NationStates Jolt Archive

Alvaro de Soto's end of mission report is a very interesting read. It (rightfully, in my opinion) criticize all sides of the conflict, and most parties involved; Israel, Palestine, the UN, the US, everybody.

Even if this is just his personal feelings, a lot of it rings true. And after two years "on the ground" (including a long diplomatic career), he's got a lot of insight on what's going on over there.

You can find the article here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,2101677,00.html).

But if you really care about the situation, and you're not completely blind to criticizm of "your" side I advise you to read the complete report found here:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2007/06/12/DeSotoReport.pdf

Any thoughts?

It's nice to have a thread that isn't "ebil muslims!!" and "it's the j00z". I've always said that everybody's at fault to some degree.

I read it.

I still don't see how you can sit down at a table with Hamas and "negotiate" in good faith if their primary goal is to destroy Israel and drive the Jews into the sea.

If that's off the table, and it remains as the primary goal of Hamas, how are you supposed to negotiate?

As far as the embargo is concerned, Hamas is a terrorist organization, and the people doing the embargo agree on that. I think it was supposed to send the message that we're not interested in negotiating with terrorists, until they give that up.

Not that Hamas is into anything except resolving all problems by killing people and throwing them off buildings, and dragging them from hospitals and riddling them with bullets.

It would have been simple enough for Hamas to at least give lip service to renouncing their primary goal, and becoming a more political and less terrorist organization. As it is, they don't seem to be willing to really negotiate - and because of that, Israel doesn't really have any real incentive to go to the table.

The report itself is rather late. At this point, the Palestinians are too busy killing each other to bother with talking with Israel about anything.

It's nice to have a thread that isn't "ebil muslims!!" and "it's the j00z". I've always said that everybody's at fault to some degree.

Indeed. No side is blameless and no side does enough in this conflict. And it's always the civilians on both sides that end up suffering.

I read it.

I still don't see how you can sit down at a table with Hamas and "negotiate" in good faith if their primary goal is to destroy Israel and drive the Jews into the sea.
Yet Israel has never fulfilled its obligations either. So to return the point - how could they sit and "negotiate" in good faith when the occupation and building of settlements continue?

If that's off the table, and it remains as the primary goal of Hamas, how are you supposed to negotiate?
How would we know, since it hasn't been tried...

As far as the embargo is concerned, Hamas is a terrorist organization, and the people doing the embargo agree on that. I think it was supposed to send the message that we're not interested in negotiating with terrorists, until they give that up.
And thus, the "short-sighted" results of sending a message destabilize the PA and cause the suffering of millions of people, drive the area towards civil war and may force the Israelis to return. Devastating consequences indeed, and at a higher cost then if the embargo hadn't been placed on them.

Not that Hamas is into anything except resolving all problems by killing people and throwing them off buildings, and dragging them from hospitals and riddling them with bullets.
No, no... Of course not. [/blinders]

It would have been simple enough for Hamas to at least give lip service to renouncing their primary goal, and becoming a more political and less terrorist organization. As it is, they don't seem to be willing to really negotiate - and because of that, Israel doesn't really have any real incentive to go to the table.
Neither side seems very willing to negtiate.

The report itself is rather late. At this point, the Palestinians are too busy killing each other to bother with talking with Israel about anything.
The report was not meant to leak out. And indeed, the consequenses for Israel is as of now still untold. They'll probably reap what they sow this time around as well. Unfortunately.

They tried to get Hamas to drop the "destroy Israel and kill the Jews" thing.

That was tried. Hamas didn't want to do it.

You can't negotiate in good faith if that's your opponent's primary goal, and they are unwilling to negotiate that or drop it.

It makes anything else you agree to irrelevant.

They tried to get Hamas to drop the "destroy Israel and kill the Jews" thing.

That was tried. Hamas didn't want to do it.

You can't negotiate in good faith if that's your opponent's primary goal, and they are unwilling to negotiate that or drop it.

It makes anything else you agree to irrelevant.

How did they try? They demanded, they didn't negotiate.

Though Hamas is a problem, as is their charter. But I don't discount that they can evolve, as laid out in the report.

I fail to see how the USA is at fault here.

How did they try? They demanded, they didn't negotiate.

Though Hamas is a problem, as is their charter. But I don't discount that they can evolve, as laid out in the report.

Hamas has expressed on numerous occasions that it isn't even a topic to be negotiated. They want Israel destroyed, and the Jews dead - period. End of story. Non-negotiable.

Tell me, how are you supposed to "negotiate" about that when Hamas says up front they will NEVER negotiate or even discuss that?

I fail to see how the USA is at fault here.

Initiating the embargo, pressuring the UN and thus destroying the credibility the organisations have as impartial brokers and envoys in the region, and the overt support for Israel (as in lack of condemnation of Israeli transgressions and failures to live up to their obligations), and by not placing enough effort and resources to help the peace process along... Etc etc.

