NationStates Jolt Archive

It's a matter of opinion really. Most martial arts start you out on one opponent and build up so you can defend against multiple.

EDIT - do the time warp! Oh yeah!

Best Martial Art for realistic self-defence?

I had thought maybe wing chun, but after seeing some videos it looks like the "multiple attack" training is seriously unrealistic. Gangs do NOT fight you one by one, each waiting for their turn patiently.

No style is better than the other. Whoever hits first, is the most aggressive, and knows the most about grappling almost always wins.

Indeed, some styles are more lethal than others, but at that point you ought to just carry a gun and forget about hand-to-hand fighting altogether.

Jujitsu, preferably Brazilian with an Army flavor.

Best Martial Art for realistic self-defence?

I had thought maybe wing chun, but after seeing some videos it looks like the "multiple attack" training is seriously unrealistic. Gangs do NOT fight you one by one, each waiting for their turn patiently.

I would look at tae kwon do and jujitsu, perhaps with some training in bo-jitsu as well, though for that you'll need a bo staff. (Luckily a quality bo staff is actually pretty cheap...mine only cost fifteen dollars and it can stand up to an extreme amount of punishment.)

Just keep in mind that martial arts courses train you against one opponent in the beginning because you're supposed to be learning the basics and some of the advanced moves. Once you've proven yourself at least semi-good, you'll move on to multiple opponents.

No style is better than the other. Whoever hits first, is the most aggressive, and knows the most about grappling almost always wins.

Wrong. If you hit first and are most aggressive and know lots about grappling, but are trained in a Martial Art that is unrealistic when it comes to multiple attacks, the others are likely to win - you think "yeh I know _____ Martial Art, so I can beat these people" then when it doesn't work, you're fucked.

Rocket launcher or shotgun.

Wrong. If you hit first and are most aggressive and know lots about grappling, but are trained in a Martial Art that is unrealistic when it comes to multiple attacks, the others are likely to win - you think "yeh I know _____ Martial Art, so I can beat these people" then when it doesn't work, you're fucked.

It's about timing and being able to know when to defend, hit and how hard and where to strike to be the most effective. Chaining counter-attacks can push you opponent back and allow you to strike as a second as the first tries to recover.

At least this is what I was taught in Tae Kwon-do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tae_kwon-do); the way of the hand and foot.

Wrong. If you hit first and are most aggressive and know lots about grappling, but are trained in a Martial Art that is unrealistic when it comes to multiple attacks, the others are likely to win - you think "yeh I know _____ Martial Art, so I can beat these people" then when it doesn't work, you're fucked.

Eh? If you hit someone in the face first and maintain the initiative through aggression, your close to winning. When it comes to the ground is your problem; most fights end up on the ground for the very good reason that street-fights aren't regulated by some sports organization; your opponent isn't going to resist a chokehold because you think it's not sporting. If you then, know most about grappling you'll win most of the time.

If you just learn karate and are unprepared for the fact that kicks usually amount to jack and that being grappled to ground makes you defenseless, then what was the point of learning Karate? Or any fighting style that doesn't emphasize what has already been discussed?

Gun-jitsu.

To be unusual, might I suggest the Russian Martial Art, Systema:

The self defence part of the art employs a rag doll technique, where emphasis is on using an opponents own attacks against them, as well as slipping out of holds. The art also teaches how to employ the use of various weapons in hand to hand combat.

It is usually purported to have been used by the Soviet Army Specnaz and other Elite Russian units. It evolved out of various older Russian martial practices.

Systema Workshop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE_4bRXATLc&mode=related&search=)

Soviet Army Systema Training (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uuq50cDfrTs)

UK Systema Website (http://www.systemauk.com/system.htm)

Whatever the trainee is good at. This will work the best.

No point doing tae kwon do if you cant kick is there?

All have their merits and downsides, its up to the individual to compensate and use their brain.

Gun-jitsu.
That's good too. Just remember that this involves a staff, not firearms. (It's Chinese.)

To be unusual, might I suggest the Russian Martial Art, Systema:

The self defence part of the art employs a rag doll technique, where emphasis is on using an opponents own attacks against them, as well as slipping out of holds. The art also teaches how to employ the use of various weapons in hand to hand combat.

It is usually purported to have been used by the Soviet Army Specnaz and other Elite Russian units. It evolved out of various older Russian martial practices.

Systema Workshop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE_4bRXATLc&mode=related&search=)

Soviet Army Systema Training (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uuq50cDfrTs)

UK Systema Website (http://www.systemauk.com/system.htm)
This is extremely good if you have weapons, or even if you don't. It's a martial arts style meant for actual combat for special forces and whatnot, as indicated by who uses it. It's also extremely intensive.

It's about timing and being able to know when to defend, hit and how hard and where to strike to be the most effective. Chaining counter-attacks can push you opponent back and allow you to strike as a second as the first tries to recover.

At least this is what I was taught in Tae Kwon-do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tae_kwon-do); the way of the hand and foot.

Ya true, but that's not what was in the (wing chun) vid I saw. It was like from a Martial Arts film, where each person patiently waits for their friend to get beaten up before they attack. I've seen an aikido multiple attack video and even though I do realise it was for demonstration purposes, the techniques used looked like they could easily transfer to real life (and the attackers weren't waiting around either).

P.S. Taekwondo has too many high kicks to be realistic even for one-on-one defence. High kicks leave you vulnerable to: leg being grabbed, or/and being sweeped, or/and being kicked in the genitals, etc etc

you' know they do have something called "self defense classes" rather than a martial art

I for one suggest taking up the ancient combat discipline of running really, really fast :p

Shaq-Fu! :)
http://www.exotica.org.uk/gallery/games/images/s/ShaqFu-t.jpg

Ya true, but that's not what was in the (wing chun) vid I saw. It was like from a Martial Arts film, where each person patiently waits for their friend to get beaten up before they attack. I've seen an aikido multiple attack video and even though I do realise it was for demonstration purposes, the techniques used looked like they could easily transfer to real life (and the attackers weren't waiting around either).

P.S. Taekwondo has too many high kicks to be realistic even for one-on-one defence. High kicks leave you vulnerable to: leg being grabbed, or/and being sweeped, or/and being kicked in the genitals, etc etc

Aye. That's why out of all of my recommendations I prefer bo-jitsu. Having the staff keeps people at a much greater distance than up close, and makes me feel safer as it is harder for them to pull a knife on me. The staff is one of the best parry and block weapons in the world, methinks. Much better than using a sword or a mace or what have you.

P.S. Taekwondo has too many high kicks to be realistic even for one-on-one defence. High kicks leave you vulnerable to: leg being grabbed, or/and being sweeped, or/and being kicked in the genitals, etc etc
The high kicks are used in tournaments. The average kick is aimed above the belt. Trust me, anything you see in those videos is highly stylised and geared to gaining points during sparring events.

You can easily use a mid-range turning kick that goes low and high thus forcing you opponent to lower his hands so you can hit higher up. The objective is to make you opponent lower his/her defences.

It's really a matter of chaining together the right set of kicks and punches. Not everything works in everyday life but there are combos that can be lethal in combat, especially when you know where to hit.

The objective with TKD is to know where your opponent is the weakest and strike there.

I would not use a high kick unless it was the "ice pick" style kick and it went to the chin of the person attacking me.

Even if they grab your leg, remember, this takes their hands and leaves yours free. Two fingers right to the eyes. Fall back, roll and you can kick while on the ground.

Best self-defence is not being an arsehole to other people. Other than that if you put in the time to practice the basics over and over again almost any martial art will do.

It's about timing and being able to know when to defend, hit and how hard and where to strike to be the most effective. Chaining counter-attacks can push you opponent back and allow you to strike as a second as the first tries to recover.

At least this is what I was taught in Tae Kwon-do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tae_kwon-do); the way of the hand and foot.


ITF or WTF?

ITF or WTF?

I was in ITF.

I'd vote for Aikido, but I think you really must be quite good at it in order to be able to use it effectively.

kick-you-in-the-head Fu.

I was in ITF.

Excellent. One of the lads does that. The other bunch tend to forget they have hands. Negative training yadda da yadda.

kick-you-in-the-balls Fu.

Fixed. :D

Brazilian ju-jitsu and shoto khan are my choices

I recomend Jeet Kune Do. Its actually made to be for street fighting. Tae Kwon Do is pretty good too as long as you don't get grappled in which case you will be at a roughly equal level (probably better, since you will be in good shape from the martial arts.)

A lot of people think that if you are skilled in a non-grappling martial arts, you will get thrashed on the ground. No, you are just at a minimum be equal to the other person assuming you are not grappling with a bunch of people walking out of a judo classroom. ITF TKW also has some anti-grapple moves too, that get you out of holds and get them on the ground (or in some other even worse position.)

The high kicks are used in tournaments. The average kick is aimed above the belt. Trust me, anything you see in those videos is highly stylised and geared to gaining points during sparring events.

You can easily use a mid-range turning kick that goes low and high thus forcing you opponent to lower his hands so you can hit higher up. The objective is to make you opponent lower his/her defences.

It's really a matter of chaining together the right set of kicks and punches. Not everything works in everyday life but there are combos that can be lethal in combat, especially when you know where to hit.

The objective with TKD is to know where your opponent is the weakest and strike there.

Even if they grab your leg, remember, this takes their hands and leaves yours free. Two fingers right to the eyes. Fall back, roll and you can kick while on the ground.

Agreed, you don't throw big pretty kicks in an actual fight. There are some kicks which even when caught dont really do much. I remeber my friend insisted that he could catch and neutralize any of my kicks, so I threw a nice slow sidekick so he could catch it...and it did nothing, even at slow speeds. My leg muscles are considerably stronger than his arm muscles.

Tae kwon leep. Boot to the head.

Fixed. :D

Nah...

Balls knocks them out of reproducing, but face knocks them out of the running.

Best Martial Art for realistic self-defence?

I had thought maybe wing chun, but after seeing some videos it looks like the "multiple attack" training is seriously unrealistic. Gangs do NOT fight you one by one, each waiting for their turn patiently.

Sudoku.
It confuses your attackers. *nods*

Run-and-hide-do, the way of the running and hiding.

I have taken lessons in Tae Kwan Doe, Boxing, and Pokelan Jumindi (I know I spelled it wrong) respectively. I woulf think Pokelan was the most sensible of them when it came to self defensive. The style was very aggresive but also focused greatly on self defense. I got drilled with smack pads until I was able to block them all... some of the defensive tactics became almost instinctive. The last time someone took a swing at me even in play I found myself parrying and preparing for thier next attack.

Pokelan Jumindi

What the jaysus is that, when its at home?

Wing Chun, Aikido, Krav Maga and so on. I've done Wing Chun. It's really good. Krav Maga might be the best though for the fact that it involves situational awareness training and active practice (and it is designed to be as lethal and efficient as possible). Other martial arts practitioners are catching up nowadays, but traditional martial arts still suffer from the problem that they entail little more than the repetition of certain techniques. Most arts can be lethal, if combined with the appropriate amount of practical skill. Here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053&q=Aliveness) is something to illustrate what I mean.

Its spelled Poekelan Jumindi...

Its an exotic martial art from the Indonisia area. In its higher forms it is highly lethal if you want it to be, it was originally developed specifically to counter most european martial art forms like boxing and that french one.. (Mui Thia??) its a lot like dancing and teaches you how to fight standing, laying down on the front or back, or even sitting. The self defense monauvers focus on avoiding attacks while simultaniously punshing the attacker. For instance you avoid getting punched or kicked by slapping the attack away by hitting thier foreamrs or the lower calves, sensitive ares with lots of nerve endings. Eventually with enough parries you can cause the skin to start peeling off and bleeding, and possibly make it impossible to move it because the nerves shut oof.

Its spelled Poekelan Jumindi...

Its an exotic martial art from the Indonisia area. In its higher forms it is highly lethal if you want it to be, it was originally developed specifically to counter most european martial art forms like boxing and that french one.. (Mui Thia??) its a lot like dancing and teaches you how to fight standing, laying down on the front or back, or even sitting. The self defense monauvers focus on avoiding attacks while simultaniously punshing the attacker. For instance you avoid getting punched or kicked by slapping the attack away by hitting thier foreamrs or the lower calves, sensitive ares with lots of nerve endings. Eventually with enough parries you can cause the skin to start peeling off and bleeding, and possibly make it impossible to move it because the nerves shut oof.


French one is Savate. Muay Thai is Thai boxing and they are hard, hard lads.

French one is Savate. Muay Thai is Thai boxing and they are hard, hard lads.

Oi.... but is that a good enough explanation of Poekelan for you?

French one is Savate. Muay Thai is Thai boxing and they are hard, hard lads.

True - but to be good at Muay Thai you should really start when you are about three. It is a very effective martial art, but you don't get many sixty year olds who can do a spinning kick without breaking a hip. So my advice would always be to practice something that you can still make work throughout your life.

True - but to be good at Muay Thai you should really start when you are about three. It is a very effective martial art, but you don't get many sixty year olds who can do a spinning kick without breaking a hip. So my advice would always be to practice something that you can still make work throughout your life.

They guy training me in Peokelan was in his 70's

They guy training me in Peokelan was in his 70's

What I am saying is more to do with Muay Thai - I just don't think it realistic for most people to maintain the levels of fitness and flexibility required unless they are able to train for an hour or so every day. My point is that you are better off investing your time in something you can still make work when you are 65.

