NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.suntimes.com/news/greeley/410312,CST-EDT-GREEL01.article

Hatred of immigrants is sinful

June 1, 2007
BY ANDREW GREELEY

Bigotry never goes away. When it becomes unfashionable, it goes underground and waits until a new hate group appears into which it can project its twisted sickness. Racism, anti-Semitism, anti-Catholicism and anti-immigrant nativism are chronic infections in the American body politic. Rush Limbaugh singing the obscene tune ''Barack the Magic Negro'' is inviting prejudice and violence. However, for pure irrational rage, the current crop of nativists are some of the worst to come along since the Ku Klux Klan of the 1920s or those God-fearing Protestants who burned convents in Boston in the 19th century.

....

Another hate mail affirms the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness belong only to American citizens. To exclude some men and women from those basic rights is to deny their fundamental humanity, which is how Hitler started against Jews and Gypsies and the handicapped. Am I saying that hatred for immigrants is a Nazi attitude? You bet!

Andrew Greeley is an author of over 150 books, is a Sociologist, and a Catholic priest.

"Throughout his priesthood, Father Greeley has unflinchingly urged his beloved Church to become more responsive to evolving concerns of Catholics everywhere."
http://www.agreeley.com/author.html

Sometimes after playing in mud, I find little clumps of dirt in the oddest crevices even after a thorough shower. *nod*

Sometimes after playing in mud, I find little clumps of dirt in the oddest crevices even after a thorough shower. *nod*

What the...crap?

Andrew Greeley is an author of over 150 books, is a Sociologist, and a Catholic priest.

Okay, anyone who has wrote over 150 books probably is very good at rephrasing the same idea many times, writes very short books, or sucks and doesn't spend much time on his books.

I dont know if I like Andew Greeley, but i like that letter.

well according to catholic dogma hatred is a sin, full stop. of course that didn't in any way inhibit the Inquisition.

so sure his stance is admirable and worthy of mention but it isn't anything new or anything his particular group has a higher moral ground on... so i'm kind of missing the point of this thread:confused:

The point isnt about religion.

Its that all bigotry is the same bigotry. It might have a different brand name, but they are all the same so if you are against one...you must be against them all.

And, vice versa.

well according to catholic dogma hatred is a sin, full stop. of course that didn't in any way inhibit the Inquisition.

so sure his stance is admirable and worthy of mention but it isn't anything new or anything his particular group has a higher moral ground on... so i'm kind of missing the point of this thread:confused:

I like to think that the Catholic Church has come a far way from the 15 century.

I like to think that the Catholic Church has come a far way from the 15 century.

Yeah. For one thing, their tendrils are longer.

well according to catholic dogma hatred is a sin, full stop. of course that didn't in any way inhibit the Inquisition.


Father Greeley has called the Spanish attempt to crush Islam and Judaism a violation of human dignity. You will find that Andrew Greeley is not liked by conservative Catholics...

Yeah. For one thing, their tendrils are longer.

*dies*

*dies*

Hope you've been baptized. The pope just eliminated where you would go otherwise. I was rather surprised that the pope has the ability to eliminate cosmic realms, and rather hope he never gets tired of Earth.

Hatred of immigrants may be a sin but a dislike of illegal immigrants is a right. :eek:

Yeah. For one thing, their tendrils are longer.....and messages from HQ get relayed quicker....

Hatred of immigrants may be a sin but a dislike of illegal immigrants is a right. :eek:

"Illegal" Immigrants have a right to feed their families. This is the type of bigotry the article talks about.

It happens repetedly though history:
Witchs (Salem witch trials)
Ku Klux Klan
Chinese Immigrents
Nazis
Japanese during WW2 on U.S. soil
Native Americans
Mexicans
Black slaves
women civil rights
The list goes on...

Hatred of immigrants may be a sin but a dislike of illegal immigrants is a right. :eek:

That letter isnt for people like you it is about people like you.

So do ordinary citizens, who shouldn't be bankrupted by having to pay taxes to support illegal immigrants who DON'T pay taxes.

So now we put a price on human life? Disgusting.

Edit: Timewarp!

"Illegal" Immigrants have a right to feed their families.

So do ordinary citizens, who shouldn't be bankrupted by having to pay taxes to support illegal immigrants who DON'T pay taxes.

Also, can you please show me an example of one American citizen who went bankrupt because of immigrants? Thank you. Also, some immigrants do pay into Social Security, through their place of employment, and never see that again.

So do ordinary citizens, who shouldn't be bankrupted by having to pay taxes to support illegal immigrants who DON'T pay taxes.

Source.

If you want to come to this country, do it legally. I have no problem with legal immigrants coming here for a better life. I have a problem with people illegaly coming to this country and then bitching when we ship them back to the hellhole they crawled out of. The US needs to do what Australia does, and lock them up in concetration camps for a few years. Further, what's with them coming here and refusing to integrate? If you wanna be Mexican, more power to you, but do it in Mexico and not in my country. You come here, you do it legally and you learn the language. Jesus, and American's get called arrogant for not getting all the little nuances of the cultures we visit? At least we are there legally and some of us try to use a little of your language rather than assuming you should speak ours.

If you want to come to this country, do it legally. I have no problem with legal immigrants coming here for a better life. I have a problem with people illegaly coming to this country and then bitching when we ship them back to the hellhole they crawled out of. The US needs to do what Australia does, and lock them up in concetration camps for a few years. Further, what's with them coming here and refusing to integrate? If you wanna be Mexican, more power to you, but do it in Mexico and not in my country. You come here, you do it legally and you learn the language. Jesus, and American's get called arrogant for not getting all the little nuances of the cultures we visit? At least we are there legally and some of us try to use a little of your language rather than assuming you should speak ours.

1- Hellhole. Exactly. It is our duty to free them from bondage.

2- Concentration camps? What ever happened to give me Your tired, your poor...

3- I assume you also have a problem with the Sons of Italy and the various irish American societies?

4- Spanish was a language on the American continent before English was.

Sometimes after playing in mud, I find little clumps of dirt in the oddest crevices even after a thorough shower. *nod*

*gasp* me too...:eek:

1- Hellhole. Exactly. It is our duty to free them from bondage.
no it isn't.

2- Concentration camps? What ever happened to give me Your tired, your poor...
still applies.

3- I assume you also have a problem with the Sons of Italy and the various irish American societies?
do they learn English? do they pay taxes? are they here legally?

4- Spanish was a language on the American continent before English was.
and Cherokee before that.....

no it isn't.


still applies.


do they learn English? do they pay taxes? are they here legally?


and Cherokee before that.....

1: If you were starving, and your family was starving, and you had the chance at a better life, would you take that chance?

2: How does it apply if we would throw them in a concentration camp?

3: The point is that they keep their ethnic culture. The poster said Mexicans should assimilate, implying that they can not keep their culture. I was wondering if he would apply the same thoguhts to Irish and Italian Americans.

4: Yes, Cherokee was here before that. If you want to speak Cherokee, be my guest.

1- Hellhole. Exactly. It is our duty to free them from bondage.

but that would mean work...and I don't like work...


2- Concentration camps? What ever happened to give me Your tired, your poor...

Well thats just it...they're poor...and we're tired


3- I assume you also have a problem with the Sons of Italy and the various irish American societies?

Why do you hate Americans?


4- Spanish was a language on the American continent before English was.

well...um...ugh...look over there!
*runs away*

:p

If you want to come to this country, do it legally. I have no problem with legal immigrants coming here for a better life. I have a problem with people illegaly coming to this country and then bitching when we ship them back to the hellhole they crawled out of. The US needs to do what Australia does, and lock them up in concetration camps for a few years. Further, what's with them coming here and refusing to integrate? If you wanna be Mexican, more power to you, but do it in Mexico and not in my country. You come here, you do it legally and you learn the language. Jesus, and American's get called arrogant for not getting all the little nuances of the cultures we visit? At least we are there legally and some of us try to use a little of your language rather than assuming you should speak ours.

Oh, it's a good thing that people who are vehemently against illegal immigration are never bigots and that's just in my imagination.

a sin well not in my book

a sin well not in my book

So hatred of a whole group of humans is ok?

Hope you've been baptized. The pope just eliminated where you would go otherwise. I was rather surprised that the pope has the ability to eliminate cosmic realms, and rather hope he never gets tired of Earth.

That was actually the Second Vatican Council but whatever...

If it makes you feel any better, I really could care less what the current Pope thinks.

I may not have totally agreed with all of John Paul II's viewpoints, but he's good in my book... Benedict on the other hand still thinks that "rock and roll" is a tool of Satan.

What the...crap?

It's a metaphor. *wise nod*

So hatred of a whole group of humans is ok?

i hate us all togther as we can be real jackass to one another

1: If you were starving, and your family was starving, and you had the chance at a better life, would you take that chance?
doing it everyday, legally.

2: How does it apply if we would throw them in a concentration camp?
I don't wanna, I wanna change the laws.

3: The point is that they keep their ethnic culture. The poster said Mexicans should assimilate, implying that they can not keep their culture. I was wondering if he would apply the same thoguhts to Irish and Italian Americans.
the point is that they can't function as well in American society if they don't at least learn English (which I know is a hard language, I used to teach ESL)

being poor is one thing, staying poor to "protect your culture" is quite another.

4: Yes, Cherokee was here before that. If you want to speak Cherokee, be my guest.
and not be able to function in my own society? no thanks. I learned some.....it was neat.

doing it everyday, legally.


I don't wanna, I wanna change the laws.


the point is that they can't function as well in American society if they don't at least learn English (which I know is a hard language, I used to teach ESL)

being poor is one thing, staying poor to "protect your culture" is quite another.


and not be able to function in my own society? no thanks. I learned some.....it was neat.

You have the oppurtunity to do it "legally". They do not have that chance. Also, it is a good idea to learn English yes, but it should not be forced.

Hatred of immigrants may be a sin but a dislike of illegal immigrants is a right. :eek:

Tell me something--how can you tell if an immigrant is legal or illegal or is even an immigrant in the first place? Without demanding identification, I mean.

Tell me something--how can you tell if an immigrant is legal or illegal or is even an immigrant in the first place? Without demanding identification, I mean.

It involves a mystical extra sense similar to Gaydar. In fact I think they sell an upgrade kit now. *nod*

Tell me something--how can you tell if an immigrant is legal or illegal or is even an immigrant in the first place? Without demanding identification, I mean.

Easy. Legal immigrants have white skin, illegal ones are brown. Simple colour coding. :p

Easy. Legal immigrants have white skin, illegal ones are brown. Simple colour coding. :pcongrats.
You just passed the INS Border Patrol hiring interview :D

3: The point is that they keep their ethnic culture. The poster said Mexicans should assimilate, implying that they can not keep their culture. I was wondering if he would apply the same thoguhts to Irish and Italian Americans.

Just one point to make. Mexican immigrants (illegal or otherwise) assimilate at the same rate as any other immigrant group, often faster because they have more of a support network here. Assimilation generally works this way--first generation rarely fully assimilates and may never get more than a basic knowledge of a new language. 2nd generation falls equally into both cultures depending on socio-economic status. The more money, generally, the more assimilated. Third generation is almost always fully assimilated, complete with a loss of the native language.

The reason the whole "mexicans don't assimilate" meme sticks is because the current wave of Mexican immigration started about 200 years ago and has never stopped. There's always a new first generation group coming here, and nativists either don't realize it or don't care.

Hatred of immigrants may be a sin but a dislike of illegal immigrants is a right. :eek:


At least these people aren't coming in a forceful manner, which is taking your land and spreading the small pox :rolleyes: Immigrants built America from ground up, and lazy Americans just blame the hard-working immigrants for not having jobs. Believe me, if all the immigrants (both illegal and legal ones) were kicked out of America, those lazy Americans would still complain about not having jobs. Kick them lazy whining Americans to where the hard working immigrants come from and maybe they would learn some work ethic lessons.

Hatred of immigrants may be a sin but a dislike of illegal immigrants is a right. :eek:

People who say that they 'dislike' illegal immigrants confuse me. It's like saying I 'dislike' shoplifters because they break the law. Of course we dont like people breaking the law, the question is whether we can make them legal.

Oh, it's a good thing that people who are vehemently against illegal immigration are never bigots and that's just in my imagination.

Yes, because we should allow criminals to go free simply because they are from another nation rather than throwing them in the same concentration camps we throw the rest of our societal scum. Further, if I go to Iraq and start droning on about how America is better, and how Iraqi's should respect the Americans in Iraq and allow us to follow our American culture in Iraq, you wouldn't have a problem with that, right? Why do we treat people here illegally with kid gloves?

It's not hatred, it's simple legality. Now if I suggested hunting down those Mexican immigrants who were here legally, I'd be a bigot. I have no problem with immigrants who are here legally, I worked with a lot of them through the ETSU sociology department, and they were good, heart working, honest people. What I have a problem with are those who come here illegally for a hope at a better life, and while I feel for them, we have the rights and freedoms they seek because we are a legal society. You are attempting to blur the issue with a strawman argument.

Besides, the more illegal immigrants we have, the less legal immigrants we can allow through (INS agents are spending time rounding up illegals rather than processing legal immigrants, after all) and if anything is wrong, it's taking someone else's place in this country because you were too greedy to wait your turn like everyone else.

Personally, I support an American Foreign Legion. If you want to become an American citizen, you serve five years in the military where you get job training and learn our customs and ways, and then you are given citizenship for you and your immediate family. Two birds, one stone.

Benedict on the other hand still thinks that "rock and roll" is a tool of Satan.

I liked when he told people in some poor South American nations to "resist the sins of wealth and power" or something like that.

Yeah...No offense to Catholics, but the Vatican really isn't in a position to speak out against wealth and power...

What does that have to do with the topic of this thread? If you want to discuss that, please start a new thread. Thank you.

At least these people aren't coming in a forceful manner, which is taking your land and spreading the small pox :rolleyes: Immigrants built America from ground up...Colbert said Colorado Squirrels carrying leprosy must be Mexican (Parody of CNN's LouDobbs anti-Mexican paranoia)

I liked when he told people in some poor South American nations to "resist the sins of wealth and power" or something like that.

