NationStates Jolt Archive

Isn't as easy as you think...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=29c_1181548597

And yes, even to the people who pay me money for instruction, here in the US, I sort you out in groups - those who suck, and those who don't.

If you suck, then I often recommend that you stop the lessons, and sell your firearm, because it's just not worth pursuing any further.

I guess because these are recruits in the new Iraqi Army, they'll have to keep taking the lessons until they get it.

BTW, the target in question is a 25m zeroing target. They are using AK-47s to shoot at the little black silhouette from 25m away.

Notice that it's not as easy as it looks, especially if you suck.

People pay you for lessons?

Wow... I've always thought of shooting/marksmanship as something passed from father to son.

25meters with the AK? I can do that with mine. :D

People pay you for lessons?

Wow... I've always thought of shooting/marksmanship as something passed from father to son.

25meters with the AK? I can do that with mine. :D

In this current Age of the Common Man (read as: wuss), passing it from father to son is rare.

People pay to learn how to shoot.

Most of my customers are police (who get rudimentary instruction from the government), and women.

Most of my customers are police
...aha.

That does really explain a lot about quite a few things, doesn't it. You should have shared this with the class sooner. :)

In this current Age of the Common Man (read as: wuss), passing it from father to son is rare.

People pay to learn how to shoot.

Most of my customers are police (who get rudimentary instruction from the government), and women.

You're asking for an argument with that one lol

Hold on... I don't get the point of the thread... anyone cares enough to explain?

In this current Age of the Common Man (read as: wuss), passing it from father to son is rare.

People pay to learn how to shoot.

Most of my customers are police (who get rudimentary instruction from the government), and women.

That explains why guns aren't seen as something to be respected, but rather, "LAWL! AR15 SO KEWL! LETS SHOOT STUFF!"

Hold on... I don't get the point of the thread... anyone cares enough to explain?

Too many people seem to believe:

1. It's easy to shoot
2. It's easy to teach people to shoot
3. The AK-47 is easy to shoot

Culled from opinions over the past few days...

Liveleak, ugh.

But like, to run in a subway station and shoot on the crowd is easier to do than shoot a black square 25m away, isn't it?

Anyways... if you need me, I'll be elsewhere.

Dont know shooting most of your standard "country" guns (.22 30 aught 6,16 12 and 10 gauge shot guns as well as some pistol work) it has never been really a hard thing for me to do but I have been doing it sense I was young

But like, to run in a subway station and shoot on the crowd is easier to do than shoot a black square 25m away, isn't it?

Anyways... if you need me, I'll be elsewhere.

If that were true, why do police miss with most of their shots at an average engagement distance of 8 feet (less than 2 meters)?

Hold on... I don't get the point of the thread... anyone cares enough to explain?

It illustrates the ignorance of anti-gun nuts, mall-ninja's and CS-kiddies.

Shooting is actually quite difficult, like most SPORTS ;)

If hitting a target is difficult, imagine how hard it is to actually kill someone (or even hit them).

It illustrates the ignorance of anti-gun nuts, mall-ninja's and CS-kiddies.

Shooting is actually quite difficult, like most SPORTS ;)

If hitting a target is difficult, imagine how hard it is to actually kill someone (or even hit them).

Pfft I think competition shooting could be hard but they call anything "sports" these days

Some day they will call posting on a forum a sport and I will be in the running :)

If that were true, why do police miss with most of their shots at an average engagement distance of 8 feet (less than 2 meters)?

Stress situation, moving target, shooting on the draw? *shrugs* i dunno, most I've done is air-rifle shooting for fun with Scouts (I tend to do OK but the range is short and you have ages to sight up in).

I'm saving up for a firearms license though so I'll find out for real sooner or later I guess.

Pfft I think competition shooting could be hard but they call anything "sports" these days

Some day they will call posting on a forum a sport and I will be in the running :)

Try the biathlon, or any shooting event that involves running and shooting.

Then come back and tell me it's not a sport.

Better yet, if you're out of shape, try shooting in the formal standing position for an hour or so.

