NationStates Jolt Archive

The new French President really has his act together. Sarkozy’s proposal (http://news.bostonherald.com/international/europe/view.bg?articleid=1004803to) to set deportation quotas is an exceptional idea. A similar requirement by our invertebrate Administration might even make the new Illegal Immigrant Amnesty bill a little more palatable. Or even unnecessary!


In a meeting with security officials, Hortefeux reiterated President Nicolas Sarkozy’s goal of 25,000 expulsions by the end of 2007 - compared with 24,000 in 2006 - and set a year-end goal of 125,000 arrests for alleged illegal entry or illegal residence, a ministry statement said. The number of those already arrested was not immediately clear.


In fact, we're a bigger country and I'll be we could deport 100,000 per month if we tried. The French just seem to want what most of us should want. Immigrants that are willing to integrate with existing society. They just seem a little more direct about it.

Arrests for alleged illegal entry or residence... sound like he's going to start a witch hunt.

This makes me think of parking tickets. In the UK responsiblity for parking tickets was decentralised. The power went from the Police the to local councils, who typically contracted out the work. As such many traffic wardens had to work to quotas, which has to led to many parking tickets being falsely issued.

You can just imagine what might happen with these French quotas.

Quotas don't seem to work in my experience. Either they cause problems as people struggle to meet their quotas or they lie about what they have actually done or simply disregard them. Soviet food quotas also come to mind.

Oh, did they finally put Napoleon's brain into that robot they were building?

Arrests for alleged illegal entry or residence... sound like he's going to start a witch hunt.

That's not true...

Witches could get off by pleading guilty...

Oh, about the quotas or whatever...I remember this time the UK had apparently decided that not enough people were getting convicted of rape...

But instead of going "Woohoo! A major societal problem is beginning to decrease!" they expanded the definition of rape so more people would get convicted of it. If I remember correctly, it made having sex with a drunk woman (But not a drunk man...Yay for societal double standards!) rape, and I believe it also made it easier to get a rape conviction.

And so when the French run out of actual free-loading illegals, they will begin to throw out hard-working necessary, possibly intellectual and asylum seeking, illegals. And after that, then hard-working legal intellectual and asylum seeking immigrants on technicalities.

All too often I hear of Pakistani and other Asian Doctors etc. getting sent home on technicalities by our British government, usually sent to their deaths. These individuals are always good people who are just trying to live a meaningful productive life. That is not to say there are not free loading immigrants, but still...

But instead of going "Woohoo! A major societal problem is beginning to decrease!" they expanded the definition of rape so more people would get convicted of it. If I remember correctly, it made having sex with a drunk woman (But not a drunk man...Yay for societal double standards!) rape, and I believe it also made it easier to get a rape conviction.

Indeed. I'm always saying that men are perfectly capable of being raped themselves, but of course people just ignore me. But that's for a completely different thread. If someone wants to debate it, make another thread.

This makes me think of parking tickets. In the UK responsiblity for parking tickets was decentralised. The power went from the Police the to local councils, who typically contracted out the work. As such many traffic wardens had to work to quotas, which has to led to many parking tickets being falsely issued.

You can just imagine what might happen with these French quotas.

Quotas don't seem to work in my experience. Either they cause problems as people struggle to meet their quotas or they lie about what they have actually done or simply disregard them. Soviet food quotas also come to mind.

That's exactly what I was thinking. The police are going to have to make sure they round up enough illegal immigrants, and if they don't meet the quota, well they'll just have to find some legal immigrants and "lose" their documentation.

That's exactly what I was thinking. The police are going to have to make sure they round up enough illegal immigrants, and if they don't meet the quota, well they'll just have to find some legal immigrants and "lose" their documentation.

And that's where it'll come in handy that the immigrants don't even have to be illegal, it's enough if they're allegedly illegal.

"I tell you, he's an illegal immigrant! He's from Spain!"

And that's where it'll come in handy that the immigrants don't even have to be illegal, it's enough if they're allegedly illegal.

