NationStates Jolt Archive

Thank G-d.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19003519/

Now, I'm a little skeptical about this working. It would require the Israelis to stop raids in the West Bank, something they won't be too happy about.

Personally, I think Israel should go for it. If they later decide that giving terrorists in the West Bank room to build up, they can give Hamas the bad news.

My prediction of UB's comments:
Israel won't go for it. They aren't interested in peace.

So... Hamas suddenly doesn't want to destroy Israel? They will tolerate Israel's existence? Right...

Well, I haven't got my flying license yet, (pigs, or rather Piggs aren't flying yet) so this must mean that hell has frozen over..

Either that, or Hamas is playing a late april fools joke.

"We want to make peace!"

"April fools!"

"Now Die heathens!"

Someone on either side or both will sabotage it.

Someone on either side or both will sabotage it.

I'll go with Both.

You mean, Hamas proposes a temporary lull in the fighting in which to regroup, rearm, and then seek to annihilate Israel once more.

Lets just let em off the chain and have the middle east go at it without outside intervention..

You mean, Hamas proposes a temporary lull in the fighting in which to regroup, rearm, and then seek to annihilate Israel once more.

In other words.

*nods*

While I too am sceptical of Hamas intentions, I think we should give them space to breath to see... maybe all the internal fighting between Hamas and Fatah has changed something for them.

I like the idea of a cease fire and starting peace. However the cease fire is only temporary and it won't last long. Both are probably regrouping for the next attack in hopes of screwing the other one over. They are still at war and will be for a long time.

Thank G-d.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19003519/

Now, I'm a little skeptical about this working. It would require the Israelis to stop raids in the West Bank, something they won't be too happy about.

Personally, I think Israel should go for it. If they later decide that giving terrorists in the West Bank room to build up, they can give Hamas the bad news.

My prediction of UB's comments:

This is good news. Thirty percent chance of actually working but it is good news none the less. Hopefully the Israelis go for this.

No surprise.

Israel rejects proposal.
Israel's government said Wednesday that a cease-fire with Palestinian militants is not on the table, and its military will continue to target militants in Gaza.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/05/30/israel.palestinians/index.html

Two words, that when used in conjunction with one another would satisfactorily relay my first opinion of this....

Yeah, right.

Hamas has been saying that it'll happily have a cease-fire with Israel for months now. On top of that there is a significant group within it which wants to talk to Israel about recognition in exchange for stuff like the right to return.

I believe the phrase used was something like "we're dealing with reality", as in, Israel exists, we can't change it; we're going to try and deal with it.

But, of course, the Israeli government doesn't care and won't try and stop the violence as long as it thinks that that will serve its own ends, whatever those may be *cough*annex West Bank*cough*.

No surprise.

Israel rejects proposal.


http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/05/30/israel.palestinians/index.html


So sad. Makes one want to scream with rage when there is some kind (although I, like everyone, was sceptical about this one) of movement toward negotiation and one party just full-stop doesn't listen.

Ho hum.

This is it. This is the beginning of the real lasting peace between them we've been waiting for. This is the real honest to God olive branch.

Oh, wait. I was watchng Tom and Jerry. What were we talking about? :confused:

Earlier Sunday, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said that Israel must continue to take military measures in order to defend its citizens.

"Security forces will continue to act incessantly against agents of terror in Gaza and the West Bank," Olmert told ministers at the opening of the weekly cabinet meeting.

"The activities will continue so long as they serve our security interests and the defense of Israeli citizens."

In addition, Olmert emphasized that negotiations with Hamas were not on the table.

"In light of what appears to be a lull in Kassam rocket fire, I want to make clear: We are not holding negotiations. We are not committing to changing our method of operations," Olmert said.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1180527992777&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

This is it. This is the beginning of the real lasting peace between them we've been waiting for. This is the real honest to God olive branch.

Oh, wait. I was watchng Tom and Jerry. What were we talking about? :confused:
Hats. Funny hats, I believe :)

Hats. Funny hats, I believe :)

I approve. :)
http://www.sportshollywood.com/images/queenel.jpg

While I too am sceptical of Hamas intentions, I think we should give them space to breath to see... maybe all the internal fighting between Hamas and Fatah has changed something for them.

