NationStates Jolt Archive


Public Welfare and Health

Andaras Prime
07-06-2007, 06:59
Life in Finland, one of the world's best functioning welfare states and least known success stories, can be complicated. Consider the dilemma confronting parents looking for day care for a 4-year-old daughter in Kuhmo, a town of 10,000 near the middle of the country.

Should they put their child into the town nursery school, where she could spend her weekdays from 6:30 a.m. until 5 p.m. with about 40 other children, cared for by a 47-year-old principal with 20 years' experience, Mirsa Pussinen, as well as four teachers with master's degrees in preschool education, two teacher's aides and one cook? The girl would hear books read aloud every day, play games with numbers and the alphabet, learn some English, dig in the indoor sandbox or run around outside, sing and perform music, dress up for theatrical games, paint pictures, eat a hot lunch, take a nap if she wanted one, learn to play and work with others.

Or should that 4-year-old spend her days in home care? Most parents in Kuhmo choose this option, and put their children into the care of women such as Anneli Vaisanen, who has three or four kids in her home for the day. The 49-year-old Vaisanen doesn't have a master's, but she has received extensive training, has provided day care for two decades and has two grown children of her own. The kids in her charge do most of the things those at the center do, but with less order and organization. They also bake bread and make cakes.

How to decide? There's no financial difference; both forms of day care cost the parents nothing. There's no difference in the schooling that will follow day care -- all the kids in Kuhmo (and throughout Finland) will have essentially identical opportunities in Finnish schools, Europe's best. There is no "elite" choice, no working-class choice; everyone is treated equally.

It's a dilemma that American parents don't have a chance to confront. And it's a vivid example of the difference between what the Finns call a social democracyand our society. Finland is a leading example of the northern European view that a successful, competitive society should provide basic social services to all its citizens at affordable prices or at no cost at all. This isn't controversial in Finland; it is taken for granted. For a patriotic American like me, the Finns present a difficult challenge: If we Americans are so rich and so smart, why can't we treat our citizens as well as the Finns do?

Finns have one of the world's most generous systems of state-funded educational, medical and welfare services, from pregnancy to the end of life. They pay nothing for education at any level, including medical school or law school. Their medical care, which contributes to an infant mortality rate that is half of ours and a life expectancy greater than ours, costs relatively little. (Finns devote 7 percent of gross domestic product to health care; we spend 15 percent.) Finnish senior citizens are well cared for. Unemployment benefits are good and last, in one form or another, indefinitely.

On the other hand, Finns live in smaller homes than Americans and consume a lot less. They spend relatively little on national defense, though they still have universal male conscription, and it is popular. Their per capita national income is about 30 percent lower than ours. Private consumption of goods and services represents about 52 percent of Finland's economy, and 71 percent of the United States'. Finns pay considerably higher taxes -- nearly half their national income is taken in taxes, while Americans pay about 30 percent on average to federal, state and local governments.

Should we be learning from Finland?

The question occurred to me repeatedly as I traveled around Finland this summer. Americans could easily get used to the sense of well-being that Finns get from their welfare state, which has effectively removed many of the tangible sources of anxiety that beset our society.

But the United States could not simply turn itself into another Finland. Too much of Finnish reality depends on uniquely Finnish circumstances. Finland is as big as two Missouris, but with just 5.2 million residents -- fewer than metropolitan Washington. It is ethnically and religiously homogeneous. A strong Lutheran work ethic, combined with a powerful sense of probity, dominates the society. Homogeneity has led to consensus: Every significant Finnish political party supports the welfare state and, broadly speaking, the high taxation that makes it possible. And Finns have extraordinary confidence in their political class and public officials. Corruption is extremely rare.

For all of that, Finland doesn't feel like an entirely foreign place -- I thought I was on familiar ground. Finns obviously enjoy things we enjoy, from a good concert (rock, jazz or classical) and a good ice cream cone to a brisk walk on the beach. They are practical-minded experimenters and problem solvers.

One fundamental Finnish value sounds a lot like an American principle -- "to provide equal opportunities in life for everyone," as Pekka Himanen, a 31-year-old intellectual wunderkind in Helsinki, put it. Himanen, a product of Finnish schools who got his PhD in philosophy at 21, argues that Finland now does this much better than the United States, where he lived for several years while associated with the University of California in Berkeley.