"I tell you, he's an illegal immigrant! He's from Spain!"

Tourists might get a free flight home.....

Tourists might get a free flight home.....
Actually, they could profit. If I recall correctly, France is offering cash to illegals that turn themselves in to be deported.

I like the idea of getting tough on deportation, however the whole quota thing can lead pretty easy to abusive and arbitrary police practices.

Actually, they could profit. If I recall correctly, France is offering cash to illegals that turn themselves in to be deported.

A holiday to France that pays for itself. Sweet.

Arrests for alleged illegal entry or residence... sound like he's going to start a witch hunt.

And what do we burn aside from witches?

Illegal Immigrants!

Just click and drag to see the answer!

A holiday to France that pays for itself. Sweet.

Maybe I should wait until my visa runs out and get a free trip home with some extra spending money.

In a meeting with security officials, Hortefeux reiterated President Nicolas Sarkozy’s goal of 25,000 expulsions by the end of 2007 - compared with 24,000 in 2006 - and set a year-end goal of 125,000 arrests for alleged illegal entry or illegal residence, a ministry statement said. The number of those already arrested was not immediately clear.

Oh yes, he's doing it. Sending police to arrest children and parents at schools' doors and then using teargas grenade on kids and teachers alike when a teacher protests, harrassing people who look a bit tan by controlling their identity ten times per day (that's not an exageration, that's the daily life here), being so violent in forcing them to take planes that some died or where badly wounded during the expulsion, ...

And of course, using so much policemen to chase immigrants that they can't fight real crime anymore. There are drug dealers all around where I work, cops don't care about that, they spend all their time looking for illegal immigrants. Sure, we are much safer with "legal" drug dealers than with "illegal" people who were just fleeing misery or dictatorship.

Wonderful.

Arrests for alleged illegal entry or residence... sound like he's going to start a witch hunt.

That's exactly what is going on here, it was already a bit the case since Pasqua in 1993, but since Sarkozy became "Ministry of Interior" in 2002, it became really frightening. It *IS* a witch hunt, with all the disastrous consequences.

It's a lot easier in France, where there are national identity cards.

We don't have those here in the US.

Whose idea was the national identity card?

Germany's, I'm guessing...

It's a lot easier in France, where there are national identity cards.

We don't have those here in the US.

Whose idea was the national identity card?

Bleddy Sarko.

Car-burnings ahoy in the banlieus!

And so when the French run out of actual free-loading illegals, they will begin to throw out hard-working necessary, possibly intellectual and asylum seeking, illegals.

For asylum seeking, it's already the case. It's nearly impossible te be recognized as one in France nowadays, and France was even sentenced by European Human Rights Court for that. For example, there is a list of "safe country" from which asylum is always refused, and this list was extended by Sarkozy last year to include... Afghanistan (you know, a country in which you can still be sentenced to death for changing your religion).

All too often I hear of Pakistani and other Asian Doctors etc. getting sent home on technicalities by our British government, usually sent to their deaths. These individuals are always good people who are just trying to live a meaningful productive life. That is not to say there are not free loading immigrants, but still...

Indeed... a collective of NGOs recently did such a campaign of postering here, they showed photos of people, their names, and "Explused from France <this day>. Killed in their country <this day>". It's really scary. And it happens regularly... french police send people to a certain death. They just don't care... "Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité" and the "country of human rights" are really dead words with such a president as Sarkozy.

That's not true...

Witches could get off by pleading guilty...

Oh, about the quotas or whatever...I remember this time the UK had apparently decided that not enough people were getting convicted of rape...

But instead of going "Woohoo! A major societal problem is beginning to decrease!" they expanded the definition of rape so more people would get convicted of it. If I remember correctly, it made having sex with a drunk woman (But not a drunk man...Yay for societal double standards!) rape, and I believe it also made it easier to get a rape conviction.

as i understand it a man can't be raped. If its done by another man, then it falls under buggery.

Although this knoweldge is from around '96 or so when i studied law. so probably out of date...