I don't know much about Peokelan - I have heard good things about some of the Indonesian martial art styles.

Can't be bothered to read the whole thread, but I'd personally go for three different techniques, namely:

Systema, russian special ops. martial art, no fancy stuff but damn effective. I belive the Spetznas units use it, if I remember correctly.

Krav Maga, israeli martial art. Highly effective and uses all dirty tricks to survive. Developed by the IDF.

and finally

Shoot-fighting, very effective style combining the advantages of Muay-Thai and Catch Wrestling. "Don't box with a boxer, don't wrestle a wrestler."

My 2c

Colt .45 will take down any Kung-fu move bustin' foo' any day.

What I am saying is more to do with Muay Thai - I just don't think it realistic for most people to maintain the levels of fitness and flexibility required unless they are able to train for an hour or so every day. My point is that you are better off investing your time in something you can still make work when you are 65.

I don't know much about Peokelan - I have heard good things about some of the Indonesian martial art styles.

I was just using it as a good example of one you can keep doing...

Colt .45 will take down any Kung-fu move bustin' foo' any day.

I am master of ancient fighting technique... chink-chink-boom!

Best Martial Art for realistic self-defence?

I had thought maybe wing chun, but after seeing some videos it looks like the "multiple attack" training is seriously unrealistic. Gangs do NOT fight you one by one, each waiting for their turn patiently.

I suggest you watch this video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=D3K-mrlYG7Y).

It's edutainment!

Any weapon based martial art. The longer the weapon, the better.

I personally like the idea of cross training in several martial arts. At Princeton Academy of Martial Arts the main style taught was Lee Jun Fan kung fu/JKD with lots of classes in Philipino Kali and Indonesian Silat thrown in and grappling classes offered two nights per week and boxing sparring on Wednesday nights along with classes in Muay Thai offered a couple of nights per week. Kali and Silat are great for throws, joint locks/breaks, and weapons. Lee Jun Fan kung fu, boxing and Muay thai are great for mobility and striking on your feet. Grappling covers the ground game.

I would suggest Muay-Thai or Judo for realistic self-defense.



Or if you have the time, energy, and dedication to train as often and intensely as Bruce Lee had, Jeet Kun Do is essentially the perfect martial art.

I carry a Les Baer Custom 1911.

I practice with it all the time, and carry it nearly everywhere.

I've done demonstrations with it unloaded.

No martial artist I've demonstrated with has been able to touch me, even when standing at arm's length, before I can clear leather and drop the hammer.

Keep in mind that if you're using martial arts to defend yourself, if the other person has a gun, you are probably going to be shot. If they have a knife, you are definitely going to get cut somewhere.

If the other person is really good with a gun or knife, you'll be dead.

Its spelled Poekelan Jumindi...

Its an exotic martial art from the Indonisia area. In its higher forms it is highly lethal if you want it to be, it was originally developed specifically to counter most european martial art forms like boxing and that french one.. (Mui Thia??) its a lot like dancing and teaches you how to fight standing, laying down on the front or back, or even sitting. The self defense monauvers focus on avoiding attacks while simultaniously punshing the attacker. For instance you avoid getting punched or kicked by slapping the attack away by hitting thier foreamrs or the lower calves, sensitive ares with lots of nerve endings. Eventually with enough parries you can cause the skin to start peeling off and bleeding, and possibly make it impossible to move it because the nerves shut oof.
The French martial art is Boxe Francais Savat. Muay Thai is from Thailand.

That Poekelan Jumindi sounds kind of like the Silat and Kali we studied at Princeton Academy. No surprise. They were from South East Asia as well.

The French martial art is Boxe Francais Savat. Muay Thai is from Thailand.

That Poekelan Jumindi sounds kind of like the Silat and Kali we studied at Princeton Academy. No surprise. They were from South East Asia as well.

Would not be surprising.

If the other person is really good with a gun or knife, you'll be dead.

Check out the Systema video's I linked to. They show how you can easily disarm someone coming at you with a gun or knife, and use it against them.

Bas Rutten uses many Shootfighting techniques, if I remember correctly...

I don't know, that may be another video... :p

I suggest you watch this video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=D3K-mrlYG7Y).

It's edutainment!

Bas Rutten uses many Shootfighting techniques, if I remember correctly...

Fools, there is no best martial art, only best martial artist.

Of course, the coolest martial art is Capoeira while the lamest is Tae Kwon Do.

Wing Tsun is probably the most effective/practical self defence martial art though, seeing as how it was developed by a little Chinese woman.

I carry a Les Baer Custom 1911.

I practice with it all the time, and carry it nearly everywhere.

I've done demonstrations with it unloaded.

No martial artist I've demonstrated with has been able to touch me, even when standing at arm's length, before I can clear leather and drop the hammer.

Keep in mind that if you're using martial arts to defend yourself, if the other person has a gun, you are probably going to be shot. If they have a knife, you are definitely going to get cut somewhere.

If the other person is really good with a gun or knife, you'll be dead.

Now what if you get attacked from behind and you can't reach your precious firearm?

Check out the Systema video's I linked to. They show how you can easily disarm someone coming at you with a gun or knife, and use it against them.

I've done demonstrations with Systema advocates as well as Krav Maga.

I always drop the hammer first. Their techniques only work on people who did not have an initial intention of shooting you.

If the other person is planning to shoot you, you won't make it.

I carry a Les Baer Custom 1911.

Strange, that sounds like a gun, not a martial art.

Strange, that sounds like a gun, not a martial art.

That's correct.

That's correct.

I can't see a gun being a very good martial art. I'm sure it's great for shooting though :)

I can't see a gun being a very good martial art. I'm sure it's great for shooting though :)

I guess knowing how to carry concealed, draw quickly from different positions, shoot accurately, move to cover while shooting accurately, and clearing a jam in a hurry could be considered a martial art.

I can't see a gun being a very good martial art. I'm sure it's great for shooting though :)

It's excellent for self-defense.

you' know they do have something called "self defense classes" rather than a martial art

I for one suggest taking up the ancient combat discipline of running really, really fast :p

Yeh, but unfortunately sometimes those "self-defence" classes are a few techniques lifeted from a Martial Art (and often the techniques are ones that aren't likely to work in real life)

As for running fast, what if there's nowhere to run to (eg. a group are blocking you from going anywhere) or you aint fast enough?

Aye. That's why out of all of my recommendations I prefer bo-jitsu. Having the staff keeps people at a much greater distance than up close, and makes me feel safer as it is harder for them to pull a knife on me. The staff is one of the best parry and block weapons in the world, methinks. Much better than using a sword or a mace or what have you.

It may seem idealistic, but I'd prefer not to use a weapon, even the attacker turns out to have a hidden weapon such as a knife (hey I grew up with violence, not trying to be cocky but I aint scared of knives. Problem is I didn't learn to defend against multiple attacks properly or some very skilled fighters)

The high kicks are used in tournaments. The average kick is aimed above the belt. Trust me, anything you see in those videos is highly stylised and geared to gaining points during sparring events.

You can easily use a mid-range turning kick that goes low and high thus forcing you opponent to lower his hands so you can hit higher up. The objective is to make you opponent lower his/her defences.

It's really a matter of chaining together the right set of kicks and punches. Not everything works in everyday life but there are combos that can be lethal in combat, especially when you know where to hit.

The objective with TKD is to know where your opponent is the weakest and strike there.

I would not use a high kick unless it was the "ice pick" style kick and it went to the chin of the person attacking me.

Even if they grab your leg, remember, this takes their hands and leaves yours free. Two fingers right to the eyes. Fall back, roll and you can kick while on the ground.

Even above the belt is too high. Trust me, I've been in a fight with a karateka (quite a good one actually) and I floored him nearly every time he tried a kick (without even sweeping) - and the times I didn't was because I was too slow or didn't pull hard enough, but I still managed to grab his leg virtually every time (it was the low kicks I didn't do anything to). Saying that, against an inexperienced fight an initial high kick to the head can be useful (I've done it). But if you try it a second time, there's a good chance of leg-grabbing. Also maybe I just had a dodgy instructor, but he was teaching an armlock technique and said something along the lines of "if it doesn't work, use more strangth" - what if you're not strong? Isn't it generally the point of Martial Arts to teach self-defence skills to people who are NOT strong?

Best self-defence is not being an arsehole to other people. Other than that if you put in the time to practice the basics over and over again almost any martial art will do.

I disagree. Some styles of karate I've seen are a load of rubbish. Kenyukai for instance, where you can see what the attack is likely to be before it happens. Also watch the video link that's been posted - repetition over and over doesn't cut it. Here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053&q=Aliveness)

I'd vote for Aikido, but I think you really must be quite good at it in order to be able to use it effectively.

It would seem that way. Even at least one aikido site I been on lets people know it takes a long time for aikido to be good for self-defence

kick-you-in-the-head Fu.

See above :)

I recomend Jeet Kune Do. Its actually made to be for street fighting. Tae Kwon Do is pretty good too as long as you don't get grappled in which case you will be at a roughly equal level (probably better, since you will be in good shape from the martial arts.)

A lot of people think that if you are skilled in a non-grappling martial arts, you will get thrashed on the ground. No, you are just at a minimum be equal to the other person assuming you are not grappling with a bunch of people walking out of a judo classroom. ITF TKW also has some anti-grapple moves too, that get you out of holds and get them on the ground (or in some other even worse position.)



Agreed, you don't throw big pretty kicks in an actual fight. There are some kicks which even when caught dont really do much. I remeber my friend insisted that he could catch and neutralize any of my kicks, so I threw a nice slow sidekick so he could catch it...and it did nothing, even at slow speeds. My leg muscles are considerably stronger than his arm muscles.

I bet most people could have hurt you from you doing a slow sidekick. Not to boast, but I'm willing to bet I could. Also his leg muscles may have been strong enough, he could have swept you. P.S. re Jeet Kune Do, see this Here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053&q=Aliveness)

Run-and-hide-do, the way of the running and hiding.

See above re. running. And if there's nowhere to hide... wtf then?
Generally running is a good idea but 1., I want to be better able to protect others and 2., knowing some good fighting skills is a good back-up plan. Oh and 3., what if they're faster runners?

Wing Chun, Aikido, Krav Maga and so on. I've done Wing Chun. It's really good. Krav Maga might be the best though for the fact that it involves situational awareness training and active practice (and it is designed to be as lethal and efficient as possible). Other martial arts practitioners are catching up nowadays, but traditional martial arts still suffer from the problem that they entail little more than the repetition of certain techniques. Most arts can be lethal, if combined with the appropriate amount of practical skill. Here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053&q=Aliveness) is something to illustrate what I mean.

That video makes a lot of sense.

Can't be bothered to read the whole thread, but I'd personally go for three different techniques, namely:

Systema, russian special ops. martial art, no fancy stuff but damn effective. I belive the Spetznas units use it, if I remember correctly.

Krav Maga, israeli martial art. Highly effective and uses all dirty tricks to survive. Developed by the IDF.

and finally

Shoot-fighting, very effective style combining the advantages of Muay-Thai and Catch Wrestling. "Don't box with a boxer, don't wrestle a wrestler."

My 2c

I'd rather not use dirty trick unless 100% necessary for survival - I'd rather win a fight because I'm good, not because I cheat. Call me old-fashioned if ya want.

Colt .45 will take down any Kung-fu move bustin' foo' any day.

Slight problem: This is the UK. Though there have been a few exceptions, we generally don't like shooting people here. Plus carrying guns generally aint legal here anyway, with very specific exceptions.

Best Martial Art for realistic self-defence?

I had thought maybe wing chun, but after seeing some videos it looks like the "multiple attack" training is seriously unrealistic. Gangs do NOT fight you one by one, each waiting for their turn patiently.

I say Wing Chun. But I have studied it so I base my opinion on that not videos...the difference is huge.


I have participated in MMA demonstrations for police and Federal law enforcment on the dangers of knives.

I never met a police officer or fed who could unholster his weapon on the defense before our head in charge of the demo could cross 20 feet and cut them to pieces. Again this isnt soley wing chun here.

Of course, this means that it is a real demonstration and not the guy is drawing the gun first...because as any gun owner knows you cant walk around slapping Iron because someone looks funny. Any one of the guys could have beat him if they were the aggressor. Its the reflex gap, nearly impossible to beat. The man in motion first has the advantage, so I call bullshit on someone who says they can draw a weapon at arms reach before an ATTACKER can get them...maybe they can draw a weapon before a DEFENDER can stop them...but those are two very different situations.

Dan Inansanto knife demonstrations are very clear aboutthe reality of getting cut...and a lot of assholes will try to tell you it isnt that bad.

They are wrong.

It's excellent for self-defense.

Whilst a firearm may be a relatively simple and effective self-defense, it sort of leaves your attacker, well dead. More often than not.

You're telling me you're willing to shoot and kill whatever punk decides to take a swing at you?

Its the reflex gap, nearly impossible to beat. The man in motion first has the advantage, so I call bullshit on someone who says they can draw a weapon at arms reach before an ATTACKER can get them...maybe they can draw a weapon before a DEFENDER can stop them...but those are two very different situations.

Sorry, the person in all the demonstrations I've been in is the aggressor, and has the option to attack at will at arm's length.

I can draw and drop the hammer in about 0.16 seconds.

If the gun had rounds in it, I could empty it (with the timer starting at the draw) in a bit over 1 and a half seconds.

Try again.

