in Hong Kong. ;)

Yeah, but Hong Kong is Chinese, and they're letting in Chinese people.

Is there any way that the West can stay Western without dying off?

I'm pretty sure Western leaders know that their populations are going to shrink without massive immigration, and are letting in large numbers accordingly. Not much different than what they're trying to do in Hong Kong. ;)

Wait, what? Potato Factory is advocating immigration? :eek:

Sure, from other Western countries. Any with a + birthrate?

Sure, from other Western countries. Any with a + birthrate?

Note that the article said nothing about what countries Hong Kong supports immigration from.

Hong Kong needed to boost immigration and education, and invest in infrastructure, Tsang said.

The Asian financial hub returned to Chinese rule in July 1997, and less than two years later Beijing, which has ultimate say over the city's affairs, ruled that children of parents with the right of abode in Hong Kong did not enjoy the same right.

Had the Chinese parliament not weighed in on the issue, hundreds of thousands of people living in China would have been eligible to come to Hong Kong.

Currently, the city accepts 150 immigrants from mainland China per day. It has a low fertility rate, and Tsang told the newspaper he would be happy to see Hong Kong's population maintained at 7-7.5 million by the end of his term in five years.

No mention that they're only advocating Chinese immigration.

Yeah, but Hong Kong is Chinese, and they're letting in Chinese people.

Is there any way that the West can stay Western without dying off?

My guess would be, no. But we'll be recognizably Western for the next few generations, so it doesn't really affect you and me. ;)

Sure, from other Western countries. Any with a + birthrate?

Can you think of any? Utah is one - it's a *part* of a country, after all. :p

Now why don't any WESTERN leaders think this way?
Many do. The role of Immigration in the UK's economy is becoming a fact of life. The problem is that, unlike Hong Kong, which is a relatively small state, we do not have the infrastructure to properly deal with it on a national scale. We're a capitalist nation, and as such we're required to let the individuals sort it out for themselves.

It's not that we need people to fill jobs in our instance; it's that we have jobs, we have people, but not enough regulation or state control to make the directed assignment between the two that could be done in Hong Kong.

They're gonna take it over ... them and India. Not their fault, our greed ...........................................and stupidity. Like when Henry Ford went over to Japan.. I think it was.. and showed them how to set up an assembly line to produce cars. I mean I know they would've either learned it themselves, or sent someone over to get info eventually.. but damn! Going to them and purposely showing them? That's just stupid. And basically this is nearly the same thing.. except instead of just showing them.. we're giving them. And it's not with the intent to help these folk.. it's with the intent to save/make the big shots/stock holders money. So don't blame them. Not their fault. They didn't steal it. We gave it away.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/06/15/tsang.population.reut/index.html



:(

Well, in America for instance, people are to worried about them takn' ar' jerbs. You know, the lowing paying jerbs that there are plenty of, and not many people want to do anyway, but they're our jerbs anyway.

But meh.

Damn, did I get off topic? I swear I started on it. lol

:confused:
What? What are you on about?

LOL I replied to myself before I saw this. I got off topic. hehe. I got off on the sending jobs over seas bit. Somehow. What he was talking about somehow clicked it off in my head. I'm buzzed .. but speaking my mind hehe.. although in the wrong thread. :)

Yeah, but Hong Kong is Chinese, and they're letting in Chinese people.

Is there any way that the West can stay Western without dying off?

Well, Germany is currently importing people from Russia, if that's what you mean.

They're gonna take it over ... them and India. Not their fault, our greed ...........................................and stupidity. Like when Henry Ford went over to Japan.. I think it was.. and showed them how to set up an assembly line to produce cars. I mean I know they would've either learned it themselves, or sent someone over to get info eventually.. but damn! Going to them and purposely showing them? That's just stupid. And basically this is nearly the same thing.. except instead of just showing them.. we're giving them. And it's not with the intent to help these folk.. it's with the intent to save/make the big shots/stock holders money. So don't blame them. Not their fault. They didn't steal it. We gave it away.

:confused:
What? What are you on about?

Well, Germany is currently importing people from Russia, if that's what you mean.

Not a terrible idea, but I thought Russia had it's own problems with birthrates.

Sure, from other Western countries. Any with a + birthrate?
Sure, the United States. Of course this is due to the current wave of non-western immigrants coming in and having babies, but hey, it is a +rate and growing quickly.

Not a terrible idea, but I thought Russia had it's own problems with birthrates.

Well, starting ghettos of non-German speaking, hyper-conservative, xenophobic welfare recipients really does sound like something you'd approve of.

Well, starting ghettos of non-German speaking, hyper-conservative, xenophobic welfare recipients really does sound like something you'd approve of.

As opposed to non-Western immigrants, who... start ghettos of non-German speaking, hyper-conservative, xenophobic welfare recipients.

As opposed to non-Western immigrants, who... start ghettos of non-German speaking, hyper-conservative, xenophobic welfare recipients.

