NationStates Jolt Archive

The US was originally founded on the idea that everyone made their own destinies and that our worth was determined by ourselves. If someone wanted to just be a farmer he'd be a farmer, if someone wanted to become rich he had to work for it. Nearly everyone was free to try to reach their goals. In America the poor could become rich through hard work, immigrants [legal ones] who lost everything could get back on their feet. In present day many racial and sexist walls have been broken down which is a good thing however nowadays it seems that we are stuck in our classes now. The large corporations almost always stamp out new businesses so no one can work their way up the economic ladder no matter how much effort is put into it due to the fact that the odds always seem to be against the poor in present day America no one can determine their career as freely as they once could. If your low class you have to stay there, minorities get more rights than the average man when the walls broken down between the minority and the common man were supposed to make the common man and the minority equal, the media gets tons of power and can go around infringing on privacy and libelling without punishment and celebs get less punishment for crimes. The media gets to tell us whats popular and not popular even though the populace is the one to decide then expects us to meet their expectations. Anorexic chicks for example, they only do it to look like the ridiculously thin models. It seems to me a new class structure has arisen. Once again the rich are staying rich and having their way and making the poor poorer. It seems that they control our destinies and that it's not up to us anymore.

Oh, bull. You can sit home feeling sorry for yourself, or you can take risks, get more education, build a better whatever.

It's only those who are afraid to step out of the cubicle farm who are trapped anywhere.

Right... why do you need to become rich?
Why do you do whatever media tells you?
Why do you feel the urge to complain on a forum?

Oh, bull. You can sit home feeling sorry for yourself, or you can take risks, get more education, build a better whatever.

It's only those who are afraid to step out of the cubicle farm who are trapped anywhere.

Though I must agree that people aren't willing to risk enough to accomplish much in the way of class upgrading, I must also agree that the process is a lot different now than during our founding, mostly because we are a different (read: industrialized) society now, when we used to be non-industrial.

I don't what you learned in history class, but it wasn't US history. The US was founded, just as pretty much every other country, on the idea that the landed elites wanted to control their own destinies.The rich have always had their own sets of rules, and I don't see that changing unless we start being able to easily change energy into matter a la the replicator technology from Star Trek. And even then I have my doubts.

Look at the Founding Fathers. They weren't Everyman--they were the wealthy elites, and they were fighting for lower taxes from the British and a bit more self-government, but not because of noble ideas about the equality of the lower classes. They were fighting because they wanted to be the people in charge. Jefferson wasn't talking about anyone other than landowning white people when he wrote about the inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as well as the whole all men created equal stuff.

Right... why do you need to become rich?
Why do you do whatever media tells you?
Why do you feel the urge to complain on a forum?

1) No one NEEDs to be rich, but they should at least have the oppurtunity rather than having the already rich make it impossible for others to climb the economic ladder.

2) I don't, but many think they do even though they don't and those who don't tend to get snubbed or beat up or [place horrible thing to do to unpopular here]

3) Thought it'd be worth the discussion.

I don't what you learned in history class, but it wasn't US history. The US was founded, just as pretty much every other country, on the idea that the landed elites wanted to control their own destinies.The rich have always had their own sets of rules, and I don't see that changing unless we start being able to easily change energy into matter a la the replicator technology from Star Trek. And even then I have my doubts.

Look at the Founding Fathers. They weren't Everyman--they were the wealthy elites, and they were fighting for lower taxes from the British and a bit more self-government, but not because of noble ideas about the equality of the lower classes. They were fighting because they wanted to be the people in charge. Jefferson wasn't talking about anyone other than landowning white people when he wrote about the inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as well as the whole all men created equal stuff.

Wait weren't some of them middle class or poor yet good leaders?

Though I must agree that people aren't willing to risk enough to accomplish much in the way of class upgrading, I must also agree that the process is a lot different now than during our founding, mostly because we are a different (read: industrialized) society now, when we used to be non-industrial.