I'd rather not use dirty trick unless 100% necessary for survival - I'd rather win a fight because I'm good, not because I cheat. Call me old-fashioned if ya want.




There is no such thing as a dirty trick. Old fashioned fighters used "dirty tricks" all the time. If you're not on the mat anything goes. Hell, "dirty tricks" even make their way into the boxing ring all the time. If you're going to fight you might as well fight to win.

Sorry, the person in all the demonstrations I've been in is the aggressor, and has the option to attack at will at arm's length.

I can draw and drop the hammer in about 0.16 seconds.

If the gun had rounds in it, I could empty it (with the timer starting at the draw) in a bit over 1 and a half seconds.

Try again.

I dont need to try again. I am calling you a liar. Flatout.

You cant. Unholster your weapon against a trained attacker at arms length when they have intiated the motion to which you are responding.
Maybe some Tae Kwon DO mut with his first black, but not some one who trained to fight.

My kids could beat you to that weapon.

You are lying. Try again.

Even above the belt is too high. Trust me, I've been in a fight with a karateka (quite a good one actually) and I floored him nearly every time he tried a kick (without even sweeping) - and the times I didn't was because I was too slow or didn't pull hard enough, but I still managed to grab his leg virtually every time (it was the low kicks I didn't do anything to). Saying that, against an inexperienced fight an initial high kick to the head can be useful (I've done it). But if you try it a second time, there's a good chance of leg-grabbing. Also maybe I just had a dodgy instructor, but he was teaching an armlock technique and said something along the lines of "if it doesn't work, use more strangth" - what if you're not strong? Isn't it generally the point of Martial Arts to teach self-defence skills to people who are NOT strong?
You had a lousy instructor then.

I was taught that it isn't always strength that can let you win but how you concentrate your use of force and where you hit the person. It's also a matter of timing and other factors. Strength is irrelevant if you can't land a good solid hit that takes into account resistance and other factors such as your size versus theirs.

There is a simple reason why you chain attacks - people don't expect to defend against multiple attacks that are timed to aim at different areas.

Yes the belt seems high but consider this, most people expect weaker looking people to hit low but you hit high, force them to change where they defend then you make a swift blow to the leg. Or alternatively, you can hit low, make them lower their hands, hit high and fast. Speed accounts for more because speed can do more damage than strength if you can catch them off guard.

I'm not a very big woman; average size. I took on three guys bigger than me in high school, hitting one of them in the nose by faking him out with a kick first then simply hitting him with the back of my fist. They backed off. I was a low-ranking green belt when I did that.

Being fast can make up for lack of strength.

Also being taught theory can help because you learn more than just how to hit; you learn what the hit can do and where it is most effective.

I dont need to try again. I am calling you a liar. Flatout.

You cant. Unholster your weapon against a trained attacker at arms length when they have intiated the motion to which you are responding.
Maybe some Tae Kwon DO mut with his first black, but not some one who trained to fight.

My kids could beat you to that weapon.

You are lying. Try again.

Sorry, I've done it here in the DC area at multiple dojos against many different masters and instructors.

I carry a Les Baer Custom 1911.

I practice with it all the time, and carry it nearly everywhere.

I've done demonstrations with it unloaded.

No martial artist I've demonstrated with has been able to touch me, even when standing at arm's length, before I can clear leather and drop the hammer.

Keep in mind that if you're using martial arts to defend yourself, if the other person has a gun, you are probably going to be shot. If they have a knife, you are definitely going to get cut somewhere.

If the other person is really good with a gun or knife, you'll be dead.

And if I am driving in a tank then your little pea shooter is as worthless as your bragging about owning a gun.

The point of martial arts is not to be able to single handedly take on a trained government military with your bare hands, neither are most people planning on being able to take out assailants armed with guns intent on killing you. Its to be able to take on other people who are using their bare hands and win against them.

And if I am driving in a tank then your little pea shooter is as worthless as your bragging about owning a gun.

The point of martial arts is not to be able to single handedly take on a trained government military with your bare hands, neither are most people planning on being able to take out assailants armed with guns intent on killing you. Its to be able to take on other people who are using their bare hands and win against them.

I carry it precisely because I am defending against people using their bare hands, and winning, even if there are many of them.

94% of violent crime in the US is carried out by people using no weapon but their bare hands.

See the odds?

It's also legal for me to use it in such a situation.

Sorry, I've done it here in the DC area at multiple dojos against many different masters and instructors.

What part of me calling you a liar did you not understand.

You can tell me you against Inansanto or Nichols if you want to ...I have seen what men whose lives depend on their weapons could against elderly men with knives at 20 ft.

You are simply lying.

Its pure kinesiology and nueral response...its science not theory.

I don't know, that may be another video... :p

Well, it certainly looks like some of the popular "bouncer punches" which are common in Shootfighting...

What part of me calling you a liar did you not understand.

You can tell me you against Inansanto or Nichols if you want to ...I have seen what men whose lives depend on their weapons could against elderly men with knives at 20 ft.

You are simply lying.

Its pure kinesiology and nueral response...its science not theory.

Sorry. Would you care to test the theory? If you're so confident that you'll win, I'll use real rounds in the gun.

One on one, muay thai would be an excellent martial art for self-defense. Unless, of course, the guy was armed, in which case it would probably be better to use purely self-defense techniques to disarm the man.

But in the case that you're facing the average idiot, a decent muay thai practitioner would slaughter them in a very short time.

No martial artist I've demonstrated with has been able to touch me, even when standing at arm's length, before I can clear leather and drop the hammer.

Right, well, you're assuming that the person you're defending yourself against is going to fight fair. That he's going to walk up to you and say "Howdy-doo, good sir, I'm going to punch you in the face and take your money. Defend yourself!" Demonstrations do not reflect the real world.

And if I am driving in a tank then your little pea shooter is as worthless as your bragging about owning a gun.

The point of martial arts is not to be able to single handedly take on a trained government military with your bare hands, neither are most people planning on being able to take out assailants armed with guns intent on killing you. Its to be able to take on other people who are using their bare hands and win against them.

No.

That isnt the point of Martial Arts. Read a book.

Sorry. Would you care to test the theory? If you're so confident that you'll win, I'll use real rounds in the gun.

I would love to.

Okay. Skib and Remote. For the sake of NSG, I demand that you meet up and put each other to the test. Record the event and put it up on Youtube for all to see.

Well, it certainly looks like some of the popular "bouncer punches" which are common in Shootfighting...

Shhh...The fairies are calling...

*wanders away because Bolol has no freaking idea what "shootfighting" exactly is*

One on one, muay thai would be an excellent martial art for self-defense. Unless, of course, the guy was armed, in which case it would probably be better to use purely self-defense techniques to disarm the man.

But in the case that you're facing the average idiot, a decent muay thai practitioner would slaughter them in a very short time.



Right, well, you're assuming that the person you're defending yourself against is going to fight fair. That he's going to walk up to you and say "Howdy-doo, good sir, I'm going to punch you in the face and take your money. Defend yourself!" Demonstrations do not reflect the real world.

Exactly

I say Wing Chun. But I have studied it so I base my opinion on that not videos...the difference is huge.


I have participated in MMA demonstrations for police and Federal law enforcment on the dangers of knives.

I never met a police officer or fed who could unholster his weapon on the defense before our head in charge of the demo could cross 20 feet and cut them to pieces. Again this isnt soley wing chun here.

Of course, this means that it is a real demonstration and not the guy is drawing the gun first...because as any gun owner knows you cant walk around slapping Iron because someone looks funny. Any one of the guys could have beat him if they were the aggressor. Its the reflex gap, nearly impossible to beat. The man in motion first has the advantage, so I call bullshit on someone who says they can draw a weapon at arms reach before an ATTACKER can get them...maybe they can draw a weapon before a DEFENDER can stop them...but those are two very different situations.

Dan Inansanto knife demonstrations are very clear aboutthe reality of getting cut...and a lot of assholes will try to tell you it isnt that bad.

They are wrong.

A normal person may not draw first. A criminal might. Use your wing chun mized thing against that :)

Okay. Skib and Remote. For the sake of NSG, I demand that you meet up and put each other to the test. Record the event and put it up on Youtube for all to see.

Cool. I get a box cutter, he gets his gun.

Where do you want me to cut him first?

Colt .45 will take down any Kung-fu move bustin' foo' any day.
Unless the Kung-fu move bustin' foo' takes your gun away before you get a chance to use it.

There is no such thing as a dirty trick. Old fashioned fighters used "dirty tricks" all the time. If you're not on the mat anything goes. Hell, "dirty tricks" even make their way into the boxing ring all the time. If you're going to fight you might as well fight to win.

Quit contradictiong yourself already:

"There is no such thing as a dirty trick"
"Old fashioned fighters used "dirty tricks" all the time"

I've won fights before without dirty tricks (even against my bro and sis fighting me at the same time, but they weren't exactly great fighters at the time)

I disagree. Some styles of karate I've seen are a load of rubbish. Kenyukai for instance, where you can see what the attack is likely to be before it happens. Also watch the video link that's been posted - repetition over and over doesn't cut it. Here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053&q=Aliveness)



Not very impressed by the video. If you don't practice making something work repeatedly you won't be able to do it when it really matters. Too many people waste their time learning lots of techniques because it makes them feel they are making progress.

I am not going to dismiss any martial art as a load of rubbish just from watching them.

You had a lousy instructor then.

I was taught that it isn't always strength that can let you win but how you concentrate your use of force and where you hit the person. It's also a matter of timing and other factors. Strength is irrelevant if you can't land a good solid hit that takes into account resistance and other factors such as your size versus theirs.

There is a simple reason why you chain attacks - people don't expect to defend against multiple attacks that are timed to aim at different areas.

Yes the belt seems high but consider this, most people expect weaker looking people to hit low but you hit high, force them to change where they defend then you make a swift blow to the leg. Or alternatively, you can hit low, make them lower their hands, hit high and fast. Speed accounts for more because speed can do more damage than strength if you can catch them off guard.

I'm not a very big woman; average size. I took on three guys bigger than me in high school, hitting one of them in the nose by faking him out with a kick first then simply hitting him with the back of my fist. They backed off. I was a low-ranking green belt when I did that.

Being fast can make up for lack of strength.

Also being taught theory can help because you learn more than just how to hit; you learn what the hit can do and where it is most effective.

Being fast does matter (as does technique of course and be able to adapt if something you try doesn't work), but if you aim a high kick at me, I can promise you I'll grab it. Saying that, if you were a lot smaller than someone or a lot weaker-looking, you might (just might) get away with a high kick.

I also forgot to mention a brilliant one I learned in a karate class ages ago. Dunno what it's called but you sorta jump in the air whilst kicking with one leg (so the attacker goes for that) and whilst in the air, suddenly switch to the other leg and get him/her right in the face/head.

Not very impressed by the video. If you don't practice making something work repeatedly you won't be able to do it when it really matters. Too many people waste their time learning lots of techniques because it makes them feel they are making progress.

I am not going to dismiss any martial art as a load of rubbish just from watching them.

Do not fear man, who practices 1000 techniques. Fear man, who practices one technique 1000 times.

I carry it precisely because I am defending against people using their bare hands, and winning, even if there are many of them.

94% of violent crime in the US is carried out by people using no weapon but their bare hands.

See the odds?

It's also legal for me to use it in such a situation.

Oh yeah, if its legal to carry a gun and you want it to defend yourself, go for it. It doesn't make martial arts obsolete though, since most people are not packing heat, even less so where I live.

Not very impressed by the video. If you don't practice making something work repeatedly you won't be able to do it when it really matters. Too many people waste their time learning lots of techniques because it makes them feel they are making progress.

I am not going to dismiss any martial art as a load of rubbish just from watching them.

He's not saying don't practise repeatedly. He's saying don't JUST do that - don't be dead. He's right in my opinion - you can practice a static set of techniques for ages, but if the oppoent starts moving/resisting, you could be pretty much stuffed. Saying that though, I do think he's a bit unfair, as Martial Arts often have (moving) sparring competitions and even though the other person is using judo, in judo there is resistance in free fighting (or whatever it's called, where it's still judo but you can resist)

A normal person may not draw first. A criminal might. Use your wing chun mized thing against that :)

What do think I would do? Stand there? Maybe try to out run the bullets?

If you see a gun you fight. Or at least I do.

What do think I would do? Stand there? Maybe try to out run the bullets?

If you see a gun you fight. Or at least I do.

Ya but you were saying the gun wasn't already in the open, it wasn't drawn already. If it's drawn already, you sure wing chun would work then?

My strategy would be to run forwards looking psycho. Might get shot, but I'd be laughing my arse off before I died :)

Being fast does matter (as does technique of course and be able to adapt if something you try doesn't work), but if you aim a high kick at me, I can promise you I'll grab it. Saying that, if you were a lot smaller than someone or a lot weaker-looking, you might (just might) get away with a high kick.

I also forgot to mention a brilliant one I learned in a karate class ages ago. Dunno what it's called but you sorta jump in the air whilst kicking with one leg (so the attacker goes for that) and whilst in the air, suddenly switch to the other leg and get him/her right in the face/head.

It's jumping switch kick. Usually it's done going forward. It's nasty.

The key is tricking you opponent into think you're going to do one thing but you do another.

Why do you think boxers use the front jab? It's a set-up. You let you opponent think one thing and you do another.

Hence why weaker people can rely on speed. Trickery and speed can make up for lack of strength. So can knowing the best place to strike your opponent.

