NationStates Jolt Archive


A Little-Known Improvement Worth Noting

Europa Maxima
14-06-2007, 04:53
One of the rarely remarked upon consequences of Taliban rule in Afghanistan was its treatment of gays. Though their official policy—execution—wasn’t that out of the ordinary compared to Iran (or many other Muslim countries), their method, pushing a wall over, using a tank, and seeing how long the victim would survive, was especially brutal.

But what of gays in Afghanistan now? Traditionally, Islam hasn’t been especially hostile to homosexuality—well regarded classical Islamic poets have written lengthy love sonnets to the young boys they chased after, and were celebrated for it (while in the West we classify ephebophilia as a criminal sickness indistinguishable from pederasty, the line is much more distinct in other societies, including pre-modern Islam). Even in neighboring Pakistan, in Pashtun-majority areas no less, so-called male brides—in which a teenage boy is married off to an older man—happens today. And in Saudi Arabia, discrete homosexuality is virtually encouraged (or at least assented to) by the harsh religious police, which criminalize male-female relations but ignore same-sex relations.

Even the Taliban’s brutal repression of gays can’t be seen as simple hatred. A recent set of rules for Taliban fighters included prohibitions against taking boys into their tents alone, among other bizarre rules on sexuality (such as the power of the woman’s ankle). The excellent, if depressing film Osama includes a scene in which a Taliban elder instructs a room full of boys, at length, in how to properly wash their genitals. And Kandahar, the stronghold of the Taliban in the 90’s, was once known as the gay capital of South Asia.

All of this amounts to a truly complex, and not at all clear, picture of how Afghans view sexuality. While there isn’t any clear-cut religious or socio-ethnic bias against same-sex relationships in Afghan society, the previous decades of regression and repression have had an impact on mores and attitudes: that’s why you see so many women in burqas still, even though very few wore them before 1979. So the actual level of acceptance or tolerance of homosexuality in Afghanistan can’t simply be inferred by history, given all the recent reversals.

Enter David Axe, reporting from Afghanistan for the next few weeks. He reports that in the rural areas, openly gay relationships are so common even marriage ceremonies have been found. Indeed, many western travelers (and a few surprised soldiers) have expressed deep confusion and surprise when some Afghan men have flirted with them, or even made outright sexual advances.

Why, according to Axe, are gays so seemingly accepted, in a country otherwise known for its conservative, and repressive, religious views?

Many Afghans disapprove, but according to custom, boys gain their independence in their teenage years … and what they do after that is up to them, even if it flies in the face of traditional Islam’s enthusiastic advocacy of the breeding family. So Afghans just shrug and move on to more important issues, such as the latest tactics for oppressing their daughters. Six years after the Taliban’s fall, most Afghan women still wear their burqas when they’re out in public and many decline to appear in public at all. Cultural mores proved stronger than law as far as the treatment of Afghan women goes, but with Afghan men, the lifting of legal restrictions on gay sex resulted in a flourishing gay community. Go figure.

Go figure, indeed. This can surely be called one of the great unintended consequences of the invasion. Though the Taliban was primarily reviled for its horrendous treatment of women, that treatment hasn’t necessarily improved with their removal (though rampant executions are far more rare, which is a remarkable improvement). The life of gays in Afghanistan, though, has unquestionably improved.

The article is here (http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/06/13/a-little-known-improvement-worth-noting/).

Thoughts on this? Do you believe that the invasion indeed had such a consequence?
The Lone Alliance
14-06-2007, 05:13
Meh, I bet lesibians are shot however.
Europa Maxima
14-06-2007, 05:23
Meh, I bet lesibians are shot however.
Sounds sort of like the opposite of the West. :p
Ancap Paradise
14-06-2007, 05:34
Interesting.
Markeliopia
14-06-2007, 05:46
That's nice, but I hope woman start getting some freedoms too
Andaras Prime
14-06-2007, 06:55
Your forgetting also that they used to shoot women in the Kabul stadium for entertainment.
Call to power
14-06-2007, 08:46
so the Afghans created the gay capitol of south east Asia and generally looked down on women...also there president looks fabulous

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....
Allanea
14-06-2007, 09:27
Go figure, indeed. This can surely be called one of the great unintended consequences of the invasion. Though the Taliban was primarily reviled for its horrendous treatment of women, that treatment hasn’t necessarily improved with their removal (though rampant executions are far more rare, which is a remarkable improvement). The life of gays in Afghanistan, though, has unquestionably improved.

Women can vote in Afghanistan now, too.

Giving women the vote was thought of as a great thing in Europe and America, why isn't it important when it happens in Afghanistan?
The Infinite Dunes
14-06-2007, 09:38
Women can vote in Afghanistan now, too.

