NationStates Jolt Archive

By the way, pause a moment to remember those that joined in battle to reclaim liberty for the continent of Europe on this day in 1944.

remembrance day is the 11th of November...

and what about the Axis troops that lost there lives?

By the way, pause a moment to remember those that joined in battle to reclaim liberty for the continent of Europe on this day in 1944.

Meh.

remembrance day is the 11th of November...

and what about the Axis troops that lost there lives?
They were the bad guys, remember? They weren't human. They were all a bunch of Nazis...nevermind the fact that quite a few were actually Jews...:rolleyes:

Yes indeed let us remeber.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Normandy7.jpg

Reclaming liberty? Yeah right. You seemed to be fine with the soviet union from raping the countries of Eastern europe.

remembrance day is the 11th of November...

and what about the Axis troops that lost there lives?

Well, then stop and remember the fallen Axis troops whenever you want. I didn't say anything about remembering dead soldiers, only those that were part of the D-Day invasion.

It's my post, I can remember whoever I want.

Reclaming liberty? Yeah right. You seemed to be fine with the soviet union from raping the countries of Eastern europe.

Since there were so many Soviet soldiers on the shores of Normandy on June 6th, '44, which was the point of this thread.

Try again.

Reclaming liberty? Yeah right. You seemed to be fine with the soviet union from raping the countries of Eastern europe.

pfft like we went to war for eastern Europe :rolleyes::p

I didn't say anything about remembering dead soldiers, only those that were part of the D-Day invasion.

so you want us to remember the soldiers still alive from the invasion and forget every other battle fought...interesting

It's my post, I can remember whoever I want.

I doubt you will though if you where alive and >14 in 1944 :p

Since there were so many Soviet soldiers on the shores of Normandy on June 6th, '44, which was the point of this thread.

Try again.

the point i was trying to make was that america never really helpled europe "reclaim liberty" as was claimed in the OP.

the point i was trying to make was that america never really helpled europe "reclaim liberty" as was claimed in the OP.

*points at France, Italy, and Germany's lack of fascist dictatorship*

Oh...

And he never said anything about America. The allied landings on D-Day were a co-op effort.

*points at France, Italy, and Germany's lack of fascist dictatorship*

Oh...

And he never said anything about America. The allied landings on D-Day were a co-op effort.

does Europe consist of just France Italy and Germany?

*points at France, Italy, and Germany's lack of fascist dictatorship*

erm...I think your exaggerating the liberating Germany part just a tad

No. Does it only consist of Eastern Europe and the Balkans?

Try as you like, you can't take away from the fact that the d-day landings were a good thing. Soviet atrocities don't change the fact that something they never had a hand in, the D-day landings, took a good chunk of Europe from beneath Hitler's boot.

Once again, what does Soviet atrocities have to do with the good that was done on June 6th of '44?

Once again, what does Soviet atrocities have to do with the good that was done on June 6th of '44?

killing is good now?

When the ones being killed are Nazi soldiers who had subdued Europe under a lunatic's dictatorship? Yes. That is a good thing. Very much so.

Try as you like, you can't take away from the fact that the d-day landings were a good thing. Soviet atrocities don't change the fact that something they never had a hand in, the D-day landings, took a good chunk of Europe from beneath Hitler's boot.

Once again, what does Soviet atrocities have to do with the good that was done on June 6th of '44?
Wow, so little time and you're already starting to miss the point. I'm not saying anything about D-Day being good or bad. I;m simply pointing out to the OP that it did not really "restore liberty to Europe" as much as the OP thought it did. I do not see how this implies D-Day being good or bad.

the point i was trying to make was that america never really helpled europe "reclaim liberty" as was claimed in the OP.

The Soviets weren't exactly pushovers. We weren't going to risk open war with them for control of Eastern Europe, but you probably recall the Berlin Airlift, and 50 years of Cold War that was markedly anti-Soviet.

When the ones being killed are Nazi soldiers who had subdued Europe under a lunatic's dictatorship? Yes. That is a good thing. Very much so.

Because as we all know, every soldier in every army in the world agrees without a single bit of hesitation with absolutely EVERYTHING the leader of their country says and does. :rolleyes:

Because as we all know, every soldier in every army in the world agrees without a single bit of hesitation with absolutely EVERYTHING the leader of their country says and does. :rolleyes:

You're right. We should have just waited a few more days. They probably would have realized they were wrong, gone home, and apologized for bothering everyone.