He's not saying don't practise repeatedly. He's saying don't JUST do that - don't be dead. He's right in my opinion - you can practice a static set of techniques for ages, but if the oppoent starts moving/resisting, you could be pretty much stuffed. Saying that though, I do think he's a bit unfair, as Martial Arts often have (moving) sparring competitions and even though the other person is using judo, in judo there is resistance in free fighting (or whatever it's called, where it's still judo but you can resist)

Agreed - you do need sparring as well.

Do not fear man, who practices 1000 techniques. Fear man, who practices one technique 1000 times.

Yup.

Nichols used to say something like that.

No.

That isnt the point of Martial Arts. Read a book.

I am reading One Hundred Years of Solitude, it doesn't seem to be very relevant to martial arts though.

I think maybe I should have described it as "a reason people take martial arts." I am aware of all the spiritual stuff, but most people don't actually join so they can learn more about meditation.

Quit contradictiong yourself already:

"There is no such thing as a dirty trick"
"Old fashioned fighters used "dirty tricks" all the time"

I've won fights before without dirty tricks (even against my bro and sis fighting me at the same time, but they weren't exactly great fighters at the time)

I'm not contradicting myself. I put it in quotes to indicate that what you call dirty tricks others just accept as part of fighting. Sure you can win a fight without what you might consider dirty tricks, but why not use them? For example, I'll bet you consider putting your thumb in someone's eye a dirty trick. Last time someone in the parking lot of a bar tried to tackle me a thumb in the eye got him to let go and saved me the trouble of grappling on the ground. I'm fairly certain I could have won without it, but the eye gouge made it a whole lot easier and quicker.

Ya but you were saying the gun wasn't already in the open, it wasn't drawn already. If it's drawn already, you sure wing chun would work then?

My strategy would be to run forwards looking psycho. Might get shot, but I'd be laughing my arse off before I died :)

Hell no I am not sure it would work everytime, but it has worked before.


You can run from a knife...you cant run from a gun.


And yes my first trick most of the time is to run away.
No shame in not getting hurt.

Thanks for all the replies dudes and duettes.

I think... I'm going to practice judo more (aint practiced in ages) but try to do it for free and try to find a willing participant :), because of the impact flooring someone bigger than you has on people :)...

...and maybe take aikido when I can afford it (because it would seem that MAYBE it's good for multiple attack defence once you've learned enough, though I'm not sure judging from seeing some videos today)...

...and take up a cheap but disciplined karate class...

...and make sure I practice stuff against "live" opponents

I am reading One Hundred Years of Solitude, it doesn't seem to be very relevant to martial arts though.

I think maybe I should have described it as "a reason people take martial arts." I am aware of all the spiritual stuff, but most people don't actually join so they can learn more about meditation.

Traditional Martial Arts for most of the world were not designed for spiritual ends...they were completely mercenary.

Juijitsu, Wing Chun, Kali, Escrima, Espada y Daga, Pencak Silat,

Only later were they corrupted by spiritualism.

Kendo was not the art of the Swordsmen...it was the art of the Swordsmen philospher.

All the Ways and Paths crap came later.

Thanks for all the replies dudes and duettes.

I think... I'm going to practice judo more (aint practiced in ages) but try to do it for free and try to find a willing participant :), because of the impact flooring someone bigger than you has on people :)...

...and maybe take aikido when I can afford it (because it would seem that MAYBE it's good for multiple attack defence once you've learned enough, though I'm not sure judging from seeing some videos today)...

...and take up a cheap but disciplined karate class...

...and make sure I practice stuff against "live" opponents

Box.

Boxing builds great hand speed.

Practice Jui jitsu (japanese or brazilian) it is more mercenary then Judo.

If you can find a an aikijutsu school take that instead of Aikido.

Plus I am telling you Wing Chun is designed for multiple attackers...and it is designed to be learned quickly. For a single style of options Wing Chun will give the best foundation to study everything else with.

Traditional Martial Arts for most of the world were not designed for spiritual ends...they were completely mercenary.

Juijitsu, Wing Chun, Kali, Escrima, Espada y Daga, Pencak Silat,

Only later were they corrupted by spiritualism.

Kendo was not the art of the Swordsmen...it was the art of the Swordsmen philospher.

All the Ways and Paths crap came later.

Your right. In fact, it all clicked in my head why the first thing I said was wrong. Yeah, okay, martial arts WAS intended to resist professional government armies. When I said that I was thinking more along the line of a modern military with assault rifles and planes.

Best Martial Art for realistic self-defence?

I had thought maybe wing chun, but after seeing some videos it looks like the "multiple attack" training is seriously unrealistic. Gangs do NOT fight you one by one, each waiting for their turn patiently.

Kajukenbo

a very good mix of karate, judo, kenpo and chinese boxing.

Your right. In fact, it all clicked in my head why the first thing I said was wrong. Yeah, okay, martial arts WAS intended to resist professional government armies. When I said that I was thinking more along the line of a modern military with assault rifles and planes.

OK.
Cool.
You see the point then.
Modern Martial arts in most areas has been watered down to "Sport Fighting" so you have to be careful what you study and who you study with.

I went to a Tang Soo Do school to check it out and the INstructor flat out said "If you are here to learn to fight then go down the street to the Mantis school" I was in total shock. Then I left and went down the street toteh Mantis school. They were happy to slap me around for a few afternoons.
But it was founded by soldiers...not wannebe gurus.

See above re. running. And if there's nowhere to hide... wtf then?
Generally running is a good idea but 1., I want to be better able to protect others and 2., knowing some good fighting skills is a good back-up plan. Oh and 3., what if they're faster runners?

A true master of run-and-hide-fu can hide anywhere! And out run a run-away train!

Shhh...The fairies are calling...

*wanders away because Bolol has no freaking idea what "shootfighting" exactly is*

Hehe... Well, I guess it falls under the MMA class of fighting styles, combining the most effective tricks of wrestling(not the spandex version shown on tv, I'm talking about the Alexandr Alexandrovich Karelin style), Muay Thai and dirty streetfight tricks.

Reading up on Bas Rutten, however, I've learned that he doesn't use shootfighting specificly, my bad. He does use many of the tricks involved though :)

I use Long Wang Dong. The way of aggressively striking first with my penis.

I use Long Wang Dong. The way of aggressively striking first with my penis.

I love the counter-attack to that: U Ah Fookd - the way of having you charged with sexual assault or rape, depending on what you did with your penis. My favourite counter though is Yuur Bitz Wil Ert - the way of kicking you in the balls then continuing to kick the shit out of you

If you only knew the power of the penis. Tis useless, you are beaten!

Not if I snap it (you gonna sexually assault me, I think I'm perfectly within my rights to snap your penis) :)

I love the counter-attack to that: U Ah Fookd - the way of having you charged with sexual assault or rape, depending on what you did with your penis. My favourite counter though is Yuur Bitz Wil Ert - the way of kicking you in the balls then continuing to kick the shit out of you

If you only knew the power of the penis. Tis useless, you are beaten!

Rocket launcher or shotgun.

:rolleyes:

If you only knew the power of the penis. Tis useless, you are beaten!

Tell that to the practicioners of Cu Ti Toff founded by Lorena Bobbit.

i would say KFM, it a jkd derivitive, chek the site out http://www.keysikfm.com/en/index.php

To me, no one martial art is best-- it's all what you do with it. Certainly, there are some martial arts that are not good for self-defense, but once you eliminate the ones that are not designed for it, you have many perfectly viable options.

When people ask me what "style" I learn, I really should not answer, because though I mostly trained under a small dojo for a, for lack of a better word, system called Budo Mushin Kai (founded by an ex-marine who, in hist travels, learned from very many different systems and took the parts that he found worked best), I do not consider myself a stylist in that system.

We are always encouraged to learn anything and everything we can from any style and adapt it for personal use. The "style" itself has no specific focus-- it's not a grappling style or a striking style or a weapons style. It's a "do what works for you" style. I'm more of a striker, but I have a good basic knowledge of grappling, enough to get me out of a streetfight with your average untrained attacker.

Though, admittedly, I often do a little worse sparring other martial artists, because I'm not willing to use... "dirty tricks" in a friendly sparring match. Wouldn't want to seriously harm anybody.

Tell that to the practicioners of Cu Ti Toff founded by Lorena Bobbit.

:eek: :p

Odd... most of my posts so fa rhave been smileys.

Of course, the coolest martial art is Capoeira while the lamest is Tae Kwon Do.
Capoeira in the strictest sense is not a defensive martial art. It may be useful as one if (and only if) you're already quite able, but it has significant deficiences vis-a-vis other defence-oriented martial arts.

Wing Tsun is probably the most effective/practical self defence martial art though, seeing as how it was developed by a little Chinese woman.
It's highly efficient. I would opt for the Krav Maga or Aikido in its stead though.

That video makes a lot of sense.
It does. I think the point of it is that for any martial art to be effective it takes more than just flawless knowledge of its techniques.

I'd rather not use dirty trick unless 100% necessary for survival - I'd rather win a fight because I'm good, not because I cheat. Call me old-fashioned if ya want.
Depends on what you consider "cheating". In a street fight, there are no rules but insuring your survival. Distracting someone in order to deliver a more lethal move in such a case is a good idea.

*snip*
I agree with this.

Thanks for all the replies dudes and duettes.

I think... I'm going to practice judo more (aint practiced in ages) but try to do it for free and try to find a willing participant :), because of the impact flooring someone bigger than you has on people :)...

...and maybe take aikido when I can afford it (because it would seem that MAYBE it's good for multiple attack defence once you've learned enough, though I'm not sure judging from seeing some videos today)...

...and take up a cheap but disciplined karate class...

...and make sure I practice stuff against "live" opponents
You should do whichever art you think you will adapt to best. Try out a few. All things being equal though, I'd recommend something along the lines of the Krav Maga or Aikido (if you have the time and inclination). Often, once you've specialised enough, it's a good idea to do another art, in order to be all the more unpredictable. Aikido is a so-called "passive" martial art, and is complemented by other ones such as koto and kyoto ryu (the bone martial arts, part of Ninjutsu). As the video I put up shows, what matters most is being able to actually anticipate what will happen in a real fight, versus simply applying the techniques against a passive, predictable opponent. Aikido at advanced levels can also be used to initiate attacks from demonstrations I've seen.

On kicks, since I see they've come up, they are useful, so long as you distract your opponent before delivering them (perhaps with another move).

Meh, by my book anything that trains your reflexes and allows you to incapacitate your opponent with minimal contact is good - anything is better than nothing.

I did Kyokushinkai karate for a few years, theres a lot of emphasis on throwing and taking down opponents before they can hit you, and multiple target training. However, there's also a dependence on learning rigid forms (kata), which to me is somewhat pointless. Some branches require you to compete and win fights in full-contact tournaments in order to progress past a certain grade, so you get practical experience if that's your thing. The system is also very heirarchical and takes on a quasi-military format too, with camps that require bizarre endurance tests. I bailed on it when i got to that stage. Some people might get some perverse enjoyment out of that stuff, but I don't.

The takedowns I learned are good for the lulz when given the opportunity by overconfident and/or drunken friends however. :)

My instructor in MMA ...not professional MMA but simply self defense(MMA is the only labe lt ogive it) loved dirty tricks, he would encourage us to do anything we could think of, to bring it all to the mat. We would spar constantly...taken from Wing Chun and Muay Thai instead of doing a move over and over in a dead fashion would go live, he would start us out and then after he knew we understood the lesson it was up to us to use what he had shown us...if we could.

I was uncomfortable wearing pads, and a cup so I wasnt forced to...I explained I would be more likely to protect my groin withouth the cup I got 3 times in 2 years in the groin...
I miss those days, being in really good shape, and the friendships you get from it.


But dirty tricks...
He would love to work with us when we pulled something he hadnt seen...or **claimed** he hadnt seen.

Nothing ever worked on him. I was very good friends with two of his other students and one lived with me, the other worked for me.

So would spar almost all waking hours seven days a week...even if it was just slap boxing each other...he taught us drilss we could do to develope reflexes.

But dirty tricks...

I remember the first time I jerked his shirt ove his head(he would spar with each student individually, as well as each student sparring with each other student) I thought "I got something for your ass" we locked up and were grappling for position, i went right into hockey mode and snatched his shirt over his head...he didnt even remove the shirt...he just beat me down blind.

On another occasion I used that collar choke...material we hadnt covered yet, so I get one hand in his collar(we always wore street clothes no fake uniforms) twisted it and wrapped it around his throat, then with my other hand I reahc between the arteries and compressed the wind pipe.

I thought yet again "I got your ass", I watched him reach dow for my throat(we were on the ground I was on my back he was on his knees above my head) I think...shweet he isnt going to punch me he is going to try to choke me out...I have already applied my chokes and he will pass out before I do.

Wrong.

I touches me, just touches me...I have like this seizure i loose almost total control of my body, I let go of his collar, his wind pipe, I go fetal.

Immediately I jump to my feet the entire class is stopped.

I demand to know what he did.
He just smiles and says "Not yet".

I went home with roomate who watched him do it...and spent six hours redoing the situation and never figured it.

He would always tell us to never feel that anything was "dirty", throwing shit in someones eyes,spitting in their face, pinching, biting, sucker punching, groin shots, eye jabs, didnt matter.

When we grappled he would always pause in demonstration and say "of course right here I would just bite him"

Orthodoxy was loathed in his classes.

it was fun. Those were a few very good years.

