NationStates Jolt Archive

Hey I just woke up with the idea: acctually Hamas and Hezbollah and some other muslim-fundamentalist groups are doing quite the same as the resistance did in WOII:
For example Germany invaded Belgium and occupied it (I use it because I live there) and there was a minority killing some german soldiers and destroying railroad tracks etc. They did this because there did not want an other country to rule over them and decides what happens in their country.
Israel is occupying parts of Palestine and Lebanon, so there's a minority killing Israeli soldiers, destroying their tanks etc. They did it because they don't want that an other country rules over them and decides what happens in their country.

The only difference I see is that Hamas, Hezbollah, etc, are muslimfundamentalists and the resistance in Belgium (probably also in the Netherlands, France, etc) were marxistic-fundamentalists, democratic-fundamentalists, christian-fundamentalists etc.

So why are some of you against Hamas but still praising the once who still live from the resistance against Nazi-Germany?
Are you then islamofobic, or is there an other reason?

1) Israel is not occupying Lebanon.

2) The resistance in WWII didn't want to destroy Germany and it's citizens. Hamas wants to destory Israel and it's citizens.

I agree that Israel should pull back it's settlements and set a border that allows for a viable Palestinian state, but I can't support terrorist groups who's eventual goal is genocide and the destruction of a democratic nation.

1) Israel is not occupying Lebanon.

2) The resistance in WWII didn't want to destroy Germany and it's citizens. Hamas wants to destory Israel and it's citizens.

I agree that Israel should pull back it's settlements and set a border that allows for a viable Palestinian state, but I can't support terrorist groups who's eventual goal is genocide and the destruction of a democratic nation.

1) Israel IS occupying the Golan height, which is acctually from Lebanon.

2) Hamas doesn't want to destroy the citizens, just the state Israel, just as the resistance wanted to destroy Nazi-Germany, but they just fought in their own country because they had no long-range missiles.

So what is terroristic about Hamas and Hezbollah?

Refresh me on the part where the French resistance snuck into Germany to kill women and children in their sleep, murder people in pizza restaurants and blow up citizens riding the bus. I didn't read that chapter in my history book.

Khaban;12750237']1) Israel IS occupying the Golan height, which is acctually from Lebanon.

2) Hamas doesn't want to destroy the citizens, just the state Israel, just as the resistance wanted to destroy Nazi-Germany, but they just fought in their own country because they had no long-range missiles.

So what is terroristic about Hamas and Hezbollah?

1) Golan Heights was taken from Syria in the 1967 war. Syria along with other arabs tried to destroy Israel and got their asses handed to them.

2) Hezbollah has attacked Jewish community centers in places like Buenos Aires, Argentina. Sounds to me like they're just trying to kill Jews. Hamas has made statements like the following.

The following is the text of the Hamas spokesman's call for genocide of Jews:

The Hamas spokesman, Dr. Ismail Radwan, PA TV, March 30, 2007 -

The Hour [Resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, and the rock and the tree will say: "Oh, Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, kill him!"

We must remind our Arab and Muslim nation, its leaders and people, its scholars and students, remind them that Palestine and the Al Aqsa mosque will not be liberated through summits nor by international resolutions, but it will be liberated through the rifle. It will not be liberated through negotiations, but through the rifle, since this occupation knows no language but the language of force… O Allah, strengthen Islam and Muslims, and bring victory to your Jihad-fighting worshipers, in Palestine and everywhere… Allah take the oppressor Jews and Americans and their supporters!
Note he's not saying the Israelis, he's saying the Jews.

Refresh me on the part where the French resistance snuck into Germany to kill women and children in their sleep, murder people in pizza restaurants and blow up citizens riding the bus. I didn't read that chapter in my history book.

I haven't said they do exactly the same, but it comes down to the same: Nazi-Germany killed a lot of people, so the resistance killed a lot of german soldiers.
Israel bombed a lot of palestinian and lebanese houses (during day AND night) with women and children (and men) in it, so the palestinian and lebaneze resistance killed women and children on markets. They also kill soldiers, by the way.

Khaban;12750237']1) Israel IS occupying the Golan height, which is acctually from Lebanon.

A small section of it is claimed by Lebanon, but the vast majority of it is claimed by Syria.

2) Hezbollah has attacked Jewish community centers in places like Buenos Aires, Argentina.

They also made an attempt of Salman Rushdie's life IIRC.

They also made an attempt of Salman Rushdie's life IIRC.

Well if you're an Islamic supremacist you can't tolerate anyone badmouthing the one true religion destined to rule the world.

1) Golan Heights was taken from Syria in the 1967 war. Syria along with other arabs tried to destroy Israel and got their asses handed to them.

2) Hezbollah has attacked Jewish community centers in places like Buenos Aires, Argentina. Sounds to me like they're just trying to kill Jews. Hamas has made statements like the following.

