NationStates Jolt Archive

True Fascists of the New Europe

Patrick J. Buchanan

April 30 2002

Patrick J. Buchanan

When fascism comes to America, said Huey Long, it will come in the guise of anti-fascism. And since Vietnam, it has been so.

Brownshirt tactics ? shouting down speakers, disrupting opposition rallies, demonstrations that degenerate into riots ? have all been used repeatedly by self-described fighters against racism and fascism. And invariably, these crimes against decency and democracy have been ignored or condoned by those who share the left's revulsion of the right.

In the wake of Jean-Marie Le Pen's capture of 17 percent of the vote in the first round of France's presidential election, the French Establishment, too, has shown great tolerance for fascist tactics in resisting any rebirth of the European Right.

No sooner had the returns come in, eliminating socialist Premier Lionel Jospin from the run-off, than mobs were in the streets. French President Jacques Chirac, who had won fewer than one in five votes, swiftly embraced Trotskyite and Communist support in the second round, but refused to debate Le Pen. In the European Parliament, Le Pen was shouted down. Protesters threatened to disrupt his press conference, forcing its cancellation.

Though Le Pen has made radical and foolish statements, there is no evidence he is a Nazi. His hero is not Hitler but Joan of Arc, and he and his National Front have accepted defeat in every election they have lost. No, Le Pen is hated and feared not just for who he is, but for the issues he has raised. And what are those issues?

He wants France to opt out of the euro bloc, as the British have done, and to restore the franc as France's national currency. He is calling for a national referendum on whether France should reclaim sovereign powers it has surrendered to the European Union. Cannot Americans, who would never give up our dollar and who reject the new International Criminal Court, understand?

Le Pen opposed America's war in Kosovo. But so, too, did a majority of House Republicans. He denounces what the Israelis are doing on the West Bank, but even President Bush wants Sharon out. He does not want a war on Iraq, but neither do any of our other allies. He wants a France forever independent of the United States. Cannot Americans, to whom independence is sacred, not understand how other nations might not wish to be part of an American Imperium?

Le Pen supports capital punishment and believes the French should be allowed to vote on its restoration, and not have the death penalty outlawed by the EU. We Americans, too, would be rebellious toward any supranational political body that dared to dictate an end to capital punishment in the United States.

Crime is the issue driving voters into Le Pen's corner. He associates rising crime with rising Arab and Islamic immigration, and wants illegal aliens expelled. But Americans, too, want illegal immigration halted and gate-crashers sent back. And a rising share of our own prison population consists of illegal aliens, and our own president's proposed amnesty for illegal immigrants ignited a storm of protest across America, forcing the Republican Party to back off.

As European elites deny Le Pen courtesies they routinely extend to Communists and Trotskyites, the message is clear: In the New Europe, some issues are closed forever. They have been decided, and no second thoughts will be entertained. While Trotskyites and Communists are welcome, the Populist Right and its ideas are pariahs. There is no room for them, or the people who advance them, in the New Europe.

On the Index of Forbidden Issues are any restrictions on Third World immigration, the deportation of illegal aliens, statements critical of minorities and any return of sovereign power once ceded to the EU. Though the death penalty may be favored by majorities in European nations, capital punishment is to be outlawed forever. It is outside the restricted range of issues that the people may henceforth decide.

As it is often the criminal himself who is first to cry, "Thief!" so it is usually those who scream, "Fascist!" loudest who are the quickest to resort to anti-democratic tactics.

Today, the greatest threat to the freedom and independence of the nations of Europe comes not from Le Pen and that 17 percent of French men and women who voted for him. It comes from an intolerant European Establishment that will accept no rollback of its powers or privileges, nor any reversal of policies it deems "progressive."

As the New Europe taking shape is the prototype of the World Government to come, Americans should take note. Let us hope that Sunday, French voters will deliver that New Europe a good right cross to the head.

The far left is as totalitarian as the far right? SHOCK!!! :rolleyes:

I take it the initials that make up your nations name are no coincidence? Jean Marie Le Pen is a repugnant arsehole, and as with all fascists his followers are morons.

Le Pen is neither racist, anti-semitic or facist! He always critzed Nazism, Facism and Communism in his speeches! He said that they were all leftist ideologies which were bastards of the French revolution!

The new politics of hate
By Patrick J. Buchanan
Monday, May 13, 2002

"Volkert van der Graf, 32, is a slender, blond-haired Dutchman whose pictures reveal nothing special except perhaps a taut, ascetic look. "But for almost a decade, friends and associates say, this quiet man and strict vegetarian has been consumed by his fight to reduce the suffering of animals reared in industrial quantities for food, fur coats or medical experiments." Sounds like a description of St. Francis of Assisi, doesn't it? But it is not. These are the lead paragraphs in The New York Times story that describes the enviro-fanatic charged with gunning down Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn outside a TV studio this week. What the Times does not describe is the pivotal role played by the European establishment and media in creating the climate of hysteria and hate in which a fanatic like Volkert van der Graf might feel morally justified in murdering Fortuyn. Since Jean-Marie Le Pen carried 17 percent of the vote in the first round of the French election, it has been Hate Week across Europe. The Left has gone berserk, savaging populist leaders who challenge the EU or demand tougher immigration laws. Fortuyn, whose party was running first in some polls for the Dutch elections this month, got the full treatment. Denounced as a "dangerous man" by the Dutch finance minister, he repeatedly protested that he was being demonized. Yet, day after day, it continued. He, Le Pen and Jorge Haider of Austria were painted as extremists or neo-fascists. Europeans were admonished to unite to stop the spreading menace. In Europe's media, it is open season and the Populist Right has become a free-fire zone. The results are now in, and the European establishment is as much to blame for this man's death as the Likudnik fanatics were for the murder of Yitzhak Rabin, whom they painted as a traitor and Nazi for his willingness to trade land for peace. In the two weeks between the first round and the run-off of the French election, there were riots against Le Pen, he was shouted down when speaking to the European parliament and his press conference had to be canceled because of threats of disruption. And who protested these fascist tactics? Meanwhile, President Chirac was given a free pass as he trashed French tradition and refused Le Pen's challenge to debate. The message sent by the Euromedia: The Populist Right is an illegitimate force in the New Europe and tactics that might be judged fascist if used by the Right may be used against it, and absolution is available. Umberto Boss, whose Northern League is a partner in the government of Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, said Fortuyn was killed in a "climate which the left has created and continues to create throughout Europe with the help of the media aimed at demonizing all who oppose what they think." What were the sins of Pim Fortuyn for which it was acceptable for the Dutch finance minister to brand him a "dangerous man," and for others to call him an extremist and neo-fascist? What made this liberal and open homosexual a man of the Right, whom it was acceptable to vilify? Fortuyn had linked immigration to crime, called Islam a "backward" religion, and was campaigning to maintain the ethnic and cultural identity of the Dutch nation and people. That Fortuyn had thrown off the morality of his church did not matter. His unpardonable sin that cried out to heaven for vengeance was that he rejected the higher truths of multiculturalism. There is a new totalitarianism afoot in the West. Unlike the Stalinist form, it does not use police-state violence to command conformity. Its method is to redefine Rightist positions as evil, the product of a hate-filled or diseased mind, then read the Right out of the human race. Thus, anyone who argues that immigration has become so huge it threatens national cohesion or security is a "xenophobe." Oppose racial quotas, and you are a "racist." Defend the all-male military schools like VMI and the Citadel, and you are a "sexist." Oppose homosexual marriages, and you are a "homophobe" who hates and fears homosexuals. Scholar Paul Gottfried has called it "the dehumanization of dissent." First, you strip away an opponent's claim to decency and fair treatment by painting him as a right-wing extremist and hater, then you wash your hands of culpability when some wacko concludes he is doing the world a favor by murdering him -- like they murdered Pim Fortuyn.

Le Pen is neither racist, anti-semitic or facist! He always critzed Nazism, Facism and Communism in his speeches! He said that they were all leftist ideologies which were bastards of the French revolution!

To claim Le Pen is not racist is laughable. He is a holocaust denying scumbag.

*sigh* well lets see:


Pat Buchanan

a far right nationalist that essentially runs as the French BNP

the E.U being paraded as some huge authoritarian regime that holds power over the peoples of Europe for some sinister goal

Pat Buchanan


so just a normal day out for the extreme right then

(also here is a little Gem from Le pen: In May 1987 he advocated isolating those infected with HIV (whom he calls "sidaïques") from society by placing them in a special "sidatorium")

He apologised to the Jewish Community one day later after his foolish remark! It was stupid of him to say that, but he did not deny the holocaust! That was what Buchanan said in his article!

Mr Jo Goldenberg, a famous French Holocaust survivor who lost his family in the Holocaust, voted for Mr Le Pen in 2002, saying that although he has said some shocking things some years back, he was in the best interest of France, and thus that was what was most important for him. Why don't you ask him if he is far-right?

Nazism and Fascism is essentially socialist, with nationalistic and racist characteristics added on to keep certain elements subdued. I'm curious if anybody remembered the 'Socialism' in NS. And Socialists are now dominating and rule the EU! Right-wingers have proved to be in the good cause all throughout history. De-Gaulle, the Free French leader, was right-wing. To an extent, so was Churchill. Margaret Thatcher was right-wing. Moshe Dayan was right-wing. Compare this to socialists. Marx was socialist. Lenin was . Stalin was left-wing. Mussolini was socialist. Hitler was socialist. Mao was socialist. Pol-Pot was socialist. Together different parts of socialism, although they have fought each other, eg Nazism and Communism, are essentially the same as they are all totalitarian. Adding on all the crimes of communism and fascism/Nazism, more than 100 million people were killed by socialist ideologies. Le Pen is right-wing, and that's why he's right!

Le Pen is neither racist, anti-semitic or facist! He always critzed Nazism, Facism and Communism in his speeches! He said that they were all leftist ideologies which were bastards of the French revolution!

Nazism and Fascism are leftist ideologies? Well, if he's not a fascist, he's still clearly an idiot.

Although he is a fascist, don't try to deny it. Non-fascists don't say that the occupation of France by the Nazis was "not especially inhumane".

I take it the initials that make up your nations name are no coincidence? Jean Marie Le Pen is a repugnant arsehole, and as with all fascists his followers are morons.

Nice call!

I don't like the BNP because they do not accept colored members, but they are not neo-nazi or anti-semitic as they have Jewish members!

