NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2007/6/4/85631.shtml?s=ic

A poll this year by the University of Vermont's Center for Rural Studies found that 13 percent of those surveyed support secession, up from 8 percent a year before.

Wha...?

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2007/6/4/85631.shtml?s=ic



Wha...?

I think they wanna be some sorta Canada people.

Wha...?That's about the size of it.

I think they wanna be some sorta Canada people.

It's nice to plan ahead just in case Dear Leader decides to stay in office "For the duration of the emergency."

good for them I say

Vermont gets more money from the federal government than it pays in taxes, so if they go we save a billion dollars that can be given back to California or Washington.

It's nice to plan ahead just in case Dear Leader decides to stay in office "For the duration of the emergency."

I think if he did that there'd actually be some sort of reaction... meaning a flood of Americans to Canada and Europe.

I think if he did that there'd actually be some sort of reaction... meaning a flood of Americans to Canada and Europe.

No, it would be a flood of Americans heading to Washington to overthrow him.

I think if he did that there'd actually be some sort of reaction... meaning a flood of Americans to Canada and Europe.

Actually, it would be a flood of Marine bullets into the bodies of the President, the Vice President, the Cabinet, the Secret Service, and anyone else who got in the way.

Actually, it would be a flood of Marine bullets into the bodies of the President, the Vice President, the Cabinet, the Secret Service, and anyone else who got in the way.

Not to mention all the civilians exercising their Second Amendment rights on the wannabe dictator. This country might make some bad decisions, and we've done plenty of wrong things in our time, but we will never tolerate a dictator.

Vermont gets more money from the federal government than it pays in taxes, so if they go we save a billion dollars that can be given back to California or Washington.
They'll just make it back through trade. Raise the prices on Ben&Jerry's and on maple syrup.

I like the part where they compare themselves to Switzerland...Maybe that was in a Boston.com article I read.

Anyhow, I like the idea, but VT is too cold.

No, it would be a flood of Americans heading to Washington to overthrow him.

Being the first one to the chair in the oval office I would automatically claim presidency. The first two to the love seat would be Vice President and Secretary of State. The couch would hold cabinet positions while 100 chairs on the roof would claim senate positions. With their respective state taped under the chair. The house of representitives doesn't really count for anything so we'll decide that with a 700 person game of dodgeball. Last 435 standing remain in office.

I like where this government is going. :D

Actually, it would be a flood of Marine bullets into the bodies of the President, the Vice President, the Cabinet, the Secret Service, and anyone else who got in the way.

Actually, I meant people would flood in fear of that not happening, because sometimes the people make you wonder...

Not to mention all the civilians exercising their Second Amendment rights on the wannabe dictator. This country might make some bad decisions, and we've done plenty of wrong things in our time, but we will never tolerate a dictator.

That's what I like to hear.

Actually, it would be a flood of Marine bullets into the bodies of the President, the Vice President, the Cabinet, the Secret Service, and anyone else who got in the way.

Except for USMCleathernecks2, who would be jumping in front of Beloved Dear Leader while shooting back at his fellow Marines to protect the Bush heritage with a noble sacrifice.

I don't understand why such people don't just move to Canada if they hate the US so much. It's not as if we're desperately trying to keep them here; if they don't like it, they can leave.

I don't understand why such people don't just move to Canada if they hate the US so much. It's not as if we're desperately trying to keep them here; if they don't like it, they can leave.

It's as much our country as it is yours.

It's as much our country as it is yours.

No, if you're trying to secede from the country, that illustrates how you grossly under-appreciate the US. Such ingrates could leave for all I care; in fact, I even encourage them to do so.

I think if he did that there'd actually be some sort of reaction... meaning a flood of Americans to Canada and Europe.
Awe, the last thing we need is more smelly Americans infecting our culture.
I don't understand why such people don't just move to Canada if they hate the US so much. It's not as if we're desperately trying to keep them here; if they don't like it, they can leave.Isn't that what secession is? We don't like it, so we're leaving.

Meh, every once in a while California gives it a shot. One of these days you all will let us go...

No, if you're trying to secede from the country, that illustrates how you grossly under-appreciate the US. Such ingrates could leave for all I care; in fact, I even encourage them to do so.

The last time that happened, what occured?

Vermont gets more money from the federal government than it pays in taxes, so if they go we save a billion dollars that can be given back to California or Washington.
You think a state as small as Vermont actually gets a billion dollars over and above what they pay in as taxes? And even if they do, how much is a billion in terms of the yearly budget?

Meh, every once in a while California gives it a shot. One of these days you all will let us go...

Are you kidding? We need you. Red staters would starve to death without California.

Except for USMCleathernecks2, who would be jumping in front of Beloved Dear Leader while shooting back at his fellow Marines to protect the Bush heritage with a noble sacrifice.

Psyche.


I didn't think that i'd ever find a post where that was a perfectly satisfactory response

Awe, the last thing we need is more smelly Americans infecting our culture.

These would be the not-smelly types... They don't rebel, but they don't live wit' t3h badness, either.

Such ingrates could leave for all I care

Now I do believe that secessionists are trying to do just that, leave. They however don't merely want to leave US land, they want their land to leave the US.

The last time that happened, what occured?

umm...oh...I know this...Um...The Great Depression?

umm...oh...I know this...Um...The Great Depression?

Hint: 1861-1865.

Hint: 1861-1865.

Yeah, the Great Depression.

Yeah, the Great Depression.

Great Depression: late 1920s- late 1930s, depending on country

Hint: 1861-1865.
Willian Lyon Mackenzie died!

Vermont is officially cool.

Great Depression: late 1920s- late 1930s, depending on country

All those people dieing... how is that not depressing?

The last depression was the Kind of Depressing in 2001, and then the OMEGA Depression of 2004.

Psyche.


I didn't think that i'd ever find a post where that was a perfectly satisfactory response

Ladies and Gentlemen, USMC leathernecks2 has just proudly confessed to being a hardcore Bushevik, one who would give his life to protect Dubya even if he was in the process of establishing a dictatorship in the United States.

Thank you once again for proving to be a bigger traitor than Jane Fonda.

All those people dieing... how is that not depressing?

Zing.

This has been a test of the emergency Zing system. This is only a test.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled broadcast.

Ladies and Gentlemen, USMC leathernecks2 has just proudly confessed to being a hardcore Bushevik, one who would give his life to protect Dubya even if he was in the process of establishing a dictatorship in the United States.

Thank you once again for proving to be a bigger traitor than Jane Fonda.

I just said that your statement was false. Is there something wrong with you? I believe that Iraq was a mistake, neo-conservatism is dangerous, and I disagree with nearly every domestic policy of Bush's. You love strawmen don't you.

Ladies and Gentlemen, USMC leathernecks2 has just proudly confessed to being a hardcore Bushevik, one who would give his life to protect Dubya even if he was in the process of establishing a dictatorship in the United States.

Thank you once again for proving to be a bigger traitor than Jane Fonda.

Comparing some one who allegedly supports Bush to Jane Fonda shows a woeful lack of understanding about either person's position - they're practically complete opposites :confused:

Comparing some one who allegedly supports Bush to Jane Fonda shows a woeful lack of understanding about either person's position - they're practically complete opposites :confused:

Jane Fonda is reviled by the U.S. military as being a traitor who undermined their cause in Vietnam, demoralizing the troops and emboldening the opposition. USMC leathernecks 2 with his blind support of continuing the mistake in Iraq by throwing in more troops to be killed by the insurgency in a futile and failed police action is encouraging a bigger damage to the military than Fonda ever managed to achieve.

Except for USMCleathernecks2, who would be jumping in front of Beloved Dear Leader while shooting back at his fellow Marines to protect the Bush heritage with a noble sacrifice.

Psyche.


I didn't think that i'd ever find a post where that was a perfectly satisfactory response

Ladies and Gentlemen, USMC leathernecks2 has just proudly confessed to being a hardcore Bushevik, one who would give his life to protect Dubya even if he was in the process of establishing a dictatorship in the United States.

Thank you once again for proving to be a bigger traitor than Jane Fonda.