"I didn't really agree with the evil things going on, but I took part in them and defended that way of life anyway" isn't much of an excuse, all things considered.

The Soviets weren't exactly pushovers. We weren't going to risk open war with them for control of Eastern Europe, but you probably recall the Berlin Airlift, and 50 years of Cold War that was markedly anti-Soviet.

The cold war was a pissing contest. It did nothing for the people of eastern europe.

The Berlin Airlift, on the other hand, I have never heard of.

So, yes, I would like to know exactly where you're trying to go with this?

does Europe consist of just France Italy and Germany?

Belgium? The Netherlands? If you're going to try and be pedantic, at least put some effort into it.

When the ones being killed are Nazi soldiers who had subdued Europe under a lunatic's dictatorship? Yes. That is a good thing. Very much so.

yeah those innocent kids who where conscripted how evil :rolleyes:

"I didn't really agree with the evil things going on, but I took part in them and defended that way of life anyway" isn't much of an excuse, all things considered.

how about "I'm just a kid forced to go fight, otherwise me and my family would be killed and branded traitors"

course you seem to think that some battles and as a result killing is good so I don't think its too much of a leap for you

You're right. We should have just waited a few more days. They probably would have realized they were wrong, gone home, and apologized for bothering everyone.
Obviously that wasn't going to happen, but you can't blame the common soldier for that, especially given that they were typically conscripted and fed hoards of propoganda.

"I didn't really agree with the evil things going on, but I took part in them and defended that way of life anyway" isn't much of an excuse, all things considered.
Neither is the "They're the bad guys so they deserve to die" bullshit you're spouting. No one deserves to die, no matter what they've done, least of all the common soldier who, as I said, was conscripted.

Even in a volunteer army a lot of the soldiers joined because they had no other choice--their life was slipping down the drain--or were fed propaganda about the military, which the military enjoys doing in its advertisements.

No one deserves to die, no matter what they've done, least of all the common soldier who, as I said, was conscripted.

Everyone dies, and so an argument can be made that everyone deserves to die. It just goes with the territory of being alive.

Everyone dies, and so an argument can be made that everyone deserves to die. It just goes with the territory of being alive.

...

True. I meant that no one deserves to die by the hand of another human being. As sentient beings we should be beyond such idiocy.

...

Well that and technology may advance to the point where we won't die--either through some form of anti-aging or the archival of our minds in computers or robotic bodies--and thus your point would be moot. But I always like technicalities so pay this no mind as it's irrelevant to the current...events. (And I'm really tired.)

Meh. Normandy was a minor skirmish compared to the Eastern Front, the Axis was a corpse long before the landings at Normandy, the Americans just jumped into a World War at an opportune time, as usual.

remembrance day is the 11th of November...

and what about the Axis troops that lost there lives?

Poor, conscripted, saps.

Who should have known better than to tolerate Hitler.

Meh. Normandy was a minor skirmish compared to the Eastern Front, the Axis was a corpse long before the landings at Normandy, the Americans just jumped into a World War at an opportune time, as usual.

Uh, not so much.

But I guess I wouldn't expect you to be able to see beyond the veil of your anti-US bias, so, whatever.

killing is good now?

Liberating a country from occupation (and mass deportation of jews...) is bad?

Who should have known better than to tolerate Hitler.

it takes allot to stand up and say something, it takes even more when you have a gun to your head and everyone who has ever said anything out of line is dead

then you take into account that the propaganda and fear of what it would be like if the war was lost (Soviets raping there way through Berlin etc)

Liberating a country from occupation (and mass deportation of jews...) is bad?

if you kill an innocent then yes it is, and the allies never fought to save the Jews *gasp!* they fought to oddly save Poland from occupation which failed to happen...

it takes allot to stand up and say something, it takes even more when you have a gun to your head and everyone who has ever said anything out of line is dead



They could have voted for the centrist democratic parties in the twenties, instead of the parties opposed to democracy. They could have stood up to the thugs in the streets in the twenties. They could have stood up in 1933, to defend their Republic. They could have stood up when Hitler consolidated all power in himself. They could have stood up over and over and over again. They didn't, and all Europe paid for their failure.

The cold war was a pissing contest. It did nothing for the people of eastern europe.

The Berlin Airlift, on the other hand, I have never heard of.

So, yes, I would like to know exactly where you're trying to go with this?

