NationStates Jolt Archive

Now wait a damn minute...

Both major political parties here are embracing the idea of a national "Britain Day" -- a holiday when all things British will be celebrated.

Speaking in London earlier this month, Conservative Party leader David Cameron said that Britons had failed to develop a national identity like the United States.

"Of course, America is not perfect," he said. "But it does succeed in creating, to an extent far more evident than we have achieved here, a real sense of common identity."

Really? When I was in London I got the DISTINCT impression that there was a common British identity - didn't matter if I drove up to Manchester, or went over to Hull. I got a distinct sense of national identity.

What do you people in the UK think of the idea of "Britain Day", and is David Cameron an idiot, or am I imagining things?

Remember most politicians are out of touch with the rest of the population. This Britain has its advantages and disdvantages which I picke up from wathcing The Wright Stuff:

Advantages:

Could bring people from all cultures within Britain together.
Another holiday off work.
A fun day out for everyone.

Disadvantages:
Could be taken the wrong way and groups like the BNP could take advantage.
A waste of time and money.
There is no clear aim.

I think its a good idea - we need a bank holiday in autumn - and it would be a good excuse for afternoon tea, hotpot, bangers & mash and good ale :D

I sincerely hope that the BNP don't take over any celebration that is planned - it's because of that crowd that most Brits are embarrassed to be seen with the union flag :(

Wait what? Americans don't have culture, everyone knows that. Are they referring to lemming like patriotism?

Wait what? Americans don't have culture, everyone knows that. Are they referring to lemming like patriotism?

I think that's what they're getting at...

Ah, you've made a common mistake. That's English identity; London, Manchester, and Hull are all in England. Go to Scotland, Wales, and N Ireland and you'll be faced with differing attitudes.

I went to Dublin. Does that count?

Now wait a damn minute...



Really? When I was in London I got the DISTINCT impression that there was a common British identity - didn't matter if I drove up to Manchester, or went over to Hull. I got a distinct sense of national identity.

Ah, you've made a common mistake. That's English identity; London, Manchester, and Hull are all in England. Go to Scotland, Wales, and N Ireland and you'll be faced with differing attitudes.

Now wait a damn minute...



Really? When I was in London I got the DISTINCT impression that there was a common British identity - didn't matter if I drove up to Manchester, or went over to Hull. I got a distinct sense of national identity.

What do you people in the UK think of the idea of "Britain Day", and is David Cameron an idiot, or am I imagining things?
Next time, try Glasgow, Cardiff and Belfast.;)

Oh, sorry DK, you were right about one thing; David Cameron is an idiot.

Wait what? Americans don't have culture, everyone knows that. Are they referring to lemming like patriotism?

you know not all of us are stereo typical Americans...we do have a culture

If we get an extra day off, it's good.
If we don't, I don't care.

Oh, sorry DK, you were right about one thing; David Cameron is an idiot.
Anyone who thinks washing up in ads make them look working class needs their head sorting out. I'd do it with a brick.

Britishness consists of two main things:

1. A failure to clearly define what Britishness is.

2. Finding flag-waving patriotism very embarrassing.

I can see problems trying to organise a holiday around it.

Oh, sorry DK, you were right about one thing; David Cameron is an idiot.

QFT

Britishness consists of two main things:

1. A failure to clearly define what Britishness is.

2. Finding flag-waving patriotism very embarrassing.

I can see problems trying to organise a holiday around it.

Will you get to fire off decent fireworks on your own? That's the real question.

we do have a culture

Yes, in a petri dish. :D

Will you get to fire off decent fireworks on your own? That's the real question.

That's what New Year is for - at least over here (not UK nor USA). :p

you know not all of us are stereo typical Americans...we do have a culture

I wasn't aware Indiana was a foreign country. Does explain a few things.

Big shit, its just like the 4th of July, Australia day, or any other types of those national holidays.

Why can't the UK have one?

I keep reading the title as "Britons Insufficiently Insufferable" and thinking "That's not true at all!" :p

but we already don't celebrate Georges day, why have another day that basically involves celebrating things that aren't British:confused:

Yes, in a petri dish. :D

:p props for that

I wasn't aware Indiana was a foreign country. Does explain a few things.

what?

I wasn't aware Indiana was a foreign country. Does explain a few things.

It should be. You people with your genetically modified corn and addiction to basketball....:p

Will you get to fire off decent fireworks on your own? That's the real question.

Novermber 5th.

We're still not sure if we're celebrating that Guido FAILED to blow up parliament or honouring the fact he TRIED. :p

It should be. You people with your genetically modified corn and addiction to basketball....:p

Well it's either play basketball or watch the corn grow.

Remember most politicians are out of touch with the rest of the population. This Britain has its advantages and disdvantages which I picke up from wathcing The Wright Stuff:

Advantages:

Could bring people from all cultures within Britain together.
Another holiday off work.
A fun day out for everyone.

Disadvantages:
Could be taken the wrong way and groups like the BNP could take advantage.
A waste of time and money.
There is no clear aim.


Culture and identity cannot be artificially created. Why bother trying?

Britishness consists of two main things:

1. A failure to clearly define what Britishness is.

2. Finding flag-waving patriotism very embarrassing.

I can see problems trying to organise a holiday around it.

QFT. But I'll take a day off work if it's coming.

Also, yes, David Cameron is an idiot. But he seems like he might be a harmless idiot. Blair and Brown both seem to have started thinking they can change the world with their bare hands.

