NationStates Jolt Archive

Hey all, I've been thinking a lot lately about the subject of past loves, and while the vast majority of the people who srare my religious belief do not believe it, I've found no reason to dismiss it myself.

Researching the topic online is like trying to walk through a mine field. Most pages that come up when you click them in a search engine are ones that are after your money and shotgun you with popups. (That right there is enough to arouse the skeptic in me) So I wondered if any of you have some ideas for good resources, especially books.

Meanwhile, I'll share a story from a few years ago when I attended a past life regression seminar thingy.

There were 4 or 5 of us attending, sitting around a table. The woman giving the seminar put everyone into a semi hypnotic state and used visualization to guide us to explore a past life. Each person had their own experience. Mine was:

Standing on the deck of a ship-a tall ship. I could look around me and see rigging, the masts, sails, the deck, the sea... People were runninng around. As I turned and looked out over the side, I saw another ship (A frigate, as I later learned) and its guns were pointed at us. There was a thunderous noise and smoke as they fired a broadside and the next thing I knew I was laying on my back, stunned. People were looking at me in concern and it went black.

Then we were guided to move forward toward the end of that life

I wqas stanidng on cliffs, looking out over the sea to the east. I was an old man, and there was something wrong with my leg because I needed a cane to stand. Nearby, I saw a woman.. she was there and yet not there. She was dressed all in flowing white and seemed to be waiting for me.

All that has stayed with me over the years, even as I've tried to dismiss it as imagination. What do y'all think?

I truly don't know and I don't think anyone does, at least anyone who is still alive.

cool story.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't....but that is a cool story

feel special (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K18SH8Zd04)

good story though I have always been suspicious of people telling me to open my mind and follow there voice

Thanks for the compliments on the story :)

I left out the second one, (we did two that evening) because it was much shorter.. but in that one I was pregnant. :eek:

i'm not sure if reincarnation is real, but it always bothered me if it were, for it's as if the current life doesn't seem to matter if we're not going to remember it happened to us anyways (except through what you did, which is cool, but I still worry about the relevance of life if it just repeats with no memory of prior lives)

Thanks for the compliments on the story :)

I left out the second one, (we did two that evening) because it was much shorter.. but in that one I was pregnant. :eek:

so heres the thing

where is the evidence, even if only enough to convince YOU, that it was a past life?

so heres the thing

where is the evidence, even if only enough to convince YOU, that it was a past life?

See that's the real kicker. Suppose hypothetically that it was a legitimate memory of a past life. Suppose I really was a sailor on a British warship in the Napoleonic era and that as an old man I looked out over the cliffs of Dover. How would I ever know for sure? At best I might find an old log and maybe I find mention of a seaman who was injured in the leg during an action against an enemy frigate. How would I be able to definitively tie that to my experience?

Not possible. But if I find compelling reason to persue it, either from anecdotes from others or a really good book to read that would help, I could conceivably unlock another memory/past life that WOULD be verifiable.

But, of course, I'd first need to learn more, which brings it all back to just generally trying to determine whether it's even worth persuing.

I thought of another question, and it's meant as a genuine quest for info and not a challenge...

For those who vote absolutely not, how do you know? I've disregarded the Bible as a source because I don't think it is definitive one way or the other, and my church doesn't say anything about it officially one way or another that I know of.

So leaving that aside, can there be empirical evidence against? (I honestly don't know so maybe someone can enlighten me.)

See that's the real kicker. Suppose hypothetically that it was a legitimate memory of a past life. Suppose I really was a sailor on a British warship in the Napoleonic era and that as an old man I looked out over the cliffs of Dover. How would I ever know for sure? At best I might find an old log and maybe I find mention of a seaman who was injured in the leg during an action against an enemy frigate. How would I be able to definitively tie that to my experience?

Not possible. But if I find compelling reason to persue it, either from anecdotes from others or a really good book to read that would help, I could conceivably unlock another memory/past life that WOULD be verifiable.

But, of course, I'd first need to learn more, which brings it all back to just generally trying to determine whether it's even worth persuing.

Reminds me of those sessions in which people recant tales of being abducted by aliens.

Hypnosis is too iffy for me to even consider it plausible.

I thought of another question, and it's meant as a genuine quest for info and not a challenge...

For those who vote absolutely not, how do you know? I've disregarded the Bible as a source because I don't think it is definitive one way or the other, and my church doesn't say anything about it officially one way or another that I know of.

So leaving that aside, can there be empirical evidence against? (I honestly don't know so maybe someone can enlighten me.)

i voted absolutely not because my answer was NO.

i can see no mechanism for the transfer of "life" from one body to another.

when does it happen? how does it happen? are "ghosts" hanging about watching people have sex so they can jump into the middle of a fertilization event?

Not possible. But if I find compelling reason to persue it, either from anecdotes from others or a really good book to read that would help, I could conceivably unlock another memory/past life that WOULD be verifiable.


But how could you be sure that the verifiable memory is not just the result of you absorbing information about an event (from books, etc) but then forgetting it. I can't really describe it but what i'm trying to say is that people can write books which are, unintentionally, almost exactly like ones they have read in the past but forgotten. Why can this not apply here?

Apologies for how clumsily written this post is

I thought of another question, and it's meant as a genuine quest for info and not a challenge...

For those who vote absolutely not, how do you know? I've disregarded the Bible as a source because I don't think it is definitive one way or the other, and my church doesn't say anything about it officially one way or another that I know of.

So leaving that aside, can there be empirical evidence against? (I honestly don't know so maybe someone can enlighten me.)

There is no evidence for it so logic follows it probably doesn't exist. That is my logic for saying "absolutely not".

So leaving that aside, can there be empirical evidence against? (I honestly don't know so maybe someone can enlighten me.)

All current evidence suggests that consciousness is a function of the brain, so reincarnation doesn't seem plausible.

i voted absolutely not because my answer was NO.

i can see no mechanism for the transfer of "life" from one body to another.

when does it happen? how does it happen? are "ghosts" hanging about watching people have sex so they can jump into the middle of a fertilization event?