The new politics of hate
By Patrick J. Buchanan
Monday, May 13, 2002

"Volkert van der Graf, 32, is a slender, blond-haired Dutchman whose pictures reveal nothing special except perhaps a taut, ascetic look. "But for almost a decade, friends and associates say, this quiet man and strict vegetarian has been consumed by his fight to reduce the suffering of animals reared in industrial quantities for food, fur coats or medical experiments." Sounds like a description of St. Francis of Assisi, doesn't it? But it is not. These are the lead paragraphs in The New York Times story that describes the enviro-fanatic charged with gunning down Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn outside a TV studio this week. What the Times does not describe is the pivotal role played by the European establishment and media in creating the climate of hysteria and hate in which a fanatic like Volkert van der Graf might feel morally justified in murdering Fortuyn. Since Jean-Marie Le Pen carried 17 percent of the vote in the first round of the French election, it has been Hate Week across Europe. The Left has gone berserk, savaging populist leaders who challenge the EU or demand tougher immigration laws. Fortuyn, whose party was running first in some polls for the Dutch elections this month, got the full treatment. Denounced as a "dangerous man" by the Dutch finance minister, he repeatedly protested that he was being demonized. Yet, day after day, it continued. He, Le Pen and Jorge Haider of Austria were painted as extremists or neo-fascists. Europeans were admonished to unite to stop the spreading menace. In Europe's media, it is open season and the Populist Right has become a free-fire zone. The results are now in, and the European establishment is as much to blame for this man's death as the Likudnik fanatics were for the murder of Yitzhak Rabin, whom they painted as a traitor and Nazi for his willingness to trade land for peace. In the two weeks between the first round and the run-off of the French election, there were riots against Le Pen, he was shouted down when speaking to the European parliament and his press conference had to be canceled because of threats of disruption. And who protested these fascist tactics? Meanwhile, President Chirac was given a free pass as he trashed French tradition and refused Le Pen's challenge to debate. The message sent by the Euromedia: The Populist Right is an illegitimate force in the New Europe and tactics that might be judged fascist if used by the Right may be used against it, and absolution is available. Umberto Boss, whose Northern League is a partner in the government of Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, said Fortuyn was killed in a "climate which the left has created and continues to create throughout Europe with the help of the media aimed at demonizing all who oppose what they think." What were the sins of Pim Fortuyn for which it was acceptable for the Dutch finance minister to brand him a "dangerous man," and for others to call him an extremist and neo-fascist? What made this liberal and open homosexual a man of the Right, whom it was acceptable to vilify? Fortuyn had linked immigration to crime, called Islam a "backward" religion, and was campaigning to maintain the ethnic and cultural identity of the Dutch nation and people. That Fortuyn had thrown off the morality of his church did not matter. His unpardonable sin that cried out to heaven for vengeance was that he rejected the higher truths of multiculturalism. There is a new totalitarianism afoot in the West. Unlike the Stalinist form, it does not use police-state violence to command conformity. Its method is to redefine Rightist positions as evil, the product of a hate-filled or diseased mind, then read the Right out of the human race. Thus, anyone who argues that immigration has become so huge it threatens national cohesion or security is a "xenophobe." Oppose racial quotas, and you are a "racist." Defend the all-male military schools like VMI and the Citadel, and you are a "sexist." Oppose homosexual marriages, and you are a "homophobe" who hates and fears homosexuals. Scholar Paul Gottfried has called it "the dehumanization of dissent." First, you strip away an opponent's claim to decency and fair treatment by painting him as a right-wing extremist and hater, then you wash your hands of culpability when some wacko concludes he is doing the world a favor by murdering him -- like they murdered Pim Fortuyn.

No, the EU isn't fascist. What makes you think it so?

And what's the point of your post? If you don't offer an opinion or commentary, it's spamming. That's not to be nasty, mind, I don't want to see your first thread locked my the mods. :)

No, the EU isn't fascist. What makes you think it so?

And what's the point of your post? If you don't offer an opinion or commentary, it's spamming. That's not to be nasty, mind, I don't want to see your first thread locked my the mods. :)

You need to take a look at the reverse racism thread, where JMLP - who no doubt is another puppet - makes his initial points.

To claim Le Pen is not racist is laughable. He is a holocaust denying scumbag.

Le Pen has denied the holocaust? :o

The youngest Front National regional councilor, Stephane Durbec.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5057/headerea5.jpg

Huguette Fatna, an Martinique immigrant to France, the Front National councilor of d'Ile-de.

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/2279/huguettefatnasy8.jpg

Madamosille Fatna with Bruno Gollnisch, a high ranking FN official. He made an objectionable and foolish remark which state - 'I do not question the existence of concentration camps but historians could discuss the number of deaths. As to the existence of gas chambers, it is up to historians to speak their minds.' He was rightfully criticized by Marine Le Pen. However, when asked at his trial by the judge whether 'the "organized extermination of European Jews by the Nazi regime constitutes an undeniable crime against humanity, and that it has been carried out notably by using gas chamber in extermination camps.", he replied "absolutely."

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6553/img0125xa1.jpg

Madamosille Fatna at an FN rally.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/281/018xq3.jpg

Farid Smahi, the son of Algerian immigrants, a victim of anti-immigrant discrimination and an original leftist, now the Front National deputy councilor municipal of Paris. He poses with Jean-Marie Le Pen on 8 January 2007 at St. Cloud after the addressing of new year's greetings to the press. He said -

There is no contradiction in being Arab or black or any other minority and voting Le Pen. French minorities and banlieue residents see they've been manipulated and exploited by both the hypocritical left and sham right for years now. Nothing has changed except the racism. So this time around, expect a lot of people to be casting votes for Le Pen in the hopes that, at last, things may change.

What initially appealed to me was hearing the National Front message that if I accepted the responsibilities of citizenship, I'd have the right of national preference in return. That means we halt immigration until we can provide for people already here, and reserve the wealth and jobs of the nation first for citizens. That message means a lot in projects where unemployment is nearly 50%, and many French residents can't get work.

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/6176/postcardparis0306ic0.jpg

Monsieur Smahi accompanying Jean-Marie Le Pen during his visit to the immigrant slum suburbs of Argentuil on 6 April 2007.. He told the Frenchmen of Arab origin that "You are the branches of the tree that is France. You are full-fledged Frenchmen." Here is some footage of the visit. http://youtube.com/watch?v=JMjIOp2oomU

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/7473/949662185va7.jpg

[i]Jean-Pierre Cohen, a Jewish member of the Front National, who co-wrote 'Ni raciste, ni antisemite', which translates to 'Neither racist, nor anti-semitic', a FN pamphlet published by the FN in October 1997. He is eating at an FN party, or dinner, and is the one with glasses closest to the camera.

In Jean-Marie Le Pen's foolish statement about the Death Camps, what is not said is that 60 seconds after he also said that there were "millions of Jewish deaths and also of people who were not Jews." Jean-Marie Le Pen has condemned anti-semitic violence in France. The National Support Committee for Jean-Marie Le Pen's candidature consists of Frenchmen/women from all walks of life who have made their mark in French life, including survivors of Nazi death camps, as well as the black FN councilors.

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/3013/parisfev055op4.jpg

Jean-Marie Le Pen pays his respects at the World War I Chinese cemetery for the fallen Chinese Labour Corps personnel in Noyelles-sur-Mer on 8 February 2007. Study carefully in what national characters are the gravestones inscribed with, and what type of cultural respect to the dead Jean-Marie is doing.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/6190/lepenchinesecemeterywl6.jpg

An interesting video - http://youtube.com/watch?v=gcv0PgdFEbE

The Eu is fascist now? Please tell me when this happened and how I can stop being oppressed.

You need to take a look at the reverse racism thread, where JMLP - who no doubt is another puppet - makes his initial points.

You're being awfully generous to call what JMLP does "making his points".

I am no puppet! I am a new member to this forum and I have my rights to freedom of speech! I hope that the there will not be any liberal NKVD or Gestapo here to force down my points with personal attacks!

Le Pen has denied the holocaust? :o

Hmm... sort of (http://mondediplo.com/1998/05/08igou).

he asked whether the existence of the gas chambers was "a revealed truth in which everyone had to believe". It was, he claimed, "a subject of debate among historians".

I hear he talks a lot about TEH JEWISH WORLD CONSPIRACY as well.

Le Pen has denied the holocaust? :o

He has been convicted in a German Court for it - the EU removed his parliamentary privilege so the case could go ahead.

He has been convicted in a German Court for it - the EU removed his parliamentary privilege so the case could go ahead.

Yes, but this was not for 'denying' the Holocaust so much as 'downplaying it's significance'. That's completely different.

Thus, on 13 September 1987 he said: "I ask myself several questions. I'm not saying the gas chambers didn't exist. I haven't seen them myself. I haven't particularly studied the question. But I believe it's just a detail in the history of World War II." He was condemned to pay 1.2 million Francs (183,200 Euros).[12] In 1997, the European Parliament, of which Le Pen was then a member, removed his parliamentary immunity so that Le Pen could be tried by a German court for comments he made at a December 1996 press conference before the German Republikaner party. Le Pen stated there that: "If you take a 1,000-page book on World War II, the concentration camps take up only two pages and the gas chambers 10 to 15 lines. This is what one calls a detail." Le Pen had made a similar statement in France in 1987, which also caused him to be condemned in virtue of the Gayssot Act on negationism. In June 1999, a Munich court found this statement to be "minimizing the Holocaust, which caused the deaths of six million Jews," and convicted and fined Le Pen for his remarks.[13][14]

That's from Wikipedia.

Guess what?

I'm Jewish, Israeli, and I agree with this.

The Holocaust is not a unique event in human history or even in the history of WWII.

Teaching it as somehow unique and world-changing an event is extremely detrimental.

Le Pen has denied the holocaust? :o

He said that it was a 'detail of history'. I think it is foolish remark, but he actually apologised to any Jews he may have hurt publically, 1 day after! He is not holocuast denier! There are Jewish members of Front National and a famous Holocaust survivor, Mr Jo Goldenberg, voted for him in 2002! Many Jewish French people, around 30000 of them, according to the Jerusalem Report, support Le Pen because he opposes mass immigration, as many immigrants from Middle East is REAL anti-semite and anti-Israel! Le Pen actuall is pro-Israel!

He has been convicted in a German Court for it - the EU removed his parliamentary privilege so the case could go ahead.
If only Griffin/Collet could be as well. I'd like to remind the whining little middle-Englanders who boast about standing up for 'traditional British values' what they are associating themselves with - homophobes, fascists, islamophobes, racists and anti-semites.

He said that it was a 'detail of history'. I think it is foolish remark, but he actually apologised to any Jews he may have hurt publically, 1 day after! He is not holocuast denier! There are Jewish members of Front National and a famous Holocaust survivor, Mr Jo Goldenberg, voted for him in 2002! Many Jewish French people, around 30000 of them, according to the Jerusalem Report, support Le Pen because he opposes mass immigration, as many immigrants from Middle East is REAL anti-semite and anti-Israel! Le Pen actuall is pro-Israel!

There were Jewish members of the SA and the Nazi Party too, y'know.

A famous Holocaust survivor. Whose claim to fame is the ownership of a popular restaurant. Whoopdefrickindoo. If you have to resort to one Holocaust survivor out of thousands voting for Le Pen to prove he's not a Nazi, you have a problem.

Oh, you might want to reduce the exclamation marks!!!11!!one!

The Eu is fascist now? Please tell me when this happened and how I can stop being oppressed.

Because, like Londim can attest, the EU is a monolithic institution and all it's members act the same way. :rolleyes:

Sorry Londim, you are being so oppressed that you don't even kow you are being kept down. It's time to rise up against the evil imperialism, kick out immigrants and start living the true utopian dream of a Christian state.

Down with oppressive social nets!

Let Mr Le Pen speak for himself! Here is exceprts from an interview!

"There has definitely been a rise in anti-Semitism and anti-Semitic acts in the past year and a half," he says. "Curses and graffiti have given way to attacks and incitement. It's all an outgrowth of what's happening in the Middle East now. The height of the flames depends on how the conflict develops, on the parties' readiness to reach a compromise."

"I have no idea what `classic anti-Semitism' is. I'm not familiar with this term. I don't know where it comes from and what connection it has to France and what is occurring here. There wasn't anti-Semitism in France. An isolated incident can always happen. When two drivers curse each other on the road, and one of them happens to be a Jew, you can't define that as anti-Semitism. In recent years - before the intifada - there were three or four incidents of anti-Semitism a year, and that's out of 18 million crimes and violations of the law."

"I have no idea what `classic anti-Semitism' is. I'm not familiar with this term. I don't know where it comes from and what connection it has to France and what is occurring here. There wasn't anti-Semitism in France. An isolated incident can always happen. When two drivers curse each other on the road, and one of them happens to be a Jew, you can't define that as anti-Semitism. In recent years - before the intifada - there were three or four incidents of anti-Semitism a year, and that's out of 18 million crimes and violations of the law."