Agreed. But without much hope.

My prediction of UB's comments: "Israel won't go for it. They aren't interested in peace."Interesting..

What would be your predictions about me?

Israel won't agree, this would mean stopping their 'bomb testing'.

Oh how nice it would be for Israel to agree with the proviso that, over that year, real talks are held between the two sides to try and come to some sort of agreement, at least the talks.

Would it really be that hard?

There'll always be the cynics but, just for once, after so long without, a really nice peace story, especially involving Israel, would really lift world spirits a little.

Everyone seems so despairing, with due cause, about the world and I'd just like to open my morning papers to see the leaders of Israel and Hamas having tea under a quiet olive tree somewhere peaceful.

Oh how my heart wishes it to be so.

*insert cynical reply from the usual suspects here* :(

Oh how nice it would be for Israel to agree with the proviso that, over that year, real talks are held between the two sides to try and come to some sort of agreement, at least the talks.

There'll always be the cynics but, just for once, after so long without, a really nice peace story, especially involving Israel, would really lift world spirits a little.

...I'd just like to open my morning papers to see the leaders of Israel and Hamas having tea under a quiet olive tree somewhere peaceful.
Israel is not going to go for the olive.
wake up and smell the coffee.

Let me guess the Hamas cease-fire: Israel cease and Hamas fire.

two drums and a cymbal fall off a cliff

Considering that Israel's rejected these ceasefires before, I can't help but wonder whether this was just another PR stunt by Hamas to shore up support for themselves there and overses: "Look at us, we want peace but the nasty evil Israelis don't! It's not our fault, we're not to blame for anything!"

Israel is not going to go for the olive.
wake up and smell the coffee.

Boring one-sided opinions like yours sure don't help the matter, wake up and gain some perspective

You know the ceasefire is gonna be broken even if they agree to it.

More and more it's getting to look like the best solution to Mid East Peace is for a third party to completely occupy or level Jerusalem.

So sad. Makes one want to scream with rage when there is some kind (although I, like everyone, was sceptical about this one) of movement toward negotiation and one party just full-stop doesn't listen.

Ho hum.

It's not surprising is it? War keeps war hawks in power. If peace broke out, they'd suddenly have to *gasp* deal with peace. I suspect they suck at it.

Hamas proposes these cease-fires when they get tired of the IDFAF blasting them to hell, and when they need time to regroup.

Then in a few months, Hamas will break it once they have finished regrouping.

Here is a better idea, Israel not buy into it for the twentieth some odd time, and instead keep killing the terrorists.

It's not surprising is it? War keeps war hawks in power. If peace broke out, they'd suddenly have to *gasp* deal with peace. I suspect they suck at it.

True. The most scary thing for me is that I don't see a single figure on either side who I would consider a 'dove' anywhere near power.

The only places where the doves are in control are in NGOs that cross the divides between Israelis-Arabs-Palestinians...and they're about as far away from running the two states as anyone could be.

I repeat: ho hum.

Hamas proposes these cease-fires when they get tired of the IDFAF blasting them to hell, and when they need time to regroup.

Then in a few months, Hamas will break it once they have finished regrouping.

Here is a better idea, Israel not buy into it for the twentieth some odd time, and instead keep killing the terrorists.

When do Israel ever 'buy' into Hamas' claims?

And how are you guaranteeing that bombing the shit out of Gaza and the West Bank is only killing terrorists and not innocents as well?

You wouldn't encourage the extremists within Palestine to continue suicide bombing Israel if you were pro-Palestine would you?

Personally I think the phrase 'keep killing terrorists' when put in relation to the Israel-Palestine conflict is deeply misguided and uninformed...

When do Israel ever 'buy' into Hamas' claims?

And how are you guaranteeing that bombing the shit out of Gaza and the West Bank is only killing terrorists and not innocents as well?

You wouldn't encourage the extremists within Palestine to continue suicide bombing Israel if you were pro-Palestine would you?

Personally I think the phrase 'keep killing terrorists' when put in relation to the Israel-Palestine conflict is deeply misguided and uninformed...