Not remotely as easy as you think.

Some day they will call posting on a forum a sport and I will be in the running :)
Just be ready to face some strong opposition. :D

If that were true, why do police miss with most of their shots at an average engagement distance of 8 feet (less than 2 meters)?

Eight feet is 2.4 meters.

A meter is roughly 39.5 inches. Eight feet is 96 inches. Do the math.

Eight feet is 2.4 meters.

A meter is roughly 39.5 inches. Eight feet is 96 inches. Do the math.

That makes it even worse.

That makes it even worse.

Wait how does making it almost a meter further than you claimed make it worse? Or are you referring to your math skills?

op

Why do you feel the need to talk?

Once again RO attempts to disproove a position that nobody actually seems to be holding.

To use the vernacular, you're shooting at a target that isn't there.

Isn't as easy as you think...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=29c_1181548597

And yes, even to the people who pay me money for instruction, here in the US, I sort you out in groups - those who suck, and those who don't.

If you suck, then I often recommend that you stop the lessons, and sell your firearm, because it's just not worth pursuing any further.

I guess because these are recruits in the new Iraqi Army, they'll have to keep taking the lessons until they get it.

BTW, the target in question is a 25m zeroing target. They are using AK-47s to shoot at the little black silhouette from 25m away.

Notice that it's not as easy as it looks, especially if you suck.
Of course they suck. It's cultural.

The whole damned place sucks.

If that were true, why do police miss with most of their shots at an average engagement distance of 8 feet (less than 2 meters)?

In my opinion most 9mm handguns are not very accurate even at close range. You throw in a moving target, stress and enviroment your going to get those results. Even in the military with accurate rifles people miss a large percentage of their shots in combat. A good marksman on the range doesn't always translate to good shooting in the field.

People pay you for lessons?


Pissing in the wind and talking through your ass are not skills easily learned. It takes a natural like RO to help the less 'gifted' along.

Over the last few days, RO has taught us the following:

1. It'd be bad if nuclear bombs went off.
2. An unqualified blind-man shouldn't be allowed to design bridges.
3. Guns do not fire homing bullets.

I'm learning a lot from these threads.

The only trick to shooting a rifle is adjusting the sites for the individual. Everyone sees just a little different so the sites for one will not be correct for another. In the Olympics and other shooting contests they use special rifles and cartridges that are even more consistent. That makes rifle shooting dependent on how much money someone is willing to invest.

The biathlon is a little different because it involves heavy breathing.

A pistol is a little different because they are by nature very inaccurate. (Although one can buy those that are far better than others) For that reason I really don't understand "concealed carry" laws. A pistol is pretty worthless beyond "point blank" range.

Over the last few days, RO has taught us the following:

1. It'd be bad if nuclear bombs went off.
2. An unqualified blind-man shouldn't be allowed to design bridges.
3. Guns do not fire homing bullets.

I'm learning a lot from these threads.

I for one look forward to his thread on how consuming poison is harmful to your health.

What makes you think he's a natural? What makes you think I'm not?

[

I never referred to you, and indeed my post referred to about the only two areas of knowledge that RO would be qualified to teach in, and they were not shooting. I suggest you reread the post.

Yeah... Sorry about that, I think I deleted my post about 2 seconds before you posted this one.


These things happen.

I never referred to you, and indeed my post referred to about the only two areas of knowledge that RO would be qualified to teach in, and they were not shooting. I suggest you reread the post.

Yeah... Sorry about that, I think I deleted my post about 2 seconds before you posted this one.

People pay you for lessons?

Wow... I've always thought of shooting/marksmanship as something passed from father to son.

25meters with the AK? I can do that with mine. :D

My father didn't own a firearm, so he was never able to teach me any marksmanship skills. I think that's a big reason I'd be one of the guys walking over to that increasingly large group, in the video. :(

But like, to run in a subway station and shoot on the crowd is easier to do than shoot a black square 25m away, isn't it?

Anyways... if you need me, I'll be elsewhere.