Note he's not saying the Israelis, he's saying the Jews.

Yes, and the resistance said they should kill all Nazi's, not only the german-Nazi's

Khaban;12750346']Yes, and the resistance said they should kill all Nazi's, not only the german-Nazi's

So in your antisemitic, racist view all Jews are like Nazis. Got it. No sense arguing with you, you're blinded by hate. Maybe the Stormfront forums would suit you better.

Khaban;12750346']Yes, and the resistance said they should kill all Nazi's, not only the german-Nazi's

You start the thread by accusing everyone else of being 'islamofobic (sic)' and now you're supporting the bombing of people on the other side of the world from Israel, purely because they're Jewish?

Was your grandfather in the resistance? Mine was and I find the comparison disgusting.

So in your antisemitic, racist view all Jews are like Nazis. Got it. No sense arguing with you, you're blinded by hate. Maybe the Stormfront forums would suit you better.

Either that or he's a fake liberal, who claims he's reasoned out the real truth, and that in his super logical realist views (:rolleyes:) state that all Muslims are perfect and to be a true liberal you must sympathise with their freedom fighting cause. He's the only one who goes against the mainstreem conventional lies, and sees the real facts, Jews are teh evils!

Khaban;12750294']I haven't said they do exactly the same, but it comes down to the same: Nazi-Germany killed a lot of people, so the resistance killed a lot of german soldiers.
Israel bombed a lot of palestinian and lebanese houses (during day AND night) with women and children (and men) in it, so the palestinian and lebaneze resistance killed women and children on markets. They also kill soldiers, by the way.

Israel killing civilians doesn't make it right for Hamas and Hezbollah to do so. It just makes them both wrong.

This conflict has no "good guys" versus "bad guys" thing going on. Nobody is in the right here, so stop pretending they are. Instead, we need to try to find a way for them to peacefully co-exist, as difficult and unlikely as it is to happen.

So in your antisemitic, racist view all Jews are like Nazis. Got it. No sense arguing with you, you're blinded by hate. Maybe the Stormfront forums would suit you better.

No I'm not antisemitic, I think, and I'm not a racist, I think, but I just wanted to make a comparison between the two groups, you can't deny that there are things the same.

Was your grandfather in the resistance? Mine was and I find the comparison disgusting.

Mine wasn'tin the resistance , he hid himself in the basement with his wife and first daughter for all those years, he only came out to get food and hang out the diapers in the night. You'll probably call him a coward but I call him quite brave.

Israel killing civilians doesn't make it right for Hamas and Hezbollah to do so. It just makes them both wrong.

This conflict has no "good guys" versus "bad guys" thing going on. Nobody is in the right here, so stop pretending they are. Instead, we need to try to find a way for them to peacefully co-exist, as difficult and unlikely as it is to happen.

I never said anyone was right, and I too say that both of them are wrong, but then you've got to admit that the resistance wasn't "the good guys" either.
I also believe there should be found a solution, which may never be found seeing the hate between the two groups.

No, you're a racist. Go beat off to Mein Kampf or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion or whatever antisemitic crap you read.

Why am I a racist? Really you don't know anything. You do believe that there are no equal points between the resistance in the WOII and Hamas?
Well then you must really be islamofobic, because there are!

Khaban;12750414']Why am I a racist? Really you don't know anything. You do believe that there are no equal points between the resistance in the WOII and Hamas?
Well then you must really be islamofobic, because there are!

You stated that in your fucked up opinion all Jews were equivalent to nazis. That's fucking racist. I don't know anything? I know that you're a lot more like the nazis than any Jew I've ever met.

Khaban;12750411']I never said anyone was right, and I too say that both of them are wrong, but then you've got to admit that the resistance wasn't "the good guys" either.
I also believe there should be found a solution, which may never be found seeing the hate between the two groups.

Resistance against the fucking NAZIS was not good? There are very few clear cut cases of good vs. evil in the world, but the Nazis were pretty damn evil, man.

You stated that in your fucked up opinion all Jews were equivalent to nazis. That's fucking racist. I don't know anything? I know that you're a lot more like the nazis than any Jew I've ever met.

I never said that Jews are equal to nazi's were do you get that from?
And if I were a nazi then I would hate Jews, I would certainly not say that nazis are equivalent to jews, so think again.

Khaban;12750424']I never said that Jews are equal to nazi's were do you get that from?
And if I were a nazi then I would hate Jews, I would certainly not say that nazis are equivalent to jews, so think again.

Let's ignore the face that the Allied resistance only killed German and Nazi soldiers.

You're basically saying that killing any Jew on the planet is equivalent to killing a German/Nazi soldier.

Was your grandfather in the resistance? Mine was and I find the comparison disgusting.

My grandfather was fighting for the Nazis and I find it disgusting.

Let's ignore the face that the Allied resistance only killed German and Nazi soldiers.

