NationStates Jolt Archive

Very simple. (poll coming)

I'd say that a joint EU/Pan-Arabic peace-enforcing mission would be the best option. The USA and Britain should stay out, they're seen as enemies by many Palestinians.

Very simple. (poll coming)

I'd say that a joint EU/Pan-Arabic peace-enforcing mission would be the best option. The USA and Britain should stay out, they're seen as enemies by many Palestinians.

I doubt Hamas would welcome you with open arms.

They've just won Gaza, and declared a true Islamic state.

They're executing the captured Fatah men one by one, in front of their families.

After the rout at the Preventive Security headquarters, some of the Hamas fighters kneeled outside, touching their foreheads to the ground in prayer. Others led Fatah gunmen out of the building, some shirtless or in their underwear, holding their arms in the air. Several of the Fatah men flinched as the crack of gunfire split the air.

A witness, who identified himself only as Amjad, said men were killed as their wives and children watched.

"They are executing them one by one," Amjad said in a telephone interview, declining to give his full name for fear of reprisals. "They are carrying one of them on their shoulders, putting him on a sand dune, turning him around and shooting."

Fatah officials said Hamas shot and killed seven of its fighters outside the Preventive Security building. A doctor at Shifa Hospital, said he examined two bodies that had been shot in the head at close range. The officials and the doctor spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisals.

Have fun, like we're having fun in Iraq!!

That actually sounds like a good idea, too bad the EU won't do shit.

Very simple. (poll coming)

I'd say that a joint EU/Pan-Arabic peace-enforcing mission would be the best option. The USA and Britain should stay out, they're seen as enemies by many Palestinians.

Palestinians see everyone as enemies, including other Palestinians.

What exactly is the Palestinian opinion of the EU? I didn't think it was all that stellar.

I doubt Hamas would welcome you with open arms.

Maybe, since the EU saved Lebanon's ass last summer, we gained some points. Some EU militaries are already manning the Gaza/Egypt borders.

They've just won Gaza, and declared a true Islamic state. They're executing the captured Fatah men one by one, in front of their families.
And this is not going to help Palestine, I think. Next move will be resuming the terror attacks on Israel, thus triggering a large-scale retaliation this time.

Have fun, like we're having fun in Iraq!
Will you get offended if I answer "fuck you"? ;)
Really, the two things are a bit different. 1) This wouldn't be an invasion. 2) Having UN/EU/Pan-Arab forces will also help protecting Palestinian civilians from Israeli retaliations. And Hamas knows that.

What exactly is the Palestinian opinion of the EU? I didn't think it was all that stellar.

It depends on the Palestinian faction, of course. Most Palestinians, though, were grateful for the EU economic help. It helped paying the teachers, some desalinisation plants, etc.
Don't you forget that they know they aren't going to get much help from other organisations, since the US can veto UN S.C. resolutions, and the Arabic countries aren't all that united.

Mahmoud Abbas and Ehud Olmert have appealed to Ban-Ki Moon to send a United Nations Peacekeeping force. I would support a UN mission recruited from Pan-Arab nations such as Indonesia, Bangladesh and Pakistan.

However, even if a mission is approved by the Security Council, it may take too long to assemble before the conflict spirals out of control.

Very simple. (poll coming)

I'd say that a joint EU/Pan-Arabic peace-enforcing mission would be the best option. The USA and Britain should stay out, they're seen as enemies by many Palestinians.
Wee-ell...

I'd say that an scandinavian peace-keeping force, combined with french and german troops, could work. It did in Libanon after the civil war there.

They've just won Gaza, and declared a true Islamic state.
Making things up again?

Wee-ell...

I'd say that an scandinavian peace-keeping force, combined with french and german troops, could work. It did in Libanon after the civil war there.


Making things up again?

Nope, it's Hamas' claim today that they have a true Islamic state now.

While what's left of Fatah would approve of scandinavians, and the Israelis would approve (because it means they won't have to deal with it), Hamas has no incentive to cooperate (in fact, they have every incentive to make it as nasty as Iraq currently is for any peacekeepers).

"We are telling our people that the past era has ended and will not return," Islam Shahawan, a spokesman for Hamas' militia, told Hamas radio. "The era of justice and Islamic rule have arrived."

Have fun, like we're having fun in Iraq!!
So you're saying that military intervention is not a valid strategy with a despotic regime established in power?

EDIT: Actually, that's pretty stupid on my part. Never mind!

Before the elections last year when Hamas won power, some smart commentators pointed out that if Hamas didn't win the election, they would probably just kill all the Fatah leaders and take over.