I had to took 25 (really) slow, aimed shots at a target 10 yards (30 feet) away during my pistol permit course (5 with .22, 10 with .38 special, and 10 with 9mm). It looked like we were right on top of the target, and I thought I would hit it every time. I only hit the target 8 times (3 times with the .38 special and 5 times with the 9mm), so it's not as easy as it looks.

Try the biathlon, or any shooting event that involves running and shooting.

Then come back and tell me it's not a sport.

Better yet, if you're out of shape, try shooting in the formal standing position for an hour or so.

Not remotely as easy as you think.

Not out of shape at all should be good to go for the most part

Try bailing hay for a 10 hour day ... way more work than that (I am not saying it is bad or not fun to do I do plenty of competition things that I would not call a "sport" )

...Try bailing hay for a 10 hour day ...

Been there, done that, outgrew the t-shirt a long time ago. :D

Been there, done that, outgrew the t-shirt a long time ago. :D

Lol well I have not managed to work my way out of it yet lol oh well

25 meters with an AK and they missed that badly? That's pretty awful. I gotta agree with you, they suck.

25 meters with an AK and they missed that badly? That's pretty awful. I gotta agree with you, they suck.

I don't know. I've never fire an AK but from what I've heard they're not the easiest weapon in the world to handle and if it was their first time on the range then it's not too hard to imagine them struggling.

BTW, the target in question is a 25m zeroing target. They are using AK-47s to shoot at the little black silhouette from 25m away.

Notice that it's not as easy as it looks, especially if you suck.
Maybe you should start them off on "normal gun user" and work them up to "gun nut" then.

Lol well I have not managed to work my way out of it yet lol oh well

I stopped after I graduated from high school (back in '91). The farm was right across from the school, and I lived about 1 1/2 miles from both, so I didn't have far to go to get to work. :D Once I was college-bound, I had to find a better paying job than $5.00/hr.

I don't know. I've never fire an AK but from what I've heard they're not the easiest weapon in the world to handle and if it was their first time on the range then it's not too hard to imagine them struggling.

I've never shot an AK either, but I'm sure they were given a thorough overview on proper shooting technique, including breathing and sight-picture control. 25 m is spitting distance for an assault weapon designed with a maximum effective range of 300 m.

I stopped after I graduated from high school (back in '91). The farm was right across from the school, and I lived about 1 1/2 miles from both, so I didn't have far to go to get to work. :D Once I was in college though, I had to find a better paying job than $5.00/hr.

Family owned farm .... Lol Me and my brothers do it right now or it do not get done but a lot less then I used to have to do it my younger brother has kind of started to take over the farm

I've never shot an AK either, but I'm sure they were given a thorough overview on proper shooting technique, including breathing and sight-picture control. 25 m is spitting distance for an assault weapon designed with a maximum effective range of 300 m.

All true, but I remember the first time I fired an assault type rifle and my aim was all over the place until I got over my fear of the recoil and the sight breaking my nose. They only had 4 rounds each as well so that makes me think that they were probably sighting the weapons and so shouldn't expect to hit the centre of the targets anyway (the groupings were slightly worrying though.).

Over the last few days, RO has taught us the following:

...
2. An unqualified blind-man shouldn't be allowed to design bridges.
...

I'm learning a lot from these threads.

Yes, but you're missing the impoirtant point: whether he was blind or not was utterly irrelevant , compared to whether he was qualified.*


* not that unqualified people can't build bridges, but I know whom I'd prefer.

Family owned farm .... Lol Me and my brothers do it right now or it do not get done but a lot less then I used to have to do it my younger brother has kind of started to take over the farm
Yep, that's the way farms work all over. My wife's parents still farm. She's going to inherit it, or we'll buy it eventually.

Assuming there was nothing wrong with the sights on the rifles, it shouldn't have been difficult to hit those at that distance.