Not quite. As a foreign citizen, you're not entitled to welfare in Germany.
As a Russian "Spaetaussiedler", you are.

Not quite. As a foreign citizen, you're not entitled to welfare in Germany.
As a Russian "Spaetaussiedler", you are.

How are they foreign citizens? They're German citizens, aren't they?

How are they foreign citizens? They're German citizens, aren't they?

Which of the two? The Russians or the "non-Westerners"?

Which of the two? The Russians or the "non-Westerners"?

Non-Westerners.

Non-Westerners.

No. There is no legal way to become a German citizen unless you either have German ancestors, marry a German (and then the porceedings are costly and lengthy), or are born in the country and grew up there. The last bit is fairly new legislation, before that one of your parents had to be German before you were eligible.
Immigrants have virtually no option whatsoever of ever becoming German citizens.

The Russians, however, usually use the loophole of having German ancestry (of the "300 years back, one of my ancestors owned a German shepard dog" kind), and are entiteled to immediate citizenship, welfare, and an additional sum to "help them get started in the new country".

No. There is no legal way to become a German citizen unless you either have German ancestors, marry a German (and then the porceedings are costly and lengthy), or are born in the country and grew up there. The last bit is fairly new legislation, before that one of your parents had to be German before you were eligible.
Immigrants have virtually no option whatsoever of ever becoming German citizens.

The Russians, however, usually use the loophole of having German ancestry (of the "300 years back, one of my ancestors owned a German shepard dog" kind), and are entiteled to immediate citizenship, welfare, and an additional sum to "help them get started in the new country".

You gotta be Saweet to be a German. I can't really blame them tho. But why is it I read about Germans bitching about immigrants? Is it that you can enter, live, work etc.. but you will never be actually German? That's exploit unless Germany needs it.

Also, question , sine you seem to know a lot about Germany. Do they have the thing where say.. an immigrant comes in.. and wants to start their own business.. does Germany give them the money to help start the business and give them so many years of a tax break during the start up of said business?

You gotta be Saweet to be a German. I can't really blame them tho. But why is it I read about Germans bitching about immigrants? Is it that you can enter, live, work etc.. but you will never be actually German? That's exploit unless Germany needs it.

Germany used to have a drastic need for labour force back in the 1960s through to the 1980s. To solve the problem, Germany invited workers from poorer countries (the initiative started in Italy, and was subsequently extended to Spain, then Portugal and lastly Turkey) to come over to work.
The German government had expected those workers to come over for a few years, work, live in specially provided ghetto blocks, and then go back. In the begining, that's what most of them did. But more and more stayed, some started bringing their families with them (immediate family only, though, that was all German law allowed), or started families in Germany. There were no restriction as to where people had to work, so a good few of them stopped working in the factories and opened small businesses and restaurants.
Many of them have been living in Germany for 40 years, having raised their children there and now raising their grandchildren. But German law has no option for immigrants acquiring citizenship.

Yes, it is exploitation of people. And it's also the reason why there is no immigration of highly-skilled people into Germany (they can get citizenship in virtually every other country they could go, so Germany is not really attractive in that respect).

Also, question , sine you seem to know a lot about Germany. Do they have the thing where say.. an immigrant comes in.. and wants to start their own business.. does Germany give them the money to help start the business and give them so many years of a tax break during the start up of said business?

I am German, living in Ireland.
I'm not really sure anybody gets tax breaks for starting up businesses in Germany, I'll have to look it up. Would be the first thing I hear about that.

No. There is no legal way to become a German citizen unless you either have German ancestors, marry a German (and then the porceedings are costly and lengthy), or are born in the country and grew up there.

Cool, it's almost like an exclusive club. One that I can get into.

Cool, it's almost like an exclusive club. One that I can get into.

And one that I will hopefully leave soon. That country is fucked for years to come.
You'll fit right in with all the other people who claim to be German because of their ancestry, but who've got less of a clue about Germany than most of the German Turks.

Europe has the same problem as Hong Kong -- studies show that the population pretty much peaked and will shrink noticably in the upcoming fifty years or so -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:World_population_evolution.png

You'll fit right in with all the other people who claim to be German because of their ancestry, but who've got less of a clue about Germany than most of the German Turks.

Hey, I don't claim it, I am it. If you don't like it, take it up with my ancestors.

Germany used to have a drastic need for labour force back in the 1960s through to the 1980s. To solve the problem, Germany invited workers from poorer countries (the initiative started in Italy, and was subsequently extended to Spain, then Portugal and lastly Turkey) to come over to work.
The German government had expected those workers to come over for a few years, work, live in specially provided ghetto blocks, and then go back. In the begining, that's what most of them did. But more and more stayed, some started bringing their families with them (immediate family only, though, that was all German law allowed), or started families in Germany. There were no restriction as to where people had to work, so a good few of them stopped working in the factories and opened small businesses and restaurants.
Many of them have been living in Germany for 40 years, having raised their children there and now raising their grandchildren. But German law has no option for immigrants acquiring citizenship.