It's a lot easier in France, where there are national identity cards.

We don't have those here in the US.

Whose idea was the national identity card?
I think we're only an election away from something similar...

Germany's, I'm guessing...

National identity cards make it very easy to round people up.

You have a fairly up to date database of places of residence, names, etc.

And since everyone has to produce one on demand from the police, the roundup is quite simple.

National identity cards make it very easy to round people up.

You have a fairly up to date database of places of residence, names, etc.

And since everyone has to produce one on demand from the police, the roundup is quite simple.
Err... well the problem with that is you just go "voila" and show a fake one, which is reasonably well done, and job's a good 'un. If they're rounding up people from whole districts, they're not going to have time to check each one properly, so a convincing fake (or indeed anything at all) would do nicely.

Err... well the problem with that is you just go "voila" and show a fake one, which is reasonably well done, and job's a good 'un. If they're rounding up people from whole districts, they're not going to have time to check each one properly, so a convincing fake (or indeed anything at all) would do nicely.

In this age of modern technology, you mean they don't have machine readable identity cards?

Kind of hard to fake that, and quickly read.

Your fantasy might have worked a decade ago.

In this age of modern technology, you mean they don't have machine readable identity cards?

Kind of hard to fake that, and quickly read.

Your fantasy might have worked a decade ago.
No, they don't have biometric cards yet, there've been several clashes with human rights activists and such over this, which is why my plan would work, especially if they're quickly checking to see if anyone who looks a bit like they're a north African Arab doesn't have one so they can kick them out, rather than properly checking.

I think we're only an election away from something similar...

I don't know about that. Through the valiant efforts of the states of Washington and Montana I doubt the Real ID Act will work.

http://www.stateline.org/live/details/story?contentId=206433

No, they don't have biometric cards yet, there've been several clashes with human rights activists and such over this, which is why my plan would work, especially if they're quickly checking to see if anyone who looks a bit like they're a north African Arab doesn't have one so they can kick them out, rather than properly checking.

It doesn't have to be biometric.

A bar code makes something essentially tamperproof.

It doesn't have to be biometric.

A bar code makes something essentially tamperproof.
Still not worth it when all you want is to take a few people who look a bit dark-skinned and chuck them on the next ship to Tunisia, and anyone who doesn't have the beginnings of one is an easy target.

This is about making up the numbers to please the far-right in France, not about any kind of proper justice.

It's a lot easier in France, where there are national identity cards.

We don't have those here in the US.

Whose idea was the national identity card?
Pétain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_national_identity_card). Wiki is your friend.;)

It doesn't have to be biometric.

A bar code makes something essentially tamperproof.
Until criminal gangs work out how to play with them, of course. And that includes New Labour, should they get their cards in the UK.

This is about making up the numbers to please the far-right in France, not about any kind of proper justice.

To please the far-right, to have a scapegoat to blame for all problems (so people won't try to look at real causes), and to act as a smoke screen to prevent social and economical issues to become too important in the political debate, since Sarkozy's proposals on those fields are not popular.

Until criminal gangs work out how to play with them, of course. And that includes New Labour, should they get their cards in the UK.
Damn right. If we can have chip and pin theft, we can sure as hell do crappy barcode changing stuff.

To please the far-right, to have a scapegoat to blame for all problems (so people won't try to look at real causes), and to act as a smoke screen to prevent social and economical issues to become too important in the political debate, since Sarkozy's proposals on those fields are not popular.
Yeah, exactly.

Heh, when the white guys at the top fail, you can always blame it on les beurs, right?

The new French President really has his act together. Sarkozy’s proposal (http://news.bostonherald.com/international/europe/view.bg?articleid=1004803to) to set deportation quotas is an exceptional idea. A similar requirement by our invertebrate Administration might even make the new Illegal Immigrant Amnesty bill a little more palatable. Or even unnecessary!

In fact, we're a bigger country and I'll be we could deport 100,000 per month if we tried. The French just seem to want what most of us should want. Immigrants that are willing to integrate with existing society. They just seem a little more direct about it.