It doesn't help when Israel buys into the 3b1l |\/|05l3\\/| |-|1\/3|\/|1|\|d theory of anti-terrorism and just blasts the fuck out of any Palestinian they feel like. It's as if Operation Wrath of God was still going on today.

It doesn't help when Israel buys into the 3b1l |\/|05l3\\/| |-|1\/3|\/|1|\|d theory of anti-terrorism and just blasts the fuck out of any Palestinian they feel like. It's as if Operation Wrath of God was still going on today.


I think they're far too cynical to do that. Its just handy for justifying all the killing to their American buddies. Ever since "Dances with Wolves" the "They are savages" line has had problems. Now you just throw in "Islamist" to the sentence and its fine again.

Boring one-sided opinions like yours sure don't help the matter, wake up and gain some perspectivegive me an example of: Exactly How are you -Barringtonia- helping the matter.

So... Hamas suddenly doesn't want to destroy Israel? They will tolerate Israel's existence? Right...

Israel is conducting the raids because Hamas won't stop firing rockets into Israel.

Hamas isn't about to stop firing rockets, or stop anyone else from firing rockets into Israel.

Hamas offering a cease fire?

I do believe that's bullshit.

Out of vague interest, if everytime one side offers a cease-fire the other side calls it a lie, how is it ever going to get better?

Out of vague interest, if everytime one side offers a cease-fire the other side calls it a lie, how is it ever going to get better?

Uh, it isn't?

Uh, it isn't?

my conclusion too:(

Out of vague interest, if everytime one side offers a cease-fire the other side calls it a lie, how is it ever going to get better?

Where to you think the term "vicious cycle" came from? ;)

Where to you think the term "vicious cycle" came from? ;)

A carnivorous contraption with wheels and a penchant for torture?:p

Hamas should not be seen as a monolithic evil.

Deals with Hamas can probably be made, compare it to the IRA of ETA for example. If you can try the political road. Violence begins where politics end, and politics begin where violence ends.

Someone on either side or both will sabotage it.

That's an affirmative on the both option.

Israel is conducting the raids because Hamas won't stop firing rockets into Israel.

Hamas isn't about to stop firing rockets, or stop anyone else from firing rockets into Israel.


And why are they firing rockets into Israel?

Lets just let em off the chain and have the middle east go at it without outside intervention..

More and more it's getting to look like the best solution to Mid East Peace is for a third party to completely occupy or level Jerusalem.

I suggest that someone tells Bush that the Israeli are evil people who are searching alternative methods of energy and mean to abolish the entire oil industry. He'll be bombing the whole region back into stone age sooner than you can say "yikes". :p

And why are they firing rockets into Israel?

Do we really have to reiterate the entirety of the vicious cycle all over again?

Do we really have to reiterate the entirety of the vicious cycle all over again?No.. just how it started.

With the artificial creation of Israel in Arablands.

No.. just how it started.

With the artificial creation of Israel in Arablands.

It started long before that....That was merely the culmination of countless other issues, both in the Transjordan area and elsewhere.

Do we really have to reiterate the entirety of the vicious cycle all over again?


I dislike the way RO likes to strip all context from actions. Thus, a reminder of who is occupying who is due now and again.

I dislike the way RO likes to strip all context from actions. Thus, a reminder of who is occupying who is due now and again.

It's a convenient way to ignore those pesky little things called "facts". They have an annoying habit of getting in the way of ignorance.

Any ceasfire would be quickly broken by some "Palestinian" dirtbag.

It's a convenient way to ignore those pesky little things called "facts". They have an annoying habit of getting in the way of ignorance.

Especially when said facts get in the way of letting them or someone else eradicate an entire ethnicity based on said ignorance.

Especially when said facts get in the way of letting them or someone else eradicate an entire ethnicity based on said ignorance.

No one, anywhere, has advocated the extermination of any ethnic group...although it's possible I missed it somewhere.

No one, anywhere, has advocated the extermination of any ethnic group...although it's possible I missed it somewhere.