There's also precious little reward to go after. Class mobility in the US is the biggest myth of all. There's more of it in Europe right now, because if you take a risk and fail, you don't wind up homeless, sleeping in the park and eating Burger King leftovers. That'll happen to you in the US, and people know it, so they hold on to what they have with white knuckles and turn xenophobic, afraid some brown person is going to take what little shit they've managed to amass.

There's also precious little reward to go after. Class mobility in the US is the biggest myth of all. There's more of it in Europe right now, because if you take a risk and fail, you don't wind up homeless, sleeping in the park and eating Burger King leftovers. That'll happen to you in the US, and people know it, so they hold on to what they have with white knuckles and turn xenophobic, afraid some brown person is going to take what little shit they've managed to amass.

Yup. That explains it...

The US was originally founded on the idea that everyone made their own destinies and that our worth was determined by ourselves. If someone wanted to just be a farmer he'd be a farmer, if someone wanted to become rich he had to work for it. Nearly everyone was free to try to reach their goals. In America the poor could become rich through hard work, immigrants [legal ones] who lost everything could get back on their feet.And back then, as today, the ones who pulled that off were the minority. And they tended to fuck people over hard core to do so (I'm looking at you Mellon, Carnegie, Rockerfeller, etc.)
In present day many racial and sexist walls have been broken down which is a good thing however nowadays it seems that we are stuck in our classes now. Racial and sexist walls still exist. they are far from gone. And we are no more stuck in our SES today than in the past.
The large corporations almost always stamp out new businesses so no one can work their way up the economic ladder no matter how much effort is put into it due to the fact that the odds always seem to be against the poor in present day America no one can determine their career as freely as they once couldHoly run on sentence, batman!
large corporations exist to compete, and use their resources to do so. A person could still work their way up within the corporation. Not every person has to be their own boss. Not to mention, we have tons of companies that just recently started (Amazon, Google, etc.) that have shown that anyone CAN still succeed with a good idea and good implimentation. Hell, even Microsoft is a baby of a company. And, if a store has good enough loyalty, they can reject the Wal*Mart's of the world, as has been done in urban centers throughout the Northeast.
And if you go to college, you pretty much have free choice at your carrear. You have to work for it, yes. But I, or anyone else who got the grades can move on to college and get their degree in whatever field they choose.
If your low class you have to stay there,Or you have to work, get a scholarship, and actually put effort into it. America has NEVER said "Oh, you're poor? Here, we'll give you this little company and run it for you and give you all the profits.
minorities get more rights than the average man when the walls broken down between the minority and the common man were supposed to make the common man and the minority equalOdd...minorities form the majority of the lower classes that you just said have to stay there. And no, they don't have more rights.
the media gets tons of power and can go around infringing on privacy and libelling without punishmentWhen is the last time CNN infringed on privacy or libeled? And why is a good media a bad thing?
and celebs get less punishment for crimes.Last I checked, Paris Hilton is currently in jail...as was Martha Stewart.
The media gets to tell us whats popular and not popular even though the populace is the one to decide then expects us to meet their expectations. ...the media tells us what is popular, but we get to decide what is popular? um...what?
Anorexic chicks for example, they only do it to look like the ridiculously thin models.Oh, bull fucking shit. How about if you learn what Anorexia Nervosa actually is (hint: control issues have alot to do with it) before spouting that every fat girl isn't eating because they want to look like Kait Moss.
It seems to me a new class structure has arisen.It never left.
Once again the rich are staying rich and having their way and making the poor poorer.Because the rich should become poor simply because they are rich? Nope, sorry. And no one is making the poor poorer. They can work their way into good jobs, same as anyone else.
It seems that they control our destinies and that it's not up to us anymore.So rather than doing something to make your options better, you go on your computer (hint: if you own a computer, you ain't that poor) and bitch. Do something rather than complain. you might see some results.