Calm down dear, its only a commercial :)

Well, reincarnation is seen a lot in Hinduism, and rebirth in Buddhism, which is slightly different. Hindu's believe that when you die the Karma you have accumalated (a special 'bank account' positive actions give you good Karma, negative actions take away from the good Karma) allows your soul to exit the body (which is why in Hinduism the body is cremated) where the soul then flies off, and then sucked into a new body dependent on their Karma from their past life. If you, say, had 400 Karma you might get reincarnated as a prince, or if 12 Karma, some Serbian child molestors son or something. Some Hindu's think if you were reallly bad, your soul can get turned into like...trees and rocks.

Im sure a Hindu could explain it better.

I don't see why it should be real. Though I don't see why it shouldn't either.

Calm down dear, its only a commercial :)

Well, reincarnation is seen a lot in Hinduism, and rebirth in Buddhism, which is slightly different. Hindu's believe that when you die the Karma you have accumalated (a special 'bank account' positive actions give you good Karma, negative actions take away from the good Karma) allows your soul to exit the body (which is why in Hinduism the body is cremated) where the soul then flies off, and then sucked into a new body dependent on their Karma from their past life. If you, say, had 400 Karma you might get reincarnated as a prince, or if 12 Karma, some Serbian child molestors son or something. Some Hindu's think if you were reallly bad, your soul can get turned into like...trees and rocks.

Im sure a Hindu could explain it better.

i didnt understand the commercial reference.

yeah, that hindu/buddhism/karma thing is quite different from our notion of a soul. it seems to ME that if you are going to remember a past life you need more than some dead guys karmic bank account to give you the ability to remember it. our western ideas of reincarnation seem to rely on more than a transfer of karma.

but anyway. WHO decides what gets good karma and what gets bad? where is this bank account kept after you die? who or what decides what poor sot has to bear the burden of your bad behavior? how does it get into the next guy and when?

none of it makes sense.

i didnt understand the commercial reference.

yeah, that hindu/buddhism/karma thing is quite different from our notion of a soul. it seems to ME that if you are going to remember a past life you need more than some dead guys karmic bank account to give you the ability to remember it. our western ideas of reincarnation seem to rely on more than a transfer of karma.

but anyway. WHO decides what gets good karma and what gets bad? where is this bank account kept after you die? who or what decides what poor sot has to bear the burden of your bad behavior? how does it get into the next guy and when?

none of it makes sense.

Actually, it makes loads of sense, Ill try to explain it, but because we arent brought up with it, its harder to understand.

Ok, theres a life force, I forget its name, I think its Sangha, this 'chooses' what good actions are and what bad ones are, its pretty much just what your conscience dictates. The bank account is proverbial, the life force, Sangha, remembers the Karma you got, and adds and deducts from it. To remember a past life, you need to (in Buddhism) become enlightened, where all the knowledge of the Universe is given to you, and you know and understand everything. In Hinduism, when your Karma reaches say...500, you become part of Sangha, the life force which controls everything in the Universe, so you know everything and understand it. When you reincarnate, you enter the 'next guy' as soon as you die, and someone else is born. So, say grandad dies when grandson is born, it is thought that the grandson could potentially have the Karma account of his Grandpa!

Again, a Hindu could explain it better.

i didnt understand the commercial reference.



You're the lucky one

But how could you be sure that the verifiable memory is not just the result of you absorbing information about an event (from books, etc) but then forgetting it. I can't really describe it but what i'm trying to say is that people can write books which are, unintentionally, almost exactly like ones they have read in the past but forgotten. Why can this not apply here?

Apologies for how clumsily written this post is

I think I understand what you're getting at. You're referring to subconscious memory.

And that's a perfectly good point, which is why evidence that points to reincarnation must somehow rule that possibility out.

There is no evidence for it so logic follows it probably doesn't exist. That is my logic for saying "absolutely not".

I can understand that, but IMHO an absence of evidence for isn't the same as evidence against.

I think I understand what you're getting at. You're referring to subconscious memory.

And that's a perfectly good point, which is why evidence that points to reincarnation must somehow rule that possibility out.

Glad you understood it because I think I understood myself less after typing it :p

i didnt understand the commercial reference.

There were a series of adverts on tv in the UK not long ago for an online car insurance company. The catchphrase was "Calm down dear! It's a commercial".

All current evidence suggests that consciousness is a function of the brain, so reincarnation doesn't seem plausible.

Maybe, but if I understand you correctly, wouldn't taht also cancel out the possibility of a soul in any religious context?

I think it's possible. I believe in the idea of a pleasant afterlife, but not a terrible one, so I think we all make it to our version of "heaven" eventually; I also believe God is too kind to sentence anyone to hell, no matter how terrible they are. So I think reincarnation is God's way of giving second - or third, or fourth, or fifth - chances to people to make it to heaven. (Heaven, of course, I use losely; I don't necessarily believe in the Christian version of heaven.)

And I don't think that makes our life right now useless; because maybe this is the life that we get enough things right to make it somewhere when we die. Or maybe, if it isn't, this is the life that determines where we end up next time. Or maybe the whole point of life is enjoying the ride, and adding to a bank of experiences that eventually we spent however much time living off of.

You're the lucky one

QFT.

Maybe, but if I understand you correctly, wouldn't taht also cancel out the possibility of a soul in any religious context?

Yes, under the traditional conception of a soul. It would, however, be consistent with the physical ressurection preached by some Christian groups. I'm not Christian myself, but it's an interesting thought.

Hey all, I've been thinking a lot lately about the subject of past loves, and while the vast majority of the people who srare my religious belief do not believe it, I've found no reason to dismiss it myself.

Researching the topic online is like trying to walk through a mine field. Most pages that come up when you click them in a search engine are ones that are after your money and shotgun you with popups. (That right there is enough to arouse the skeptic in me) So I wondered if any of you have some ideas for good resources, especially books.

Meanwhile, I'll share a story from a few years ago when I attended a past life regression seminar thingy.

There were 4 or 5 of us attending, sitting around a table. The woman giving the seminar put everyone into a semi hypnotic state and used visualization to guide us to explore a past life. Each person had their own experience. Mine was:

Standing on the deck of a ship-a tall ship. I could look around me and see rigging, the masts, sails, the deck, the sea... People were runninng around. As I turned and looked out over the side, I saw another ship (A frigate, as I later learned) and its guns were pointed at us. There was a thunderous noise and smoke as they fired a broadside and the next thing I knew I was laying on my back, stunned. People were looking at me in concern and it went black.