Novermber 5th.

We're still not sure if we're celebrating that Guido FAILED to blow up parliament or honouring the fact he TRIED. :p

Damnit....I was gonna say that :(:p

100th post whoooo!! I'm a PIMP!

Both major political parties here are embracing the idea of a national "Britain Day" -- a holiday when all things British will be celebrated.

Speaking in London earlier this month, Conservative Party leader David Cameron said that Britons had failed to develop a national identity like the United States.

"Of course, America is not perfect," he said. "But it does succeed in creating, to an extent far more evident than we have achieved here, a real sense of common identity."

A few idiots shouting and waving flags does not make a national identity. Take a person from Queens NY, Des Moines IA, Mobile AL, and San Fransisco CA and get them in a room together. The probably wouldn't even realize they were speaking the same language much less form any kind of national identity.

QFT. But I'll take a day off work if it's coming.

Also, yes, David Cameron is an idiot. But he seems like he might be a harmless idiot. Blair and Brown both seem to have started thinking they can change the world with their bare hands.

No no no. David Cameron is a tit, and he's a damn sight more dangerous than either Blair, or Brown. I will grudgingly concede a modicum of respect for Gordon Brown, on the grounds that he genuinely does believe that his policies will be of benefit to Britain, not simply to his own political career. However, David Cameron cares not a jot for the implications of a Cameron administration either for British politics, or for Britain itself.

William Hague, quite simply, should be conservative leader.

but we already don't celebrate Georges day, why have another day that basically involves celebrating things that aren't British:confused:

Well if you had associated St Georges Day with drinking you wouldn't have had this problem :p

These politicians may have a point. I have only been to England, but from what I here, Wales and Scotland are quite different. Unity still wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for devolution. It doesn't help either that Scotland talks of secession every now and then. So yeah, I guess Britain does need an identity. Then again, I think it'd be easier to devolve completely. England, Wales, and Scotland are no threat against each other, and all three probably would cooperate closely, anyhow. They'd probably all be EU members, too.

I dread a "British" day, and any other attempts to create similiar nationalistic "British" institutions, because it undermines Scottish sovereignty and self-determination.

what a waste of time.

These politicians may have a point. I have only been to England, but from what I here, Wales and Scotland are quite different. Unity still wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for devolution. It doesn't help either that Scotland talks of secession every now and then. So yeah, I guess Britain does need an identity. Then again, I think it'd be easier to devolve completely. England, Wales, and Scotland are no threat against each other, and all three probably would cooperate closely, anyhow. They'd probably all be EU members, too.

You're thinking very simplistically about the relationship between the constituent countries (and you forgot to mention Northern Ireland, an unforgivable mistake :p)

I went to Dublin. Does that count?

Thankfully no, but I still hope you got your shots.

You're thinking very simplistically about the relationship between the constituent countries (and you forgot to mention Northern Ireland, an unforgivable mistake :p)

1. I know it's far more complex than that. But I find that complicated frameworks are often just a transition step. Besides, England and Scotland, at least, share very little other than a language and a Queen, and I'm not sure of the latter's effectiveness.
2. Sorry about Northern Ireland. It's just a sad, complicated story, and actually, I know very little about devolution there. It just formed a new government, but does that have any real power, or is it all still with Parliament?

A few idiots shouting and waving flags does not make a national identity. Take a person from Queens NY, Des Moines IA, Mobile AL, and San Fransisco CA and get them in a room together. The probably wouldn't even realize they were speaking the same language much less form any kind of national identity.

Quite. I went to school in France last semester and I had a Chinese friend who refused to believe me when I told him that people where I live don't say "Y'all" or wear cowboy hats and such. The US may have a sort of collective identity, but there are certainly regional identities as well.

Tea, Curry and Rum, celebrate the fruits of empire.

Tea, Curry and Rum, celebrate the fruits of empire.

No. We'd spend all bloody day apologising profusely for the empire whilst guiltily sipping our teas.

No. We'd spend all bloody day apologising profusely for the empire whilst guiltily sipping our teas.

I bet the Indians there would have a blast.

1. I know it's far more complex than that. But I find that complicated frameworks are often just a transition step. Besides, England and Scotland, at least, share very little other than a language and a Queen, and I'm not sure of the latter's effectiveness.
2. Sorry about Northern Ireland. It's just a sad, complicated story, and actually, I know very little about devolution there. It just formed a new government, but does that have any real power, or is it all still with Parliament?

From the sounds of things you know very little not just about Northern Irish devolution but also the relationship between the 4 countries. I'd suggest you read up on them before saying that their only connection is a language and the Queen

I bet the Indians there would have a blast.

One can but hope.

From the sounds of things you know very little not just about Northern Irish devolution but also the relationship between the 4 countries. I'd suggest you read up on them before saying that their only connection is a language and the Queen

Okay. Got any suggestions?

Okay. Got any suggestions?

On where to read? Theres a lot of information out there. Google is your friend

you know not all of us are stereo typical Americans...we do have a culture
We do? I hadn't noticed. Or do you refer to the so-called culture defined by American Idol, TomKat, and the Atkins Diet? That's the closest we've got.

Novermber 5th.

We're still not sure if we're celebrating that Guido FAILED to blow up parliament or honouring the fact he TRIED. :p
I had heard it was for honoring the only man ever to enter Parliament with honest intentions. Wish we had one of those people.

Okay. Got any suggestions?

A history book?

A history book?