You're basically saying that killing any Jew on the planet is equivalent to killing a German/Nazi soldier.



My grandfather was fighting for the Nazis and I find it disgusting.

No, I'm saying the resistance during WOII killed their oppressors, and so does Hamas, you can't ignore the fact that there are equalities.
My title was just to make sure people would come and read it and comment it.
I do not say that it's completely the same, I just say there are certain things the same.

Khaban;12750424']I never said that Jews are equal to nazi's were do you get that from?
And if I were a nazi then I would hate Jews, I would certainly not say that nazis are equivalent to jews, so think again.

When I said that Hezbollah killed Jews in Argentina and Hamas directs it's incitement to murder against Jews, not Israelis you responded with something about the resistance wanting to kill all nazis, not just German nazis. Your own analogy equates Jews with nazis in need of being killed. You're a fucking racist and you're also too much of a coward to own up to it.

Resistance against the fucking NAZIS was not good? There are very few clear cut cases of good vs. evil in the world, but the Nazis were pretty damn evil, man.

Don't go and say I'm a Nazi immediatly, oke?
But the soldiers of the Wehrmacht (the landtroops) were not all nazis, not even all the officers in the Wermacht were nazis, so the resistance in WOII not only killed nazis but also "regular" german boys and men.

Don't go and say I'm a Nazi immediatly, oke?
But the soldiers of the Wehrmacht (the landtroops) were not all nazis, not even all the officers in the Wermacht were nazis, so the resistance in WOII not only killed nazis but also "regular" german boys and men.

Wrong. It killed soldiers. There is a difference between intentionally killing the armed troops of a nation you're at war with and intentionally killing the children of a nation you're at war with. Israeli soldiers have crossed that line on occasion, but Palestinian terrorists make it their policy to ignore that line.

When I said that Hezbollah killed Jews in Argentina and Hamas directs it's incitement to murder against Jews, not Israelis you responded with something about the resistance wanting to kill all nazis, not just German nazis. Your own analogy equates Jews with nazis in need of being killed. You're a fucking racist and you're also too much of a coward to own up to it.


I might be a coward, but I'm certainly not a racist, one example, if you'll believe me, which I doubt: in every political quiz I'm always put in the anarchist corner, quite the opposite of the nazi/fascist/rascist corner.

I never said that the resistance in WOII was right, nor did I say Hitler was right, nor did I say that Israel or Hamas was right.
I don't say nazis are equal to jews in need of being killed.
I just pointed out an equal point between hamas and the resistance in WOII.

I might be a coward, but I'm certainly not a racist, one example, if you'll believe me, which I doubt: in every political quiz I'm always put in the anarchist corner, quite the opposite of the nazi/fascist/rascist corner.

I never said that the resistance in WOII was right, nor did I say Hitler was right, nor did I say that Israel or Hamas was right.
I don't say nazis are equal to jews in need of being killed.
I just pointed out an equal point between hamas and the resistance in WOII.

People of any political belief can be racists. Just because you're an anarchist doesn't mean you're not an antisemite. From your own prior statement I'm pretty convinced you're a racist. You did say that Jews were the equivalent of nazis. That's a fact. I'm not the only person who caught on to that.

So you're basically saying Hamas kills people because they're being occupied and the Resistance kill people because they're being occupied?

Thank you for that brilliant piece of insight.

'SHOCK: TWO PARAMILITARY ORGANIZATIONS SHARE SIMILAR TRAITS'

Wrong. It killed soldiers. There is a difference between intentionally killing the armed troops of a nation you're at war with and intentionally killing the children of a nation you're at war with. Israeli soldiers have crossed that line on occasion, but Palestinian terrorists make it their policy to ignore that line.

Israeli soldiers cross that line almost everytime they bomb someplace in Palestine and thay do it constantly because they are occupying a part of palestine, were normally palestinian children should be able to play and palestinian women should be able to talk and work and live.
Isreal even lets Palestinians work for so few wages it could almost be called slavery.

People of any political belief can be racists. Just because you're an anarchist doesn't mean you're not an antisemite. From your own prior statement I'm pretty convinced you're a racist. You did say that Jews were the equivalent of nazis. That's a fact. I'm not the only person who caught on to that.

Show me were I wrote/typed that nazis=jews.

Isreal even lets Palestinians work for so few wages it could almost be called slavery.

uh...

Israeli soldiers cross that line almost everytime they bomb someplace in Palestine and thay do it constantly because they are occupying a part of palestine, were normally palestinian children should be able to play and palestinian women should be able to talk and work and live.
Isreal even lets Palestinians work for so few wages it could almost be called slavery.

Bullshit. The targets of those bombs are terrorists who are using the Palestinian civilians as human shields by locating their rocket factories among them. The targets of the Palestinian rockets are schoolyards, homes, anything inside Israel. The targets of Palestinian suicide bombers are kids eating pizza in a restaurant, working folks getting on the bus, and shoppers in markets.