I used to study Hapkido (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapkido). The school I studied at was entirely focused on real world application. I doubt anyone from that school has ever placed well in a competition because the style of fighting that wins a competition will get you killed in a real world fight. Some of the instructors in my school grew up in ‘bad’ parts of town and have a lot of practical experience in street fighting. Getting jumped by half a dozen guys with knives and baseball bats was not just an academic consideration for them. As you can imagine, the focus is on actual survival rather than sticking to any ‘proper forms’ or whatnot.

Since hapkido (at least as taught by the school I went to – there are a lot of different flavors to hapkido) can be used to practically disable and restrain someone without causing damage, it became very popular among bouncers and police. Some guy on PCP can be far stronger than you and will not feel any pain – thus relying on strength or just hurting them enough is not going to work. A kick to the groin may drop any man, but only if he feels it. Bouncers could use various grapples to restrain a drunk guy and walk him out of the bar – it is good for whatever level you need.

‘Dirty tricks’ are a must – outside of grade school, any fight must be taken as a serious and life threatening event. You should not hesitate to do anything to protect yourself against an attack.

Those who suggest some weapon based art – do you actually carry a staff with you everywhere you go? Unless you always have a staff with you everywhere you go, it really isn’t practical for self-defense. It might be fun as a sport, but practical defense it is not.

It has been a few years since I was training, so I am considering going back to continue hapkido or going for Krav Maga.

I used to study Hapkido (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapkido). The school I studied at was entirely focused on real world application. I doubt anyone from that school has ever placed well in a competition because the style of fighting that wins a competition will get you killed in a real world fight. Some of the instructors in my school grew up in ‘bad’ parts of town and have a lot of practical experience in street fighting. Getting jumped by half a dozen guys with knives and baseball bats was not just an academic consideration for them. As you can imagine, the focus is on actual survival rather than sticking to any ‘proper forms’ or whatnot.

Since hapkido (at least as taught by the school I went to – there are a lot of different flavors to hapkido) can be used to practically disable and restrain someone without causing damage, it became very popular among bouncers and police. Some guy on PCP can be far stronger than you and will not feel any pain – thus relying on strength or just hurting them enough is not going to work. A kick to the groin may drop any man, but only if he feels it. Bouncers could use various grapples to restrain a drunk guy and walk him out of the bar – it is good for whatever level you need.

‘Dirty tricks’ are a must – outside of grade school, any fight must be taken as a serious and life threatening event. You should not hesitate to do anything to protect yourself against an attack.

Those who suggest some weapon based art – do you actually carry a staff with you everywhere you go? Unless you always have a staff with you everywhere you go, it really isn’t practical for self-defense. It might be fun as a sport, but practical defense it is not.

It has been a few years since I was training, so I am considering going back to continue hapkido or going for Krav Maga.

My MMA instructor was real big on Hapkido I know he had studied quite extensively and siad almost the exact thing as this
‘Dirty tricks’ are a must – outside of grade school, any fight must be taken as a serious and life threatening event. You should not hesitate to do anything to protect yourself against an attack.

His was more like dont fight unless you are ready to kill the other person.
Because nothing short of needing to defend your life or the life another is worth fighting over...and if that is what you are fighting for then damn whatever consequences come afterward. Better you alive to tell the story then the other guy.

I wish I could remember who his Hapkido instructor was, he was some little Korean guy...my instructor was very impressed by the guy. Since i was a grown man when I studied with this guy, I was impressed by anyone who impressed him.

As for a weapon based art, I do carry a blade everywhere I go.

‘Dirty tricks’ are a must – outside of grade school, any fight must be taken as a serious and life threatening event. You should not hesitate to do anything to protect yourself against an attack.

Yep, I was taught that too. It's very true advice. There are plenty of areas that cause extreme pain when hit, and not everyone who is willing to use force is aware of them and protects them adequately. However - I was also taught that not every fight can be treated as "life threatening", and always to use "reasonable" force. So axe-kicking someone in the neck once you have them on the ground is generally out, if you can wind them and prevent them from giving chase to you instead. :)

I was always taught to keep attacking until they stop moving.
Moving.

Go for one of those martial arts that the bad guy always uses, where if he hits you in the chest with the palm of his hand your ribs shatter.

God I wish I could do that.

My MMA instructor was real big on Hapkido I know he had studied quite extensively and siad almost the exact thing as this
‘Dirty tricks’ are a must – outside of grade school, any fight must be taken as a serious and life threatening event. You should not hesitate to do anything to protect yourself against an attack.

His was more like dont fight unless you are ready to kill the other person.
Because nothing short of needing to defend your life or the life another is worth fighting over...and if that is what you are fighting for then damn whatever consequences come afterward. Better you alive to tell the story then the other guy.

I wish I could remember who his Hapkido instructor was, he was some little Korean guy...my instructor was very impressed by the guy. Since i was a grown man when I studied with this guy, I was impressed by anyone who impressed him.

As for a weapon based art, I do carry a blade everywhere I go.

These are the guys I learned from http://www.rimshapkido.com
I learned a lot from them; not so much a particular style and 'forms', but how to fight and use the situation to my advantage. I could restrain some dumb drunk in a bar trying to pick a fight without harming him, or I could quickly use unconventional tactics to defend myself against a bunch of guys who jump me while walking down the street.

Oh yeah - one comment I liked a lot was that the last guy standing did not necessarily win the fight. If I get kneed in the balls and go down, though in a lot of pain now, I will probably be fine by tomorrow. His hyperextended elbow, dislocated shoulder, and shattered wrist will take ages to heal.


Unfortunately many of us do not live and work in jurisdictions where we can carry a weapon (at least not legally - so we are back to 'if you outlaw X, only outlaws will have X' - and don't kid yourself, they do).

Gee, just pick one that suits your needs, body type, built etc. Won't do much good if you lack upper body strength if you try something that has locks and emphazises on ground combat.

Oh yeah, that's Jun Fan Gang Foo,... the basis of Bruce Lee's philosophy, use anything that's suited for you.

In street fights, you should always fight dirty, throw some sand into your opponent's face, run in a zig zag motion, hit sensitive areas, do anything to survive,... running away's also a good option.

These are the guys I learned from http://www.rimshapkido.com
I learned a lot from them; not so much a particular style and 'forms', but how to fight and use the situation to my advantage. I could restrain some dumb drunk in a bar trying to pick a fight without harming him, or I could quickly use unconventional tactics to defend myself against a bunch of guys who jump me while walking down the street.

Oh yeah - one comment I liked a lot was that the last guy standing did not necessarily win the fight. If I get kneed in the balls and go down, though in a lot of pain now, I will probably be fine by tomorrow. His hyperextended elbow, dislocated shoulder, and shattered wrist will take ages to heal.


Unfortunately many of us do not live and work in jurisdictions where we can carry a weapon (at least not legally - so we are back to 'if you outlaw X, only outlaws will have X' - and don't kid yourself, they do).

My weapons are illegal as hell... if carried incontext of being weapons.
I carry a box cutter for work...no matter where I work.
I carry a tire checker for work(a tire checker is a club about from elbow to palm made of wood with a metal plug in it), I carry a hammer...because my starter is screwy and I need to hit it sometimes...no matter what car I am driving.

When at all possible I will carry a real knife...but never those fancy "Combat" type knives. The Filipinos will tell you it doesnt matter how long the blade it it matters how sharp it is.

I have a littel pocket knive that locks, my wifes nail file is bigger, but it will cut. and you wont see it in my hand until I want you too.

I have never carried a gun, though I have owned them.

When I was younger I carreid a length of band saw blade in my car, and I also carried the infamous pool ball in a sock.

Anything is a weapon, keep a brick in your car. I almost forgot the weapon I carry all the time and will tell a police officer is a weapon are my keys.
Its a long chain of key chains and all my old keys. Its gets longer with each year, and it will hurt if I hit you with it across the knuckles, or throw it in your face.

I find legging it effective ;)

My weapons are illegal as hell... if carried incontext of being weapons.
I carry a box cutter for work...no matter where I work.
I carry a tire checker for work(a tire checker is a club about from elbow to palm made of wood with a metal plug in it), I carry a hammer...because my starter is screwy and I need to hit it sometimes...no matter what car I am driving.

When at all possible I will carry a real knife...but never those fancy "Combat" type knives. The Filipinos will tell you it doesnt matter how long the blade it it matters how sharp it is.

I have a littel pocket knive that locks, my wifes nail file is bigger, but it will cut. and you wont see it in my hand until I want you too.

I have never carried a gun, though I have owned them.

When I was younger I carreid a length of band saw blade in my car, and I also carried the infamous pool ball in a sock.

Anything is a weapon, keep a brick in your car. I almost forgot the weapon I carry all the time and will tell a police officer is a weapon are my keys.
Its a long chain of key chains and all my old keys. Its gets longer with each year, and it will hurt if I hit you with it across the knuckles, or throw it in your face.

If you wrap it around your knuckles won't it hurt you as well? Most likely hurt them more, of course, because you're aiming at a weak area most likely (face, neck) but I'd use anything before using something that hurt me while using it.

...Though, admittedly, I often do a little worse sparring other martial artists, because I'm not willing to use... "dirty tricks" in a friendly sparring match. Wouldn't want to seriously harm anybody.

...doesn't that tell you something? If I was learning some self-defence system or Martial Art system that didn't work in sparring unless I used dirty tricks, I would reckon it was a pretty crappy system

Capoeira in the strictest sense is not a defensive martial art. It may be useful as one if (and only if) you're already quite able, but it has significant deficiences vis-a-vis other defence-oriented martial arts.


It's highly efficient. I would opt for the Krav Maga or Aikido in its stead though.


It does. I think the point of it is that for any martial art to be effective it takes more than just flawless knowledge of its techniques.


Depends on what you consider "cheating". In a street fight, there are no rules but insuring your survival. Distracting someone in order to deliver a more lethal move in such a case is a good idea.

Dunno about your country, but there "rules" here. You're only allowed to use reasonable self-defence. Hence if someone hits you, doing something perverted like grabbing their balls will get you arrested.

My instructor in MMA ...not professional MMA but simply self defense(MMA is the only labe lt ogive it) loved dirty tricks, he would encourage us to do anything we could think of, to bring it all to the mat. We would spar constantly...taken from Wing Chun and Muay Thai instead of doing a move over and over in a dead fashion would go live, he would start us out and then after he knew we understood the lesson it was up to us to use what he had shown us...if we could.

I was uncomfortable wearing pads, and a cup so I wasnt forced to...I explained I would be more likely to protect my groin withouth the cup I got 3 times in 2 years in the groin...
I miss those days, being in really good shape, and the friendships you get from it.


But dirty tricks...
He would love to work with us when we pulled something he hadnt seen...or **claimed** he hadnt seen.

Nothing ever worked on him. I was very good friends with two of his other students and one lived with me, the other worked for me.

So would spar almost all waking hours seven days a week...even if it was just slap boxing each other...he taught us drilss we could do to develope reflexes.

But dirty tricks...

I remember the first time I jerked his shirt ove his head(he would spar with each student individually, as well as each student sparring with each other student) I thought "I got something for your ass" we locked up and were grappling for position, i went right into hockey mode and snatched his shirt over his head...he didnt even remove the shirt...he just beat me down blind.

On another occasion I used that collar choke...material we hadnt covered yet, so I get one hand in his collar(we always wore street clothes no fake uniforms) twisted it and wrapped it around his throat, then with my other hand I reahc between the arteries and compressed the wind pipe.

I thought yet again "I got your ass", I watched him reach dow for my throat(we were on the ground I was on my back he was on his knees above my head) I think...shweet he isnt going to punch me he is going to try to choke me out...I have already applied my chokes and he will pass out before I do.

Wrong.

I touches me, just touches me...I have like this seizure i loose almost total control of my body, I let go of his collar, his wind pipe, I go fetal.

Immediately I jump to my feet the entire class is stopped.

I demand to know what he did.
He just smiles and says "Not yet".

I went home with roomate who watched him do it...and spent six hours redoing the situation and never figured it.

He would always tell us to never feel that anything was "dirty", throwing shit in someones eyes,spitting in their face, pinching, biting, sucker punching, groin shots, eye jabs, didnt matter.

When we grappled he would always pause in demonstration and say "of course right here I would just bite him"

Orthodoxy was loathed in his classes.

it was fun. Those were a few very good years.

See my post above

I used to study Hapkido (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapkido). The school I studied at was entirely focused on real world application. I doubt anyone from that school has ever placed well in a competition because the style of fighting that wins a competition will get you killed in a real world fight. Some of the instructors in my school grew up in ‘bad’ parts of town and have a lot of practical experience in street fighting. Getting jumped by half a dozen guys with knives and baseball bats was not just an academic consideration for them. As you can imagine, the focus is on actual survival rather than sticking to any ‘proper forms’ or whatnot.

Since hapkido (at least as taught by the school I went to – there are a lot of different flavors to hapkido) can be used to practically disable and restrain someone without causing damage, it became very popular among bouncers and police. Some guy on PCP can be far stronger than you and will not feel any pain – thus relying on strength or just hurting them enough is not going to work. A kick to the groin may drop any man, but only if he feels it. Bouncers could use various grapples to restrain a drunk guy and walk him out of the bar – it is good for whatever level you need.