In Finland, Himanen said, opportunity does not depend on "an accident of birth." All Finns have an equal shot at life, liberty and happiness. Yes, this is supposed to be an American thing, but many well-traveled younger Finns, who all seem to speak English, have a Finnish take on American realities. Miapetra Kumpula, a 32-year-old member of Parliament, volunteered this on the American dream: "Sure, anyone can get rich -- but most won't."

Finns are enormously proud of their egalitarian tradition. They are the only country in Europe that has never had a king or a home-grown aristocracy. Finland has no private schools or universities, no snooty clubs, no gated communities or compounds where the rich can cut themselves off from everyday life. I repeatedly saw signs of a class structure based on economics and educational attainment, but was also impressed by the life stories of Finns I met in prominent positions, or who had made a lot of money.

One of the richest Finns is 39-year-old Risto Siilasmaa, founder and CEO of F-Secure, an Internet security firm that competes successfully with American giants Symantec and McAfee. Siilasmaa, a teenage nerd turned self-made tycoon, is worth several hundred million dollars. His wife, Kaisu, the mother of their three children, has a decidedly un-tycoonish career: She teaches first and second grade in an ordinary school. Like every Finn I spoke to about money, Siilasmaa would not acknowledge any interest in personal wealth. "I'm a competitive person, I like to win," he said, "but I've had enough money since I was 15."

This too seems to be part of Finnish egalitarianism; most Finns don't boast or conspicuously consume (except perhaps when they buy fancy cars). Finnish authorities know how much everyone earns, and they pro-rate traffic fines depending on the wealth of the malefactor. Last year the 27-year-old heir to a local sausage fortune was fined 170,000 euros, about $204,000 at the time of the fine, for driving at 50 miles per hour in a 25 mph zone in downtown Helsinki.

The Finnish educational system is the key to the country's successes and that, too, is a manifestation of egalitarianism. Surprisingly, it is a new system, created over the last generation by a collective act of will. The individual most responsible for it was Erkki Aho, director general of the National Board of Education from 1972 to 1992. Aho, now 68, was "a little bit of a radical," he told me with a smile -- a Finnish Social Democrat who believed in trying to make his country more fair. The early '70s were a radical time in Finland. Change was in the air.

For reformers, education was the principal arena. The traditional Finnish system was conservative and divisive: Kids were selected for an academic track at the end of fourth grade. Those not chosen had no chance at higher education. Universities were relatively few, and mostly mediocre.

Aho and his colleagues thought schooling should be "comprehensive," keeping all kids together in the same schools for nine years without tracking them by ability. Only for "upper secondary," or high school, would academic students be separated from those with vocational interests. The schools would be administered by municipal governments, but at the outset, the substance of the reform would be controlled by the National Board of Education and the government in Helsinki.

The key to reform, Aho and others believed, was teacher training. Teaching had always been a high-status profession in Finland, but now it would become even more prestigious. (Today there are 10 applicants for every place in the universities that train teachers.) Teachers would be required to complete master's degrees, six years of preparation that combined education courses with substantive work in subject areas. "Of course I faced much criticism," Aho recalled. "Upper secondary school teachers were very skeptical. Many parents were critical. The cultural elite said this would mean catastrophe for Finnish schools. The right thought the comprehensive schools smacked of socialism."

But by the end of the 1980s, the new system was broadly popular. It was strengthened by a reform of higher education that gave Finland numerous new, high-quality universities. A grave economic recession in the early '90s was a key test, Aho said. "It was wonderful to see how strong the consensus was" that even in dire economic straits, Finland had to save this new school system, which had become "so important to the society," he said.

Indeed it had. Finland in the '90s became a high-tech powerhouse, led by Nokia, now the world's largest maker of cell phones. Finnish students have become the best in the world, as measured by an internationally administered exam that assesses the educational progress of 15-year-olds in all the industrial countries.

Aho's time in charge ended in the early '90s, when Finns turned against excessive centralization. After he left the Board of Education in 1992, power over the schools reverted to localities and the schools themselves.

Teachers and headmasters were given the authority to write curricula, choose textbooks and allocate resources. Apart from the Program for International Student Assessment (PISA) tests and final exams at the end of high school, Finnish kids take no standardized tests, a stark contrast to the current test obsession in this country.