Wait weren't some of them middle class or poor yet good leaders?
Not the movers and shakers. Thomas Paine was probably the exception, but even Ben Franklin, by the time he was a revolutionary, was a wealthy man. Jefferson was a Virginia planter, as was Washington. John Adams was a Massachusetts lawyer. The list goes on.

Read a little Howard Zinn for some perspective on the American mythos.

Oh, bull. You can sit home feeling sorry for yourself, or you can take risks, get more education, build a better whatever.

It's only those who are afraid to step out of the cubicle farm who are trapped anywhere.

Well, there are undoubtedly those who cannot pull them out of the pit without external help, surely?

Wait weren't some of them middle class or poor yet good leaders?

Yes.

A lot of our leaders over the years have been from lower or middle class backgrounds. Presidents from Jackson to Grant to Nixon, for example.

Oh, bull. You can sit home feeling sorry for yourself, or you can take risks, get more education, build a better whatever.

It's only those who are afraid to step out of the cubicle farm who are trapped anywhere.

Very true, for the most part. Inflation is always troubling and catches some people in bad ways, but the economy over the years has been much more open and accessable than many others.

Read a little Howard Zinn for some perspective on the American mythos.

Who would read that capitalist bastard's writings?

Well, there are undoubtedly those who cannot pull them out of the pit without external help, surely?
She didn't say do it on your own. She just said do it. Most get outside help (parents, scholarships, teachers and tutors, etc.)
Who would read that capitalist bastard's writings?

Someone who wanted insight into the American mythos. Read, understand, then respond. And attempt to go for the topic being discussed.

Though I must agree that people aren't willing to risk enough to accomplish much in the way of class upgrading, I must also agree that the process is a lot different now than during our founding, mostly because we are a different (read: industrialized) society now, when we used to be non-industrial.

I have friends who quit their cube farm jobs, and started selling things on Ebay full time. First, lunch boxes. Then, Mexican Lobby Cards (you know, the decorations they put up in movie theaters?).

They have the house, 2 kids, dog, picket fence, both work at home and set their own hours, and have everything they want and need. She writes books occasionally too.

They support a family of four doing that -- comfortably -- because they took risks and managed to find what people want.

Not the movers and shakers. Thomas Paine was probably the exception, but even Ben Franklin, by the time he was a revolutionary, was a wealthy man. Jefferson was a Virginia planter, as was Washington. John Adams was a Massachusetts lawyer. The list goes on.

Read a little Howard Zinn for some perspective on the American mythos.
Oh come on, Howard Zinn is hardly objective. And you so state that Ben Franklin worked his way out of middle class...

Very true, for the most part. Inflation is always troubling and catches some people in bad ways, but the economy over the years has been much more open and accessable than many others.
Adding to that, the small, sole-proprietor type business is what has been growing the most rapidly since the dot-com bubble burst. I took a risk, started and sold a business, now I'm thinking about doing it again, but in an entirely different market.

Opportunity is there, too many of you waste it...

A fascist is mad about other people controlling his destiny?

You win the Iron Award for an Ironic Display of Unintentional Irony.

A fascist is mad about other people controlling his destiny?

You win the Iron Award for an Ironic Display of Unintentional Irony.

I would like to take this oppurtunity to thank everyone who made it possible for to earn this. :p *waves it around*

When is the last time CNN infringed on privacy or libeled? And why is a good media a bad thing?

I take that to mean that it's good if the news media take liberties with people's privacy?

And no, CNN is NOT good news media, at least not by itself. Neither (by itself) is Fox News or any of the rest of them. They need to be balanced out by each other.

I think it's a sad reflection that you have to take such a risk, that it if doesn't work you end up falling through the cracks of society, begging for spare change.

As for the OP, The US was originally founded on the idea that everyone made their own destinies and that our worth was determined by ourselves.
Just fuck the natives who were there already, right?

If someone wanted to just be a farmer he'd be a farmer,
On whose land? Oh that's right. And what labour? Ah.

if someone wanted to become rich he had to work for it.
Isn't that the way life is today still?