"The Dreyfus Affair is an exceptional case. It's true that here and there you can find some dregs of anti-Semitism, but the situation is the same in every country. After all, you're not exactly a nation like all the other nations. You are unique, if only because you are such an ancient people, and because of the way you are spread all over the world and your obvious success in many fields. But, in all honesty, anti-Semitism in France has always remained on a minimal level, at the verbal level only. It never went as far as pogroms."

"I don't think it is accurate to say that the movement was founded or run by Nazi collaborators. First of all, my influence in the party has always been decisive and I have never compromised on these things. In the movement itself, there was no mention of fascism or national-socialism. In my speeches, I always condemned communism, national-socialism and fascism. Incidentally, I define all of them as leftist movements that were spawned by the French Revolution. The only reason that our movement was pegged with the extremist label is because of our loyalty to the principle of `French Algeria' and our opposition to the policy of separation from Algeria, which De Gaulle instituted.

"There was no reason to label us as anti-Semitic. No reason at all. I do not know one person in the National Front who committed even the most minor hostile act against a Jewish person or Jewish property. As for me, even though I have been accused of anti-Semitism countless times, no one has ever heard me make anti-Semitic statements or engage in anti-Semitic behavior. There just are people, organizations, that need an adversary and they want the public to believe that this adversary is dangerous."

"I think that it is the Americans, more than Israel, who wish to keep France from playing a role in the Middle East. In my judgement, there is a basic popular sympathy for Israel in France, but the demonstrative sympathy tends to go to the other side. In the current conflict, the French media is pro-Arab for two reasons: The large Arab and Islamic presence in France combined with the weight of the billion Muslims in the world, and the fact that Sharon is a rightist. The hostility would be less if a leftist prime minister was pursuing exactly the same policy."

"I'm talking about the government and the French intelligentsia, too. The government would have preferred not to take a stand, but the constant presence of the Israeli-Arab conflict on our television screens made it an issue that could no longer be avoided. The result is that you are now experiencing what we experienced in the war in Algeria: The Israeli government says that it is a victim of terrorist activity, but this activity is less visible than the military strikes. I belonged to the 10th paratroop division that was ordered to destroy the terror in Algiers. This was after a series of terror attacks against civilians in public centers. The division did wipe out terror, and it didn't do this by being gentle with the terrorists. A war on terror is a brutal thing."

"All the efforts at mediation are not effective. I wonder if international influences might be harmful to negotiations, if they aren't pouring fuel on the fire. There is a need for a direct understanding between Israel and the Palestinians. I recognize that it is an exceedingly difficult situation: Israel feels threatened, because it does not have strategic depth. At the same time, its settlement policy is in doubt. The settlements are perceived as an attempt to annex occupied territory. To be honest, I wouldn't want to be in Mr. Sharon's place - and even less in Mr. Arafat's place (he bursts into laughter). It's a terrible situation. Even when they are supported by the West, the Israelis are still just several million versus a billion Muslims. Fortunately, there will never be Islamic unity. They're all different from one another and hostile to each other, thank God.

"As a former officer in the Foreign Legion, I think that discipline is an army's main source of strength. What's happening [in Israel] is very serious. As soon as the Israeli people ceases to stand behind the Israeli army, the battle is lost."

"Certainly. After all, I got a similar reaction during the war in Algeria, when I served in General Massu's 10th division. We were called upon to fight the terrorism of the FLN (the Algerian nationalist movement that fought against French colonialism). The intelligentsia at home criticized our actions. It's very easy to criticize from the armchair in the living room. I completely understand the State of Israel, which is seeking to defend its citizens."


The Dreyfus Affair - "Dreyfus was exonerated and that concluded the affair. We should remember that among those who sided with Dreyfus at the time were people from the right, and that some from the left were among his opponents." Auschwitz - "A concentration camp that symbolizes the persecution of the Jews."

The gas chambers - "A method of extermination that also became a symbol of that persecution."

Israel - "An extraordinary challenge in the world history of a people that is trying to reconquer its homeland."

Zionism - "The movement that transformed the persistent aspiration of the Jewish people in exile into a practical theory, and realized it."

. If you have to resort to one Holocaust survivor out of thousands voting for Le Pen to prove he's not a Nazi, you have a problem.


He's still not a Holocaust denier because he did not actually deny the Holocaust.

Not denying the holocaust makes one not-a-holocaust-denier.

Yes, but this was not for 'denying' the Holocaust so much as 'downplaying it's significance'. That's completely different.



That's from Wikipedia.

Guess what?

I'm Jewish, Israeli, and I agree with this.

The Holocaust is not a unique event in human history or even in the history of WWII.

Teaching it as somehow unique and world-changing an event is extremely detrimental.

in fact I think it is unique in that it was the first time one group of people tried to systematically wipe out what they thought were "undermenschen(?)" in such a methodical way. that said, it may not be THE worst thing humans have ever done, and yet it is in no way a "detail"...

He's still not a Holocaust denier because he did not actually deny the Holocaust.

Not denying the holocaust makes one not-a-holocaust-denier.

I never claimed that he definitely was. Like I said, it's still highly suspicious, though, when you combine it with rhetoric about the Great Jewish Conspiracy.

Thanks very much Allanea!

Best Regards

Sorry Londim, you are being so oppressed that you don't even kow you are being kept down. It's time to rise up against the evil imperialism, kick out immigrants and start living the true utopian dream of a Christian state.

Correct but except for the 'kick out immigrants part'! As long as they are not illegal and assimilate into Western society, they can be good citizens regardless of race or religion! Mr Le Pen actually said to immigrants

I invite you to join us! As long as you respect our customs and our laws; as long as you only try to get ahead in this country by working, we are prepared… to add you to the melting pot of the nation and of the republic, with the same rights but also the same responsibilities

Correct but except for the 'kick out immigrants part'! As long as they are not illegal and assimilate into Western society, they can be good citizens regardless of race or religion! Mr Le Pen actually said to immigrants

lol wut? (http://www.irr.org.uk/europebulletin/france/extreme_right_politics/1995/ak000006.html)

Le Pen promised to create a blueprint for a Sixth Republic to succeed 'decades of political decay', prioritising the expulsion of 3 million immigrants, at a rate of 1200 per day over Le Pen's seven year presidency. Immigrants, promised Le Pen, would be excluded from welfare benefits, and priority for government housing would be given to the French.

Hang on there...

He's a politician so what he says in public may not totally be in accordance with his actual beliefs - like any politician he needs craft what he says in order to ensure he gains the maximum of support.

Let's have a look at his designated successor..

"There is not a serious historian alive today who adheres completely to the conclusions of the Nuremberg trials," Mr Gollnisch, a Euro MP and Mr Le Pen’s designated successor, said at a press conference in Lyons on Monday.

"I do not call into question the existence of the concentration camps, but as to the number of dead, historians can still have something to argue about. As to the existence of the gas chambers, that is up to the historians to determine," he added.

...and even Le Pen's own words...

Speaking on the French radio station Europe 1 in 1987, Mr Le Pen declared: "I am not saying that the gas chambers did not exist. I did not have the possibility to see them personally. I haven't especially studied the question. But I believe it is a detail in the history of the Second World War."

Hasn't studied the question? Bullshit! His words indicate his beliefs.

No one know who is FN succesor until November this year, but hopefully it will be Miss Marine Le Pen! You will never catch her saying anything bad!

And on Le Pen's thing for 'French', it is 'National prefernece', which extend to all Frenchmen regardless of their race or religion over people without French citizenship! Which mean that an Frenchman of Arab origin has preference over a European immigrant!

If the EU was actually Fascist, in the frame of the real Fascists of the early 1920s and 1930s - such as the Fascisti and the Falange Espanola - then it'd be a more interesting place.

Certainly the wealth gap between rich and poor would be much smaller, quality of life would be better overall, and discrimination would be confined to those who disagreed with the Party's aims. :p

Lots of people don't know, or don't want to know, that original Fascism wasn't racist. It's arguably not even sexist, and certainly wasn't religiousist. Of course, other fascist and nationalist movements and parties and the national socialist party have introduced these ideas.

Still, Fascism as movement is often incredibly radical. Fascism as government... well, there hasn't ever been a truly Fascist government.

rhetoric about the Great Jewish Conspiracy.

Really? Let Mr Le Pen speak for himself! Here is exceprts from an interview!

"There has definitely been a rise in anti-Semitism and anti-Semitic acts in the past year and a half," he says. "Curses and graffiti have given way to attacks and incitement. It's all an outgrowth of what's happening in the Middle East now. The height of the flames depends on how the conflict develops, on the parties' readiness to reach a compromise."

"I have no idea what `classic anti-Semitism' is. I'm not familiar with this term. I don't know where it comes from and what connection it has to France and what is occurring here. There wasn't anti-Semitism in France. An isolated incident can always happen. When two drivers curse each other on the road, and one of them happens to be a Jew, you can't define that as anti-Semitism. In recent years - before the intifada - there were three or four incidents of anti-Semitism a year, and that's out of 18 million crimes and violations of the law."

"I have no idea what `classic anti-Semitism' is. I'm not familiar with this term. I don't know where it comes from and what connection it has to France and what is occurring here. There wasn't anti-Semitism in France. An isolated incident can always happen. When two drivers curse each other on the road, and one of them happens to be a Jew, you can't define that as anti-Semitism. In recent years - before the intifada - there were three or four incidents of anti-Semitism a year, and that's out of 18 million crimes and violations of the law."

"The Dreyfus Affair is an exceptional case. It's true that here and there you can find some dregs of anti-Semitism, but the situation is the same in every country. After all, you're not exactly a nation like all the other nations. You are unique, if only because you are such an ancient people, and because of the way you are spread all over the world and your obvious success in many fields. But, in all honesty, anti-Semitism in France has always remained on a minimal level, at the verbal level only. It never went as far as pogroms."

"I don't think it is accurate to say that the movement was founded or run by Nazi collaborators. First of all, my influence in the party has always been decisive and I have never compromised on these things. In the movement itself, there was no mention of fascism or national-socialism. In my speeches, I always condemned communism, national-socialism and fascism. Incidentally, I define all of them as leftist movements that were spawned by the French Revolution. The only reason that our movement was pegged with the extremist label is because of our loyalty to the principle of `French Algeria' and our opposition to the policy of separation from Algeria, which De Gaulle instituted.

"There was no reason to label us as anti-Semitic. No reason at all. I do not know one person in the National Front who committed even the most minor hostile act against a Jewish person or Jewish property. As for me, even though I have been accused of anti-Semitism countless times, no one has ever heard me make anti-Semitic statements or engage in anti-Semitic behavior. There just are people, organizations, that need an adversary and they want the public to believe that this adversary is dangerous."

"I think that it is the Americans, more than Israel, who wish to keep France from playing a role in the Middle East. In my judgement, there is a basic popular sympathy for Israel in France, but the demonstrative sympathy tends to go to the other side. In the current conflict, the French media is pro-Arab for two reasons: The large Arab and Islamic presence in France combined with the weight of the billion Muslims in the world, and the fact that Sharon is a rightist. The hostility would be less if a leftist prime minister was pursuing exactly the same policy."

"I'm talking about the government and the French intelligentsia, too. The government would have preferred not to take a stand, but the constant presence of the Israeli-Arab conflict on our television screens made it an issue that could no longer be avoided. The result is that you are now experiencing what we experienced in the war in Algeria: The Israeli government says that it is a victim of terrorist activity, but this activity is less visible than the military strikes. I belonged to the 10th paratroop division that was ordered to destroy the terror in Algiers. This was after a series of terror attacks against civilians in public centers. The division did wipe out terror, and it didn't do this by being gentle with the terrorists. A war on terror is a brutal thing."