I studied British politics in Oxford last summer. My understanding of the devolution process is therefore purely political. Personally, I have trouble getting into the mindset of a typical European. Their political machinery is the same, but they have so many more operators than America, or even other regions.

I bet the Indians there would have a blast.

Believe me, we would...

Love British!:fluffle:

These politicians may have a point. I have only been to England, but from what I here, Wales and Scotland are quite different. Unity still wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for devolution. It doesn't help either that Scotland talks of secession every now and then. So yeah, I guess Britain does need an identity. Then again, I think it'd be easier to devolve completely. England, Wales, and Scotland are no threat against each other, and all three probably would cooperate closely, anyhow. They'd probably all be EU members, too.

Imagine it like a soap opera. The main charachters are:
England
Scotland
Wales
Ireland (North and South)

So like, England comes in at around 800 and being the largest pile of land first invades Scotland. Then Wales. Wales and Scotland are always quite sore about this, really, to be honest. Ireland is discovered by the British in about 900 and a massive series of fights break out over Ireland. Scotland and Wales join in too for a laugh, and somehow, surprisingly, England wins. Nothing really happens for the next 800 years except Wales Scotland and Ireland are all united in their hatred of the English.

I think its 1699, theres a massive fight between the English and Irish. We win, again.

Scotland and Wales still harbour bad feelings for England, mostly because England gets all the limelight from the Empire, and also because Gaelic, Druidic and all that is definately crushed by England by now, but Gaelic and Welsh are still learnt, passed down (Now a GCSE option :O!)

All those horrible Ireland conflicts occur, at present day, due to Englands influence in Northern Ireland. And the fact that the Protestants hate Catholics and vice versa. Due to England.

So, these countries hate us because:

-we stole their land
-we destroyed their culture
-we never really cared for them, in like, potato famines
-they never got much limelight
-we always treated them quite harshly

Trust, there is alot betwixt these countries which isnt unified. In fact, around 83% of them.

TEA! BISCUITS! MONARCHY! IMPERIALISM! PINK FLOYD! SECEDING FROM THE VATICAN! OPPRESSION! LOTS OF SECURITY CAMERAS! AN UNWRITTEN CONSTITUTION! HUMOROUS ACCENTS!

It'll be the best party ever!

Believe me, we would...

Love British!:fluffle:



Imagine it like a soap opera. The main charachters are:
England
Scotland
Wales
Ireland (North and South)

So like, England comes in at around 800 and being the largest pile of land first invades Scotland. Then Wales. Wales and Scotland are always quite sore about this, really, to be honest. Ireland is discovered by the British in about 900 and a massive series of fights break out over Ireland. Scotland and Wales join in too for a laugh, and somehow, surprisingly, England wins. Nothing really happens for the next 800 years except Wales Scotland and Ireland are all united in their hatred of the English.

I think its 1699, theres a massive fight between the English and Irish. We win, again.

Scotland and Wales still harbour bad feelings for England, mostly because England gets all the limelight from the Empire, and also because Gaelic, Druidic and all that is definately crushed by England by now, but Gaelic and Welsh are still learnt, passed down (Now a GCSE option :O!)

All those horrible Ireland conflicts occur, at present day, due to Englands influence in Northern Ireland. And the fact that the Protestants hate Catholics and vice versa. Due to England.

So, these countries hate us because:

-we stole their land
-we destroyed their culture
-we never really cared for them, in like, potato famines
-they never got much limelight
-we always treated them quite harshly

Trust, there is alot betwixt these countries which isnt unified. In fact, around 83% of them.

Yeah, but England and Scotland, at least, didn't have an all bad relationship. Scotland was, and still is, reasonably powerful in Parliament, and quite a few PMs, including the next one, were/are Scottish. One could almost say that Tony Blair was a Scot, too, having so many of them in his government. In the same way, of course, that Bill Clinton was black.

Yeah, but England and Scotland, at least, didn't have an all bad relationship.

From whose perspective? The Scots? A lot would beg to differ historically.

Yeah, but England and Scotland, at least, didn't have an all bad relationship. Scotland was, and still is, reasonably powerful in Parliament, and quite a few PMs, including the next one, were/are Scottish. One could almost say that Tony Blair was a Scot, too, having so many of them in his government. In the same way, of course, that Bill Clinton was black.

Name a scottish prime minister.

In any case, scotland is where Labour gains elections from. Remove the scotch MP's from the English parliament, and we have a delightfully Conservative government.

I think its 1699, theres a massive fight between the English and Irish. We win, again.

Scotland and Wales still harbour bad feelings for England, mostly because England gets all the limelight from the Empire, and also because Gaelic, Druidic and all that is definately crushed by England by now, but Gaelic and Welsh are still learnt, passed down (Now a GCSE option :O!)

All those horrible Ireland conflicts occur, at present day, due to Englands influence in Northern Ireland. And the fact that the Protestants hate Catholics and vice versa. Due to England.

So, these countries hate us because:

-we stole their land
-we destroyed their culture
-we never really cared for them, in like, potato famines
-they never got much limelight
-we always treated them quite harshly

Trust, there is alot betwixt these countries which isnt unified. In fact, around 83% of them.

Actually its 1690 and that was a battle between two contenders for the English throne, the Catholic Irish backing the (useless) James, the Protestant/Settler Irish backing the capable William (King Billy).

You left out the normans inm Ireland, the Elizabethan wars, the first plantation, Cromwell and the second planation, as well as the Penal laws and the statutes of kilkenny and the 1798 rising. However your summation is essentially correct.