Yeah...No offense to Catholics, but the Vatican really isn't in a position to speak out against wealth and power...

Preaching to the choir, comrade.

I don't look to the Pope as God's vessel on Earth. I don't believe that confession through a priest is the only option. I don't think suicide equals immediate damnation.

Some would call me a "supermarket Catholic" as a result. I know I'm not the only one.

...Oh, and I happen to think that sex is a good thing. :p

while it is a sin to hate illegal immigrants (whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, eh?) its not necessarily hateful to want better immigration laws and controls.

its wrong to assume that anyone who wants strict immigration control wants it because they hate brown people.

...Oh, and I happen to think that sex is a good thing. :p

You're going to hell.

:p

http://www.suntimes.com/news/greeley/410312,CST-EDT-GREEL01.article

Hatred of immigrants is sinful

June 1, 2007
BY ANDREW GREELEY

Bigotry never goes away. When it becomes unfashionable, it goes underground and waits until a new hate group appears into which it can project its twisted sickness. Racism, anti-Semitism, anti-Catholicism and anti-immigrant nativism are chronic infections in the American body politic. Rush Limbaugh singing the obscene tune ''Barack the Magic Negro'' is inviting prejudice and violence. However, for pure irrational rage, the current crop of nativists are some of the worst to come along since the Ku Klux Klan of the 1920s or those God-fearing Protestants who burned convents in Boston in the 19th century.

....

Another hate mail affirms the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness belong only to American citizens. To exclude some men and women from those basic rights is to deny their fundamental humanity, which is how Hitler started against Jews and Gypsies and the handicapped. Am I saying that hatred for immigrants is a Nazi attitude? You bet!

Andrew Greeley is an author of over 150 books, is a Sociologist, and a Catholic priest.

"Throughout his priesthood, Father Greeley has unflinchingly urged his beloved Church to become more responsive to evolving concerns of Catholics everywhere."
http://www.agreeley.com/author.html

That's gonna blow up the right.

while it is a sin to hate illegal immigrants (whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, eh?) its not necessarily hateful to want better immigration laws and controls.

its wrong to assume that anyone who wants strict immigration control wants it because they hate brown people.

I agree completely--that is a false assumption. But it's always the Mexicans who get singled out for special treatment by the media and the people who are screaming the loudest, so there's a natural connection between the bigots and the immigration debate. And it's nothing new either.

The problem in this debate is that no one wants to actually look at what would seriously help solve the problem--massive, company-killing penalties on companies which knowingly hire undocumented workers, and resources to better track people here on work visas. It's estimated that 40% of the people here illegally came here on work visas and never left--and we don't know who or where they are. Why? Because big business wants it that way--they get an exploitable work force and higher profits, and no one ever points the finger at them as being the cause of it all.

Father Greeley has called the Spanish attempt to crush Islam and Judaism a violation of human dignity. You will find that Andrew Greeley is not liked by conservative Catholics...

See, now this is hardly fair! How are we supposed to make sweeping generalisations about Catholics, and maintain certain unfounded beliefs about them if they go around believing different things? Do you seriously expect me to consider that each Catholic I meet might not think exactly the same as the last Catholic? I...that's just...I mean...come on now!

the point is that they can't function as well in American society if they don't at least learn English (which I know is a hard language, I used to teach ESL)

When my family and I lived in Spain for three years we could not have functioned well either if all of us didn't learn Spanish. :eek: The difference is we wanted to learn Spanish and experience the Spanish culture. Illegal immigrants don't give a damn about experiencing the American culture. :(

You have the oppurtunity to do it "legally". They do not have that chance. Also, it is a good idea to learn English yes, but it should not be forced.

No they shouldn't be "forced." However, if they like renting an apartment, buying food, having utilities, having a drivers license, getting medical care, etc. it might not be a bad idea to learn the local language. :rolleyes:

The reason the whole "mexicans don't assimilate" meme sticks is because the current wave of Mexican immigration started about 200 years ago and has never stopped.

The reason is of all the immigrants who have come to this country legally or illegally, this group is the only one who is expecting treatment others never had. They expect to take a driver’s license in their native tongue, they expect to have an interpreter available when they seek medical treatment, and they expect bi-lingual packaging on products they purchase.

Other immigrants to this country whose native language was not English found people to interpret for them until they learned enough of the language to function. Just as my family did when we lived in Spain. We found an interpreter (thanks Bob, Gloria, and kids) until we learned enough of the language to function on our own.

That is why the "they don't assimilate sticks."

The problem in this debate is that no one wants to actually look at what would seriously help solve the problem--massive, company-killing penalties on companies which knowingly hire undocumented workers, and resources to better track people here on work visas. It's estimated that 40% of the people here illegally came here on work visas and never left--and we don't know who or where they are. Why? Because big business wants it that way--they get an exploitable work force and higher profits, and no one ever points the finger at them as being the cause of it all.

You forgot school visas and visitors visas. I agree with you on the "massive company-killing penalties on companies...and resources to better track people here on...visas." Now, if we could just get our Congressmen and Senators to do that and secure the borders we might be on the right track.

The reason is of all the immigrants who have come to this country legally or illegally, this group is the only one who is expecting treatment others never had. They expect to take a driver’s license in their native tongue, they expect to have an interpreter available when they seek medical treatment, and they expect bi-lingual packaging on products they purchase.

Other immigrants to this country whose native language was not English found people to interpret for them until they learned enough of the language to function. Just as my family did when we lived in Spain. We found an interpreter (thanks Bob, Gloria, and kids) until we learned enough of the language to function on our own.

That is why the "they don't assimilate sticks."

the law of the united states of america requires certain offical documents be available in the language of ANY group of non english speakers over a certain number. it has nothing to do with spanish and everything to do with understanding that there are CITIZENS in this country who do not have an excellent command of english.

for example, in socorro county new mexico we are required to print ballots in navajo because many of the residents of the alamo navajo reservation arent 100% literate in english.

products are up to the businesses involved. if they feel they will make more sales with spanish on the label, they put spanish on the label, if they dont (or dont care) they dont.

The reason is of all the immigrants who have come to this country legally or illegally, this group is the only one who is expecting treatment others never had. They expect to take a driver’s license in their native tongue, they expect to have an interpreter available when they seek medical treatment, and they expect bi-lingual packaging on products they purchase.

Other immigrants to this country whose native language was not English found people to interpret for them until they learned enough of the language to function. Just as my family did when we lived in Spain. We found an interpreter (thanks Bob, Gloria, and kids) until we learned enough of the language to function on our own.

That is why the "they don't assimilate sticks."

What about Mexican-Americans whose families have been here well over 100 years, since the Mexican-American War? Are you going to say they did not asssimilate? I assume you also have a problem with other groups keeping their culture? The fact is, America is meant to be a place where all people can come, and we can share our different cultures.

What about Mexican-Americans whose families have been here well over 100 years, since the Mexican-American War? Are you going to say they did not asssimilate? I assume you also have a problem with other groups keeping their culture? The fact is, America is meant to be a place where all people can come, and we can share our different cultures.

Yes, and that's the problem. Why can't you guys be more like the Chinese, who's only obvious remnant of their culture is Chinese food. You guys, with your strong cultural identity, are the biggest threat to America's unity since slavery. In fact, you guys are worse then the south.


I'm kidding, calm down.

See, now this is hardly fair! How are we supposed to make sweeping generalisations about Catholics, and maintain certain unfounded beliefs about them if they go around believing different things? Do you seriously expect me to consider that each Catholic I meet might not think exactly the same as the last Catholic? I...that's just...I mean...come on now!

Every time I start thinking about the Catholic church as some huge, monolithic thing where no one thinks for themselves, I remember Father Greeley. And Father Hall, parish priest at St josephs who told a lady who was very upset about that the Jews would do when Christ comes, "Well, it'll be the first time for them and the second time for us, won't it?" (I loved Father Hall)

Parody of CNN's LouDobbs anti-Mexican paranoia

Lou Dobbs is not paranoid against Mexicans, he just doesn't like people flooding into our country illegally, but apparently spreading lies and casting everyone who doesn't welcome illegal aliens with open arms as a racist is the only way their supporters can win an argument. :rolleyes:

It involves a mystical extra sense similar to Gaydar. In fact I think they sell an upgrade kit now. *nod*

Oh, that's what the new plug-in package is. Thanks for the info, I'll be sure to install the Mexadar, and go crusading for the defence of America and it's Culture from the filthy mexicans stealing our jobs!

Lou Dobbs is not paranoid against Mexicans, he just doesn't like people flooding into our country illegally, but apparently spreading lies and casting everyone who doesn't welcome illegal aliens with open arms as a racist is the only way their supporters can win an argument. :rolleyes:

Legality is relative. If they are gonig to die, then it is their RIGHT as a human being to come across our border to SAVE themselves and their families. EVERY human has the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of hapiness.

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

filthy mexicans

Apparently, it is acceptable to make jokes about some groups of people, but not others. This is an example of how some bigotry is still acceptable in this country, and it is sickening.

Cherry Ridge says that hating immagrants is a sin. I think that hating them is wrong but not a sin. I am morally obligated not to hate immagrants and not to be racist. I think like this not because of God saying it is sin but because I am nice guy who doesn't support hate towards anyone. You should also note that I am not a Christian.

Apparently, it is acceptable to make jokes about some groups of people, but not others. This is an example of how some bigotry is still acceptable in this country, and it is sickening.
lawl
Oh course it is! We must fight the dirty Mexicans swarming across our borders, taking our jobs and eating up all of our precious food!

lawl
Oh course it is! We must fight the dirty Mexicans swarming across our borders, taking our jobs and eating up all of our precious food!

I believe this proves my point.

I believe this proves my point.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l91/empyreanimperator/CertCR.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l91/empyreanimperator/CertCR.jpg

Ah, but my friend! I believe it is YOU who should be getting that certificate!

Ah, but my friend! I believe it is YOU who should be getting that certificate!

Oh, please, we were discussing this whole thing over MSN. :p

Oh, please, we were discussing this whole thing over MSN. :p

Perhaps we were.

Now back on topic...

Perhaps we were.

Now back on topic...

Right, about all those mexicans steeln' er jerbs

Right, about all those mexicans steeln' er jerbs

I had six jobs once, but then someone broke into my home one day and stole every last one. I think they got sold on the black market. And I know it was a mexican because he left the smell of jalapeno pepper behind.

"Illegal" Immigrants have a right to feed their families. This is the type of bigotry the article talks about.

Ummm.... no, they don't. They are illegal, they do not belong in whatever country they are. They did not make the proper applications to the US government (or whatever government), and from my limited knowledge, it's not really that hard to get a green card.

Do I HATE illegal immigrants? No. Do I not want them in my country? Yes.

Lou Dobbs is not paranoid against Mexicans, he just doesn't like people flooding into our country illegally

yes, that explains why he keeps citing well-known hate groups in his "omfg! mexichens!!!!" reports...

They are illegal, they do not belong in whatever country they are.

and any such law would have the same force?

Ummm.... no, they don't.

Everyone. Has. A. Right. To. Live.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident."

Universal human rights. That you can even think that any human doesn't have the right to feed their family just proves what a bigot you are. Or maybe you don't think "illegals" are humans?

They did not make the proper applications to the US government (or whatever government), and from my limited knowledge, it's not really that hard to get a green card.

You clearly need more knowledge. And less assumptions. I for example would not be able to afford to immigrate to the US at this time. And I'm a US citizen. The average Mexican laborer makes what, 2 dollars a day? And you expect him to pay "proper application" fees ranging in the thousands of dollars? And wait years, even decades (!)?

Do I HATE illegal immigrants? No. Do I not want them in my country? Yes.

You don't hate them, you just expect them to fucking starve to death.

Yeah.

anti-Catholicism

Oh, cry me a fucking river, why don'tcha.

Oh, cry me a fucking river, why don'tcha.

So some bigotry is ok? This is referring to past incidents of anti-Catholicism, whent he Irish, for example, first came over, and how bigotry never dies, just takes a new form. Also, an example of the crude language bigots need to fall back on.

You don't hate them, you just expect them to fucking starve to death.

And it is our job to feed the world? Yes, every hungry person in the world, come to America, we have no starving AMERICAN CITIZENS of our own, we have limitless resources with which to feed the entire world. :rolleyes:

And it is our job to feed the world?

Irrelevant, strawman.

Yes, every hungry person in the world, come to America,

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"


But maybe you'd like to re-write the Statue of Liberty.


we have no starving AMERICAN CITIZENS of our own

Not really. But so what if it was? Do you think AMERICAN CITIZENS are so important that they not only need to be capitalized in discussion, but are worth more than noncitizens? Are you that bigoted?

we have limitless resources with which to feed the entire world. :rolleyes:

Irrelevant, strawman.

So some bigotry is ok?

Oh, cry me a fucking river, you too. Those poor Catholics, boohoo.

Oh, cry me a fucking river, you too. Those poor Catholics, boohoo.

Well historically, Catholics in America were persecuted. Convents were burnt down by the protestant bigots. Why vile language to make a point, by the way? If you deny Catholics were historically persecuted in America, then you need to take a look at history.

Well historically, Catholics in America were persecuted. Convents were burnt down by the protestant bigots. Why vile language to make a point, by the way? If you deny Catholics were historically persecuted in America, then you need to take a look at history.

Fass pretty much hates all religions. And Americans. And pretty much anyone. He's got euro-emo syndrome.

Well historically, Catholics in America were persecuted.

You don't know what persecution is, if you call that banality persecution. Ironic, though, seeing as Catholics were so good at persecution themselves.

You don't know what persecution is, if you call that banality persecution. Ironic, though, seeing as Catholics were so good at persecution themselves.

There is no excuse for any persecution. You obviously do not know American history, however, so I will stop responding.

Fass pretty much hates all religions. And Americans. And pretty much anyone. He's got euro-emo syndrome.

He's the gay Dr. Cox of NSG.

There is no excuse for any persecution.

Now, if only the Vatican could see it that way.

You obviously do not know American history, however, so I will stop responding.