I just said that your statement was false. Is there something wrong with you? I believe that Iraq was a mistake, neo-conservatism is dangerous, and I disagree with nearly every domestic policy of Bush's. You love strawmen don't you.

Comparing some one who allegedly supports Bush to Jane Fonda shows a woeful lack of understanding about either person's position - they're practically complete opposites :confused:

What the hell is going on, man...I'm losing it...oooohhh...

What the hell is going on, man...I'm losing it...oooohhh...

I'm so fucking lost..."this is like that drug trip I saw in a movie while I was on that drug trip".- Fry

If you were paying attention to the thread, I wasn't comparing Bush to Jane Fonda.

Amm...'someone who allegedly supports Bush' refers to USMC. EDIT: Seen your edited post - still complete opposites really.

To the OP - I wonder if we're going to see a shift in America away from large-scale federal involvement and back to more state government pre-eminence. Since the Civil War, through the Great Depression and Civil Rights, the federal government has slowly encroached on every aspect of US life, thus giving the President the kind of power everyone seems to dislike.

Yet this wasn't what the original purpose of a 'united states' was and I think the US would be better off with more decentralization now that 'most' of the equality issues are, if not eradicated, are at least mostly resolved in law.

These growing secessionary movements may be indicative of a wider dissatisfaction with federal government because concentrating power into 100 senators, 9 judges and one president simply leads to greater potential for abuse of that power.

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/2294/newnewmapqc3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/2294/newnewmapqc3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Alaska will survive it's isolation via a series of underground tubes. No dump trucks though, all goods have to be electronically exchanged by way of racehorses evading poker chips.

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/2294/newnewmapqc3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Oh, the humanity!

Oh, the humanity!

Yeah, but you get NYC, Boston, Chicago, SF, LA, Seattle, and Honolulu, and all you have to give up are Calgary and Edmonton. :D

There's only about two thousand people in Vermont, predominantly upper class ski-lodge renters - they don't much associate with the rest of us anyway, so I can see how they'd want to make it official. :p

Hint: 1861-1865.

A bunch of stuff happened

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1860s

French Occupation of Mexico?
Italian Unification?
:p

The last depression was the Kind of Depressing in 2001, and then the OMEGA Depression of 2004.

Depressing for who? I remember cake and rejoicing. :p

Are you kidding? We need you. Red staters would starve to death without California.

The nation's breadbasket isn't California. We'd be short on nuts and red wine, maybe lettuce. :p Also, Wisconsin cheese > California cheese. :p

New Jersey ain't called the garden state because we bury mobsters in farms and then slowly feed it to their families.

Italian Cheese>Wisconsin cheese > California cheese. :p

You forgot to finish it. :D

You forgot to finish it. :D

I couldn't say from experience, but it sounds like something to try. :p

Italian Unification?

Realistically, 1871 with the end of the Franco-Prussian War, but, we'll, err...let you slide for now.

Realistically, 1871 with the end of the Franco-Prussian War, but, we'll, err...let you slide for now.

Hold Up... they're unified? :D

Awe, the last thing we need is more smelly Americans infecting our culture.
Isn't that what secession is? We don't like it, so we're leaving.

No sir. Secession would be "We don't like it, and we're taking this crap state with us!"

New Jersey ain't called the garden state because we bury mobsters in farms and then slowly feed it to their families.

Yes it is. Mobsters make for good fertilizer.

Hint: 1861-1865.

The War of Northern Agression for the educationally challenged here.

Yeah, but you get NYC, Boston, Chicago, SF, LA, Seattle, and Honolulu, and all you have to give up are Calgary and Edmonton. :D

NO!!!! I'D BE PART OF JESUSLAND!!!!!!!!capslocks is cruise control to cool

The War of Northern Agression for the educationally challenged here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Sumter

Under the cover of darkness on December 26, 1860, Anderson spiked the cannons at Fort Moultrie and removed his command to Fort Sumter. Confederate authorities considered this a breach of faith and demanded that the fort be evacuated. President James Buchanan was still in office, pending Lincoln's inauguration on March 4, 1861. He refused their demand and mounted a relief expedition in January 1861, but shore batteries fired on and repulsed the unarmed merchant ship, Star of the West.

By April 4, President Lincoln, discovering that supplies in the fort were shorter than he had previously known, and believing a relief expedition to be feasible, ordered merchant vessels escorted by the United States Navy to Charleston. On April 6, 1861, Lincoln notified South Carolina Governor Francis W. Pickens that "an attempt will be made to supply Fort Sumter with provisions only, and that if such attempt be not resisted, no effort to throw in men, arms, or ammunition will be made without further notice, [except] in case of an attack on the fort."

In response, the Confederate cabinet decided at a meeting in Montgomery to open fire on Fort Sumter in an attempt to force its surrender before the relief fleet arrived. Only Secretary of State Robert Toombs opposed this decision: he reportedly told Jefferson Davis the attack "will lose us every friend at the North. You will wantonly strike a hornet's nest.... Legions now quiet will swarm out and sting us to death. It is unnecessary. It puts us in the wrong. It is fatal."[1]

Funny...to be the aggressor, don't you have to be the one to shoot first?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Sumter





Funny...to be the aggressor, don't you have to be the one to shoot first?

I was being sarcastic, and anyway, as we all know, the north won and the winners always write the history books.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Sumter





Funny...to be the aggressor, don't you have to be the one to shoot first?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Incident

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/2294/newnewmapqc3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Um, no.

Um, no.

well, if you don't like it, you can just leave ;)



I'm just bitter that they didn't invite the rest of New England.

It's nice to plan ahead just in case Dear Leader decides to stay in office "For the duration of the emergency."

Be patient. Special Order 66 is getting confabulated with Special Agent 99.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Sumter

Funny...to be the aggressor, don't you have to be the one to shoot first?

Explains why most people using the term "War of Northern Aggression" use it in a mocking way. ;)

Explains why most people using the term "War of Northern Aggression" use it in a mocking way. ;)

*sigh*...you'd be surprised.

Vermont seceded from the UK, Vermont seceded from NY...
It's as if they have a secession fetish or something.

Vermont is made of maple syrup and win. And since maple syrup is itself made out of win Vermont is also made entirely out of win.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how things in this movement go in the next few years, depending on who gets elected in '08. I remember a couple of years ago only 6% or so of Vermonters wanted secession, so it does seem to be growing.

Hail the devolution of America, you were too big anyways.

A bunch of stuff happened

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1860s

French Occupation of Mexico?
Italian Unification?
:p

Dynamite! *Cackles and lights a fuse*

Yes it is. Mobsters make for good fertilizer.

Only the Italian boss ones, the rest actually have effective exercise activities.

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/2294/newnewmapqc3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Nah. We Dems get Montana, Nebraska, and New Mexico as well. Maryland could go either way, but we really deserve DC, so we'll take that too. And West Virginia, too. They aren't as nutso as their southern neighbors.

Let 'em go. It's not like anyone cares about Vermont.

Go Vermont!...and take New Hampshire with you, or something.

Think about it - all Vermont has to do is talk New Hampshire into seceding, too, and the next thing you know, a domino effect happens.

Let's take this to the fall of 2008. Bush's approval rating is now single digits, al-Sadr has a Khomeini-esque grip on all of Iraq and has started pushing Syria, Kuwait, and a bunch of other piddlyshit sheikdoms in the Middle East around. Iran got the bomb from Pakistan, and Iraq's about ready to get it from Iran. A bunch of Americans are being held hostage in Baghdad a la the hostage crisis of 1979-81. Several of Bush's aides have resigned in frustration under scandal. Cheney considered resigning but thought better of it.

Bush, meanwhile, couldn't be happier. His own little Special Order 66 is in place. John Edwards is the heavy favorite to win the Presidency, but Bush doesn't care - because under his orders, all ballots have erased the vote for the Presidency from the list of choices. By about 8 a.m. ET, the entire cation is up in arms. People on the West Coast who haven't even gotten out of bed are starting to ask WTF. Hell, even in Hawaii, some guy who had trouble sleeping and got up to watch a little CNN has all the islands in an uproar.