Before the elections last year when Hamas won power, some smart commentators pointed out that if Hamas didn't win the election, they would probably just kill all the Fatah leaders and take over.

Looks like it's happening in Gaza. The only reason Abbas and other Fatah leaders are alive is because they're in the West Bank.

The other Fatah members are apparently being led out and shot one by one in front of their families in Gaza.

You can't enforce peace.

But some well organized pie fights may be able to vent hostilties and resentments. *nod*

I really need a position in the U.N. *sigh*

You can't enforce peace.

Can I get an Amen?

Looks like it's happening in Gaza. The only reason Abbas and other Fatah leaders are alive is because they're in the West Bank.

The other Fatah members are apparently being led out and shot one by one in front of their families in Gaza.


Yeah....Well we'll read all about it over the next 48 hours. Not that I don't believe you. Its just that taking the word of one of the worst Islampohobic, Arab hating liar, distorter and exaggeraters we have here would be imprudent.

Yeah....Well we'll read all about it over the next 48 hours. Not that I don't believe you. Its just that taking the word of one of the worst Islampohobic, Arab hating liar, distorter and exaggeraters we have here would be imprudent.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4890240.html

After the rout at the security headquarters, some of the Hamas fighters knelt outside, touching their foreheads to the ground in prayer. Others led Fatah gunmen out of the building, some shirtless or in their underwear, holding their arms in the air. Several of the Fatah men flinched as the crack of gunfire split the air.

A witness, who identified himself only as Amjad, said men were killed as their wives and children watched.

"They are executing them one by one," Amjad, who lives in a building overlooking the Preventive Security complex, said by telephone. "They are carrying one of them on their shoulders, putting him on a sand dune, turning him around and shooting."

The killers ignored appeals from residents to spare the men's lives, said Amjad, who declined to give his full name, fearing reprisal.

I guess you'll have to read it now.

"We are telling our people that the past era has ended and will not return," Islam Shahawan, a spokesman for Hamas' militia, told Hamas radio. "The era of justice and Islamic rule have arrived."
It's probably true.


But I'm sorry, I simply don't believe you before you post dat link! You should know this by now...
You can't enforce peace.
It's been done before, it can be done again.

But only if the parties to this civil war is interested in it.

And seeing as Hamas have little support (around 20%) among the people in Gaza, there is still hope.

Have fun, like we're having fun in Iraq!!

And at the behest of some of the same crew that brought the world that debacle, too.....This is from January of this year.

Abbas was also miffed at the public discussion in the U.S. of Bush Administration plans to secure $86 million from U.S. Congress to arm forces loyal to Abbas for a looming battle with Hamas. According to one insider, Abbas had wanted this kept secret. "This has put us in more trouble with Hamas," griped one Abbas aide.


Rice also warned Abbas that the Bush Administration took a dim view of the Palestinian leader's proposed trip to Damascus for a meeting with Hamas's exiled leader Khaled Mashaal in a bid to pacify the near-civil war that has erupted in recent months between militants of Fatah and Hamas. Rice made it clear to Abbas, said one Palestinian source, that "she's worried Hamas will impose its conditions on Abbas."

Diana Buttu, a political consultant and former legal adviser to the PLO, adds: �They're not interested in solving the conflict in any meaningful way — just uttering nice slogans, that's it."

The view of Rice as being detached from the realities on the ground is underscored by a Palestinian professor who had previously dealt with Rice: "She thinks of big issues as small ones,� he says. "She believed that Israelis could wipe out Hizballah, and she believes — mistakenly — that Abbas can wipe out Hamas from Gaza and the West Bank."

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1578039,00.html

And at the behest of some of the same crew that brought the world that debacle, too.....This is from January of this year.

If Hamas and Fatah can't get along, and want to kill each other, who are we to get in between them?

Surely you don't want Bush intervening in something like that...

Seems to me that Palestine's little civil war is nearly over with now. I say let it run it's course, if it ends up dragging on then we separate them.

Seems to me that Palestine's little civil war is nearly over with now. I say let it run it's course, if it ends up dragging on then we separate them.

It could very well keep going for a long time - the west bank is untouched by this as of now. And it's not in the best interest of Israel to keep this going...

Surely you don't want Bush intervening in something like that...

You mean like giving 86 million USD for weapons to one side while scuppering attempts at unity? Correct - who would?. But its too late now, since its been happening since Hamas was elected....

EU, UK, US and a mish-mash of Muslim countries, specifically those from out of the region: Indonesia, Pakistan, Libya, etc.