Yes, it is exploitation of people. And it's also the reason why there is no immigration of highly-skilled people into Germany (they can get citizenship in virtually every other country they could go, so Germany is not really attractive in that respect).

I know I sounded like I was disrespecting Germany, but really I wasn't. I was reflecting my anger of my country into .. asking of yours. Here immigrants can come in .. get money to create a business and then get a tax break for about 7 years. A citizen can't do that.. as far as I've seen personally. Watch someone come in here with all sorts of links.. and possibly some of these potential .. current business owners can check it out.. but I don't care what they show.. the favor is to the foreigners.

You said there wasn't many 'skilled' laborers attracted to Germany. Germany shouldn't need it. German has never been short of skilled workers. Engineers, Physics (all the freakin sciences), Medical, Architects, Industrial machinists (a skill long gone today, unless you happen to find an old school machinery business and apprentice it there, or from an old schooler .. or from years of experience actually running them machines.. I'm not talking about a CNC machine... don't push a button on a CNC machine and claim you are a machinist.. you are a button pusher) ...along with sweden, france etc. If they don't have what it takes for this now.. they have either been made lazy (no necessity), dumbed down (TV) or I'm sorry to say inbred with dumbasses.

Right now, you are not.
You never lived there, you weren't born there, you don't speak the language, you don't know the culture and you don't have a German passport (which is in fact the only difference between you and the Russians.) So, no, you are at the moment by no definition German.

I think you just killed his hard-on.

Hey, I don't claim it, I am it. If you don't like it, take it up with my ancestors.

Right now, you are not.
You never lived there, you weren't born there, you don't speak the language, you don't know the culture and you don't have a German passport (which is in fact the only difference between you and the Russians.) So, no, you are at the moment by no definition German.

Right now, you are not.
You never lived there, you weren't born there, you don't speak the language, you don't know the culture and you don't have a German passport (which is in fact the only difference between you and the Russians.) So, no, you are at the moment by no definition German.

Hey, I lived there. I lived there for, like, six months.

Also, I'm German by ethnicity. Says so on the Australian census.

You said there wasn't many 'skilled' laborers attracted to Germany. Germany shouldn't need it. German has never been short of skilled workers. Engineers, Physics (all the freakin sciences), Medical, Architects, Industrial machinists (a skill long gone today, unless you happen to find an old school machinery business and apprentice it there, or from an old schooler .. or from years of experience actually running them machines.. I'm not talking about a CNC machine... don't push a button on a CNC machine and claim you are a machinist.. you are a button pusher) ...along with sweden, france etc. If they don't have what it takes for this now.. they have either been made lazy (no necessity), dumbed down (TV) or I'm sorry to say inbred with dumbasses.

Germany is currently in dire need of skilled workers. Contrary to reputation, German schools are way below the standards of most other European countries, the universities are overcrowded and there is a trend for educated people to leave.

They tried to introduce a sort of Green Card system a while back, aimed specifically at India, in an effort to get good IT people into the country. I don't remember how many cards they offered, but they were all limited to 5 years, and it was clear from the start that after that, there would be no option to get citizenship, or to even extend the card. And German politicians were surprised that only about 10% of those cards found any takers ... :rolleyes:

I think you just killed his hard-on.

Heh... and I can't even claim it was unintentional...

I just wonder how someone who emigrated to another country slags off immigrants into his country of origin.

So it's ok for you to move to booming celtic tiger Ireland, but it's not ok for a Russian to legally move to Germany?

(German living in the UK here).

Western fertility rates are so low because of the large daily wealth transfers from the young to the old. The third world doesn't do that, so they have high fertility rates.

And contrary to popular belief, there is no shortage of skilled workers in the west. There is a huge concern about wage inflation though, i.e., cheap skilled labour, so immigration is the order of the day. Actually, if labour was given the same freedom of movement and rights as capital, I have no doubt that governments would soon lose interest in it.

I know I sounded like I was disrespecting Germany, but really I wasn't. I was reflecting my anger of my country into .. asking of yours. Here immigrants can come in .. get money to create a business and then get a tax break for about 7 years. A citizen can't do that.. as far as I've seen personally. Watch someone come in here with all sorts of links.. and possibly some of these potential .. current business owners can check it out.. but I don't care what they show.. the favor is to the foreigners.
Neither can immigrants into the US. Sorry, you just fell for yet ANOTHER urban legend.

http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/immigrants.asp

I just wonder how someone who emigrated to another country slags off immigrants into his country of origin.

So it's ok for you to move to booming celtic tiger Ireland, but it's not ok for a Russian to legally move to Germany?

(German living in the UK here).

Oh, it's perfectly ok for a Russian to emmigrate to Germany. I don't have the slightest problem with anybody immigrating into Germany, but I think it should be fair for all. If Russians get offered citizenship with all the attached benefits straight away, so should all the Turks. And everybody else, for that matter.