So you're basically saying Hamas kills people because they're being occupied and the Resistance kill people because they're being occupied?

Thank you for that brilliant piece of insight.

'SHOCK: TWO PARAMILITARY ORGANIZATIONS SHARE SIMILAR TRAITS'

Yea well, some people call you a rascist if you try to say that.
So it isn't that easy as you think.

Bullshit. The targets of those bombs are terrorists who are using the Palestinian civilians as human shields by locating their rocket factories among them. The targets of the Palestinian rockets are schoolyards, homes, anything inside Israel. The targets of Palestinian suicide bombers are kids eating pizza in a restaurant, working folks getting on the bus, and shoppers in markets.

the ones you call terrorists aren't using the palestinian people as a shield.
If you'd watch the news regularly you'd see that even israel admits it sometimes destroys houses of normal, not-terrorist palestinians.

Yea well, some people call you a rascist if you try to say that.
So it isn't that easy as you think.

I see where they're coming from, though. It's like saying 'Israel and Nazi Germany have many things in common.

... well, they were both countries.'

It's quite obvious, which is why one questions why you felt the need to point it out.

1) Golan Heights was taken from Syria in the 1967 war. Syria along with other arabs tried to destroy Israel and got their asses handed to them.

2) Hezbollah has attacked Jewish community centers in places like Buenos Aires, Argentina. Sounds to me like they're just trying to kill Jews. Hamas has made statements like the following.

Note he's not saying the Israelis, he's saying the Jews.

Khaban;12750346']Yes, and the resistance said they should kill all Nazi's, not only the german-Nazi's

Show me were I wrote/typed that nazis=jews.
There you go. In reply to my statement that Hamas' call to murder is targeted at Jews in general, not Israelis in particular you replied with "the resistance said they should kill all Nazi's, not only the german-Nazi's" It's pretty clear to anyone with any command of the English language that you consider ALL Jews to be equivalent to nazis in need of being killed. Satisfied lil' hitler?

muslimfundamentalists and the resistance in Belgium (probably also in the Netherlands, France, etc) were marxistic-fundamentalists, democratic-fundamentalists

OH NO, people fanatically in favour of democracy! :eek:

the ones you call terrorists aren't using the palestinian people as a shield.
If you'd watch the news regularly you'd see that even israel admits it sometimes destroys houses of normal, not-terrorist palestinians.

Got a link describing the circumstances? One would have to be a moron to believe that Israel would admit to blowing up civilians on purpose. Thus I see that you are not only a coward and a racist, but also a liar.

Got a link describing the circumstances? One would have to be a moron to believe that Israel would admit to blowing up civilians on purpose. Thus I see that you are not only a coward and a racist, but also a liar.

I'm sure Israel does admit it blows up civilians sometimes, although not on purpose. He didn't say anything about it being deliberate.

SHOCK: MODERN WEAPONRY NOT ALWAYS ACCURATE

There you go. In reply to my statement that Hamas' call to murder is targeted at Jews in general, not Israelis in particular you replied with "the resistance said they should kill all Nazi's, not only the german-Nazi's" It's pretty clear to anyone with any command of the English language that you consider ALL Jews to be equivalent to nazis in need of being killed. Satisfied lil' hitler?

Nope, it just shows that Hamas wants to kill all Jews and the Resistance wants to kill all Nazi's.
I never said I wanted to kill all jews or all nazi's. I just said want Hamas and the Resistance wanted to.
You really want me to be a nazi, which is quite weird for someone who is against nazis.

Nope, it just shows that Hamas wants to kill all Jews and the Resistance wants to kill all Nazi's.
I never said I wanted to kill all jews or all nazi's. I just said want Hamas and the Resistance wanted to.
You really want me to be a nazi, which is quite weird for someone who is against nazis.

You're arguing that they're justified in killing Jews as the resistance was justified in killing nazis.

You're arguing that they're justified in killing Jews as the resistance was justified in killing nazis.

I'm saying that they're justified in killing Israeli's if the Resistance was justified in killing germans or nazis.

I'm saying that they're justified in killing Israeli's if the Resistance was justified in killing germans or nazis.

... so you're saying killing Jews is equivalent to killing Nazis. There, the truth comes out.

No, I'm saying the resistance during WOII killed their oppressors, and so does Hamas, you can't ignore the fact that there are equalities.
My title was just to make sure people would come and read it and comment it.
I do not say that it's completely the same, I just say there are certain things the same.

Many resistance fighters didn't kill anyone. Many made it a point not to kill. Some made it a point to kill anyone who stood in their path: They were wrong. Some killed soldiers: I will not argue for or against them.

Hamas makes it a point to kill anyone even associating with the oppression. That makes them as terrorist as those resistance fighters that made the exact same point.

... so you're saying killing Jews is equivalent to killing Nazis. There, the truth comes out.