Name a scottish prime minister.

In any case, scotland is where Labour gains elections from. Remove the scotch MP's from the English parliament, and we have a delightfully Conservative government.

Man, I'd think scotch would be popular with both parties.

Big shit, its just like the 4th of July, Australia day, or any other types of those national holidays.

Why can't the UK have one?
Hmmm, seeing how reunification day is "celebrated" (ie: not at all) here in Germany, I do not see the point...

Name a scottish prime minister.

Tony Blair.

Us brits being so pessimistic and sarcastic and all, we will probably somehow turn it inside out and make it look like the most stupidist idea ever.

Tony Blair.

On the technicality he was born in Scotland.

Name a scottish prime minister.

In any case, scotland is where Labour gains elections from. Remove the scotch MP's from the English parliament, and we have a delightfully Conservative government.
Isn't it amazing how people think that based on one election?

Tony Blair.
Ramsay MacDonald

On the technicality he was born in Scotland.

Lived there for a period as well, and had his secondary education in Edinburgh. Claims of nationality have, in the past, been made on far more spurious links to a country.

Ramsay MacDonald

Don't forget the soon to be pm Gordon Brown.

From whose perspective? The Scots? A lot would beg to differ historically.

The lowland Scots got on with the English well enough I think.

Don't forget the soon to be pm Gordon Brown.
Or, as one Labour MP put it, Prime Minister-Elect. Yuck.

I think that the british stereotype is a lot nicer than the american stereotype...

I mean, I'll take people with bad teeth to obsese people, overly polite to overly rude, tea and good beer drinkers to those who think that piss = good booze, and man, whoever came up with the deep fried pickle and chocolate bar... fucking genious.

Name a scottish prime minister.
Balfour. Can't ever remember his first name, but his last name has become iconic. I'm surprised all of the NS Zionists don't mention him more often.
In any case, scotland is where Labour gains elections from. Remove the scotch MP's from the English parliament, and we have a delightfully Conservative government.
Definitely. Half of the Blair government were Scots. He was almost a Scot, himself.

On the technicality he was born in Scotland.

He's not Scottish, though, is he?

He's not Scottish, though, is he?

Not in my opinion anyway.

Name a scottish prime minister.

Stuart 1762-1763 (3rd Earl Of Bute)
Hamilton-Gordon 1852-1855 (4th Earl of Aberdeen)
Primrose 1894-1895 (5th Earl of Rosebery)
Balfour 1902-1905
Campbell-Bannerman 1905-1908
Ramsay MacDonald Jan-Nov 1924
Douglas-Home 1963-1964

We're well entrenched.

Not in my opinion anyway.

Well, his constituency is in Northern England, so he'd probably agree with you. But I think he was Scottish in the same way that Bill Clinton was black.

Culture and identity cannot be artificially created. Why bother trying?

Haven't you been paying attention, because then everyone gets a day off work.

you know not all of us are stereo typical Americans...we do have a culture

Consisting of...?

but we already don't celebrate Georges day, why have another day that basically involves celebrating things that aren't British:confused:

Yes, but it is only the English who actively don't celebrate things that aren't British on St George's day. For us in the cetic fringe we don't even note its passing - and why should we?

If you see what I mean.

Stuart 1762-1763 (3rd Earl Of Bute)
Hamilton-Gordon 1852-1855 (4th Earl of Aberdeen)
Primrose 1894-1895 (5th Earl of Rosebery)
Balfour 1902-1905
Campbell-Bannerman 1905-1908
Ramsay MacDonald Jan-Nov 1924
Douglas-Home 1963-1964

We're well entrenched.

The first hadful on that list weren't ever technically Prime Minister though, and are only considered as such retrospectively.

Well, his constituency is in Northern England, so he'd probably agree with you. But I think he was Scottish in the same way that Bill Clinton was black.

Trying to resolve a question of nationality by reference to a question of race is less than helpful. You define 'black' and I'll define 'Scottish', okay?

Consisting of...?

well tell me how to type culture into a sentence and ill tell you...

No. We'd spend all bloody day apologising profusely for the empire whilst guiltily sipping our teas.

Considering the millions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943) that your empire killed.....that's the last thing you can whine about.

The first hadful on that list weren't ever technically Prime Minister though, and are only considered as such retrospectively.
They are considered to have been Prime Ministers according to Downing Street (http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page123.asp), and that seems a reasonable enough source to me.

My point about being well-entrenched was that we have historically 'had' more PMs than can be reasonaby expected given the low proportion of the overall population that we represent.

It's somewhat moot though, since it has little to do with the OP.

I consider myself to be Scottish.

I myself do not believe that any such thing as a 'British' identity exists, unless it is to the same extent that a 'European' identity exists. Each member nation has maintained their own culture and tradition. No doubt many people South of the border would disagree but they are, in my opinion, simply confusing their own 'Englishness' with 'Britishness'.

What do you people in the UK think of the idea of "Britain Day", and is David Cameron an idiot, or am I imagining things?

Yes, he is.

Considering the millions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943) that your empire killed.....that's the last thing you can whine about.

Yawn. It was an observation upon what the day would consist of.

Incidentally, you do know you have no place to moan, given you weren't strong enough to stop us occupying you.

but we already don't celebrate Georges day, why have another day that basically involves celebrating things that aren't British:confused:

Thats a point, we should just celebrate St Georges day, hold on wait a min, our goverment wont let it be a public holiday though for fear of offeding people!

