NationStates Jolt Archive

We did quite a bit of shopping yesterday and both wore our shirts. First, we went to the Middle East food market to get some olives, olive oil and spices but the first comment of “I like your shirts,” came while we were shopping at Aldis. We then went to the carpet and tile store to borrow some tiles to see how they looked on the entryway floor. When we returned about 30 minutes later a lady outside said, “I like your shirts. Where did you get them?"

After taking the tiles we bought home, we went to the farm and ranch store to get some overalls for my father-in-law and a pair of jeans for me. As we were checking out the clerk asked us if we were Republicans. We replied, “No, Independents.” We needed some wine and bourbon so it was on to the liquor store. I’ve worn my shirt in there before and received positive comments, but this was the first time my wife wore hers and they gave her a very appreciative smile. From there, it was on to the grocery store where one checkout clerk said, “I like your shirts,” and the other asked, “Are you Republicans?”

It’s a great shirt and every time I wear it, I get positive comments especially form young people.

Would you wear one? Oh, here is what the shirt looks like
http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/shirtsquare-redefeat.jpg

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

No, no I wouldn't, for the simple reason that Hilary Clinton is no more a Communist than Ronald Reagan was. :p

Dear christ alive, do you really believe that she is!?

This shirt would seem more apropriate for you.

http://www.cafepress.com/buy/Troll/-/pv_design_details/pg_1/id_1456656/opt_/fpt_/c_360/

I think this is the right shirt for you;

http://www.cafepress.com/buy/Troll/-/pv_design_details/pg_1/id_1456656/opt_/fpt_/c_360/

Clinton is a communist? :confused:

...erm so you brought a shirt from the knee jerk fascist T-shirt store

I also despise black clothing for lack of funky

Sure, to troll IRL.

I won't agree Hillary is a communist, but I will agree that she has already had her terms of office while her husband was using the oval office to score pooty points.

I won't agree Hillary is a communist, but I will agree that she has already had her terms of office while her husband was using the oval office to score pooty points.

She did get more accomplished than Bill, I'll give you that.

I would rather wear any of Red Molotov's T-Shirts, but particularly this one (http://www.redmolotov.com/catalogue/design.php?design_code=zapatistasign&category_code=political) or this one (http://www.redmolotov.com/catalogue/design.php?design_code=bushwarcriminal&category_code=political).

She did get more accomplished than Bill, I'll give you that.

It is my firmly held opinion that we already had a female president in Hillary Clinton, she was in office for two terms and serving two more would be a violation of the Constitution.

Besides, I like Borak (Spelling...) Obama more.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

The model is cute (http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/model-rdf-4.jpg)

If you think Billiary has anything resembling communist policies you really need to look up what Communism is. You're insulting Stalin.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

No, no I wouldn't, for the simple reason that Hilary Clinton is no more a Communist than Ronald Reagan was. :p

Dear christ alive, do you really believe that she is!?

No, she is not a communist, however she is a socialist. I think the shirt sends the message that we do not like her politics.

Idiot. Stupid people shouldn't be allowed to pick out their own clothes from designs made by other morons.
Where is the "You people don't even know what the fuck you are talking about" option in the poll

If I wanted to wear clothes that made me look like an idiot, I would do it on purpose are far more intelligently.

no, i'd laugh at anyone who did.

If you think Billiary has anything resembling communist policies you really need to look up what Communism is. You're insulting Stalin.

ARRRRRGH

Stalin was a totalitarian psychopath who used the fig-leaf of Marx's (in)famous quote about the 'dictatorship of the proletariat' in the same manner as Lenin. He and his cronies executed a typically Russian dictatorship which bore very little to do with Communism's ultimate aim.

That said, it was symptomatic of what happens when you attempt to reach the ideal society via the path laid down by the Marxist-Leninists. It doesn't work, and you end up with a crap totalitarian authoritarian regime more interested in kicking the shit out of its subjects to stay in power rather than devolving power to the soviets and the people.

The last real Communists in Russia died at Kronstadt, or were exiled.

no, i'd laugh at anyone who did.

you laughin at me boy? :D

No, she is not a communist, however she is a socialist. I think the shirt sends the message that we do not like her politics.
She's not even a socialist. Certainly not by European standards, anyway.

And if you want to wear a shirt to send a message that you don't like her politics, make an original one yourself. I'll respect your opinion more if it wasn't thought up by someone else.

you laughin at me boy? :D

Yes

She's not even a socialist. Certainly not by European standards, anyway.

And if you want to wear a shirt to send a message that you don't like her politics, make an original one yourself. I'll respect your opinion more if it wasn't thought up by someone else.

1. Neither she nor I are in Europe. :eek:
2. The shirt expresses my opinion of here, I can afford it, and that's what capitalism is all about. :rolleyes:

Yes

Here have some cookies. :fluffle:

No, she is not a communist, however she is a socialist. I think the shirt sends the message that we do not like her politics.

HAHAHA!

She's not a socialist at all either! :p America has a long and proud tradition of Left-radicalism (at least until it got crushed by the army and the Pinkertons among others in the 1920s and 30s); Hilary Clinton is NOT its current standard bearer.

Hilary Clinton and the Democrats are one side of the right-wing capitalist profiteering god-fearing lunacy coin that gets flipped every four years in the USA. There's very little actual substantive difference between the two, to the extent that in some states voting Republican is a vote for the 'left', as far as I can make out.

If you want a T-Shirt that says you don't like her, for gods' sake get a Republican Party Approved one, man, you're letting the US 'democracy' machine down. :p

I wouldn't wear one of those shirts period. Just buying one would put money into pockets I don't like and it's totally fucking inaccurate. I mean, the woman isn't even a socialist, let alone a communist. Wtf has the red scare crap done to america's understanding of communism and socialism?

1. Neither she nor I are in Europe. :eek:
2. The shirt expresses my opinion of here, I can afford it, and that's what capitalism is all about. :rolleyes:
1. The point is she could only be considered a socialist in a country as right-wing as America. She's not a socialist. It doesn't matter where she is, she's still not a socialist.

2. The shirt does not express your opinion of her. The shirt says "Re-defeat Communism". You said:

No, she is not a communist

You can't have it both ways.

Hilary Clinton isn't a socialist. What Americans think, what Europeans think doesn't make a difference. It's that she doesn't fit any of the criteria for being a socialist.

I have better reasons not to vote for Hillary Clinton. LIke the fact that I don't trust her one bit. She has no integrity whatsoever. Not one Iota. I'd vote for someone who doesn't quite match my political opinions(though that person has to be reasonably close) if that person has the integrity to put their job ahead of their agenda. I have every reason to believe Hillary can't be trusted to do that. And she's not a very close match to boot.