Nearly everyone was free to try to reach their goals. In America the poor could become rich through hard work
Unless you were black, or maybe, for instance "No Irish need apply"? That ilk?

Oh come on, Howard Zinn is hardly objective. And you so state that Ben Franklin worked his way out of middle class...

I didn't say he was. But he offers a different perspective than the one offered in the traditional classroom, one that is obviously neglected right now. And yes, Franklin worked his way up, but he was the exception rather than the rule, and by the time he was involved in the revolution, he was firmly ensconced in the upper class.

I didn't say he was. But he offers a different perspective than the one offered in the traditional classroom, one that is obviously neglected right now. And yes, Franklin worked his way up, but he was the exception rather than the rule, and by the time he was involved in the revolution, he was firmly ensconced in the upper class.
Different perspective is putting it mildly about someone who readily discards facts in favor of theory. I imagine discussing the shortcomings of Zinn would be the makings of another thread, though.

The American society right now is probably the worst as it has ever been.

We need some kind of terrible pleague, famine, drought, or MAJOR war so we can all unite and appreciate what we have.

The American society right now is probably the worst as it has ever been.

We need some kind of terrible pleague, famine, drought, or MAJOR war so we can all unite and appreciate what we have.
We did that for about a week in 2001. Then the parties that be saw political advantage to be taken and we've been mostly back to normal ever since.

A fascist is mad about other people controlling his destiny?

You win the Iron Award for an Ironic Display of Unintentional Irony.

The American society right now is probably the worst as it has ever been.

We need some kind of terrible pleague, famine, drought, or MAJOR war so we can all unite and appreciate what we have.

When the dems make the troops pull out the middle east might unify create a large and powerful empire and declare all out war on us. And the nations that are pissed at us like China and Russia might ally them.

When the dems make the troops pull out the middle east might unify create a large and powerful empire and declare all out war on us. And the nations that are pissed at us like China and Russia might ally them.

Do you realize the lack of possibility of the Middle East being an actual enemy?

Do you realize the lack of possibility of the Middle East being an actual enemy?

I read in te CS monitor that the whole middle east is getting pissed at the US and they are creating alliances because all of them are afraid the US would invade them next. Kinda like how in WWI nations afraid of invasion made alliances even with nations they hated.

I take that to mean that it's good if the news media take liberties with people's privacy?
I'm not exactly sure how you got that out of what I said...
And no, CNN is NOT good news media, at least not by itself. Neither (by itself) is Fox News or any of the rest of them. They need to be balanced out by each other.
Nor did I claim that any in isolation are good.
Although, I will make that claim now. You can have good news media in one organization. It is better to have many sources, but an individual source can also be quite good.

I think it's a sad reflection that you have to take such a risk, that it if doesn't work you end up falling through the cracks of society, begging for spare change.Why is it a sad reflection that you have to take a big risk? Success should never be easy...you should have to work hard to get what you want.
And there is nothing that says that one failure leads to a life of failure. Pick yourself up and do something else. Cut your losses, and start over. At worst, declare bankrupcy, and literally restart.

Why should we be revulsed by having to work hard?
I didn't say he was. But he offers a different perspective than the one offered in the traditional classroom, one that is obviously neglected right now. And yes, Franklin worked his way up, but he was the exception rather than the rule, and by the time he was involved in the revolution, he was firmly ensconced in the upper class.
I'd also cite Franklin as a huge exception to the rule as he was one of the few who seemed truly concerned about the welfare of all his countrymen, not only the wealthy.

Why is it a sad reflection that you have to take a big risk? Success should never be easy...you should have to work hard to get what you want.
And there is nothing that says that one failure leads to a life of failure. Pick yourself up and do something else.
I meant, if you fail and you're fucked - it's a sad reflection that the attitude is "*shrug* oh well"

Cut your losses, and start over. At worst, declare bankrupcy, and literally restart.
Go to the next homeless person on the street you see. Walk up to them, lean over them and say "Just start over. Just cut your losses. Are you afraid of hard work?"