And at the behest of some of the same crew that brought the world that debacle, too.....This is from January of this year.







http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1578039,00.html

No surprise about Condo Rice, she's an amateur and academic who is in way over her head, much like most of the other incompetents in the Republican admin.

Let it decay until the "palestinians" no longer exist.

Let it decay until the "palestinians" no longer exist.

That's dark...

That's dark...

He's evil in that way.

Let it decay until the "palestinians" no longer exist.

According to you, they don't exist anyway. Or at least thats the impression I got...you made your usual speedy exit to avoid any fast incoming facts....

Let it decay until the "palestinians" no longer exist.
To misquote Stalin: "death solves everything - no man, no problem."

Nice.:rolleyes:

Mahmoud Abbas and Ehud Olmert have appealed to Ban-Ki Moon to send a United Nations Peacekeeping force. I would support a UN mission recruited from Pan-Arab nations such as Indonesia, Bangladesh and Pakistan.


As a former officer of the UN in Lebanon, I'd say that's a bad idea. More specifically, that Pan-Arab force you suggested. Bangladesh has the strongest UN force, because we choose to aid them via paying for their UN troops. As a return we get those rape cases people critical towards the UN are keen to point out.

In the middle east, in my opinion, it is all about being strict and keeping your word (well, yeah, it doesn't seem that way when watching the news) - 'calm power', as we used to say. Now, I wish I won't sound prejudiced when I say I wish the Peace Keeping Core to be sent there (if any) would be from the more well off countries.

Send EU troops from all nations with one of those "good at peacekeeping" medals which the UN gives out (France and Britain are esp. good for this IIRC, but British troops would be undesirable), and a set of engineers from Britain as a sign of goodwill - we might be able to get away with sending a few blokes with spanners and welding kits, because they'd be kind of useful, would help build pro-EU and pro-Britain feeling, and unlike Americans, they wouldn't be shot on sight.

That and a token force of people from Egypt, Jordan etc., because they're fairly well-trained for that kind of thing, have some degree of local support, and would be excellent as translators.

Nobody else, mind.

The war has now spread to the West Bank where Fatah is hitting back at Hamas.

Fatah won't be destroyed. They will be destroyed in Gaza (where Hamas is strong), but they will win in the West Bank where they are stronger than Hamas.

My guess is that this ends with two separate Palestinian entities. Gaza and the West Bank will be independent from each other and have two separate governments.

The war has now spread to the West Bank where Fatah is hitting back at Hamas.

Fatah won't be destroyed. They will be destroyed in Gaza (where Hamas is strong), but they will win in the West Bank where they are stronger than Hamas.

My guess is that this ends with two separate Palestinian entities. Gaza and the West Bank will be independent from each other and have two separate governments.

Hmm that could be a good thing, long term.

Hmm that could be a good thing, long term.

It could be, but it could also turn into a bad thing.

It is far to early to predict what can come of this.

Send EU troops from all nations with one of those "good at peacekeeping" medals which the UN gives out (France and Britain are esp. good for this IIRC, but British troops would be undesirable), and a set of engineers from Britain as a sign of goodwill - we might be able to get away with sending a few blokes with spanners and welding kits, because they'd be kind of useful, would help build pro-EU and pro-Britain feeling, and unlike Americans, they wouldn't be shot on sight.

That and a token force of people from Egypt, Jordan etc., because they're fairly well-trained for that kind of thing, have some degree of local support, and would be excellent as translators.

Nobody else, mind.
Egyptians wouldn't be a good idea. Hamas and their supporters won't trust them.

Hmm that could be a good thing, long term.
Makes it easier for Israeli bombers, eh?

Egyptians wouldn't be a good idea. Hamas and their supporters won't trust them.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070614/wl_mideast_afp/mideastgaza_11;_ylt=Al2IooUd.hHzExVRSr0XdWZg.3QA

Hamas has already said they will attack any UN force.

The problem is, any Islamic force will be seen as a threat by Israel (and, let's be honest, probably will be), and any non-Islamic force will be seen as invaders by Hamas (with some historical reason behind it).

Better to just let them settle things. Sometimes intervention helps; other situations, like this one, need to be allowed to burn themselves out.

It could be, but it could also turn into a bad thing.

It is far to early to predict what can come of this.

Well Israel can't very well keep up being smack in the middle of another country, if it splits in two though then they're fine. Plus they may be able to play the two against each other.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070614/wl_mideast_afp/mideastgaza_11;_ylt=Al2IooUd.hHzExVRSr0XdWZg.3QA

Hamas has already said they will attack any UN force.