Incidentally, you do know you have no place to moan, given you weren't strong enough to stop us occupying you.

So if somebody isnt strong enough to fight off a mugger or rapist, that justifies the mugging/raping? Very nice view of life that......

The reason that Labour are punting a British Day is to give validity to Gordon Brown. Simply because England represents 80% of the population of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and there is talk that they are fed up being bossed about by non-english politicians.

English MPs have no rights in certain areas when it comes to Wales, Scotland and NI, who through their devolved Assemblies and Parliaments make their own decisions. Yet MPs from those three countries still get to decide and in certain cases ram through legislation affecting the English only.

I for one favour a dissolution of the Union and making each of the four countries seperate and independent.

I also favour making England a Republic and seizing back all the assets the Royal Family (of all houses) have nicked off the people over the centuries.

Long Live The English Republic!

So if somebody isnt strong enough to fight off a mugger or rapist, that justifies the mugging/raping? Very nice view of life that......

Politically, might does equal right.

Politically, might does equal right.

I don't think I need to say how easy it would be to insert a valid Godwin here.

I consider myself to be Scottish.

I myself do not believe that any such thing as a 'British' identity exists, unless it is to the same extent that a 'European' identity exists. Each member nation has maintained their own culture and tradition. No doubt many people South of the border would disagree but they are, in my opinion, simply confusing their own 'Englishness' with 'Britishness'.

I think you pretty much hit it right on the head there. Each constituent country has it's own inherent culture and organisations, and trying to "Briticise" them is much more offensive to me than, say, allowing Scotland, England, Wales and Ireland to celebrate St. Andrews, St. Georges, St. Davids and St. Patricks day, respectively.

Novermber 5th.

We're still not sure if we're celebrating that Guido FAILED to blow up parliament or honouring the fact he TRIED. :p

Give it a few hundred more years we may have gotten a few more brain cells haha

Dumb idea for a holiday, I drink to much as it is, what am I going to do? :( Stay sober?

I for one favour a dissolution of the Union and making each of the four countries separate and independent.

I also favour making England a Republic and seizing back all the assets the Royal Family (of all houses) have nicked off the people over the centuries.

Long Live The English Republic!

You just don't want to pay for all use losers in the small countries do you? :(

I completely agree with you though, even if Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland couldn't sustain themselves. England should not foot the bill which it does now. Check prescription charges as a case example of why things shouldn't have been devolved and one law should cover all nations

Blasphemer!!!!!!!!!

I'm sorry, hung over :p Can't think of anything!

Give it a few hundred more years we may have gotten a few more brain cells haha

Dumb idea for a holiday, I drink to much as it is, what am I going to do? :( Stay sober?

Blasphemer!!!!!!!!!

Yawn. It was an observation upon what the day would consist of.

Incidentally, you do know you have no place to moan, given you weren't strong enough to stop us occupying you.

Dude, you were the one whining about being made to feel guilty blah blah...

And am I to understand that just because the British were not strong enough to stop the 7/7 bombers, you cannot "moan" about the blatant and outrageous terrorist act ?

There is very little about life where I live and people where I live that has a great deal in common with London, Hull, Manchester etc etc. We live in a rural area, with high unemployment, low wages and virtually no immigration or ethnic minorities. I would like to say that I am proud to be English, but sometimes I am not. But it is still a pretty good place. Lets celebrate St. Georges day properly, they already have St. Davids day in Wales, Burns Night in Scoltand and St. Patricks in N. Ireland. Why do we need to 'make up' a day?

*goes in search of food.......

Yes, David Cameron is an idiot. This idea will never get off the ground, people cannot decide what 'English' is, let alone incorporating the others (who probably do not want to be part of it) into it.

I think its a good idea - we need a bank holiday in autumn - and it would be a good excuse for afternoon tea, hotpot, bangers & mash and good ale :D

I sincerely hope that the BNP don't take over any celebration that is planned - it's because of that crowd that most Brits are embarrassed to be seen with the union flag :(

Never let the assholes take your flag from you. If you're a Briton, it's your fucking flag, too. Don't let bigoted jerks hijack it.

Never let the assholes take your flag from you. If you're a Briton, it's your fucking flag, too. Don't let bigoted jerks hijack it.

Sadly, too late:

http://www.londonelects.org.uk/imagebank/store/candidates/partylogos/bnp_logo.gif

The BNP are a blight on Britain. I just read their manifesto and I swear I died a little inside. Those people have no social or economical sense and if elected would be the downfall of the UK. :(

Ah, you've made a common mistake. That's English identity; London, Manchester, and Hull are all in England. Go to Scotland, Wales, and N Ireland and you'll be faced with differing attitudes.

Yeah, this is the overriding problem with attempts to create a sense of 'Britishness'. It all gets caught up in squabbles over half-remembered (and frequently mis-remembered) ancestral wrongdoings.

Which is why myself and a friend decided to scrap the English/Welsh/Scottish/Irish thing and revive the Pictish nation. Since no-one seems to know too much about the Picts, we can pretty much make our culture up as we go along. Plus we get to confuse Scottish nationalists by telling them to clear off back to Ireland where they belong.

Now wait a damn minute...



Really? When I was in London I got the DISTINCT impression that there was a common British identity - didn't matter if I drove up to Manchester, or went over to Hull. I got a distinct sense of national identity.