"All the efforts at mediation are not effective. I wonder if international influences might be harmful to negotiations, if they aren't pouring fuel on the fire. There is a need for a direct understanding between Israel and the Palestinians. I recognize that it is an exceedingly difficult situation: Israel feels threatened, because it does not have strategic depth. At the same time, its settlement policy is in doubt. The settlements are perceived as an attempt to annex occupied territory. To be honest, I wouldn't want to be in Mr. Sharon's place - and even less in Mr. Arafat's place (he bursts into laughter). It's a terrible situation. Even when they are supported by the West, the Israelis are still just several million versus a billion Muslims. Fortunately, there will never be Islamic unity. They're all different from one another and hostile to each other, thank God.

"As a former officer in the Foreign Legion, I think that discipline is an army's main source of strength. What's happening [in Israel] is very serious. As soon as the Israeli people ceases to stand behind the Israeli army, the battle is lost."

"Certainly. After all, I got a similar reaction during the war in Algeria, when I served in General Massu's 10th division. We were called upon to fight the terrorism of the FLN (the Algerian nationalist movement that fought against French colonialism). The intelligentsia at home criticized our actions. It's very easy to criticize from the armchair in the living room. I completely understand the State of Israel, which is seeking to defend its citizens."


The Dreyfus Affair - "Dreyfus was exonerated and that concluded the affair. We should remember that among those who sided with Dreyfus at the time were people from the right, and that some from the left were among his opponents." Auschwitz - "A concentration camp that symbolizes the persecution of the Jews."

The gas chambers - "A method of extermination that also became a symbol of that persecution."

Israel - "An extraordinary challenge in the world history of a people that is trying to reconquer its homeland."

Zionism - "The movement that transformed the persistent aspiration of the Jewish people in exile into a practical theory, and realized it."

in fact I think it is unique in that it was the first time one group of people tried to systematically wipe out what they thought were "undermenschen(?)" in such a methodical way. that said, it may not be THE worst thing humans have ever done, and yet it is in no way a "detail"...


Apart from the mass-murders of Stalin that were going on at the same time (some of them ethnically based), the Armenian genocides, other genocides throughout world history.

It is estimated 220 million people died in various death camps, killing fields, and such throughout the 20th century alone. This is not counting wars. The Jews were not even a majority in the Nazi camps - approximately 13 million people have died there.

The youngest Front National regional councilor, Stephane Durbec.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5057/headerea5.jpg

Huguette Fatna, an Martinique immigrant to France, the Front National councilor of d'Ile-de.

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/2279/huguettefatnasy8.jpg

Madamosille Fatna with Bruno Gollnisch, a high ranking FN official. He made an objectionable and foolish remark which state - 'I do not question the existence of concentration camps but historians could discuss the number of deaths. As to the existence of gas chambers, it is up to historians to speak their minds.' He was rightfully criticized by Marine Le Pen. However, when asked at his trial by the judge whether 'the "organized extermination of European Jews by the Nazi regime constitutes an undeniable crime against humanity, and that it has been carried out notably by using gas chamber in extermination camps.", he replied "absolutely."

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6553/img0125xa1.jpg

Madamosille Fatna at an FN rally.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/281/018xq3.jpg

Farid Smahi, the son of Algerian immigrants, a victim of anti-immigrant discrimination and an original leftist, now the Front National deputy councilor municipal of Paris. He poses with Jean-Marie Le Pen on 8 January 2007 at St. Cloud after the addressing of new year's greetings to the press. He said -

There is no contradiction in being Arab or black or any other minority and voting Le Pen. French minorities and banlieue residents see they've been manipulated and exploited by both the hypocritical left and sham right for years now. Nothing has changed except the racism. So this time around, expect a lot of people to be casting votes for Le Pen in the hopes that, at last, things may change.

What initially appealed to me was hearing the National Front message that if I accepted the responsibilities of citizenship, I'd have the right of national preference in return. That means we halt immigration until we can provide for people already here, and reserve the wealth and jobs of the nation first for citizens. That message means a lot in projects where unemployment is nearly 50%, and many French residents can't get work.

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/6176/postcardparis0306ic0.jpg

Monsieur Smahi accompanying Jean-Marie Le Pen during his visit to the immigrant slum suburbs of Argentuil on 6 April 2007.. He told the Frenchmen of Arab origin that "You are the branches of the tree that is France. You are full-fledged Frenchmen." Here is some footage of the visit. http://youtube.com/watch?v=JMjIOp2oomU

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/7473/949662185va7.jpg

[i]Jean-Pierre Cohen, a Jewish member of the Front National, who co-wrote 'Ni raciste, ni antisemite', which translates to 'Neither racist, nor anti-semitic', a FN pamphlet published by the FN in October 1997. He is eating at an FN party, or dinner, and is the one with glasses closest to the camera.

In Jean-Marie Le Pen's foolish statement about the Death Camps, what is not said is that 60 seconds after he also said that there were "millions of Jewish deaths and also of people who were not Jews." Jean-Marie Le Pen has condemned anti-semitic violence in France. The National Support Committee for Jean-Marie Le Pen's candidature consists of Frenchmen/women from all walks of life who have made their mark in French life, including survivors of Nazi death camps, as well as the black FN councilors.

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/3013/parisfev055op4.jpg

Jean-Marie Le Pen pays his respects at the World War I Chinese cemetery for the fallen Chinese Labour Corps personnel in Noyelles-sur-Mer on 8 February 2007. Study carefully in what national characters are the gravestones inscribed with, and what type of cultural respect to the dead Jean-Marie is doing.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/6190/lepenchinesecemeterywl6.jpg

An interesting video - http://youtube.com/watch?v=gcv0PgdFEbE

Western society

erm...what is this western society of which you speak? aren't symbols of French culture usually involve cigarettes and onions (rough stereotype as that may be)

Germany is a leading member of the EU. Germany leading the EU would be Nazi Germany leading Europe in WWII! Merkel is the new Hitler, and Le Pen, etc are the new Graf Galens and Niemollers!

Here are the little politically correct Hitlers of the EU.

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/4736/picschroderve0.jpg

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/2473/merkelul7.jpg

NO EU CONSTITUTION!

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/4458/jeanmarielepenou7.jpg

Unidentified scene.

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/7820/jeanmarielepenvpj6.jpg

Joan of Arc celebration, May 1st 2006.

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/1205/1ermai23ct.jpg

Another scene from Argentuil.

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/5139/jeanmarielepenvifw5.jpg

Farid Smahi's son with Marine Le Pen.

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6399/marinelepenxviis8.jpg

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kWKlJ_B01aM

True Fascists of the New Europe

Patrick J. Buchanan

April 30 2002

.

Is this your standard trolling piece for the last 4 years? Jesus christ man, up date.

Correct but except for the 'kick out immigrants part'! As long as they are not illegal and assimilate into Western society, they can be good citizens regardless of race or religion! Mr Le Pen actually said to immigrants

Except that when I say it, I am being sarcastic while you are being serious.

Who said anything about assimilating into western culture. Cultures can co-exist. So long as thier culture is within the law (no beheading, people!) they can keep thier culture.

Okay, now I am against the EU, but we don't have to spam this with Le Pen pics.

snip

"Jean-Marie Le Pen TALKS TO A BLACK PERSON, triumphs over allegations of racism."

SNIP of stupidly long post probably copy and paste job

erm...having a few minorities in the club is what the extreme right wing has been doing since BNP decided to have a Muslim in to show how nice they are to immigrants so long as hey accept British (:rolleyes:) customs and ideas

erm...having a few minorities in the club is what the extreme right wing has been doing since BNP decided to have a Muslim in to show how nice they are to immigrants so long as hey accept British (:rolleyes:) customs and ideas

Are you implying I'm a French anti-Jewish racist?

I know where BNP is coming from, but I don't support them because they don't accept Britons of all color! That was only one person, and that person was mixed, while there are over 3500 Arab and Black memebrs of Front National, and many are in high positions!

"Jean-Marie Le Pen TALKS TO A BLACK PERSON, triumphs over allegations of racism."
The BNP had an Asian guy stand in a local council election once, I believe. Does that make them any less a gang of racist pricks? No, it doesn't. Why? Because these people (or their leadership) know that outright racism doesn't fly with most Brits, and thus they adopt a more...subtle tactic to get votes.

Are you implying I'm a French anti-Jewish racist?

I don't think he/she is - I think he/she is merely pointing out the fallacious machinations of politics. Using token puppets is a long established practice employed by those who wish to deflect particular points of criticism.

Using token puppets by old trolls is another, more simplistic version.

Nothing personal against you I think - your points were all quite reasonable.

Sorry, but FN has many Frenchmen of Arab and Black origin standing for elections, compared with one for BNP! And not all BNP members is racist, although many are, and many are stupid racists! Griffin is clown, but at least he steered BNP from really crazy people like Tydnall.

Are you implying I'm a French anti-Jewish racist?

*tilts head all the way round* uuuh?

I know where BNP is coming from, but I don't support them because they don't accept Britons of all color! That was only one person, and that person was mixed, while there are over 3500 Arab and Black memebrs of Front National, and many are in high positions!

so what your saying is you agree with the BNP's policy having non-white citizens on so long as they accept British culture?

Beer!

Beer!
:D

and Pretzels!

:D

and Pretzels!

You know it brotha'!

*tilts head all the way round* uuuh?





You seemd to imply people who supported JMLP's views were racist.

Sorry, but FN has many Frenchmen of Arab and Black origin

oooh how progressive course prejudice doesn't stop with skin colour, I'd like to see how poor immigrants who have committed no other crime than being born in a different country or practicing traditions see it

And not all BNP members is racist

you seem rather vacant when it comes to BNP policy don't you

so what your saying is you agree with the BNP's policy having non-white citizens on so long as they accept British culture?

Yes, nothing racist in that! Although it not official BNP policy! Some BNP member try to introduce that, but unfortunately some other racist stupid BNP members stopped it!

Yes, nothing racist in that! Although it not official BNP policy! Some BNP member try to introduce that, but unfortunately some other racist stupid BNP members stopped it!

So saying 'white culture is superior to others' is not racist?

In fact, I expect I'm going to get a 'No!' and that will be the end of it. Let me rephrase that.

Saying 'white culture is superior to others' is racist.

So saying 'white culture is superior to others' is not racist?

And saying "no culture is superior to another" is not stupid? :)

Note there's no 'white' culture, but rather 'Western Culture', which is, these days, practiced by people of all races.

Exactly! Western Culture as in Christianity and Judiasm can be practise by people of all color, but immigrants must accept the culture! And you are going to attack me for saying Christianity is good, but then why don't you attack radical who is saying Islam is superior? You are liberal who selectively quote! How many picture of Arafat you have exactly, huh?

Exactly! Western Culture as in Christianity and Judiasm can be practise by people of all color, but immigrants must accept the culture! And you are going to attack me for saying Christianity is good, but then why don't you attack radical who is saying Islam is superior? You are liberal who selectively quote! How many picture of Arafat you have exactly, huh?

*blinks*

*escapes the thread in horror*

Exactly! Western Culture as in Christianity and Judiasm can be practise by people of all color, but immigrants must accept the culture! And you are going to attack me for saying Christianity is good, but then why don't you attack radical who is saying Islam is superior? You are liberal who selectively quote! How many picture of Arafat you have exactly, huh?

So why aren't the other European cultures equally venerated by Le Pen and the BNP?

It's been a long time since I heard one of them calling for us to live more like the Poles, an example of another Western culture based on Judeo-Christianity.

You seemd to imply people who supported JMLP's views were racist.

oh okay then, yes you are a filthy racist more importantly you are Xenophobic terrified that any other culture than your own (what culture this is I have no idea)

course nevermind that in the real world nationalist parties don't even bother campaigning in multi-cultural areas because the people actually come onto contact with people who have such small differences to them

Yes, nothing racist in that!