I found Finnish society beguiling on many levels, but in the end concluded that it could not serve as a blueprint for the United States. National differences matter. The Finns are special and so are we. Ours is a society driven by money, blessed by huge private philanthropy, cursed by endemic corruption and saddled with deep mistrust of government and other public institutions. Finns have none of those attributes.

Nor do they tune in to American individualism. Groupthink seems to be fine with most Finns; conformity is the norm, risk-taking is avoided -- a problem now, when entrepreneurs are so needed. I was bothered by a sense of entitlement among many Finns, especially younger people.

Sirpa Jalkanen, a distinguished microbiologist and biotech entrepreneur affiliated with Turku University in that ancient Finnish port city, told me she was discouraged by "this new generation we have now who love entertainment, the easy life." She said she wished the government would require every university student to pay a "significant but affordable" part of the cost of their education, "just so they'd appreciate it." Today every Finnish student is assured free tuition and a monthly stipend to live on that they can receive for 55 months, the length of the six-year courses most still take.

But if Finland can't be a blueprint for us, it can be an inspiration. Education struck me as the area where Americans could most profit by learning from Finland. Nothing achieved by Aho's reforms would be beyond the reach of American schools if we really wanted them to become good.

And I think we could learn from Finns' confidence that they can shape their own fate. Finns speak of the Finnish National Project, an effort involving much of the country, and nearly all of its elites, to make the country more educated, more agile and adaptive, more green, more fair and more competitive in a fast-changing global economy. Manuel Castells, the renowned Spanish sociologist who teaches at the University of Southern California and has been writing about Finland for nearly a decade, argues that Finland's ability to remake itself followed from its success in creating a welfare state that made Finns feel secure. "If you provide security and it is felt, then you can make reforms," he said in an interview. Of course you have to agree on what reforms are needed.

The complicated Finnish language includes the word talkoot, which means, roughly, "doing work together." It's a powerful Finnish tradition, and reflects a national sense that "we're all in the same boat," as numerous Finns said to me. This idea has always appealed to Americans, but in this country it has nearly always been an abstraction. Finns seem to make it real.

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/05/AR2005080502015_pf.html

This article got me thinking, I been a member of the Young Labor movement (a youth political offshoot of the Australian Labor Party) since I was 18, and although I have become disinterested, I think alot of us social democrats could take a lesson from Finland and even some of it's neighbors regarding social welfare. Do you think in a mainstream society that instead of a 'survival of the richest' and 'managerial' society we could have strong state support? In the aftermath of failed Thatcherism can we agree that extreme fiscal conservatism is more dangerous than not, and that the role and responsibilities of the state are more relevant than ever.

Discussion to follow.
Neu Leonstein
07-06-2007, 07:13
Do you think in a mainstream society that instead of a 'survival of the richest' and 'managerial' society we could have strong state support?
Can't one have both (eg Denmark)?

The thing is that the state is really quite bad at running things itself. So even if you want state involvement in the economy, it's best handled by putting projects up for tender and letting private companies to these things.

And if the electorate is happy to pay for it, then by all means go ahead.

But yeah, if you want a welfare state with all sorts of freebies, you need three things:
1) Abandon all the 1950s ideas of how a welfare state should work and instead look at 21st century public-private partnerships and efficiency as a yardstick.
2) Expect increased tax burdens.
3) Make sure your government is actually any good and spends the tax money on the things you want (rather than some war overseas), and is always ready to constantly evaluate its programs and drop them if they're crap.

It's not easy, but it can be done. Not my cup of tea though, I don't like the second point and I think the third one is very hard to keep going.
Dosuun
07-06-2007, 07:26
TL;DR I'll hit it Tom Morrow. Capitalism is not ebil, it brought us just about every modern technology you can name. Socialism brought you shoddy ripoffs. Capitalism gives Americans the best quality of life in the god damned world. Socialism, at its best simply can't compare and at its worst showers people with oppression and genocide.

Are there sortcomings to fiscal conservatism? Yes. But just like Wal Mart hatred, socialism is mostly unfounded. The proletarians of Russia thought that -ism miracle government would solve all their problems. So they kicked out the oppressive Czar. But things didn't get much better, they still lived in poverty and squalor, except now they had a weekly ration (unless they were among the millions of Ukranians that starved to death because of equal confiscation and poor re-distribution) of this and that and eventually got electricity and running water. But the more things changed the more they stayed the same as the new guys set up death camps and enforced the same cruelty as those that were outed.