I'm not slagging of immigrants, I'm definitely pro-immigrant. But I'm also for equal rights for all.

An admirable policy. Quite unlike that in the west, given thst, instead of simply compelling our unemployed to take jobs, we welcome immigrants. Wonderful idea that.:rolleyes:

Hey, I lived there. I lived there for, like, six months.

Also, I'm German by ethnicity. Says so on the Australian census.

Boy, I lived here for 3.5 years now and am not yet Irish. It takes a bit more than an extended holiday.
I lived in Canada for 9 month and am not Canadian.

...

I'm not slagging of immigrants, I'm definitely pro-immigrant. But I'm also for equal rights for all.

I probably got you wrong.

I agree with you. Citizenship is thrown at Spätaussiedler with no attachment to Germany whatsoever, while a Turkish worker and taxpayer who has lived here for 40 years is red taped beyond sanity. It's just not right.

Germany is currently in dire need of skilled workers. Contrary to reputation, German schools are way below the standards of most other European countries, the universities are overcrowded and there is a trend for educated people to leave.

They tried to introduce a sort of Green Card system a while back, aimed specifically at India, in an effort to get good IT people into the country. I don't remember how many cards they offered, but they were all limited to 5 years, and it was clear from the start that after that, there would be no option to get citizenship, or to even extend the card. And German politicians were surprised that only about 10% of those cards found any takers ... :rolleyes:

"German schools are way below the standards of most other European countries" -- Why is that? School Board, State? Other?

I'm not expecting you to answer these questions, I'm just asking what I feel makes sense to ask. From what I gather Germany is in a stranglehold socially... wouldn't surprise me if that had something or a lot to do with more things.. since it will show everywhere.. colleges etc. .

Look back in history and see how many of the greats actually learned their skill in school. Not many. You learn it from doing it. Being taught by a practicing skillsman, not a freakin teacher. Oh as far as India go, smart folk. Some of the best doctors I've known over here have been from India. Not sure if it was because they were happy as hell to be here.. or that they were happy as hell to be practicing what they went to school for .. here. I'd almost always take an Indian doc over an american doc. We (americans) are too spoiled in general. IMO. Most of the doctors I've had dealings with are more concerned with the drug companies.. i.e. money. Got 70 years olds running back and forth in the heat and cold to them for a pill they been taking for 2 years.. claiming .. have to keep checking your blood lvl of this or that.. bull shit.. they are lining their pockets.

I've yet to see what the difference is between Hong Kong's policy and that of 'western countries' (which don't have the same immigration policy anyway). I don't see anywhere in the article which suggested reducing immigration (they want to expand it) and specifying that only Chinese would be welcome.

So, what's the point?

Neither can immigrants into the US. Sorry, you just fell for yet ANOTHER urban legend.

http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/immigrants.asp

What did i say? I knew someone was gonna come in with some bs saying it wasn't so. Sorry my dad ran a company next to one that did.

I've yet to see what the difference is between Hong Kong's policy and that of 'western countries' (which don't have the same immigration policy anyway). I don't see anywhere in the article which suggested reducing immigration (they want to expand it) and specifying that only Chinese would be welcome.

So, what's the point?

All I read was "Hong Kong wants larger population" and I assumed they were promoting pro-creation, which Western countries aren't.

"German schools are way below the standards of most other European countries" -- Why is that? School Board, State? Other?

I'm not expecting you to answer these questions, I'm just asking what I feel makes sense to ask. From what I gather Germany is in a stranglehold socially... wouldn't surprise me if that had something or a lot to do with more things.. since it will show everywhere.. colleges etc. .

Look back in history and see how many of the greats actually learned their skill in school. Not many. You learn it from doing it. Being taught by a practicing skillsman, not a freakin teacher.

Well, you can't really learn architecture through trial and error, can you? To name one example ;) And I wouldn't be too happy if that's how doctors got trained, either.

Why are the schools so bad? Very good question, but I don't think there's a simple answer.
I think one problem is that Germany in the past few decades had a tendency to make education as easy as possible, which has lowered the overall standards and resulted in a high number of people with degrees who should in fact not be allowed to practice their trade (whatever it might be) due to serious lack of knowledge.
And most of the professional produced by the system that way seem to be teachers. If you finish grammar school in Germany you're sort of expected to go to university. And if you've got no clue what to do there, you study to become a teacher. And underqualified teachers are then being let loose on the next generation of school kids...

Another problem is that schooling and education are in the responsibilty of the Laender (sort of the equvalent of the individual states in the US), it's not in any way centralised. Some Laender will ask you to spend 12 years in school to get the Abitur, others will take 13. Some Laender centralised their education and most importantly their exams on their own (such as Bavaria and Saxony), and they're as a result doing a bit better than the rest. In other states, teachers get guidelines on what topics need to be done, but as they themselves will put together the exams for their classes, they're not really obliged to follow those guidelines.

I guess there are more factors, but these two are the main ones I think.