Bush has declared a "state of emergency" and strong-armed the Diebold people into taking the presidency off the ballot. People demand paper ballots, and in a shocker, the turnout for the election is the highest on record. Of the votes that are cast, John Edwards wins easily; however, in the Electoral College, George W. Bush wins the electoral vote without receiving but a small fraction of votes from neocon fanatics.

Naturally, the Supreme Court, even with all the neocon lug nuts on it, tosses out the results instantly and demands that they be recounted. The lone justice who votes for keeping the results is almost run out of Washington with pitchforks and torches.

However, despite the fact that no one really expects Bush to stay on past his term's expiration or even be in office at that point, Washington is in pandemonium. Bush is asked to resign countless times by the end of November; he continually refuses, insisting that he is the legitimate President until he says otherwise. An attempt is made on his life. It fails, but all it succeeds in doing is convincing Bush to declare a State of Emergency. No other government branch recognizes this emergency, and even the military announces that it no longer answers to Bush, choosing instead to answer to the majority leader of the Senate until Edwards takes office.

Here's where it goes to hell, though - even though Bush's approval rating is approaching negative numbers, with only a small sampling of die-hard Busheviks supporting him, the secessionists in various states are not pleased. Secession movements take up in Hawaii, California, Alaska, Vermont, and New Hampshire; the California secession is brought down, however, when Arnold Schwarzenegger announces that he will work with President Edwards. Alaska and Hawaii are the first to announce that they are seceding. Many in Alaska favor petitioning Canada for admission as a province; Hawaii declares itself independent and establishes Japan and the Philippines as its most favored nations.

Alaska and Hawaii can't do much to bring down the U.S. But Vermont and New Hampshire can. Two tiny New England states that represent about an hour's drive between Maine and Canada can do a lot to bring down the United States.

The secession movement in Vermont reaches 59 percent, and the people vote in an emergency ballot for secession. The legislature concurs, and Vermont becomes the Free Republic of Vermont. Inspired by the backbone of Vermont, the libertarian paradise of New Hampshire follows suit, and the Confederation of New England is born.

Maine borders on only New Hampshire and is effectively cut off from America. Seeing the national insanity in Washington as well as the stand that Vermont and New Hampshire took, Maine joins the Confederation, not to be confused with the Confederacy. Meanwhile, the push is made to recruit Connecticut and Rhode Island. Small, piddling states, sure, but someone gets a little nervous that Yale, Brown, and Dartmouth Universities could all be on foreign soil. Trapped between two giants of states, and needing a way to make Massachusetts feel as if it's in a bind, Connecticut and Rhode Island secede.

Massachusetts is surrounded by hostile territory, torn between its New England brethren and the nation it has belonged to for over 200 years. What Massachusetts does depends in large part on what the Bush faction does. If Bush backs down, which is likely if he has almost no military support and the Busheviks are merely upset and not form-a-militia-and-kill-liberals upset, then Massachusetts stays put, joins the effort to return the New England states to the Union, and normalcy sets in after about six months.

However, it's entirely possible that the Bushevik faction splinters the military, rallies an angry-as-hell faction of people to rise to arms, and barricades himself and his team in the White House. The first thing these people do is start rioting. Cities in the Deep South are ablaze, and even bigger cities farther north are starting to feel the effects. Baltimore erupts into riots. Even Philadelphia experiences a surge in violence. Massachusetts sees Boston as the next stop for the Busheviks and opts to join the resistance.

The biggest domino in the puzzle is New York, however. The center of the entire world's economy is in NYC. New York also votes similarly to New England and seems to stand in staunch opposition to Bush. All it takes is a solidarity gesture of secession and joining the Confederation, and all of a sudden, the United States is in deep shit. Sure, they could declare war, but are they really going to bomb the hell out of their main financial center? It would devastate the economy and make the American dollar damn near worthless.

That's a most-extreme-case scenario, I think. But if Bush has enough backers, it could divide the nation in two.

Go Vermont!...and take New Hampshire with you, or something.

Think about it - all Vermont has to do is talk New Hampshire into seceding, too, and the next thing you know, a domino effect happens.

Let's take this to the fall of 2008. Bush's approval rating is now single digits, al-Sadr has a Khomeini-esque grip on all of Iraq and has started pushing Syria, Kuwait, and a bunch of other piddlyshit sheikdoms in the Middle East around. Iran got the bomb from Pakistan, and Iraq's about ready to get it from Iran. A bunch of Americans are being held hostage in Baghdad a la the hostage crisis of 1979-81. Several of Bush's aides have resigned in frustration under scandal. Cheney considered resigning but thought better of it.

Bush, meanwhile, couldn't be happier. His own little Special Order 66 is in place. John Edwards is the heavy favorite to win the Presidency, but Bush doesn't care - because under his orders, all ballots have erased the vote for the Presidency from the list of choices. By about 8 a.m. ET, the entire cation is up in arms. People on the West Coast who haven't even gotten out of bed are starting to ask WTF. Hell, even in Hawaii, some guy who had trouble sleeping and got up to watch a little CNN has all the islands in an uproar.

Bush has declared a "state of emergency" and strong-armed the Diebold people into taking the presidency off the ballot. People demand paper ballots, and in a shocker, the turnout for the election is the highest on record. Of the votes that are cast, John Edwards wins easily; however, in the Electoral College, George W. Bush wins the electoral vote without receiving but a small fraction of votes from neocon fanatics.

Naturally, the Supreme Court, even with all the neocon lug nuts on it, tosses out the results instantly and demands that they be recounted. The lone justice who votes for keeping the results is almost run out of Washington with pitchforks and torches.

However, despite the fact that no one really expects Bush to stay on past his term's expiration or even be in office at that point, Washington is in pandemonium. Bush is asked to resign countless times by the end of November; he continually refuses, insisting that he is the legitimate President until he says otherwise. An attempt is made on his life. It fails, but all it succeeds in doing is convincing Bush to declare a State of Emergency. No other government branch recognizes this emergency, and even the military announces that it no longer answers to Bush, choosing instead to answer to the majority leader of the Senate until Edwards takes office.

Here's where it goes to hell, though - even though Bush's approval rating is approaching negative numbers, with only a small sampling of die-hard Busheviks supporting him, the secessionists in various states are not pleased. Secession movements take up in Hawaii, California, Alaska, Vermont, and New Hampshire; the California secession is brought down, however, when Arnold Schwarzenegger announces that he will work with President Edwards. Alaska and Hawaii are the first to announce that they are seceding. Many in Alaska favor petitioning Canada for admission as a province; Hawaii declares itself independent and establishes Japan and the Philippines as its most favored nations.

Alaska and Hawaii can't do much to bring down the U.S. But Vermont and New Hampshire can. Two tiny New England states that represent about an hour's drive between Maine and Canada can do a lot to bring down the United States.

The secession movement in Vermont reaches 59 percent, and the people vote in an emergency ballot for secession. The legislature concurs, and Vermont becomes the Free Republic of Vermont. Inspired by the backbone of Vermont, the libertarian paradise of New Hampshire follows suit, and the Confederation of New England is born.

Maine borders on only New Hampshire and is effectively cut off from America. Seeing the national insanity in Washington as well as the stand that Vermont and New Hampshire took, Maine joins the Confederation, not to be confused with the Confederacy. Meanwhile, the push is made to recruit Connecticut and Rhode Island. Small, piddling states, sure, but someone gets a little nervous that Yale, Brown, and Dartmouth Universities could all be on foreign soil. Trapped between two giants of states, and needing a way to make Massachusetts feel as if it's in a bind, Connecticut and Rhode Island secede.

Massachusetts is surrounded by hostile territory, torn between its New England brethren and the nation it has belonged to for over 200 years. What Massachusetts does depends in large part on what the Bush faction does. If Bush backs down, which is likely if he has almost no military support and the Busheviks are merely upset and not form-a-militia-and-kill-liberals upset, then Massachusetts stays put, joins the effort to return the New England states to the Union, and normalcy sets in after about six months.