But even if she was, I still wouldn't fuck her. :D

I mean, the woman isn't even a socialist, let alone a communist. Wtf has the red scare crap done to america's understanding of communism and socialism?

I will disagree with you about her being a socialist, but that's beside the point. The shirt is propaganda, and isn't propaganda about stretching the truth? In fact, just about all campaign materials are propaganda.

1. The point is she could only be considered a socialist in a country as right-wing as America. She's not a socialist. It doesn't matter where she is, she's still not a socialist.

2. The shirt does not express your opinion of her. The shirt says "Re-defeat Communism". You said:

You can't have it both ways.

1. Hillary care = socialized medicine = socialist philosophy = socialism.

2. Sure I can. The propaganda expresses my opinion of her and her politics. NO HILLARY IN 2008.

you laughin at me boy? :D

more of a smirk actually.

The sad thing is Hillary is pandering to the extreme left of the party because they make up the majority of the membership that attends the Convention. It's sad that "average joe" with centrist ideals is left behind by both parties. I quit voting via party a long time ago and now I focus on each person, what they have done, and more importantly what I perceive them doing if elected.

Now for the shirt, hell wear it. I think statement T-shirts are a conversation piece people use as an ice breaker and have an appropriate place in society.


-Hawdawg

more of a smirk actually.

Cookies for you also. :fluffle:

1. Hillary care = socialized medicine = socialist philosophy = socialism.

BWAHAHAHAA

No, that's social democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy). And a very weak form of it at that. Unless, of course, you think that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a socialist republic?

This is socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism).

While one grew out of the other, social democracy is a weaker, more capitalist, form, pioneered by Western Europe after 1945. I suppose compared to the US of A it looks like Bolshevism, but I assure you it's not.

I will disagree with you about her being a socialist, but that's beside the point. The shirt is propaganda, and isn't propaganda about stretching the truth? In fact, just about all campaign materials are propaganda.

Ah - so the message your shirt is supposed to convey is that the republicans have no problems whatsoever with the glorification of deception, spreading inaccurate information and possibly even lying ?

Hmm. I think you are being too hard on them - even though Fox news is trying pretty hard to convince me otherwise.

I will disagree with you about her being a socialist, but that's beside the point. The shirt is propaganda, and isn't propaganda about stretching the truth? In fact, just about all campaign materials are propaganda.

It isn't even propaganda, it is a reconfirmation of how fucking stupid Republicans are and what they will believe.

I won't agree Hillary is a communist, but I will agree that she has already had her terms of office while her husband was using the oval office to score pooty points.

Only the far lefties will vote for her, and some of them scare me.

ARRRRRGH

Stalin was a totalitarian psychopath who used the fig-leaf of Marx's (in)famous quote about the 'dictatorship of the proletariat' in the same manner as Lenin. He and his cronies executed a typically Russian dictatorship which bore very little to do with Communism's ultimate aim.

That said, it was symptomatic of what happens when you attempt to reach the ideal society via the path laid down by the Marxist-Leninists. It doesn't work, and you end up with a crap totalitarian authoritarian regime more interested in kicking the shit out of its subjects to stay in power rather than devolving power to the soviets and the people.

The last real Communists in Russia died at Kronstadt, or were exiled.

I'd of said insulting Lenin, but honestly insulting Stalin sounded funnier.

1. Hillary care = socialized medicine = socialist philosophy = socialism.

No more than having a socialized police force = socialist philosophy = socialism.

Only the far lefties will vote for her, and some of them scare me.

There are far lefties in the USA :o ? When did that happen ?

But are there no decent candidates at all ? That the reps and dems are unable to produce anything is saddening, but surely somewhere there must be some competence ?

I will disagree with you about her being a socialist, but that's beside the point. The shirt is propaganda, and isn't propaganda about stretching the truth? In fact, just about all campaign materials are propaganda.
The thing is I think that it's unintentional truth stretching based on ignorance of socialism.

The sad thing is Hillary is pandering to the extreme left of the party because they make up the majority of the membership that attends the Convention. It's sad that "average joe" with centrist ideals is left behind by both parties. I quit voting via party a long time ago and now I focus on each person, what they have done, and more importantly what I perceive them doing if elected.

Now for the shirt, hell wear it. I think statement T-shirts are a conversation piece people use as an ice breaker and have an appropriate place in society.

-HawdawgBut since Hillary is a centrist, you should have no problem voting for her.

I'd of said insulting Lenin, but honestly insulting Stalin sounded funnier.

Both are wrong, neither are particularly funny. Fail. Go to the back of the class, put this dunce hat on, and stand in the corner facing the wall. :mad:

I prefer my T-Shirts to advertise beer or computer games.

Still, I wouldn't kick the model out of bed. Might remove her top, though...

I prefer my T-Shirts to advertise beer or computer games.

Still, I wouldn't kick the model out of bed. Might remove her top, though...
Because you disagree with the message on the t-shirt, right?

People prefer it when I walk around topless.

Because you disagree with the message on the t-shirt, right?

Little from column A, little from column B.

Little from column A, little from column B.

But there was only one column...............

But there was only one column...............

No, that's what they wanted you to think. Don't listen to the Bilarist-Leninists!

Because you disagree with the message on the t-shirt, right?

Maybe...

Wearing a political ad is only a little less ridiculous than walking around wearing apparel that advertises a product.

'Re-defeat Communism' is no 'Frankie Say Arm The Unemployed'.

No, I wouldn't wear it because I don't support that statement.

Ah - so the message your shirt is supposed to convey is that the republicans have no problems whatsoever with the glorification of deception, spreading inaccurate information and possibly even lying ?

Hmm. I think you are being too hard on them - even though Fox news is trying pretty hard to convince me otherwise.

My shirt has nothing to do with Republicans. I am an Independent and am against Hillary for President. Simple.

My shirt has nothing to do with Republicans. I am an Independent and am against Hillary for President. Simple.

That just makes you look dumber for wearing it. And the shirt has everything to do with Republicans - they are the idiots who thinks she is a communist. All hail our Lord and Savior Ronald Reagan.

'Re-defeat Communism' is no 'Frankie Say Arm The Unemployed'.

Well 'Frankie Say Arm The Unemployed' is no 'How I Mine Fish? (http://www.zestuff.com/_gfx/products/20_i.jpg)'

But are there no decent candidates at all ? That the reps and dems are unable to produce anything is saddening, but surely somewhere there must be some competence ?

Somewhere...may of us are still looking...it is a long quest to find a politician that is competent. :(

My shirt has nothing to do with Republicans. I am an Independent and am against Hillary for President. Simple.

Ah. So it just means that you personally have no problem whatsoever with deceit and distortion of facts as long as it serves your interests ?

And apologies to the republicans*spanks himself*.

That just makes you look dumber for wearing it. And the shirt has everything to do with Republicans - they are the idiots who thinks she is a communist. All hail our Lord and Savior Ronald Reagan.