‘Dirty tricks’ are a must – outside of grade school, any fight must be taken as a serious and life threatening event. You should not hesitate to do anything to protect yourself against an attack.

Those who suggest some weapon based art – do you actually carry a staff with you everywhere you go? Unless you always have a staff with you everywhere you go, it really isn’t practical for self-defense. It might be fun as a sport, but practical defense it is not.

It has been a few years since I was training, so I am considering going back to continue hapkido or going for Krav Maga.

Again, see post above

Dunno about your country, but there "rules" here. You're only allowed to use reasonable self-defence. Hence if someone hits you, doing something perverted like grabbing their balls will get you arrested.

You'd be surprised how fast a fight can end when you've got the other guy by the balls. Cuius testiculo habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.

Seriously, though, there's a law against dirty tricks? If a fight starts, everyone has to go toe-to-toe, no hitting below the belt, eye gouging, etc.?

These are the guys I learned from http://www.rimshapkido.com
I learned a lot from them; not so much a particular style and 'forms', but how to fight and use the situation to my advantage. I could restrain some dumb drunk in a bar trying to pick a fight without harming him, or I could quickly use unconventional tactics to defend myself against a bunch of guys who jump me while walking down the street.

Oh yeah - one comment I liked a lot was that the last guy standing did not necessarily win the fight. If I get kneed in the balls and go down, though in a lot of pain now, I will probably be fine by tomorrow. His hyperextended elbow, dislocated shoulder, and shattered wrist will take ages to heal.


Unfortunately many of us do not live and work in jurisdictions where we can carry a weapon (at least not legally - so we are back to 'if you outlaw X, only outlaws will have X' - and don't kid yourself, they do).

That "if you outlaw this, only outlaws will have it" is the kind of backwards thinking that gets kids in the USA shot. By making something illegal (or illegal except in specific circumstances), you make it more difficult to get hold of. Look at the amount of shootings in the UK compared to USA

My weapons are illegal as hell... if carried incontext of being weapons.
I carry a box cutter for work...no matter where I work.
I carry a tire checker for work(a tire checker is a club about from elbow to palm made of wood with a metal plug in it), I carry a hammer...because my starter is screwy and I need to hit it sometimes...no matter what car I am driving.

When at all possible I will carry a real knife...but never those fancy "Combat" type knives. The Filipinos will tell you it doesnt matter how long the blade it it matters how sharp it is.

I have a littel pocket knive that locks, my wifes nail file is bigger, but it will cut. and you wont see it in my hand until I want you too.

I have never carried a gun, though I have owned them.

When I was younger I carreid a length of band saw blade in my car, and I also carried the infamous pool ball in a sock.

Anything is a weapon, keep a brick in your car. I almost forgot the weapon I carry all the time and will tell a police officer is a weapon are my keys.
Its a long chain of key chains and all my old keys. Its gets longer with each year, and it will hurt if I hit you with it across the knuckles, or throw it in your face.

Just reminded me. Though offensive weapons are illegal, there's lots of legal stuff that can be used as weapons. Keys, pens, pencils believe it or not, lots of stuff

You'd be surprised how fast a fight can end when you've got the other guy by the balls. Cuius testiculo habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.

Seriously, though, there's a law against dirty tricks? If a fight starts, everyone has to go toe-to-toe, no hitting below the belt, eye gouging, etc.?

Yeh and you'd be surprised how much I'd want to kill you.

Sexual assault is NEVER O.K. unless you're pretty sure the other person wants to sexually attack you. And it gets you ARRESTED and CHARGED.

Grappling has never failed me. It's limited against more than one person, but the one time it happened to me I just used one of them as a shield until I could just outrun them. Double armbar, and I was twisting pretty hard so they kept their distance. The only dangerous area is closing the distance on someone. I got a baseball bat to the ribs because of that. Normally I don't hit someone once I have them down, but I punched him until he was limp.

If you're going to fight dirty be ready to accept the retaliation if you fail.

Yeh and you'd be surprised how much I'd want to kill you.

Sexual assault is NEVER O.K. unless you're pretty sure the other person wants to sexually attack you. And it gets you ARRESTED and CHARGED.

Does a punch or kick to the balls count as sexual assault for you? or is it just the grabbing? I'm pretty sure that its acceptable here if your reasons are for self defence

Does a punch or kick to the balls count as sexual assault for you? or is it just the grabbing? I'm pretty sure that its acceptable here if your reasons are for self defence

Touching someone else's genitals without their consent is sexual assault. I didn't see punching or kicking mentioned in the law.

Again, it's NEVER acceptable to sexually assault someone unless it's to prevent a sexual attack on you.

If you think it is, suppose you're fighting a woman, and she's wearing a skirt - would you stick a finger up her pussy because it hurts a lot there when the woman's not went and if you do it forceful and far up?

If not, why different for male genitals? You're a hypocrit if you say one is alright but the other isn't.

And like I said, under the law, sexual assault is no "reasonable" defence for a physical attack

trapping,for self defense.

Yeh and you'd be surprised how much I'd want to kill you.

Sexual assault is NEVER O.K. unless you're pretty sure the other person wants to sexually attack you. And it gets you ARRESTED and CHARGED.

There's a big difference between sexual assault and assaulting the other guy's sexual organ, or at least it's understood as such over here. I avoid fights, and in the situations where I couldn't talk my way out or get away immediately, that maneuver has immobilized men that outweighed me by over a hundred pounds long enough for me to get away. I don't fight to win, I fight to run away, after all, and most men can't run well after severe groin trauma.

Touching someone else's genitals without their consent is sexual assault. I didn't see punching or kicking mentioned in the law.

Again, it's NEVER acceptable to sexually assault someone unless it's to prevent a sexual attack on you.

If you think it is, suppose you're fighting a woman, and she's wearing a skirt - would you stick a finger up her pussy because it hurts a lot there when the woman's not went and if you do it forceful and far up?

If not, why different for male genitals? You're a hypocrit if you say one is alright but the other isn't.

Maybe it is hypocritical but I don't have a problem with that.

I'm look at this http://www.rightsofwomen.org.uk/pdfs/sexual_assault.pdf and it says that there has to be a sexual motive behind the action in order for it to be classed as sexual assault. The intention behind it is important in this judgement

There's a big difference between sexual assault and assaulting the other guy's sexual organ, or at least it's understood as such over here. I avoid fights, and in the situations where I couldn't talk my way out or get away immediately, that maneuver has immobilized men that outweighed me by over a hundred pounds long enough for me to get away. I don't fight to win, I fight to run away, after all, and most men can't run well after severe groin trauma.

Yeh, but there's not a big difference between sexual assault and sexual assault. again, would you touch a woman's genitals in "self-defence" in a way that would hurt?

Kicking/kneeing the balls is more effective anyway - quicker and easier to execute than trying to grab someone's genitals.

If you grab a person's genitals (male or female), it's sexual assault. Simple as. No "only on women". No "not if it hurts". It's sexual assault.

Maybe it is hypocritical but I don't have a problem with that.

I'm look at this http://www.rightsofwomen.org.uk/pdfs/sexual_assault.pdf and it says that there has to be a sexual motive behind the action in order for it to be classed as sexual assault. The intention behind it is important in this judgement

And how exactly can you "judge" that touching a guy's genitals to hurt him is not sexual assault and touching a woman's genitals is? I'm willing to bet you stick your finger up a woman's vagina, you're going down, whatever your motive. Why should men have any less rights?

Yeh, but there's not a big difference between sexual assault and sexual assault. again, would you touch a woman's genitals in "self-defence" in a way that would hurt?

Kicking/kneeing the balls is more effective anyway - quicker and easier to execute than trying to grab someone's genitals.

If you grab a person's genitals (male or female), it's sexual assault. Simple as. No "only on women". No "not if it hurts". It's sexual assault.

In your opinion or by law?

That "if you outlaw this, only outlaws will have it" is the kind of backwards thinking that gets kids in the USA shot. By making something illegal (or illegal except in specific circumstances), you make it more difficult to get hold of. Look at the amount of shootings in the UK compared to USA

Youre right... just like drugs are so hard to get hold of :rolleyes:

There are more 'open air drug markets' in DC than pharmacies.
Tell me again how something being illegal makes it hard for criminals to get a hold of it?

And how exactly can you "judge" that touching a guy's genitals to hurt him is not sexual assault and touching a woman's genitals is? I'm willing to bet you stick your finger up a woman's vagina, you're going down.

If a guy jumps on you and you grab him by the balls to slow him enough for you to escape thats self defence. If you stick around to have a good fondle while you're there you've moved into the realm of sexual assault.

If you stick your finger into a womens vagina you've put in a hell of a lot more effort to bring about those events for a lot less effect

Oi.... but is that a good enough explanation of Poekelan for you?

Grand thanks.


I suggest this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eruSesyHAo

In your opinion or by law?

Both. The law says something I agree with. And by using reasoning - if it's not OK to do to a woman, there's no logic in saying it's OK to do to a man.

If a guy jumps on you and you grab him by the balls to slow him enough for you to escape thats self defence. If you stick around to have a good fondle while you're there you've moved into the realm of sexual assault.

If he's got you in a hold, then yes it's self-defence because it's reasonble to assume he's about to drag you somewhere and sexually attack you. If it looks like a physical attack, then grabbing his privates is sexual assault.

And from the website you linked to and selectively quoted: "that the particular act is,
by its nature, sexual..." - by its nature, touching someone's genitals deliberately is sexual

Both. The law says something I agree with. And by using reasoning - if it's not OK to do to a woman, there's no logic in saying it's OK to do to a man.



If he's got you in a hold, then yes it's self-defence because it's reasonble to assume he's about to drag you somewhere and sexually attack you. If it looks like a physical attack, then grabbing his privates is sexual assault.

And from the website you linked to and selectively quoted: "that the particular act is,
by its nature, sexual..." - by its nature, touching someone's genitals deliberately is sexual

I believe it also says "In short, the term 'sexual' is not fixed. It will be determined by what happened and what was actually in the mind of the offender at the time he committed the act"

I believe it also says "In short, the term 'sexual' is not fixed. It will be determined by what happened and what was actually in the mind of the offender at the time he committed the act"

Such as "I don't care how you feel about me touching your genitals, as long as I hurt you"?

Would you consider it to NOT be sexual assault if a man was being attacked by a woman and he stuck his finger in her vagina as previously described in order to "defend" himself?

If no, then you have no logic for saying sexual assault of men is OK in "self defence"

Yeh, but there's not a big difference between sexual assault and sexual assault. again, would you touch a woman's genitals in "self-defence" in a way that would hurt?
I wouldn't simply because it isn't as effective. A guy hit in the genitals hurts a lot more than a woman hit in the same place, sometimes enough to end a fight in one shot. It's a matter of ending the fight by immobilizing my attacker quickly and a guy's genitals are simply a weak point I use if necessary.
Kicking/kneeing the balls is more effective anyway - quicker and easier to execute than trying to grab someone's genitals.
There isn't always room or leverage for a good groin shot, especially if the other guy has you in a hold. I'm not strong and punching or kicking has never worked for me, but grabbing and twisting doesn't require strength or room to move and has the same, if greater, effect.
If you grab a person's genitals (male or female), it's sexual assault. Simple as. No "only on women". No "not if it hurts". It's sexual assault.
If I grab any part of any person during a fight, it's to cause them pain, not to sexually assault them. The genitals are no different simply because of sexual use, they're only different because they can be used to immobilize the other guy more effective than twisting an arm or leg.

Such as "I don't care how you feel about me touching your genitals, as long as I hurt you"?

Would you consider it to NOT be sexual assault if a man was being attacked by a woman and he stuck his finger in her vagina as previously described in order to "defend" himself?

If no, then you have no logic for saying sexual assault of men is OK in "self defence"

Exactly. If they attack me they have forfeited their right to me respecting their personal opinions on sexual assault

I wouldn't be very happy with a man that targeted that part of the female anatomy but, if he could prove his intention was self defence, then he is fine in the eyes of the law.

I wouldn't simply because it isn't as effective. A guy hit in the genitals hurts a lot more than a woman hit in the same place, sometimes enough to end a fight in one shot. It's a matter of ending the fight by immobilizing my attacker quickly and a guy's genitals are simply a weak point I use if necessary.

You've obviously never had your genitals attacked. The women I know who have tell me it hurts a lot. In any case, if it DID hurt as much as grabbing a guy's balls, would you do it?



There isn't always room or leverage for a good groin shot, especially if the other guy has you in a hold. I'm not strong and punching or kicking has never worked for me, but grabbing and twisting doesn't require strength or room to move and has the same, if greater, effect.

Kneeing requires hardly any strength, grabbing requires getting your had in the right place at the right time AND squeezing at the moment of "impact". Also grabbing can have little effect if not done right (my friend has -with consent- done it to me and it was easy enough to grab her hand and get it away before she really hurt me) - a knee or kick gives immediate pain.



If I grab any part of any person during a fight, it's to cause them pain, not to sexually assault them. The genitals are no different simply because of sexual use, they're only different because they can be used to immobilize the other guy more effective than twisting an arm or leg.

Then answer the first question above. And genitals clearly are different - someone grabbing your genitals (whatever their reason) without your consent generally makes a person feel violated (including guys). Grabbing someone's privates is, in law and in practice, sexual assault.

You're probably only arguing because you're a pervert.

Exactly. If they attack me they have forfeited their right to me respecting their personal opinions on sexual assault

That's like saying they've forfeited their right to life - basically they've forfeited everything if they attack you.