Don't tell me you never heard of the Deep Kimchi Gang's famous "Let's drop a virus bomb in the Middle East to sterilize the Muslims" post.

:rolleyes:

Don't tell me you never heard of the Deep Kimchi Gang's famous "Let's drop a virus bomb in the Middle East to sterilize the Muslims" post.

:rolleyes:

I thought that was nothing more than myth and legend, cloaked in the shadow and fog of the past...

...so it really happened?

No one, anywhere, has advocated the extermination of any ethnic group...although it's possible I missed it somewhere.

Several times on NSG, actually.

2. This is a new war, the GWOT, and yes, I am advocating genocide. In the end, they will commit more and more heinous acts (including biological weapon attacks on Western cities), and the West will eventually act to put an end to the threat. In my eyes, better sooner than later.

I thought that was nothing more than myth and legend, cloaked in the shadow and fog of the past...

...so it really happened?

So far the actual post is lost in NS history but...

Here's a related sample. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10083108&postcount=36)

And another. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11118916&postcount=250)

And another. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11119240&postcount=363)

And another. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11119262&postcount=375)

And another. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11119232&postcount=359)

And another. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11119152&postcount=326)

So on and so forth.

So far the actual post is lost in NS history but...

Here's a related sample. (http://http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10083108&postcount=36)

And another. (http://http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11118916&postcount=250)

And another. (http://http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11119240&postcount=363)

And another. (http://http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11119262&postcount=375)

And another. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11119232&postcount=359)

And another. (http://http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11119152&postcount=326)

So on and so forth.
The only one of those links that works is the second to last.

The only one of those links that works is the second to last.

Fixed the links.

No one, anywhere, has advocated the extermination of any ethnic group...(unless I am mistaken..)No one, anywhere, from the Bush government has ever suggested Iraq has WMD.. (unless I am mistaken..) :D

Oh great, let them use their pathetic peace time to gain strength so they can destroy Israel the next day. Don't fall into this trap proud Israelis!

Oh great, let them use their pathetic peace time to gain strength so they can destroy Israel the next day. Don't fall into this trap proud Israelis!

Once upon a time, people said the same thing about the IRA; they said the same thing about the ETA. Sure there are fringe lunatics who don't respect the peace but there are nutjobs in every country who don't give two cents worth of a rat ass about cease fires.

If you told the British government in 1975 that by 2007 the IRA and the UDA would have laid down arms and that Sinn Fein and the Ulster Party would work together to bring peace to NI, you'd have been laughed out of the room.

give me an example of: Exactly how are you -Barringtonia- helping the matter.


I must say, I had thought this was an example of a most pointless post, the '...but what do you do?' post.

Yet then I saw that you had not only bolded the question but you had also changed the font colour to blue. That sort of attention to detail surely impresses everyone and thus demands a respectful answer.

So here's what I do, I try to be as dispassionate about these things as I can, I try not to be pro or anti either side, recognizing that these matters go far deeper than I could possibly imagine as I sit behind my comfortable desk.

I realise that being in a position of power, whether elected or not, leads people to deal with hard realities as opposed to soft opinion and that they have to make decisions that, though easy to criticize, are hard to make.

I realise there's a thread of history running through every current political situation, wounds felt and burdens to bear.

And so this is what I do. I try to lend to the debate as opposed to taking a set stance and defending it to the hilt, I try to live by the credo that an attack on my opinions is not an attack on me - I may fail, but I try. I therefore don't need to bold and blue my responses either :)

If that's all I do, it's one step ahead of you.

Israel is not going to go for the olive.
wake up and smell the coffee.Boring one-sided opinions like yours sure don't help the matter.. too boring?

are you suggesting I spice a bit my opinions.. so you find them of your liking?
Are you asking for sexed-up opinions?

first: let me tell you something.. I did not post an "opinion".. I posted a "prediction"
-Israel will not go for the olive-

I dont know what are your personal tastes about not-so-boring opinions.. and I dont care.

Second: here is another prediction for you.. "whatever spices you are looking for.. you are are not going to get it from me." (unless its a coincidence)

You are asking the wrong person.