There are many people of all parties that looked up to Ronald Reagan. There are many people of all parties who look down on Hillary. :rolleyes:

Nope. The shirt is really scraping the bottom of the barrel for insults but in this case there is no bottom. It doesn't make sense. If you don't like Hilary at least dislike her in a correct way.

My shirt has nothing to do with Republicans. I am an Independent and am against Hillary for President. Simple.

In which case; lol @ u for wearing it. :p

If you're an Indypendynung, get a shirt that says "Yah Boo Sucks to Hillary" rather than that foolish one.

Ah. So it just means that you personally have no problem whatsoever with deceit and distortion of facts as long as it serves your interests ?

And apologies to the republicans*spanks himself*.

Name one politician of any party who has not used propaganda in their run for office.

Only if you would wear that one in public, Oklatex :p

http://www.spreadshirt.net/shop.php?op=article&article_id=4769163&p=2

Um... no.

Nor, I hope, would anyone with the slightest comprehension of the word "communism" and of Hillary Clinton's political positions.

Name one politician of any party who has not used propaganda in their run for office.

Saddam Hussein.

Name one politician of any party who has not used propaganda in their run for office.

Propaganda does not necessarily equal lies.

Propaganda (n) organized dissemination of information designed to assist or damage a political cause. - Collins Gem English Dictionary.

Propaganda is used by everyone, all the time. However, this T-Shirt is hideous incompetance and stupidity writ large; it is a frank declaration of the T-Shirt creator's idiocy.

Name one politician of any party who has not used propaganda in their run for office.

I cannot think of anyone. Which indeed is saddening.

However, it is not a politician using the propaganda here, isn't it ?
It is you.

Propaganda is used by everyone, all the time. However, this T-Shirt is hideous incompetance and stupidity writ large; it is a frank declaration of the T-Shirt creator's idiocy.

Perhaps you would prefer I wear this http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/rect-dnr-white.jpg or this http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/rect-lie-bk.jpg ?

I cannot think of anyone. Which indeed is saddening.

However, it is not a politician using the propaganda here, isn't it ?
It is you.

Yep, and doing so for political reasons.

Yep, and doing so for political reasons.

And that saddens me. My prime concern is that people should be free to make choices based on the facts - with almost every issue. Evolution vs ID ? Pro-life vs pro-choice ? Withdraw from Iraq or not ? Global warming caused by man or not ? Clinton for president ? The choice what to believe is always yours.

But if people start twisting the truth and deceiving others they are screwing with the principle of letting people choose for themselves. And that I think is repugnant.

Perhaps you would prefer I wear this http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/rect-dnr-white.jpg or this http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/rect-lie-bk.jpg ?

Either, to be honest; the second is more accurate.

Pity that all the alternatives are lying bastards too, eh? :p

Either, to be honest; the second is more accurate.

Pity that all the alternatives are lying bastards too, eh? :p

Yep, and on both sides possibly. I'm still waiting for a good third party candidate but that may be a futile wait. :(

Oklatex: What, specifically, do you have against Hillary Clinton?

Would you wear one? Oh, here is what the shirt looks like
http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/shirtsquare-redefeat.jpg

Damn right I would.

1. Hillary care = socialized medicine

No.

= socialist philosophy

No.

= socialism.

Maybe. Depends on what you mean by "socialism."

But since Hillary is a centrist, you should have no problem voting for her.


She's not a centrist, nor has she ever been one.

1. She isn't a native of New York, yet she felt like she "needed" to run for there Senate seat because she was "in touch" with there needs. I called BS on this when she first declared her canidacy, it was the only state she could get elected in because of her extreme left tendencies, plus they don't have a previous residency rule for senate candidates. She knew/knows as much about New York as I do about Nuclear Reactors.

2. Based on her track record, she doesn't have a history of compromising with others. Her take it or leave it philosophy won't work. In contrast, when George II was governor here in Texas he understood compromise, he simply forgot how that worked when he took up residency inside the beltway.

3. If she wins the nomination from the Democratic party, she will not garner enough votes from the South even though she is orginally from Arkansas. People down here don't agree with most of her politics. (Dem's should have learned this lesson last election cycle with there last forgettable candidate, Kerry)

4. Her personality puts many people off. Chalk it up to the law degree, her agressive speech presentation style, etc. tends to offend more than it unites.
(Gore didn't learn this and still rails about "the man", but heck he makes a killing doing it, why not right?)

5. I don't fault her for her husband's sexual perversions, but keeping him around for political purposes was the wrong thing to do. Once again call it old fashion values, etc. but many folks down here believe she should have sent him packing. Keeping him around for the "fundraising convenience" of a presidental run, puts their marriage in the category of "necessary evil" and makes a mockery of all of us that are truly in a union for the right reasons not the political ones.

6. The US is not ready for a female president. Call it sexiest, but the facts remain most mainstream voters will not cast a ballot for her because of her gender, married to Bill or not.



-Hawdawg

her extreme left tendencies

*bursts out laughing*

God, you people are so utterly clueless about "extreme left tendencies"....

*bursts out laughing*

God, you people are so utterly clueless about "extreme left tendencies"....

Instead of offering up an insult maybe you would care to expand on your definition and have a mature debate about this?

The facts remain politics in this day and time are extreme on both ends and I am sick of being called a "liberal or conservative" if I don't drink the cool-aid which ever group is passing out to the minions.

i would wear that shirt, as well as a few other shirts offered at that site.

i would mostly wear it around certain people to piss them off. they do the same thing with their shirts to get at us.

Instead of offering up an insult maybe you would care to expand on your definition and have a mature debate about this?

The facts remain politics in this day and time are extreme on both ends and I am sick of being called a "liberal or conservative" if I don't drink the cool-aid which ever group is passing out to the minions.

I think he was referrring to the fact that the majority of political parties in Europe is far more "left wing" than anything ever seen in the USA, without even coming near being communist.

The facts remain

The only fact that remains is that Hillary is nowhere close to being "extreme left".

Oklatex: What, specifically, do you have against Hillary Clinton?

Well;
Politics…I don’t like her politics.
I don’t want to see taxes raised to pay for social welfare. I would much rather see programs developed to help people out of poverty by providing education, jobs, etc that don’t penalize people who do get jobs. In our welfare, system if a person starts earning above a specified level the loose all assistance. I would much rather see a system where the benefits are gradually reduced as income rises. Once the individual is above the poverty level, all assistance would be reduced to zero. I don’t see her or Obama proposing such a program.
I want to see a realistic reform of the Social Security system and I don’t see her leading that effort.
I don’t see her leading this nation to energy independence by drilling our own oil and developing alternative fuels. I see her as cutting our military, as was done during her husbands administration, rather than strengthening it. I do not see securing our borders and proposing some real, viable immigration reform.