No, under the law, you can only use reasonable self-defence. Grabbing someone's genitals is not reasonable against a physical attack.

I wouldn't be very happy with a man that targeted that part of the female anatomy but, if he could prove his intention was self defence, then he is fine in the eyes of the law.

No, see above. He would be arrested and charged. And why would you not be happy with him doing that if you're happy for women to go around grabbing men's genitals?

Muay Thai combined with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu = <333

You've obviously never had your genitals attacked. The women I know who have tell me it hurts a lot. In any case, if it DID hurt as much as grabbing a guy's balls, would you do it?
I've had my genitals attacked, and I know just how much a solid blow to the groin will do to a guy. I've asked the women I know, and they've said it hurts them much less, but I've never fought a woman, so I wouldn't know firsthand. If it hurt women as much as it does men, then in a fight I'd do the same thing.

Kneeing requires hardly any strength, grabbing requires getting your had in the right place at the right time AND squeezing at the moment of "impact". Also grabbing can have little effect if not done right (my friend has -with consent- done it to me and it was easy enough to grab her hand and get it away before she really hurt me) - a knee or kick gives immediate pain.
I'm not going to say it'll work in every single case, but if the opportunity presents itself, I take it. Kneeing, likewise, is situational, since you have to be directly in front of your opponent with both legs to the side to hit the groin right. The usefulness of any move in a fight is limited by how the fight goes, arguing how little chance you'll have to use it makes little difference as to whether you do get the opportunity.

Then answer the first question above. And genitals clearly are different - someone grabbing your genitals (whatever their reason) without your consent generally makes a person feel violated (including guys). Grabbing someone's privates is, in law and in practice, sexual assault.
Getting beaten bloody also tends to make one feel violated, so I leave notions of violation behind in a fight, since someone will be violated by the end whether or not their gentials were grabbed.

You're probably only arguing because you're a pervert.

I'm arguing because I had an arm and two ribs broken in a bar fight, and since have decided to leave behind any notions of boundaries in fights. I'd rather escape intact by being a dirty, cheating little bastard than end up in a hospital again because some asshole wants to brawl.

I've had my genitals attacked, and I know just how much a solid blow to the groin will do to a guy. I've asked the women I know, and they've said it hurts them much less, but I've never fought a woman, so I wouldn't know firsthand. If it hurt women as much as it does men, then in a fight I'd do the same thing.

Then you're just a pervert, not a sexist pervert. It's become clear that it's pointless arguing with someone who would, considering all of the options available and were it not for the fact that the opposite could have been the case if so prescribed in a particular fascination with such an arbitary account of exchange, it would have been possible to include all of the relevant details in a way which does not undermine a particular view of something that is considered by a particular person to be of such obscure properties.

Thus there is no point continuing to speak to you at this moment in time. Except to say having your privates touched makes you feel a lot more violated (and for a lot longer, ask people who've been sexually assaulted) than getting hit.

OK, I odnt know where every body is from so I cant speak on international law.

I can speak for Michigan, Arizona and tennessee.

IN a physical altercation "attacking" genitals isnt sexual assault...only a total dumb ass would think that. By law a sexual assault is where the aggressor is seeking sexual gratification. Is in a state of arousal or is proven to be sexually aroused by said behavior. Grabbing a waitresses crotch is sexual assault. Grabing a woman's snatch because she is trying to cut you isnt.
You are not acting in a sexual manner you trying to inflict harm, not recieve pleasure. Even if I jump you for no reason and do nothing but kick you in the balls until you fall then squeeze them like plums until they pop once you have fallen it isnt sexual assault.

I mean damn have any of you ever been arrested for assault? Charged with it? Or are you blathering about your private concept of it?

I kicked a woman dead in her gash and the police called it "Mutual Combatants" and told everyone to go home. Mind you I was being assaulted by more then one person, and so was my wife. Touching genitals isnt automatically sexual...damn.

Go to law school, make friends with people who actually have gotten into real grown up fights or dont make up "facts" about the law.
Either way, grow up. Comparing being struck in the genitals to sexual assault is fucking stupid and an insult to anyone who has ever been sexually assaulted.

OK, I odnt know where every body is from so I cant speak on international law.

I can speak for Michigan, Arizona and tennessee.

IN a physical altercation "attacking" genitals isnt sexual assault...only a total dumb ass would think that. By law a sexual assault is where the aggressor is seeking sexual gratification. Is in a state of arousal or is proven to be sexually aroused by said behavior. Grabbing a waitresses crotch is sexual assault. Grabing a woman's snatch because she is trying to cut you isnt.
You are not acting in a sexual manner you trying to inflict harm, not recieve pleasure. Even if I jump you for no reason and do nothing but kick you in the balls until you fall then squeeze them like plums until they pop once you have fallen it isnt sexual assault.

I mean damn have any of you ever been arrested for assault? Charged with it? Or are you blathering about your private concept of it?

I kicked a woman dead in her gash and the police called it "Mutual Combatants" and told everyone to go home. Mind you I was being assaulted by more then one person, and so was my wife. Touching genitals isnt automatically sexual...damn.

Go to law school, make friends with people who actually have gotten into real grown up fights or dont make up "facts" about the law.

1. I never said attacking genitals was against the law. I correctly said touching them (to touch, you use your hand idiot) was.

2. Yes it is sexual assault to do what you described.

3. Your last attempt at argument proves you're an idiot.

Then you're just a pervert, not a sexist pervert. It's become clear that it's pointless arguing with someone who would, considering all of the options available and were it not for the fact that the opposite could have been the case if so prescribed in a particular fascination with such an arbitary account of exchange, it would have been possible to include all of the relevant details in a way which does not undermine a particular view of something that is considered by a particular person to be of such obscure properties.

I appreciate the name-calling, really. Everything after "pervert" is so convoluted that the best I can get out if it is you feel this discussion is pointless, and there I agree with you. Obviously, your focus in a fight would be on the dignity of the person trying to beat you senseless, whereas mine would be on disabling them fast enough to escape using whatever means necessary. It's no surprise we wouldn't see eye to eye.

Thus there is no point continuing to speak to you at this moment in time. Except to say having your privates touched makes you feel a lot more violated (and for a lot longer, ask people who've been sexually assaulted) than getting hit.
No, hitting has left a much greater impression, physically, mentally, and emotionally, on me than having my privates touched ever could. It may be very different for you, but trying to argue subjective notions of violation would be another pointless exercise, so I'll leave the discussion as well.

I appreciate the name-calling, really. Everything after "pervert" is so convoluted that the best I can get out if it is you feel this discussion is pointless, and there I agree with you. Obviously, your focus in a fight would be on the dignity of the person trying to beat you senseless, whereas mine would be on disabling them fast enough to escape using whatever means necessary. It's no surprise we wouldn't see eye to eye.


No, my focus would be on winning the fight without being a sick pervert.

No, hitting has left a much greater impression, physically, mentally, and emotionally, on me than having my privates touched ever could. It may be very different for you, but trying to argue subjective notions of violation would be another pointless exercise, so I'll leave the discussion as well.

You would not know unless you've been sexually assaulted. I've known women and men who've been sexually assaulted, and it fucks them up more than punches do.

You'd do well to leave the discussion. You're only begging the question anyway.

Dunno about your country, but there "rules" here. You're only allowed to use reasonable self-defence. Hence if someone hits you, doing something perverted like grabbing their balls will get you arrested.

What country is that?

Because it isnt sexual or perverted to snatch a hold someone oysters to get a reaction.



I will be happy to give your jurisdiction a phone call and ask.
Hence ending any question as to the reality of your statement, so where is this?

1. I never said attacking genitals was against the law. I correctly said touching them (to touch, you use your hand idiot) was.

2. Yes it is sexual assault to do what you described.

3. Your last attempt at argument proves you're an idiot.

Listen idiot.
Grabbing is attacking as well.

Now answer my above question or admit your full of shit.

I studied Hapkido for years, and I'd recommend it (in certain forms) as being realistic in purpose, but more importantly, not just an art for kids and young adults. Softer styles are actually generally more effective, and certainly more accessible than harder styles.

Waiting for the Country you live in fucko? You want me to call the police inthe capital or is there a specific other city you would prefer just name it.

Prove me an idiot.

Where am I calling? I can look the number up myself...just give a country.

Thats what I thought.

Come on you little weasel, you want to insult people just give up a location and I will be happy to give a call and post that you are indeed telling the truth.

What country is that?

Because it isnt sexual or perverted to snatch a hold someone oysters to get a reaction.



I will be happy to give your jurisdiction a phone call and ask.
Hence ending any question as to the reality of your statement, so where is this?

Yes it is. Greater Manchester, England. Police: 0161 872 5050 plus whatever the country code is from your country (I think it's usually 44)

Oh and any UK website for teenagers (I was one once you know) will have under the sexual assault information, something like "it's not OK for someone to touch you in those places [genital areas], even if a friend does it "to get a reaction" - it's sexual assault"

In fact I'm pretty sure some US ones do as well

Grabbing someone's privates is sexual assault, simple as. Why are there a few morons on here who find that concept so difficult to grasp?

Yes it is. Greater Manchester, England. Police: 0161 872 5050 plus whatever the country code is from your country (I think it's usually 44)

Oh and any UK website for teenagers (I was one once you know) will have under the sexual assault information, something like "it's not OK for someone to touch you in those places [genital areas], even if a friend does it "to get a reaction" - it's sexual assault"

In fact I'm pretty sure some US ones do as well

Grabbing someone's privates is sexual assault, simple as. Why are there a few morons on here who find that concept so difficult to grasp?

Well, I invite anyone from the UK to check me on this in defense of Multiland, because according to the young offcier I spoke to in the Greater Manchester Police department the act of grabing the genitals of man in the course of self defense to subdue him is NOT sexual assault and he said he had never heard anything like that even suggested.

It only cost me six dollars to say fuck you Multiland, you are indeed a stone cold liar.

EDIT if calling from the states dial 01144-161-872-5050.

Grabbing someone's privates is sexual assault, simple as. Why are there a few morons on here who find that concept so difficult to grasp?

No it isnt, the police here agree, the police there agree you are the only moron.
I am all done here.

Well, I invite anyone from the UK to check me on this in defense of Multiland, because according to the young offcier I spoke to in the Greater Manchester Police department the act of grabing the genitals of man in the course of self defense to subdue him is NOT sexual assault and he said he had never heard anything like that even suggested.

It only cost me six dollars to say fuck you Multiland, you are indeed a stone cold liar.

EDIT if calling from the states dial 01144-161-872-5050.

As long as someone has the will, and ability to continue to attack you, you're usually allowed by law to fight back. But if you're talking about a general fight and you just happened to crush the doods testicals to win, that's sexual assault :P
If he comes at you with a 2x4 and you kick him clean in the crotch, that's self defense.
The way you phrased it to this young manchester indicates the other fighter is attacking you in a way where you could call self-defense in court. Even than it's flimsy that you'd stand a chance to win. Best just to run, and if you can't make sure the attacker says he's going to harm you in some way, than beat his ass down.
:P Unless you'd like to be calling a judge a "Stone Cold Liar" as he sends you to jail and auctions your stuff off to pay for your "Overreaction"

Buuut if some guy just flipped out and attacked you, than you'd have every right in the world to fondle and crush.

Also: Tae-kwan-do is not a suitable martial art when compared with others, including kickboxing, muay-thai, ju-jutsu(My apologies if I'm butchering these)
It's the most bad-assed game of tag ever though if you've gone to a competition. That's the problem, the entire art is composed to quickly hit someone, but doesn't teach how to hit very hard or follow up a struck opponent.

As long as someone has the will, and ability to continue to attack you, you're usually allowed by law to fight back. But if you're talking about a general fight and you just happened to crush the doods testicals to win, that's sexual assault :P
If he comes at you with a 2x4 and you kick him clean in the crotch, that's self defense.
The way you phrased it to this young manchester indicates the other fighter is attacking you in a way where you could call self-defense in court. Even than it's flimsy that you'd stand a chance to win. Best just to run, and if you can't make sure the attacker says he's going to harm you in some way, than beat his ass down.
:P Unless you'd like to be calling a judge a "Stone Cold Liar" as he sends you to jail and auctions your stuff off to pay for your "Overreaction"

No, I said "If I tell my student who is english to grab an attacker by the genitals to subdue him is he going to be charge with sexual assault?"

After he got done laughing he said "I have never heard of such a thing, I cant imagine it ever being ruled that way."

Well, I invite anyone from the UK to check me on this in defense of Multiland, because according to the young offcier I spoke to in the Greater Manchester Police department the act of grabing the genitals of man in the course of self defense to subdue him is NOT sexual assault and he said he had never heard anything like that even suggested.

It only cost me six dollars to say fuck you Multiland, you are indeed a stone cold liar.

EDIT if calling from the states dial 01144-161-872-5050.

1. That's not what you asked. You asked about grabbing for a reaction.

2. I decided to phone myself. Strange I got a different answer. I got a lot of questions about why I was asking something like that, but the answer was: yes, grabbing someone's genitals usually results in a charge of sexual assault if the person makes an official complaint, so long as there's enough evidence. And that's almost word-for-word.

2. As I stated, it would be self-defence if it was REASONABLE - for example against a sexual attack. It's not reasonable to use sexual attacks against physical attacks.

No it isnt, the police here agree, the police there agree you are the only moron.
I am all done here.