You obviously don't know world history if you would elevate this to persecution.

Lou Dobbs is not paranoid against Mexicans, he just doesn't like people flooding into our country illegally, but apparently spreading lies and casting everyone who doesn't welcome illegal aliens with open arms as a racist is the only way their supporters can win an argument. Lou Dobbs is a racist pig.

I am not looking to win an argument.. I am just making an statement..
for my pleasure I am going to say it again:

Lou Dobbs is a racist Pig.

You dont like it when I "cast" him?
sue me.

Fass pretty much hates all religions. And Americans. And pretty much anyone. He's got euro-emo syndrome.

lawl. You win a quote.

Greater Trotsia...if you don't think there are any people starving in America, maybe you should learn a little more.

And do I think taking care of our citizens should take priority over taking care of people who sneak into our country illegally and should not even be here in the first place? Yes, I do!

Greater Trotsia...if you don't think there are any people starving in America, maybe you should learn a little more.

Hmmm, why don't you just give me some statistics for how many people die from starvation in the US per year.

And do I think taking care of our citizens should take priority over taking care of people who sneak into our country illegally and should not even be here in the first place? Yes, I do!

That's because you think an American has more human rights than non. That's OK, lots of nationalist bigots think the same way as you do.

Hmmm, why don't you just give me some statistics for how many people die from starvation in the US per year.

I don't have to provide statistics for obvious facts. If you think everyone in America is financially comfortable with three kids, a dog, two cars in the garage, and a white picket fence, you either don't live here, know nothing about it if you do, or turn a blind eye to things that don't help your arguments. There are people who live on the streets and sleep in the park right down the road from where I live, last winter some of them were found frozen to death because they had no shelter, so don't tell me every American's life is all baseball and apple pie.

That's because you think an American has more human rights than non. That's OK, lots of nationalist bigots think the same way as you do.

I think a legal citizen of the United States, within the United States, has more rights than an illegal alien hiding illegally within the United States. That hardly makes me a "nationalist bigot", it makes me a person with common sense and a basic regard for and understanding of the law.

Lou Dobbs is not paranoid against Mexicans, he just doesn't like people flooding into our country illegally, but apparently spreading lies and casting everyone who doesn't welcome illegal aliens with open arms as a racist is the only way their supporters can win an argument. :rolleyes:

Sorry, but you're wrong. Lou Dobbs is very much paranoid against Mexicans, as the kerfuffle over leprosy recently showed. He's gotten his talking points from avowed racists in the past, and he's made the utterly ludicrous Aztlan argument more than once. He disguises his anti-Mexicanism by giving lip service to the whole "let's close the border to everyone" routine (and yes I know his wife is Mexican-American) but he doesn't hide it that well.

I don't have to provide statistics for obvious facts.

It's so "obvious," you certainly will have no problem helping me to "learn a little more."

If you think everyone in America is financially comfortable with three kids, a dog, two cars in the garage, and a white picket fence, you either don't live here, know nothing about it if you do, or turn a blind eye to things that don't help your arguments.

This is a strawman. The subject in question is not whether America has a lot of people with three kids, a dog, two cars, and a white picket fence. It's about the amount of Americans who literally die because they have no food to eat.

There are people who live on the streets and sleep in the park right down the road from where I live, last winter some of them were found frozen to death because they had no shelter, so don't tell me every American's life is all baseball and apple pie.

Baseball and apple pie would be another strawman. Shelter is not food.


I think a legal citizen of the United States, within the United States, has more rights than an illegal alien hiding illegally within the United States. That hardly makes me a "nationalist bigot", it makes me a person with common sense and a basic regard for and understanding of the law.

And yet people like you, in this very thread, assert that they have no right to feed their family. No right to life. Do you honestly believe the law supports the death of any non-American simply because they are not a citizen? So like, I could go to a foreign country and kill someone, and it would be morally and legally just since hey, that person has no right to live?

It seems you do, since the majority of your argument hinges upon repeating "illegal" and "illegally" as much as possible - as if breaking the law means you should just fucking die.

And yet people like you, in this very thread, assert that they have no right to feed their family. No right to life. Do you honestly believe the law supports the death of any non-American simply because they are not a citizen? So like, I could go to a foreign country and kill someone, and it would be morally and legally just since hey, that person has no right to live?

Well, I didn't say any of this, did I? The only thing I said was illegal aliens do not have the right to live here illegally, I said nothing about them having the right to live, or an American having the right to go to their country and murder them. Nice lies though, keep up the good work. Your post brought an amused smile to my face, if nothing else.

It seems you do, since the majority of your argument hinges upon repeating "illegal" and "illegally" as much as possible - as if breaking the law means you should just fucking die.

I didn't say illegal aliens should "just fucking die", or be murdered, either here or in their own countries, now did I? All I said was, illegal aliens do not have the right to live here illegally, now is that so hard to understand?

I'm a lower middle class US taxpayer.

It's hard to hate immigrants when all they are trying to do is escape a hellish life and try to improve their situation.

I can sympathize with illegal immigrants especially because they are the ones who are the poorest of the poor and couldn't afford the VERY EXPENSIVE process of becomming a legal immigrant.

Sure there may be a security risk with this whole terrorism phenom, but honestly my underpants are still dry and I don't even look over my shoulder every few seconds to see if a brown person is plotting against me.

I am also not worried about the taxes I pay that they are possibly using for medical care. I could handle an increase in taxes if it means more help for more people.

I think I will just go on being happy and accepting immigrants into my country without getting an ulcer about it.

Well, I didn't say any of this, did I? The only thing I said was illegal aliens do not have the right to live here illegally, I said nothing about them having the right to live, or an American having the right to go to their country and murder them. Nice lies though, keep up the good work. Your post brought an amused smile to my face, if nothing else.

If they are desperate enough to want to become immigrants in the US, that they must do so illegally, then it is likely they face starvation and oppression back home. This is backed up by the fact that starvation, poverty and oppression are rampant in many of the countries illegal immigrants are from. Sending them back amounts to the same thing as killing them.

I didn't say illegal aliens should "just fucking die", or be murdered, either here or in their own countries, now did I? All I said was, illegal aliens do not have the right to live here illegally, now is that so hard to understand?

I think human rights trump border control rights. You don't. Just why is paying a few thousand dollars to the Dept of Homeland Security so important that it's more important than the right to life?

I didn't say illegal aliens should "just fucking die", or be murdered, either here or in their own countries, now did I? All I said was, illegal aliens do not have the right to live here illegally, now is that so hard to understand?

Well, they will die in their own countries if they do not come here. Why? Because they can not afford to live, literally. They also can not afford the paperwork to come here "legally."

"Illegal" Immigrants have a right to feed their families. This is the type of bigotry the article talks about.

They do? Darn. There goes the plan guys.:sniper:

I'm a lower middle class US taxpayer.

It's hard to hate immigrants when all they are trying to do is escape a hellish life and try to improve their situation.

I can sympathize with illegal immigrants especially because they are the ones who are the poorest of the poor and couldn't afford the VERY EXPENSIVE process of becomming a legal immigrant.

Sure there may be a security risk with this whole terrorism phenom, but honestly my underpants are still dry and I don't even look over my shoulder every few seconds to see if a brown person is plotting against me.

I am also not worried about the taxes I pay that they are possibly using for medical care. I could handle an increase in taxes if it means more help for more people.

I think I will just go on being happy and accepting immigrants into my country without getting an ulcer about it.

Hear hear.

I'm a lower middle class US taxpayer.

It's hard to hate immigrants when all they are trying to do is escape a hellish life and try to improve their situation.

I can sympathize with illegal immigrants especially because they are the ones who are the poorest of the poor and couldn't afford the VERY EXPENSIVE process of becomming a legal immigrant.

So we accept that the rule of law is okay for some, but only advisory for others. Who gets to make that decision? These folks break the law on many fronts.

Let's work on a better way to allow legal entry to the country, not how to legitimize illegal activity.


...
I am also not worried about the taxes I pay that they are possibly using for medical care. I could handle an increase in taxes if it means more help for more people.

I think I will just go on being happy and accepting immigrants into my country without getting an ulcer about it.
Clearly, you are not affected by taxes enough to make a sound decision. Are you really paying or are you getting that awful EIC? Try a year of paying the AMT and see what you have to say about additional taxes for residents that shouldn't even be here.

So we accept that the rule of law is okay for some, but only advisory for others. Who gets to make that decision? These folks break the law on many fronts.

Let's work on a better way to allow legal entry to the country, not how to legitimize illegal activity.

I can see that, and streamlining the process of legal entry into the US would certainly lower the amount of illegal immigration into the country, but at the same time that would mainly only work for people entering the country illegally.

Then you would have to solve the problem of people coming into this country legally and overstaying their visas.

Which, in my opinion, is a much harder, and more important thing to fix as far as immigration goes.

I can see that, and streamlining the process of legal entry into the US would certainly lower the amount of illegal immigration into the country, but at the same time that would mainly only work for people entering the country illegally.

Then you would have to solve the problem of people coming into this country legally and overstaying their visas.

Which, in my opinion, is a much harder, and more important thing to fix as far as immigration goes.
Don't confuse my objections to amnesty with a lack of interest in improving immigration. Immigrants are essential. It's just that good solutions are never easy. It is obvious that we can't or don't choose to monitor those with work visas. We sure need to. But first things first. Stop the illegal entry to the country and replace it with a decent sponsorship/guest worker program.

Now that we're giving away work visas a little more freely, we need to establish severe penalties for anyone that hires an undocumented worker. Or, maybe we have those penalties already in place. Big, established companies should be relatively easy to manage because the employees are concentrated. The tougher employers to police are going to be the one-man shops that hire day labor. We need to figure out how to audit the landscapers that operate without business licenses or the contractors that pay in cash -- guys that are already breaking the law, but getting away with it. And we need to figure out how to do it without becoming a police state.

There's always going to be a black market in labor. You're right that the tough part is going to be reducing its size.

{after a short break}
Maybe sponsorship is the answer. Make the prospective worker get a sponsor, typically his employer. That still wouldn't work for small, one-man operations, but it would provide a responsible party for the initial term of the visa. If we call that party 30 days before the visa expires to check on the status of the visa recipient and they don't know where the recipient is, we hammer them with a fine. Maybe we put someone in jail? When the idea spreads that we're serious, I think the sponsors will be very careful about how they keep track of their workers.

So we accept that the rule of law is okay for some, but only advisory for others. Who gets to make that decision? These folks break the law on many fronts.

Let's work on a better way to allow legal entry to the country, not how to legitimize illegal activity.

I accept that they need to break the law to make a better life for themseves and I accept that we need to make it easier for immigrants to become legal residents. *shrug*

Clearly, you are not affected by taxes enough to make a sound decision. Are you really paying or are you getting that awful EIC? Try a year of paying the AMT and see what you have to say about additional taxes for residents that shouldn't even be here.


Not so clearly since no I don't get earned income credit. I am a professional and make the professional bucks, therefore they take a buttload of money from me in taxes. My life isn't easy breezy, but as I said I am willing to accept that if it means help for those who need it.

I'd rather it went to helping illegal imigrants with medical care than paying an overbloated military to do things such as put up a non-functional 'missle shield' to save us from the non-existant threat of Irans ICBM's. I'd rather it went to feed illegal immigrants on teh verge of starving rather than give corporate subsidies to oil companies making record profits.

But thats just me because I care about people even if they aren't from my country and even if they don't follow our immigration laws.

Excellent. I might as well add sinful to my cv.:rolleyes:

I accept that they need to break the law to make a better life for themseves and I accept that we need to make it easier for immigrants to become legal residents. *shrug*




Not so clearly since no I don't get earned income credit. I am a professional and make the professional bucks, therefore they take a buttload of money from me in taxes. My life isn't easy breezy, but as I said I am willing to accept that if it means help for those who need it.

I'd rather it went to helping illegal imigrants with medical care than paying an overbloated military to do things such as put up a non-functional 'missle shield' to save us from the non-existant threat of Irans ICBM's. I'd rather it went to feed illegal immigrants on teh verge of starving rather than give corporate subsidies to oil companies making record profits.

But thats just me because I care about people even if they aren't from my country and even if they don't follow our immigration laws.
Nice to see that callous disregard for the rule of law, as well as an incredible ignorance of economics. You're just the type that the Big Two count on to remain in power.

Nice to see that callous disregard for the rule of law, as well as an incredible ignorance of economics. You're just the type that the Big Two count on to remain in power.


I don't disreegard it entirely, only when I disagree with the law and feel that it hurts people, or is unnecessary.

If the US economy was about to collapse from this huge burden I imagine steps would be taken so I am not so worried.

Also I don't like either of the Big Two, so I don't see where you get this.

Now, I'm a christian and I'm against illegal immigration. Now you show me somewhere in the bible that says that not wanting people to come into this country is a sin, and then maybe ill listen to you.

Now, I'm a christian and I'm against illegal immigration. Now you show me somewhere in the bible that says that not wanting people to come into this country is a sin, and then maybe ill listen to you.

Certainly:

Matthew, Chapter 25 31-40
Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'
Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'
And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

---
Tell me, how is letting a fellow human starve fulfilling the Gospel's words?

Now, I'm a christian and I'm against illegal immigration. Now you show me somewhere in the bible that says that not wanting people to come into this country is a sin, and then maybe ill listen to you.

um, all over.

start with leviticus 19. god personally commands that you not only treat the stranger and alien the same as a native, but demands that you give them free food.

start with leviticus 19. god personally commands that you not only treat the stranger and alien the same as a native, but demands that you give them free food.

Well the hell with that. Would you welcome an intruder who comes unwelcomed into your house and starts eating your food?

I don't hate immigrants.

I hate illegal immigrants.

I don't hate immigrants.

I hate illegal immigrants.
Then you're against what's best for America...In other words, you're unpatriotic.