Berlin Airlift / Berlin Blockade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Blockade)

They could have voted for the centrist democratic parties in the twenties, instead of the parties opposed to democracy. They could have stood up to the thugs in the streets in the twenties. They could have stood up in 1933, to defend their Republic. They could have stood up when Hitler consolidated all power in himself. They could have stood up over and over and over again. They didn't, and all Europe paid for their failure.

In democracy there is no failure, they just made a decision. Hitler was popular.

Meh. Normandy was a minor skirmish compared to the Eastern Front, the Axis was a corpse long before the landings at Normandy, the Americans just jumped into a World War at an opportune time, as usual.

???

You are aware that they had been at war for two and a half years prior to D-Day, yes?

In democracy there is no failure, they just made a decision. Hitler was popular.

And Hitler was a madman, responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of people. There is such a thing as democratic failure, and this case is the shining beacon of such.

Democracy in and of itself is not a virtue. Even tyrants require popular support. It is decency, justice and liberty that are virtues.

SNIP

yes cripple a nation, make it face enormous shame, allow persecution of its citizens now living in lands under foreign flags but if that happens to cause any backlash its suddenly there fault they are evil for going to a leader in desperate times :rolleyes:

the Weimar republic was stable and doing well in good economic times (hell the extremist parties lost many votes) but as soon as you start to resort to barter, as soon as your country's economic heartland is occupied because you can't pay reparations as it is and as soon as it appears your government is in its death nail you start to look for a strong stable party one that promises to solve your problems like a magic pill and restore your national pride (course the Germans didn't really think Hitler would be a problem even Jews voted for him which goes to show)

They could have voted for the centrist democratic parties in the twenties, instead of the parties opposed to democracy. They could have stood up to the thugs in the streets in the twenties. They could have stood up in 1933, to defend their Republic. They could have stood up when Hitler consolidated all power in himself. They could have stood up over and over and over again. They didn't, and all Europe paid for their failure.

In the middle of the Great Depression people were desperate, Democracy wasn't working for them and Hitler offered an easy answer to a complex global problem. And I believe most of the German people didn't really think Hitler would go as far as he did...as for standing up to Nazi thugs, people didn't want to get beaten or killed...

???

You are aware that they had been at war for two and a half years prior to D-Day, yes?

Yes, and that was 2 and a half years that Stalin had been requesting a landing in France to relieve his own front, they refused mostly because a few more dead reds didn't worry them. Look at the battles at Stalingrad, Moscow, Leningrad, the Kursk etc etc, and tell me who defeated Germany, and whos Red flag flew above the Nazi parliament.

Yes, and that was 2 and a half years that Stalin had been requesting a landing in France to relieve his own front, they refused mostly because a few more dead reds didn't worry them. Look at the battles at Stalingrad, Moscow, Leningrad, the Kursk etc etc, and tell me who defeated Germany, and whos Red flag flew above the Nazi parliament.

the west let them take Berlin

Yes, and that was 2 and a half years that Stalin had been requesting a landing in France to relieve his own front, they refused mostly because a few more dead reds didn't worry them. Look at the battles at Stalingrad, Moscow, Leningrad, the Kursk etc etc, and tell me who defeated Germany, and whos Red flag flew above the Nazi parliament.

Dieppe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieppe_Raid)....

Although that was a predominantly Canadian attack and they didn't try again until Normandy

yes cripple a nation, make it face enormous shame, allow persecution of its citizens now living in lands under foreign flags but if that happens to cause any backlash its suddenly there fault they are evil for going to a leader in desperate times :rolleyes:

the Weimar republic was stable and doing well in good economic times (hell the extremist parties lost many votes) but as soon as you start to resort to barter, as soon as your country's economic heartland is occupied because you can't pay reparations as it is and as soon as it appears your government is in its death nail you start to look for a strong stable party one that promises to solve your problems like a magic pill and restore your national pride (course the Germans didn't really think Hitler would be a problem even Jews voted for him which goes to show)

How, may I ask, does this exculpate the German people? Are France and the UK devoid of sin for their harsh treatement of a defeated Germany? Absolutely not. BUT: The German people of that time period bear the full responsibility for the actions of the Hitler government. These men are not blameless.

How does this lift the blame for the countless millions who died as a result of the policies of their government? Of imprisoning and tormenting their fellow countrymen? Of the millions who died in the organized slaughter of the Concentration Camps? Of making aggressive war on their neighbors? Of destroying their country, their homes and their families?