Deportation quotas are such a ridiculous idea it's almost impossible to reconcile that a real person would agree with them, let alone suggest them.

What does anyone honestly think will happen when a department finds itself 'short' on it's quota?

Deportation quotas are such a ridiculous idea it's almost impossible to reconcile that a real person would agree with them, let alone suggest them.

Indeed.

What does anyone honestly think will happen when a department finds itself 'short' on it's quota?

Mostly two things: first, Sarkozy introduced the notion of "merit" in the policemen wages, which is used to punish (by lowering the wages) of those who fail to reach the quota, the second one is that their promotion will be much slower, or even completly stopped.

This apply to immigrants, but also to other crimes.

With that, you force policemen to respect the quota (even if it means breaking a few laws or arresting the wrong person), and you ensure that only those who are ready to fullfill the quota at any cost will reach the top ranking position...

As a former police officer explained in avery interesting interview (http://videobaseproject.net/video81.html) on the changes inside the police, since 1993-1995 (Pasqua-Debré) and mostly since 2002 (Sarkozy), now, for a policeman, it's much more risky to disobey an illegal order than to break the law...

No wonder why the climate is so heated between the policemen and the part of the population, which, because of its skin color and lower-class background, are always suspected of everything (being an "illegal immigrant", being a thief, a drug dealer, ...)

A deportation quota? Why not send them to the gulags instead?

Just out of curiosity...

63,713,926 people in France.

125,000 divided by 63,713,926 is...

.001% of their population (Roughly) is to be deported by the end of the year.

Well, it's not as bad as I was expecting.

Just out of curiosity...

63,713,926 people in France.

125,000 divided by 63,713,926 is...

.001% of their population (Roughly) is to be deported by the end of the year.

Well, it's not as bad as I was expecting.

It is if you are one of the people deported... especially if you were legitimate, and became a victim of desperate need to meet quotas.

That's the thing... percentages are irrelevent, if you are part of the statistic.

A holiday to France that pays for itself. Sweet.

Aren't you an EU citizen? That sort of means you can't enter France illegally.

Excellent idea. Once more, I can only lament the fact that Sarkozy is not British.

Excellent idea. Once more, I can only lament the fact that Sarkozy is not British.

If Sarkozy where British, I would immediately implore the Scottish Parliament to secede from Britain, and help my Muslim neighbours erect a barricade.

Excellent idea. Once more, I can only lament the fact that Sarkozy is not British.

So go vote for Griffen the swastica fan. His ideas are exactly the same

I don't know about that. Through the valiant efforts of the states of Washington and Montana I doubt the Real ID Act will work.

http://www.stateline.org/live/details/story?contentId=206433

i will never carry a real id card...ever!
kudos to washington and montana.

i truly feel real id is the end of freedom and the beginning of fascism.it really smacks of nazi germany and soviet russia...can i see your papers...i am all for security and secure borders,but i was born here and i will damn sure not be treated like a criminal by the police when i get stopped.it is slowly getting there,but the real id will be the final nail in the coffin of freedom,and create the true us verse them mentality with the civilians and the leos.things will spiral downward from there.

The French get tough? Pah! [/irrational hatred of France]

i truly feel real id is the end of freedom and the beginning of fascism.it really smacks of nazi germany and soviet russia...can i see your papers...i am all for security and secure borders,but i was born here and i will damn sure not be treated like a criminal by the police when i get stopped.it is slowly getting there,but the real id will be the final nail in the coffin of freedom,and create the true us verse them mentality with the civilians and the leos.things will spiral downward from there.

Viva la Furher?

Bad, very bad for France. France needs all the labor it can get right now. Doesn't mean that they can use it with her other policies, but there are better ways to deal with immigration than wholesale deportation. For one, they should stop with their damn emphasis on assimilation. It won't change anytime soon, because they've been assimilating for centuries, but it has caused France real problems in the past. That's part of the reason why their empire didn't last.