The president has taken to suggesting that opponents of his immigration bill are unpatriotic--they "don't want to do what's right for America." His ally Sen. Lindsey Graham has said, "We're gonna tell the bigots to shut up." On Fox last weekend he vowed to "push back." Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff suggested opponents would prefer illegal immigrants be killed; Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez said those who oppose the bill want "mass deportation." Former Bush speechwriter Michael Gerson said those who oppose the bill are "anti-immigrant" and suggested they suffer from "rage" and "national chauvinism."

http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/

snip

Rush Limbaugh singing the obscene tune ''Barack the Magic Negro'' is inviting prejudice and violence.

snip


Rush didn't originate that phrase. A writer for the LA Times named David Ehrenstein did. Rush was using it to parody the racism evident in speeches from leftist politicians. Don't believe it?

Well, because after Joe Biden, another Democrat, said after Obama was in the race, it's great, we finally have a black candidate that's "clean and articulate" running for president. The New York Post ran a story about Sharpton being a little jealous because he takes a bath every day and he was a presidential candidate and here's Biden and these other Democrats talking about how clean and articulate Obama is, and the New York Post story said that there might be a little jealousy here. So, there's a timeline. Everything in that parody is indeed a parody of what liberals and leftists are saying.
...
RUSH: What's dangerous is you characterizing members of an audience that you don't know as "racists," and you're doing this, again, from a standpoint of ignorance. I'm glad you called, because I actually am glad to have the opportunity to tell you this. As I have said repeatedly, it breaks my heart to see how minorities in this country are treated by the people who claim to be their champions, because those people who claim to be their champions are the exact opposite. It is not I nor is it this audience who are racists. I didn't come up with this whole concept of Barack and this "magic negro" thing. It is leftists in this country who are obsessed with skin color and gender and sexual orientation and grouping people into those categories and then seeing them as victims, and when you see them as victims, you don't see their full potential. You deny it. You see people who are incompetent, and it breaks my heart. We are conservatives. We want the best for everybody. We believe that we're human beings. I don't look at Barack Obama and say, "Is he black enough?" Liberals write pieces about Barack Obama and ask, "Is he black enough?" on the basis of does he have roots to the civil rights protests and movement in this country.

The complete article (http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_050207/content/01125108.guest.html)

I only point this out because of how quick people are to accuse people like Limbaugh of racism without actually knowing anything.

Well the hell with that. Would you welcome an intruder who comes unwelcomed into your house and starts eating your food?

Is your house a political entity governed by representatives of the nation?

Do you make people who visit your house go through customs, background checks and obtain passports or visas?

I don't hate immigrants.

I hate illegal immigrants.

Typical excuse. The point is that you hate fellow humans, and these people NEED to come here to survive. They can not afford "legal" paperwork! Would you rather them starve to death. Yes or no.

Typical excuse. The point is that you hate fellow humans, and these people NEED to come here to survive. They can not afford "legal" paperwork! Would you rather them starve to death. Yes or no.

In all cases?

In all cases?

I would rather a few "bad" ones slip through than condemn ANY who are good honest workers.

I would rather a few "bad" ones slip through than condemn ANY who are good honest workers.

So can I say that I hate undeserving illegal immigrants then?

Actually I don't think 'hate' is the correct word. I dislike the idea that people could sneak into a country illegally when their reasons are bad

Rush didn't originate that phrase. A writer for the LA Times named David Ehrenstein did.

firstly, the term is older than that. and secondly, so? if you can't see the racism in fatfuck's song, and conversely, the discussion of racism in ehrenstein's article (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-ehrenstein19mar19,0,5335087.story), then there is probably no help for you. unless you need help starching your sheets or something.

Typical excuse. The point is that you hate fellow humans, and these people NEED to come here to survive. They can not afford "legal" paperwork! Would you rather them starve to death. Yes or no.

I gotta jump in on this.

This is a form of logical fallacy called a False Dilemma. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma) It's when you create a scenario in which illegal immigrants either must come across the border illegaly, or they die. If that were reality, there would be very few opponents of allowing illegal immigration indeed.

Reality check: It is not true that illegal immigrants generally cross the border for food. There are a myriad of reasons, but you have a very hefty burden of proof if you intend to assert that all illegal immigrants are starving and come here to eat.

If a person asserts that he or she hates illegals and does NOT hate legals, then you have created another massive burden of proof for yourself to prove otherwise. Using logical fallacy to prove your point will fail.

firstly, the term is older than that. and secondly, so? if you can't see the racism in fatfuck's song, and conversely, the discussion of racism in ehrenstein's article (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-ehrenstein19mar19,0,5335087.story), then there is probably no help for you. unless you need help starching your sheets or something.

Did you read the article I linked to?

They CAN come here legally and they should. I believe we should help them and have nothing against immigrants. I agree with Neo Bretonnia. Just because you live in Mexico or some other poorer country, does not mean you will drop dead of not immigrating.

How would some other countries feel if we suddenly decided to all rush to them? Any other country would be no where near as lenient. There all all sorts of programs to make sure that the immigrants are at least documented.

What about the security threat that illegal immigrantion bring? Do you want terrorists to sneak through American borders undocumented?

What about all the crime illegal immigration brings? What about all the drug mules that bring drugs into America? Thats a sin too. Should we help them? No wait, they're rich because the cheated our borders and managed to sell drugs in America. I have no problem with immigrants and it would be great to let them all in but would that justify all the crime and terrorism it would bring in. How about all the hospitals that can't treat tax-paying Americans because immigrants occupy space. Should I give the immigrants my house? What about my car? They can even take my dog. Hospitals have closed down from bankrupcy.

What about the other countries? Why should we help a few countries and not all of them? Can we let all of Africa into our country? They are war-torn and children are drafted into civil wars.

How about all the other immigrants that came here fairly and expericed more difficulty. In Ireland, during the potato famine, Irish rushed LEGALLY to America. They were actually starving due to lack of their main crop. How many of them got sent back because of disease? We didn't let them in because they tried LEGALLY. Now, its even easier. How many Irish had to settle into Irish ghettos and could not get jobs. Stores had signs saying "No Irish Need Apply". You don't see that anymore.

Should we give up our heritage for theirs? Sure they should have the choice but should our whole society shift for theirs? Lets let some of the Native Americans practice cannabolism.

We should not hate them, and I respect those that came here legally but we need to stop illegal immigration.

Did you read the article I linked to?

you'll have to pardon me if i don't put much stock in the anti-racist credibility of fatfuck. especially given his stellar record on race before and since.

How about all the other immigrants that came here fairly and expericed more difficulty. In Ireland, during the potato famine, Irish rushed LEGALLY to America. They were actually starving due to lack of their main crop. How many of them got sent back because of disease? We didn't let them in because they tried LEGALLY. Now, its even easier. How many Irish had to settle into Irish ghettos and could not get jobs. Stores had signs saying "No Irish Need Apply". You don't see that anymore.

you might want to look into the history of immigration law - they've changed a bit over the years.

while you are at it, the truth about nonexistent NINA signs makes for interesting reading too.

They CAN come here legally and they should. I believe we should help them and have nothing against immigrants. I agree with Neo Bretonnia. Just because you live in Mexico or some other poorer country, does not mean you will drop dead of not immigrating.

How would some other countries feel if we suddenly decided to all rush to them? Any other country would be no where near as lenient. There all all sorts of programs to make sure that the immigrants are at least documented.

What about the security threat that illegal immigrantion bring? Do you want terrorists to sneak through American borders undocumented?

What about all the crime illegal immigration brings? What about all the drug mules that bring drugs into America? Thats a sin too. Should we help them? No wait, they're rich because the cheated our borders and managed to sell drugs in America. I have no problem with immigrants and it would be great to let them all in but would that justify all the crime and terrorism it would bring in. How about all the hospitals that can't treat tax-paying Americans because immigrants occupy space. Should I give the immigrants my house? What about my car? They can even take my dog. Hospitals have closed down from bankrupcy.

What about the other countries? Why should we help a few countries and not all of them? Can we let all of Africa into our country? They are war-torn and children are drafted into civil wars.

How about all the other immigrants that came here fairly and expericed more difficulty. In Ireland, during the potato famine, Irish rushed LEGALLY to America. They were actually starving due to lack of their main crop. How many of them got sent back because of disease? We didn't let them in because they tried LEGALLY. Now, its even easier. How many Irish had to settle into Irish ghettos and could not get jobs. Stores had signs saying "No Irish Need Apply". You don't see that anymore.

Should we give up our heritage for theirs? Sure they should have the choice but should our whole society shift for theirs? Lets let some of the Native Americans practice cannabolism.

We should not hate them, and I respect those that came here legally but we need to stop illegal immigration.

1. So you think illegal immigrants could be here legally if they chose, but for some reason they diliberately choose to be here illegally?

2. Thank you for making clear that, like many who claim to be upset merely by the illegal status of some immigrants, what you really don't like is the immigrants themselves.

3. What the fuck are you babbling about cannibalism?

you'll have to pardon me if i don't put much stock in the anti-racist credibility of fatfuck. especially given his stellar record on race before and since.

ok so translation: "I'm not interested in having a dialogue or listening to the other side I just want to spew my criticisms with or without an actual factual foundation for them."

Gotcha.

1. So you think illegal immigrants could be here legally if they chose, but for some reason they dilberately choose to be here illegally?

2. Thank you for making clear that, like many who claim to be upset merely by the illegal status of some immigrants, what you really don't like is the immigrants themselves.

Yet another example of people who can't argue the point so they create a strawman argument to try and shout down the opposition. It's obvious that you read Diatomaceous Ooze's post not for the substance of his/her argument, but trying to pick out something to use to characterize the poster as a racist who's anti-immigrant period.

Well I happen to agree with Diatomaceous Ooze. Does that mean I hate immigrants? Be very careful when you answer, because most of my extended family is Ecuadorian and has or currently does live in the United States, including my father. And you know, they did it legally. I am a part of a family of immigrants and yet I still oppose ILLEGAL immigration. if you're so separated form reality that you can't/won't see the difference, then your argument has failed before it even got started.

Yet defending pedophile rapist priests is alright?

Ye like we should listen to a word those retards tell us.

They don't even follow Christs teachings. Catholic Church should reform or be abolished.

So can I say that I hate undeserving illegal immigrants then?

Actually I don't think 'hate' is the correct word. I dislike the idea that people could sneak into a country illegally when their reasons are bad

It is not for us to determine if their reason is valid or not. If they commit another crime, that is seperate from their immigration.

How would some other countries feel if we suddenly decided to all rush to them? Any other country would be no where near as lenient. There all all sorts of programs to make sure that the immigrants are at least documented.

What about the security threat that illegal immigrantion bring? Do you want terrorists to sneak through American borders undocumented?

Should we give up our heritage for theirs? Sure they should have the choice but should our whole society shift for theirs? Lets let some of the Native Americans practice cannabolism.
1) Spain legalizes all of them. No problem there.
2) The terrorists that attacked us on 9/11 were documented as being in country
3) American heritage is supposed to bring ALL heritages into one nation.

Yet another example of people who can't argue the point so they create a strawman argument to try and shout down the opposition. It's obvious that you read Diatomaceous Ooze's post not for the substance of his/her argument, but trying to pick out something to use to characterize the poster as a racist who's anti-immigrant period.

Speaking of creating a strawman rather than arguing a point ...

You don't address the substance of what Diatomaceous Ooze said. I did.

Well I happen to agree with Diatomaceous Ooze. Does that mean I hate immigrants? Be very careful when you answer, because most of my extended family is Ecuadorian and has or currently does live in the United States, including my father. And you know, they did it legally. I am a part of a family of immigrants and yet I still oppose ILLEGAL immigration. if you're so separated form reality that you can't/won't see the difference, then your argument has failed before it even got started.

If your only problem with illegal immigrants is that there status is illegal, then you must favor amnesty with background checks, right?

Did anyone see the op and think "omg godwin's law"

Yet defending pedophile rapist priests is alright?

Ye like we should listen to a word those retards tell us.

They don't even follow Christs teachings. Catholic Church should reform or be abolished.

What does this have to do with the thread? Fr. Greeley has spoken against the hirearchy on that issue. Do some research before running your mouth. Start a new thread if you want to discuss this, don't hijack mine.

ok so translation: "I'm not interested in having a dialogue or listening to the other side I just want to spew my criticisms with or without an actual factual foundation for them."

Gotcha.

While your position is "Rush says he isn't being racist, so he isn't." Much more sound. :rolleyes:

I gotta jump in on this.

This is a form of logical fallacy called a False Dilemma. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma) It's when you create a scenario in which illegal immigrants either must come across the border illegaly, or they die. If that were reality, there would be very few opponents of allowing illegal immigration indeed.

Reality check: It is not true that illegal immigrants generally cross the border for food. There are a myriad of reasons, but you have a very hefty burden of proof if you intend to assert that all illegal immigrants are starving and come here to eat.

If a person asserts that he or she hates illegals and does NOT hate legals, then you have created another massive burden of proof for yourself to prove otherwise. Using logical fallacy to prove your point will fail.

How are we supposed to determine who is starving? Stop every person with dark skin and ask them? Illogical.

Did anyone see the op and think "omg godwin's law"

The column is from a newspaper, not an internet discussion.

While your position is "Rush says he isn't being racist, so he isn't." Much more sound. :rolleyes:

No, my position is that I actually LISTEN to Rush and am intelligent enough to tell the difference. What's your excuse?

For you and those like you who like to cast Rush and others like him as racist, I have 2 questions. 1) Do you actually LISTEN to his show, and are informed enough to make such a judgement and 2) for the sake of consistency, are you equally prepared to take Sharpton to task for his remarks that actually ARE racist?

How are we supposed to determine who is starving? Stop every person with dark skin and ask them? Illogical.

So you're creating this mythology where

1)People cross the border for food (unlikely since it's a DESERT for the most part)
2)People who are hungry are above the law
3)Since we can't tell which is which we should just let EVERYBODY cross?

now THAT is illogical

..and entertaining

Speaking of creating a strawman rather than arguing a point ...

You don't address the substance of what Diatomaceous Ooze said. I did.

Wow you should have read my whole post before trying to shoot it down. If you had you's have seen thet my very next line was to indicate I agreed with said post.


If your only problem with illegal immigrants is that there status is illegal, then you must favor amnesty with background checks, right?