You're just making stuff up. I would suggest everyone else ask GM Police, but they've got better things to do - like arrest perverts who go around grabbing men's balls. Oh. Like you.

As long as someone has the will, and ability to continue to attack you, you're usually allowed by law to fight back. But if you're talking about a general fight and you just happened to crush the doods testicals to win, that's sexual assault :P
If he comes at you with a 2x4 and you kick him clean in the crotch, that's self defense.
The way you phrased it to this young manchester indicates the other fighter is attacking you in a way where you could call self-defense in court. Even than it's flimsy that you'd stand a chance to win. Best just to run, and if you can't make sure the attacker says he's going to harm you in some way, than beat his ass down.
:P Unless you'd like to be calling a judge a "Stone Cold Liar" as he sends you to jail and auctions your stuff off to pay for your "Overreaction"

Buuut if some guy just flipped out and attacked you, than you'd have every right in the world to fondle and crush.

Also: Tae-kwan-do is not a suitable martial art when compared with others, including kickboxing, muay-thai, ju-jutsu(My apologies if I'm butchering these)
It's the most bad-assed game of tag ever though if you've gone to a competition. That's the problem, the entire art is composed to quickly hit someone, but doesn't teach how to hit very hard or follow up a struck opponent.

You're partly right. In very specific circumstances you could get away with grabbing the testicles (such as in the examples I provided - not the dodgy examples others have provided). But to fondle? Never, there's no way you could even TRY to claim self-defence on that. Anbd like I said, it is not reasonable to grab someone's balls in self-defence of a physical attack.

http://www.fpa.org.uk/information/factsheets/documents_and_pdfs/detail.cfm?contentid=108

The purpose also has to be sexual, which is defined as:

a reasonable person would always consider it to be so, or
if a reasonable person may consider it to be sexual, depending on the circumstances and intention.


Under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 it is an offence in England and Wales for a person intentionally to touch sexually another person without reasonable belief that they consented. Touching covers all physical contact, whether with a part of the body or anything else, or through clothing. A definition of ‘sexual’ is given in the previous section


A would say the Manchester Police officer is a reasonable person.
A sexual assault has to be sexual, not just assault. And touching genitals specifically to inflict pain on an attacker is not sexual.

Well, I invite anyone from the UK to check me on this in defense of Multiland, because according to the young offcier I spoke to in the Greater Manchester Police department the act of grabing the genitals of man in the course of self defense to subdue him is NOT sexual assault and he said he had never heard anything like that even suggested.

It only cost me six dollars to say fuck you Multiland, you are indeed a stone cold liar.

EDIT if calling from the states dial 01144-161-872-5050.

How funny would it be if the Manchester Police got their phone lines flooded with questions about the legality of grabbing someone's crotch in self defense? Especially if the calls come in from all around the world.

Anbd like I said, it is not reasonable to grab someone's balls in self-defence of a physical attack.
According to your local cops it is, its even funny.

How funny would it be if the Manchester Police got their phone lines flooded with questions about the legality of grabbing someone's crotch in self defense? Especially if the calls come in from all around the world.

He laughed his ass off, given the hour I think they might find it funny.
I also submited the question to their website, as it is quite well made... I wish our cops had such an interface.

http://www.fpa.org.uk/information/factsheets/documents_and_pdfs/detail.cfm?contentid=108





A would say the Manchester Police officer is a reasonable person.
A sexual assault has to be sexual, not just assault.

a reasonable person would always consider it to be so, or
if a reasonable person may consider it to be sexual, depending on the circumstances and intention.

And yes I agree. So the cop (the real one, not the one you made up) was right, you're wrong, you're talking bollocks, have a nice day. Using a gun in response to a punch is not considered reasonable. Neither is knifing someone, stamping on their head while they lay incapacitated on the ground, or grabbing their genitals.

How funny would it be if the Manchester Police got their phone lines flooded with questions about the legality of grabbing someone's crotch in self defense? Especially if the calls come in from all around the world.

Not very funny at all, since they have better things to do at this time of night.

Not very funny at all, since they have better things to do at this time of night.

No, it would be fucking hilarious. The cops would be talking about it for months to come.

a reasonable person would always consider it to be so, or
if a reasonable person may consider it to be sexual, depending on the circumstances and intention.

And yes I agree.
Excellent.

Excellent.

Yep twist words, it's the only way you're gonna win the argument. Oh wait, that's not actually winning.

Dunno about your country, but there "rules" here. You're only allowed to use reasonable self-defence. Hence if someone hits you, doing something perverted like grabbing their balls will get you arrested.
If they're trying to aggress you I doubt that will get you locked up.

If they're trying to aggress you I doubt that will get you locked up.

I don't, unless you've got a reasonable belief that they're going to sexually assault you first.

I don't, unless you've got a reasonable belief that they're going to sexually assault you first.
Sexually assault someone in self-defence? :p

Well, I invite anyone from the UK to check me on this in defense of Multiland, because according to the young offcier I spoke to in the Greater Manchester Police department the act of grabing the genitals of man in the course of self defense to subdue him is NOT sexual assault and he said he had never heard anything like that even suggested.

It only cost me six dollars to say fuck you Multiland, you are indeed a stone cold liar.

EDIT if calling from the states dial 01144-161-872-5050.
Wow. I draw the line at paying any amount of money to prove somebody wrong in an internet debate.

Not very funny at all, since they have better things to do at this time of night.
I take it you've never had a job that requires some sort of customer service. As much as the police do have other things to do with their time, they do have to field incoming calls, many of which are probably stupider questions than this one and the policemen who are sitting about answering these calls probably don't have the most exciting shifts so a tonne of phone calls about grabbing a guy by the cojones to escape injury would probably be entertaining.

Also, I don't have any martial arts experience and the only fighting class I took was a women's self defense course in which we were taught to pretty much do anything within reason to a potential attacker (i.e., don't like stab someone who won't remove their hand from your leg, instead bend his finger backwards, but if someone's attacking you, eye gouge, poke your keys through your fists, kick him in the nuts et c all the while yelling to attract attention). And also, I don't think that defending oneself from a sexual assault should be treated any different than defending oneself from any other sort of assault, so grabbing a guy by the nuts and twisting should be alright in either case...

MCMAP ftw.

I don't know any martial arts, but I'd guess at Krav Maga. It was invented by the IDF, it uses dirty tricks, I'm sold.

Jujitsu,
+
Army flavor.

...

That's good too. Just remember that this involves a staff, not firearms. (It's Chinese.)If it's "jitsu" it's not really Chinese, you know.

Tae kwon leep. Boot to the head.

MASTER: Who disturbs our meditation, as a pebble disturbs the stillness of
the pond?

EG: Me! Ed Gruberman!

Now what if you get attacked from behind and you can't reach your precious firearm?

Negotiation time, methinks.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12738436&postcount=3

That's like saying they've forfeited their right to life - basically they've forfeited everything if they attack you.

No, under the law, you can only use reasonable self-defence. Grabbing someone's genitals is not reasonable against a physical attack.



No, see above. He would be arrested and charged. And why would you not be happy with him doing that if you're happy for women to go around grabbing men's genitals?

You yourself said that you would only see grabbing genitals as acceptable if the attacker had sexual assault in mind. So what you're saying is it is ok to attack someone in the same way they intend to attack you. If someone is going to kill me i'll try and kill them. If someone intends to attack my body i'll attack theirs. Simple.

My reasons for your second paragraph are due to outdated chivalry and I already gave a link explaining why intention is everything

Sexual assault is done with the intent to gain sexual gratification, not to defend yourself. If a woman came at me intent on killing me, and the most effective way at the moment to subdue her would be stick my fingers in her, I'd do it. If the most effective way would be to dress her up as a french maid, handcuff her to a radiator and stick a string of anal beads up her rectum while repeatedly calling her a naughty girl, I'd do that too.

Of course if she later decided to sue me for sexual assault, it might be tricky for me to prove in courtroom that my actions were purely defensive. A relatively small number of possible situations exist where those techniques are a valid and effective method of self-defense

Subduing an attacker, no matter where you grab her or him, is self-defense. Giving them back a little extra once they are already down and you're committing an assault. Fondling them a bit in the process, that's sexual assault.

the best martial art is art of peace. musashi miyamoto once said that when faced by multiple attackers that even if they all commence at once nature will provide an order. humans all move at different speeds and reaction times.

TaeKwon-Do ftw!!!!

Although the debate on the law of sexual assault was entertaining (btw, Skibereen was clearly correct and multiland was clearly wrong...) Getting back to the point a little bit...

'Best' martial art depends upon what you want it for.

If you want to go out, meet people get fit etc... they're all pretty good.

If you want to do competition sport, then things like kickboxing, judo and so on are what you want

If you want to feel confident that you can fight off the average mugger, then they'll all give you that ability if you train regularly and diligently

NOW FOR THE REALLY SERIOUS STUFF...

If you want to seriously be able to beat the living be-jaysus out of any individual / group of individuals / fight other dedicated martial artists you should remember these rules...

1. The first rule of unarmed combat is this: don't be unarmed. The guy with the gun was right - your average gunman will quite effectively kill/incapacitate your expert martial artist over a distance of a say three metres (depending on the gun, weather conditions and so on). Any closer than that and the pendulum starts to swing in favour of the martial artist. Knives and so on have a lethal reputation ... with good reason. You can seriously maim someone with things like pencils and keys if you want to. There are martial arts that teach this stuff.

2. You should train in a mix of martial arts. All modern martial arts are, to some degree, defective. That's because they've been artificially split up. In the olden days people would train from an early age and would cover a wide range of armed and unarmed combat techniques day in, day out. So, for example, a Samurai wouldn't practice just ju-jitsu, he'd practice archery, sword work, trap-making, invading castle tactics (very useful in the modern world!), staff work and so on and so on. In modern times, if you want to be a complete martial artist, then you need to train in a variety of styles.

My recommendations...

Something that causes twisty/wrenchy pain... jujitsu, aikido, hapkido and so on

Something that causes high velocity pain and possibly dental loss or bone braking... muay thai

Something that could be re-classified as 'sneaky-jitsu'... nin-jitsu and / or systema

So... I'd recommend some muay thai, nin-jitsu/systema and brazilian ju-jitsu.

If you see a gun you fight. Or at least I do.

I'd try to talk the guy down until the moment he was distracted enough for ME to grab the gun while kicking his balls (or punching "her" breasts) and shoot him in all the painful-and-irrigated-but-not-immediately-lethal areas so I could gloat while he bled to death.

But that's just me.

On a side note, attacking someone by grabbing at their balls is a tactic I approve of. But that's because my way to fight is the dirty way. :D

Touching someone else's genitals without their consent is sexual assault. I didn't see punching or kicking mentioned in the law.

Again, it's NEVER acceptable to sexually assault someone unless it's to prevent a sexual attack on you.

If you think it is, suppose you're fighting a woman, and she's wearing a skirt - would you stick a finger up her pussy because it hurts a lot there when the woman's not went and if you do it forceful and far up?

If not, why different for male genitals? You're a hypocrit if you say one is alright but the other isn't.

And like I said, under the law, sexual assault is no "reasonable" defence for a physical attack

It's not sexual assault, because you're using a flawed metaphor. The correct metaphor would be if we were talking about whacking off a guy in a really rough and unlubricated way - it hurts, and it's the equivalent of sticking a finger up a woman's vagina in self-defense.

Yeh, but there's not a big difference between sexual assault and sexual assault. again, would you touch a woman's genitals in "self-defence" in a way that would hurt?

Kicking/kneeing the balls is more effective anyway - quicker and easier to execute than trying to grab someone's genitals.

If you grab a person's genitals (male or female), it's sexual assault. Simple as. No "only on women". No "not if it hurts". It's sexual assault.

Kicking/kneeing is the same thing as grabbing, except with grabbing you can threaten the person without actually hurting him, while kneeing is pretty much a "I've hurt you very badly" kind of situation, with no ability to threaten or defuse the situation.

The correct metaphor would be if we were talking about whacking off a guy in a really rough and unlubricated way.

I believe this particular technique was known in the Shaolin Monastery as Buddha spanks the purple dragon as it emerges from the cave

I believe this particular technique was known in the Shaolin Monastery as Buddha spanks the purple dragon as it emerges from the cave

There's seriously a ninjitsu move named something to the effect of "Monkey picks an apple" where you grab the guy's junk.

I’ve trained in Wing Chun. Its various blocks and chain punching style is fast, adaptive and efficient.

Nowt flashy.

Just punchy-punchy.

However, I’ve never been in a street fight, thank Eris, and never plan to.

Fighting is dull, idiotic and sore.

I’m happy that if some bam throws a punch at me (and if I’m sober enough!) I’ll have a good chance of blocking most of the force of the blow and, if it is entirely necessary, I could probably shock and hurt him enough to give me time to leg it.

And that knowledge gives me a boost in confidence, which in turn allows me to walk about without worrying about getting beaten up, or even to think about fighting at all, and spend more time concentrating on the finer points of life.

I take most pleasure out of practising; an excellent workout and a wonderfully relaxing series of motions.

I’ll leave the fighting to the likes of Jet Li, Donnie Yen and Bruce Lee, TYVM.

Can't be arsed reading the other replies. You know I'm right and you're just all perverts. Have a nice day perverts.

Can't be arsed reading the other replies. You know I'm right and you're just all perverts. Have a nice day perverts.

This is the single greatest post ever.

Shaq-fu.