No, you should read the small words with more care. Let me say it again.

I say that if the Resistance had the right to kill the Nazi-German oppressor, then Hamas has the right to kill the Israeli oppressor.

And if both groups should be killed, then it still doesn't mean that they are equal or the same.

I'm saying that they're justified in killing Israeli's if the Resistance was justified in killing germans or nazis.

No, you clearly supported them in killing Jews, not Israelis specifically. That was the whole point in pointing out that the resistance killed all nazis, not just German nazis. I wonder how you feel about all the Arab nazis like the Mufti of Jerusalem? That must confuse the shit out of you because you dislike nazis, but you love anyone who kills Jews.

No, you clearly supported them in killing Jews, not Israelis specifically. That was the whole point in pointing out that the resistance killed all nazis, not just German nazis. I wonder how you feel about all the Arab nazis like the Mufti of Jerusalem? That must confuse the shit out of you because you dislike nazis, but you love anyone who kills Jews.

Nope, I am against killing in general, but you'll probably never believe me because you already put me in the fascist/nazi corner and you don't want to put me anywhere else.
But you seem to me completely against muslims or am I wrong?

No, you should read the small words with more care. Let me say it again.

I say that if the Resistance had the right to kill the Nazi-German oppressor, then Hamas has the right to kill the Israeli oppressor.

And if both groups should be killed, then it still doesn't mean that they are equal or the same.

You shouldn't add in words like 'oppressor' in your latest post and then complain I should read things with more care.

Who cares if it's not equal? They both should hypothetically be killed. Unless you're advocating killing one in more cruel ways, it works out exactly the same.

They also made an attempt of Salman Rushdie's life IIRC.

Quoted in the hope of getting a response.

Did the Dutch resistance take the time to hunt down travel journalists who'd been rude about Holland?

Nope, I am against killing in general, but you'll probably never believe me because you already put me in the fascist/nazi corner and you don't want to put me anywhere else.
But you seem to me completely against muslims or am I wrong?

Nope. I'm against the Islamic supremacists. Ordinary Muslims are regular people. No better or worse than anyone else.

Nope, I am against killing in general, but you'll probably never believe me because you already put me in the fascist/nazi corner and you don't want to put me anywhere else.

You justified Hezbollah's attack on a Jewish community centre in South America, how is that consistent with being 'against killing'?

You justified Hezbollah's attack on a Jewish community centre in South America, how is that consistent with being 'against killing'?

When have I justified it? I only say that Hezbollah has equivalents with the Resistance. I never said anyone was good or bad, read the posts better please.

You justified Hezbollah's attack on a Jewish community centre in South America, how is that consistent with being 'against killing'?

It's pretty consistent with being a racist who's cowardly enough to backtrack from his statement.

It's pretty consistent with being a racist who's cowardly enough to backtrack from his statement.

I don't get it, I try to make a little link between Hamas and the Resistance, and immediatly you say I'm a rascist and a nazi.
Do you always accuse people so easy of being a rascist and a nazi?

I don't get it, I try to make a little link between Hamas and the Resistance, and immediatly you say I'm a rascist and a nazi.
Do you always accuse people so easy of being a rascist and a nazi?

No. Only when I think they are racists.

1) Golan Heights was taken from Syria in the 1967 war. Syria along with other arabs tried to destroy Israel and got their asses handed to them.

2) Hezbollah has attacked Jewish community centers in places like Buenos Aires, Argentina. Sounds to me like they're just trying to kill Jews. Hamas has made statements like the following.

Note he's not saying the Israelis, he's saying the Jews.

Khaban;12750346']Yes, and the resistance said they should kill all Nazi's, not only the german-Nazi's

When have I justified it? I only say that Hezbollah has equivalents with the Resistance. I never said anyone was good or bad, read the posts better please.

You equivocated killing German soldiers with killing Jewish civilians a thousand miles away. In other words, you equivocated justified resistance with cold-blooded murder.

I don't get it, I try to make a little link between Hamas and the Resistance, and immediatly you say I'm a rascist and a nazi.
Do you always accuse people so easy of being a rascist and a nazi?

Hamas policy is a terrorist policy. The goal is to kill (without discrimination, whether they are soldiers or civilians doesn't matter) to further a political goal. That is the whole organizations public policy.

The resistance was not one homogenous group and they did not have one major terrorist policy. They were not all or even most, terrorists, since they did not actively seek to kill civilians to further a political goal. Some did and are no better than Hamas, most didn't.

No, you should read the small words with more care. Let me say it again.

I say that if the Resistance had the right to kill the Nazi-German oppressor, then Hamas has the right to kill the Israeli oppressor.

And if both groups should be killed, then it still doesn't mean that they are equal or the same.

I'd feel much more comfortable of Israel returning the occupied lands if they can be sure that that land won't be used to attack Israel more easily. Which at the moment is exactly what will happen.