Why should we be revulsed by having to work hard?

Who says we are?

Oh, bull. You can sit home feeling sorry for yourself, or you can take risks, get more education, build a better whatever.

It's only those who are afraid to step out of the cubicle farm who are trapped anywhere.

I disagree, humans desire permanence and security in employment, set wages, routine, and they like to know that the government is looking after them, cry government restriction all you like but it's the truth.

I meant, if you fail and you're fucked - it's a sad reflection that the attitude is "*shrug* oh well"
ahh...gotcha

Go to the next homeless person on the street you see. Walk up to them, lean over them and say "Just start over. Just cut your losses. Are you afraid of hard work?"the standard homeless person (atleast in my area) is not homeless for financial, but rather, for mental health reasons.
If you take a risk and it is failing, cut your losses and start over. And if you find yourself on the street, work your ass off and get off the street. People have done it (and no, this isn't an argument against welfare. Just an argument for hard work)


Who says we are?I think I misunderstood what you said. None the less, it would seem that the op is.

I disagree, humans desire permanence and security in employment, set wages, routine, and they like to know that the government is looking after them, cry government restriction all you like but it's the truth.

Where did Kat say anything about government restriction? Her argument is that no one is stuck: there are options. You just need the proverbial balls to take them.

Yeah, job security is nice. Unless you hate your job. Then, it kinda sucks.

I disagree, humans desire permanence and security in employment, set wages, routine, and they like to know that the government is looking after them, cry government restriction all you like but it's the truth.

But that's a choice that they make -- and if they make that choice, then to be upset that they don't get the benefits successful risk-takers got is childish and silly. And where did I EVER cry government restriction?

[Edit: Heh, Sarkhaan, you got there first. ;)]

Who would read that capitalist bastard's writings?

Anybosy that has had my AP U.S. History teacher. Howard Zinn's "Voices" book was required reading. I hate that nutcase of an author.

And no, CNN is NOT good news media, at least not by itself. Neither (by itself) is Fox News or any of the rest of them. They need to be balanced out by each other.

You're right. The only stand alone, unbiased news agency available is the Stewart-Colbert Power Hour!! Now if Comedy Central were to just merge the two shows into an hour long program with those two as co-anchors, then it would be even more fun!!!!

I disagree, humans desire permanence and security in employment, set wages, routine, and they like to know that the government is looking after them, cry government restriction all you like but it's the truth.
I agree that a large number of the working population wants nothing more than their next paycheck. I feel sorry for them. They're missing out on opportunity all around them.

You're right. The only stand alone, unbiased news agency available is the Stewart-Colbert Power Hour!! Now if Comedy Central were to just merge the two shows into an hour long program with those two as co-anchors, then it would be even more fun!!!!
I support this idea. It'd be like hannity and colmes, but not shitty.
I agree that a large number of the working population wants nothing more than their next paycheck. I feel sorry for them. They're missing out on opportunity all around them.
good. more for those of us who are willing to do it

I support this idea. It'd be like hannity and colmes, but not shitty.

You're right. But let's not use that word when dealing with Comedy Central related stuff. Remember, we've already had one of the Thirteen Plague Dragons of the Curse Words arise, and that was for saying the word $h!+.

Different perspective is putting it mildly about someone who readily discards facts in favor of theory. I imagine discussing the shortcomings of Zinn would be the makings of another thread, though.

His facts are unchallengeable. Just because he tells stories that didn't make it into the canon doesn't mean he makes shit up. Instead of focusing on the powerful, he focuses on the powerless, and it makes a hell of a difference in the way you see the same events.

Go to the next homeless person on the street you see. Walk up to them, lean over them and say "Just start over. Just cut your losses. Are you afraid of hard work?"

Not to mention that bankruptcy is expensive--a minimum of two grand if you've got a simple Chapter 7. Going broke costs money.