No, because amnesty is not justice. I have no problem with legal immigration because a legal immigrant is someone who has demonstrated a respect for US law and a willingness to abide by it. Amnesty rewards those who don't.

See how simple it is?

So you're creating this mythology where

1)People cross the border for food (unlikely since it's a DESERT for the most part)
2)People who are hungry are above the law
3)Since we can't tell which is which we should just let EVERYBODY cross?

now THAT is illogical

..and entertaining

1) Honestly, have you neber heard of those who die trying to cross the desert?
2) Yes, STARVING people should be above the law. The law is meant to, ideally, protect the people. If you are starving, you may take a loaf of bread.
3)Legalize everyone who does cross.

No, because amnesty is not justice. I have no problem with legal immigration because a legal immigrant is someone who has demonstrated a respect for US law and a willingness to abide by it. Amnesty rewards those who don't.
See how simple it is?

Not simple at all. The "illegal" can not afford the paperwork, nor the wait.

No, my position is that I actually LISTEN to Rush and am intelligent enough to tell the difference. What's your excuse?

I am wise enough to recognize racism when I hear it. Apparently, you are not.


For you and those like you who like to cast Rush and others like him as racist, I have 2 questions. 1) Do you actually LISTEN to his show, and are informed enough to make such a judgement and 2) for the sake of consistency, are you equally prepared to take Sharpton to task for his remarks that actually ARE racist?

1. I have listened to Rush. I've heard the Obama song. I used to listen to him a lot until he got too sickening. I've read the article you linked. How much more informed am I required to be to recognize obvious racism disguised as parody?

2. Of course I'm prepared to take Sharpton to task when he says something racist. But that is just a smokescreen. Al Sharpton isn't some kind of get of jail free card that if he says something wrong suddenly it's okay for everyone to be racist.

Wow you should have read my whole post before trying to shoot it down. If you had you's have seen thet my very next line was to indicate I agreed with said post.

I saw that you said you agree with DO's post. That wasn't exactly substantive commentary, now was it?

But pray tell why you agree with the part of DO's post that attacks all immigrants and not just illegal immigrants. It specifically argues against allowing individuals here legally -- or were you too busy with a kneejerk response to catch that.


No, because amnesty is not justice. I have no problem with legal immigration because a legal immigrant is someone who has demonstrated a respect for US law and a willingness to abide by it. Amnesty rewards those who don't.

See how simple it is?

Orwellian simple.

The situation of illegal immigration in the USA is exactly as the politicians in that country want it. They use the illegal immigrants as political cannon fodder. If they really wanted to stop it they could easily do so by punishing the companies that hire them. Walls and hunts are good for nothing.

And on the matter of language, as a mexican citizen I can tell you. Spanish AND english will finally merge into a new language SPANGLISH... face it and start learning it. :P

"Illegal" Immigrants have a right to feed their families. This is the type of bigotry the article talks about.

Pull your head out of where it is planted. There is no right to break the law, even for feeding your family. It is not bigotry to expect people to obey the law in coming to the country and paying taxes---all of them, not just the 3 out of five years. It's not bigotry because the standard applies whether it is an illegal mexican or an illegal irish immigrant.

I have no problem with legal immigration. They are wonderfully useful for our society and they contribute much. I do have a problem with people who's first act is to violate our laws. That's not bigotry, that is expecting people to follow the same standards as anyone else.

I saw that you said you agree with DO's post. That wasn't exactly substantive commentary, now was it?


What am I supposed to say? If I have nothing to add then I see no reason to just repeat the post and put too fine a point on it.

Quality over quantity, unless you're just fishing for more material to twist.


But pray tell why you agree with the part of DO's post that attacks all immigrants and not just illegal immigrants. It specifically argues against allowing individuals here legally -- or were you too busy with a kneejerk response to catch that.


It does no such thing. He says that he's for legal immigration and against illegal immigration. I read the post in the spirit of that. I'm sorry if I'm not twisting his words around the same way you do. I re-read his post before replying to you to be sure I didn't miss anything, and it seems to me the only part you take esception to is a part that is specifically prefaced with a comment about how taxpaying legal immigrants are suffering because of the illegal ones.

Careful, don't bang your knee there when you jerk it.


I am wise enough to recognize racism when I hear it. Apparently, you are not.


Translation: "You are a fool because you fail to agree with my opinion."

I find a lot less racism on the conservative side, including Rush, than I find on the liberal side. The difference is liberal racism is disguised as pity (which is worse, IMHO)


1. I have listened to Rush. I've heard the Obama song. I used to listen to him a lot until he got too sickening. I've read the article you linked. How much more informed am I required to be to recognize obvious racism disguised as parody?
If you listen to Rush with the same level of objectivity and comprehension as you read the posts on here, it doesn't surprise me that you've got the wrong idea.

2. Of course I'm prepared to take Sharpton to task when he says something racist. But that is just a smokescreen. Al Sharpton isn't some kind of get of jail free card that if he says something wrong suddenly it's okay for everyone to be racist.


Not a smokescreen at all. Please stop twisting my meaning. It's not okay for ANYBODy to be racist, but it always amuses me in a rueful kind of way when people jump all over RUsh for racism when he's not BEING racist, but Sharpton goes out there and makes comments that degrade whites, Jews, Mormons and anybody else he doesn't like and he doesn't have to answer for it. All the while he goes off on people like Imus as if his own crap didn't stink.

Pull your head out of where it is planted. There is no right to break the law, even for feeding your family. It is not bigotry to expect people to obey the law in coming to the country and paying taxes---all of them, not just the 3 out of five years. It's not bigotry because the standard applies whether it is an illegal mexican or an illegal irish immigrant.

I have no problem with legal immigration. They are wonderfully useful for our society and they contribute much. I do have a problem with people who's first act is to violate our laws. That's not bigotry, that is expecting people to follow the same standards as anyone else.

QFT

1) Honestly, have you neber heard of those who die trying to cross the desert?

2) Yes, STARVING people should be above the law. The law is meant to, ideally, protect the people. If you are starving, you may take a loaf of bread.


Good gawd please take my hand... I'll help you get a grip on reality. Nowhere is it written that it's permissible to steal.

Yes, the law is written to protect people, but it protects ALL people. Yes, even those who have food, I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you. if you steal a loaf of bred from me, you're harming me. Th elaw protects me from that. if you're starving, we have soup kitchens, churches, etc that will feed you. You have no reason to break the law.

In the meantime, stop tossing out the Red Herring that implies that illegal immigration is somehow all about feeding the starving. It isn't. You're not being intellectually honest here.


3)Legalize everyone who does cross.

So that legal immigrants/Americans can be victims instead of the illegal ones. Rah!


Not simple at all. The "illegal" can not afford the paperwork, nor the wait.

Guess whose problem that is? Give up? Well, in the case of Mexicans, it's the Mexican Government's problem!

If you people were REALLY about feeding the hungry and making life better for the immigrants that come illegally from Mexico, you'd me more interested in exploring ways of helping the Mexican Government improve conditions for its own people. That way, they wouldn't HAVE to die crossing the border. (You said it yourself, they die crossing the border) That would save lives, wouldn't it?

But no. None of you EVER talk about that.

Guess whose problem that is? Give up? Well, in the case of Mexicans, it's the Mexican Government's problem!

In the case of illegal immigrants, its their problem because you're sitting here pulling off a "but the Mexican government is bad!" tu quoque fallacy while they're the ones actually suffering.

If you people were REALLY about feeding the hungry and making life better for the immigrants that come illegally from Mexico, you'd me more interested in exploring ways of helping the Mexican Government improve conditions for its own people. That way, they wouldn't HAVE to die crossing the border.

What a fabulous suggestion. But you see, I'm a US citizen, not a Mexican citizen, so guess which government I have a say in?


But no. None of you EVER talk about that.

And if you REALLY cared about law, even so much that law is more important than people feeding themselves, you'd raise a stink about any and all crimes. But no, it's just those "illegals" you bitch about. You people NEVER talk about jaywalking. Why not? Isn't the "illegal" action something you deplore? Because ya know, you're just a Concerned American Citizen who strives for Law and Order above all other things?

Pull your head out of where it is planted. There is no right to break the law, even for feeding your family.

It is not a just law. I suggest you "get your head out of where it is planted." Would you rather us blindly follow laws, even if it means death for your family?

Guess whose problem that is? Give up? Well, in the case of Mexicans, it's the Mexican Government's problem!

They are our fellow humans, therefore, we have a duty to help them!

On the issue of crossing the desert: if they could cross at legitimate crossings, legally, we also would not have that problem.

Also, Spain seems to be doing ok with legalizing the people that make it to their lands.

In the case of illegal immigrants, its their problem because you're sitting here pulling off a "but the Mexican government is bad!" tu quoque fallacy while they're the ones actually suffering.


That's not actually what a tu quoque fallacy is, but that doesn't matter since you're mischaracterizing what I said anyway.

I said it is the problem of the Mexican Government. I did not evaluate the Mexican Government as being bad or good. And yes, if the Mexcian Government were able or willing to remedy the problem, then there's a pretty good chance its people wouldn't be suffering, no?


What a fabulous suggestion. But you see, I'm a US citizen, not a Mexican citizen, so guess which government I have a say in?

Ah, but the US Government can assist the Mexican Government, can it not? Or apply political/economic pressure.


And if you REALLY cared about law, even so much that law is more important than people feeding themselves, you'd raise a stink about any and all crimes. But no, it's just those "illegals" you bitch about. You people NEVER talk about jaywalking. Why not? Isn't the "illegal" action something you deplore? Because ya know, you're just a Concerned American Citizen who strives for Law and Order above all other things?

So you're saying that I can't complain about the violation of immigration laws until I've first complained about the violation of every single other law first?

Boy I'm glad we met. Please send me a list of all laws in the US and the order in which it's acceptable to complain about the breaking of them.

Guess whose problem that is? Give up? Well, in the case of Mexicans, it's the Mexican Government's problem!

If you people were REALLY about feeding the hungry and making life better for the immigrants that come illegally from Mexico, you'd me more interested in exploring ways of helping the Mexican Government improve conditions for its own people. That way, they wouldn't HAVE to die crossing the border. (You said it yourself, they die crossing the border) That would save lives, wouldn't it?

But no. None of you EVER talk about that.

Here, here!!!

To fix a problem, you start at the source. When you have a leaking water tower, do you put a bucket at the bottom? Or do you climb up the tower and put a patch of duct tape across the hole?

If you use a bucket, you must change and empty this bucket many times. But you usually only need to patch something once. Sometimes you need supplements, but usually once.

And duct tape isn't the ideal tool for this, I know, but I love duct tape :P

(I post for Pschycotic Pschycos, as the fecking computer logged in on the wrong account. d'oh!)

They are our fellow humans, therefore, we have a duty to help them!

By allowing them to break the law and take without contributing?

What is the matter with you? Why is it that in your mind somehow us helping peple is equivalent to letting them break the law and be here illegally? if we want to help immigrants then I say make the laws easier to work with. Make it easier to come here LEGALLY. Make it cheaper/safer/faster whatever.

Unless you don't WANT them to contribute. Legal immigrants pay taxes, social security and so on. (Some illegals do, but not many) Why don't you want them to pay taxes and contribute to social security?


On the issue of crossing the desert: if they could cross at legitimate crossings, legally, we also would not have that problem.


That would go with improving immigration law. Good idea. Let's give them a way to do it legally! NOW you're being rational.


Also, Spain seems to be doing ok with legalizing the people that make it to their lands.

...you must be joking. Who are you parroting that from?

While your position is "Rush says he isn't being racist, so he isn't." Much more sound. :rolleyes:

hey, when has rush ever lied before?

I would rather a few "bad" ones slip through than condemn ANY who are good honest workers.

An honest illegal alien is an oxymoron.

They are our fellow humans, therefore, we have a duty to help them!

Their government has a duty to help them.

On the issue of crossing the desert: if they could cross at legitimate crossings, legally, we also would not have that problem.

Oh yes, let's erect a big sign: ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS CROSS HERE!!! We're supposed to make it easier for people to break our laws? :rolleyes: They are not legitimate, so they shouldn't expect a warm welcome with us tending to their every convenience.

You people have not one brain among you.

This is not about hatred of immigrants, as the very title of this thread misleadingly claims, it's about being opposed to people entering our country illegally, and thus people who are not even "immigrants" in the first place. This has nothing to do with legal immigrants.

And if being against the idea of people unlawfully sneaking into our country and taking American jobs without even becoming American citizens is supposed to be a "sin", well guess what. I don't give a damn.

Lets clear up some points

There has been much bandying about the costs of Immigration. There should be no cost to enter this country, the best thing we could do would be to build an Ellis Island type facility somewhere along the border so that every immigrant can get a quick physical and a background check upon entering this country legally. Those found to be sick could be whisked to an emergency room if necessary, or just given a bottle of medicine if they have nothing more than a cough or the flu. This is how my family did it oh so many years ago, and it worked fine then.

Also, as many have failed to point out when discussing the costs to come here legally, it costs many thousands of dollars too sneak in as well if you want a coyote to help you across. If you pay this price, you stand a better chance of sneaking past the ICE (The INS has been disbanded). However, if you get a coyote, you also stand the chance of being abandoned by the coyote and left to die in the dessert.

Also, while many of the Illegals are here working honestly, there are also those who exploit the porous border for their own criminal gain. For example, the El Salvadoran Gang, MS 13 is made up almost entirely of Illegal Salvadorans.

Also, many members of the Mexican Drug Cartels use the Mexican Soldiers that they own to kidnap Americans who live on the border if said reports their activities to either the ICE or the DEA.

Most importantly with this debate, is that Hezbollah, a Terror Organization with cells in my hometown of KC, is currently utilizing the nation of Venezuela to train their Terrorists in how to blend with Hispanics as they cross the border. This was reported by Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch, and can be verified at the home site of Jihad Watch or at Hot Air.com.

And, in closing, many Emergency Rooms across the country have closed because of Illegals who have not taken advantage of free clinics, and instead waited until they got to the point where they needed the Emergency Room as they cannot be turned away, even if they cannot be paid.