Personality…I do not see her as a person who really cares about other people. I do not see her as a sincere person. She is not a person who will stand up for something she believes in but will change her position based on the politics of the moment. I see her as a very shroud, cunning and conniving individual who will do almost anything to get what she wants no matter whom it hurts.

That sums it up.

Doesn't sound like a communist to me.

I think he was referrring to the fact that the majority of political parties in Europe is far more "left wing" than anything ever seen in the USA, without even coming near being communist.

Probably, but one must keep in mind we are talking American politics and the liberal left here is a lot closer what could be considered the center elsewhere. Most Europeans would probably consider FDR a centrist while many Americans would consider him a socialist. Got to keep things in context.

Probably, but one must keep in mind we are talking American politics and the liberal left here is a lot closer what could be considered the center elsewhere. Most Europeans would probably consider FDR a centrist while many Americans would consider him a socialist. Got to keep things in context.

While one could argue that "extreme left for US standards" is a valid statement, the different forms of socialism and communism are quite well defined and not a matter of "relative to..."
Most Europeans consider the American parties right wing btw.

Probably, but one must keep in mind we are talking American politics and the liberal left here is a lot closer what could be considered the center elsewhere. Most Europeans would probably consider FDR a centrist while many Americans would consider him a socialist. Got to keep things in context.

The scale is not fluid. Your attempt at bastardisation is flawed.

The scale is not fluid. Your attempt at bastardisation is flawed.

The same word can mean different things in different context. Liberal left wing in American politics does not have the same meaning as it does in European politics.

Well;
Politics…I don’t like her politics.
I don’t want to see taxes raised to pay for social welfare. I would much rather see programs developed to help people out of poverty by providing education, jobs, etc that don’t penalize people who do get jobs. In our welfare, system if a person starts earning above a specified level the loose all assistance. I would much rather see a system where the benefits are gradually reduced as income rises. Once the individual is above the poverty level, all assistance would be reduced to zero. I don’t see her or Obama proposing such a program.
I want to see a realistic reform of the Social Security system and I don’t see her leading that effort.
I don’t see her leading this nation to energy independence by drilling our own oil and developing alternative fuels. I see her as cutting our military, as was done during her husbands administration, rather than strengthening it. I do not see securing our borders and proposing some real, viable immigration reform.

Personality…I do not see her as a person who really cares about other people. I do not see her as a sincere person. She is not a person who will stand up for something she believes in but will change her position based on the politics of the moment. I see her as a very shroud, cunning and conniving individual who will do almost anything to get what she wants no matter whom it hurts.

That sums it up.

QFT

So who would you suggest instead?

The same word can mean different things in different context. Liberal left wing in American politics does not have the same meaning as it does in European politics.

...because "liberal left wing" in America isn't that liberal or left wing. It isn't communist or socialist in any way.

Probably, but one must keep in mind we are talking American politics and the liberal left here is a lot closer what could be considered the center elsewhere. Most Europeans would probably consider FDR a centrist while many Americans would consider him a socialist. Got to keep things in context.
I think that the american left looks more right to me... but regardless of what the US considers left or right doesn't change the fact that Hillary isn't a communist or a socialist. Relative left and right = fine. Changing definitions of words = not fine.

QFT

So who would you suggest instead?

That's a damn good question. No one in either party really excites me at this point. Hillary, Obama, Edwards, and McCain are out in my book. I'm looking at Guiliani and Romney. I need to know more about Richardson. I'm hoping for a good strong centrist third party candidate but don't see that happen. As I can't vote in the primary election it might come down to having to vote for the lesser of two evils.

Instead of offering up an insult maybe you would care to expand on your definition and have a mature debate about this?

The facts remain politics in this day and time are extreme on both ends and I am sick of being called a "liberal or conservative" if I don't drink the cool-aid which ever group is passing out to the minions.
A "mature debate" would require an informed opponent.

That's a damn good question. No one in either party really excites me at this point. Hillary, Obama, Edwards, and McCain are out in my book. I'm looking at Guiliani and Romney. I need to know more about Richardson. I'm hoping for a good strong centrist third party candidate but don't see that happen. As I can't vote in the primary election it might come down to having to vote for the lesser of two evils.

Gravel seems like a solid choice to me.

And if you ask who he is, that's part of why he should be elected.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Gravel#Political_positions
http://www.ontheissues.org/Mike_Gravel.htm

Well;
Politics…I don’t like her politics.
I don’t want to see taxes raised to pay for social welfare.
And? What part of "social welfare" don't you want to see? No blanket medical coverage?

I would much rather see programs developed to help people out of poverty by providing education, jobs, etc that don’t penalize people who do get jobs. You can't have fresh milk if you refuse to raise cows. If you don't want social welfare, you can't have people keep getting support after getting a job.

In our welfare, system
Bullshit talking point of the rightwing pundits, go back 3 spaces.

if a person starts earning above a specified level the loose all assistance. I would much rather see a system where the benefits are gradually reduced as income rises. Once the individual is above the poverty level, all assistance would be reduced to zero.
So you want a system like the one we have now?

I don’t see her or Obama proposing such a program.
Because they don't want to propose programs as fucking stupid and pointless as ones that already exist. We will have government supported welfare up to an arbitrarily defined point and then cease it. Yeah, already have that, it's retarded.

I don’t see her leading this nation to energy independence by drilling our own oil
I thought you didn't want a communist government, do you want nationalized oil companies? We already drill domestically, if I recall, it isn't too well fit for conversion to consumer grade gas and oil.

and developing alternative fuels. We will have a good chance at developing alternate fuels when we stop pandering to the Agriculture lobby.

I see her as cutting our military, as was done during her husbands administration, rather than strengthening it.
So we can deploy it willy-nilly?

I do not see securing our borders
Impregnable border security, which everyone seems to want, is impractical and impossible.


And with all that, now you look even dumber for wearing a Defeat Communism shirt with Hillary crossed out because you don't like her because she doesn't propose socialist policies. You fail at logic, politics, and choosing your own clothes.

And with all that, now you look even dumber for wearing a Defeat Communism shirt with Hillary crossed out because you don't like her because she doesn't propose socialist policies. You fail at logic, politics, and choosing your own clothes.

No, it's not that.

'Commie' is just used to incite remnants of Cold War hate.

The same word can mean different things in different context. Liberal left wing in American politics does not have the same meaning as it does in European politics.

That's because "liberal" and "left-wing" are mostly opposites. You do know that liberalism is an economic policy that favours individualism, unregulated free markets and capitalism, right? I mean, you can't be that ignorant of political philosophy that you've never heard of the likes of Adam Smith and John Stuart Mill, with their "supplies and demand" and "invisible hands" and so forth. Yeah, real "left-wingers", those... :rolleyes:

The cluelessness is astounding.