For every silver lining there is a dark cloud. Even here there is one that you and your ilk conveniently fail to mention. It's only a matter of time before someone writes a book about their struggle to survive a single day in a prison for political dissenters.

When I see socialim
I see the bad moon arising.
I see trouble on the way.
I see earthquakes and lightning.
I see bad times today.

Because that's what the founders of America said. Just look at ol' Tommy's quote about big governments that can provide can also deprive.
Andaras Prime
07-06-2007, 07:31
http://epp.eurostat.cec.eu.int/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-NK-05-013/EN/KS-NK-05-013-EN.PDF
http://www.euractiv.com/en/socialeurope/eu-debates-european-social-model/article-146338

I think these links is good too, and please guys I am not trying to start another bloody communist/capitalism debates, we are debating social welfare, also I do agree that a universal health and employment etc system would be need cooperation by both private and public actors for solidarity in market reform. It seems the EU is looking toward a uniform social policy that will incorporate the Nordic and Anglo welfare systems to achieve social goals. If you read the links you'll notice the main pushers of this new welfare system are not governments, they are business, private actors and NGOs etc. I think this shows that Europe to a degree has managed to make social policy above ideology.
NERVUN
07-06-2007, 07:33
When I see socialim
I see the bad moon arising.
I see trouble on the way.
I see earthquakes and lightning.
I see bad times today.

Because that's what the founders of America said. Just look at ol' Tommy's quote about big governments that can provide can also deprive.
I have to ask, did you even BOTHER reading the article posted or did you just see the word Socialism and started ranting?

*Jesh*
Dosuun
07-06-2007, 07:49
Do you know what TL;DR means?

Yes I know this is about the Finny folk of northern Europe. It may look great now but all I'm telling you to do is scratch. Look at the average personal income of Finland and compare it to the avergae personal income for the US. The US is higher. Even in NS socialist nations have lower GDP per capita than those that are more economically conservative (or liberal, in economics they both mean right) because the government takes the money from the people in socialist nations before they get it.

The quoted text from the OP says that Finns pay nothing for education. They do. Through heavy taxation. The problem with a socialist society with cradle to grave support is that you don't actually have to work. You don't have to contribute, you can loaf around and be supported by those around you too virtuous and self-rightous to give up their day jobs. There is always a cost for everything. There is no such thing as a free lunch. I swear to yopur favored deity there ought to be more required reading in schools and at the top of the list ought to be books like "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".

You need to understand that there is a cost for everything, when someone says that a government service is free they mean that it has already been paid for because the government took money out of your paycheck before you took it to the bank. And then they take money from it again with sales taxes and again with property taxes, and again and again and again with a thousand other taxes. When you go to work you're not working those first few hours for yourself, you're working for the government, a slave to the system.
NERVUN
07-06-2007, 08:02
Do you know what TL;DR means?
I do now, so I should change my question into a statement that makes you look even MORE foolish.

Yes I know this is about the Finny folk of northern Europe. It may look great now but all I'm telling you to do is scratch. Look at the average personal income of Finland and compare it to the avergae personal income for the US. The US is higher. Even in NS socialist nations have lower GDP per capita than those that are more economically conservative (or liberal, in economics they both mean right) because the government takes the money from the people in socialist nations before they get it.
You pay less now or pay more later. Yeah, I get it, still have nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

The quoted text from the OP says that Finns pay nothing for education. They do. Through heavy taxation. The problem with a socialist society with cradle to grave support is that you don't actually have to work. You don't have to contribute, you can loaf around and be supported by those around you too virtuous and self-rightous to give up their day jobs. There is always a cost for everything. There is no such thing as a free lunch. I swear to yopur favored deity there ought to be more required reading in schools and at the top of the list ought to be books like "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".
Still has nothing to do with the OP.