Giving women the vote was thought of as a great thing in Europe and America, why isn't it important when it happens in Afghanistan?Probably because women were given the vote in the West as result of the huge suffragette movement.

I'm not aware of movement in Afghanistan that paraleled the suffragette movement in terms of size. So in essence female suffrage seems to have been a western value that has been thrust upon Afghanistan, and not as the result of shifting views of women in Afghan society.
Dododecapod
14-06-2007, 09:40
Women can vote in Afghanistan now, too.

Giving women the vote was thought of as a great thing in Europe and America, why isn't it important when it happens in Afghanistan?

It is. But sooner or later the west will have to leave Afghanistan to it's own people, and the question of whether such imposed reforms will be permitted to continue remains.

Reforms made by the Afghan people, as opposed to our imposed reforms, are much more likely to remain.
Allanea
14-06-2007, 09:41
Thank you.

As such, you agree that Western military involvement has brought on women's suffrage in Afghanistan, and that aforementioned suffrage would not have happened without it.

Hence, hurrah for the West - and specially for the USMC, the real freedom-fighters.
Allanea
14-06-2007, 09:41
It is. But sooner or later the west will have to leave Afghanistan to it's own people, and the question of whether such imposed reforms will be permitted to continue remains.

Reforms made by the Afghan people, as opposed to our imposed reforms, are much more likely to remain.

Look at the reforms the West 'imposed' in Japan.

Women still vote there.
Dododecapod
14-06-2007, 09:46
Look at the reforms the West 'imposed' in Japan.

Women still vote there.

It is so. But Japan is Japan, and is not like anywhere else. By the end of WWII, we had smashed their government, destroyed their traditional religion, and shattered what they had considered to be their society. Japan had to rebuild from scratch, and we provided the template to do so.

Afghanistan lost nothing but a somewhat insane fascist regime. Their traditions and culture will change by contact with us, that is unavoidable even if it were desirable. But most of what they value and consider right will remain as it was.
Neo Undelia
14-06-2007, 09:48
Traditionally, Islam hasn’t been especially hostile to homosexuality

Traditionally Islam kicked ass in many other arenas of tolerance as well, relative to the West anyway.
A bunch of British and French politicians, Nazis and Islamic opportunists are responsible for the current idiocy of the Middle East.
Allanea
14-06-2007, 09:48
Afghanistan lost nothing but a somewhat insane fascist regime. Their traditions and culture will change by contact with us, that is unavoidable even if it were desirable. But most of what they value and consider right will remain as it was.

The point is, it is possible to impose Western values by the sword.

It worked before, I don't see why it can't work today.

It's possible for it to fail, I give you that, but it's not an 'OMG IT IS ISTUPID HOW COME YOU'VE THOUGHT OF THAT?!!!' idea.
Dododecapod
14-06-2007, 09:51
The point is, it is possible to impose Western values by the sword.

It worked before, I don't see why it can't work today.

It's possible for it to fail, I give you that, but it's not an 'OMG IT IS ISTUPID HOW COME YOU'VE THOUGHT OF THAT?!!!' idea.

No it's not stupid at all. I'm just saying it isn't a done deal; we'll have to see how things go in five or six years, when we actually pull out.
Allanea
14-06-2007, 09:53
No it's not stupid at all. I'm just saying it isn't a done deal; we'll have to see how things go in five or six years, when we actually pull out.

*actually agrees*
Allanea
14-06-2007, 10:06
Perhaps, but these people will have fought and died for nothing since they have made no real change to culture and society of Afghanistan.

Sometiems tolerance is a result of institutional freedom and not vice versa.
Think Brown vs. Board of Education.
The Infinite Dunes
14-06-2007, 10:06
Thank you.

As such, you agree that Western military involvement has brought on women's suffrage in Afghanistan, and that aforementioned suffrage would not have happened without it.

Hence, hurrah for the West - and specially for the USMC, the real freedom-fighters.Perhaps, but these people will have fought and died for nothing since they have made no real change to culture and society of Afghanistan.

But then I would question whether there is actual freedom in Afghanistan. All it is institutional freedom. These ideas are not present in the minds of the majority. But even then such freedom still sucks. Especially when you consider that a female MP was kicked out of parliament by MPs and has survived four assassination attempts since 2003.
Allanea
14-06-2007, 10:32
In Islamic Afghanistan, Lesbian shoot you! :)
The Lone Alliance
14-06-2007, 10:33
Sounds sort of like the opposite of the West. :p
In Western World Cameras shoot Lesibians.
In Islamic Afghanistan, Guns shoot Lesbians!