Would you wear one? Oh, here is what the shirt looks like

I wouldn't wear one. Mainly because of the fact that I'm not living in the US of A ;)

The cluelessness is astounding.

I love you to Fass. :fluffle: Here have some cookies and milk.

It really is sad how right-wing the USA has become. Nowadays anyone who is not a hardcore conservative is branded "liberal", "communist", "socialist", et cetera. Hilary is a centrist; the thread starter obviously has no idea what true communism or socialism is.

I love you to Fass. :fluffle:

To != too.

Here have some cookies and milk.

I don't accept animal secretions.

I don't accept animal secretions.

They could be ginger molasses cookies and soy milk ...

They could be ginger molasses cookies and soy milk ...

Look at the source. I highly doubt that ethics would influence his dietary choices.

We did quite a bit of shopping yesterday and both wore our shirts. First, we went to the Middle East food market to get some olives, olive oil and spices but the first comment of “I like your shirts,” came while we were shopping at Aldis. We then went to the carpet and tile store to borrow some tiles to see how they looked on the entryway floor. When we returned about 30 minutes later a lady outside said, “I like your shirts. Where did you get them?"

After taking the tiles we bought home, we went to the farm and ranch store to get some overalls for my father-in-law and a pair of jeans for me. As we were checking out the clerk asked us if we were Republicans. We replied, “No, Independents.” We needed some wine and bourbon so it was on to the liquor store. I’ve worn my shirt in there before and received positive comments, but this was the first time my wife wore hers and they gave her a very appreciative smile. From there, it was on to the grocery store where one checkout clerk said, “I like your shirts,” and the other asked, “Are you Republicans?”

It’s a great shirt and every time I wear it, I get positive comments especially form young people.

Would you wear one? Oh, here is what the shirt looks like
http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/shirtsquare-redefeat.jpg

While this is obviously the work of a troll, it does occur to me that anyone who honestly thinks there is a connection between Clinton and Communism would probably have to have the words on this T-shirt read to them.

*rubbish*

You are a retard with no education. Maybe you should look up the word communism in a dictionary. The evil thing for the world is that some dumbass like you may vote in an election that has a global impact. That boy shouldn't have shot that hog but you instead.

No, she is not a communist, however she is a socialist. I think the shirt sends the message that we do not like her politics.

Nah, I'd say it sends the message that you don't know what her politics are.

I enjoy wearing funny, original shirts

Which is why I would not wear this

Only the far lefties will vote for her, and some of them scare me.

Eh. Kid...

I'm no far lefty in anyone's book. If Hillary Clinton wins the Democratic nomination, I will not only vote for her in the General Election, but I will volunteer for her campaign. The "far left" hates her, completely. This has been a Rethuglican smear since day one, and it is patently false. Nevertheless, I will support her over whoever the Republic Party chooses to nominate, because nothing could be worse than four more years with the Bush/Reagan clone that will be nominated.

Wearing a political ad is only a little less ridiculous than walking around wearing apparel that advertises a product.

true. I wouldn't wear the shirt in the OP though......I tend to wear ones that make people ask me questions, that way I can bore them with my political philosophy.

I wouldn't wear one, but I'm glad you are. Frankly anything that makes the idiots easier to pick out of the crowd is a good thing.

Would you consider a red nose and some giant shoes too? I think LG could spare you some.

You are a retard with no education. Maybe you should look up the word communism in a dictionary. The evil thing for the world is that some dumbass like you may vote in an election that has a global impact. That boy shouldn't have shot that hog but you instead.

BA in Business
MA in Education
So, I am not an uneducated retard thank you.

BA in Business
MA in Education
So, I am not an uneducated retard thank you.

But your knowledge of politics could use some polishing. And as an ex-student, I am certain you know that libraries and the net can be your friend ;)

There are far lefties in the USA :o ? When did that happen ?

But are there no decent candidates at all ? That the reps and dems are unable to produce anything is saddening, but surely somewhere there must be some competence ?

There are far lefties in America, yeah. Giuliani and Obama are good candidates, but Giuliani's too much of a moderate to win the Republican nomination.

Eh. Kid...

I'm no far lefty in anyone's book. If Hillary Clinton wins the Democratic nomination, I will not only vote for her in the General Election, but I will volunteer for her campaign. The "far left" hates her, completely. This has been a Rethuglican smear since day one, and it is patently false. Nevertheless, I will support her over whoever the Republic Party chooses to nominate, because nothing could be worse than four more years with the Bush/Reagan clone that will be nominated.

Well, you do that.

Would you wear one? Oh, here is what the shirt looks like
http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/shirtsquare-redefeat.jpg

Nope... I don't understand that T-Shirt.

Nah, I'd say it sends the message that you don't know what her politics are.
QFT.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

The model is cute (http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/model-rdf-4.jpg)

Not wearing that shirt, she isn't.

Not wearing that shirt, she isn't.

Hell, the first thing you would want her to do is take the shirt off, so what difference does it make what the lettering on it says. :p

Would you wear one?

No, because I don't want to come across as someone who knows nothing about communism.

I didn't miss you, why did you come back?

I didn't miss you, why did you come back?

Harsh words... harsh words.

Would you wear one?

Why would I want people to think I don't know anything about politics?

I didn't miss you, why did you come back?

Who are you talking to? Who came back?

You obviously have no idea what communism or any branch of socialism entails. No I would not wear the shirt, because I'd vote for Hillary.

clinton isn't necessarily communist, but i still wouldn't vote for her. She has no grasp of the real issues, she only tries to capitalize on Bush's numerous mistakes. Basically, if you didn't like Bush, Vote for me

Who are you talking to? Who came back?

Oh, did I say that? Hrm.

Well.. Welcome back, Celtlund.

Oh, did I say that? Hrm.

Well.. Welcome back, Celtlund.

How did you ever guess, although Smun did a long time ago. Guess I'm addicted to this place. Thanks for the welcome back. :fluffle:

How did you ever guess, although Smun did a long time ago. Guess I'm addicted to this place. Thanks for the welcome back. :fluffle:

You couldn't just come back as "That old guy Celtlund," eh?

...erm so you brought a shirt from the knee jerk fascist T-shirt store

I also despise black clothing for lack of funky

Ahahaha, no!!!

Skinny black jeans and skinny black t-shirt allow for increased emphasis upon funky underwear and beltage.

We did quite a bit of shopping yesterday and both wore our shirts. First, we went to the Middle East food market to get some olives, olive oil and spices but the first comment of “I like your shirts,” came while we were shopping at Aldis. We then went to the carpet and tile store to borrow some tiles to see how they looked on the entryway floor. When we returned about 30 minutes later a lady outside said, “I like your shirts. Where did you get them?"