Neither can immigrants into the US. Sorry, you just fell for yet ANOTHER urban legend.

http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/immigrants.asp

Also.. that isn't even the same as what I was saying.. I didn't say the received money from the government as far as a 'holiday' tax (first time ever hearing about this actually). .. or received cars ..what else does it say apartments.. clothes!!! .. etc etc .. I said they didn't have to PAY taxes on their income.

An admirable policy. Quite unlike that in the west, given thst, instead of simply compelling our unemployed to take jobs, we welcome immigrants. Wonderful idea that.:rolleyes:
How about we strip the funds from unemployment benefits and job-seekers allowance and give them to the education system? Then, if we make education universally free, job seekers will have every incentive to go to school and learn new skills or study new fields.

What did i say? I knew someone was gonna come in with some bs saying it wasn't so. Sorry my dad ran a company next to one that did.
Sorry, the IRS disagrees with you.

Resident Aliens

A resident alien's income is generally subject to tax in the same manner as a U.S. citizen. If you are a resident alien, you must report all interest, dividends, wages, or other compensation for services, income from rental property or royalties, and other types of income on your U.S. tax return. You must report these amounts whether from sources within or outside the United States.
http://www.irs.gov/publications/p519/ch02.html#d0e1769

It's a myth, and a bad one at that.

Also.. that isn't even the same as what I was saying.. I didn't say the received money from the government as far as a 'holiday' tax (first time ever hearing about this actually). .. or received cars ..what else does it say apartments.. clothes!!! .. etc etc .. I said they didn't have to PAY taxes on their income.
Read that again, it's stating that there is a wide range of myths about tax holidays or freebies that immigrants get when they come into the US (Or Australia or the UK), NONE of which is true.

Now do you understand?

Everyone is taxed. It would be awfully nice if they weren't taxed, but given I've had to do my wife's tax return for the US for the last couple of years (She's a Japanese national), I can say with certainty that immigrants have to pay taxes on their incomes.

Heck, I have to go through the rigmarole of taxes every year and I live and work in Japan. The US doesn't care, it taxes everyone.

Sorry, the IRS disagrees with you.


http://www.irs.gov/publications/p519/ch02.html#d0e1769

It's a myth, and a bad one at that.


You believe what you read on line or what you see in real life? I didn't even read what you posted, because I know you are disagreeing with everything I'm saying. Come here to Winston-Salem NC and talk to all these freakin mexicans that are buying property with cash on the barrel head 130k.. tell them they pay taxes.. they'll give you the finger(well hell nevermind they are probably drug dealers -- ofcourse they'd give you the finger they are breakin the law anyway).

But the business I was specifically talking about next to my fathers business was an asian restaurant. This man got the money to start his business and did not pay taxes. And actually I have no freakin problem with people like him. Him and his family were good people. And I'd bet my own money that if it was a loan he'd have that payment ready before hand. No way he'd jip on it. It's the assholes I mentioned above that I got a problem with. And it's basically the same .. or more so with them.. they are more than likely here illegally.. or else they wouldn't be paying thousands of dollars in cash flat out. They definatly pay no taxes.. their kids get free health care, that taxpayers who pay for their own health care pay for along with everything else legal working people pay for. And please don't even try to pull up a link that says that's bull shit too.. I go the same damn place they do because I'm poor as fuck. Only difference with me is .. I have to prove I'm poor.. all they gotta do is walk in looking mexican. But all the freakin taxes I pay in.. I should have health care.. but alas I do not.

Also.. I think it was CTOAN who posted that thread about the proffesor here in NC who switched to soy bean oil.. and got fined for it.. cause he wasn't buying gas. And that the Gas tax is what covers the maintenance of the roads. Umm ok.. so we got Gas tax taking care of our roads .. the lottery is taking care of our free education.. then what the fuck are we paying all this state tax for? To line their freakin pockets? Virginia has the lottery and doesnt have a state tax. Here in NC it's just as my sig says. You are taxed on every freakin thing possible... multiple times. You go to work, pay tax, buy a house, pay tax, pay tax all throughout the time you're mortgaging it, finally pay it off .. still pay tax on it every year.. and kiss your ass if you get taken into the city limits.. its triples. ... still paying taxes.. die!? O hell no you didn't just die.. states gonna take a whole big chunk of that paid off house that your dead ass has paid taxes on this whole damn time because you decided to actually leave it to your children!


Meh. I'm going to bed.

You believe what you read on line or what you see in real life?
See, there's this little thing called evidence to back up your claims. And within such evidence there is such a thing as trustworthiness and/or authority. Now, call me crazy, but Snopes.com has shown itself to be time and time again a well trusted source that researches and posts the results. But, the real point is that I posted from the Internal Revenue Service (AKA the IRS), the folks who are in charge of taxation within the United States of America. I would be willing to bet you buttons to dollars that they know what the hell they are talking about when it comes to tax issues as they wrote the tax issues. So, yes, I do trust them far more than a "shop near my dad's" story from a newbie on the forums from North Carolina.