Comparing Hamas to Resistance groups in WWII is pretty amusing since they targeted Nazis and Hamas just wants to kill anyone they can in their bloodlust. Bit of a difference.

It's pretty consistent with being a racist who's cowardly enough to backtrack from his statement.

Yep.

No. Only when I think they are racists.

Well you're completely wrong, but you'll never believe me so this discussion has no meaning anymore and I've got to go so just stay in your fucked up world were you are right and everyone who has another opinion is a rascist and a nazi.

Bullshit. The targets of those bombs are terrorists who are using the Palestinian civilians as human shields by locating their rocket factories among them. The targets of the Palestinian rockets are schoolyards, homes, anything inside Israel. The targets of Palestinian suicide bombers are kids eating pizza in a restaurant, working folks getting on the bus, and shoppers in markets.


I'm sure Israel does admit it blows up civilians sometimes, although not on purpose. He didn't say anything about it being deliberate.

SHOCK: MODERN WEAPONRY NOT ALWAYS ACCURATE.

Strange then, than I can provide (and have provided) numerous incidents where the IDF have targeted schools, buses, ambulances, UN personell, NGO personell, reporters, women, children, peaceful protests....And they tend to use the far more discriminate rifle to do it.......

Have you never read any of the links I've posted at all, or does your mind refuse to accept it?

As for your usual "human shields".....

http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6432133.stm

http://www.btselem.org/english/Testimonies/20070515_Majd_Ghanem_Human_Shield_in_Jenin_MP.asp

Well you're completely wrong, but you'll never believe me so this discussion has no meaning anymore and I've got to go so just stay in your fucked up world were you are right and everyone who has another opinion is a rascist and a nazi.

I disagree with a lot of people without thinking them to be racist. You did make a racist statement though.

Well you're completely wrong, but you'll never believe me so this discussion has no meaning anymore and I've got to go so just stay in your fucked up world were you are right and everyone who has another opinion is a rascist and a nazi.

Comparing the Nazis to Israel hardly helps your argument here. If you actually think the two are equal in their occupation then clearly you are antisemitic. When Israel herds Palestinians into death camps we can talk about this again. When Hamas no longer wishes the destruction of the state of Israel we can talk about this again. But I seriously doubt either will occur so I really can't see how Israel can afford to give up the territories.

Have you never read any of the links I've posted at all, or does your mind refuse to accept it?

As for your usual "human shields".....

http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6432133.stm

http://www.btselem.org/english/Testimonies/20070515_Majd_Ghanem_Human_Shield_in_Jenin_MP.asp

Your first link says that the tactic has been explicitly forbidden by the Israeli Supreme Court and the BBC link says that the allegation is being investigated. When did Hamas or any other Palestinian terror group declare that locating bomb-factories in densely populated areas was wrong, or investigate individuals who did so?

International law is very clear about the use of human shields: the responsibility for any civilian injured or killed while being used as shields lies with those using them as shields. I certainly agree that the IDF soldiers and the officers in charge during the incident should be court marshalled and held responsible for their actions, possibly higher ranking officers as well if they were negligent. Are you willing to apply the same standard to the Palestinians and hold Hamas and the like responsible for the dead civilians who were used as shields for bomb factories or millitants?

Nope, it just shows that Hamas wants to kill all Jews and the Resistance wants to kill all Nazi's.
I never said I wanted to kill all jews or all nazi's. I just said want Hamas and the Resistance wanted to.
You really want me to be a nazi, which is quite weird for someone who is against nazis.

Holy shit you're a fucking idiot...seriously ask your grandpa for one of those diapers and beat yourself with it.

Holy shit you're a fucking idiot...seriously ask your grandpa for one of those diapers and beat yourself with it.

LOL :p

If Hamas solely targeted Israeli soldiers and military facilities, and did not attack civilians, the comparison would be more appropriate. Same with Hezbollah (though, admittedly, if that was the case, then the summer war would probably not have happened).

However, both Hamas and Hezbollah have specifically targeted civilians. I'd rather not sidetrack this thread by debating whether or not the Israelis target civilians, so let's leave this question aside.

As for Shebaa Farms, Israel maintains that the territory was taken from Syria, not Lebanon. That's an issue for the diplomats to work out.

Your first link says that the tactic has been explicitly forbidden by the Israeli Supreme Court

After it had been perfectly legal for how long?



and the BBC link says that the allegation is being investigated.


The allegation of that incident. Theres a very large number listed on the B'tselem website.


Are you willing to apply the same standard to the Palestinians and hold Hamas and the like responsible for the dead civilians who were used as shields for bomb factories or millitants?


I believe Amnesty urged a tribunal to prosecute both sides. I would support that.

Wrong. It killed soldiers. There is a difference between intentionally killing the armed troops of a nation you're at war with and intentionally killing the children of a nation you're at war with. Israeli soldiers have crossed that line on occasion, but Palestinian terrorists make it their policy to ignore that line.