Then we were guided to move forward toward the end of that life

I wqas stanidng on cliffs, looking out over the sea to the east. I was an old man, and there was something wrong with my leg because I needed a cane to stand. Nearby, I saw a woman.. she was there and yet not there. She was dressed all in flowing white and seemed to be waiting for me.

All that has stayed with me over the years, even as I've tried to dismiss it as imagination. What do y'all think?

My advice is: Find a hindu temple in your area. Go in there. Talk to one of the priests about it. If they're not complete assholes (there are assholes priests in every religion, after all) they'll be more than happy to sit down with you and talk about it. It'll take a little time going there and coming back, but you'll probably get considerably more insight from it. I can (when I have time) post some less...fucked up websites that I can find on the subject, but to be honest, I don't trust the internet in matters theological, in general.

And note: I'm not telling you to convert, and there's nothing wrong with conversing on theology with priests of other religions.


...and cool story.

Calm down dear, it's a commercial- Remix (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEXH1sqoXqo)

Very funny. :D I'm afraid I couldn't find the original.

So, say grandad dies when grandson is born, it is thought that the grandson could potentially have the Karma account of his Grandpa!

Yeah, but... how are these souls connected (actual eastern reincarnation is more abstract than the western brand, i.e. no transferred memories)? If the body is different, the memories are different, there are no links between grandson and grandpa except for the supposed fact that they share their soul - what would it matter?

How is it decided what you reincarnate as? Do you simultaneously leave one body and join another or do you have to wait a bit until there is one ready for you? Do animals reincarnate too? Do the numbers of souls compared to people/things alive even match up? There are far more humans alive today than there ever had been at a single point in history, have souls been created or 'transferred' from animals that have become/we have made extinct?

And this is just a short list of questions that would cause doubt in the belief in reincarnation. None can be answered, only guessed at. Much like the thing itself, and any other religious/supernatural belief. Me the skeptic struggles to accept something with such uncertainty associated with it.

Actually, it makes loads of sense, Ill try to explain it, but because we arent brought up with it, its harder to understand.

Ok, theres a life force, I forget its name, I think its Sangha, this 'chooses' what good actions are and what bad ones are, its pretty much just what your conscience dictates. The bank account is proverbial, the life force, Sangha, remembers the Karma you got, and adds and deducts from it. To remember a past life, you need to (in Buddhism) become enlightened, where all the knowledge of the Universe is given to you, and you know and understand everything. In Hinduism, when your Karma reaches say...500, you become part of Sangha, the life force which controls everything in the Universe, so you know everything and understand it. When you reincarnate, you enter the 'next guy' as soon as you die, and someone else is born. So, say grandad dies when grandson is born, it is thought that the grandson could potentially have the Karma account of his Grandpa!

Again, a Hindu could explain it better.


oh i wasnt doubting that the theory hangs together well as hindu/buddhist theology. after all they have been working on it for thousands of years.

it doesnt make any sense in reality.

who is this sangha? where did he come from? who gave him that job and why is he the boss of ME? isnt the transfer of trillions of life forces from one being to the next kind of a big job for anyone to handle?

so do i have to avoid having sex near ill bad guys in case they die at the point of fertilization and i have doomed my potential child to wicked bad karma by virtue of ill-timed lust?

Yeah, but... how are these souls connected (actual eastern reincarnation is more abstract than the western brand, i.e. no transferred memories). If the body is different, the memories are different, there are no links between grandson and grandpa except for the supposed fact that they share their soul - what would it matter?

In many ways karma is a mystical grasping out for the concept of a divine balance. It's not so much about spiritual connection so much as it is about maintaining a balance between the goods and evils of the world. I just don't know enough about the subject to comment, but in my ideal belief system I imagine that there is some time between death and the next incarnation, a state where the soul can be conscious of all its past lives.

Since, after all, in many ways reincarnation and karma isn't about being a goody-two-shoes, as it is about learning the necessary lessons that the world has to offer.

Calm down dear, it's a commercial- Remix (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEXH1sqoXqo)

Very funny. :D I'm afraid I couldn't find the original.

thanks.

oh i wasnt doubting that the theory hangs together well as hindu/buddhist theology. after all they have been working on it for thousands of years.

it doesnt make any sense in reality.

who is this sangha? where did he come from? who gave him that job and why is he the boss of ME? isnt the transfer of trillions of life forces from one being to the next kind of a big job for anyone to handle?

so do i have to avoid having sex near ill bad guys in case they die at the point of fertilization and i have doomed my potential child to wicked bad karma by virtue of ill-timed lust?

Sangha isnt God, hes just kinda...the reason for everything. He is the 'God' of Hinduism. Hes really just billion of dead souls, so they find it easy to transfer life forces ;)

Karma, also, doesnt work like that, theyd probably get no positive or negative karma. You might get some negative karma, though.

Something freaky, the sound Om (the symbol being that squiggly 3) is the exact same noise the Universe makes as it expands.

My advice is: Find a hindu temple in your area. Go in there. Talk to one of the priests about it. If they're not complete assholes (there are assholes priests in every religion, after all) they'll be more than happy to sit down with you and talk about it. It'll take a little time going there and coming back, but you'll probably get considerably more insight from it. I can (when I have time) post some less...fucked up websites that I can find on the subject, but to be honest, I don't trust the internet in matters theological, in general.

And note: I'm not telling you to convert, and there's nothing wrong with conversing on theology with priests of other religions.


...and cool story.

Hehe thanks. :)

And I have absolutely no problem talking with priests of other religions. How else to gain insight into what other people believe? Because sometimes it's surprising just how much is shared.

...case in point.

How is it decided what you reincarnate as? Do you simultaneously leave one body and join another or do you have to wait a bit until there is one ready for you? Do animals reincarnate too? Do the numbers of souls compared to people/things alive even match up? There are far more humans alive today than there ever had been at a single point in history, have souls been created or 'transferred' from animals that have become/we have made extinct?