And Hitler was a madman, responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of people. There is such a thing as democratic failure, and this case is the shining beacon of such.

Democracy in and of itself is not a virtue. Even tyrants require popular support. It is decency, justice and liberty that are virtues.

There is no defending Hitler, but I think your blaming the German people for something you yourself would probably have done be you in their place. There is no denying Versailles was just a way for the Allies to bankrupt Germany and keep her in hyperinflation for years, WWI and the Depression left them wanting a change. And they didn't want pragmatic centrists who cared only for their portfolios, they wanted real ideologists with grand schemes for their country. I myself can definitely sympathize with this, disillusionment with the centre mainstream politics is common because they are too pragmatic. I have to say, should I have been a German person, I would have voted for him, and so would you and I would bet most of NSG. It's easy to look wise in retrospect, not so in the moment.

Yes, and that was 2 and a half years that Stalin had been requesting a landing in France to relieve his own front, they refused mostly because a few more dead reds didn't worry them. Look at the battles at Stalingrad, Moscow, Leningrad, the Kursk etc etc, and tell me who defeated Germany, and whos Red flag flew above the Nazi parliament.

Ah, this old chestnut. :p

I suppose the Italian and Japanese were inconsequential, too. ;) Not to mention the fact that more Germans were captured alive in N. Africa than were killed at Stalingrad, the costliest battle of the Russian front? The Germans may have suffered the most deaths by percentage in Russia, but that's not where they lost the war.

Ah, this old chestnut. :p

I suppose the Italian and Japanese were inconsequential, too. ;) Not to mention the fact that more Germans were captured alive in N. Africa than were killed at Stalingrad, the costliest battle of the Russian front? The Germans may have suffered the most deaths by percentage in Russia, but that's not where they lost the war.

They lost pretty much all their tanks in Russia, most heavy equiptment, and like 75% of their forces. The Italians were inconsequential, they pretty much all surrendered after it looked tough in Africa.

Ah, this old chestnut. :p

I suppose the Italian and Japanese were inconsequential, too. ;) Not to mention the fact that more Germans were captured alive in N. Africa than were killed at Stalingrad, the costliest battle of the Russian front? The Germans may have suffered the most deaths by percentage in Russia, but that's not where they lost the war.

NUH UHHHH.....Thats not what Jude Law sez.....:D

http://thecia.com.au/reviews/e/images/enemy-at-the-gates-poster-1.jpg

:D

NUH UHHHH.....Thats not what Jude Law sez.....:D

http://thecia.com.au/reviews/e/images/enemy-at-the-gates-poster-1.jpg

:D

I feel ashamed to have enjoyed that movie - it deviated from the true story so much. :p

These men are not blameless.

people doing what they think is good at the time is what defines human history (in this case voting a popular European movement that promised to tear up the Versailles treaty)

course its awfully fun to look in hindsight isn't it

How does this lift the blame for the countless millions who died as a result of the policies of their government? Of imprisoning and tormenting their fellow countrymen? Of the millions who died in the organized slaughter of the Concentration Camps? Of making aggressive war on their neighbors? Of destroying their country, their homes and their families?


millions died when the people lived in a police state, yes there where heroes who fought the regime but few are willing to put there loved ones and there lives at risk its human nature

yes brainwashed SS guards represent the perfect example of German society at the time

blame for those killed in concentration camps :confused:

making aggressive wars on nations that occupied German territory or declared war on Germany... course your still forgetting Germany had become a police state at that point

again I will say most people won't risk there loved ones when it comes to it Heroes are rare and the idea that one must be one doesn't belong this side of the 50's

Yes, and that was 2 and a half years that Stalin had been requesting a landing in France to relieve his own front, they refused mostly because a few more dead reds didn't worry them. Look at the battles at Stalingrad, Moscow, Leningrad, the Kursk etc etc, and tell me who defeated Germany, and whos Red flag flew above the Nazi parliament.