However, it's entirely possible that the Bushevik faction splinters the military, rallies an angry-as-hell faction of people to rise to arms, and barricades himself and his team in the White House. The first thing these people do is start rioting. Cities in the Deep South are ablaze, and even bigger cities farther north are starting to feel the effects. Baltimore erupts into riots. Even Philadelphia experiences a surge in violence. Massachusetts sees Boston as the next stop for the Busheviks and opts to join the resistance.

The biggest domino in the puzzle is New York, however. The center of the entire world's economy is in NYC. New York also votes similarly to New England and seems to stand in staunch opposition to Bush. All it takes is a solidarity gesture of secession and joining the Confederation, and all of a sudden, the United States is in deep shit. Sure, they could declare war, but are they really going to bomb the hell out of their main financial center? It would devastate the economy and make the American dollar damn near worthless.

That's a most-extreme-case scenario, I think. But if Bush has enough backers, it could divide the nation in two.

Maine would petition to join Canada.

Go Vermont!...and take New Hampshire with you, or something.

Think about it - all Vermont has to do is talk New Hampshire into seceding, too, and the next thing you know, a domino effect happens.

Let's take this to the fall of 2008. Bush's approval rating is now single digits, al-Sadr has a Khomeini-esque grip on all of Iraq and has started pushing Syria, Kuwait, and a bunch of other piddlyshit sheikdoms in the Middle East around. Iran got the bomb from Pakistan, and Iraq's about ready to get it from Iran. A bunch of Americans are being held hostage in Baghdad a la the hostage crisis of 1979-81. Several of Bush's aides have resigned in frustration under scandal. Cheney considered resigning but thought better of it.

Bush, meanwhile, couldn't be happier. His own little Special Order 66 is in place. John Edwards is the heavy favorite to win the Presidency, but Bush doesn't care - because under his orders, all ballots have erased the vote for the Presidency from the list of choices. By about 8 a.m. ET, the entire cation is up in arms. People on the West Coast who haven't even gotten out of bed are starting to ask WTF. Hell, even in Hawaii, some guy who had trouble sleeping and got up to watch a little CNN has all the islands in an uproar.

Bush has declared a "state of emergency" and strong-armed the Diebold people into taking the presidency off the ballot. People demand paper ballots, and in a shocker, the turnout for the election is the highest on record. Of the votes that are cast, John Edwards wins easily; however, in the Electoral College, George W. Bush wins the electoral vote without receiving but a small fraction of votes from neocon fanatics.

Naturally, the Supreme Court, even with all the neocon lug nuts on it, tosses out the results instantly and demands that they be recounted. The lone justice who votes for keeping the results is almost run out of Washington with pitchforks and torches.

However, despite the fact that no one really expects Bush to stay on past his term's expiration or even be in office at that point, Washington is in pandemonium. Bush is asked to resign countless times by the end of November; he continually refuses, insisting that he is the legitimate President until he says otherwise. An attempt is made on his life. It fails, but all it succeeds in doing is convincing Bush to declare a State of Emergency. No other government branch recognizes this emergency, and even the military announces that it no longer answers to Bush, choosing instead to answer to the majority leader of the Senate until Edwards takes office.

Here's where it goes to hell, though - even though Bush's approval rating is approaching negative numbers, with only a small sampling of die-hard Busheviks supporting him, the secessionists in various states are not pleased. Secession movements take up in Hawaii, California, Alaska, Vermont, and New Hampshire; the California secession is brought down, however, when Arnold Schwarzenegger announces that he will work with President Edwards. Alaska and Hawaii are the first to announce that they are seceding. Many in Alaska favor petitioning Canada for admission as a province; Hawaii declares itself independent and establishes Japan and the Philippines as its most favored nations.

Alaska and Hawaii can't do much to bring down the U.S. But Vermont and New Hampshire can. Two tiny New England states that represent about an hour's drive between Maine and Canada can do a lot to bring down the United States.

The secession movement in Vermont reaches 59 percent, and the people vote in an emergency ballot for secession. The legislature concurs, and Vermont becomes the Free Republic of Vermont. Inspired by the backbone of Vermont, the libertarian paradise of New Hampshire follows suit, and the Confederation of New England is born.

Maine borders on only New Hampshire and is effectively cut off from America. Seeing the national insanity in Washington as well as the stand that Vermont and New Hampshire took, Maine joins the Confederation, not to be confused with the Confederacy. Meanwhile, the push is made to recruit Connecticut and Rhode Island. Small, piddling states, sure, but someone gets a little nervous that Yale, Brown, and Dartmouth Universities could all be on foreign soil. Trapped between two giants of states, and needing a way to make Massachusetts feel as if it's in a bind, Connecticut and Rhode Island secede.

Massachusetts is surrounded by hostile territory, torn between its New England brethren and the nation it has belonged to for over 200 years. What Massachusetts does depends in large part on what the Bush faction does. If Bush backs down, which is likely if he has almost no military support and the Busheviks are merely upset and not form-a-militia-and-kill-liberals upset, then Massachusetts stays put, joins the effort to return the New England states to the Union, and normalcy sets in after about six months.

However, it's entirely possible that the Bushevik faction splinters the military, rallies an angry-as-hell faction of people to rise to arms, and barricades himself and his team in the White House. The first thing these people do is start rioting. Cities in the Deep South are ablaze, and even bigger cities farther north are starting to feel the effects. Baltimore erupts into riots. Even Philadelphia experiences a surge in violence. Massachusetts sees Boston as the next stop for the Busheviks and opts to join the resistance.

The biggest domino in the puzzle is New York, however. The center of the entire world's economy is in NYC. New York also votes similarly to New England and seems to stand in staunch opposition to Bush. All it takes is a solidarity gesture of secession and joining the Confederation, and all of a sudden, the United States is in deep shit. Sure, they could declare war, but are they really going to bomb the hell out of their main financial center? It would devastate the economy and make the American dollar damn near worthless.

That's a most-extreme-case scenario, I think. But if Bush has enough backers, it could divide the nation in two.

Wow. That was an awesomely done scenario.

But it fails to mention Florida, which will split in half due to the number of Hispanics, etc. The southern part would become a Caribbean state (probably La Republica de la Florida), and the north would be... South Georgia?

Oh, and Utah would be renamed "The Land of The Second Coming". :p

Oh, the humanity!

http://homepage.mac.com/barthold.van.acker/realbasic/ohthehumanity.jpg


Go Vermont go! I'd love to see California split off too, they could run as a country unto themselves pretty damn easily.

http://homepage.mac.com/barthold.van.acker/realbasic/ohthehumanity.jpg


Go Vermont go! I'd love to see California split off too, they could run as a country unto themselves pretty damn easily.

Vermont got basically ignored in that last presidential elections. I think it'll be bette rif they could run themselves, though the USA probably wouldn't like that.

I think they wanna be some sorta Canada people.
Only if they changed their unrestricted gun laws. :)

Wow. That was an awesomely done scenario.

But it fails to mention Florida, which will split in half due to the number of Hispanics, etc. The southern part would become a Caribbean state (probably La Republica de la Florida), and the north would be... South Georgia?

Oh, and Utah would be renamed "The Land of The Second Coming". :p

I could see Florida splitting in half, sure...or maybe into thirds. It seems to me there are two very similar parts to Florida and a third that's more or less the Deep South. The northern part of it would be South Georgia, Super Gainesville, NASCARLAND, or something...basically everything from about Daytona north.

South of that is all the resort/Cuban/Disney stuff. That probably would remain one unified state. Frankly, I can almost imagine Florida, or that part of it, joining a confederation of Caribbean states, especially Spanish-speaking ones, whose chief industry is tourism. And fancy rich-people second homes.

I could break the country down into little bits if I wanted, sure, and frankly, any scenario I devise probably involves Utah seceding (call it Deseret, Jesusland, The Land of Too Many Wives, The Land of the Second Coming, or just plain Utah if you wanted to be boring.) Another odd possibility is that Nevada splits in two - the backwater part of the state joins Utah or something, and some nowhere town becomes the capital, while the whole Vegas/Reno/Carson City stretch joins up with California, which becomes way too damn powerful and probably has to be split into NorCal and SoCal and maybe a bunch of baby Cals. No word on if they would recongeal into some hideous beast a la AT&T...if so, they must change their state motto to a creepy uttering of the phrase "My name...is Leeeeeeeeeeeeeegion." Five metaphorical cookies for the reference.