Not the movers and shakers. Thomas Paine was probably the exception, but even Ben Franklin, by the time he was a revolutionary, was a wealthy man. Jefferson was a Virginia planter, as was Washington. John Adams was a Massachusetts lawyer. The list goes on.

Read a little Howard Zinn for some perspective on the American mythos.

Zinn is an asshat who frequently and unabashedly kisses the asses of tin-pot leftist tyrants in the Third World.

His facts are unchallengeable. Just because he tells stories that didn't make it into the canon doesn't mean he makes shit up. Instead of focusing on the powerful, he focuses on the powerless, and it makes a hell of a difference in the way you see the same events.

And his book doesn't have a single footnote in it.

Yes.

A lot of our leaders over the years have been from lower or middle class backgrounds. Presidents from Jackson to Grant to Nixon, for example.

You left out Lincoln because you wanted to make some sort of point, right?

minorities get more rights than the average man when the walls broken down between the minority and the common man were supposed to make the common man and the minority equal
Despite common belief

THE WHITE MAN IS NOT BEING OPRESSED!

His facts are unchallengeable. Just because he tells stories that didn't make it into the canon doesn't mean he makes shit up. Instead of focusing on the powerful, he focuses on the powerless, and it makes a hell of a difference in the way you see the same events.
Okay, I guess it's time for that Howard Zinn thread. I don't have my copy of "A People's History..." handy but when I do find it, I'll look through my notes.

The only thing I recall -- I started reading this after I saw some of my students carping about it -- is that he thinks greed is the reason for literally every action that has ever occurred. I firmly believe that if you would ask Zinn why the Sun rose and set, he would answer that it was because someone profited by it...

I'm starting to see why you think the way you do...what an insight!

Oh, bull. You can sit home feeling sorry for yourself, or you can take risks, get more education, build a better whatever.

It's only those who are afraid to step out of the cubicle farm who are trapped anywhere.

You shouldn't be making generalizations about these kinds of issues, there are people that get off on ruining other peoples lives because it makes them feel powerful, it feeds there craving for power. Beyond that the established businesses are feeling the pinch because of across the board high prices and corporations that think they are above the law, so of course it's going to effect start up businesses even more. And don't get me started about the CEO's that get away with stealing from the company they run by placing yes men on the board of directors, thereby taking the vote of the stockholders. How do I know this? Because I experienced it the hard way.

The US was originally founded on the idea that everyone made their own destinies and that our worth was determined by ourselves.
Sure, if you were a white male heterosexual Christian landowner.

Oh, bull. You can sit home feeling sorry for yourself, or you can take risks, get more education, build a better whatever.

It's only those who are afraid to step out of the cubicle farm who are trapped anywhere.

ding ding ding


Tell her what she's won...

Not to mention that bankruptcy is expensive--a minimum of two grand if you've got a simple Chapter 7. Going broke costs money.

1200$ actually I called on it last week.

Despite common belief

THE WHITE MAN IS NOT BEING OPRESSED!

He is right though. Minorities do tend to get slightly more rights then white people. Examples include affirmative action and being allowed to say the N-word.

He is right though. Minorities do tend to get slightly more rights then white people.

No, they don't.


Examples include affirmative action

Provide specific examples.


and being allowed to say the N-word.
You have the right to say the N-word if you want. There will just be social consequences if you choose to do so.

The fact that black people are "allowed" to say the N-word is not a special "right." It's a reflection of the unequal social order in our society. It's a reflection of the fact that black people are still, repeatedly and consistently, the targets of pervasive racism, while white people (being the ethnic majority) face nothing even remotely comparable.

It's pretty laughable to suggest that an ethnic minority is enjoying some kind of special perk because they "get to" self-apply a racist slur.

It's even funnier when a white person--who will enjoy higher pay, far greater representation in government, higher social status, greater personal security, and less chance of physical harm for their entire lifetime--dares to whine that a black person enjoys "more rights" because they "get to" use the N-word.