I would like to conclude that I am not a racist. I have nothing against the Portuguese/Brazilians who are making up the largest group of Legal Immigrants, and the only problem I have with the vast majority of Illegal Immigrants is that they are breaking our Immigration laws, committing Fraud, and committing Identity Theft.

Very good points, American Planets.

It does no such thing. He says that he's for legal immigration and against illegal immigration. I read the post in the spirit of that. I'm sorry if I'm not twisting his words around the same way you do. I re-read his post before replying to you to be sure I didn't miss anything, and it seems to me the only part you take esception to is a part that is specifically prefaced with a comment about how taxpaying legal immigrants are suffering because of the illegal ones.

Um. Rather than reading the "spirit" of what DO said, perhaps you should look at what he actually said.

Like he would oppose allowing legal immigration because it would cause crime and terrorism.

I object to the entire rant and made three specific points about it. It's not my problem that you reject what DO said for something you imagine.



Translation: "You are a fool because you fail to agree with my opinion."

I find a lot less racism on the conservative side, including Rush, than I find on the liberal side. The difference is liberal racism is disguised as pity (which is worse, IMHO)


If you listen to Rush with the same level of objectivity and comprehension as you read the posts on here, it doesn't surprise me that you've got the wrong idea.


Not a smokescreen at all. Please stop twisting my meaning. It's not okay for ANYBODy to be racist, but it always amuses me in a rueful kind of way when people jump all over RUsh for racism when he's not BEING racist, but Sharpton goes out there and makes comments that degrade whites, Jews, Mormons and anybody else he doesn't like and he doesn't have to answer for it. All the while he goes off on people like Imus as if his own crap didn't stink.

I love this.

DO's racist comments aren't racist. Anti-immigrant tirades aren't racist.

Rush Limbaugh's racist song "Barack the Magic Negro" isn't the slightest bit racist.

Apparently, Imus's racist comments weren't racist.

The only true racists are liberals and Al Sharpton. :rolleyes::headbang:

Crawl back under your rock and leave decent folk alone.

Crawl back under your rock and leave decent folk alone.

speaking of crawling out from rocks, did you hear about what happened in moscow a few weeks ago?

That's not actually what a tu quoque fallacy is, but that doesn't matter since you're mischaracterizing what I said anyway.

Yes, it's not technically a tu quoque fallacy, but it's the same flavor - two wrongs make a right.

I said it is the problem of the Mexican Government.

No, illegal immigration in the US is a problem in and of the US.

Particularly since not all illegal immigrants are from Mexico.

And yes, if the Mexcian Government were able or willing to remedy the problem, then there's a pretty good chance its people wouldn't be suffering, no?

And if the US government were able or willing to remedy the problem, there's a good chance such people wouldn't be suffering here either.

Ah, but the US Government can assist the Mexican Government, can it not? Or apply political/economic pressure.

You mean like the US government assists those of Iraq and Afghanistan?

Call me crazy, I don't hold much confidence in US diplomacy.

So you're saying that I can't complain about the violation of immigration laws until I've first complained about the violation of every single other law first?

It's simple. If this is purely an issue of "illegal immigration is ILLEGAL111!!!" then the problem is not with immigration, but with a crime being committed. Hence I would expect to see those who take such a position to argue against any and all criminal activities as vehemently as this one. Otherwise it seems like hey maybe your problem IS with immigration.


Boy I'm glad we met. Please send me a list of all laws in the US and the order in which it's acceptable to complain about the breaking of them.

If you don't know the laws of the US, I'm just gonna have to say you aren't integrated into our society and don't belong here.

It is not for us to determine if their reason is valid or not. If they commit another crime, that is seperate from their immigration.

I would argue it is

well according to catholic dogma hatred is a sin, full stop.

Hatred is a combination of Ira (wrath), Invidia (envy), and Superbia (pride). So, theologically, hate might even be a capital sin for christians. Also, because of that "love your enemies, love who hates you" (Paul, iirc). Since love is the opposite of hatred...

Oh well.

It is not for us to determine if their reason is valid or not.

Well whose job is it? They are entering our country illegally.

And if the US government were able or willing to remedy the problem, there's a good chance such people wouldn't be suffering here either.

People who have no legal right to be here in the first place. Why is it our job to do the Mexican government's job for it?

If you don't know the laws of the US, I'm just gonna have to say you aren't integrated into our society and don't belong here.

With the total disregard you've displayed for our border laws and national sovereignty, maybe you don't belong here yourself.

Crawl back under your rock and leave decent folk alone.

I would say the same to about 2/3 of the people on this thread. Or go marry an illegal alien, since you're so worried about their "right" to live in this country.

Will America Survive to 2050?
By Patrick J. Buchanan - August 25, 2006

“In 376 a large band of Gothic refugees arrived at the Empire’s Danube frontier, asking for asylum. In a complete break with established Roman policy, they were allowed in, unsubdued. They revolted, and within two years had defeated and killed the emperor Valens – the one who had received them – along with two-thirds of his army, at the battle of Hadrianople.”

So writes Oxford’s Peter Heather in “Fall of the Roman Empire: A New History of Rome and the Barbarians,” who is convinced that Valens’ welcoming of the Goths was the decision that sealed the fate of the empire.

As recent headlines tell us of 5 million more immigrants having arrived in America in the last five years, we see now, no longer as through a glass darkly, how America ends.

There are 36 million immigrants here, a number almost equal to all who ever came from Jamestown in 1607 to JFK. We are host to more illegal aliens, 12 million, than all the Jews, English and Irish who came over 400 years.

In George W. Bush’s tenure, 6 million intruders have been caught on our southern border breaking in. One in 12 had a criminal record. Behind them, waiting to see if Bush will grant amnesty or secure the border, are the world’s 4 billion to 5 billion people whose average income is less than that of Mexico.

Last year, 155,000 OTMs (”other than Mexicans”), triple the number of 2003, from Latin America, the Middle East, Africa and Asia, were caught. Four of five never appeared in court. They vanished into our midst.

These numbers are astronomical by any historical standard, and the mindset of many newcomers is not that of the Ellis Island generation. On May 1, almost a million Hispanics marched under Mexican flags through Los Angeles to demand the rights of U.S. citizenship for all illegals. Aerial shots revealed huge signs reading, “This is Our Land” and “Chicano Power.” In Mexico City, PAN party members marched beside communists and Subcommandante Marcos in solidarity with their kinsmen in America.

“With all due respect to Uncle Sam,” declaimed one Mexican TV reporter, “this shows that Los Angeles has never stopped being ours.”

Added the respected Mexican pundit Sergio Sarmiento, if Mexicans “have begun the reconquista of the territory that the United States took by force from Mexico between 1835 and 1848, they have been able to do this thanks to the fact that the Americans themselves have permitted it.”

And so we have. In 1994, Californians sought to slow the invasion with Proposition 187, restricting welfare to U.S. citizens and legal aliens. After 187 won in a landslide, a federal judge threw it out. “Art” Torres, chairman of the California Democratic Party, exulted, “187 was the last gasp of white America in California.”

So it appears to have been.

In the ’90s decade, for the first time since the Spanish arrived, the white population of California fell. Native-born Californians are heading over the mountains back to the lands whence their ancestors came. By ethnic origin, California and Texas are already Third World states. Hispanics alone account for 25 percent of the population of Arizona, 34 percent of California and Texas, 43 percent of New Mexico and growing shares of the population of Nevada, Colorado and Utah, all states carved out of Mexico.

Moreover, ethnic chauvinism is rampant in the barrios. As in the movements of Evo Morales in Bolivia and Ollanta Humala in Peru, barrio talk in America is increasingly about “indigenous peoples” and “European occupiers.” A black-brown war has broken out among the underclass in Los Angeles. Three in five Mexicans now believe the Southwest is stolen land that belongs to Mexico.

By 2050, the Census Bureau estimates 102 million Hispanics will live in America, heavily concentrated in the Southwest. The ethnic, linguistic and cultural reconquest of the American Southwest by Mexico is well advanced.

As I write in my new book, “State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America,” George Bush may go down in history as the man who not only lost the magnificent lands won for America by James Polk, but, by refusing to do his duty and halt this invasion, ensured the Balkanization and dissolution of his country.

Not to worry, we are told. The Melting Pot will work its magic. In a generation, the scores of millions who have come here will be assimilated and Americanized, as were the millions who came to Ellis Island.

The hope is delusional. The Melting Pot is broken. Our elites want it smashed forever. They no longer believe in assimilation – they worship at the altar of diversity. And millions of aliens are adamant about retaining their own language, culture, identity and allegiance to the mother country, not the United States.

The “hyphenated-Americanism” Teddy Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson decried is today celebrated. On California’s campuses there are separate dorms, fraternities, sororities, student centers and graduations for Asian, Hispanic and black students. The tens of millions coming endlessly from countries, cultures and civilizations whose peoples have never before been assimilated into a First World nation may spell the end of America as one nation and one people by mid-century. Why are we taking this risk?

Rush Limbaugh's racist song "Barack the Magic Negro" isn't the slightest bit racist.

I would like to point out that it was not Rush who first used that term. He sent an article from the LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-ehrenstein19mar19,0,5335087.story).

The song is used to make fun of the Reverends Sharpton and Jackson after they said that Barack Obama was not an "Authentic Black person."

I challenge you to listen to the show, and listen for the song, it is played before segments talking about the Reverends, and never before segments about Barack Obama.

Also, the whole Donovan McNabb incident is going to be brought up, now that some one has made the "Rush is a Racist" comment. I would like to say that I agree with Rush Limbaugh on this matter. What he said was that Donovan McNabb was being overrated by the media based on the color of his skin, not on the quality of play. Media Matters, a decidedly Liberal organization, has even quoted him as saying such. How is it racist to demand that the media ignore the color of an athlete's skin, and instead focus on the quality of their play.

After all, didn't Saint Martin Luther King Jr. himself say "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

Will America Survive to 2050?
By Patrick J. Buchanan - August 25, 2006

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/2548/pattyqr5.jpg

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/5827/pattyim8.jpg

Is that supposed to be a corndog in his hands?

Is that supposed to be a corndog in his hands?

do you know what a corndog is?

do you know what a corndog is?

No...?

I'm a vegetarian. It just looked like a rolled up meat stick.

...is it a taco?

Yes, it's not technically a tu quoque fallacy, but it's the same flavor - two wrongs make a right.

Not if you understood my post... which clearly you still haven't, and are now just arguing semantics to try and dodge that fact.


No, illegal immigration in the US is a problem in and of the US.

Particularly since not all illegal immigrants are from Mexico.

And this comment proves that you aren't understanding my posts, porbably because you're too busy trying to simply pick them apart. The original exchange was to ask whose problem is starvation/poverty in Mexico. I indicated that's Mexico's problem. You've taken my remark completely out of context.

Again.


And if the US government were able or willing to remedy the problem, there's a good chance such people wouldn't be suffering here either.

See above. it isn't our problem.


You mean like the US government assists those of Iraq and Afghanistan?

Call me crazy, I don't hold much confidence in US diplomacy.

Well neother do I but if we expended as much resources on THAT aspect of the problem rather than giving a free ride to anyone who wants one, you'd probably be pleasantly surprised.


It's simple. If this is purely an issue of "illegal immigration is ILLEGAL111!!!" then the problem is not with immigration, but with a crime being committed. Hence I would expect to see those who take such a position to argue against any and all criminal activities as vehemently as this one. Otherwise it seems like hey maybe your problem IS with immigration.

That's downright goofy. This thread specifically addresses the issue of illegal immigration and you're telling me I can't have a counter opinion unless I argue against a thouand other completely unrelated laws at the same time.


If you don't know the laws of the US, I'm just gonna have to say you aren't integrated into our society and don't belong here.

Is that satire? OMG that's so great! HARHARHARHARHAR!!!

Um. Rather than reading the "spirit" of what DO said, perhaps you should look at what he actually said.

Like he would oppose allowing legal immigration because it would cause crime and terrorism.

I object to the entire rant and made three specific points about it. It's not my problem that you reject what DO said for something you imagine.


And it's not my problem you're stuck in a rut in which you believe that you hold the monopoly on understanding what the poster meant. You even claim to understand it better than the writer.

That mekes you either a psychic prodigy or amazingly arrogant and closed-minded.


I love this.

DO's racist comments aren't racist. Anti-immigrant tirades aren't racist.

Rush Limbaugh's racist song "Barack the Magic Negro" isn't the slightest bit racist.

Apparently, Imus's racist comments weren't racist.

The only true racists are liberals and Al Sharpton. :rolleyes::headbang:

Crawl back under your rock and leave decent folk alone.

Wow you can't take one single post in context, can you?

Why should we help a few countries and not all of them? (should) we let all of Africa into our country? They are war-torn and children are drafted into civil wars.At the very least.. we should stop Farm subsidies and other unfair trade practices..

And.. we should actively help the economies of the countries/peoples we have exploited in the past.

At the very least.. we should stop Farm subsidies and other unfair trade practices..

nah, we should totally spend billions of dollars a year giving millions of dollars to billionaires. its only fair.

No...?

I'm a vegetarian. It just looked like a rolled up meat stick.

...is it a taco?

it appears to be some sort of burrito.

a corn dog is the most disgusting food on the face of the earth

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/9/9a/Corndog_Inside.jpg

it appears to be some sort of burrito.

indeed.

a corn dog is the most disgusting food on the face of the earth

now that sounds like a challenge worthy of its own thread

now that sounds like a challenge worthy of its own thread
indeed.

I should have qualified it with "the most disgusting American mainstream kid food"

indeed.

I should have qualified it with "the most disgusting American mainstream kid food"

So it's basically a hot dog in cornbread?

That is pretty fricking nasty.

yep. deep fried so it's all greasy too. and it's on a stick....

I think I'm going to go regurgitate hummus now...

So it's basically a hot dog in cornbread?

That is pretty fricking nasty.

yep. deep fried so it's all greasy too. and it's on a stick....

And it's not my problem you're stuck in a rut in which you believe that you hold the monopoly on understanding what the poster meant. You even claim to understand it better than the writer.