Well, for starters:

-US/UK Battle of the Atlantic: Without being able to seize control of the Atlantic, the US could never have provided the UK with the supplies that were needed to keep the UK alive and fed. The American troops required to storm Europe, who outnumbered the UK troops on the continent by over three to one before the end of the war could never have crossed an Atlantic as infested with the Wolf Packs as it was in 1942. Had it not been for the Pacific theater, the US and UK could have had far more naval resources available to confront this challenge, thus pushing up the timeline for an invasion of France. Unfortunately, Stalin, who was all to happy to let a few more Americans and British die, was unwilling to stomp the Japanese resource bases in Manchuria.
-US/UK North African Campaigns: Key to ensuring the ability of the UK to keep the pipeline of supplies through the Suez Canal, the connection to the rest of the Empire, open. Without ensuring this position, the US and UK could not ensure success at Normandy. Not to mention the fact that far more German troops were taken out of the order of battle than at Stalingrad.
-US/UK Invasion of Sicily: Guaranteeing the US/UK ability to hold the Mediterranean supply lines against German and Italian aircraft and naval capability. Maintaining this vital supply pipeline was the primary goal of the US/UK alliance. Required vast amphibious capability, that when, during D-Day, Clark wanted to mount another amphibious assault up the Italian boot, he found his theater totally devoid of amphibious transports.
-US/UK Invasion of Italy: See above.
-US/UK Italian Campaigns: See above
-European Air War: Further, the continued bombardment of German industrial capacity, which the USSR was totally incapable of doing, was absolutely vital to the war effort. Without the US/UK aerial campaigns and the disruption caused to the German economy, Hitler's war machine would have been able to turn out more tanks, guns, aircraft and trucks than Stalin could have overcome.

Oh, and that whole other theater of the war in the Pacific, that distracted so very much of the US Navy, the bulk of which force could have taken the Atlantic against all comers very early on in the war.

The Soviets didn't fight harder, the US/UK alliance just fought smarter.

Well, then stop and remember the fallen Axis troops whenever you want. I didn't say anything about remembering dead soldiers, only those that were part of the D-Day invasion.

It's my post, I can remember whoever I want.

It was a neutral, non-Allied biased OP.

But the phrase "It's my post, I can remember whoever I want." makes me giggle for some reason.

Perhaps because it sounds like "It's my party and I'll cry if I want to."

...damn you man, now I have that song stuck in my head! :p

people doing what they think is good at the time is what defines human history (in this case voting a popular European movement that promised to tear up the Versailles treaty)

course its awfully fun to look in hindsight isn't it




millions died when the people lived in a police state, yes there where heroes who fought the regime but few are willing to put there loved ones and there lives at risk its human nature

yes brainwashed SS guards represent the perfect example of German society at the time

blame for those killed in concentration camps :confused:

making aggressive wars on nations that occupied German territory or declared war on Germany... course your still forgetting Germany had become a police state at that point

again I will say most people won't risk there loved ones when it comes to it Heroes are rare and the idea that one must be one doesn't belong this side of the 50's


None of which exculpates the German people. It explains their reasons, but gives no excuse.

It was a neutral, non-Allied biased OP.

But the phrase "It's my post, I can remember whoever I want." makes me giggle for some reason.

Perhaps because it sounds like "It's my party and I'll cry if I want to."

...damn you man, now I have that song stuck in my head! :p

Here DM....

Enjoy (http://youtube.com/watch?v=4qf7RSNCg40) :D

whoo 900 posts!!

Here DM....

Enjoy (http://youtube.com/watch?v=4qf7RSNCg40) :D

whoo 900 posts!!

:D

1000 packets of curry for you, my brown brotha!

(and cumin, if that's your thing)

None of which exculpates the German people. It explains their reasons, but gives no excuse.

I'm sorry but having a gun to your head or a hungry belly is an excuse for anything especially voting for a man who promises change and then uses emergency powers to set up a police state (here is a nifty little site for you most likely aimed at school children (http://www.johndclare.net/Weimar7.htm))

course its horrible for me to destroy your imaginary world of good and evil

FFS, it didn't take this one long to get derailed. D-Day was a good thing, because otherwise the Soviets would've just rolled in through into Western Europe, and we all know how good that would've been for the people living there... :rolleyes:

FFS, it didn't take this one long to get derailed. D-Day was a good thing, because otherwise the Soviets would've just rolled in through into Western Europe, and we all know how good that would've been for the people living there... :rolleyes:

no killing is never good, D-day was at best the better of two evils which is how life works not some dandy cartoon

no killing is never good, D-day was at best the better of two evils which is how life works not some dandy cartoon
You might want to edit that. :D

... Unless of course you're trying to say that we should all go on killing sprees to be good that is. ;)

no killing is never good, D-day was at best the better of two evils which is how life works not some dandy cartoon

Very true. Though there's nothing wrong with honoring the veterans who had to do the killing, especially since some kinds of killing is more acceptable than others.