But don't worry, it's a collective failure that includes in a large part the EU, Russia and the UN.

Yet Israel has never fulfilled its obligations either. So to return the point - how could they sit and "negotiate" in good faith when the occupation and building of settlements continue?

Hamas has expressed on numerous occasions that it isn't even a topic to be negotiated. They want Israel destroyed, and the Jews dead - period. End of story. Non-negotiable.

Tell me, how are you supposed to "negotiate" about that when Hamas says up front they will NEVER negotiate or even discuss that?

RO: you've still not acknowledged the point that Israel is also in breach of agreements, you pose your argument solely as hamas being the uncooperative party when it is both (all) sides being uncooperative

RO: you've still not acknowledged the point that Israel is also in breach of agreements, you pose your argument solely as hamas being the uncooperative party when it is both (all) sides being uncooperative

Just because I haven't addressed it doesn't mean that I am solely saying that hamas is solely at fault.

Curiously bad logic on your part.

Israel has the settlement problem. Yet, they've also completely retreated from Gaza (including their settlements there), and all that did was invite rocket fire into civilian areas.

I do have a problem with the targeted assassination thing - if you're fighting a war, ok - if you're trying to negotiate, not ok.

The walls violate no agreements.

However, regardless of anything Israel has done, while it could have come to an agreement with Fatah (now on the proverbial ropes), it is an impossibility to deal with Hamas.

Hamas will not negotiate or discuss removing the destruction of Israel as their goal. Even if you try to bring it up, they won't negotiate it.

Period.

So it doesn't really matter now what Israel does. It looks like they're content to sit on their side of the wall, and watch the Palestinians kill each other.

Hamas has expressed on numerous occasions that it isn't even a topic to be negotiated. They want Israel destroyed, and the Jews dead - period. End of story. Non-negotiable.

Tell me, how are you supposed to "negotiate" about that when Hamas says up front they will NEVER negotiate or even discuss that?
You get them to endorse the idea of democracy - like they did when they chose to partake in the election - for a start. You talk to them. It's worked in other situations in other countries - why refuse to make any effort in trying it now?

And even closer - talks are being held with Hezbollah. Why not try to talk to Hamas?

Get a hold of the pragmatics, and shut out the idealogues. Maybe work through the Muslim Brotherhood.

Regardless, if Hamas indeed should prove to be impossible to negotiate with (which we won't know until a real effort has been made - and disregard the propaganda and publically stated vitriol) then support Fatah, strengthen Abu Mazen and the people you can deal with. Help them build a viable alternative before the next election. Make them score points - for example, you can "give in" to pressure from Fatah members and send the taxes Israel is holding back and make a clear statement that Fatah gets results that equal betterment for the common Palestinian.

I read it.

I still don't see how you can sit down at a table with Hamas and "negotiate" in good faith if their primary goal is to destroy Israel and drive the Jews into the sea.

If that's off the table, and it remains as the primary goal of Hamas, how are you supposed to negotiate?

As far as the embargo is concerned, Hamas is a terrorist organization, and the people doing the embargo agree on that. I think it was supposed to send the message that we're not interested in negotiating with terrorists, until they give that up.

Not that Hamas is into anything except resolving all problems by killing people and throwing them off buildings, and dragging them from hospitals and riddling them with bullets.

It would have been simple enough for Hamas to at least give lip service to renouncing their primary goal, and becoming a more political and less terrorist organization. As it is, they don't seem to be willing to really negotiate - and because of that, Israel doesn't really have any real incentive to go to the table.

The report itself is rather late. At this point, the Palestinians are too busy killing each other to bother with talking with Israel about anything.

They tried to get Hamas to drop the "destroy Israel and kill the Jews" thing.

That was tried. Hamas didn't want to do it.

You can't negotiate in good faith if that's your opponent's primary goal, and they are unwilling to negotiate that or drop it.

It makes anything else you agree to irrelevant.

Hamas has expressed on numerous occasions that it isn't even a topic to be negotiated. They want Israel destroyed, and the Jews dead - period. End of story. Non-negotiable.

Tell me, how are you supposed to "negotiate" about that when Hamas says up front they will NEVER negotiate or even discuss that?

however did i get the idea you were presenting a one-faceted argument? hmmm...

curious

You get them to endorse the idea of democracy - like they did when they chose to partake in the election - for a start. You talk to them. It's worked in other situations in other countries - why refuse to make any effort in trying it now?

And even closer - talks are being held with Hezbollah. Why not try to talk to Hamas?

Get a hold of the pragmatics, and shut out the idealogues. Maybe work through the Muslim Brotherhood.