Strange then, than I can provide (and have provided) numerous incidents where the IDF have targeted schools, buses, ambulances, UN personell, NGO personell, reporters, women, children, peaceful protests....And they tend to use the far more discriminate rifle to do it.......

Have you never read any of the links I've posted at all, or does your mind refuse to accept it?

As for your usual "human shields".....

http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6432133.stm

http://www.btselem.org/english/Testimonies/20070515_Majd_Ghanem_Human_Shield_in_Jenin_MP.asp

I haven't said that Israeli soldiers haven't crossed the line and intentionally hit civilians in the past. In fact I mentioned that they have. See the post quoted above yours. Still groups like Hamas almost always aim their attacks at the civilian population.

After it had been perfectly legal for how long?

It's an improvement, and it shows that Israel has a central authority which is willing and able to call out the military when they're acting unacceptably. It'd be nice if Hezbollah had the same.

The allegation of that incident. Theres a very large number listed on the B'tselem website.

I don't think there's any military in the world which reliably punishes its troops for breaching orders, with the possible exception of Japan. Look at the endless 'sex for food' scandals involving soldiers under UN control. The IDF is (very) far from perfect, but it's still better than most armies would be in the same situation.

I believe Amnesty urged a tribunal to prosecute both sides. I would support that.

That sounds fair. Unfortunately it'll never happen.

It's an improvement, and it shows that Israel has a central authority which is willing and able to call out the military when they're acting unacceptably..

Yet the incidents go on. You are aware of the notorious lack of prosecutions of IDF personell, and the scarcity of conviction when those charges are brought? These incidents are not neccessarily unnacceptable to a section of Israeli society, in case you weren't aware.



The IDF is (very) far from perfect, but it's still better than most armies would be in the same situation...

You aren't too aware of what the IDF do, I suggest. Fortunately theres many that are.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/846344.html

“Who is the enemy?” asks Avichai Sharon. “I never saw the enemy. I saw society. I was three years fighting society in Palestinian cities.”

“Ninety-eight percent of the army’s energy is aimed against society. It’s even said among the higher ranks, ‘We will burn into the consciousness of Palestinian society that it’s not worthwhile to fight the IDF.’”

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/11/listening_post/main708205.shtml
“
I haven't said that Israeli soldiers haven't crossed the line and intentionally hit civilians in the past. In fact I mentioned that they have. See the post quoted above yours. Still groups like Hamas almost always aim their attacks at the civilian population.

And the IDF don't? They are there to occupy. A colonial force aims to subdue the population, as a subdued population is less likely to act en masse or effectively. You should read and listen to the former IDF personell in the
2nd link above.

2) Hezbollah has attacked Jewish community centers in places like Buenos Aires.Deja vu..
But if you insist, we can do it all over again ;)

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http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12711238&postcount=30

(Hezbolla) bombed a Jewish community center in Buenos Aires says you.

The resistance in WWII didn't want to destroy Germany and it's citizens. Well.. after some French saw men, women and children die under the German bombs.. I am sure many of them started to hate the Germans.

I mean.. how did you feel on September 11?

Were you on a "oh well, shit happens" mood?
Were telling yourself: "oh well, lets forget about this and talk about peace.. lets look forward to the future and leave behind the past." ??

is that how you felt that september?

is that how you felt that september?

No, I felt exactly how the Israelis felt: aghast that such brutal, fiendish terrorist organizations (be they Al-Qaeda or Hamas) could commit such a dastardly and atrocious act. I felt the need to retaliate against such nihilistic groups in a military manner to ensure that such a gruesome plot did not come to fruition again. I felt compelled to support whatever course of action was necessary in order to subdue those heinous terrorists; thus, I applauded the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq (although I don't want to get side-lined by the issue of whether or not Saddam Hussein had links to Al-Qaeda). Similarly, many Israelis supported the incursions into Lebanon and Palestine in order to protect civilians from the deadly missiles of the terrorists.

1) Israel is not occupying Lebanon.

2) The resistance in WWII didn't want to destroy Germany and it's citizens. Hamas wants to destory Israel and it's citizens.

I agree that Israel should pull back it's settlements and set a border that allows for a viable Palestinian state, but I can't support terrorist groups who's eventual goal is genocide and the destruction of a democratic nation.

You know, I think I'll give up posting in these threads. DCD always gets their first.

I felt the need to retaliate against such nihilistic groups in a military manner to ensure that such a gruesome plot did not come to fruition again. I felt compelled to support whatever course of action was necessary in order to subdue those heinous terrorists; thus, I applauded the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq (although I don't want to get side-lined by the issue of whether or not Saddam Hussein had links to Al-Qaeda).Dont you think the French or the Palestinians or anyone would feel any different ?.