That mekes you either a psychic prodigy or amazingly arrogant and closed-minded.

You are very good at name-calling and stating that I misunderstood DO's post.

You don't, however, explain where my three points about DO's post were wrong.

You seem to believe that because DO said he had no problem with immigrants we must take that a face value, even though he said anti-immigrant and racist things. Sorry, but that doesn't fly.

Wow you can't take one single post in context, can you?

Please explain what context I missed. You clearly have defended DO's post and Rush Limbaugh's 'Barack the Magic Negro' song as not racist. You imply that Imus's comments weren't racist either. I sense a pattern.

An honest illegal alien is an oxymoron.
I am going to restate the same thing I said many times in this thread: what about those who can not afford the paperwork and NEED to work?



Their government has a duty to help them.
And if they do not, that duty passes to us.


Oh yes, let's erect a big sign: ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS CROSS HERE!!! We're supposed to make it easier for people to break our laws? :rolleyes: They are not legitimate, so they shouldn't expect a warm welcome with us tending to their every convenience.

You people have not one brain among you.
[b]I am not going to hurl insults at you, such as yours right above this, but if we did that, they would not be illegal anymore, now would they?
See the bold in your quote.

Well whose job is it? They are entering our country illegally.

So we should turn away everybody for a few bad ones? SIck and disgusting.

People who have no legal right to be here in the first place. Why is it our job to do the Mexican government's job for it?
Well for one, not all are from Mexico. Second, why was it our job to intervene in ANYTHING then?


With the total disregard you've displayed for our border laws and national sovereignty, maybe you don't belong here yourself.
All American Citizens have a right to be here. Do not tell me you are going against US laws...


I would say the same to about 2/3 of the people on this thread. Or go marry an illegal alien, since you're so worried about their "right" to live in this country.
Subtle insults really prove a point.

See bold.

And if they do not, that duty passes to us.

Why does the duty to take care of another country's citizens pass to us? Is it Mexico's responsibility to take care of poor Americans?

So we should turn away everybody for a few bad ones? SIck and disgusting.


A few bad ones? They're all illegals, and therefore criminals.

All American Citizens have a right to be here.

Exactly. Illegal aliens do not.

Well for one, not all are from Mexico. Second, why was it our job to intervene in ANYTHING then?

It doesn't matter whether they're from Mexico or not. An illegal alien is an illegal alien, regardless of their country of origin. And I didn't say it's our job to intervene in other countries' affairs. I think the US has too much of a habit of doing that (and look where it gets us).

You are very good at name-calling and stating that I misunderstood DO's post.

You don't, however, explain where my three points about DO's post were wrong.

You seem to believe that because DO said he had no problem with immigrants we must take that a face value, even though he said anti-immigrant and racist things. Sorry, but that doesn't fly.

Quite frankly, the onus is on you to demonstrate how those remarks are inherently anti-immigrant. Yes, I saw what you bolded, but as much as you're trying to rip me for not elaborating, I have seen nothing in any of your posts that demonstrated how DO's post was definitively anti-immigrant.

I'm not the one that has something to prove, you are by virtue of being the one whose insisting that DO's somehow lying or delusional but without stating WHY beyond bolding some text that apparently is perfectly obvious to you.


Please explain what context I missed. You clearly have defended DO's post and Rush Limbaugh's 'Barack the Magic Negro' song as not racist. You imply that Imus's comments weren't racist either. I sense a pattern.

I never implied Imus' remarks were not racist. I stated that the outrage is one-sided. Imus, because he's conservative, gets the hammer dropped on his head while Sharpton, who is liberal gets a pass. I am accusing you and people like you of the kind of predjudice that says conservatives are all racists and liberals never are. I challenged you to prove me wrong by being as critical of Sharpton as you are of Limbaugh.

Really, I'm having a hard time taking your posts seriously when it seems I'm constantly having to spell things out for you to try and keep you on pace with what's being said.

And if by "sensing a pattern" you're trying to somehow imply that perhaps I'm a racist, that would be the funniest joke of all. If you only knew...

Why does the duty to take care of another country's citizens pass to us? Is it Mexico's responsibility to take care of poor Americans?
If there is a rich Mexican man, then yes, he should take care of all people, according to his means.[/b[


A few bad ones? They're all illegals, and therefore criminals.
[b]I've already answered this 10 times, at least. It is commit a small crime, or die.


Exactly. Illegal aliens do not.
That was in response to a comment that those who support reform of immigration shoulkd "Get out".


It doesn't matter whether they're from Mexico or not. An illegal alien is an illegal alien, regardless of their country of origin. And I didn't say it's our job to intervene in other countries' affairs. I think the US has too much of a habit of doing that (and look where it gets us).
They are also your fellow humans, but then some treat them like animals. I hope you are not one of those.

See bold.

The point isnt about religion.

Disagreed with your sentiment, generally agreed with the point of the discussion.

For one to call something a "sin", one must first have a religious moral code by which's definitions defying to obey said code would be sin. Without the religious aspect, such a defiance of general moral code would just be rudeness, not sinful. :p

So now we put a price on human life?

As soon as such an issue comes up, Araraukar certainly will! :D

Well thats just it...they're poor...and we're tired

Oh, Hynation, you put it better than I ever could have... XD

People who have no legal right to be here in the first place. Why is it our job to do the Mexican government's job for it?

Because people residing in the US, legally or not, are the US's concern. Pointing fingers and blame accomplishes absolutely nothing.

With the total disregard you've displayed for our border laws and national sovereignty, maybe you don't belong here yourself.

I sped on the highway today. Therefore I have broken a US law. Now if you really cared about Law so much as you do about immigration, you would be saying that I should be deported. But no, you only think I don't belong here because I don't think we should put tanks, barbed wire and mines on the border, and deport people en masse a la Nazi Germany.

You are just using law as an excuse to justify your ill-concealed hate for immigrants.

they can feed their families in their own countries

they can feed their families in their own countries

Not if they can not make a living there.

Quite frankly, the onus is on you to demonstrate how those remarks are inherently anti-immigrant. Yes, I saw what you bolded, but as much as you're trying to rip me for not elaborating, I have seen nothing in any of your posts that demonstrated how DO's post was definitively anti-immigrant.

I'm not the one that has something to prove, you are by virtue of being the one whose insisting that DO's somehow lying or delusional but without stating WHY beyond bolding some text that apparently is perfectly obvious to you.

I'm not impressed by your ability to quibble. Continuing to respond gets you nowhere if you are going to avoid the substance of the discussion.

I've already pointed out where Diatomaceous Ooze's rant was anti-immigrant, but let's go ahead and look at his comments (which you claim are completely correct) again.

They CAN come here legally and they should. I believe we should help them and have nothing against immigrants.

As I pointed out the first time, this seems based on the fallacious assumption that illegal immigrants could come here legally but simply choose to come illegally. That is just stupid.

How would some other countries feel if we suddenly decided to all rush to them? Any other country would be no where near as lenient. There all all sorts of programs to make sure that the immigrants are at least documented.

This is less than clear, but seems to be complaining not about illegal immigration, but about the prospect of immigration.


What about all the crime illegal immigration brings? What about all the drug mules that bring drugs into America? Thats a sin too. Should we help them? No wait, they're rich because the cheated our borders and managed to sell drugs in America. I have no problem with immigrants and it would be great to let them all in but would that justify all the crime and terrorism it would bring in.

As I've pointed out twice now, this is clearly an anti-immigrant statement.

It specifically says that we can't allow legal immigration because it would cause crime and terrorism.

I also love the ridiculous notion that illegal immigrants are rich drug kingpins.

How about all the hospitals that can't treat tax-paying Americans because immigrants occupy space. Should I give the immigrants my house? What about my car? They can even take my dog. Hospitals have closed down from bankrupcy.

Again, not specific to illegal immigration, but rather complains about immigrants in general.

What about the other countries? Why should we help a few countries and not all of them? Can we let all of Africa into our country? They are war-torn and children are drafted into civil wars.

Again, not complaining about the illegality of some immigration, but rather complaining about which countries immigrants come from.

Should we give up our heritage for theirs? Sure they should have the choice but should our whole society shift for theirs? Lets let some of the Native Americans practice cannabolism.


Here DO appears to equate the culture of Latin Americans with cannibalism. Nothing anti-immigrant or racist about that, right? :rolleyes:

Again, nothing about this comment is directed at illegal, as opposed to legal immigrants.

I never implied Imus' remarks were not racist. I stated that the outrage is one-sided. Imus, because he's conservative, gets the hammer dropped on his head while Sharpton, who is liberal gets a pass. I am accusing you and people like you of the kind of predjudice that says conservatives are all racists and liberals never are. I challenged you to prove me wrong by being as critical of Sharpton as you are of Limbaugh

If you agree that Imus's comments were racist, then why do you complain about them being labeled racist. What is wrong with speaking truth?

The OP pointed out something racist for which Limbaugh is responsible and I condemned it. Your defense that "Limbaugh says it isn't racist" is hardly compelling.

Point out something specific that Sharpton has said that is racist and I'll condemn it as well. That still won't excuse Limbaugh and Imus.

I love how you are all outraged about this alleged "prejudice" about conservatives, but excuse actual prejudice when it is exposed.

Really, I'm having a hard time taking your posts seriously when it seems I'm constantly having to spell things out for you to try and keep you on pace with what's being said.

This reminds me of Through the Looking Glass:

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'


And if by "sensing a pattern" you're trying to somehow imply that perhaps I'm a racist, that would be the funniest joke of all. If you only knew...

If I only knew what? Are you suggesting some reason why you cannot possibly be racist? I'd love to hear what this get out of jail free card is. I hope you aren't going to claim that you are a member of a minority so you are automatically free of racism -- because that is the kind of thinking you just got through complaining about.

Regardless, you've gotten your panties in a bunch over nothing. The pattern I sense is you claiming obviously racist and anti-immigrant statements aren't racist or anti-immigrant. Over and over again.

No, no , no, no, no! I'm not supposed to be able to agree with Cat-Tribe! THIS ISN'T HAPPENING!!! GRAAAH!
*explodes*

You are just using law as an excuse to justify your ill-concealed hate for immigrants.

You're either an idiot, or a liar, or both. I have nothing against immigrants, I am the grandson of immigrants, I am against ILLEGAL ALIENS who are not immigrants.

You're either an idiot, or a liar, or both.

I'm pretty fucking intelligent, I tell the truth enough that it gets me in trouble personally.

You can however believe what you want... I am just going by the nature and flavor of your arguments.

I have nothing against immigrants, I am the grandson of immigrants, I am against ILLEGAL ALIENS who are not immigrants.

Illegal immigrants are still immigrants. That's why, you know, they're called illegal immigrants.

I'm pretty fucking intelligent, I tell the truth enough that it gets me in trouble personally.

Well you've displayed neither in this thread. All you've done is distort everyone's views into something you can easily argue against, and baselessly accused me of "hating immigrants". I do not hate, dislike, or have any problem whatsoever with people who legally immigrate to this country and become American citizens. Illegal aliens do neither.

This is interesting. Found it somewhere.

Today’s Letter: An Openly Gay, Closeted Conservative Reader Notes A Report Vindicating Pim Fortuyn

From: [Pim admirer and fellow gay immigration reformist, soon to be Midwest educator. Please don’t use my name or e-mail—I’m openly gay but a closeted conservative. Would hate to miss out on a job opportunity if a typical leftist educator sees my name.]

Good news from Holland, multiculturalism doesn't work! Seems that Pim Fortuyn knew what he was talking about all along. You can kill the messenger but not the message. I loved The Worm in the Apple!

Dutch are 'polarised' says report By Angus Roxburgh

BBC News Online, Amsterdam

The Netherlands' example as a successful, tolerant, multicultural community has taken a dent with the publication of a parliamentary report saying Dutch society is becoming increasingly polarised, with huge ethnic ghettos and subcultures tearing the country apart.

It is an issue which has been simmering away for years, but only made the headlines two years ago when the radical politician Pim Fortuyn, who was later assassinated, called for an end to immigration.

He said immigration, especially from Muslim countries, was diluting Dutch liberal values.

The increase in the number of Muslims is raising concerns in some countries .

Now the all-party parliamentary report has reached a similar conclusion. It says the attempt to create an integrated multi-ethnic society has failed.

While most immigrants had integrated well, it said, there were also growing ghettos of foreigners from countries such as Turkey and Morocco.

Even Dutch-born "foreigners" tend to marry within their own communities and find spouses in their parents' home countries.

The report blamed successive Dutch governments for what had previously been seen as a positive policy designed to make life easier for immigrants - allowing them to be taught in their native languages at primary school.

This had merely perpetuated their alienation and prevented them from integrating into Dutch society properly, it said.

In what would mark a reversal of a 30-year-old policy, the report recommended that the country's Muslims should henceforth effectively "become Dutch".

From

"Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans strictly as members of groups rather than individuals. Racists believe that all individuals who share superficial physical characteristics are alike: as collectivists, racists think only in terms of groups. By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called 'diversity' actually perpetuate racism. Their obsession with racial group identity is inherently racist."

Ron Paul

Excellent, Mr Buchanan.

Prophets Without Honor

By Patrick J. Buchanan - August 22, 2006

In April 1968, only days after Dr. King had been assassinated and riots had erupted in 100 American cities, there arose in England to raise the alarm on the explosive issue of immigration from the Third World a hero of the war and scholar of the classics, the Tory shadow minister of state for defense, Enoch Powell.

“The supreme function of statesmanship,” Powell began, “is to provide against preventable evils. … The discussion of future grave but, with effort now, avoidable evils is the most unpopular and at the same time the most necessary occupation for the politician.”

“Only resolute and urgent action,” said Powell, could avert the “horror” unfolding on the far side of the Atlantic. As he spoke, the immigrant flow into Britain from the Commonwealth nations of Africa, Asia and the Caribbean was 50,000 a year, a trickle compared to the 1.2 million legal and illegal aliens who have been entering the United States every year for a generation.

Powell warned that if stern action were not taken to stem the tide, by 2000, 5 million to 7 million Third World people would be there.