You need to understand that there is a cost for everything, when someone says that a government service is free they mean that it has already been paid for because the government took money out of your paycheck before you took it to the bank. And then they take money from it again with sales taxes and again with property taxes, and again and again and again with a thousand other taxes. When you go to work you're not working those first few hours for yourself, you're working for the government, a slave to the system.
And here I thought when I was working I was working for the company that hired me. Well how about that. :rolleyes:

And yet still does not address ANYTHING written in the article. If you're gonna come in and write a semi-long responce, you could at least be bothered to skim the OP and, you know, actually respond to what is written.
Andaras Prime
07-06-2007, 08:03
Dosuun, I sure wouldn't mind being a Finnish citizen, not so I just wouldn't work but because I prefer employment security and determination, to know that I am being looked after by the state, I would give anything for that kind of security.

And I spose the big refutation is here, if this welfare system is so prone to collapse and economic ruin, why are the main proponents of it business and private organizations and individuals? And why is it still here 72 years on?

And yes right-wingers, Thatcherism did fail, it failed miserably, go and ask any common Brit who lived it.
SocialistRevolutions
07-06-2007, 08:17
The state should nationalize and monopolize welfare and healthcare and provide it free for all workers. To pay for it, all the wealthy will be executed, and their money will pay for it.
Neu Leonstein
07-06-2007, 08:19
And yes right-wingers, Thatcherism did fail, it failed miserably, go and ask any common Brit who lived it.
You didn't want a capitalism v communism debate, remember? So quit provoking.

Thatcher was bad for some and good for others and that's all I'm gonna say, lest we end up hijacking a quite valid thread topic afterall.
Glorious Alpha Complex
07-06-2007, 08:24
TL;DR I'll hit it Tom Morrow. Capitalism is not ebil, it brought us just about every modern technology you can name. Socialism brought you shoddy ripoffs. Capitalism gives Americans the best quality of life in the god damned world. Socialism, at its best simply can't compare and at its worst showers people with oppression and genocide.

Are there sortcomings to fiscal conservatism? Yes. But just like Wal Mart hatred, socialism is mostly unfounded. The proletarians of Russia thought that -ism miracle government would solve all their problems. So they kicked out the oppressive Czar. But things didn't get much better, they still lived in poverty and squalor, except now they had a weekly ration (unless they were among the millions of Ukranians that starved to death because of equal confiscation and poor re-distribution) of this and that and eventually got electricity and running water. But the more things changed the more they stayed the same as the new guys set up death camps and enforced the same cruelty as those that were outed.

For every silver lining there is a dark cloud. Even here there is one that you and your ilk conveniently fail to mention. It's only a matter of time before someone writes a book about their struggle to survive a single day in a prison for political dissenters.

When I see socialim
I see the bad moon arising.
I see trouble on the way.
I see earthquakes and lightning.
I see bad times today.

Because that's what the founders of America said. Just look at ol' Tommy's quote about big governments that can provide can also deprive.

Please show how any of this applies to what's happening in Finland.
Dosuun
07-06-2007, 08:30
I do now, so I should change my question into a statement that makes you look even MORE foolish.
It's called sarcasm. When something really long is posted I'll throw in a TL;DR as a knee-jerkin response.

You pay less now or pay more later. Yeah, I get it, still have nothing to do with the topic of the thread.
No, you can eithe pay now or pay later. That's it. Well that and you have a choice. And you are either self-sufficient or die.

Still has nothing to do with the OP.
Actually it has everything to do with the OP. Specifically the quoted text in the OP. It says and I quote
They pay nothing for education at any level.
When in fact they do. Through taxes. There is always a price. The price of higher wages is higher costs passed on to the consumers.

And here I thought when I was working I was working for the company that hired me. Well how about that. :rolleyes:
Where does the money go? First to the government then to you. You lose a portion of your wage, usually the first hour or so to the government. Like if you volunteered, except for the government and not charity. As though you weren't being paid at all for that first hour of work. As though you were a slave to the government for that first hour. Got it?

And yet still does not address ANYTHING written in the article. If you're gonna come in and write a semi-long responce, you could at least be bothered to skim the OP and, you know, actually respond to what is written.
It's all about the article and what it claims, that Finns don't pay for the social services they recieve. That's what the article says, that they don't pay for child care or education or the other support they get from the government. They do, through taxation. There is always a cost no matter how you try to conceal it or displace it. There is always a catch, a dark cloud to every silver lining. That's my first beef with the quoted text of the OP. It asserts that total coverage social service is free when it isn't.