Well, peacekeepers only work if there's a peace to keep, so this debate centers on the assumption that they won't somewhere down the line, I suppose...

The problem is, any Islamic force will be seen as a threat by Israel (and, let's be honest, probably will be)
I doubt Indonesian troops will be seen as a threat to Israel by Israel.

I doubt Indonesian troops will be seen as a threat to Israel by Israel.

No, fair point. Ditto Malaysia. Whether either of those nations really has the ability to pull it off (and trust me, they WON'T work together on it) is another matter.

I doubt Indonesian troops will be seen as a threat to Israel by Israel.True


Israel would also be fine with Egypt and Jordan, but they don't trust the Palestinians and the Palestinians don't trust them.

Maybe the Chinese should go in as peace keepers. They're totally neutral with regards to Hamas, Fatah, or Israel. Plus they've got the numbers to absorb numerous casualties over a long period of time, a government that will have little problem sending troops to their deaths, and they'll be ruthless enough to suppress the warring factions.

China is somewhat linked up to Iran, however, by an incredible level of trade. The Israelis could well have a problem with them on that account. Hamas may well be ok with it, but I can't see Israel.

Maybe the Chinese should go in as peace keepers. They're totally neutral with regards to Hamas, Fatah, or Israel. Plus they've got the numbers to absorb numerous casualties over a long period of time, a government that will have little problem sending troops to their deaths, and they'll be ruthless enough to suppress the warring factions.

*raises eyebrow*

You want to start encouraging China to flex its military muscles abroad now?

Bottom line: No matter where the troops are from, the IDF won't like them or respect them or their mandate.

I think the EU and Egypt + Jordan would be good...but I think their main job should just be civilian protection, let Hamas and Fatah fight the rest out...

I'd like to see states like Turkey, Pakistan and Bangladesh provide troops for a peace enforcement mission. All three have experience supporting previous UN missions, and none of them have been antagonistic to Israel.

Edit: Oops, looks like this has been discussed. Back to the drawing board maybe.

Bottom line: No matter where the troops are from, the IDF won't like them or respect them or their mandate.

As usual, you are talking out of your ass.

Israel has already called for the UN to send peacekeepers to Gaza. Israel doesn't want to go in there.

As usual, you are talking out of your ass.
I like the way you automatically go straight for the ol' ad hom.

Israel has already called for the UN to send peacekeepers to Gaza. Israel doesn't want to go in there.

Israel 'says' is doesn't want to go in there. Israel 'says' a lot of things. They then 'say' they were 'forced to take action/for security/stability' etc etc. See previous incursions in Gaza/assassinations in Gaza and West Bank/Lebanon (twice).

The IDF does not nor ever will respect peacekeepers near its borders. That's not me talking out of my ass - that's plain to see for everyone.

For the most recent examples, see the IAF targeting UNIFIL helicoptors flying over south Lebanon last autumn. When the French told them "do that again and we'll fire". Remember? It was carrying the commander of UNIFIL at the time?

Or IAF jets 'buzzing' a German naval vessel in late October of 2006?

Israel 'says' is doesn't want to go in there. Israel 'says' a lot of things. They then 'say' they were 'forced to take action/for security/stability' etc etc. See previous incursions in Gaza/assassinations in Gaza and West Bank/Lebanon (twice).
Israel was forced by rocket attacks to take action in Gaza. Notice though that Israel has not reoccupied Gaza despite the fact that Hamas's daily rocket firings and the capture of Gilad Shalit give them the justification to do so.

As for Lebanon, Hezbollah started it. They invaded Israel, killed 8 people, and then captured two more. That is legitimate casus bellum. Oh and before the raid, rockets were fired on Israeli towns to create a diversion.

As for Peace for Galilee, terrorist forces within Lebanon attacked Israel giving them casus bellum.


The IDF does not nor ever will respect peacekeepers near its borders. That's not me talking out of my ass - that's plain to see for everyone.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070614/wl_mideast_afp/mideastusgazaunforce_070614010747
You are talking out of your ass. Israel is asking the UN to do this. If Israel was really interested in entering this war, they wouldn't be doing this.

Bottom line: No matter where the troops are from, the IDF won't like them or respect them or their mandate.
TO be fair, I don't think most of the Palestinians would either. Not that I have anything but contempt for the IDF.
You are talking out of your ass. Israel is asking the UN to do this. If Israel was really interested in entering this war, they wouldn't be doing this.
Israel's government maybe, but the indiscriminate forces of the IDF?