1) Xenophobia is a big word
2) there is no culture to protect and the idea that any culture is isolated and unique is extreme hogwash

Allanea, I'm talking to Hamilay, not you!

Exactly! Western Culture as in Christianity and Judiasm can be practise by people of all color, but immigrants must accept the culture! And you are going to attack me for saying Christianity is good, but then why don't you attack radical who is saying Islam is superior? You are liberal who selectively quote! How many picture of Arafat you have exactly, huh?

'Accept' as in accept that people practice it? Certainly.

'Accept' as in practice in themselves? Certainly not.

I don't attack radicals saying Islam is superior because I haven't seen any radicals saying Islam is superior on this thread.

I know what you mean, Allanea, but it's clear JMLP is claiming western culture is superior to all others.

... oh, and... why Arafat? :confused:

Allanea, I'm talking to Hamilay, not you!

You fail to understand that Allanea was defending him/herself as opposed to the quite different matter of supporting you.

Your sense of superiority is astounding.

'
I know what you mean, Allanea, but it's clear JMLP is claiming western culture is superior to all others.

That seems a reasonable opinion to me. However I feel I do not wish to participate in the thread any more for obvious reasons.

Note there's no 'white' culture, but rather 'Western Culture', which is, these days, practiced by people of all races.

what Tea and umbrellas? banking and freedom?

you are going to attack me for saying Christianity is good

yes

why don't you attack radical who is saying Islam is superior?

"liberals" or more importantly moderate Muslims do, however radical Islam =/= Islam, course I will avoid pointing out that the Koran and the bible are very much the same book

And saying "no culture is superior to another" is not stupid? :)

Note there's no 'white' culture, but rather 'Western Culture', which is, these days, practiced by people of all races.

You know, there's a large following in philosophy that disagree with you. Moral Relativity has been debated for a long time and still will be in 500 years.

So, with confidence, I say that yes, no culture is superior to another.

Exactly! Western Culture as in Christianity and Judiasm can be practise by people of all color, but immigrants must accept the culture! And you are going to attack me for saying Christianity is good,
Christianity has been bad for many people throughout history. So saying that Christianity is good needs a few "but" and "if"s.

but then why don't you attack radical who is saying Islam is superior?
We do. We attack their argument and kill their opinions as thoroughly as yours.

You are liberal
and proud of it!

who selectively quote! How many picture of Arafat you have exactly, huh?
What has that got to do with anything? "oh, he has an Arafat picture. He must be evil." Clearly your sense of deduction are wasted on us. Go! go! for the good of the city.

You know, there's a large following in philosophy that disagree with you. Moral Relativity has been debated for a long time and still will be in 500 years.

So, with confidence, I say that yes, no culture is superior to another.

This may be the most cliche-filled post I've ever written. Sorry.

Personally, I think it depends how you define culture. Of course you may disagree with me, but I'd say that if the Western culture is defined by values of freedom, democracy and equality (I cringed when I wrote that. Yes, I know most nations don't practice what they preach, no need to get into that here) then it's superior to cultures which don't appreciate those, such as radical Islam (cringes once more) in regards to stoning for adultery and the like. Not moderate Islam, of course, which is perfectly fine. We can probably all agree that freedom is good, and that countries with more freedom are generally better than countries with less, so I don't believe a culture that doesn't value these sorts of things is equal. Of course there may be moral relativism, but relative to my morals I say that certain cultures are inferior. If you judge cultures by what they value. Now, if you define culture as being the smaller things, like language, food, traditions and religion (as long as the religion isn't the WBC or the like) then one can safely say no culture is superior.

*waits to get flamed*

[/off non-existent topic]

Hmm, where to begin!

Cannot Americans, who would never give up our dollar and who reject the new International Criminal Court, understand?

We Americans, too, would be rebellious toward any supranational political body that dared to dictate an end to capital punishment in the United States.

Ahh, this was written by a non-European fascist, I see. So that's why there's so very little understanding known.

On the Index of Forbidden Issues are any restrictions on Third World immigration, the deportation of illegal aliens, statements critical of minorities and any return of sovereign power once ceded to the EU. Though the death penalty may be favored by majorities in European nations, capital punishment is to be outlawed forever. It is outside the restricted range of issues that the people may henceforth decide.

You have no idea how much these issues have been done to death and how blastingly difficult it already is to immigrate even within Europe, despite the EU.

Well isn't this a treat! First we get that NPD guy, now this! Perhaps we should arrange a meeting for the two so they can fellate each other and get it over with.

'Accept' as in accept that people practice it? Certainly.

'Accept' as in practice in themselves? Certainly not.

I don't attack radicals saying Islam is superior because I haven't seen any radicals saying Islam is superior on this thread.
Never met Soviestan?

You know, there's a large following in philosophy that disagree with you. Moral Relativity has been debated for a long time and still will be in 500 years.
Moral relativism states that morals are a particular product of a society and thus one culture cannot judge another for this reason. It is not tolerance. It is a flawed view of morality. Of course, it completely fails to address the fact that views within a culture may differ and ends up reducing morality to "whatever my society approves of". The number of people deluded by this philosophy is problematic.

True Fascists of the New Europe
Patrick J. Buchanan

aka True Idiot of Old America...


When fascism comes to America, said Huey Long, it will come in the guise of anti-fascism. And since Vietnam, it has been so.

Oh yeah. Calling for peace is typical of fascism, right?
So, if fascism has the guise of anti-fascism, whatever looks fascist isn't really fascist, Mr.Buchanan means. So, nevermind losing your personal freedom to the Patriot Act, it looks fascist so we're sure it isn't.
Doublethink plusgood.:rolleyes:


Brownshirt tactics ? shouting down speakers, disrupting opposition rallies, demonstrations that degenerate into riots ? have all been used repeatedly by self-described fighters against racism and fascism. And invariably, these crimes against decency and democracy have been ignored or condoned by those who share the left's revulsion of the right.
Maybe police brutality and agent provocateurs (G8, Genova 2001) have also played a part. Like italian prison guards forcing the arrested to sing fascist hymns ("Faccetta Nera" etc), or US troops entering the black ghettos with tanks in the Battle of LA, aka Rodney King riots.
And anyway, is "shouting down a speaker" is just a typical fascist behaviour? I'd suggest to look at what the catholic youth movement "Comunione e Liberazione" does in the italian universities whenever someone of the centre-left coalition tries to speak.


No sooner had the returns come in, eliminating socialist Premier Lionel Jospin from the run-off, than mobs were in the streets. French President Jacques Chirac, who had won fewer than one in five votes, swiftly embraced Trotskyite and Communist support in the second round, but refused to debate Le Pen. In the European Parliament, Le Pen was shouted down. Protesters threatened to disrupt his press conference, forcing its cancellation.

Though Le Pen has made radical and foolish statements, there is no evidence he is a Nazi. His hero is not Hitler but Joan of Arc, and he and his National Front have accepted defeat in every election they have lost. No, Le Pen is hated and feared not just for who he is, but for the issues he has raised. And what are those issues?

Mr.Buchanan doesn't have a clue about Le Pen. His "Front National" is the heir of the Pétain's Nationalistic France ruling party.

And... AAHHH! Chirac is a commie dictator! Commies! COMMIEEES!!!:rolleyes:


He wants France to opt out of the euro bloc, as the British have done, and to restore the franc as France's national currency. He is calling for a national referendum on whether France should reclaim sovereign powers it has surrendered to the European Union. Cannot Americans, who would never give up our dollar and who reject the new International Criminal Court, understand?

Yes, the Americans can understand that. That's why they are Americans and the French are Europeans.
Also, the US don't join the ICC because they would be forbidden (and possibily prosecuted for) enlisting underage people in the military.;)



Le Pen opposed America's war in Kosovo. But so, too, did a majority of House Republicans. He denounces what the Israelis are doing on the West Bank, but even President Bush wants Sharon out. He does not want a war on Iraq, but neither do any of our other allies. He wants a France forever independent of the United States. Cannot Americans, to whom independence is sacred, not understand how other nations might not wish to be part of an American Imperium?

So, excuse me, if Gerhard Schroeder and Jacques Chirac oppose the war in Iraq they're "cowards", but if Le Pen doesn't support the NATO (not "America's war") attack on Jugoslavija, he's a patriot?:confused:


Le Pen supports capital punishment and believes the French should be allowed to vote on its restoration, and not have the death penalty outlawed by the EU. We Americans, too, would be rebellious toward any supranational political body that dared to dictate an end to capital punishment in the United States.
Since it is the single States of the US who decide to adopt capital punishment or no, I'd say that the American already have a "supranational" aka federal body that dictates about capital punishment and a helluva lot of other things.


Crime is the issue driving voters into Le Pen's corner. He associates rising crime with rising Arab and Islamic immigration, and wants illegal aliens expelled. But Americans, too, want illegal immigration halted and gate-crashers sent back. And a rising share of our own prison population consists of illegal aliens, and our own president's proposed amnesty for illegal immigrants ignited a storm of protest across America, forcing the Republican Party to back off.
Ahh... time to bring the negro slaves back to Africa in chains, so America will be racially pure and aryan?:rolleyes:


As European elites deny Le Pen courtesies they routinely extend to Communists and Trotskyites, the message is clear: In the New Europe, some issues are closed forever. They have been decided, and no second thoughts will be entertained. While Trotskyites and Communists are welcome, the Populist Right and its ideas are pariahs. There is no room for them, or the people who advance them, in the New Europe.

Exactly. That's because of a small thing called WW2 that happened about 65 years ago. The communists fought on the side of the free countries and of the oppressed people. The populist right were represented by Hitler, Mussolini, Pétain, Quisling, Pavelic'... and don't you forget Franco and Salazar.


On the Index of Forbidden Issues are any restrictions on Third World immigration,
False.
the deportation of illegal aliens,
False.
statements critical of minorities
We know what happens when people start saying "it's the jews' fault, they're different, they aren't properly human".

and any return of sovereign power once ceded to the EU.
False. And ridiculous, coming from the country who went into a civil war to prevent some of its territory to use the right to secede (USA vs CSA).


Though the death penalty may be favored by majorities in European nations, capital punishment is to be outlawed forever. It is outside the restricted range of issues that the people may henceforth decide.

Yes. Since the people (through its legitimate representatives) has decided that, it is so. Love it or leave it.


As it is often the criminal himself who is first to cry, "Thief!" so it is usually those who scream, "Fascist!" loudest who are the quickest to resort to anti-democratic tactics.

So, I guess that Mr.Bush is a member of Al-Quaeda because he screams "Taliban!" a lot. Also, Mr.Reagan was clearly a communist because he said "Commies!" a lot.


Today, the greatest threat to the freedom and independence of the nations of Europe comes not from Le Pen and that 17 percent of French men and women who voted for him. It comes from an intolerant European Establishment that will accept no rollback of its powers or privileges, nor any reversal of policies it deems "progressive."

Uh? Has Mr.Buchanan ever heard of a thing called "in democracy, majority rules"? I guess it is a new concept for him. The "European Establishment" is regularly and democratically voted in every 5 years by all the citizens of Europe, 1 head 1 vote. Very unlike America, where Gore gets more votes but Bush wins.


As the New Europe taking shape is the prototype of the World Government to come, Americans should take note. Let us hope that Sunday, French voters will deliver that New Europe a good right cross to the head.

Ha-ha! The terrible SuperEurope boogeyman! OMG the fascist eurocommies want to rule the world!
Hail Le Pen, save us!:rolleyes:

Pitiful. Paranoid. Preposterous.

And a bit insulting to the young americans who died in Europe fighting fascism... sorry, Populist Right.

I hope this guy's opinion isn't followed by many people.

This may be the most cliche-filled post I've ever written. Sorry.
So much cliche that it'S not even funny. Actually, when it comes to philosophy, you are bound to use the same arguments.