Think about it - all Vermont has to do is talk New Hampshire into seceding, too, and the next thing you know, a domino effect happens.


Eh...NH may have a democrat or 2 as governors in the recent past, but it's FAR too conservative a state to secede. Bunch of Republicans there....Vermont would take MA before they got NH.

I could see Florida splitting in half, sure...or maybe into thirds. It seems to me there are two very similar parts to Florida and a third that's more or less the Deep South. The northern part of it would be South Georgia, Super Gainesville, NASCARLAND, or something...basically everything from about Daytona north.

South of that is all the resort/Cuban/Disney stuff. That probably would remain one unified state. Frankly, I can almost imagine Florida, or that part of it, joining a confederation of Caribbean states, especially Spanish-speaking ones, whose chief industry is tourism. And fancy rich-people second homes.

I could break the country down into little bits if I wanted, sure, and frankly, any scenario I devise probably involves Utah seceding (call it Deseret, Jesusland, The Land of Too Many Wives, The Land of the Second Coming, or just plain Utah if you wanted to be boring.) Another odd possibility is that Nevada splits in two - the backwater part of the state joins Utah or something, and some nowhere town becomes the capital, while the whole Vegas/Reno/Carson City stretch joins up with California, which becomes way too damn powerful and probably has to be split into NorCal and SoCal and maybe a bunch of baby Cals. No word on if they would recongeal into some hideous beast a la AT&T...if so, they must change their state motto to a creepy uttering of the phrase "My name...is Leeeeeeeeeeeeeegion." Five metaphorical cookies for the reference.

Agreed.

Here are what I'd think they'd be named...

North Florida- South Georgia
South Florida- Republica de La Florida/Republica del Sol/Republica de la Primavera/something Spanish that deals with either flowers, spring, the sun, or the beach
Nevada/California- Union of the West Coast (?)
Utah- God's Country

This country ... will never tolerate a dictator.

Umm...

You can't really say that until after the attempted coup, I'm afraid.

Eh...NH may have a democrat or 2 as governors in the recent past, but it's FAR too conservative a state to secede. Bunch of Republicans there....Vermont would take MA before they got NH.

MA would be a tough sell, simply because there would be more riding on it than other states. If VT secedes, NH is a possibility simply because they seem more libertarian than other states (low taxes, lack of seat belt laws, seemed pretty split during the last two elections.) NH is not a normal New England state, but to say it's conservative is a stretch. Libertarian? Perhaps.

And the same goes for VT on some level. Howard Dean is the face of VT, and he's a fiscal conservative. Neither VT nor NH are likely to stand for a fiscally irresponsible authoritarian president who is hell-bent on taking away people's rights.

Plus, they would have ME geographically cornered. It might join Canada, and if the secession movement fails, they might go to Canada for assistance. Hell, Canada might get two new provinces - Alaska and New England. AK might even merge with the Yukon territory or something creative; I don't know.

The secession movement would go one of three ways:

The New England states secede, NY doesn't, the states are forced to repariate.
The New England states secede, NY doesn't, the states join Canada.
The New England states secede, NY does, and the new nation has legitimacy. And all but two Ivy League colleges.

Agreed.

Here are what I'd think they'd be named...

North Florida- South Georgia
South Florida- Republica de La Florida/Republica del Sol/Republica de la Primavera/something Spanish that deals with either flowers, spring, the sun, or the beach
Nevada/California- Union of the West Coast (?)
Utah- God's Country

You left out Central Florida - Disneyworld

You left out Central Florida - Disneyworld

Destroyed in Florida's civil war.

Agreed.

Here are what I'd think they'd be named...

North Florida- South Georgia
South Florida- Republica de La Florida/Republica del Sol/Republica de la Primavera/something Spanish that deals with either flowers, spring, the sun, or the beach
Nevada/California- Union of the West Coast (?)
Utah- God's Country

If S. Florida does include Orlando, how about La República de Disney?

If S. Florida does include Orlando, how about La República de Disney?

Disney will be damaged and then shut down during and after the War.

MA would be a tough sell, simply because there would be more riding on it than other states. If VT secedes, NH is a possibility simply because they seem more libertarian than other states (low taxes, lack of seat belt laws, seemed pretty split during the last two elections.) NH is not a normal New England state, but to say it's conservative is a stretch. Libertarian? Perhaps.

And the same goes for VT on some level. Howard Dean is the face of VT, and he's a fiscal conservative. Neither VT nor NH are likely to stand for a fiscally irresponsible authoritarian president who is hell-bent on taking away people's rights.

Plus, they would have ME geographically cornered. It might join Canada, and if the secession movement fails, they might go to Canada for assistance. Hell, Canada might get two new provinces - Alaska and New England. AK might even merge with the Yukon territory or something creative; I don't know.

The secession movement would go one of three ways:

The New England states secede, NY doesn't, the states are forced to repariate.
The New England states secede, NY doesn't, the states join Canada.
The New England states secede, NY does, and the new nation has legitimacy. And all but two Ivy League colleges.

Being a Candian Province is a realistic possibilty for Maine. "Down East" is culturally similar to the Maritimes, and northern Maine (Arootook County -- "the County", it's referred to by Mainers) has a sizable Francophone population.

Disney will be damaged and then shut down during and after the War.

And Disney World would be moved. Presumably to...hmm, I'll pick Austin, TX. Or maybe the island of Hawai'i, which would be purchased by the Disney corporation with their insurance money.

And Disney World would be moved. Presumably to...hmm, I'll pick Austin, TX. Or maybe the island of Hawai'i, which would be purchased by the Disney corporation with their insurance money.

The ruins of Disney World will become either a fort or a memorial, depending on the relations between post-war Redneck and Caribbean Florida.

Umm...

You can't really say that until after the attempted coup, I'm afraid.


attempted coup?
not to hijack ,but was not that what jfk's assasination was..a coup for the militarists and multinationals.
just a thought is all.

The War of Northern Agression for the educationally challenged here.

Oh brother :rolleyes:

How can it be Northern Agression when it was the CONFEDERATES that STARTED IT???!!!!

As to Vermont...wanting to secede....I see that 87% still favor the Union so at least they are rational.

Vermont seceded from the UK, Vermont seceded from NY...
It's as if they have a secession fetish or something.

Umm do you have proof that they seceded from NY? All I see here was that for 14 years, it was called the Republic of Vermont and that was both during and after the Revolutionary War. Not to mention, New Hampshire had a claim as well and Ethan Allen backed them up.

So no. New York did not control Vermont and neither did New Hampshire.

Timeline:
Vermont secedes
US declares war on Vermont
US annexes Vermont as a territory
Vermont becomes new 50th state

An exercise in futility

True.

And neither did Mass but then their borders got fixed by George II.

So no. New York did not control Vermont and neither did New Hampshire.

True.

If Vermont succeds from the Union, that will be the greatest thing to happen to the US since Ronald Reagan. I mean think about it, Vermont has been nothing but trouble these past few years, and if they leave good ridance. Although the succesion probably wouldn't last long. Just look at the last few states that succeded, they didn't last very long, and that was half the country, this is just one state.

If Vermont succeds from the Union, that will be the greatest thing to happen to the US since Ronald Reagan. I mean think about it, Vermont has been nothing but trouble these past few years, and if they leave good ridance. Although the succesion probably wouldn't last long. Just look at the last few states that succeded, they didn't last very long, and that was half the country, this is just one state.

The word is SECESSION not SUCCESSION! :D

Go Vermont!...and take New Hampshire with you, or something.

Think about it - all Vermont has to do is talk New Hampshire into seceding, too, and the next thing you know, a domino effect happens.