...just to add a fun new variable into the mix, who said all reincarnated souls had to come from THIS planet?

Now THAT will bake yer noodle...

Sangha isnt God, hes just kinda...the reason for everything. He is the 'God' of Hinduism. Hes really just billion of dead souls, so they find it easy to transfer life forces ;)

Karma, also, doesnt work like that, theyd probably get no positive or negative karma. You might get some negative karma, though.

Something freaky, the sound Om (the symbol being that squiggly 3) is the exact same noise the Universe makes as it expands.

*cough* Sangha is more of a collective consciousness than a god. It is the combined memories of several billion lives. It literally translates from Sanskrit as "assembly." And...well...it's a Buddhist concept, and a Jain concept, more than a Hindu concept.

And it's not about positive and negative karma. It's about balance and dharma.

Edit: Incidentally, the Hindu creation myth suggests that the universe was formed from the noise created by the beating of Vishnu's drum. This is the "Om."

...just to add a fun new variable into the mix, who said all reincarnated souls had to come from THIS planet?

Now THAT will bake yer noodle...

Not particularly. If we allow for the possibility of extraterristrial life, and for the possibility of reincarnation, it's pretty much a given.

Hehe thanks. :)

And I have absolutely no problem talking with priests of other religions. How else to gain insight into what other people believe? Because sometimes it's surprising just how much is shared.

...case in point.

Ayeh. It's pretty crazy how much all religions share at their fundamental points. There are always going to be overarching differences in focus and dogma (Islam's focus on brotherhood, Christianity's focus on faith and salvation), but there are so many commonalities one wonders at a common origin of all religion.

Edit: An anthropological common origin, I meant.

*cough* Sangha is more of a collective consciousness than a god. It is the combined memories of several billion lives. It literally translates from Sanskrit as "assembly." And...well...it's a Buddhist concept, and a Jain concept, more than a Hindu concept.

And it's not about positive and negative karma. It's about balance and dharma.

Edit: Incidentally, the Hindu creation myth suggests that the universe was formed from the noise created by the beating of Vishnu's drum. This is the "Om."

The positive Karma was just to help these Western devils understand ;)

Sangha is used in Hinduism, alot, its why it can be argued that Hinduism is a monotheistic religion, as truly Ganesha and Vishnu, etc would all have to have the Sangha in them ;)

Karma>Dharma>Caste :)

...just to add a fun new variable into the mix, who said all reincarnated souls had to come from THIS planet?

Now THAT will bake yer noodle...

how would they get here?

how would they get here?

A collective consciousness could theoretically span the universe. At that point, it's not so much an issue of "getting there" so much as it's an issue of "whether or not you're going to get there."

...I wish I could speak from a measure of authority on the subject, but I suppose my inattentiveness to it when I was little, mixed with my dislike of some of the tenets of Hinduism as it has been classically (caste, sexism, etc.) has led to me not caring to know as much about it as I probably should.

The positive Karma was just to help these Western devils understand ;)

Sangha is used in Hinduism, alot, its why it can be argued that Hinduism is a monotheistic religion, as truly Ganesha and Vishnu, etc would all have to have the Sangha in them ;)

Karma>Dharma>Caste :)

I had always been under the impression that Ganesh, Vishnu, Rama, etc. were all aspects of Brahman.

Then again, Hinduism has many diverse traditions. I'm under the impression my particular subcaste are Advaita Vedantists, but I'm not entirely sure, as, unfortunately, my parents aren't that religious either.

Silly Brahmins.

I had always been under the impression that Ganesh, Vishnu, Rama, etc. were all aspects of Brahman.

Then again, Hinduism has many diverse traditions. I'm under the impression my particular subcaste are Advaita Vedantists, but I'm not entirely sure, as, unfortunately, my parents aren't that religious either.

Silly Brahmins.

Yay a fellow Hindu :)...Im not that religous either...

:fluffle: to the Hindu :)

Yay a fellow Hindu :)...Im not that religous either...

:fluffle: to the Hindu :)

:fluffle: Yay! There are a surprising number of us Hindustanis on NSG. Most of us in England and America, not surprisingly.

I'm actually a little impressed that someone put up an entry about my subcaste on wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagar_Brahmins

oh i wasnt doubting that the theory hangs together well as hindu/buddhist theology. after all they have been working on it for thousands of years.

it doesnt make any sense in reality.

who is this sangha? where did he come from? who gave him that job and why is he the boss of ME? isnt the transfer of trillions of life forces from one being to the next kind of a big job for anyone to handle?

so do i have to avoid having sex near ill bad guys in case they die at the point of fertilization and i have doomed my potential child to wicked bad karma by virtue of ill-timed lust?

Actually Buddhism doesn't require Sangha or any other god to make it happen, it is simply how the universe works. Your good deeds raise you to the next level toward enlightenment, your bad deeds keep you that much farher away. In fact, the Buddha frowned upon mystical conjecture believing that it distracted from the real task of becoming enlightened.

yeah

y'all are mistaking my skepticism for a desire to understand hindu theology. not that its not interesting. in theology there is no thousands of light years of seperation between stars with lifebearing planets to take into consideration.

the question isnt "how would hinduism explain it?" but "how would that work in reality?"

kinda the same way one asks why a sin committed thousands of years ago by newbie humans dooms ME today when referring to christian theology. or more analagously how the noah's flood was supposed to fill the whole world with rain in only 40 days and where the water went afterwards.

Well there's the problem. Most religions don't have a huge basis in reality. This is why they are, in general, silly.

A collective consciousness could theoretically span the universe. At that point, it's not so much an issue of "getting there" so much as it's an issue of "whether or not you're going to get there."

...I wish I could speak from a measure of authority on the subject, but I suppose my inattentiveness to it when I was little, mixed with my dislike of some of the tenets of Hinduism as it has been classically (caste, sexism, etc.) has led to me not caring to know as much about it as I probably should.

yeah

y'all are mistaking my skepticism for a desire to understand hindu theology. not that its not interesting. in theology there is no thousands of light years of seperation between stars with lifebearing planets to take into consideration.

the question isnt "how would hinduism explain it?" but "how would that work in reality?"

kinda the same way one asks why a sin committed thousands of years ago by newbie humans dooms ME today when referring to christian theology. or more analagously how the noah's flood was supposed to fill the whole world with rain in only 40 days and where the water went afterwards.

how would they get here?