What do you people in the UK think of the idea of "Britain Day", and is David Cameron an idiot, or am I imagining things?

i sincerely dislike the US "patriotism" and vastly prefer the more objective view so many of us in the EU seem to proffer. i would hate this idea.

...we get to confuse Scottish nationalists by telling them to clear off back to Ireland where they belong.

Any attempt for racial purity in the UK is dead in the water before it even starts. You put your finger on it with the Scots race coming over from Ireland to invade and settle northern Britain. There is no such thing as a pure race on this island, we are so mixed up with angles, saxons, celts, irish, vikings, normans, romans and not least whoever was on the island before the celts came over from europe.

Whoops and I forgot to mention your Picts too!

<OP>

What in the world is this "common American identity"? The only thing common across the states is the federal constitution, and even that is only to a limited extent.

Any attempt for racial purity in the UK is dead in the water before it even starts. You put your finger on it with the Scots race coming over from Ireland to invade and settle northern Britain. There is no such thing as a pure race on this island, we are so mixed up with angles, saxons, celts, irish, vikings, normans, romans and not least whoever was on the island before the celts came over from europe.

Whoops and I forgot to mention your Picts too!

Not true. Although there has been some degree of mixing with Saxons and such like mainly in the east of England, recent genetic evidence shows that racially the large majority of all British and Irish ancestry is to Celtic fisherman from Spain. Of course, that still won't silence Scottish nationalists, but what does? :p

Not true. Although there has been some degree of mixing with Saxons and such like mainly in the east of England, recent genetic evidence shows that racially the large majority of all British and Irish ancestry is to Celtic fisherman from Spain. Of course, that still won't silence Scottish nationalists, but what does? :p
Gotta link?

Gotta link?

http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7817

Sorry, they weren't even Celtic...

I don't think the culture of the highlands of scotland, ireland, cornwall, london etc... are so hugely radically different that they don't share anything in common. From my experience, they seem to have more in common then not in common.

<OP>

What in the world is this "common American identity"? The only thing common across the states is the federal constitution, and even that is only to a limited extent.

American Football, American Idol and cheeseburgers?

Honestly, there isn't as much as the hardcore American nationalists would have us believe.

American Football, American Idol and cheeseburgers?

Honestly, there isn't as much as the hardcore American nationalists would have us believe.

I don't watch American football and don't watch American Idol.

I do cook cheeseburgers (over charcoal).

fuck the english:sniper:

fuck the english:sniper:

Wow thats a very pleasant name you have there

I think you pretty much hit it right on the head there. Each constituent country has it's own inherent culture and organisations, and trying to "Briticise" them is much more offensive to me than, say, allowing Scotland, England, Wales and Ireland to celebrate St. Andrews, St. Georges, St. Davids and St. Patricks day, respectively.

They are considered to have been Prime Ministers according to Downing Street (http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page123.asp), and that seems a reasonable enough source to me.

My point about being well-entrenched was that we have historically 'had' more PMs than can be reasonaby expected given the low proportion of the overall population that we represent.

It's somewhat moot though, since it has little to do with the OP.

I consider myself to be Scottish.

I myself do not believe that any such thing as a 'British' identity exists, unless it is to the same extent that a 'European' identity exists. Each member nation has maintained their own culture and tradition. No doubt many people South of the border would disagree but they are, in my opinion, simply confusing their own 'Englishness' with 'Britishness'.

I think lack of Britishness is over-hyped a little, personally I do feel British, I also feel Welsh and don't find a conflict between them, no more than I consider myself an inhabitant of my town with a rivalry against neighbouring towns etc.

Most noticeably when I've been in other countries and met other Brits from a range of places around the country there were generally shared values and identity between us.

Most of the difference gets played up around sporting events, a lot of which I find to be banter between fans. England, or the regions should have an assembly if they want them (I think they rejected them a while back). I'm not overly bothered about the Welsh Assembly, I can see the sense in it as much as for different parts of England, namely them having different needs, but more connects than divides I feel.

Long live the Union and Empire etc etc.

Any attempt for racial purity in the UK is dead in the water before it even starts. You put your finger on it with the Scots race coming over from Ireland to invade and settle northern Britain. There is no such thing as a pure race on this island, we are so mixed up with angles, saxons, celts, irish, vikings, normans, romans and not least whoever was on the island before the celts came over from europe.

Whoops and I forgot to mention your Picts too!

Nah, we had good reason to choose the Picts (as opposed to any other racial group within the British Isles) as the one to revive. Unfortunately, I can't really tell you what that reason is without taking a huge step toward identifying myself. That might seem like a crap excuse but, given the number of highly illegal acts I've admitted to on this forum, it's an excuse I feel able to stand by.

More to the point, you are wrong about British genetics. The various invasions have had very little impact on the gene pool. The whole 'Pictish' thing relates to the fact that the supposed distinctions between the English and the various 'Celtic' peoples are a matter of politically-motivated fiction.

Hence we get foolish views like those expressed by 'FenianBastards' above.

Nah, we had good reason to choose the Picts (as opposed to any other racial group within the British Isles) as the one to revive. Unfortunately, I can't really tell you what that reason is without taking a huge step toward identifying myself. That might seem like a crap excuse but, given the number of highly illegal acts I've admitted to on this forum, it's an excuse I feel able to stand by.

More to the point, you are wrong about British genetics. The various invasions have had very little impact on the gene pool. The whole 'Pictish' thing relates to the fact that the supposed distinctions between the English and the various 'Celtic' peoples are a matter of politically-motivated fiction.