:D

1000 packets of curry for you, my brown brotha!



http://www.geocities.com/pearly1900/homer/homer-woohoo.gif


(and cumin, if that's your thing)

no thanks...

... Unless of course you're trying to say that we should all go on killing sprees to be good that is. ;)

well randomly shooting German prisoners wasn't something that was considered particularly serious for the allies :p

Very true. Though there's nothing wrong with honoring the veterans who had to do the killing, especially since some kinds of killing is more acceptable than others.

my issue was with the fact that the Germans troops who fought just as hard as the allies get tossed aside in the OP as if they where evil machines who never had mothers

no killing is never good

So you would not kill in self-defense?

Yes, and that was 2 and a half years that Stalin had been requesting a landing in France to relieve his own front, they refused mostly because a few more dead reds didn't worry them.

Are you now claiming that not invading France prematurely is the same thing as leaping into a war at an 'opportune' moment? I don't think I quite follow how you're leaping from point A to point F in your argument here.

So you would not kill in self-defense?

why on Earth would I kill in self defense? and how exactly is that supposed to make it alright?

my issue was with the fact that the Germans troops who fought just as hard as the allies get tossed aside in the OP as if they where evil machines who never had mothers

YOU MEAN THEY WEREN'T!!!!!
:p

By the way, pause a moment to remember those that joined in battle to reclaim liberty for the continent of Europe on this day in 1944.

*tries to remember*

*reads history book*

Can't recall that ever happening, but a lot of other people seem to think it did.

Yes, and that was 2 and a half years that Stalin had been requesting a landing in France to relieve his own front, they refused mostly because a few more dead reds didn't worry them. Look at the battles at Stalingrad, Moscow, Leningrad, the Kursk etc etc, and tell me who defeated Germany, and whos Red flag flew above the Nazi parliament.

Don't forget the Soviets fighting in N Africa and the invasion of Italy by the Soviets. Lest we forget the Soviet Unions contributions to the war in the Pacific. Also all the lend-lease the Soviet Union gave to the rest of the allies.:rolleyes:

I'm sorry but having a gun to your head or a hungry belly is an excuse for anything especially voting for a man who promises change and then uses emergency powers to set up a police state (here is a nifty little site for you most likely aimed at school children (http://www.johndclare.net/Weimar7.htm))

course its horrible for me to destroy your imaginary world of good and evil

As I said before, it does not remove the responsibility from the German people for what the Nazi regime did. It is on the shoulders of the German people who allowed Hitler to rise to power, to abuse the power they gave him, and to use them to the purposes he did, that the blame must be laid.

Lord knows that I am very well acquainted with German culture of the nineteen-twenties and nineteen-thirties. Far more than you could ever hope to be, you sad, ignorant fool. My education on German culture and history is extensive, as it is a key focus of my study. So don't you give me a goddam lecture on how and why Hitler came to power.

Did the German people have reasons for supporting Hitler? Sure. Do those reasons justify what they did. ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY NOT. I do not sympathize with them in the slightest.

There were those who had courage, those who stood up. They may have suffered at the hands of the regime. If only others had had that same courage.

I have never, ever, advocated a viewpoint that the world is good-and-evil, black-and-white. Absolutism is an error, but absolute moral relativism is also an error. The world is colored in shades of gray, and Nazism is pretty goddam dark.

So you would not kill in self-defense?

I have had this conversation with others on this board before. There are some that would be killed rather then kill someone else. To me that does not sound logical however I believe that is the individuals right. Myself my survival instinct is strong and wouldn't hesitate to take someone out that I knew would surely kill me. Most people have this mindset. Those that don't are at the mercy of the "survival of the fittest" rule.

I have never, ever, advocated a viewpoint that the world is good-and-evil, black-and-white. Absolutism is an error, but absolute moral relativism is also an error. The world is colored in shades of gray, and Nazism is pretty goddam dark.

QFT

and what about the Axis troops that lost there lives?

It will be a cold day in hell before I give a damn about any Axis troop who lost his life on D-Day.

That's what they get for fighting for the Third Reich.

I have had this conversation with others on this board before. There are some that would be killed rather then kill someone else. To me that does not sound logical however I believe that is the individuals right. Myself my survival instinct is strong and wouldn't hesitate to take someone out that I knew would surely kill me. Most people have this mindset. Those that don't are at the mercy of the "survival of the fittest" rule.