Personally, I think it depends how you define culture. Of course you may disagree with me, but I'd say that if the Western culture is defined by values of freedom, democracy and equality (I cringed when I wrote that. Yes, I know most nations don't practice what they preach, no need to get into that here) then it's superior to cultures which don't appreciate those, such as radical Islam (cringes once more) in regards to stoning for adultery and the like. Not moderate Islam, of course, which is perfectly fine. We can probably all agree that freedom is good, and that countries with more freedom are generally better than countries with less, so I don't believe a culture that doesn't value these sorts of things is equal. Of course there may be moral relativism, but relative to my morals I say that certain cultures are inferior. If you judge cultures by what they value. Now, if you define culture as being the smaller things, like language, food, traditions and religion (as long as the religion isn't the WBC or the like) then one can safely say no culture is superior.

*waits to get flamed*

[/off non-existent topic]

You base your value of a culture on your morals. It's all fine and dandy but if you were born in, say, North Korea, your values would have been far different. Therefore, we cannot say that freedom, pursuit of happiness are inherently better than following orders or conformity.

Now sure, killing is barbaric from our point of view and I cringe for what I am about to say but what if we have it wrong and that the after-life in an Islamic paradise is more important than mere life. After all, most monotheistic religions tells you that it's not what you live is that is important but what you'll live next.

So who's to say who is right and who is wrong? You can't judge based on your own standard since they are rooted in your culture. The only way to judge which is better is to have a 30 year old who lived alone all his life to judge all cultures in an objective light. That ain't gonna happen so we have to say, for now, that one culture is as valid as any other.

Now if you excuse me, I need to take a shower because I don't really like being associated with North Korea, Radical Islam or Killing.

So who's to say who is right and who is wrong? You can't judge based on your own standard since they are rooted in your culture. The only way to judge which is better is to have a 30 year old who lived alone all his life to judge all cultures in an objective light. That ain't gonna happen so we have to say, for now, that one culture is as valid as any other.
So there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the Holocaust? I mean, it was rooted in Nazi culture. Who are we to judge?

Exactly! Western Culture as in Christianity and Judiasm can be practise by people of all color, but immigrants must accept the culture! And you are going to attack me for saying Christianity is good, but then why don't you attack radical who is saying Islam is superior? You are liberal who selectively quote! How many picture of Arafat you have exactly, huh?

Western culture as in Roman gods and orgies, Greek gods (and more orgies), mixed in with some imported Egyptian gods (through the Greek and Romans), blended together with the celtic deities and the nordic mythology... hmm, and many more!

Wow, so christian.

Also, how do you know he doesn't attack radicals who claim islam as superior? They're ain't any people in this thread here doing it, so obviously he ain't doing it here!

So there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the Holocaust? I mean, it was rooted in Nazi culture. Who are we to judge?

Even Nazism was against killing. They merely stated that Jews, Gays, Gypsies and the like were inferior. The nazi mentality never was about killing until it went radical.

But then an extremist in any culture will usually support killing the "other", be it Jews, infidel, witches or whatnot.

See crusades, jyhad for examples. Extremism in a culture is what is bad.

Even Nazism was against killing. They merely stated that Jews, Gays, Gypsies and the like were inferior. The nazi mentality never was about killing until it went radical.

But then an extremist in any culture will usually support killing the "other", be it Jews, infidel, witches or whatnot.

See crusades, jyhad for examples. Extremism in a culture is what is bad.
The extremists gained the support of the masses. If you condemn extremism (by what right? aren't morals particular to a culture?), then surely you must condemn countries like Saudi Arabia or North Korea?

Another question - what if all the extremists seceded to form "their" culture? Would it now also be equally valid to all others?


Uh? Has Mr.Buchanan ever heard of a thing called "in democracy, majority rules"? I guess it is a new concept for him. The "European Establishment" is regularly and democratically voted in every 5 years by all the citizens of Europe, 1 head 1 vote. Very unlike America, where Gore gets more votes but Bush wins.
Yes, we get to elect them and they get to ignore us for all the years they're in power.

True Fascists of the New Europe

Patrick J. Buchanan

April 30 2002

...2002? Have we really run out of things to make threads about then?

Never met Soviestan?

Not in this thread and I am sure most people dislike him quite adamantly. Surprisingly, he seems to have a lot in common with some of the republicans, from what I've seen (Corneliu agreeing with him comes to mind).

Not in this thread and I am sure most people dislike him quite adamantly. Surprisingly, he seems to have a lot in common with some of the republicans, from what I've seen (Corneliu agreeing with him comes to mind).
They have much in common in that when their faith is questioned they merely recite whatever delightful prose their book of choice contains (even when it's justifying things such as punishing an unfaithful woman).

They have much in common in that when their faith is question they merely recite whatever delightful prose their book of choice contains (even when it's justifying things such as punishing an unfaithful woman).

Or start asking for sources and claiming magick god-books are equivalent to legitimate sources.

Or start asking for sources and claiming magick god-books are equivalent to legitimate sources.
Damn, you quoted me before I got a chance to correct my post. :p

Damn, you quoted me before I got a chance to correct my post. :p

I'm in your threadz, quoting your posts! :p

The extremists gained the support of the masses. If you condemn extremism (by what right? aren't morals particular to a culture?), then surely you must condemn countries like Saudi Arabia or North Korea?
And I do condemn them. I find extremists in any culture to be a problem.

Also, I am fully aware that my views are colored by my own culture. So yes, I might have a different opinion if I was born and raised in Saudi Arabia. I might have been in favour of the holocaust was I born in a different time and place. As much as I hate seeing myself chanting "Hail Hitler!" I might have been one.

Another question - what if all the extremists seceded to form "their" culture? Would it now also be equally valid to all others?
Depends on the definition of culture I guess.

Yes, we get to elect them and they get to ignore us for all the years they're in power.

Ok, but it is our fault if we re-elect them next time, isn't it? We should keep them under heavier pressure, as we do with our national MPs.
And, by the way, I usually check the work of a MEP (Umberto Guidoni, from Italy). He's doing pretty good for a MEP - we know that the EP doesn't have very much power, sadly.
I've talked with him a couple of times, and he's quite keen about hearing what his electors ask from him.

And I do condemn them. I find extremists in any culture to be a problem.

Also, I am fully aware that my views are colored by my own culture. So yes, I might have a different opinion if I was born and raised in Saudi Arabia. I might have been in favour of the holocaust was I born in a different time and place. As much as I hate seeing myself chanting "Hail Hitler!" I might have been one.
The problem I have with this view is that it can justify anything from the Holocaust to slavery, simply because a majority happened to hold it. If anything it tells me that this majority failed to re-appraise its moral stances and aim for improvement. Simply belonging to a culture does not exempt one from criticism.

Depends on the definition of culture I guess.
Generally a way of life shared by a group of persons.

Ok, but it is our fault if we re-elect them next time, isn't it? We should keep them under heavier pressure, as we do with our national MPs.
And, by the way, I usually check the work of a MEP (Umberto Guidoni, from Italy). He's doing pretty good for a MEP - we know that the EP doesn't have very much power, sadly.
The problem with the EU as a whole as it currently stands is that it is structured so as to be as non-responsive to its citizenry as possible. It's more like a Republic in many ways. Certainly there are some MEPs who take issue with this, but as the system currently operates it is not much better than the USA. It's something that ought to be resolved if the EU is going to go on existing - that, and what exactly the union stands for. Many countries have differing visions as to why it exists.

He associates rising crime with rising Arab and Islamic immigration, and wants illegal aliens expelled. But Americans, too, want illegal immigration halted and gate-crashers sent back.

This is the core of this kind of argument... you make a spurious claim, draw a parallel to something it isn't really kin to... and then point out that some other people do that other thing too.

Add to which, of course, pointing out that some Americans are racist assholes, doesn't actually make a Frenchman less of a racist asshole, now does it?

No, no the EU is not fascist.

The suggestion that the EU is somehow fascist is really quite laughable. Ok, so it's not particularly democratic either, and hasn't been able to find an honest auditor to do it's accounts for the last 20 years - but that doesn't make it fascist.

The problem with the EU is that different nations want different things from it.
The French don't really care as long as their farmers continue to receive their current level of subsidies (over 50% of the Common Agricultural Policy program is paid out to the French).

However, most of the other members seem to think that the EU exists to prevent war between EU nations - which it might do, but somehow I doubt that was the original intention.

The UK (and other European nations who aren't yet member states) see the EU as a vast, inefficient bureacracy which sucks up money and produces little if any benefit. There is probably some truth to this. For example, the UK pays a great deal of money into the EU every year, despite not being a member, and we don't exactly get a great deal in return.

There are some Europhiles in the UK who seem to think that our economy will die unless we join properly and adopt the Euro. However, this is a flawed idea. The biggest single argument against this notion is the fact that Canada can thrive with an independent currency which floats freely against the US dollar on the stock exchange, despite being a part of NAFTA. This is relevant, because just about the only thing the EU is good for is being a trading bloc - call it the European Free Trade Area if you like.

The single currency is a silly idea though. Having a uniform interest rate for the whole EU is a policy doomed to failure - as it will intrinsically impoverish certain areas for the benefit of others. It's difficult enough with a uniform interest rate for the UK alone.

Coupled to this is the EU-wide restriction on government debt - national debts in the EU are not permitted to exceed 3% of GDP. This is a ludicrously small target, which is unrealistic for most countries - I would go as far as to say impossible. The only way this can be achieved is to hack viciously away at government spending - which might sound like a good idea in principle, but in practice will result in the destruction of the welfare state, and force privatisation of state-owned utilities (which historically hasn't had very nice consequences for the public).

The other effect of limiting government debt is that international bond markets (where government bonds are traded) will experience a shortage of supply. Like any commodity market, restriction of supply drives up the price. In this case, the price of government debt will be forced up, meaning an uncontrolled rise in interest rates, which central banks will be powerless to stop.

He has been convicted in a German Court for it - the EU removed his parliamentary privilege so the case could go ahead.Link-on Mercury ?

EU? Fascist? Certainly not...

Dangerously liberal capitalist? Yes.

Not so much...

There are some Europhiles in the UK who seem to think that our economy will die unless we join properly and adopt the Euro. However, this is a flawed idea. The biggest single argument against this notion is the fact that Canada can thrive with an independent currency which floats freely against the US dollar on the stock exchange, despite being a part of NAFTA. This is relevant, because just about the only thing the EU is good for is being a trading bloc - call it the European Free Trade Area if you like.
Very true.

The single currency is a silly idea though. Having a uniform interest rate for the whole EU is a policy doomed to failure - as it will intrinsically impoverish certain areas for the benefit of others. It's difficult enough with a uniform interest rate for the UK alone.
Indeed. One-size-fits-all does not work in an EU where countries vary in size of state ownership, welfare schemes etc. Different regions need different policies.

Coupled to this is the EU-wide restriction on government debt - national debts in the EU are not permitted to exceed 3% of GDP. This is a ludicrously small target, which is unrealistic for most countries - I would go as far as to say impossible.

The funny thing is that if a country is at 60% of GDP public debt, and suppose interest on this debt is at 5%, it'll already be at 3% of GDP. :)

The only way this can be achieved is to hack viciously away at government spending - which might sound like a good idea in principle, but in practice will result in the destruction of the welfare state, and force privatisation of state-owned utilities (which historically hasn't had very nice consequences for the public).
Same as above, one-size-fits-all policies won't work. Perhaps some countries do aim for liberalization of industry. Fair enough. Forcing it on countries that aren't in a way that causes them to implement said policies in a catastrophic manner is not the way to do it. Whilst I am all for encouraging countries to be more fiscally prudent, the way the EU does it is bound to leave a bad taste in the mouths of many.