TO be fair, I don't think most of the Palestinians would either. Not that I have anything but contempt for the IDF.

Fatah would accept them. Both Abbas and Olmert have asked Ki-Moon to send troops.

Hamas has openly said today that they will attack any UN force sent to Gaza.

If we compare the Palestinians to clay, we can say they were a complete finished piece and now they are back into raw material- Israel should invade the Gaza Strip, save the Fatah officials from certain death and move them to Gaza Strip - take over Gaza again, remove Hamas and reinstall Fatah then sign a treaty with Fatah they will protect them from Hamas, pull back from main palestinian territory and the palestinians sociaty will be rebuilt into seeing Israel and Fatah as the saviors and peace will reign in the middle east.

If we compare the Palestinians to clay, we can say they were a complete finished piece and now they are back into raw material- Israel should invade the Gaza Strip, save the Fatah officials from certain death and move them to Gaza Strip - take over Gaza again, remove Hamas and reinstall Fatah then sign a treaty with Fatah they will protect them from Hamas, pull back from main palestinian territory and the palestinians sociaty will be rebuilt into seeing Israel and Fatah as the saviors and peace will reign in the middle east.

Though they make you feel good, and smart, in the long term drug use can have serious consequences.

Its just a theory, the palestinian sociaty is suffering dearly- right now this civil war is 10 times worse then anything the occupation has ever offered .. they dont want the war and I believe will be full of gratitude to the force that will stop it and bring back peace to their lives

the palestinian sociaty is suffering dearly-

Yep.

right now this civil war is 10 times worse then anything the occupation has ever offered

You don't know much about the occupation then, I take it.



.. they dont want the war and I believe will be full of gratitude to the force that will stop it and bring back peace to their lives

...or regard it as a puppet Government employed to enforce the 'Pax Romana' while the occupiers take a back seat.

If we compare the Palestinians to clay, we can say they were a complete finished piece and now they are back into raw material- Israel should invade the Gaza Strip, save the Fatah officials from certain death and move them to Gaza Strip - take over Gaza again, remove Hamas and reinstall Fatah then sign a treaty with Fatah they will protect them from Hamas, pull back from main palestinian territory and the palestinians sociaty will be rebuilt into seeing Israel and Fatah as the saviors and peace will reign in the middle east.Hail to the Jewish overlords, huh?

I practiclly lived in the Gaza Strip for 3+ years, trust me I know

I practiclly lived in the Gaza Strip for 3+ years, trust me I knowThat Palestinians are clay? In another word: dirt?

We truly do live in a depressing epoch, if we cannot allow a conflict to occur without wringing our hands and wondering whether, like a parent, we should seperate the two combatents.

Let Hamas and Fatah fight; not only will the result be the destruction of one, but the other will be sufficiently weakened so as to benefit Israeli security.

That Palestinians are clay? In another word: dirt?

Your sense of metaphores clearly doesnt exist, I was refering to the fact the entire Palestinian government is collapsing to pieces and now when its all in ruins the one who will pick up the pieces and rebuild could change the way Palestinians live and think forever. It worked like that in EVERY civil war on planet earth

well it's over and Hamas won

I don't see why the international community should get involved. Their fight, their problem. If the Palestinians aren't capable of running their own affairs properly I don't think the rest of the world should get dragged into the mess.

Your sense of metaphores clearly doesnt exist, I was refering to the fact the entire Palestinian government is collapsing to pieces and now when its all in ruins the one who will pick up the pieces and rebuild could change the way Palestinians live and think forever. It worked like that in EVERY civil war on planet earthI understood you pretty clearly. You were referring to Palestinians as dirt that needs fashioning from outside, namely Israel.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12776612']I don't see why the international community should get involved. Their fight, their problem. If the Palestinians aren't capable of running their own affairs properly I don't think the rest of the world should get dragged into the mess.The international community created the problem by implanting the Jewish state into Palestine. The mess is of the international community's making.

*raises eyebrow*

You want to start encouraging China to flex its military muscles abroad now?

Bottom line: No matter where the troops are from, the IDF won't like them or respect them or their mandate.

Yeah. I really do. Let them shoulder the burden of being the world's police man. It's about time they start getting the same ammount of shit as is aimed at the US and the casualties will help keep the Chinese population down.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12776612']I don't see why the international community should get involved. Their fight, their problem. If the Palestinians aren't capable of running their own affairs properly I don't think the rest of the world should get dragged into the mess.

you guys some issues dude