After taking the tiles we bought home, we went to the farm and ranch store to get some overalls for my father-in-law and a pair of jeans for me. As we were checking out the clerk asked us if we were Republicans. We replied, “No, Independents.” We needed some wine and bourbon so it was on to the liquor store. I’ve worn my shirt in there before and received positive comments, but this was the first time my wife wore hers and they gave her a very appreciative smile. From there, it was on to the grocery store where one checkout clerk said, “I like your shirts,” and the other asked, “Are you Republicans?”

It’s a great shirt and every time I wear it, I get positive comments especially form young people.

Would you wear one? Oh, here is what the shirt looks like
http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/shirtsquare-redefeat.jpg
thats funny, I received an anonymous e-mail with a similar story.
same T-shirt.

The e-mail said I was going to get bad karma if I didnt forward the e-mail to 5 other people. :rolleyes:

No, she is not a communist, however she is a socialist. I think the shirt sends the message that we do not like her politics.

No, it sends a message that you have no knowledge of politics full-stop.

clinton isn't necessarily communist, but i still wouldn't vote for her. She has no grasp of the real issues, she only tries to capitalize on Bush's numerous mistakes. Basically, if you didn't like Bush, Vote for me

There's no 'necessarily' about it. Clinton is to communist, as Jesus is to ninja.

Id wear it...not because I think Hillary is a communist but because I would enjoy the reactions it would bring from people...I mean i regularly wear clothing from tshirthell and that's some offensive stuff

You couldn't just come back as "That old guy Celtlund," eh?

No but I can put "The old fart" on my sig. :p

Id wear it...not because I think Hillary is a communist but because I would enjoy the reactions it would bring from people...I mean i regularly wear clothing from tshirthell and that's some offensive stuff

All the comments I've received so far have been positive. A few strange looks though but they were probably communist Hillary supporters. :D

All the comments I've received so far have been positive. A few strange looks though but they were probably communist Hillary supporters. :D

I wonder if you realise that nothing is going to push people to support Clinton, quite like this kind of nonsensical hysteria from the opposite lines?

lol

no i would never wear one, i dont like democrats, and im a communist, this shirt is just fascist, and trys to portray her as an evil person. I do like republicans.

wait...you're a communist..and you like republicans...have you hit your head on something?

wait...you're a communist..and you like republicans...have you hit your head on something?

Why? Are you under the unfortunate misapprehension that there is an intrinsic conflict, there?

I wonder if you realise that nothing is going to push people to support Clinton, quite like this kind of nonsensical hysteria from the opposite lines?

Ahhh...the old "backlash theory." Could be I'm a communist in disguise who wants Hillary elected? :eek:

no i would never wear one, i dont like democrats, and im a communist, this shirt is just fascist, and trys to portray her as an evil person. I do like republicans.

communist... + Republican????

*Head explodes*

no i would never wear one, i dont like democrats, and im a communist, this shirt is just fascist, and trys to portray her as an evil person. I do like republicans.

A communist who likes Republicans? :confused: That damn sure doesn't compute.

Ahhh...the old "backlash theory." Could be I'm a communist in disguise who wants Hillary elected? :eek:

The 'old backlash theory' gave Dems a majority in '06.

I fail to see why a communist would want Clinton elected, though.

no, look i had to chose the lesser of two evils, the democrats are panzys theyare mad at everything that we do, if you like something they will find a way to make it dangerous.

The 'old backlash theory' gave Dems a majority in '06.

I fail to see why a communist would want Clinton elected, though.

Would they rather have John McCain, Romney, Rudy, or Fred Thompson? I think not. Especially with Putan starting to gin up Cold War II.

communist... + Republican????

*Head explodes*

I'm beginning to think Dems could assure an '08 victory by pushing a 'minimum education needed to be allowed to vote' clause...

no, look i had to chose the lesser of two evils, the democrats are panzys theyare mad at everything that we do, if you like something they will find a way to make it dangerous.

Unfortunately, it seems so true sometimes. :(

Would they rather have John McCain, Romney, Rudy, or Fred Thompson? I think not. Especially with Putan starting to gin up Cold War II.

I'd rather have Koch.

Unfortunately, it seems so true sometimes. :(

very true comrade

Why? Are you under the unfortunate misapprehension that there is an intrinsic conflict, there?

Well, there is this whole capitalist thing... y'know.... that the republicans ... like... support.

Well, there is this whole capitalist thing... y'know.... that the republicans ... like... support.

No moreso than Dems, I'm sure... and less 'purely' than Libertarians.

I'm not entirely sure 'capitalism, yo' is actually a core Republican issue, per se, any how.

I realize that, they support capatilism, but the dems will bring down the country, they are the bad form of communism(basically the pussy version), they could never become as great as the USSR, the country would be split. so even as a communist i have to admit the republicans are the better party of the two

I realize that, they support capatilism, but the dems will bring down the country, they are the bad form of communism(basically the pussy version), they could never become as great as the USSR, the country would be split. so even as a communist i have to admit the republicans are the better party of the two

They are the 'bad form of communism' in as much as they are not communism.

I'm beginning to wonder if the average NSer even understands the concepts... even those who would like to be perceived as 'communists'.

All i basically said was that Republicans are better than democrats out of the two.

I'd rather have Koch.

He isn't running. They (communists) would prefer him to the others though but they wouldn't like his $$$.

They are the 'bad form of communism' in as much as they are not communism.

I'm beginning to wonder if the average NSer even understands the concepts... even those who would like to be perceived as 'communists'.

This, of course, includes knowing the difference between Marxist, Trotskyist, Stalinist, Leninist, anarcho-syndicalist, anarcho-communist, and WWII-era populism in Latin America.

No moreso than Dems, I'm sure... and less 'purely' than Libertarians.

I'm not entirely sure 'capitalism, yo' is actually a core Republican issue, per se, any how.

But, unless you believe in some form of gradual revolution process through capitalism that marx theorized, you tend to support... y'know.... more communist/socialist parties.

They are the 'bad form of communism' in as much as they are not communism.

I'm beginning to wonder if the average NSer even understands the concepts... even those who would like to be perceived as 'communists'.

Is this saying that Marxist-Leninists are not communists, or that all communists are the same as Marxist-Leninists?

North Calaveras, why wouldn't you support the American Communist Party, or one of the many other actual communist groups in America, rather than the Republicans?

I believe in Marxest-Leninist with some Moaism

I realize that, they support capatilism, but the dems will bring down the country, they are the bad form of communism(basically the pussy version), they could never become as great as the USSR, the country would be split. so even as a communist i have to admit the republicans are the better party of the two

You are no Communist if you think the Republicans are the better party. Remember it was a Republican President that brought the Iron Curtin crashing down.

They are the 'bad form of communism' in as much as they are not communism.