Indeed, quite interesting though rather rare (thankfully, a species doesn't survive if it doesn't want to look out for itself).

By the way, pause a moment to remember those that joined in battle to reclaim liberty for the continent of Europe on this day in 1944.

Indeed.

I actually just gave a class on the use of air power at D-Day for my squadron of Civil Air Patrol (US Air Force Auxiliary) cadets tonight.

These people, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose) merely six individuals. Six normal, average, everyday people stood up for simple, civil decency. Had only the German population removed their blinders, and stood up like they had...if only.

No one was holding a gun to the collective heads of the German people, except for the German people themselves. The Brownshirts who stormed the streets were of the German people. The SS and Gestapo agents, whom you claim were holding guns to the heads of the German people were of the German people. They didn't just join up idly. No, they joined up because their families and friends encouraged and supported them. No, it was not some mysterious external force, floating around in the nether that turned Germany into a police state. It was the people of German who did so, and rare were the guns pointed at the heads of the German people.

It is certain that today every honest German is ashamed of his government. Who among us has any conception of the dimensions of shame that will befall us and our children when one day the veil has fallen from our eyes and the most horrible of crimes ... reach the light of day?

Since the conquest of Poland three hundred thousand Jews have been murdered in this country in the most bestial way ... The German people slumber on in their dull, stupid sleep and encourage these fascist criminals ... Each man wants to be exonerated of a guilt of this kind, each one continues on his way with the most placid, the calmest conscience. But he cannot be exonerated; he is guilty, guilty, guilty!

The people of Germany knew what was happening, and they allowed it to happen. Those who sat idly by as the trains rolled down the tracks, as the Panzers swept into the lands of their neighbors, they are guilty. They had the blood of millions on their hands because they did nothing.

They had the blood of millions on their hands because they did nothing.
I'm not sure anyone is actually disagreeing with you anymore.

The justification for the existence of the Federal Republic is precisely what "Germany" (and thus "the Germans", with the usual limitations of any use of a collective term) did.

Nonetheless, the people who defended the beaches on D-Day were mostly special (read: old or for all intents and purposes invalid) divisions and conscripted foreigners. Insofar as some of them signed up voluntarily, they carry part of the blame. But that doesn't mean that the rest shouldn't be remembered (not as heroes, more as victims).

And to use one prominent example...what do you make of Günter Grass?

Indeed, quite interesting though rather rare (thankfully, a species doesn't survive if it doesn't want to look out for itself).
Uh... right...

I've never heard that a species is an individual and given that a species survives when mating happens and offspring are produced, an individual's choice on whether to fight or not seems to have very little to do with survival of the species.

Well, then stop and remember the fallen Axis troops whenever you want. I pause to remember those scared *hitless reservists who must have been screaming "I want my mommy" or "At least it's not the Russians" while manning their guns.

I didn't say anything about remembering dead soldiers, only those that were part of the D-Day invasion. It's my post, I can remember whoever I want.

Where is that Quote I had about the little kid talking about their grandfather being at D-day.

The teacher argued with the student because he told her that he wasn't with the paratroopers or the beach landings.

When she gave up she asked "Where was he?"
"Guarding the Beach."

(I REALLY need to find that story)

and what about the Axis troops that lost there lives?

Screw 'em.

The Axis were fighting for their homeland and or what they believed in. That warrants heroism in my opinion.

As for the whole Russia debacle... Do you know that at the end of the war, 80% of Russian logistics was run on American duece-and-a-half trucks? The USSR would have been crushed if the British and American aid (ok, mostly American but at least half the escorting was done by British vessels) hadn't had poured through:

Just look at some of the figures:
14,795 Aircraft
7,056 Tanks
51,503 Jeeps
375,883 Trucks
106,893,000 tons of Cotton
3,786,000 Tires
15,417,001 pairs of boots (you try fighting a war in Russia without boots)

Without allied aid the USSR would have fallen. If Britain, Canada, and the US had only supplied Russia and not opened up a second front, then Italy, Germany, the Low Countries and France would have all fallen to the red bear eventually. The alternative is a free west europe and an oppressed east europe, or an oppressed europe, given the Soviets were probably actually worse than the Nazis.

http://sovmusic.ru/jpg/posters/ussr0189.jpg

Soldier! THe Motherland waits for this day!