Let's take this to the fall of 2008. Bush's approval rating is now single digits, al-Sadr has a Khomeini-esque grip on all of Iraq and has started pushing Syria, Kuwait, and a bunch of other piddlyshit sheikdoms in the Middle East around. Iran got the bomb from Pakistan, and Iraq's about ready to get it from Iran. A bunch of Americans are being held hostage in Baghdad a la the hostage crisis of 1979-81. Several of Bush's aides have resigned in frustration under scandal. Cheney considered resigning but thought better of it.

Bush, meanwhile, couldn't be happier. His own little Special Order 66 is in place. John Edwards is the heavy favorite to win the Presidency, but Bush doesn't care - because under his orders, all ballots have erased the vote for the Presidency from the list of choices. By about 8 a.m. ET, the entire cation is up in arms. People on the West Coast who haven't even gotten out of bed are starting to ask WTF. Hell, even in Hawaii, some guy who had trouble sleeping and got up to watch a little CNN has all the islands in an uproar.

Bush has declared a "state of emergency" and strong-armed the Diebold people into taking the presidency off the ballot. People demand paper ballots, and in a shocker, the turnout for the election is the highest on record. Of the votes that are cast, John Edwards wins easily; however, in the Electoral College, George W. Bush wins the electoral vote without receiving but a small fraction of votes from neocon fanatics.

Naturally, the Supreme Court, even with all the neocon lug nuts on it, tosses out the results instantly and demands that they be recounted. The lone justice who votes for keeping the results is almost run out of Washington with pitchforks and torches.

However, despite the fact that no one really expects Bush to stay on past his term's expiration or even be in office at that point, Washington is in pandemonium. Bush is asked to resign countless times by the end of November; he continually refuses, insisting that he is the legitimate President until he says otherwise. An attempt is made on his life. It fails, but all it succeeds in doing is convincing Bush to declare a State of Emergency. No other government branch recognizes this emergency, and even the military announces that it no longer answers to Bush, choosing instead to answer to the majority leader of the Senate until Edwards takes office.

Here's where it goes to hell, though - even though Bush's approval rating is approaching negative numbers, with only a small sampling of die-hard Busheviks supporting him, the secessionists in various states are not pleased. Secession movements take up in Hawaii, California, Alaska, Vermont, and New Hampshire; the California secession is brought down, however, when Arnold Schwarzenegger announces that he will work with President Edwards. Alaska and Hawaii are the first to announce that they are seceding. Many in Alaska favor petitioning Canada for admission as a province; Hawaii declares itself independent and establishes Japan and the Philippines as its most favored nations.

Alaska and Hawaii can't do much to bring down the U.S. But Vermont and New Hampshire can. Two tiny New England states that represent about an hour's drive between Maine and Canada can do a lot to bring down the United States.

The secession movement in Vermont reaches 59 percent, and the people vote in an emergency ballot for secession. The legislature concurs, and Vermont becomes the Free Republic of Vermont. Inspired by the backbone of Vermont, the libertarian paradise of New Hampshire follows suit, and the Confederation of New England is born.

Maine borders on only New Hampshire and is effectively cut off from America. Seeing the national insanity in Washington as well as the stand that Vermont and New Hampshire took, Maine joins the Confederation, not to be confused with the Confederacy. Meanwhile, the push is made to recruit Connecticut and Rhode Island. Small, piddling states, sure, but someone gets a little nervous that Yale, Brown, and Dartmouth Universities could all be on foreign soil. Trapped between two giants of states, and needing a way to make Massachusetts feel as if it's in a bind, Connecticut and Rhode Island secede.

Massachusetts is surrounded by hostile territory, torn between its New England brethren and the nation it has belonged to for over 200 years. What Massachusetts does depends in large part on what the Bush faction does. If Bush backs down, which is likely if he has almost no military support and the Busheviks are merely upset and not form-a-militia-and-kill-liberals upset, then Massachusetts stays put, joins the effort to return the New England states to the Union, and normalcy sets in after about six months.

However, it's entirely possible that the Bushevik faction splinters the military, rallies an angry-as-hell faction of people to rise to arms, and barricades himself and his team in the White House. The first thing these people do is start rioting. Cities in the Deep South are ablaze, and even bigger cities farther north are starting to feel the effects. Baltimore erupts into riots. Even Philadelphia experiences a surge in violence. Massachusetts sees Boston as the next stop for the Busheviks and opts to join the resistance.

The biggest domino in the puzzle is New York, however. The center of the entire world's economy is in NYC. New York also votes similarly to New England and seems to stand in staunch opposition to Bush. All it takes is a solidarity gesture of secession and joining the Confederation, and all of a sudden, the United States is in deep shit. Sure, they could declare war, but are they really going to bomb the hell out of their main financial center? It would devastate the economy and make the American dollar damn near worthless.

That's a most-extreme-case scenario, I think. But if Bush has enough backers, it could divide the nation in two.

I doubt New York would secede but if it did they wouldn't join New England because New York is not a New England state.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2007/6/4/85631.shtml?s=ic

Wha...?Why wouldn't they support secession?

Not to mention all the civilians exercising their Second Amendment rights on the wannabe dictator. This country might make some bad decisions, and we've done plenty of wrong things in our time, but we will never tolerate a dictator.Well, at least not an obvious dictator.

I doubt New York would secede but if it did they wouldn't join New England because New York is not a New England state.

I don't think that regional identity would matter as much as forging a political alliance.

MA would be a tough sell, simply because there would be more riding on it than other states. If VT secedes, NH is a possibility simply because they seem more libertarian than other states (low taxes, lack of seat belt laws, seemed pretty split during the last two elections.) NH is not a normal New England state, but to say it's conservative is a stretch. Libertarian? Perhaps.

And the same goes for VT on some level. Howard Dean is the face of VT, and he's a fiscal conservative. Neither VT nor NH are likely to stand for a fiscally irresponsible authoritarian president who is hell-bent on taking away people's rights.

Plus, they would have ME geographically cornered. It might join Canada, and if the secession movement fails, they might go to Canada for assistance. Hell, Canada might get two new provinces - Alaska and New England. AK might even merge with the Yukon territory or something creative; I don't know.

The secession movement would go one of three ways:

The New England states secede, NY doesn't, the states are forced to repariate.
The New England states secede, NY doesn't, the states join Canada.
The New England states secede, NY does, and the new nation has legitimacy. And all but two Ivy League colleges.

I don't know. I lived there for 24 years. It's pretty conservative. Laissez-Faire attitude and all that. It gets pretty split because of the colleges. St. A's isn't called the "Little Red Schoolhouse on the Hill" for nothing. It's a left leaning college, and the locals like to says it's the "commie" school. Oh, and NH doesn't have low taxes...they just have taxes in other places. Just ask any property owner, who's property taxes are so astronomical it's hard to pay them. You have alot of people saying give me a sales tax and an income tax, just to lower the property tax.

The reason I say MA would be more apt to go, is because though we've had a few Republican governors, we are a much more left leaning state.

I will admit, I know less of NH politics since I've left. I moved "south of the border" into "Taxachusetts" Funny, our property taxes aren't that bad. Sure, I pay sales tax and income tax, but, the sales tax is more spread out over time...and you don't even see the money from your check for the income tax...I'm not writing out a check to pay property tax. I'm much more knowledgeable about MA politics, and even then...not as much as I SHOULD be.

Anyway, VT does this every other year or so, and they never secede...I doubt they would, even if everyone in the state voted for it.

Hey...they can't leave the Union...they have all the Maple Syrup...:(

Hey...they can't leave the Union...they have all the Maple Syrup...:(

And we have all the blueberries, and YOU CAN'T HAVE THEM! :D

Why wouldn't they support secession?

Well for starters, they get more federal funding than they pay in taxes.

And we have all the blueberries, and YOU CAN'T HAVE THEM! :D

Well, Florida has all the oranges...

Well, we have all the oranges...

Which "we"?

Which "we"?

...Cuba

...Cuba

Cuba has oranges?

Sorry... US trade embargo... I wouldn't know if they really did.

Well, Florida has all the oranges...

Oh... FLORIDA.

Yeah, lots of oranges. Specially in the center part...

Cuba has oranges?

Sorry... US trade embargo... I wouldn't know if they really did.