I'm beginning to wonder if the average NSer even understands the concepts... even those who would like to be perceived as 'communists'.

I don't think most do. I don't think most could distinguish between Marxest-Leninist communism and Soviet communism.

I believe in Marxest-Leninist with some Moaism

Can I ask how old you are?

OCC: No you may not

I believe in Marxest-Leninist with some Moaism

There's no way you can be Marxest. I'm much Marxer than you, so you can't be the Marxest.

OCCwtf are you talking about, so what if your "more Marxest" dosnt mean i dont beleive in the idealogy, and further your question about my age, are you implying that im a kid? lol

Remember it was a Republican President that brought the Iron Curtin crashing down.

Gorbachev was neither Republican, nor was he a president.

OCC: No you may not

This is not RP, there is no IC. I just want to see that my there of there being no such thing as a maoist above 14 is true.

I don't think most do. I don't think most could distinguish between Marxest-Leninist communism and Soviet communism.

Marxist-Leninist communism was the type they had in the Soviet Union, unless you are talking about the Soviets of 1917-21 (at the latest).

Hydesland, I'm pretty sure there are a few real Maoists still knocking around. Some of the old folk from People's Democracy, probably, for one. Plus half a dozen groups in Asia. They're the ones I know off the top of my head.

Can I ask how old you are?

He she must be 11 years old, 13 at the most. :D

is there such a thing of a moaist ove 14 yes there is a such a thing all over the world, but i dont believe in moaism very much.

OCCwtf are you talking about, so what if your "more Marxest" dosnt mean i dont beleive in the idealogy, and further your question about my age, are you implying that im a kid? lol

It's not possible to be 'more Marxest'. If you are the Marxest, then by definition no one is Marxer than you. I don't see what the trouble is here.

OCCwtf are you talking about, so what if your "more Marxest" dosnt mean i dont beleive in the idealogy, and further your question about my age, are you implying that im a kid? lol

Hes taking the piss about how you can't spell marxist.

sorry, im lazy when it comes to spelling lol

Hes taking the piss about how you can't spell marxist.

Now why did you have to go and say that? You ruin it all.

and what if im older?

well, what do you want to bet on that buddy, how about your ability to judge ideals?

is there such a thing of a moaist ove 14 yes there is a such a thing all over the world, but i dont believe in moaism very much.

Well how old are you then, i'm willing to bet that you're under 14.

Well how old are you then, i'm willing to bet that you're under 14.

Stop bullying the child. If you feel his age invalidates his opinion, then ignore it. If not, then his age is of no concern to you.

Now why did you have to go and say that? You ruin it all.

He's just a kid ;)

and what if im older?

Then i'd be wrong.

what do you want to bet me, that if im older, i dont want to just walk away from this i want to make a point.

and what if im older?

You aren't. Your immaturity is showing. Hell, this old fart shouldn't bait you. Sorry. :fluffle:

Stop bullying the child. If you feel his age invalidates his opinion, then ignore it. If not, then his age is of no concern to you.

B..b..b..but my theory!

B..b..b..but my theory!

No offence, twas a bit pants anyways. There might only be a handful of em, but there are some grown-ups who are Maoists.

He isn't running. They (communists) would prefer him to the others though but they wouldn't like his $$$.

http://www.dave08.com/

?

Poor fool seems to think he's running.

IM NOT completely MOAIST!!!!

This, of course, includes knowing the difference between Marxist, Trotskyist, Stalinist, Leninist, anarcho-syndicalist, anarcho-communist, and WWII-era populism in Latin America.

Even the simple realisation that communism is, fundamentally, an economic model, would be a start.

I guess we all need a cookie and milk break followed by a nap. Here, have some cookies and milk. Faas, you go first please. :fluffle:

B..b..b..but my theory!

Does not excuse "cyber bullying". Grow up.

But, unless you believe in some form of gradual revolution process through capitalism that marx theorized, you tend to support... y'know.... more communist/socialist parties.

Quite the opposite, surely?

Those who do suggest a gradual transition would support an intermediary...

Even the simple realisation that communism is, fundamentally, an economic model, would be a start.

That would help things out.

Too bad the Communist Manifesto threw that one all off with the binding of the economic ideology with political belief.

No offence, twas a bit pants anyways. There might only be a handful of em, but there are some grown-ups who are Maoists.

I know. But what I can say for certain, is that at least in western countries, at least 95% of them are kids.

Even the simple realisation that communism is, fundamentally, an economic model, would be a start.

Calling it an economic model is a bit of an over-simplification - it leaves out the whole class-struggle thing, which is even more fundamental than the economics.

very true, i know no other communists period, besides in NS

http://www.dave08.com/

?

Poor fool seems to think he's running.

Damn! I stand corrected. Maybe he can buy the election. :p

Is this saying that Marxist-Leninists are not communists, or that all communists are the same as Marxist-Leninists?


No.

It is saying that there seems to be an inability on the part of many discussing the concepts, to even realise that 'communism' is an economic model... and that 'modern communism' is not one formulaic Marxist vision.

your implying that if im younger than or at 14 i cannot interpret the ideals.

Does not excuse "cyber bullying". Grow up.

It's hardly bullying. Just a bit of harmless banter.

Calling it an economic model is a bit of an over-simplification - it leaves out the whole class-struggle thing, which is even more fundamental than the economics.

This is where communism diverges into Marxism et cetera

Marxist-Leninist communism was the type they had in the Soviet Union, unless you are talking about the Soviets of 1917-21 (at the latest).

Hydesland, I'm pretty sure there are a few real Maoists still knocking around. Some of the old folk from People's Democracy, probably, for one. Plus half a dozen groups in Asia. They're the ones I know off the top of my head.

I've heard several news stories in recent months about a fairly strong Maoist element in India...?

Quite the opposite, surely?

Those who do suggest a gradual transition would support an intermediary...

Well then that pretty much rules out the republicans in any case, if that is true.

No.

It is saying that there seems to be an inability on the part of many discussing the concepts, to even realise that 'communism' is an economic model... and that 'modern communism' is not one formulaic Marxist vision.

Economic and political model.

should i just make a thread, how about Communism vs. THE WORLD

That would help things out.

Too bad the Communist Manifesto threw that one all off with the binding of the economic ideology with political belief.

"The Communist Manifesto" is neither stone, nor ordained by God. It certainly does not define the be all and end all of permutations of communism.

Which is why, when you are talking about 'communism', you have to realise that the thing permutations of communism share - is the economic model - because that is what makes them 'communist'.

Economic and political model.

No.

A party can be called a (or the) communist party - and that makes that party political, perhaps. But 'communism' is purely economic.

No.