I didn't even read what you posted, because I know you are disagreeing with everything I'm saying.
I foresee that you will have a lot of fun on this forum then. It might be a rather short stay however.

Come here to Winston-Salem NC and talk to all these freakin mexicans that are buying property with cash on the barrel head 130k.. tell them they pay taxes.. they'll give you the finger(well hell nevermind they are probably drug dealers -- ofcourse they'd give you the finger they are breakin the law anyway).
And this lovely rant has what to do with the price of beans?

But the business I was specifically talking about next to my fathers business was an asian restaurant. This man got the money to start his business and did not pay taxes.
And you know this, how? Are you his accountant? Did he show you his tax returns? Did the IRS walk though the town with a list of folks who don't have to pay taxes due to their immigration status?

And actually I have no freakin problem with people like him. Him and his family were good people. And I'd bet my own money that if it was a loan he'd have that payment ready before hand. No way he'd jip on it. It's the assholes I mentioned above that I got a problem with. And it's basically the same .. or more so with them.. they are more than likely here illegally.. or else they wouldn't be paying thousands of dollars in cash flat out.
And coming out of left field we have the unsubstaniated ranting for the evening. Let's giver 'er a warm NS-General welcome ladies and gents!

They definatly pay no taxes..
And how do you know?

their kids get free health care, that taxpayers who pay for their own health care pay for along with everything else legal working people pay for. And please don't even try to pull up a link that says that's bull shit too.. I go the same damn place they do because I'm poor as fuck. Only difference with me is .. I have to prove I'm poor.. all they gotta do is walk in looking mexican.
Again, how do you know?

But all the freakin taxes I pay in.. I should have health care.. but alas I do not.
Granted, but that's another thread for another day.

Meh. I'm going to bed.
Sleep well.

How about we strip the funds from unemployment benefits and job-seekers allowance and give them to the education system? Then, if we make education universally free, job seekers will have every incentive to go to school and learn new skills or study new fields.

Better idea; Privatise the NHS, cut all unemployment benefits for those able to work, and thus not only reduce taxation, but radically improve secondary and primary education, and subsidise tertiary education. Indeed, I could probably increase the size of the police force with the funds released as well.

Better idea; Privatise the NHS, cut all unemployment benefits for those able to work, and thus not only reduce taxation, but radically improve secondary and primary education, and subsidise tertiary education. Indeed, I could probably increase the size of the police force with the funds released as well.

Careful about overfunding your education system... that was part of what created Germany's problems at the moment.

All I read was "Hong Kong wants larger population" and I assumed they were promoting pro-creation, which Western countries aren't.

Hong Kong needed to boost immigration and education, and invest in infrastructure, Tsang said.
Nope.

Well, you can't really learn architecture through trial and error, can you? To name one example ;) And I wouldn't be too happy if that's how doctors got trained, either.

Why are the schools so bad? Very good question, but I don't think there's a simple answer.
I think one problem is that Germany in the past few decades had a tendency to make education as easy as possible, which has lowered the overall standards and resulted in a high number of people with degrees who should in fact not be allowed to practice their trade (whatever it might be) due to serious lack of knowledge.
And most of the professional produced by the system that way seem to be teachers. If you finish grammar school in Germany you're sort of expected to go to university. And if you've got no clue what to do there, you study to become a teacher. And underqualified teachers are then being let loose on the next generation of school kids...

Another problem is that schooling and education are in the responsibilty of the Laender (sort of the equvalent of the individual states in the US), it's not in any way centralised. Some Laender will ask you to spend 12 years in school to get the Abitur, others will take 13. Some Laender centralised their education and most importantly their exams on their own (such as Bavaria and Saxony), and they're as a result doing a bit better than the rest. In other states, teachers get guidelines on what topics need to be done, but as they themselves will put together the exams for their classes, they're not really obliged to follow those guidelines.

I guess there are more factors, but these two are the main ones I think.

[/quote] I think one problem is that Germany in the past few decades had a tendency to make education as easy as possible, which has lowered the overall standards and resulted in a high number of people with degrees who should in fact not be allowed to practice their trade (whatever it might be) due to serious lack of knowledge. /quote

I feel the same about many of our standards too. But.. I'm not suprised with it here..I am with Germany. :/

Possibly, small scaled architectures? Heck that old school game that was sorta like legos .. what's the name of it.. erector something.. That's better than nothing. Do they really not build anything in architecture studies? I mean the eye and geometry etc could just be scaled down.

Fass replied to someone who was talking about a nurse who kept missing their vein to get blood, that nurse went and got head nurse who . bam did it no problem.. He said about the less experienced nurse, how do you expect them to learn? Now me personally I would hope they could do it correctly right out of school. But I understand what he meant now. And actually.. you better believe your butt a surgeon .. on his first operation still considers himself in practice.. are you ever out of practice doing such a thing? Hope not. A teacher can tell you how all day long but it still takes actually doing the act. Put it this way.. would you rather have someone fresh out of school (6 or 8) years perform a certain surgery on you or someone who never went to school but has been successfully performing this surgery for 20 years? Extreme comparison, but I'd take the experienced no schooler. Unless I was wanting to be nice to the young person and let them 'practice' on me.