Castro says hi, and is in full support of Vermont's heroic struggle against the American Imperialist Dogs...

Viva la Vermont!

Castro says hi, and is in full support of Vermont's heroic struggle against the American Imperialist Dogs...

Viva la Vermont!

Is that anything like Viva Las Vegas?

Castro says hi, and is in full support of Vermont's heroic struggle against the American Imperialist Dogs...

Viva la Vermont!

Tell Castro that the Guvernator wants some Cubans. :D :p

well, if you don't like it, you can just leave ;)



I'm just bitter that they didn't invite the rest of New England.

Actually, if you don't like it, YOU can leave (the land stays with us, though). :p

I felt this thread was the right place to put this little tidbit of info
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55825

Now if im understanding correctly this basically means that at anytime the USA could go full on dictatorship, or try at least and i was wondering if this is something you all heard about or not as iv seen veary little info beyond that site with info regarding it.

NSPD 51 if you google that you should get some site releting to it but it looks like no major media orginization has picked it up yet. (however im fairly out of the loop on these things so i could be wrong)

That looks frightening, but I'll admit that I didn't read it in depth. I would need a hard copy to really examine it.

If I'm understanding it correctly, Bush could decide that Iraq is a "Catastrophic Emergency" and the elections wouldn't happen in '08?

I would love if someone could look at that, and explain. (reading on my computer screen is just too hard for me if it's too long.)

That looks frightening, but I'll admit that I didn't read it in depth. I would need a hard copy to really examine it.

If I'm understanding it correctly, Bush could decide that Iraq is a "Catastrophic Emergency" and the elections wouldn't happen in '08?

I would love if someone could look at that, and explain. (reading on my computer screen is just too hard for me if it's too long.)

I see people do not understand these things. National Emergency means affecting the Country from the executive branch on down. Iraq does not fall into that category. Nuclear War or a cataclismic earthquake or Yellowstone erupting, does.

That is what the directive is talking about.

I see people do not understand these things. National Emergency means affecting the Country from the executive branch on down. Iraq does not fall into that category. Nuclear War or a cataclysmic earthquake or Yellowstone erupting, does.

That is what the directive is talking about.

(b) "Catastrophic Emergency" means any incident, regardless of location, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the U.S. population, infrastructure, environment, economy, or government functions;

that seems pretty broad, and just about anything could fall under that....pretty broad is what concerns me. Iraq could fall under that definition, should someone want to spin it like that...kind of the "don't want to change horses midstream" mentality.

that seems pretty broad, and just about anything could fall under that....pretty broad is what concerns me. Iraq could fall under that definition, should someone want to spin it like that...kind of the "don't want to change horses midstream" mentality.

Here's a problem, Clinton also had a policy but we do not know what it is because it has remained classified. The fact that this was released says alot about what it is going to be used for.

This will not be used unless something catastrophic hits the United States that causes what you quoted. Besides, this is old news, has been debated on NS and has nothing to do with this thread.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2007/6/4/85631.shtml?s=ic



Wha...?

It won't happen again. When Lincoln suspended the Constitution to subjugate the South, he sealed the door on any secession in the future.

Let's not forget as well that we are dealing with about ten percent of the population of a relatively small state. Something to keep informed on...but not concerned about.

Well for starters, they get more federal funding than they pay in taxes.Yes, but where does the funding go to?

That looks frightening, but I'll admit that I didn't read it in depth. I would need a hard copy to really examine it.

If I'm understanding it correctly, Bush could decide that Iraq is a "Catastrophic Emergency" and the elections wouldn't happen in '08?

I would love if someone could look at that, and explain. (reading on my computer screen is just too hard for me if it's too long.)

this part addresses that (from the Definitions (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html)):

(e) "Enduring Constitutional Government," or "ECG," means a cooperative effort among the executive, legislative, and judicial branches of the Federal Government, coordinated by the President, as a matter of comity with respect to the legislative and judicial branches and with proper respect for the constitutional separation of powers among the branches, to preserve the constitutional framework under which the Nation is governed and the capability of all three branches of government to execute constitutional responsibilities and provide for orderly succession, appropriate transition of leadership, and interoperability and support of the National Essential Functions during a catastrophic emergency;

This law apparently replaces an existing Presidential Directive that apparently did the same thng: ensure that the government continues to function when the shit hits the proverbial fan.

It seems to place this responsibility on the President's shoulders. I assume that an ambitious POTUS could use this to expand his (or her) control, but since the spirit of this directive is to preserve the separation of powers and support the rule of law, I would assume that it would be impossible to use this directive to suspend those very things.

As for the secession issue, I hope that Vermont and other States do secede. Decentralisation is where it's at.

this part addresses that (from the Definitions (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html)):



This law apparently replaces an existing Presidential Directive that apparently did the same thng: ensure that the government continues to function when the shit hits the proverbial fan.

It seems to place this responsibility on the President's shoulders. I assume that an ambitious POTUS could use this to expand his (or her) control, but since the spirit of this directive is to preserve the separation of powers and support the rule of law, I would assume that it would be impossible to use this directive to suspend those very things.

As for the secession issue, I hope that Vermont and other States do secede. Decentralisation is where it's at.

thank you for the explanation. I suffer from migraines, and oftentimes, reading long articles like that is difficult. Normally, I would print it out and sit and read it, but my printer died. I do appreciate you taking the time to post a readable explanation.

New York, New Jersey,Pennsylvania, possibly Ohio and Deleware... The Northeastern states of American but that might exclude Ohio mabey Deleware. Oh well too bad. But if NY seceded NJ would immediately follow as much of thier economy is based on NY. PA would probably come too.

To the OP - I wonder if we're going to see a shift in America away from large-scale federal involvement and back to more state government pre-eminence. Since the Civil War, through the Great Depression and Civil Rights, the federal government has slowly encroached on every aspect of US life, thus giving the President the kind of power everyone seems to dislike.


Increasing Federal powers was one reason we got out of the Great depression and one of the reasons the civil rights movement succeeded. Would Alabama have voted against segregation?

I was being sarcastic, and anyway, as we all know, the north won and the winners always write the history books.

Speaking of which, how do they teach the Civil War in the south?

Speaking of which, how do they teach the Civil War in the south?

Very benignly. There aren't many text books published in Atlanta, plus, there are those nasty NCLB mandated tests that students must pass.

Almost no one refers to it as the War Between the States, let alone The War of Northern Agression.

Actually, with the ridiculous amount of duplication, waste and downright incompetence that appears in a federation regarding revenue dispersal, you really only have two options, unitary centralism or local devolution.

Actually, with the ridiculous amount of duplication, waste and downright incompetence that appears in a federation regarding revenue dispersal, you really only have two options, unitary centralism or local devolution.

Having both federal and statoid systems allows the mistakes that would occur in in a unitary system not to affect all parts of that State whilst also allowing greater co-operativity and harmonisation than you would get from a more devolved version.

The Federal government being equal partners with the statoid subunits would be optimal in my opinion.

What really would be a test for a federated system would be when other planets get colonised. A further level would probably have to be added as a solar system government.

I am fully behind any such efforts on their part.

It won't happen again. When Lincoln suspended the Constitution to subjugate the South, he sealed the door on any secession in the future.

Let's not forget as well that we are dealing with about ten percent of the population of a relatively small state. Something to keep informed on...but not concerned about.

Again, there's that silly notion that violence solves legal issues.

Having both federal and statoid systems allows the mistakes that would occur in in a unitary system not to affect all parts of that State whilst also allowing greater co-operativity and harmonisation than you would get from a more devolved version.

The Federal government being equal partners with the statoid subunits would be optimal in my opinion.

What really would be a test for a federated system would be when other planets get colonised. A further level would probably have to be added as a solar system government.

I have to disagree, the Federal system is basically a left over from colonial times when technology did not permit a unitary system to function in any meaningful way, this is true in the US and Australia. For the most part, disagreements and disputes between state and federal governments delay and stop welfare provisions and other policy, political disputes for the most part can stop policies coming to the people. I am not so sure about this in the US, but it is notorious in Australia, it's made worst by the party rivalry, where Labor states wont accept anything from the Liberal federal government, we call it 'The Blame Game', people really hate it over here.