Yep, that's the way farms work all over. My wife's parents still farm. She's going to inherit it, or we'll buy it eventually.

its worth it but the death tax when my grandma passed away was almost 100 grand ... And we all three of us kids go to college ... has been an intresting few years

its worth it but the death tax when my grandma passed away was almost 100 grand ... And we all three of us kids go to college ... has been an intresting few years
I wonder what happens if we low-ball the sale? I've been saving like crazy to pay the death tax, though. Surely, preventing passing a farm from one generation to the next isn't what was envisioned with that tax.

All true, but I remember the first time I fired an assault type rifle and my aim was all over the place until I got over my fear of the recoil and the sight breaking my nose. They only had 4 rounds each as well so that makes me think that they were probably sighting the weapons and so shouldn't expect to hit the centre of the targets anyway (the groupings were slightly worrying though.).

That's possible, but unless the guy in the video is a complete asshole, I don't think he'd come down so hard on guys for shooting poorly while trying to sight the rifles.

Assuming there was nothing wrong with the sights on the rifles, it shouldn't have been difficult to hit those at that distance.
There's a lot more to shooting that just good sights.

That's possible, but unless the guy in the video is a complete asshole, I don't think he'd come down so hard on guys for shooting poorly while trying to sight the rifles.

How much of that was playing up to the camera though?

The instructor just seemed like an asshole to me, how much will any of the soldiers learn just by being told they suck?

How much of that was playing up to the camera though?

The instructor just seemed like an asshole to me, how much will any of the soldiers learn just by being told they suck?
Watch Full Metal Jacket. It's not that far from the mark. A little on the soft side, from my recollection of Paris Island, though.

I wonder what happens if we low-ball the sale? I've been saving like crazy to pay the death tax, though. Surely, preventing passing a farm from one generation to the next isn't what was envisioned with that tax.

Yeah we got busted in the nut because of the price value of lake side property in this area and we have about 100 acres of lake side (that and some local zoning weirdness that made it literally impossible to sell Township says A or R 40 or bigger County says No A and R less then 40)

How much of that was playing up to the camera though?

The instructor just seemed like an asshole to me, how much will any of the soldiers learn just by being told they suck?

I guess they'll learn that sucking is bad.

How much of that was playing up to the camera though?

The instructor just seemed like an asshole to me, how much will any of the soldiers learn just by being told they suck?

That's true. I just assumed that someone teaching soldiers how to shoot actually wants them to learn, and wouldn't drag them through the mud for no reason whatsoever. Perhaps I was wrong.

Watch Full Metal Jacket. It's not that far from the mark. A little on the soft side, from my recollection of Paris Island, though.

I've done basic mate and they only spoke to us like that when we were intentionally fucking things up. If you were trying and still failing then it was the fault of the instructor as they hadn't taught you right.

There's a lot more to shooting that just good sights.

I know, but assuming the sights were fine, the rest shouldn't have been that difficult.

A lot of the guys in the video didn't have any trouble.

I guess they'll learn that sucking is bad.

*wonders if the Iraqi army also has a don't as don't tell policy and whether the US instructor are trying to beat homosexuality out of the troops early?*

I've done basic mate and they only spoke to us like that when we were intentionally fucking things up. If you were trying and still failing then it was the fault of the instructor as they hadn't taught you right.
This is clearly why the USMC is a fighting force and foreign armies are just social clubs.

This is clearly why the USMC is a fighting force and foreign armies are just social clubs.

Let's not start in inter-service pissing match.

I'll just bring up a few blue on blues and then we can discuss whether the British armys' training methods leave you more or less equipped to fight in a modern theatre of war than American training. ;)

This is clearly why the USMC is a fighting force and foreign armies are just social clubs.

Willful ignorance does not become you.

*wonders if the Iraqi army also has a don't as don't tell policy and whether the US instructor are trying to beat homosexuality out of the troops early?*

Interesting idea. Maybe the US soldier on the video was pointing out their tendency to suck Mr. Happy as opposed to their poor shooting ability?