I dunno I was being a bit facetious, but in spiritual matters I'd say distance has little meaning and if all life spiritually has a common origin, then getting anywhere becomes meaningless.

Actually Buddhism doesn't require Sangha or any other god to make it happen, it is simply how the universe works. Your good deeds raise you to the next level toward enlightenment, your bad deeds keep you that much farher away. In fact, the Buddha frowned upon mystical conjecture believing that it distracted from the real task of becoming enlightened.

yeah but the problem is where does the next ME get the present ME? how does my "karma" transfer? what is the mechanism?

and, should my fate be pootinky why did *I* have to get the karma from the asshole who racked it up? why couldnt my parents have been more careful in how i was conceived, dammit?

Well there's the problem. Most religions don't have a huge basis in reality. This is why they are, in general, silly.

its fine as long as you keep it in the realm of theology where things dont have to make sense, they have a deeper meaning.

but if you are going to insist that you really really WERE marie antoinette in a past life, you are going to have to explain how that works.

I've had preminitions in my dreams which later came true, so I don't think its impossible to see in the opposite direction. That being said, I beleive I have seen into some of my past lives during my sleep, but I just don't remember them all.

I lean to Buddhism, but I'm still iffy on reincarnation. I can't prove it, nor can I measure its effects, something like God, so I can't truly beleive in without a doubt. I don't beleive in God. However, there is something I can't put away.

Anyway, I've read about the American Psychic Edgar Cayce and he would predict and go back in time during self induced trances where he would relax and put himself to sleep. He said anyone could do it, just it required some focus. Perhaps I accidentally did it myself a couple of times, I don't know, but it seemed like I've seen some of my past lives as well.

yeah but the problem is where does the next ME get the present ME? how does my "karma" transfer? what is the mechanism?

and, should my fate be pootinky why did *I* have to get the karma from the asshole who racked it up? why couldnt my parents have been more careful in how i was conceived, dammit?

I have not heard of karma by proxy before but as for your other questions, the Buddha has this to say:

It is as if a man had been wounded by an arrow thickly smeared with poison, and his friends and kinsmen were to get a surgeon to heal him, and he were to say, I will not have this arrow pulled out until I know by what man I was wounded, whether he is of the warrior caste, or a brahmin, or of the agricultural, or the lowest caste. Or if he were to say, I will not have this arrow pulled out until I know of what name or family the man is -- or whether he is tall, or short, or of middle height ...Before knowing all this, that man would die. Similarly, it is not on the view that the world is eternal, that it is finite, that body and soul are distinct, or that the Buddha exists after death that a religious life depends.

Whether these views or their opposites are held, there is still rebirth, there is old age, there is death, and grief, lamentation, suffering, sorrow, and despair...I have not spoken to these views because they do not conduce to an absence of passion, to tranquility, and Nirvana. And what have I explained?

Suffering have I explained, the cause of suffering, the destruction of suffering, and the path that leads to the destruction of suffering have I explained. For this is useful.

Sangha isnt God, hes just kinda...the reason for everything. He is the 'God' of Hinduism. Hes really just billion of dead souls, so they find it easy to transfer life forces ;)

Karma, also, doesnt work like that, theyd probably get no positive or negative karma. You might get some negative karma, though.

Something freaky, the sound Om (the symbol being that squiggly 3) is the exact same noise the Universe makes as it expands.

Butt Rice.

I've had preminitions in my dreams which later came true, so I don't think its impossible to see in the opposite direction. That being said, I beleive I have seen into some of my past lives during my sleep, but I just don't remember them all.

I lean to Buddhism, but I'm still iffy on reincarnation. I can't prove it, nor can I measure its effects, something like God, so I can't truly beleive in without a doubt. I don't beleive in God. However, there is something I can't put away.

Anyway, I've read about the American Psychic Edgar Cayce and he would predict and go back in time during self induced trances where he would relax and put himself to sleep. He said anyone could do it, just it required some focus. Perhaps I accidentally did it myself a couple of times, I don't know, but it seemed like I've seen some of my past lives as well.

He would 'relax and put himself to sleep'? You mean, he'd go to sleep?

Yeah, I totally do that. All the time.

Hey all, I've been thinking a lot lately about the subject of past loves, and while the vast majority of the people who srare my religious belief do not believe it, I've found no reason to dismiss it myself.

Researching the topic online is like trying to walk through a mine field. Most pages that come up when you click them in a search engine are ones that are after your money and shotgun you with popups. (That right there is enough to arouse the skeptic in me) So I wondered if any of you have some ideas for good resources, especially books.

Meanwhile, I'll share a story from a few years ago when I attended a past life regression seminar thingy.

There were 4 or 5 of us attending, sitting around a table. The woman giving the seminar put everyone into a semi hypnotic state and used visualization to guide us to explore a past life. Each person had their own experience. Mine was:

Standing on the deck of a ship-a tall ship. I could look around me and see rigging, the masts, sails, the deck, the sea... People were runninng around. As I turned and looked out over the side, I saw another ship (A frigate, as I later learned) and its guns were pointed at us. There was a thunderous noise and smoke as they fired a broadside and the next thing I knew I was laying on my back, stunned. People were looking at me in concern and it went black.

Then we were guided to move forward toward the end of that life

I wqas stanidng on cliffs, looking out over the sea to the east. I was an old man, and there was something wrong with my leg because I needed a cane to stand. Nearby, I saw a woman.. she was there and yet not there. She was dressed all in flowing white and seemed to be waiting for me.

All that has stayed with me over the years, even as I've tried to dismiss it as imagination. What do y'all think?

The answer to this question is not on the internet. The only way you'll find out what you want to know is by looking at yourself, inside of yourself, and asking what you really believe.

The answer to this question is not on the internet. The only way you'll find out what you want to know is by looking at yourself, inside of yourself, and asking what you really believe.