Boring as in entirely predictable - I should have clarified

Boring as in entirely predictable - I should have clarifiedSo..
if you are so good at predicting things..
What is you prediction on the subject at hand:

Will Israel accept the peace offer?

I believe they've already said they won't.

My point is that one-sided opinions based on who the perceived antagonists are, whether you side with Israel or Palestine, do not help in this matter, a matter far more complex than simple 'they will/they won't' arguments.

No serious person is debating that great wrongs are done on both sides, the majority of people, both Israeli and Palestinian, most likely just want some peace and quiet in their lives and those arguing about who did what and when do not help the matter. In fact, they're very likely the people who are extending the problem.

Regardless of whether Hamas are being genuine or not, I'd like Israel to be the ones who continuously extend the chance that Hamas are being genuine and, as written previously in this thread, given Hamas now have political credence, I'd like to think the situation has changed compared to the past.

I do, however, concede that your post might merely have been to state the prediction, given I read it favorably but then your post history suggests a strong bias against Israel - that is the 'boring' I alluded to.

Oh great, let them use their pathetic peace time to gain strength so they can destroy Israel the next day.


How are they going to manage that? Cruise suicide bombers? a cloaking device? Voodoo?

Every enemy of Israel or the Jewish people must be killed. We need not negotiate with our enemies. We need to kill them.

Every enemy of Israel or the Jewish people must be killed. We need not negotiate with our enemies. We need to kill them.

Define "enemy" because an enemy is more than simply your black and white perception of reality.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

By saying you want to kill the enemies of Israel and the Jews makes you in theory no better than those who wish harm upon Israel and the the Jewish people. You have lowered yourself to their level and you're preaching the same asinine methodology of superiority and dominance that the "enemies" want to exert.

When your enemy wants to negotiate, perhaps there is more than just the need for them to rebuild.

Other terrorist groups in history eventually decided that the way of the warrior was futile and that diplomacy needed a chance. What would have happened if people ignored the offers for peace when the chance was given? Would Northern Ireland have been better off if the government hadn't accept the IRA's offer to negotiate and settle peacefully?

By excluding them from diplomatic channels, you're forcing them to continue to perpetuate the cycle of violence because you're crushing the alternative voice.

Isn't Fatah the alternative voice of the Palestinians, though?

Isn't Fatah the alternative voice of the Palestinians, though?

I'm talking about the use of violence versus the use of diplomacy and since Hamas want to have a ceasefire, I think it's fair to say that they want to use the other voice now.

Why the fuck would Israel agree to a one year cease fire? That's just stupid. Hamas might as well have just said "We need some time to regroup and get our shit straight before we can resume trying to destroy you. Do you mind not fighting us for a while?"

I'm talking about the use of violence versus the use of diplomacy and since Hamas want to have a ceasefire, I think it's fair to say that they want to use the other voice now.

Why the fuck would Israel agree to a one year cease fire? That's just stupid. Hamas might as well have just said "We need some time to regroup and get our shit straight before we can resume trying to destroy you. Do you mind not fighting us for a while?"

Both of these are equally fair to say, IMO. I don't think any of us can claim to be sure of Hamas's motives. Well, it's all redundant now, since Israel has told them to get lost.

Well, yeah, clearly they do want to use diplomacy, but the issue is whether the diplomacy is a tool to perpetuate the violence, I suppose.

Both of these are equally fair to say, IMO. I don't think any of us can claim to be sure of Hamas's motives. Well, it's all redundant now, since Israel has told them to get lost.

Well, yeah, clearly they do want to use diplomacy, but the issue is whether the diplomacy is a tool to perpetuate the violence, I suppose.

A one year ceasefire.

Anything can happen in a year.

A one year ceasefire.

Anything can happen in a year.

Would never last that long. Either side - my guess is both sides - would have violated it beyond repair within a month.

Would never last that long. Either side - my guess is both sides - would have violated it beyond repair within a month.

Quite the cynic, ain't ya?

Quite the cynic, ain't ya?

Considering that tends to happen, I say it is learning from history.

Quite the cynic, ain't ya?

:( Yeah, it makes me sad. I was so hopeful just a few years ago, but I've changed...

*Cries*