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k250/IJNYamamoto/ANOC/antibolshevik.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/1/1f/VerkiezingsposterDuitsland.png

http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/1/1f/VerkiezingsposterDuitsland.png

Now I don't post often, I mostly lurk (even though I've been here since 2003), but damn, this one was too funny to pass! It gave me a good laugh ;)

Now I don't post often, I mostly lurk (even though I've been here since 2003), but damn, this one was too funny to pass! It gave me a good laugh ;)
Yay, I made a lurker post!

Though I can't take all the credit. Uncyclopedia is the source, IMHO the funniest website on the web.

I do not sympathize with them in the slightest.

Yes, I'm sure millions of German women and little girls deserved to be gang raped because their parents voted for the guy who said he'd prevent them from starving to death.

Yes, I'm sure millions of German women and little girls deserved to be gang raped because their parents voted for the guy who said he'd prevent them from starving to death.

What are you talking about?

What are you talking about?

He said he doesn't sympathise with the suffering of the German people because they voted for and didn't stop Hitler.

The Axis were fighting for their homeland and or what they believed in. That warrants heroism in my opinion.

As for the whole Russia debacle... Do you know that at the end of the war, 80% of Russian logistics was run on American duece-and-a-half trucks? The USSR would have been crushed if the British and American aid (ok, mostly American but at least half the escorting was done by British vessels) hadn't had poured through:

Just look at some of the figures:
14,795 Aircraft
7,056 Tanks
51,503 Jeeps
375,883 Trucks
106,893,000 tons of Cotton
3,786,000 Tires
15,417,001 pairs of boots (you try fighting a war in Russia without boots)

Without allied aid the USSR would have fallen. If Britain, Canada, and the US had only supplied Russia and not opened up a second front, then Italy, Germany, the Low Countries and France would have all fallen to the red bear eventually. The alternative is a free west europe and an oppressed east europe, or an oppressed europe, given the Soviets were probably actually worse than the Nazis.

Doubtful. A huge part of the reason for the collapse on the Eastern Front was that the Allies were tieing up 2 million Germans and the Italians in the boot and more in preparation for the D-day landings. The Russians did incredible things on the Eastern Front with next to nothing, but they would have ground themselves to nothing against the Germans and slogged a lot less far to show for it had we not opened up several new fronts and closed off their access to iron from Sweden across the Baltic and systematically torched every manufacturing center they had.

We need to remember there was a reason why the Russians were screaming for us to open up a second front; it was their boys who were dying hand over fist. We also need to remember that there was no good way to pick between the Russians and the Germans in 1941, nor was there any non-ludicrous way of getting them to destroy each other so we could swoop in and democratize the world. I must say I do get tired of revisionists who insist we could have stopped Stalin if we'd just let him beat his head against the Wermacht a little harder; it isn't true, and the only result would have been a Wermacht that could turn its full attention to the very men this thread celebrates. Had we let Stalin and Hitler duke it out, all it would have meant was the Russians being crushed at either Moscow or Stalingrad or St. Petersburg, and then our hopes for splitting the Nazi attention would have been dashed to our own detriment.

As I said before, it does not remove the responsibility from the German people for what the Nazi regime did. It is on the shoulders of the German people who allowed Hitler to rise to power, to abuse the power they gave him, and to use them to the purposes he did, that the blame must be laid.

weird then that odds are your government is doing the same thing, maybe you should go do something about that before you feel the need to blame the German people for being human

Lord knows that I am very well acquainted with German culture of the nineteen-twenties and nineteen-thirties. Far more than you could ever hope to be, you sad, ignorant fool. My education on German culture and history is extensive, as it is a key focus of my study. So don't you give me a goddam lecture on how and why Hitler came to power.

oh well if your doing any studying it looks like your on the road to fail, maybe you should do a GCSE history course seeing as how you understand so little about it

There were those who had courage, those who stood up. They may have suffered at the hands of the regime. If only others had had that same courage.

so your now using the "lack of moral fiber" excuse, by any chance are you a time traveler from the 50's because that would make perfect sense

That's what they get for fighting for the Third Reich.

yeah silly Axis troops either conscripted or fighting in fear of what would happen if they lose...

wait wasn't that just like the allied troops!

This argument over which country did more is just silly, each played their part and helped each other out, as it is normal in a war (and just more generally) to work with your allies to achieve something.

But equally, demonising German soldiers is just morally disgusting. They did not deserve to die any more than any allied soldier. No doubt most of us would have been conscripted if we had been in the same situation. Or shot for being 'traitors', if we hadn't managed to get out of the country by then.