Better idea; Privatise the NHS,
That wouldn't leave us with any more money. We'd just have to pay healthcare premiums on top of current taxes, which would hit working and middle class Britons the hardest, and leave people without access to healthcare. In any case, the USA spends more of it's GDP on healthcare than the UK, and has a private system. If anything, privatisation needs to be reversed in the NHS.

cut all unemployment benefits for those able to work,
Even when we intentionally use unemployment to control inflation? There isn't a job for everybody that wants one, especially when interest rates are high.

and thus not only reduce taxation, but radically improve secondary and primary education, and subsidise tertiary education. Indeed, I could probably increase the size of the police force with the funds released as well.
I'd look at reversing expensive PFI deals, including city academies, in education, prisons and the NHS if you want to find more money for education/law and order. I'd also go as far as not replacing trident, withdrawing from Iraq, making National Insurance progressive, and a royal commission into the welfare system to judge if specific programmes are working; and whether they need replacing or abolishing.

Also, question , sine you seem to know a lot about Germany. Do they have the thing where say.. an immigrant comes in.. and wants to start their own business.. does Germany give them the money to help start the business and give them so many years of a tax break during the start up of said business?

You can get some sweet offers if you want to start a business in Germany, it all depends on where you want to setup. Certain specially designated areas (places where the economic situation is very bad) can get federal incentives, state incentives, and incentives from the town as well.

We were looking at starting a production facility in Germany and chose Ueckermunde (tiny little town on the coast near the Polish border). The federal and state governments were going to give us around 2 million euros and pay the salaries of all permanent employees for a year. The town offered to give us a really nice piece of industrial property for free as well as cover the cost of hooking up all utilities and whatever other little costs came up from locating there. They even offered us a house to use for a few months until I could find a place of my own.

These incentives are fantastic... in the short term. Tax rates are absurdly high, labor costs (after that first year) are pretty high too plus the fact that once you've hired someone it is difficult to fire them. Even with all those fantastic incentives (and it was a cute little town I would have liked living in) it simply was not worth it outside of the short term. The only way I would have considered actually doing it would be to start up and run for 6 years, then try to sell out after meeting the requirements for not having to refund the incentive money but before the high costs and taxation destroyed all profits. Hopefully the economy would picked up in 6 years so the property would be worth something, plus we might have been able to find someone who wanted the whole business before looking too closely and realizing that only the incentive money made it worth it.

Point being, Germany offers some crazy good incentives if you choose a real backwater place with a bad economy, but the legal and tax environments keep if from being feasible.

All I read was "Hong Kong wants larger population" and I assumed they were promoting pro-creation, which Western countries aren't.

So...you didn't actually read your own OP?

actually putting economics ahead of environment is the backward headedness that IS empairelling the human species and quite possibly the entire web of life on planet earth.

there is of course, much that can be done to keep us all comfortably numb as we collectively eat ourselves out of house and home.

but learning to do so in ways more environmentaly harmonious while, yes, reducing all human firtility without bias or exception accross the board, is what is needed. unless, of course, we prefer to passively accept the otherwise inevitable implosion of nature's cycles of renewal as human numbers and ways of life reach a critical point of overloading them. (as appears to be the case for those who are more interested in lining their own pockets then caring.)

=^^=
.../\...

Well, you can't really learn architecture through trial and error, can you? To name one example ;)

I thought this was funny, seeing as how one of history's most influential architects was a German who didn't even finish high school: Mies Van der Rohe.

Donald Tsang is an arse who just parrots whatever the PRC tells him to say.
He's a spineless gutless shite.

This is the man who claimed Hong Kongers aren't 'mature' enough to have universal suffrage. One of his lackeys (Ma Lik) even came out recently and stated that the Tiananmen square massacre wasn't one, as 'only' a few hundred died - and then even had the audacity to say, “ How could people say bodies were minced under the tanks? Has anybody tried mincing meat under tanks?” (I bet the relatives of those killed that way were overjoyed to hear their loved ones being referred to as 'mince meat')
Ma also questioned whether Gweilos (a racial insult for Caucasians) should be the ones to interpret the truth about Tiananmen. Great, eh? No-one's allowed to write history about China except the PRC. How mature, open and honest of him.
He then went on to say HK's insistence on NOT accepting the PRC's version of events was proof Hong Kong was "not mature enough" and thus Hong Kong lacked patriotism and national identity, and would thus not be ready for democracy until at least 2022.