Hence we get foolish views like those expressed by 'FenianBastards' above.

Ahhh I know who you are now, and where you live!

You used to live in an artist colony in my neck of the woods(Newcross gate) You have thick almost black curly hair, play the fiddle and have a mean, if slightly odd, singing voice. Nowadays you have gone back to some remote tiny windswept island up north, and we miss you terribly down here!

I don't watch American football and don't watch American Idol.

I do cook cheeseburgers (over charcoal).

Quite right. My point was that the United States are not remotely as homogenous as people seem to think.

Quite right. My point was that the United States are not remotely as homogenous as people seem to think.

heh can I steal the last bit of that sentance from you?

'....people seem to think'

you know not all of us are stereo typical Americans...we do have a culture

The kind you keep in a petri dish doesn't count.

American Football, American Idol and cheeseburgers?

Honestly, there isn't as much as the hardcore American nationalists would have us believe.

Just the American football. Idol is based on the British show Pop Idol, and hamburgers are based on German cooking. Specifically, from the town of Hamburg.

Quite right. My point was that the United States are not remotely as homogenous as people seem to think.

I don't think that people think of America as one homogeneous blob. It's just that they think of one particular part of America as "America," and the rest as whatever its locality is.

But we get that here too. People in Texas often call themselves "real Americans," as opposed to what they see as unAmerican liberal intellectuals in places like Massachusetts and San Francisco.

I know that when I was in Ireland visiting my cousin, he introduced me to the French foreign exchange students as "my cousin from America." They acknowledged this with their stereotypical nasal grunt. When the conversation brought up the fact that I was specifically from New York they became much more friendly. And when they introduced me to their friends as "fngskdsojifow New York fjokewajfo..." they acknowledged the introduction with a fascinated "aaaahh, New York."

fuck the english:sniper:

Are you offering?:p

Trying to resolve a question of nationality by reference to a question of race is less than helpful. You define 'black' and I'll define 'Scottish', okay?
Sorry. I wasn't sure if anyone would get the reference. You see, Bill Clinton is sometimes called America's first black president because black voters loved him, and he stacked his cabinet full of more than have ever been seen before. Blair has done the same thing, only among Scots. He's not Scottish himself (or at least not self-identified), but he can't live without Scottish support, and a large part of his cabinet is Scottish.

fuck the english:sniper:
What a wonderful second post.

......a large part of his cabinet is Scottish.

Bwhaahah yeah single malts!:eek:

The kind you keep in a petri dish doesn't count.

What about yogurt?

fuck the english:sniper:
One post too late, you mewling fuckwit. Can't be tolerated after the first post. Ever.



Oh and the fact that we don't have a pan-British identity is because Britain is made of 3 different nations, each with different class structures, regional differences and other such things.

Plus we really don't like flag waving that much, overall.

Makes you look a complete tit if you actually have to say to the world "WOOOO OUR NATION IS GREAT!" instead of it being completely self-evident.

See the eastern bloc.

I know that when I was in Ireland visiting my cousin, he introduced me to the French foreign exchange students as "my cousin from America." They acknowledged this with their stereotypical nasal grunt. When the conversation brought up the fact that I was specifically from New York they became much more friendly. And when they introduced me to their friends as "fngskdsojifow New York fjokewajfo..." they acknowledged the introduction with a fascinated "aaaahh, New York."

"fngskdsojifow New York fjokewajfo..."

Lol I'm taking french and thats what it all sounds like to me too :D

I don't think that people think of America as one homogeneous blob. It's just that they think of one particular part of America as "America," and the rest as whatever its locality is.

But we get that here too. People in Texas often call themselves "real Americans," as opposed to what they see as unAmerican liberal intellectuals in places like Massachusetts and San Francisco.

I know that when I was in Ireland visiting my cousin, he introduced me to the French foreign exchange students as "my cousin from America." They acknowledged this with their stereotypical nasal grunt. When the conversation brought up the fact that I was specifically from New York they became much more friendly. And when they introduced me to their friends as "fngskdsojifow New York fjokewajfo..." they acknowledged the introduction with a fascinated "aaaahh, New York."

I think you're about right on the first point. The idea that whatever outside your door is "America". This is what I was talking about, in that many people look outside their door and imagine that things are pretty much like that all over. I had a friend today tell me about how terribly the American economy was doing. I corrected him and told him that the US economy isn't doing to bad, just the Michigan one. Things like that.

I just moved back to Michigan from France this week (sadly) and when I lived there I never once introduced myself as being from les Etats-Unis, I always introduced myself as being from le Michigan, which I think helped quite a bit.

Ahhh I know who you are now, and where you live!

You used to live in an artist colony in my neck of the woods(Newcross gate) You have thick almost black curly hair, play the fiddle and have a mean, if slightly odd, singing voice. Nowadays you have gone back to some remote tiny windswept island up north, and we miss you terribly down here!

Oh man, I'd done such a thorough job of covering my tracks, then I went a blew it!

Well, since you're here - how's Dave doing? Haven't heard from him since he joined the paras.

We don't need a Britain Day. That's really something only tourists do.

I second the view that there is no real 'British' culture other than the shared language of English; and the history of brutal and frequently drunken imperialism.

In addition, flag-waving makes me cringe.

I further add that I support the idea of a Federal Republic with semi-independent states - England, Scotland, N.Ireland, Wales; Cornwall.

It is also hilarious that England alone does not have its own assembly or parliament; thus leading to the 'West Lothian Question' and the insanity of Scottish MPs voting through things like top-up fees that do not affect Scottish students (their constituents).