“It is like watching a nation busily engaged in heaping up its own funeral pyre,” Powell thundered. Then he spoke the words that ended his brilliant career: “As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding; like the Roman, I seem to see ‘the River Tiber foaming with much blood.’”

Powell was instantly gone from the shadow cabinet, dropped by Edward Heath for what that future prime minister called a speech “racialist in tone, and liable to exacerbate racial tensions.”

Five years after Powell’s “Rivers of Blood” speech, French writer Jean Raspail stunned Europe with his allegory, “Le Camp Des Saints.”

Raspail described a “Last Chance Armada” of a million diseased and destitute from the hellholes of Calcutta who embark aboard a fleet of leaky and decrepit ships and steer round the Cape of Good Hope to Europe – to be taken in, or die. As the armada enters the Mediterranean and reaches the Riviera, the French government, awash in humanitarian liberalism, refuses to repel the invaders and invites them in. Around the world, the wretched of the earth watch the television reports, and wait. When the Last Chance Armada triumphs, its passengers emerge in an orgy of looting, rape and pillage to overrun the fat rich lands of the West, “the Camp of the Saints.”

Though many reviewers were repelled, the novel was a smashing success, with some comparing Raspail’s work to Camus’ “The Plague” and Swift’s “Gulliver’s Travels.” “One of the most chilling books of this generation,” wrote James J. Kilpatrick. “Our children and grandchildren may soon discover that Jean Raspail wrote not fiction, but fact.”

In 2004, Raspail surfaced in Le Figaro to accuse the French elite of treason. “La Patrie Trahie par la Republique,” the title of his essay, translates, “The Fatherland Betrayed by the Republic.”

By “the Republic,” Raspail meant not just the Fifth Republic of Mitterand and Chirac, but France’s ideology of inclusiveness rooted in the Revolution’s ideology of “liberte, egalite, fraternite.” Alluding to the waves of immigrants from Africa, the Middle East, the Caribbean and Asia, Raspail grimly asserted: “The deed is done. … All of Europe marches to its death.”

Raspail recalled the 1974 threat of Algerian President Houari Boumedienne: “No amount of atomic bombs will be able to dam up the tidal wave comprising human beings in their millions which one day will leave the southernmost and poor part of the world, to swamp the relatively open spaces of the wealthy Northern Hemisphere, in search of survival.”

Europe denounced and dismissed both men as racists. Now we learn that 19 of those captured plotting to blow up 10 airliners over the Atlantic were British-born Pakistanis. The suicide bombers of the London subway were British-born Asians. Richard Reid’s father was Jamaican. Alienated, he was drawn to an ultra-radical mosque before attempting mass murder over the Atlantic.

Race riots have since plagued the industrial cities of Northern England. In France last summer, thousands of French citizens of North African descent rioted and pillaged in the banlieus of Paris and 300 other cities, until President Chirac, after 12 days, finally declared a national emergency. Zacarias Moussaoui, the “20th hijacker,” was a French citizen. The Madrid bombers were immigrants or the children of immigrants, as was the daylight murderer of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh.

The 9-11 terrorists plotted mass murders in Munich, Arizona and Delray Beach, Fla. President Bush says they hate democracy.

No, Mr. President, they hate us.
Powell and Raspail were ostracized for what they said and wrote. Their stories are related in my new book, “State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America.” Time to revisit the question: Were these men false prophets rightly reviled, or prophets without honor in their own countries?

RON PAUL FOR PRESIDENT 2008!

Well you've displayed neither in this thread.

Right. How about you tell me even one incident of my being dishonest, in this thread, or something I've said that is provably stupid. Instead of just blathering that I am so.

All you've done is distort everyone's views into something you can easily argue against, and baselessly accused me of "hating immigrants". I do not hate, dislike, or have any problem whatsoever with people who legally immigrate to this country and become American citizens. Illegal aliens do neither.

...illegal immigrants are still immigrants. You hate them. Ergo you hate immigrants. This isn't rocket science.

Look at it this way.

Immigrants are immigrants who have gone through the red tape and bureaucracy to get into the country.

Illegal immigrants are immigrants who have not gone through the red tape and bureaucracy.

How, exactly, are illegal immigrants more likely to steal your jobs/create crime/spread disease/cause the Apocalypse than normal immigrants? Is it because 'oh, they broke one law, so they must all be immoral scum'? I know the dislike of immigrants on legality grounds has been discussed before, but if you don't hate normal immigrants, I fail to see how you can hate illegal immigrants other than the fact that zomg, they broke a law.

...illegal immigrants are still immigrants. You hate them. Ergo you hate immigrants. This isn't rocket science.

Legal immigrants are American citizens, illegal aliens are not, thus they have no right to be here. It's not a matter of "hating them", I don't sit around all day seething about how much I despise illegal aliens, it's a matter of not liking it when people illegally invade this country and live here taking jobs and such without even having any legal right to be here in the first place. Being against illegal aliens does not equal being against all immigrants, and if anyone seeks proof of your dishonesty and disingenuous distorting of people's posts to "win" the argument, they need look no further than your constant inaccurate equating of illegal aliens and legal immigrants, and that being against one MUST mean you "hate all immigrants". Illegal aliens and legal immigrants who moved here legally and became American citizens are not the same thing. This isn't rocket science.:rolleyes:

How, exactly, are illegal immigrants more likely to steal your jobs/create crime/spread disease/cause the Apocalypse than normal immigrants?

I didn't say anything about them creating crime, spreading disease, or causing "The Apocalypse" (dun dun duuunnnn), but as far as stealing jobs go, well they have no legal right to be here, so therefore any job they have is technically "stolen", as their very presence in this country is illegitimate and their employer has illegally hired them.

Is it because 'oh, they broke one law, so they must all be immoral scum'?

I know the dislike of immigrants on legality grounds has been discussed before, but if you don't hate normal immigrants, I fail to see how you can hate illegal immigrants other than the fact that zomg, they broke a law.

They are in this country illegally. Not a matter of them being "immoral scum", not a matter of hating them, wanting them murdered, thinking they're going to annihilate Western civilization, etc., just a matter of them having no legal right to be in this country. Not so hard to understand, I don't think. :rolleyes:

I don't hate them, I just don't think they should be allowed to live here illegally.

Yeah. For one thing, their tendrils are longer.http://www.dallasartsrevue.com/members/P/AnnaPalmer/Tendrils.jpg

Random google search.;)

I don't hate them, I just don't think they should be allowed to live here illegally.

So, you would then support a general amnesty?

Fact: money sent into Mexico by illegal Mexicans and legal migrants is a huge source of revenue for Mexico. Logically, we can assume that the Mexican government likes things the way they are, and would attempt to stop any changes to the status quo.

Fact: many US business owners make a lot of money by hiring illegals. Logically, we can assume that these people like things the way they are, and would attempt to stop any changes to the status quo. Now, many of these people are rich, and have a lot of power. So they can buy lobbyists and 'make campaign contributions' in order to keep these things the same. Consequently, the politicians also like things the way they are.

People's opinions about illegal immigration are secondary to the problems surrounding immigration.

Any solutions for immigration problems must take these two facts into account. No one is going to fine the big companies. No one is going to make the border less porous. No one is going to do anything because those who can do something are making money off the current situation.

Legal immigrants are American citizens, illegal aliens are not,

Do you think by calling them "aliens" you can erase the fact that even people who share your view call them "immigrants"?

thus they have no right to be here.

Heh, non-citizens have no right to be in the US? Interesting rule, I wonder where you go that from.

It's not a matter of "hating them", I don't sit around all day seething about how much I despise illegal aliens, it's a matter of not liking it when people illegally invade this country

The fact that you say they "invade" the country not only shows gross hyperbole but reveals that yes, you obviously have malice and animosity for these people. Unless you wouldn't normally have any malice towards people who actually would invade the nation, which I doubt.

Being against illegal aliens does not equal being against all immigrants, and if anyone seeks proof of your dishonesty and disingenuous distorting of people's posts to "win" the argument, they need look no further than your constant inaccurate equating of illegal aliens and legal immigrants

Both are immigrants. Do you deny this?

Illegal aliens and legal immigrants who moved here legally and became American citizens are not the same thing.

Why not? Aren't they both "invading" the nation?


I didn't say anything about them creating crime, spreading disease, or causing "The Apocalypse" (dun dun duuunnnn), but as far as stealing jobs go, well they have no legal right to be here, so therefore any job they have is technically "stolen", as their very presence in this country is illegitimate and their employer has illegally hired them.

You apparently do not know what theft is. No surprise, you think immigration is an invasion.

They are in this country illegally. Not a matter of them being "immoral scum", not a matter of hating them, wanting them murdered, thinking they're going to annihilate Western civilization, etc., just a matter of them having no legal right to be in this country. Not so hard to understand, I don't think. :rolleyes:

I don't hate them, I just don't think they should be allowed to live here illegally.

Yeah and most Germans didn't hate Jews. Just thought they shouldn't be allowed in the fatherland. Hence deportation. Nothing hard to understand about it.

So, you would then support a general amnesty?

Fact: money sent into Mexico by illegal Mexicans and legal migrants is a huge source of revenue for Mexico.

...2% of their GDP.

Not "huge."

...2% of their GDP.

Not "huge."

Odd. I was under the impression that it was a substantial amount of money, second only to oil exports in terms of foreign money going into the economy.

Google tells me that we are both correct:
http://wais.stanford.edu/Mexico/mexico_remittancesfromus52003.html

Remittances are now approaching 2 per cent of gross domestic product, second only to oil exports (about $4.9bn) and the maquiladora - the assembly-for-export sector - profits ($4.57bn) as a source of foreign currency. Oil, maquiladoras, remittances indicate an almost total dependence on the US.

I would argue that it is still enough of a cash cow that the Mexican government would like to keep things as they are, or try to introduce more Mexicans into the USA.

EDIT: post number 1984. Big brother is watching this post.

"anti-immigrant nativism"
You're calling people not liking the fact that CRIMINALS are getting into this country and getting more benefits than legal immigrints that spent thousands of dollars and many years to come here illegally wrong? It's like you're smacking the hand of people that chose to come here the right way by waving the fact that they shouldn't have followed the right way and that people who came illegally should get more benefits! Legalizing and granting illegal immagrints amnesty is simply wrong. I am half tempted to leave the country and return illegally just so that I can get some of these nice benefits. People don't realize that these people are criminals and deserve to be imprisoned!
Illegal Immigration=:upyours:

E-mail me any thoughts at aaronha@charter.net

Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans strictly as members of groups rather than individuals.

The human psyche is unable to deal with collectives larger than about 300 individuals. Anything beyond that becomes an abstract, hence treating certain (distuingishing features vary depending on what we're talking about) groups as collectives of homogenous individuals that can be 'summed up' as one person, is the best the human mind can come up with, though we're able to distinguish between the group and individuals in the group that we personally know.

For example, my mental image of Americans (citizens of USA, you nitpickers :p) is that they're all dumber than my navel fluff. Yet I know quite a few wonderful and intelligent people who do not conform to my image of the group they belong in, so my mental image is "all Americans are dumber than my navel fluff, except for the people I know". Stupid, right? Even I know it's stupid, but I find myself unable to shake off the image nevertheless.

That said, I'm pro-LEGAL immigrants (and I don't live in the States, just so you know), but as long as the illegal immigrants seek to integrate in the society to the best of their ability and can prove themselves capable of doing so (learning the language, behaviour code, laws), I'm cautiously pro-legalizing them.

it's a matter of not liking it when people illegally invade this country

Oh, like USA uses its army to invade other countries? Try telling that to George "Idiot" Bush! :D

You apparently do not know what theft is. No surprise, you think immigration is an invasion.

I suggest you look up the meaning of "trolling" and "flame-baiting" in some online internet behaviour code dictionary. Why are you so keen to insult that one writer personally? Respect their right to have a different opinion - attack their message, not him/her personally.

Do you think by calling them "aliens" you can erase the fact that even people who share your view call them "immigrants"?

Semantics. I am calling them illegal aliens because it's what they are. If you insist on calling them illegal immigrants, go ahead, the point is that they are illegal.

Aren't they both "invading" the nation?

No. Legal immigrants are immigrating legally and becoming citizens of this nation. Illegals are intruding illegally, violating our laws and our national sovereignty, and taking jobs that they are not legally entitled to.

Yeah and most Germans didn't hate Jews. Just thought they shouldn't be allowed in the fatherland. Hence deportation. Nothing hard to understand about it.

There is a very long way from deporting people who sneak into your country illegally and putting your own citizens in concentration camps where they are murdered en masse.

Oh, like USA uses its army to invade other countries? Try telling that to George "Idiot" Bush!

If you think the war in Iraq is an unprovoked and unlawful invasion and occupation in violation of international law, not to mention a colossal waste of life and resources, and that "President" Bush's behavior borders on treason against the American people, you'll get no argument from me.

You're calling people not liking the fact that CRIMINALS are getting into this country and getting more benefits than legal immigrints that spent thousands of dollars and many years to come here illegally wrong? It's like you're smacking the hand of people that chose to come here the right way by waving the fact that they shouldn't have followed the right way and that people who came illegally should get more benefits! Legalizing and granting illegal immagrints amnesty is simply wrong. I am half tempted to leave the country and return illegally just so that I can get some of these nice benefits. People don't realize that these people are criminals and deserve to be imprisoned!

Amen. Although imprisoning illegal aliens (woops, illegal immigrants) is a little extreme. It'd be more appropriate to just deport them all, since they're not supposed to be here in the first place.

Amen. Although imprisoning illegal aliens (woops, illegal immigrants) is a little extreme. It'd be more appropriate to just deport them all, since they're not supposed to be here in the first place.
Let's inject a touch of reality. We'll never deport 12 million illegals. Our best course of action is to figure out which are undesirable and deport them. But before we even think of doing that, we need to figure out how to keep them from walking right back into the United States

If you think the war in Iraq is an unprovoked and unlawful invasion and occupation in violation of international law, not to mention a colossal waste of life and resources, and that "President" Bush's behavior borders on treason against the American people, you'll get no argument from me.

Good. :D *adds you to the mental 'exception list'*