Regardless, if Hamas indeed should prove to be impossible to negotiate with (which we won't know until a real effort has been made - and disregard the propaganda and publically stated vitriol) then support Fatah, strengthen Abu Mazen and the people you can deal with. Help them build a viable alternative before the next election. Make them score points - for example, you can "give in" to pressure from Fatah members and send the taxes Israel is holding back and make a clear statement that Fatah gets results that equal betterment for the common Palestinian.

In a few days, Fatah will no longer exist.

In a few days, Fatah will no longer exist.

I hope you're wrong, but if civil war finally breaks out then you might be right. And Israel will be worse off for it, since they'll have to re-assume all the responsibilities the PA had. Duties of an occupier and all that.

I hope you're wrong, but if civil war finally breaks out then you might be right. And Israel will be worse off for it, since they'll have to re-assume all the responsibilities the PA had. Duties of an occupier and all that.

I don't know why you're in denial. It has already broken out.

Israel won't have to re-occupy anything. They have a wall.

The following videos refer to Palestine and Lebanon:

Uncool Facts about Israel (http://youtube.com/watch?v=GzNPZf-5aO4&mode=related&search=)
George Galloway on Lebanon War (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEH6yG7hybk)
Peace - The Israeli Way (http://youtube.com/watch?v=dlYbk7obC-M)

Down with Israel!

I don't know why you're in denial. It has already broken out.
Not quite, but close.


Israel won't have to re-occupy anything. They have a wall.
...where?

And they're still the occupiers, so they will have to step in if the PA dissolves. As per the Oslo accords.

Not quite, but close.


...where?

And they're still the occupiers, so they will have to step in if the PA dissolves. As per the Oslo accords.

Considering that Fatah, the other party to the accords, will imminently cease to exist, and the world press will castigate Israel if they step foot back in Gaza (as they have when Israel even steps in momentarily to stop rocket fire), I wouldn't step in if I was Israel.

There's no way to go back in without incurring international wrath.

Considering that Fatah, the other party to the accords, will imminently cease to exist, and the world press will castigate Israel if they step foot back in Gaza (as they have when Israel even steps in momentarily to stop rocket fire), I wouldn't step in if I was Israel.

There's no way to go back in without incurring international wrath.

Actually, being the occupier, there isn't really any way to stay out without incurring international wrath either. It's a lose-lose scenario for Israel, which is why they should (at least surreptitiously) support Fatah in this struggle.

And pfft! As if Israel cares about "international wrath" :rolleyes:

Actually, being the occupier, there isn't really any way to stay out without incurring international wrath either. It's a lose-lose scenario for Israel, which is why they should (at least surreptitiously) support Fatah in this struggle.

And pfft! As if Israel cares about "international wrath" :rolleyes:

It's easier just to make the wall higher and thicker.

It's easier just to make the wall higher and thicker.
Again, what wall?

And the rocket attacks from Gaza will probably not diminish, and Israel isn't likely to accept a terrorist anarchy / stronghold next door either.

Again, what wall?

And the rocket attacks from Gaza will probably not diminish, and Israel isn't likely to accept a terrorist anarchy / stronghold next door either.

Well, it's kind of hard to go in on the side of Fatah, even though they are comparatively easier to negotiate with.

First, Hamas is bound to see this as an option. What do you think they'll do with Fatah senior people they catch?

Kill them - just as they have been doing so far this week. Making sure - by riddling their bodies with bullets, or throwing them off buildings.

Hamas will move to preempt this. They will also galvanize the public (by fear or coercion if necessary) to resist Israeli incursion into Gaza. That's pretty easy.

Sure, some Palestinians just want a break from the idiocy and death - but they are a silent and unarmed portion of a community dominated by violence and death and intimidation.

Israel can't really solve that problem - not without taking over public education, all government services, disarming (if necessary killing) Hamas members, and going through a few decades of re-education and what amounts to nation-building.

If Israel wants a negotiation partner it has to build one. One doesn't exist at this time.

See Iraq to see how difficult nation-building is.

Well, it's kind of hard to go in on the side of Fatah, even though they are comparatively easier to negotiate with.

First, Hamas is bound to see this as an option. What do you think they'll do with Fatah senior people they catch?

Kill them - just as they have been doing so far this week. Making sure - by riddling their bodies with bullets, or throwing them off buildings.

Hamas will move to preempt this. They will also galvanize the public (by fear or coercion if necessary) to resist Israeli incursion into Gaza. That's pretty easy.

Sure, some Palestinians just want a break from the idiocy and death - but they are a silent and unarmed portion of a community dominated by violence and death and intimidation.
Arms, targeted killings, money, transfer of funds, willingness to negotiate and bargain... All these things can be done, and will support Fatah in the fight against Hamas. But hopefully it won't turn into a civil war.


Israel can't really solve that problem - not without taking over public education, all government services, disarming (if necessary killing) Hamas members, and going through a few decades of re-education and what amounts to nation-building.