It's about damn time that England got its own parliament; and Westminster becomes the British Parliament dealing in Foreign Affairs and little else

EDIT:

Oh, and Anthony Blair is a Scot. Born, educated, and lived there. He's Scottish. Christ, I can call myself Scots and I was born in Liverpool...! Oh, and Blair's a damnable papist grumble mumble whinge...

I second the view that there is no real 'British' culture other than the shared language of English; and the history of brutal and frequently drunken imperialism.

In addition, flag-waving makes me cringe.

I further add that I support the idea of a Federal Republic with semi-independent states - England, Scotland, N.Ireland, Wales; Cornwall.

It is also hilarious that England alone does not have its own assembly or parliament; thus leading to the 'West Lothian Question' and the insanity of Scottish MPs voting through things like top-up fees that do not affect Scottish students (their constituents).

It's about damn time that England got its own parliament; and Westminster becomes the British Parliament dealing in Foreign Affairs and little else

EDIT:

Oh, and Anthony Blair is a Scot. Born, educated, and lived there. He's Scottish. Christ, I can call myself Scots and I was born in Liverpool...! Oh, and Blair's a damnable papist grumble mumble whinge...

GFT:)

GFT? :confused:

GFT? :confused:

Ooopss....QFT

Quoted for truth

I support this only if it entails excessively drinking tea made by Indian slaves, saying 'Good show chap' often and wearing top hats and monocles.

Silly poms, just look at the Ashes, you have nothing to be proud of;)

Aha! Thank you. :)

And just because you QFT'd me... :fluffle:

I second the view that there is no real 'British' culture other than the shared language of English; and the history of brutal and frequently drunken imperialism.

In addition, flag-waving makes me cringe.

I further add that I support the idea of a Federal Republic with semi-independent states - England, Scotland, N.Ireland, Wales; Cornwall.

It is also hilarious that England alone does not have its own assembly or parliament; thus leading to the 'West Lothian Question' and the insanity of Scottish MPs voting through things like top-up fees that do not affect Scottish students (their constituents).

It's about damn time that England got its own parliament; and Westminster becomes the British Parliament dealing in Foreign Affairs and little else

EDIT:

Oh, and Anthony Blair is a Scot. Born, educated, and lived there. He's Scottish. Christ, I can call myself Scots and I was born in Liverpool...! Oh, and Blair's a damnable papist grumble mumble whinge...
Have another QFT.

Oh man, I'd done such a thorough job of covering my tracks, then I went a blew it!

Well, since you're here - how's Dave doing? Haven't heard from him since he joined the paras.



Dave is fine as far as I know(I don't get on well with squaddies) but what about you, I'm more intereted in how you are getting on with that Ginger bit you absconded with?;)

Ooopss....QFT

Quoted for truth

As opposed to Goated for truth?

Oh and the fact that we don't have a pan-British identity is because Britain is made of 3 different nations, each with different class structures, regional differences and other such things.

Four different nations in Britain, no? Three in Great Britain, I'll give you that.

I support this only if it entails excessively drinking tea made by Indian slaves, saying 'Good show chap' often and wearing top hats and monocles.

Silly poms, just look at the Ashes, you have nothing to be proud of;)

We have a fine tradition of never quite gaining sporting dominance. We're sports greatest nearly men, second placers, applaud politely as the other team picks up the trophy. That whole do anything to win ruthlessness malarky is just not British old sport.

Well it’s the Trooping of the Colour today. Containing Welsh guards, Irish guards, Scots guards, Grenadier guards, Coldstream guards and the horse guards parading in front of her Majesty. If that’s not part of a British identity then I don’t know what is.

No matter how many supposedly distinct cultures you have in your country, they can all always agree on wanting to be drunker more often.

Forget 'Britain Day' or whatever, you could have a 'World Day' based on that.

Despite never having been there, I don't think anyone in the UK or anywhere would complain about that.

But then again, I'm pretty drunk right now, so....

Also, what's up with this guy::gundge:

Novermber 5th.

We're still not sure if we're celebrating that Guido FAILED to blow up parliament or honouring the fact he TRIED. :pIf you consider that both Mr Fawkes and the King were Catholic and the vast majority of parliament at the time weren't then I think you have your answer... But history would have been so different, and perhaps more interesting had he succeded. I think the main message of the holiday is that 'it's the winning that counts not the damn taking part - we burn losers at the stake, you hear?!'

1. I know it's far more complex than that. But I find that complicated frameworks are often just a transition step. Besides, England and Scotland, at least, share very little other than a language and a Queen, and I'm not sure of the latter's effectiveness.
2. Sorry about Northern Ireland. It's just a sad, complicated story, and actually, I know very little about devolution there. It just formed a new government, but does that have any real power, or is it all still with Parliament?Don't quote me on this, but on balance I believe the Northern Ireland Assembly holds more power than the Scottish Parliament.

Dave is fine as far as I know(I don't get on well with squaddies) but what about you, I'm more intereted in how you are getting on with that Ginger bit you absconded with?;)

We were doing fine for a while, but a few years back I had to move again - because of the job, you know. She had to stay put, though, because she'd just started running a nursery school. It turned out that we just couldn't make it work as a long-distance relationship.

It's a shame, but what can you do?

Novermber 5th.

We're still not sure if we're celebrating that Guido FAILED to blow up parliament or honouring the fact he TRIED. :p

its both