This is your original Post.. Its all about how you feel and how Israelis feel.. extremely one-sidedNo, I felt exactly how the Israelis felt: aghast that such brutal, fiendish terrorist organizations (be they Al-Qaeda or Hamas) could commit such a dastardly and atrocious act. I felt the need to retaliate against such nihilistic groups in a military manner to ensure that such a gruesome plot did not come to fruition again. I felt compelled to support whatever course of action was necessary in order to subdue those heinous terrorists; thus, I applauded the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq (although I don't want to get side-lined by the issue of whether or not Saddam Hussein had links to Al-Qaeda). Similarly, many Israelis supported the incursions into Lebanon and Palestine in order to protect civilians from the deadly missiles of the terrorists.

Now I am going to use my magic keyboard to make it International.

No, I felt exactly how the Palestinians/Israelis/Lebanese/Americans/French/etc felt against that brutal, fiendish terrorist organizations (be they CIA or KGB or Gestapo or Al-Qaeda or Hamas or IDF) could commit such a dastardly and atrocious acts. I felt the need to retaliate against such nihilistic groups in a military manner to ensure that such a gruesome plots do not come to fruition again. I felt compelled to support whatever course of action was necessary in order to subdue those heinous terrorists; thus, I applauded the attacks of (insert any attack here) Similarly, many Palestinians/Israelis/Lebanese/Americans/French/etc supported the (insert any attack here) in order to protect civilians from the deadly bombs of the terrorists.

Differentiation exists because of ideology. The Belgian, French, Polish, and other resistance movements during the War were anti-fascists, and typically pro-democratic. Hamas and Hizb'Allah go against every belief in the free world.

Differentiation exists because of ideology. The Belgian, French, Polish, and other resistance movements during the War were anti-fascists...Actually they were anti-German.

Due to the simple fact that the occupation army was German.

Insurgency is not about ideology.. Let me give you an example.. Lets say Russia invaded China.. or China invaded Vietnam.

You think the peasants are going to say.. "wait they are communists like we are.. lets NOT make an insurgency"

:rolleyes:

There is a big difference in resisting tyranny and oppression under Fascism and Nazism, who wanted to turn the world into a place rid of Jews and minorities, and the resistance in Iraq--where the resisters are the ones who want to rid the world of Jews and anyone who doesn't agree with their religious ideology.

Yes, there are large pockets of resistance who are going strictly after the US army, but honestly, if we up and leave Iraq due to these pockets, those fighters won't be able to take over the country, so it will be left in the hands of an extreme hardliner with an army of followers (which I believe the current Iraq government wants to do with al-Sadr, the resistance fighter with an armed force in the thousands--sure would explain why they are so inactive).

This situation is far too complicated to start comparing Islamic and Kurdish/Pakistani terrorists in Iraq to freedom fighters.

Actually they were anti-German.

Due to the simple fact that the occupation army was German.

Insurgency is not about ideology.. Let me give you an example.. Lets say Russia invaded China.. or China invaded Vietnam.

You think the peasants are going to say.. "wait they are communists like we are.. lets NOT make an insurgency"

:rolleyes:
Of course insurgency has nothing to do with ideology. But that doesn't exclude the fact that insurgents have one, nor seek to build a post-insurgency society. Besides, that's the major criterion of my support. If China actually did invade Vietnam successfully back in '79, I could care less who won, except if it had an entirely pragmatic interest.

.. that's the major criterion of my support. If China actually did invade Vietnam successfully back in '79, I could care less who won, except if it had an entirely pragmatic interest.So you would not support Polish/Soviet/Yugoslavian insurgency againts Nazi occupation in WW2 ?

So you would not support Polish/Soviet/Yugoslavian insurgency againts Nazi occupation in WW2 ?

Well, the Poles were a different story. As for the other two, I wouldn't have cared. In fact, if I lived in 1941, I would have probably cheered a Nazi invasion of the USSR. Two of the most evil countries in the world could destroy each other. But if I were a world leader, I would conditionally support those insurgencies for pragmatic reasons. I wouldn't do the unconditional soul selling our president did then.

Comparing Hamas to the resistance of WW2 is simply prepostorous.

On the other hand, it looked like some people couldn't pass up the chance to ramp up their "Israel is the Justice League and all Muslims are evil terrorists with a mindlink to Bin Ladin" sentiments again.

Deja vu..
But if you insist, we can do it all over again ;)

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http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12711238&postcount=30

says you.

Lawl.

Brilliant argument there.

Nodinia- I'm sure the IDF have targeted civilians on occasion. The question was if they had admitted it, and they'd be ridiculously stupid to do so.

Comparing Hamas to the resistance of WW2 is simply prepostorous.

On the other hand, it looked like FreedomAndGlory [who doesn't count because he's a troll] couldn't pass up the chance to ramp up their "Israel is the Justice League and all Muslims are evil terrorists with a mindlink to Bin Ladin" sentiments again.

fixed...