My second is that with set coverage you don't actually have to work and contribute to the system. If such a system were to come here I'd publicly leech off of it just to demonstrate how fucked up bullshit like socialism is while I privately go around at night in my brown trenchcoat with my homemade flamer and machine pistols wreaking havoc.
Andaras Prime
07-06-2007, 08:46
Dosuun again you have ignored my post, if the Finnish (and to a degree Scandinavian) welfare systems are so prone to collapse then how have they lasted over 70 years without collapse or alteration of any significant degree? And why do EU business and NGO groups all support a social welfare uniformity based on the Nordic model?
Andaras Prime
07-06-2007, 08:50
Also Dosuun a large reason why the Finland system has worked has as much to do with cultural unity as to do with economic factors, I think any society of that like with someone like you in it would fail because your selfish and destructive.
Glorious Alpha Complex
07-06-2007, 08:53
Where does the money go? First to the government then to you. You lose a portion of your wage, usually the first hour or so to the government. Like if you volunteered, except for the government and not charity. As though you weren't being paid at all for that first hour of work. As though you were a slave to the government for that first hour. Got it?


Or at least that's what it would be like if you wern't getting that money back in the form of social services and an overall better country to live in.
Dosuun
07-06-2007, 09:26
Or at least that's what it would be like if you wern't getting that money back in the form of social services and an overall better country to live in.
Well sort of. In the United States of America, on average only 25 cents of every dollar the government collects actually goes to the people who qualify for the services prvodied by the government. The rest is eaten up by government employees. Someone has to collect it, someone has to hand it back, someone has to pass the laws that demand it and pass still others that raise their salary, someone has to keep track of it, and so on and so on and so on. 3/4 of the money that you give to the US government only pays for the cost of actually running the US government.

And in repsonse to Andaras, your popst didn't have to do with the length of time that Finnland has gone without economic collapse. From your own OP:
Do you think in a mainstream society that instead of a 'survival of the richest' and 'managerial' society we could have strong state support?
Actually it's survival of the fittest or natural selection, the process that drives evolution and ensures the progression of a species. What you advocate amounts to socio-economic creationism. You, Andaras Prime, are a creationist. No better that a fundamentalist christian who tries to force school boards to teach Genesis in science classes.

The reason that socialism has worked in Finnland is because it's a small nation, small society, and everyone there is white. Very white. Beyond pale white. So yes, socialism can work, so long as everyone is the same color, the same religion, and believes the same thing. Introduce the slightest bit of diversity, be it political, racial, religious, or whatever and the whole thing comes crashing down.

I wouldn't prop up the EU as the end all of social enlightenment if I were you, most Europeans are fucking racists. Srsly, they hate immigrants, people of different race and national origin. Except for France. Or did you miss the recent thread that highlighted the study that exposed this shocking secret of Europe. The reason that EU business supports a super-state is because they'd get checks. Corporate welfare is still covered in European welfare states. And I hate it too. See I don't just hate personal government aid, I hate it all. Anything too weak to stand on its own, be it a man or a company, ought to have the government crutches kicked out from under it be left for the wolves. Really, we only pick off the weak, stupid, sick, or dying.

You call me destructive. In a society where everyone is forced to be average I'd rise above and take control. And after I restore a system based on sicence, based on evolution, I'd step back and leave people to do as they please with their lives. But not everyone who'd publicly leech and quitely start one brush fire after another would be so beneficent. Someone would take the same actions but never give up the power they'd take like I would when I'm done.

I'd die before I'd submit to anyone who'd try to exchange my liberty for security without my permission. And there are a hell of a lot of people like me who would take advantage of people like you for no other reason than to show you how wrong you are. Pray they be as merciful as I.

Capitulation is not strength. Surrender does not bring victory. Evolution got us this far, why abandon it now?
Glorious Alpha Complex
07-06-2007, 09:37
Well sort of. In the United States of America, on average only 25 cents of every dollar the government collects actually goes to the people who qualify for the services prvodied by the government. The rest is eaten up by government employees. Someone has to collect it, someone has to hand it back, someone has to pass the laws that demand it and pass still others that raise their salary, someone has to keep track of it, and so on and so on and so on. 3/4 of the money that you give to the US government only pays for the cost of actually running the US government.
That seems highly fishy, as I've often heard that 1/3 to 2/3 is used to fund our military alone. Furthermore, you'd have a hard time separating employees from the cost of service, unless you are positing that 3/4 of government employees are paid to do absolutely nothing. (I might believe half, maybe)
And in repsonse to Andaras, your popst didn't have to do with the length of time that Finnland has gone without economic collapse. From your own OP:

Actually it's survival of the fittest or natural selection, the process that drives evolution and ensures the progression of a species. What you advocate amounts to socio-economic creationism. You, Andaras Prime, are a creationist. No better that a fundamentalist christian who tries to force school boards to teach Genesis in science classes.
This is bullshit. The denial of history has nothing to do with some idealization of the idea of survival of the fittest and evolution. Social Darwinism is not something many people agree with or support.
The reason that socialism has worked in Finnland is because it's a small nation, small society, and everyone there is white. Very white. Beyond pale white. So yes, socialism can work, so long as everyone is the same color, the same religion, and believes the same thing. Introduce the slightest bit of diversity, be it political, racial, religious, or whatever and the whole thing comes crashing down.
So there are no finnish immigrants of different skin colors?
I wouldn't prop up the EU as the end all of social enlightenment if I were you, most Europeans are fucking racists. Srsly, they hate immigrants, people of different race and national origin. Except for France. Or did you miss the recent thread that highlighted the study that exposed this shocking secret of Europe. The reason that EU business supports a super-state is because they'd get checks. Corporate welfare is still covered in European welfare states. And I hate it too. See I don't just hate personal government aid, I hate it all. Anything too weak to stand on its own, be it a man or a company, ought to have the government crutches kicked out from under it be left for the wolves. Really, we only pick off the weak, stupid, sick, or dying.
I agree with you as far as corporations are concerned, for the most part. Bailouts have hurt the US rather severely.
You call me destructive. In a society where everyone is forced to be average I'd rise above and take control. And after I restore a system based on sicence, based on evolution, I'd step back and leave people to do as they please with their lives. But not everyone who'd publicly leech and quitely start one brush fire after another would be so beneficent. Someone would take the same actions but never give up the power they'd take like I would when I'm done.
They are not forced to be equal or average. Everyone gets the same opportunities. There are multi millionaire finnish. And this social darwinism bull you're advocating is not based on science. If you want true social darwinism, then reduce the country to pure anarchy.
I'd die before I'd submit to anyone who'd try to exchange my liberty for security without my permission. And there are a hell of a lot of people like me who would take advantage of people like you for no other reason than to show you how wrong you are. Pray they be as merciful as I.

Capitulation is not strength. Surrender does not bring victory. Evolution got us this far, why abandon it now?

You have some strange idea that you personally are powerful enough to take control of a country of people who disagree with you. I find this highly unlikely.
Dosuun
07-06-2007, 09:56
You have some strange idea that you personally are powerful enough to take control of a country of people who disagree with you. I find this highly unlikely.
I don't have to take over the whole country to just wreck the whole thing, only a sizeable part of it. And that I can assure you I am capable of. Most people could be if they only spent some time learning how.

Oh, and I am an anarchist.
Entropic Creation
07-06-2007, 11:04
The comment about only 25 cents of each tax dollar actually being used to do work actually sounds right, though a little deceptive. The exact number varies between departments, but the rule of thumb is 30% is taken in overhead. Taken at each step in the process - tax collection, the department overseeing projects and money allocation, and then that of the actual work being performed (2/3 of 2/3 of 2/3) leaves it at a little under 30 cents on the dollar (of course that is just a back of the envelope idea using a rule of thumb number). I don't know just how well that actually applies to reality, but in that context it makes the 25 cent figure not unreasonable.

Compliance costs alone pulls hundreds of billions of dollars out of the economy, then add to this the dead weight loss... taxation pulls far more out of the economy than simply the bottom line budget of the government. Most estimations I've seen put the premium from compliance costs to be about 65% (i.e. add 65% to the budget and that is what it actually takes out of the economy).