If Israel wants a negotiation partner it has to build one. One doesn't exist at this time.

See Iraq to see how difficult nation-building is.
Yeah.

Too bad it'll be thrust upon Israel if civil war breaks out - and if Fatah is defeated. It'll spell out misery for both sides.

I still don't see how you can sit down at a table with Hamas and "negotiate" in good faith if their primary goal is to destroy Israel and drive the Jews into the sea..

....according to you and the right.



As far as the embargo is concerned, Hamas is a terrorist organization, and the people doing the embargo agree on that. I think it was supposed to send the message that we're not interested in negotiating with terrorists, until they give that up...

....regardless of the fact its armed resistance against an illegal occupation and colonisation that continues only because the US blocks lawful sanctions against it.



Not that Hamas is into anything except resolving all problems by killing people and throwing them off buildings, and dragging them from hospitals and riddling them with bullets....

A Gruesome and brutal method which, despite its primitive nature, still is less lethal to civillian life than firing rockets into apartment buildings.......



It would have been simple enough for Hamas to at least give lip service to renouncing their primary goal, and becoming a more political and less terrorist organization. As it is, they don't seem to be willing to really negotiate - and because of that, Israel doesn't really have any real incentive to go to the table.....

Why would Israel negotiate with anyone when the US has undermined the Palestinians and put no pressure on it? The laugh? Their casualties are minimal, their hold on the West Bank and Arab east Jerusalem is slowly but surrely consolidated...Its every tin-pot expansionists dream.


The report itself is rather late. At this point, the Palestinians are too busy killing each other to bother with talking with Israel about anything.

The report could have come out a year ago, and it would have made no difference.

Sure, some Palestinians just want a break from the idiocy and death - but they are a silent and unarmed portion of a community dominated by violence and death and intimidation.



....which is why you can watch footage of them protesting at the faction fighting, top right of the page...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6748811.stm

....which is why you can watch footage of them protesting at the faction fighting, top right of the page...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6748811.stm

Like that's making a difference.

Hamas killed 24 people (at least the bodies they counted) today.

Protesting didn't stop a single attack.

Why would Israel negotiate with anyone when the US has undermined the Palestinians and put no pressure on it? The laugh? Their casualties are minimal, their hold on the West Bank and Arab east Jerusalem is slowly but surrely consolidated...Its every tin-pot expansionists dream.

Well, appart from the "demographic bomb" and the supporters of the One-State solution that, given time, will threathen the existence of Israel as a Jewish state and Jerusalem as a city where Hamas isn't voted into power.

Israel needs to figure out a way to make peace.

Like that's making a difference.

Hamas killed 24 people (at least the bodies they counted) today.

Protesting didn't stop a single attack.

It doesnt make a difference when people protest against anything over there, be it Israel or some Palestinian faction.

It was aimed at Hamas and Fatah. It contradicts your statement "some Palestinians just want a break from the idiocy and death - but they are a silent and unarmed portion of a community dominated by violence and death and intimidation." They seem neither silent nor intimidated (particularily considering the conditions they actually went out to protest under).

I wasn't aware Fatah weren't killing people, by the way.

You haven't addressed any of the sections of the report that show how the US was using and seeking to exploit the division.

nice try at dodging though.

Seems to be a civil war now, all officially-like :(

The Syrian ambassador to the UN was very interested in debating the report on CNN earlier.

Actually, being the occupier, there isn't really any way to stay out without incurring international wrath either. It's a lose-lose scenario for Israel, which is why they should (at least surreptitiously) support Fatah in this struggle.

And pfft! As if Israel cares about "international wrath" :rolleyes:

Israel can't support Fatah. The instant that Israel does anything to help Fatah, Hamas will have won.

Hamas will get on TV and say that Fatah is nothing but a puppet of the evil Jewish conspiracy.

Israel can't support Fatah. The instant that Israel does anything to help Fatah, Hamas will have won.

Hamas will get on TV and say that Fatah is nothing but a puppet of the evil Jewish conspiracy.

Then Hamas has won.

The Bush administration and Israel are openly backing forces loyal to Abbas, a relative moderate whose calls for an end to the fighting have been ignored by both sides. The Bush administration is sending $40 million to train and provide nonlethal equipment to forces loyal to Abbas, who told reporters Wednesday that it is "madness that is going on in Gaza."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/14/AR2007061400145_2.html

Washington Posts take on the report:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/13/AR2007061302356.html

Then Hamas has won.

At least on Gaza. Not so in the West Bank. Fatah can win on their own there.

If Israel supports Fatah by entering the fight, then Fatah may lose the West Bank to Hamas.

Hamas is weak in the West Bank. If Israel gives Hamas PR ammo, they may gain strength there.

Personally, I don't think a negiotiation would work, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't try.