The other effect of limiting government debt is that international bond markets (where government bonds are traded) will experience a shortage of supply. Like any commodity market, restriction of supply drives up the price. In this case, the price of government debt will be forced up, meaning an uncontrolled rise in interest rates, which central banks will be powerless to stop.
Most countries have traded an exchange rate risk for a default risk it seems. The ECB forbids borrowing Euros to redeem debts denominated in them - this could put certain countries in serious trouble.

As a fascist, I find comparison to the EU insulting in the extreme. Were the EU fascist, it would brooke neither the mediocrity, immigration and vacillation, nor the internal dissent, within the EU.

As a fascist, I find comparison to the EU insulting in the extreme. Were the EU fascist, it would brooke neither the mediocrity, immigration and vacillation, nor the internal dissent, within the EU.

Since you are a fascist and thus know about the fascist principles, would you please inform us of what the EU would need to do in order to actually BE fascist? What are the basic tenets of fascism and which, if any, does the EU already practice?

Since you are a fascist and thus know about the fascist principles, would you please inform us of what the EU would need to do in order to actually BE fascist? What are the basic tenets of fascism and which, if any, does the EU already practice?
Well, we need obviously German efficiency, racial and cultural purity and the suppression of internal dissent.;)

He's still not a Holocaust denier because he did not actually deny the Holocaust.

Not denying the holocaust makes one not-a-holocaust-denier.

What happens if I deny the denying of selective ethnocide and culturalocide used in Nazi Germany?

*Confused*

"It is fascism to shout down fascists," the central claim of this stupid article, is something all reasonable people get over by the time they're half way through college.

One more incarnation of the child's argument, "it is bigoted to oppose bigots."

Using the original definition of the word, the EU isn't fascist, but "fascist" has lost much of its meaning and become political shorthand for "something I really dont like".

The EU is, however, an organisation whose main purpose and practical function is to centralise a huge amount of power as far from the people it affects as possible, wield it using a bureaucratic mess of dubious legitimacy far more than it ought to be wielded.

Better off out, I say.

in fact I think it is unique in that it was the first time one group of people tried to systematically wipe out what they thought were "undermenschen(?)" in such a methodical way. that said, it may not be THE worst thing humans have ever done, and yet it is in no way a "detail"...


The Nazis were not the first to systematically wipe out / attempt to wipe out an underclass.

The Turks definitely beat the Nazis to it when they exterminated the Armenians in the early part of the 1900s. It's history's forgotten systematic genocide.

I'm sure that there are other, earlier, examples too.

Apart from the mass-murders of Stalin that were going on at the same time (some of them ethnically based), the Armenian genocides, other genocides throughout world history.

It is estimated 220 million people died in various death camps, killing fields, and such throughout the 20th century alone. This is not counting wars. The Jews were not even a majority in the Nazi camps - approximately 13 million people have died there.


This interests me - have you got any sources for your figures? I'd like to read/research the primary material

Ta

Habeas

True Fascists of the New Europe

*rest of the post*
OK, well not only is that article very, very old (JMLP only got 10% of the vote this time), it's also largely absolute crap.

The Nazis were not the first to systematically wipe out / attempt to wipe out an underclass.

The Turks definitely beat the Nazis to it when they exterminated the Armenians in the early part of the 1900s. It's history's forgotten systematic genocide.

I'm sure that there are other, earlier, examples too.
*coughs Native Americans*

JMLP, there is a sin in NS called "copy-paste spam" You're committing it. Stop.

FYI, you can post copy from articles and links to the article so others can confirm it's genuine. But huge blocks of text with no comment are out. So is "Let @Name@ speak for himself", followed by huge blocks of quotes with no comment. And, just in case this applies to you, so are huge blocks of pics with no comment -- one's worth 1000 words, after all, and verbosity isn't the road to virtue.

I'm sad to say this but the E.U parliment does have fascism in it: Alessandra Mussolini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandra_Mussolini)

Well, we need obviously German efficiency, racial and cultural purity and the suppression of internal dissent.;)

So; Another holiday in Poland?

This has probably already been said, but fascism is actually a right-wing belief. I mean, meaning fascism is a right-wing ideology.

The problem with the EU as a whole as it currently stands is that it is structured so as to be as non-responsive to its citizenry as possible. It's more like a Republic in many ways. Certainly there are some MEPs who take issue with this, but as the system currently operates it is not much better than the USA. It's something that ought to be resolved if the EU is going to go on existing - that, and what exactly the union stands for. Many countries have differing visions as to why it exists.

You're right. Anyway, I think that the EU should take this issue more seriously that it is doing right now with this Constitutional treaty thingie - it sucks a bit.
Some countries should take the lead in the unification process, like it has been done for the Maastricht treaty and the Euro, and begin transferring to the EU some actual power.
Common foreign policy and diplomacy (with a common seat at the UN), common defence and common judiciary power could be a good idea to begin with. I don't see big differences between France, Germany, Austria and Italy about that.
We could begin uniting some countries, then the other, if and when they will choose, will join.

I'm sad to say this but the E.U parliment does have fascism in it: Alessandra Mussolini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandra_Mussolini)

This proves that the fasc... sorry, the "Populist Right" isn't banned from the EU institutions by the terrible commies, after all.

And that bunch of ignorants is happy.
Fascism is not Le Pen or gw bush it's tony blair and dr reid.
In common fascism and extreme right hate colored people in their own white countries. But politically they are a bit different.
Fascism is like tony blair to adore the pride of the nation (britishness, national day, unique language, foreigners only as tourists or guests arbeiter) extreme right refuses the emmigrant and is ready to do the dirty jobs, the aliens are only temporary slave workers.

Yes Europeans like fascism. Yes they do love too the extreme right politics.
And?
Usians like too assholes.
Yes they love themselves.

The argument of the OP seems to be "The EU is fascist for disliking fascists and using all available democratic measures to keep them within limits."
That would be the political equivalent of the statement "People who are intolerant of intolerant views are intolerant themselves."

In other words, sheer nonsense.

He's still not a Holocaust denier because he did not actually deny the Holocaust.

Not denying the holocaust makes one not-a-holocaust-denier.if he did, he'd be behind bars right now.

Even Nazism was against killing. They merely stated that Jews, Gays, Gypsies and the like were inferior. The nazi mentality never was about killing until it went radical.

But then an extremist in any culture will usually support killing the "other", be it Jews, infidel, witches or whatnot.

See crusades, jyhad for examples. Extremism in a culture is what is bad.

And I do condemn them. I find extremists in any culture to be a problem.

Also, I am fully aware that my views are colored by my own culture. So yes, I might have a different opinion if I was born and raised in Saudi Arabia. I might have been in favour of the holocaust was I born in a different time and place. As much as I hate seeing myself chanting "Hail Hitler!" I might have been one.


Depends on the definition of culture I guess.

I've met Soviestan. All too much. However, he hasn't appeared in this thread yet...

Well, yes, this is sort of what I was intending to communicate. Of course, my own culture influences my standards, but there's nothing wrong with examining other cultures from my own viewpoint. If you do define certain strains of extremism as a culture, (eg. radical Islam), then condemning them must imply they are inferior, yes? I don't believe you can make a judgement on moderate cultures which don't have blatantly obvious examples of, well, insanity. This of course requires separating a culture into moderates and extremists.

So, I think we're agreeing with each other. I'm not quite sure. :p

Also, what Europa Maxima said.

This proves that the fasc... sorry, the "Populist Right" isn't banned from the EU institutions by the terrible commies, after all.

What I find funny is that she is Benito's granddaughter.

Le Pen is neither racist, anti-semitic or facist! He always critzed Nazism, Facism and Communism in his speeches! He said that they were all leftist ideologies which were bastards of the French revolution!

Bwhaha in that case I posit that on the day he said that, he must have been wearing his shoes on the wrong feet!

What I find funny is that she is Benito's granddaughter.

I'd have sex with her, but I'd not talk to her or call her afterwards.

I'd have sex with her, but I'd not talk to her or call her afterwards.

I'd be afraid that I'd decide to go to germany and try to take on europe again if I did the 'vertical dance' with her.

I'd be afraid that I'd decide to go to germany and try to take on europe again if I did the 'vertical dance' with her.

Nah. Fascism is a disease, but not an STD.

Nah. Fascism is a disease, but not an STD.

*looks at all of the Fascist viral particles* I wouldn't be too sure of that ;) ...