You could say that's what I've been doing, but I need more outside information. The Internet is probably not the best place to go, but like Wiki, it's a place to start. Does anyone know of some really good books on this?

I think it's a fairy tale.

i can see no mechanism for the transfer of "life" from one body to another.

when does it happen? how does it happen? are "ghosts" hanging about watching people have sex so they can jump into the middle of a fertilization event?

Well, if you believe in us having "souls", then you can also believe in transmigration of souls to another body, since it had already happened to you once. After all, your "soul" got into your body, did'nt it?

If you don't believe in "souls", then that's another matter. Objection to reincarnation is "logical" when you have a "no souls" stand.

But if you do believe in "God" (Brahman, Supreme consciousness, Godhead etc) and you believe in individual unique souls for humans, then there should be no basic objection to the concept of transmigration of souls, because that is how your current body has your soul in the first place.

but anyway. WHO decides what gets good karma and what gets bad? where is this bank account kept after you die? who or what decides what poor sot has to bear the burden of your bad behavior? how does it get into the next guy and when?

none of it makes sense.

In Hindu belief systems, nobody keeps a bank account. Karmic laws are considered natural and inviolable. Nobody decides anything. It gets decided automatically based on your desires and the state of your conciousness (not the physical, but spiritual) - which are largely dependant on what you did in your lifetime.

When you reincarnate, you enter the 'next guy' as soon as you die, and someone else is born. So, say grandad dies when grandson is born, it is thought that the grandson could potentially have the Karma account of his Grandpa!


Not necessarily. Fully self-realized atmas are not bound by the life-death cycle, because they would have already "suffered" their karma by then.

And I believe that (per Hindu scriptural beliefs), there is no "transfer" of karma. Karma is not inherited from your parents. No "original sin" in Hinduism. :p

You alone decide your fate. Nobody else.

I wasn't born yesterday.

Here's one explanation of Karma by Sri Ramanujacharya - one of the most accomplished scholars of Hindu belief systems. He is the proponent of Vishistadvaitha.


Karma

Karma is one of the most basic doctrines of Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism) and a thorough understanding of the dynamics of Karma is essential for any degree of Spiritual advancement.

Sanatana Dharma takes for granted that there is order pervading the universe. Karma is the doctrine of the economy of action.

The word karma means 'action' and refers to the entire cycle of action and its consequences. Every action in addition to its physical goal produces a moral consequence which manifests as either joy or sorrow.

All good actions produce happiness and all evil actions result in suffering. This law operates whether we are conscious of it or not. It is the process by which we shape our own destinies and build up our own reality. Through ignorance we bind ourselves through selfish actions, feelings or thoughts. As long as our actions are directed towards self gratification alone there is not the slightest possibility of working towards liberation from the cycle of reincarnation. Even the smallest thought or act has consequences which are not settled with death.

Cause and Effect

In this life we experience the effect and often feel resentful that we are now suffering for the course of action set into motion by someone else.

But when one looks at life from the point of view of immortality, and the soul or Self as an eternal imperishable spiritual entity then everything falls into a pattern of cause and effect.

Karma as the law of spiritual dynamics makes us self-reliant beings with the realization that we can never escape responsibility. We can never plead ignorance of the law nor take the attitude - this time it won't matter. In fact the effect is inherent in the cause and therefore the two are in fact one continuum. In the inviolability of the law lies our potential freedom. It enables us to modify, change and remold our character which is the result of our past lives and to create our future character in greater perfection - improving on our mistakes from the past knowing that not one single iota of effort goes to waste.

Predestination Karma is often misunderstood as a synonym for destiny or fate. Karma is neither of these, it is a cosmic law which negates any possibility of luck, good fortune, or chance. Behind every fortuitous opportunity or apparent stroke of luck lies the energy which we ourselves have generated. Likewise behind every loss and misfortune lies the negative energy which we ourselves have created. We are powerless to change what actually happens to us but we have complete freedom to determine how we will deal with each and every situation that arise and turn it to benefit or harm. Predestination, fate or destiny implies that there is an external force which is imposing its own agenda onto us. Karma is the law whereby we create and experience our own agendas. We have the power to visualize, plan, work for and achieve our own certain future.

Dynamics of Karma

The actual working out of the law of Karma is extremely complex including millions of fine permutations and tunings affecting the lives of all of those around us and everyone that we have ever known. All these dynamics are controlled by the Devas (Cosmic Forces) of Karma. But there are certain basic principles which we need to understand. We are all acting one three different realms; physical, emotional and mental with energies appropriate to each realm. These energies are known as:

kriya shakti - physical realm; physical actions determine our physical environment.

iccha shakti - emotional realm; our emotional life revolves around our family, friends and associates and determines our interaction with them, and

jٌana shakti - mental realm; our world of thoughts, goals and aspirations which determine how we interact with the world around us and ultimately understand ourselves.

All these three energies together make up our character.

Sin and Virtue

No action can be said to be neutral; every word, deed or thought has an effect. Our thoughts affect us directly while our speech and physical actions affect our environment. Although the concept of sin (papa) is linked to Karma one must understand that the Vedantic concept of sin is quite different to the Christian concept. Sin is defined in the Mahabharata as follows;

paropaka:ra:h punya:ya pa: pa:ya para pi:d:anam || Virtue is that which benefits other beings; sin is that which causes pain to others.

The entire moral theology of Sanatana Dharma rests upon the concept of "benefit of all beings" (sarva-bhuta-hita). Motivation or intention is the deciding factor of the moral nature of an action. Motivation which centers on the welfare of others is of the nature of goodness and purity whereas motivation which centers upon the individual and his needs is negative and leads to suffering and bondage to the cycle of births and deaths.

Sin is an un-skilled use of action, a lack of spiritual understanding which causes one to transgress the Cosmic Laws (Rita). And the means of sinning are the mind, the speech and actions. The unskillful use of thought is manifest in thinking harmful thoughts directed towards others and clinging to irrational and erroneous doctrines. The unskillful use of speech is detected in lying, slandering, gossiping, and abusing others and giving false teachings. The unskillful use of action is causing physical injury to other living beings, and not rendering assistance in time of need. All well-directed virtuous actions leads to spiritual development and happiness, all unskillful actions slow spiritual growth and produce unhappiness.