A party can be called a (or the) communist party - and that makes that party political, perhaps. But 'communism' is purely economic.


true comrade

I still like my shirt. :D
http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/shirtsquare-redefeat.jpg

should i just make a thread, how about Communism vs. THE WORLD

Maybe you could even make it in the role-playing forum.

what's up with the age question, what does age have to do with it? What if you were a Cuban Republican(hypothetically speaking) and i said, what are you 10?

I still like my shirt. :D

I still like the way it makes you look.

"The Communist Manifesto" is neither stone, nor ordained by God. It certainly does not define the be all and end all of permutations of communism.

Which is why, when you are talking about 'communism', you have to realise that the thing permutations of communism share - is the economic model - because that is what makes them 'communist'.

Exactly, hence the "thrown off".

The Manifesto made people think communism was one formulaic vision.

No.

A party can be called a (or the) communist party - and that makes that party political, perhaps. But 'communism' is purely economic.

Altough I think it's safe to say that most of the people who call themselves communist tend to support marxist political beliefs as well. Someone who has specific beliefs about how they would incorprate the communist model wouldn't normally call themselves just "communist".

This is where communism diverges into Marxism et cetera

Y'see, this is where it gets confusing. Generally, I use communism to refer to Marxist threads, particularly M-L, because a) it's shorter and b) I never know whether it should be Marxism-Leninism, Marxist-Leninism, or what. And there isn't much of communism that isn't at least partially Marxist or defining itself in response to Marx (even anarcho-communism and all the post-Marxist mumbo-jumbo).

Yeah, India, Nepal, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Afghanistan, and the Philippines seem to have Maoist or Maoist-supported groups in SE Asia alone. Plus, there's the Shining Path in Peru, and a group in Turkey, both fighting revolutionary wars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Internationalist_Movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Conference_of_Marxist-Leninist_Parties_and_Organizations_%28International_Newsletter%29

Grave_n_idle, by common economic model, you mean the common ownership of the means of production, right?

I think were getting away from the thread right now, or are we?

Y'see, this is where it gets confusing. Generally, I use communism to refer to Marxist threads, particularly M-L, because a) it's shorter and b) I never know whether it should be Marxism-Leninism, Marxist-Leninism, or what. And there isn't much of communism that isn't at least partially Marxist or defining itself in response to Marx (even anarcho-communism and all the post-Marxist mumbo-jumbo).

Yeah, India, Nepal, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Afghanistan, and the Philippines seem to have Maoist or Maoist-supported groups in SE Asia alone. Plus, there's the Shining Path in Peru, and a group in Turkey, both fighting revolutionary wars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Internationalist_Movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Conference_of_Marxist-Leninist_Parties_and_Organizations_%28International_Newsletter%29

Here's a rudimentary breakdown of it all:

Authoritarian Communism---------------------------

Mao

Stalin

Latin American Populism movements

Centrists--------------------------------------

Lenin

Trotsky

Marx

Anarcho-communism------------------------------




I was unable to show how far left/right each group was and I may have gotten some a bit out of order... but it's a basic idea.

Were Getting Off Subject Now Make A New Thread

Centrists--------------------------------------

...

Trotsky



Trotsky was a radical left communist. Not a centrist.

To state it again since you did not get the subtle hint: Americans are not the world and so please make it clear that the topic is america-specific BEFORE urging us to follow links.

And now wear a T-Shirt with Schäuble and "STASI 2.0" on it and stand in the corner! :p

No.

A party can be called a (or the) communist party - and that makes that party political, perhaps. But 'communism' is purely economic.

Ha. I beg to differ, good fellow. Communism is the political application of socialism--hence the Soviet Union is referred to as "communist." If it were purely an economic construct--which it is not--the soviet union, China, et al would not be referred to as "communist" in the same way the US is referred to as "democratic." But beyond that, socialism is the economic arm of communism--communism fuses politics and economics into governmental policy and control.

Putting Lenin and Trotsky outside of authoritarian communism? NO WAY. I don't know much about Latin American populism, but if we're talking Allende and the like, then they are left-wing on the regular political scale and then very far away from the authoritarian strains or indeed revolutionary communism. Cuba was closer to Maoism, not entirely sure where it stands now. Somewhere between M-L and social democracy I guess. Chavez is towards the social democracy end of things.

Bourgeoisie Elite, you're failing to take into consideration the variety of different meanings of the word. 'Communism', particularly in US usage, means what you say. In more technical usage, it can refer to what Grave_n_idle is saying, or to a particular stage of M-L historical progression. The same qualification about semantics goes for socialism. As for "communism fusing politics and economics into governmental policy and control" - every government on the planet does that.

Welcome back Celtlund.


Now stop making stupid threads about silly t-shirts, and claiming to support the blatantly wrongful and stupid claims that those t-shirts proclaim. One thing is for sure, you haven't spent the time away from NSG discovering what socialism or communism is.

Ha. I beg to differ, good fellow. Communism is the political application of socialism--hence the Soviet Union is referred to as "communist." If it were purely an economic construct--which it is not--the soviet union, China, et al would not be referred to as "communist" in the same way the US is referred to as "democratic." But beyond that, socialism is the economic arm of communism--communism fuses politics and economics into governmental policy and control.

In America, a lot of people use the word 'communism' as though it were opposite of democracy.

That is because, they are wrong.

There is no quibbling... they are just wrong.

A 'communist' society can be authoritarian, or it can be anarchic. It can be statist, syndicalist, etc. It can be one huge movement, or thousands of individuals.

The reason the USSR was a despotism, was because it was a despotism... not because it was 'communist'. It is entirely possible to be despotic and capitalistic. It is equally possible to be democratic and communistic.

Altough I think it's safe to say that most of the people who call themselves communist tend to support marxist political beliefs as well. Someone who has specific beliefs about how they would incorprate the communist model wouldn't normally call themselves just "communist".

Why?

I disagree. I think people who subscribe to a very specific doctrine, tend to refer to that doctrine, rather than to an overarching 'communism'... they call themselves Maoists, Marxists, Leninists, whatever.

Exactly, hence the "thrown off".

The Manifesto made people think communism was one formulaic vision.

I don't think 'The Manifesto' was the problem. I think communism was demonised by frightened rich people (perhaps only to be expected) after the Russian Revolution, and almost a hundred years have been spent trying to make communism LOOK like one formulaic vision, in order to present it as some kind of 'evil'.

Much the same way that Bush and his friends are demonising 'Islam', right now.

I wouldn't wear a shirt like that because it would make me look like an idiot if I did.

United Beleriand - forumbanned for five days. this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12729687&postcount=102) is utterly unacceptable and you ought to know it.

The Pantless Hero - forumbanned for three days. this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12729079&postcount=14) and this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12729160&postcount=34) and this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12729589&postcount=90) are unacceptable also.

Everyone - this thread is an example of how you should not debate. Way too many ad hominem attacks, people.

~ Tsarmageddon Is Not Amused