Put the two together, and you have a rather bleak picture of taxation - if you were to include these costs in estimations of projects, people would be justifiably outraged at the cost of government. Obviously government workers and politicians have a vested interest in making sure the actual cost never comes out, which is why the federal government uses a completely different accounting method than all state and local governments and all businesses are required to follow.
Pure Metal
07-06-2007, 11:11
Where does the money go? First to the government then to you. You lose a portion of your wage, usually the first hour or so to the government. Like if you volunteered, except for the government and not charity. As though you weren't being paid at all for that first hour of work. As though you were a slave to the government for that first hour. Got it?

i happily give up a portion of my working day to the government, as you put it, because i get services in return. services that i may not use right now, but are important for society as a whole and that are guaranteed to be there when i do need them.

you may hate it, but others - like me, and obviously many in Finland/Sweden/France/Britain/etc - see it, while socialised systems may have problems, as preferable to the alternative.


this thread did start off interesting, but degenerated into socialism-bashing along the most common and tired themes. *yawns*
Andaras Prime
08-06-2007, 00:33
i happily give up a portion of my working day to the government, as you put it, because i get services in return. services that i may not use right now, but are important for society as a whole and that are guaranteed to be there when i do need them.

you may hate it, but others - like me, and obviously many in Finland/Sweden/France/Britain/etc - see it, while socialised systems may have problems, as preferable to the alternative.


this thread did start off interesting, but degenerated into socialism-bashing along the most common and tired themes. *yawns*
I think that's the point, I think if you actually did a referenda about it, that a majority would actually prefer to make a welfare state than not.
Dosuun
08-06-2007, 07:42
I think that's the point, I think if you actually did a referenda about it, that a majority would actually prefer to make a welfare state than not.
Maybe...Maybe. In places like most of western Europe and the planet of Australia. Most Americans don't like high taxes any more than they like high gas prices.

The thing is that it only works so long as everyone is willing to contribute, so long as everyone agrees with it and wants to work at the job the government gives them. As soon as people realize they could be getting that living wage (enough for a nice house, good food, cable TV, etc.) without working they will. I know that Americans would. Finland is a small country with a small society compared to the US. And there is no diversity in Finland. There is no challenging view represented by any major political body in Finland.

I don't think this thread started off very well, the OP began with a quoted op ed that asserted that Finnland was better than the US because it's a welfare state that hasn't collapsed yet (everything dies eventually, it's just a matter of time) and ended by asserting that fiscal conservatism is bad for economies and societies. Andaras Prime stated that capitalism is unstable and therefore ought to be abadoned. The problem with this argumet is the same that's wrong with trying to take away guns, cars, planes, trains, and plantains. AP advocates the rejection of that which carries inherent risk and favors stability and central planning. What is not mentioned is that all things in life are risky. Just by living you run the risk of dying at any moment for any number of reasons and if nothing else does you in you'll eventually buy the farm from old age. You can only make the shots you take, the more skilled you are the better your chances of making the shots and the team.

There is a reason that predators, not prey, are at the top of every food chain. The predator is aggressive, intelligent, and ruthless when need be. In a capitalist system the predator and prey are both let loose as they are and the struggle for survival gets underway. In a socialist system the predator is deprevied of his teeth and claws before being released, making it incapable of harming the prey which gets defended by the magic banhammer of government. As a result, the predator starves to death and the prey, with no natural predators, overpopulate and deplete resources until they too die.

People don't have a right to equal wages, a CEO has to run a whole company, a chasier just has to man his station. People have the same rights under the law in the US; expression, defense, fair trial, voting, etc. Nowhere in the constitution does the right of a cashier to have the same salary as his CEO come up. Nowhere does it say that the rich and powerful should be hurt more when they commit crimes simply because they have more wealth and power. In America, all men have the same rights and must be treated equally under the law. I'm not saying that capitalism is fair, but neither is life. If socialism didn't demand that I be a part of the system; that I be hurt more or less simply because of what I have and not what I did to deserve punuishment; that I give up all that I have, all I work for to society so that the government can provide for me, then I wouldn't be against it. If it allowed me to continue being a capitalist, giving me the option to not take from the government and not have to give to it, then I wouldn't hate it so much.

Under capitalism one must work to survive. Under socialism there are no demands on he who does not wish to work, one can simply go to the government and panhandle for the money earned by others too proud to quit. The successful are punished for their success as though they committed some crime by working harder and having more than others.

And as for that whole referedum: the problem with that is that even if it were true (which I doubt for America, maybe for Aussies but not here), it'd involve forcing unbelievers to either fall in or be punished. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. That's what Benjamin Franklin believed. He helped found this nation. I think he'd be sorely disapointed to see it turned into a tyranny by majority.