Coming from someone who has learned to handle a rifle at age 6 and still shoots competitively and for fun several times a year, how many posters to this thread have actually FIRED a gun in real life ? What kind of group size did you obtain (state firearm type and distance)? For the rest, you should try it, it's a hellovalot harder than video games, movies and the Internet make it look. Then come back and brag how "easy" it is .... :rolleyes:

Coming from someone who has learned to handle a rifle at age 6 and still shoots competitively and for fun several times a year, how many posters to this thread have actually FIRED a gun in real life ? What kind of group size did you obtain (state firearm type and distance)? For the rest, you should try it, it's a hellovalot harder than video games, movies and the Internet make it look. Then come back and brag how "easy" it is .... :rolleyes:

Spent many of years with one gun or another for hunting, pest killing, and cattle protection (we have had wolves in the area) Most of my life I have been just fine and dandy to handle a firearm

And I still find it rather easy

Edit: I dont mean completely easy but with practice I find a lot of other things more difficult

Coming from someone who has learned to handle a rifle at age 6 and still shoots competitively and for fun several times a year, how many posters to this thread have actually FIRED a gun in real life ? What kind of group size did you obtain (state firearm type and distance)? For the rest, you should try it, it's a hellovalot harder than video games, movies and the Internet make it look. Then come back and brag how "easy" it is .... :rolleyes:

Coming from someone who has read the thread, perhaps you should try and point out where any said that firing a gun and hitting what you aim at consistently is easy.


I'll save you the time. Nobody said that. Know why nobody said that? Because everyone knows it's not true. So why don't you try reading before you post. It's a lot easier than you might think.

I'll save you the time. Nobody said that. Know why nobody said that? Because everyone knows it's not true. So why don't you try reading before you post. It's a lot easier than you might think.

Oh I've read the thread allright, and quite a few seem to either blame the firearm or make blanket statements about how marksmanship is all about the gear and (should) involve very little (if any) skill and practice. The latter is the group I was referring to... Hitting what you're aiming at is a skill that is rather hard to learn, and easy to lose IMO ... Of course the easy way out then is to blame the gun.

This is clearly why the USMC is a fighting force and foreign armies are just social clubs.

No, that's why the UFC is a fighting force, foreign armies are social clubs and American forces are frat parties.

Coming from someone who has learned to handle a rifle at age 6 and still shoots competitively and for fun several times a year, how many posters to this thread have actually FIRED a gun in real life ? What kind of group size did you obtain (state firearm type and distance)? For the rest, you should try it, it's a hellovalot harder than video games, movies and the Internet make it look. Then come back and brag how "easy" it is .... :rolleyes:

Pish, I hit a can from 100 yards away with this gun right here (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m1car.jpg)(The upper model), and that was just my second shot.

Pish, I hit a can from 100 yards away with this gun right here (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m1car.jpg)(The upper model), and that was just my second shot.

Nice carbine, too bad it's "restricted" over here.

Oh I've read the thread allright, and quite a few seem to either blame the firearm or make blanket statements about how marksmanship is all about the gear and (should) involve very little (if any) skill and practice. The latter is the group I was referring to... Hitting what you're aiming at is a skill that is rather hard to learn, and easy to lose IMO ... Of course the easy way out then is to blame the gun.

I can't remember when I started shooting, probably before 5. Most of shooting a rifle is the tool. Just as most of carpentry and mechanics is the tools. That isn't to say there isn't skill in all three, but it's a lot easier if you have the right tool and it's set up correctly. Competition shooting is really the tool. Of course in real competitions everyone has the correct tool so that evens out.

Having said that, for the average person, shooting a rifle is little more than good, well adjusted, sights and proper breathing. The technique isn't really that hard to learn. Get the weapon adjusted and any normal target is at least hittable. I'm not saying they will cluster within a 50 cent diameter. You don't need to do that in most cases.

Now if we talk of shotguns with flying targets or pistols which are never very accurate, Then that calls for little more skill as well as mechanics. (Sort of like playing golf. People can get good but few can be Woods.) I was hunting pheasants in grade school with some success. Never did get good enough to do well in competition, but brought home dinner on a regular basis anyway.