Types of Karma There are three types of Karma including both negative and positive;

§ 1. Sanchita Karma; the accumulated results of acts which have been committed in the past lives and are waiting to come to fruition in the future.

§ 2. Prarabdha Karma; acts done in the past which have resulted in the circumstances of the present incarnation and are causing all the joys and sorrows which we are now experiencing.

§ 3 Kriyamana Karma; All the actions which are now being performed; the results of which will be experienced at a later date and will condition the circumstances of the next incarnation.

Prarabdha karma is beyond the control of the individual and the results which have produced our present conditions have to be born with patience. It is like the seed which has been planted in the past and is now flowering.

Sanchita karma is like seed which has been stored and can be remitted through the Grace of the Guru or God.

The kriyamana karma or the present actions are entirely under the control of the individual and must be performed with the utmost awareness that each individual is the author of his/her own destiny and each and every action, no matter how trivial will have an effect, unless all actions and their consequences are surrendered unto God, (karma phala tyaga). Once surrendered, all actions are purified and everything is done as service to God alone and thus even mundane actions become the vehicle of Liberation.

Suffering

The doctrine of karma explains the universal experience and problem of suffering. There are three factors in suffering;

a ) the person who is suffering

b ) an agent of suffering such as a person, thing, condition etc.,

c.) and the degree of suffering.

Once we have understood the nature of the self as it really is and understood the dynamic of actions and their consequences, then the agent of suffering becomes incidental and secondary. We no longer bear any anger or resentment towards the person or thing that is seen to be causing the suffering because they are merely agents of our own karma.

It is on this basis and this basis alone that we can truly love our "enemy" and return love for hurt, compassion for thoughtlessness. When the experience of suffering is thus understood it becomes an opportunity for self-development and spiritual transformation and its intensity is greatly diminished. The suffering and happiness of each being is in exact proportion to its deeds. And even suffering is meant to correct and rehabilitate the one suffering. Suffering is the source of great lessons and the vehicle of greater understanding and insight if used with awareness and insight into the law of Karma.

The Three Causes of Bad Karma

There are three things which cause us to perform sinful actions which lead to demerit and suffering; they are:

Desire (kama), Anger (krodha) and Greed (lobha).

These three are known as the three poisons which retard spiritual growth and the three gateways to hell.

Desire (Kama) primarily and generally refers to the libido which is the strongest drive we have. In specific terms it is the desire which is self-centered and directed purely at self-gratification. It is wrongly directed desire which is unhelpful to spiritual progress, and thus prolongs one's existence in Samsara.

Anger (Krodha) is the reaction towards unfulfilled desires and failed expectations one has of others. This leads to causing injury and hurt to others which in turn results in bad karma and further suffering. Our sages teach us that a moment's outburst of anger destroys heaps of merit painstakingly accumulated over long periods of time.

Greed (Lobha) is the craving for more beyond the limits of necessity or comfort and the inability to share that surplus with others. Its goal is having and possessing for the sake of possession itself without any personal use or benefit to others. Its dynamism lies in the inability to rejoice at the good fortune of others and actually manifests as a desire to obstruct the progress and prosperity of others.

All these three poisons have their origin in delusion. Delusion (moha) is the notion that the body is the Self and that one is a unique and separate entity to all others, this results in craving and clinging. This conviction is the very axis on which the cycle of reincarnation revolves. Until we attain enlightenment and realize that we are not the physical body but eternal spiritual entities which are sparks of divinity, dependant upon and subservient to the Supreme Being then we will continue indefinitely in bondage to the material nature.

Karma and Grace

The question which will invariably be asked is what part does God have in this law of Karma. The Lord is known as Karma-Phala-Data the "Dispenser-of-the-fruit-of-action"

He dispenses the fruit of action with perfect justice and impartiality. The Lord is not responsible for the suffering or the happiness of anyone, it is oneself alone that creates and carries out one's destiny. The effects of Karma are considered to be beginningless and it is almost impossible to free oneself from the tangle of actions and reactions, it requires hundreds of births in which a concerted and continued effort is made to reach perfection. So it is only through the grace of God that Liberation from the fetters of Karma can be achieved quickly. God is always ready to forgive and remit all our transgressions we need only request. The way of liberation lies in the path of self-surrender. The ultimate teaching is given by the Supreme Lord in the Bhagavad Gita 18:66

"Abandon all self-initiated means for obtaining liberation, take refuge in ME alone. I (Krishna) will redeem you from all Karma, and grant you Liberation, do not grieve."


In Visistadavaita (or Srivaishnavism) a distinction is drawn between the aspirant that follows the Path of Devotion (bhakta) and the one who renounces the fruit of all action and takes refuge in the Lord (prapanna). Devotion (bhakti) destroys the residue of sanchita karma but the one who follows the path of Devotion as taught in the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads will have to take one or two more births in order to rid himself completely of the effects of Prarabdha karma. In the case of the prapanna who has renounced the fruit of all actions and taken refuge in the Lord alone, no future births will occur because the anabhyupagata portion of the prarabdha karma is destroyed by the grace of the Lord along with the sanchita karma.

Sri Rama Ramanujacharya
http://www.srimatham.com/

I thought of another question, and it's meant as a genuine quest for info and not a challenge...

For those who vote absolutely not, how do you know? I've disregarded the Bible as a source because I don't think it is definitive one way or the other, and my church doesn't say anything about it officially one way or another that I know of.

So leaving that aside, can there be empirical evidence against? (I honestly don't know so maybe someone can enlighten me.)

Well, our memories physically exist in our brain, so therefore all we can remember is that which our brain has stored since beginning life. This is evidence against having any memories of past lives.

However in general it isn't necessary to prove it doesn't exist; the onus is on believers to prove it does exist. Since there is no evidence of this I voted absolutely not.

No imagination, It is a past life experience. I have strong faith in that and quiet often I have dreams of a Spanish City Dirt streets white houses, I think to myself when I wake up I know all of these streets and routes, I knew where everything is. When I woke up I seriously knew everything about that City, when I had the dream the first time. It looked so fimilar that I asked a PROFESSIONAL Physic where did I live in my past life, Guess what? A big Spanish City in the late 1800s early 1900s. hmm that makes you wonder and it makes me wonder.