Actually, I'd say that the Federal system in the US has a lot more to do with the emotional attachments that the original inhabitants had to their individual states than to anything as reasoned as that. All in all, I'd say that the origins and operations of the Federal systems in the US and Australia aren't really comparable.

So 0.05% of the people in Vermont show up at a succession convention 2 years ago, and a slightly more recent, and obviously biased/skewed, poll has a higher percentage and there's nine pages of responses
I'm impressed...

there's nine pages of responses

This is NSG. You'd get 9 pages of responses about anything, even a blank OP.

So 0.05% of the people in Vermont show up at a succession convention 2 years ago, and a slightly more recent, and obviously biased/skewed, poll has a higher percentage and there's nine pages of responses
I'm impressed...

Secession.

Succession would usually mean royalty was involved.

So 0.05% of the people in Vermont show up at a succession convention 2 years ago, and a slightly more recent, and obviously biased/skewed, poll has a higher percentage and there's nine pages of responses
I'm impressed...

LOL! And it is SECESSION!! I wish people will learn to spell the word correctly.

LOL! And it is SECESSION!! I wish people will learn to spell the word correctly.

If it really were a succession do you think I should try to be their king?

Not to mention all the civilians exercising their Second Amendment rights on the wannabe dictator. This country might make some bad decisions, and we've done plenty of wrong things in our time, but we will never tolerate a dictator.
*coughcoughyeahrightcough*

*coughcoughyeahrightcough*

Vetalia is indeed right. We would not tolerate one.

Vetalia is indeed right. We would not tolerate one.

Some would some wouldn't. USMC has set his lot with King George.

Some would some wouldn't. USMC has set his lot with King George.

From what I have seen of him, I disagree.

Vetalia is indeed right. We would not tolerate one.
I still have my doubts. Probably my intuition or something.

Actually, I'd say that the Federal system in the US has a lot more to do with the emotional attachments that the original inhabitants had to their individual states than to anything as reasoned as that. All in all, I'd say that the origins and operations of the Federal systems in the US and Australia aren't really comparable.

How attached are people to their states today? And for that matter, those who are said to be attached to their states today...are they really more attached to their cities?

Would I be accurate in saying this - those from the South are attached to their states. Those in large Northern and coastal cities are more attached to their cities. Those in the Midwest outgrow attachment to their states pretty quickly.

How attached are people to their states today? And for that matter, those who are said to be attached to their states today...are they really more attached to their cities?

Would I be accurate in saying this - those from the South are attached to their states. Those in large Northern and coastal cities are more attached to their cities. Those in the Midwest outgrow attachment to their states pretty quickly.

That's a very good question, and one that is rather hard to answer. My contact with people from other states is largely limited to the Army and international students here in France.

As for those in the South being attached to their states, I'd say that's a pretty accurate statement, although I can't really qualify that.

As for the large Northern and coastal cities, that depends on one's definition of Northern. If you mean the Northeast (New England, New York, Maryland, and Pennsylvania) you're probably right in regards to the big cities. However, my experiences with people from the rural parts of those areas, those people are quite attached to their states.

The Great Lakes states (Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan) are sometimes put into Northern, sometimes Midwestern (a mistake, I think) so I'll deal with them differently. I'd say there's a great deal of state pride in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio (especially during college football season) and Michigan. Less so in Indiana and Illinois.

Michigan is a bit different from the other Great Lakes states in that it has a large city, but one that has been in a serious tailspin for several decades. This article shows that there is indeed a great deal of state pride (90% of Michiganders say they "love Michigan").

http://www.redorbit.com/news/technology/575134/a_huge_slice_of_michigan_agrees_i__mi/index.html

Having met a number of people from the Midwest (excluding the Great Lakes) I'd agree that attachment to their states isn't all that important, although I can't back that up either.

As for the west, I don't really know. I lived in Colorado for a year, and I'd say they're definitely more attached to their cities, but I did see Colorado flags being flown at a great deal of private buildings, which would suggest to me a certain level of attachment to their states, although Americans in general are raging vellexophiles.

Anyway, take my anecdotal evidence for what it is, but I do assure you that attachment to one's state certainly isn't dead in the US.

LOL! And it is SECESSION!! I wish people will learn to spell the word correctly.
You want people to spell correctly and yet you cannot even use a gramatically correct sentence to voice your concern!! :eek:

That is a Corny kinda mistake to make?

Vermont gets more money from the federal government than it pays in taxes, so if they go we save a billion dollars that can be given back to California or Washington.

California has the 8th largest economy in the world, we can manage nicely without the rest of you blokes, thanks.

Vermont has the right idea, and while secession will never succeed, with the right numbers supporting it, it will make the Feds uncomfortable.

You want people to spell correctly and yet you cannot even use a gramatically correct sentence to voice your concern!! :eek:

That is a Corny kinda mistake to make?

:rolleyes: Spelling in this case is essential to the debate for changing a letter can throw an entire post off. Gramer though is another story. One does not need perfect grammer to get a point across.

And I wish you stop comparing me to someone I am not. I am going to ask politely that you stop.

Very benignly. There aren't many text books published in Atlanta, plus, there are those nasty NCLB mandated tests that students must pass.

Almost no one refers to it as the War Between the States, let alone The War of Northern Agression.

Oh. Kewl.

Some would some wouldn't. USMC has set his lot with King George.

I don't mean to sound hostile or anything, but you are a fucking idiot.

No, if you're trying to secede from the country, that illustrates how you grossly under-appreciate the US. Such ingrates could leave for all I care; in fact, I even encourage them to do so.

She doesn't grossly underappreciate the United States, she simply detests nitwits like you.

We are descended from ingrates if you actually BOTHER to read history. Nope, wait a minute...reading history and understanding it is forbidden in your world.

The people of this nation have the right to disagree with the people we elect. It is not treason to call the current President an arrogant shithead, it is not treasonous to disagree with the President's policies, and it is decidedly not treasonous to express that opinion wherever the President might go. Despite the attempts of Presidents to seperate themselves from being questioned in front of the cameras by disgruntled Americans, we still have the right to gather peacefully and demand a redress of our grievances, if we are not satisfied, we have the right, NO the duty, to throw those people out on their arrogant arses. Vermont or any other state may express that displeasure by entertaining the idea of secession.

You sir are a follower. Someone who is not inclined to question authority or injustice, I am sure you are content with this. I'm not. I question our leadership intensely. I hold them to their oaths and if the don't like it, THEY can resign, retire or get run out office on a rail. Their choice.

She doesn't grossly underappreciate the United States, she simply detests nitwits like you.

We are descended from ingrates if you actually BOTHER to read history. Nope, wait a minute...reading history and understanding it is forbidden in your world.

The people of this nation have the right to disagree with the people we elect. It is not treason to call the current President an arrogant shithead, it is not treasonous to disagree with the President's policies, and it is decidedly not treasonous to express that opinion wherever the President might go. Despite the attempts of Presidents to seperate themselves from being questioned in front of the cameras by disgruntled Americans, we still have the right to gather peacefully and demand a redress of our grievances, if we are not satisfied, we have the right, NO the duty, to throw those people out on their arrogant arses. Vermont or any other state may express that displeasure by entertaining the idea of secession.

You sir are a follower. Someone who is not inclined to question authority or injustice, I am sure you are content with this. I'm not. I question our leadership intensely. I hold them to their oaths and if the don't like it, THEY can resign, retire or get run out office on a rail. Their choice.

Quoted for eloquently stated truth.

Not to mention all the civilians exercising their Second Amendment rights on the wannabe dictator. This country might make some bad decisions, and we've done plenty of wrong things in our time, but we will never tolerate a dictator.

The people will tolerate whatever the media scares them into tolerating. This president openley violated the constitution and the average American couldn't give two shits. Some of them even supported the violation. Those are the ones with the guns.
No. The reason he or any other president wouldn't attempt to create a dictatorship has much more to do with the power of the other branches of government than any expected outrage from the people.

If only Vermont did secede, and every other state followed their example.