Intersting article

April 24, 2002 The Meaning of Le Pen
Market nationalism in France by Justin Raimondo
The stunning victory of the French National Front's Jean Marie Le Pen over Socialist Prime Minister Lionel Jospin has European and American elites in a tizzy. They are right to tremble. For the grandfatherly ex-paratrooper represents everything they hate – nationalism, traditionalism, populism – and threatens the values they seek to ensconce: Euro-federalism, multiculturalism, and rule by a technocratic elite. As the world rushes toward the supposedly inevitable cosmopolitan future of globalized governance, open borders, and a "new world order" dominated by the United States, Le Pen's upset is a defiant "No!"THE REAL LE PEN
Naturally, the guardians of political correctness have already descended on Le Pen – whom they once pronounced "finished" – as the Hitler-of-the-week. The words most associated with the 73-year-old veteran of French rightist politics, the son of a fisherman who rose from nothing to challenge the Euro-establishment, are most often "demagogue," "racist," "xenophobe," and worse. But I suggest you ignore the background noise, and check out his recent interview with Ha'aretz – the Israeli version of the New York Times – because it rings far truer than the caricature offered up by his detractors. The author is obviously not sympathetic to his subject, and every quote from Le Pen is viewed through the lens of some politically correct academician, who then "interprets" it for our benefit: but still the real man behind the media-created bogeyman shines through.
'XENOPHOBIC' – OR PRAGMATIC?
It turns out that Le Pen, far from being a dreaded "xenophobe," is simply saying that France has had enough Arab immigration:
"There is an Islamic population in France, most of which comes from the North African countries. Though some may have French citizenship, they don't have the French cultural background or sociological structure. They operate according to a different logic than most of the population here. Their values are different from those of the Judeo-Christian world. Not long ago, they spat at the president of the republic. They booed when the national anthem was played at a soccer game [in Paris, between the national teams of France and Algeria]. These elements have a negative effect on all of public security."
At a time when Islamic terrorism is a universal preoccupation, this kind of talk seems less "xenophobic" than practical. It has particular resonance in France, where criminal gangs of North African immigrants dominate whole neighborhoods, and the police do not dare venture into these enclaves, which are, in effect, conquered terrain. Crime is skyrocketing: this was the main issue of the French election, and a major reason for the National Front's electoral triumph. Le Pen has had the satisfaction of saying "I told you so," as the political mainstream tried desperately to come to terms with the crisis. But Jospin and Chirac are part of the problem, Le Pen argued, and therefore could offer no solution – and many voters agreed.
AGAINST LENNONISM
What's up with this charge of "xenophobia," anyway? Le Pen is merely saying that France should maintain its distinctive cultural-political identity, and that the immigrant floodtide threatens values worth preserving. Somehow, when the Israelis make the same argument – that allowing the Palestinians the "right of return" would threaten the identity and very existence of the Jewish state – this is not even commented on, except by hare-brained Lennonists who exhort us to "imagine there's no countries."
Yet, the same leftist nutballs "mobilizing" in the streets against the "fascist" and "racist" Le Pen might find themselves nodding their heads in agreement if they bothered to listen to what he has to say about Bush's projected invasion of Iraq:
"A war on Iraq is nothing more than a war for American material interests. During the Gulf War, I derided all those who portrayed Iraq as the fourth most powerful army in the world. It was ridiculous: To be one of the world's most powerful armies, you have to manufacture arms and ammunition. Iraq was crushed, its army was completely destroyed and the sanctions policy caused hundreds of thousands of people to die of starvation."
LE PEN'S AMERICAN PROBLEM
Le Pen and his party opposed not only the Gulf War, but also participated in demonstrations against the Kosovo war. His wife traveled to Baghdad in support of "SCS – Children of Iraq," on a humanitarian mission to thwart the monstrous sanctions that have killed thousands. Naturally, the neoconservative Right hates Le Pen as much as the post-Marxist left, on account of his supposed "anti-Americanism." But "anti-Americanism," by this definition, turns out to be simple patriotism: "I am not a xenophobe," he explains. "I am a Francophile" He proceeds to give us a
Francophile's view of the world:
"The problem with the Americans is that their disproportionate power makes them undertake policies that aren't always balanced and well-considered, and therefore dangerous. Today, there is worldwide tendency to dance to the tune of the powerful. I, on the other hand, am a French patriot concerned with the interests of France. Am I supposed to go crazy with admiration for the Americans just because they are Americans?"
Well, uh, yes, Monsieur, that is if you're going to co-exist with the US in a world where "you're either with us, or against us," as the American President and his international amen corner ceaselessly remind us. Le Pen's nationalism is bound to conflict with their vision of a world in which the only sovereignty that matters is American.
TRUTH VERSUS PROPAGANDA
Practically every news story on Le Pen's upset, by at least the second or third line, reminds us that he once said the Holocaust was an historical "detail." But not quite. Here is what he actually said, when pressed, not in reference to the Holocaust per se, but to the question of whether or not gas chambers were among the Nazi methods of extermination:
"In a book of 1,000 pages on the Second World War, the gas chambers take up 10 to 15 lines. That is a detail."
Taken in context with an earlier statement, in which he opposed French "hate crime" laws that make "holocaust denial" a crime, Le Pen's real position clearly has nothing to do with "holocaust denial," and the truth shines through even the rhetorical murk of this LeMonde Diplomatique rant:
"This is not a matter for the administration or the courts. It is a purely a question of historical research .... All reasonable people accept that Jews died en masse in the Nazi camps. What "revisionist" historians are disputing is the method of extermination .... These are matters for specialists and must be settled by historical methodology."
LE PEN ON ISRAEL
The great irony of the charge of "anti-Semitism" leveled against Le Pen and his followers is that they were the first to point to the danger posed by the real perpetrators of anti-Semitic violence in France – Arab immigrants. Le Pen is also very pro-Israel, because, as a nationalist, he can well understand the impulse that motivates the Zionist project. Asked if he thinks the military campaign that Sharon is waging in the territories is justified, he neither condemns nor approves it, but takes Sharon's self-identification as an Israeli patriot as a given:
"This is the policy that he declared. He is not betraying the commitments that he made. He said from the beginning, `I will wage war,' and he is waging a war with all the risks that involves. History will show if he was right or wrong."
Asked if he can "understand the complaints in Israel about the 'hypocritical' European reaction," Le Pen's answer underscores his natural empathy for Israel's fight for self-preservation:
"Certainly. After all, I got a similar reaction during the war in Algeria, when I served in General Massu's 10th division. We were called upon to fight the terrorism of the FLN (the Algerian nationalist movement that fought against French colonialism). The intelligentsia at home criticized our actions. It's very easy to criticize from the armchair in the living room. I completely understand the State of Israel, which is seeking to defend its citizens."
As for French, European, or specifically French intervention or mediation, he opines that the West should probably stay well out of it:
"All the efforts at mediation are not effective. I wonder if international influences might be harmful to negotiations, if they aren't pouring fuel on the fire. There is a need for a direct understanding between Israel and the Palestinians."
GO, LE PEN, GO!
Like a true nationalist, however, Le Pen looks at the Israeli-Arab conflict in demographic terms, and wonders how long a few million Israelis can hold off a billion Muslims and not be absorbed. Gee, I wondered the same thing in my last column, in which I (citing a post by Emmanuel Goldstein on his "Airstrip One" blog) speculated on the "orientalization" of Israeli society. Say, Jean Marie, if you're out there, lemme give you a shout-out, and I'll just say this: Go, Le Pen, go!
I say this without endorsing some of his kookier views, like paying women to stay home (if we have to pay them, we're lost, anyway), or agricultural subsidies (even the French libertarians of the 1760s, the Physiocrats, who pioneered the development of free-market economics, made an exception when it came to agriculture: what is it with the French and their farms?) In very broad terms, however, Le Pen represents a phenomenon I have written about in previous columns: market nationalism.
POUJADISM REVISITED
Although, in the French case, the emphasis is definitely on the second half of that phrase, you have to remember that Le Pen started out his political career as a Poujadist: he was one of several elected to the French legislature in 1956, the youngest ever elevated to that august assembly. And that makes all the difference….
Pierre Poujade's Union in Defense of Merchants and Artisans was what today would be called an "anti-government" movement -- a militant group of small shopkeepers and rural folk who resented government taxes and regulation. At the time there was a great outcry from the leftist-socialist establishment (on both sides of the Atlantic) that Poujade was a "fascist" and a "black reactionary." But that is utter hogwash, as Murray N. Rothbard pointed out in his trenchant 1956 article on the subject:
"The first thing for Americans to realize: don't fall blindly for the cry of 'fascist.' Remember how the leftist press is always ready to smear anti-Communists and anti-Socialists or anti-internationalist Americans with the 'fascist' label. Poujade himself strongly denies that his movement is fascist. He points out that the fascists did not come from the middle classes, but were usually former socialists from the ranks of the workers."
What was true in 1956 in regard to the Poujadists is even truer now when it comes to Le Pen. For the supposedly "fascist" leader, in calling for halving the tax rate, is being true to his roots as a French populist with a decidedly libertarian streak, as Rothbard's description of the Poujadist program makes clear:
"Banded together in the Union in Defense of Merchants and Artisans, they were led by Pierre Poujade, a bookseller from the little southern French town of St. Céré. Winning election to the local council, the young bookseller persuaded the council and the town's merchants to refuse tax payment and resist inspection of their books by the central government. Successful resistance spread the idea and the movement to neighboring towns, and finally to a large portion of France.
"The Poujadist belief in direct action by the people is dramatically revealed in one of their favorite devices: 'packing' every auction for tax delinquency. Defying the desperate auctioneers, one Poujadist would then buy the store for a few cents, and give it back to the grateful shopkeeper."
This is "fascism" only if you're some Euro-weenie intellectual who vaguely remembers something from Adorno – or was that Wilhelm Reich? – about how fascism is the effusion of the "enraged bourgeoisie."
EURO-REVOLUTION, PART DEUX
Speaking of which, I wrote on that topic – the enraged bourgeoisie, that is – specifically in regard to Europe, back when the famous gas tax revolt swept the continent in September of 2000:
"What we are witnessing in Europe is nothing less than a revolution, a radical reaction to the consolidation of continental socialism – a reaction that goes beyond the ballot box and takes the fight against the Eurocrats to the streets. As even the idea of national sovereignty is erased, and the rule of the managers and corporate planners seeks to rationalize European social and economic life into prescribed patterns of political correctness, the intended victims of this new order – the small business owners, the independent truckers and lorrie drivers, the Belgian hauliers, the French farmers, the fishermen – in short, ordinary people throughout Europe – have been thoroughly radicalized by the stubborn arrogance of their socialist elites."
This is precisely what is fueling the Le Pen phenomenon. The revolt against the European elites by ordinary bourgeois Europeans has once again erupted, and it looks like the French run-off election is going to be … very interesting.
ANOTHER SURPRISE?
The conventional wisdom, naturally, is that Le Pen doesn't stand a chance, the polls show a Chirac landslide, blah blah blah. But the polls were wrong before, and, who knows, but they could be wrong again. Certainly Chirac, whose Clintonian scale of corruption has been mercilessly exposed in a series of financial scandals involving kickbacks, is vulnerable – and he is making himself even more vulnerable by refusing to debate Le Pen. This sense of entitlement displayed by the political class seems, to the ordinary French citizen, to be entirely unearned. By arrogantly refusing to debate, Chirac is tempting fate – and certainly he deserves to lose.
LE PEN VS. THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
Writing in the Wall Street Journal, Michael Ledeen gives us the conventional neocon wisdom on l'affaire Le Pen:
"In any event, we will not have to worry about Mr. Le Pen for more than the two weeks until the runoff. When Mr. Chirac is reelected, he will have to lead his country in a very new Europe, but not the center-left Europe so long imagined by most of the intellectuals and fashionable politicians. Through no particular merit of his own, Mr. Chirac will be a major player in a center-right Europe that will be more suspicious of the mounting power of the European bureaucracy in Brussels, less inclined to dissolve national identities in a new continental union, and keen on retaining more initiative in national legislatures."
"Through no particular merit of his own" indeed! Is that why anti-Le Pen commies, who took to the streets immediately after the election returns came in – overturning cars and smashing store windows – carried placards proclaiming "Vote sleaze, not fascist"?
Le Pen is not merely "suspicious" of that monstrosity in Brussels, he is unalterably opposed to it and has vowed to take France out of the EU altogether. Instead of waiting for the monster to be born, he wants to kill it in its crib. In that battle, there can be no compromise, no neutrality: you are either with the defenders of national sovereignty (including libertarians as well as nationalists), or you are with the Euro-crats. Let us hope and pray the French voters have the wisdom and the courage to choose the former.

Intersting article

*sips long article*


JMLP, I would like to point out to you the infinite wisdom of our latest mod who, in her benevolence, said in this very thread:

JMLP, there is a sin in NS called "copy-paste spam" You're committing it. Stop.

FYI, you can post copy from articles and links to the article so others can confirm it's genuine. But huge blocks of text with no comment are out. So is "Let @Name@ speak for himself", followed by huge blocks of quotes with no comment. And, just in case this applies to you, so are huge blocks of pics with no comment -- one's worth 1000 words, after all, and verbosity isn't the road to virtue.

Some countries should take the lead in the unification process, like it has been done for the Maastricht treaty and the Euro, and begin transferring to the EU some actual power.
The good thing about a Constitution is that it'd streamline the entry process. Then, countries which do not wish to remain in the EU can leave (perhaps Britain if it remains dissatisfied with the EU's evolution). Those that stay should be able to enjoy a greater check on power within the EU, provided the (revised) Constitution is implemented properly.

And that bunch of ignorants is happy.
Fascism is not Le Pen or gw bush it's tony blair and dr reid.
In common fascism and extreme right hate colored people in their own white countries. But politically they are a bit different.
Fascism is like tony blair to adore the pride of the nation (britishness, national day, unique language, foreigners only as tourists or guests arbeiter) extreme right refuses the emmigrant and is ready to do the dirty jobs, the aliens are only temporary slave workers.

Yes Europeans like fascism. Yes they do love too the extreme right politics.
And?
Usians like too assholes.
Yes they love themselves.
I appreciate that English may not be your first language, but I really don't see the point you're trying to make.

The good thing about a Constitution is that it'd streamline the entry process. Then, countries which do not wish to remain in the EU can leave (perhaps Britain if it remains dissatisfied with the EU's evolution). Those that stay should be able to enjoy a greater check on power within the EU, provided the (revised) Constitution is implemented properly.
Of course, I won't expect the British public to accept an EU constitution could limit and streamline the EU. The press will tell us otherwise, and nearly everybody will believe it, based on media myths and speculation. Rather like the Human Rights Act.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/12/washington/12combatant.html?hp

Europe fascist?
What to say about USA????
Hitler was not such an hypocrite as the usians are.

EEK! The undead!

Time to get out the:
http://www.wayodd.com/funny-pictures2/funny-pictures-zombie-survival-kit-1cs.jpg