I just finished reading some of Plato's Socratic dialogues, namely Meno for the 3rd time and am now going through Phaedo for the 2nd time. Plato's Socrates*, I think, puts up a really good argument in the Phaedo as to why he believes souls are reborn.

First, in the Meno, Socrates is discussing with a man names Meno whether virtue can be taught. At one point Meno asks "How can we ever inquire into something? If we know it, then there's no need to inquire, and if we don't know it then we can't find out!" Now Meno isn't the brightest character ever so Socrates gives him a theory that before we were born we were souls in some other world where we had all this knowledge. Then, when we were born into our bodies we forgot it. Therefore he says inquiring into things we don't know is really just recollecting knowledge we had forgotten.

Then in the Phaedo Socrates is in prison on his last day to live. He's asked to give an argument why he thinks the soul is doesn't just dissappate after death. He had earlier characterized life as the soul attached to a body, and that philosophy is the effort to attain true knowledge by removing oneself from the body as much as possible. He then gives many examples of symmetry in nature, namely things that are now hot came from things cold, things now wet came from things dry, things now healthy came from things sick, and therefore he doesn't see why nature would break this symmetry and only let life be that which terminates and whose death does not lead to life again.

I can't give the arguments justice, but those are a poor recreation of them. I'm also not done with Phaedo so I'm sure he goes on with this arguement. I suggest you read both the Meno and Phaedo (and all of Plato's other Socratic Dialogues). They're available online.

*Note: You'll notice I said Plato's Socrates, as I'm sure some of you may have at least heard that sometimes there is dispute as to which of Plato's dialogues contained Socrates' thoughts and which his own,

To the OP: Your unconscious was farting out stuff you'd seen on TV or in the movies.

Here's one explanation of Karma by Sri Ramanujacharya

*snip*



That was awesome, thanks!

I have not heard of karma by proxy before but as for your other questions, the Buddha has this to say:

well, i was born into this life with the karma of someone else. someone not related to me. someone i dont know. what HE did determines what happens to ME.

i would consider that "karma by proxy" since i am rewarded or punished for things i didnt do.

as to the passage you quoted, i didnt understand it.

Well, if you believe in us having "souls", then you can also believe in transmigration of souls to another body, since it had already happened to you once. After all, your "soul" got into your body, did'nt it?

If you don't believe in "souls", then that's another matter. Objection to reincarnation is "logical" when you have a "no souls" stand.

But if you do believe in "God" (Brahman, Supreme consciousness, Godhead etc) and you believe in individual unique souls for humans, then there should be no basic objection to the concept of transmigration of souls, because that is how your current body has your soul in the first place.



In Hindu belief systems, nobody keeps a bank account. Karmic laws are considered natural and inviolable. Nobody decides anything. It gets decided automatically based on your desires and the state of your conciousness (not the physical, but spiritual) - which are largely dependant on what you did in your lifetime.

no i dont believe in souls. i dont see how they would work in reality any more than i see how karma and reincarnation works. it makes no sense outside of theology.

so IF there were karma left behind when we die, HOW does it get into the next person? is it the nearest new life? is it the nearest appropriate life? is it totally random within certain parameters?

no i dont believe in souls. i dont see how they would work in reality any more than i see how karma and reincarnation works. it makes no sense outside of theology.

Well, like I said, if you don't believe in souls in the first place, then reincarnation would not be plausible for you, since it takes the existence of souls as a basis.

So, there is really no point in exploring the possibility of reincarnation until you have accepted the possibility of the existence of souls.



so IF there were karma left behind when we die, HOW does it get into the next person? is it the nearest new life? is it the nearest appropriate life? is it totally random within certain parameters?

Well, it is not like that movie "Fallen" where the evil thingy goes to the person who touches the person...:D

Please read the other post about karma. It is not random. You decide (per scriptures, of course) what you become. Your thoughts and actions alone decide your fate.

Basically, and I am putting it in a very simplistic ways, your next birth = (your desires minus what you deserve per your karmic status)

well, i was born into this life with the karma of someone else. someone not related to me. someone i dont know. what HE did determines what happens to ME.

i would consider that "karma by proxy" since i am rewarded or punished for things i didnt do.

as to the passage you quoted, i didnt understand it.

There is no "someone else". "You" were that "someone else". You are not your body, but you are your soul.

Again, if you don't believe in souls, none of this would make sense and there is really no point in trying to make sense of these things, when you disagree with the basic axiom.

It is like disputing an integration formula when you disagree with number theory....or something like that..that was the cleverest analogy I can think of when I am drunk..:p

I can quote two of my favorite verses from the Gita in this matter.

http://www.asitis.com/2/13.html

Chapter 2 Text 13

dehino 'smin yatha dehe
kaumaram yauvanam jara
tatha dehantara-praptir
dhiras tatra na muhyati

SYNONYMS
dehinah--of the embodied; asmin--in this; yatha--as; dehe--in the body; kaumaram--boyhood; yauvanam--youth; jara--old age; tatha--similarly; deha-antara--transference of the body; praptih--achievement; dhirah--the sober; tatra--thereupon; na--never; muhyati--deluded.

TRANSLATION
As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.

PURPORT
Since every living entity is an individual soul, each is changing his body every moment, manifesting sometimes as a child, sometimes as a youth, and sometimes as an old man. Yet the same spirit soul is there and does not undergo any change. This individual soul finally changes the body at death and transmigrates to another body;

and

Chapter 2 Text 22

vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya
navani grhnati naro 'parani
tatha sarirani vihaya jirnany
anyani samyati navani dehi

SYNONYMS
vasamsi--garments; jirnani--old and worn out; yatha--as it is; vihaya--giving up; navani--new garments; grhnati--does accept; narah--a man; aparani--other; tatha--in the same way; sarirani--bodies; vihaya--giving up; jirnani--old and useless; anyani--different; samyati--verily accepts; navani--new sets; dehi--the embodied.

TRANSLATION
As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, similarly, the soul accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones.

:eek: You posted THAT when drunk?

No wonder you're eloquent when sober.