Tsang is the man who said Hong Kong doesn't have a pollution problem because people are living so long.
No pollution problem:
http://www.the-eleven.com/~tjlegg/gallery/d/408-1/hongkong_2006may13.JPG
Of course not. Care to guess where 90+% of HK's pollution comes from? That's right - China, who just so happens to not want to admit to having a pollution problem.

The PRC is just wanting to follow it's normal route of overwhelming a place with numbers, so it can never be anything else but Chinese - check out what they're doing to Tibet as an example of this policy.

There's a lot of difference between Mainland Chinese and Hong Kong Chinese - language for one thing. So massive immigration from China would cause immense problems. And of course, there's the infrastructure, which is already under strain - HK is perhaps the most densely populated place on Earth. Only 1/4 of the area has people living on it, which means the population density is over 30 000 /sq km in Kowloon.
Anyone with 1/2 a brain would know this.
Tsang is just showing he's got a PRC hand up his butt spouting crap like this.

The irony of it all is him saying HK should be 10 mill. It's already close to that, once the illegal immigrants are counted.

Wait, what? Potato Factory is advocating immigration? :eek:

Sure, from other Western countries. Any with a + birthrate?

For Europe, you have Albania and... that's it.

Can you think of any? Utah is one - it's a *part* of a country, after all. :pwell its not fair because in Utah you can have threesomes , foursomes, the whole enchilada.. :D

yay for Polygamy. (yes I know its not legal anymore.. )

Sure, the United States. Of course this is due to the current wave of non-western immigrants coming in and having babies, but hey, it is a +rate and growing quickly.

Is Latin America really "non-western?" I mean it's hardly the communist East. Then again the whole East/West paradigm was silly to begin with.

At any rate, it's not good enough for TPF, because when he says "West" he really means "White."

At any rate, it's not good enough for TPF, because when he says "West" he really means "White."

While I agree with you on this, considering you both just got a warning for pissing at one another...perhaps you should avoid further confrontation for a while? I don't give a rat's arse about TPF, but I'd hate to see you get another ban.

All I read was "Hong Kong wants larger population" and I assumed they were promoting pro-creation, which Western countries aren't.

So you read the first line and started a thread to discuss an article you hadn't read espousing a view it didn't support?



Next time you have an idea for a thread, just let it go.

While I agree with you on this, considering you both just got a warning for pissing at one another...perhaps you should avoid further confrontation for a while? I don't give a rat's arse about TPF, but I'd hate to see you get another ban.

I'm not really doing anything but parroting his own viewpoints, as he has alluded to numerous times. I don't see why that would be banworthy. It's not like I'm making death threats to him, is it.

Germany is currently in dire need of skilled workers. Contrary to reputation, German schools are way below the standards of most other European countries, the universities are overcrowded and there is a trend for educated people to leave.

They tried to introduce a sort of Green Card system a while back, aimed specifically at India, in an effort to get good IT people into the country. I don't remember how many cards they offered, but they were all limited to 5 years, and it was clear from the start that after that, there would be no option to get citizenship, or to even extend the card. And German politicians were surprised that only about 10% of those cards found any takers ... :rolleyes:

I remember reading about a campaign by some right-wing politician with slogans like "Kinder not Inder" (something like that)...some of my friends working for Indian consulting companies avoid going to Germany unless pressured too much by their managers.

They're gonna take it over ... them and India. Not their fault, our greed ...........................................and stupidity. Like when Henry Ford went over to Japan.. I think it was.. and showed them how to set up an assembly line to produce cars. I mean I know they would've either learned it themselves, or sent someone over to get info eventually.. but damn! Going to them and purposely showing them? That's just stupid. And basically this is nearly the same thing.. except instead of just showing them.. we're giving them. And it's not with the intent to help these folk.. it's with the intent to save/make the big shots/stock holders money. So don't blame them. Not their fault. They didn't steal it. We gave it away.

Good lord. I doubt Ford went to Japan...but still...it's not like assembly line concept is a highly complex thing that would have taken years for anybody else to come up with in isolation.

Deming, OTOH, went to Japan and that's why Japan issues Deming award.

Btw, how many American companies manage to get Deming award anyways?

No. There is no legal way to become a German citizen unless you either have German ancestors, marry a German (and then the porceedings are costly and lengthy), or are born in the country and grew up there. The last bit is fairly new legislation, before that one of your parents had to be German before you were eligible.


How far back? Assuming that you can prove it is great-great grandparents acceptable or does it have to be grandparents or something?

I thought this was funny, seeing as how one of history's most influential architects was a German who didn't even finish high school: Mies Van der Rohe.

Which means as much as a hill of beans. I don't know about Germany, but in the US, you don't even learn a trade in college, much less high school. You learn a bunch of educative bullshit.

What did i say? I knew someone was gonna come in with some bs saying it wasn't so. Sorry my dad ran a company next to one that did.

And I am a purple dinosaur from your imagianation.... you need to back it up. Not all of NSG are stupid enough to believe anything you say, you will find people here are insistant on proof.

lol what's the point of this thread, silly potato factory :mp5: