NationStates Jolt Archive

As the posters on this forum have indicated, many are dissatisfied with the situation in Iraq. I would like to hear what people think the US, the Iraqi government, and the rest of the world should do to resolve it, or at least to minimize further damage.

Just as a side, please do not reference Wikipedia. I use it, and believe it is as reliable as most people, but anyone can edit it, and there are better sources.

Yes?

Yes?
I'm not really sure what that means. I am going to assume it means I did not have enough in the initial post, because it's probably true.

Right now, the United States and several other countries have a military presence in Iraq, mostly keeping the peace. Although there is no existing opposing military force, insurgents have made this occupation a war, or at least a conflict. In November, the Iraq Study Group issued its suggestions, which involved training the Iraqi forces more, setting benchmarks the Iraqi government must meet, and ask for aid from Iran and Syria, among other things. Other people have said that the US should cut its losses and just pull out as fast as it can, while still others have said the US should send more troops, and "surge" the insurgency before it has a time to strike back. I personally believe the 73 recommendations of the ISG should be followed, but I am interested in what other people think. Only three or four opinions concerning this have been in the media (well, NPR and the Washington Post), so I would like to see if there are others.

As the posters on this forum have indicated, many are dissatisfied with the situation in Iraq. I would like to hear what people think the US, the Iraqi government, and the rest of the world should do to resolve it, or at least to minimize further damage.

Just as a side, please do not reference Wikipedia. I use it, and believe it is as reliable as most people, but anyone can edit it, and there are better sources.

Get the Hell out?.....

Invite them all over for a barbecue.

Everyone loves a barbecue.

created the mess, now clean it up.

Invite them all over for a barbecue.

Everyone loves a barbecue.

Not a good idea with pork hot dogs...perhaps a beef/vegetable substitute?

Invite them all over for a barbecue.

Everyone loves a barbecue.

I can has cheezburger?

Get the Hell out?.....

Sounds good to me.

I'm not really sure what that means. I am going to assume it means I did not have enough in the initial post, because it's probably true.


I'm not sure what it means either. I was just being a vague arsehole, and it worked.:)

My suggestion would be to withdraw immediately. One has to fight a 'War on Terror' with counter-terrorist activities. You and I (or the U.S of A) can't fight terrorists with an open war.

pull out and let the iraqis kill each other.

Move the troops to the north in Kurdish lands, to prevent Turkey from invading, and just let the rest of the country fend for itself.

Blame Canada and head south to Mexico

:mad:OH NO!! you're not blaming this mess on Canada!!

Let's go to the movies! Pirates 3 is out!

:mad:OH NO!! you're not blaming this mess on Canada!!

How bout just Quebec then?

Let's do what we do best...blame Canada and head south to Mexico.
Exactly! It will be easy to believe, with Canada's nefarious human rights record. The only problem may come when the rest of the world sees that all of Iraq's infrastructure was built on America's credit card.

I can has cheezburger?

http://i0005.photobucket.com/albums/0005/icanhascheezburger/128244139417656250_gimmebackmyfr.jpg

skip the boring part and have Iraq's neighbors send in peace keepers (hopefully it will burn some of the fire out of Iran, 2 birds with one stone:))

or we could just ignore it like Korea or Malaysia what ever gets you off

What to do in Iraq

the Polka.

Why would we surrender when we are so close to having sufficient IA and IP to do the job mostly on their own? 300,000 personnel and counting is not an insignificant force. We can look to how they performed during the Samarra bombings to illustrate where their true loyalty lies, the central government. When the shit hit the fan, that's who they fought for. They didn't break along the religious divide as many pessimists predicted would happen without a doubt. This shows that our work is not in vain. With enough battle-hardened IA, they will have the monopoly on violence, and they will control the country. If the IA can hold onto the country with minimal U.S. ground support then we will be able to dedicate many air assets as it requires a much lesser commitment. The answer is to give us more time to train and mentor the IA and IP so that a stable Iraq will be able to survive for many years.

How a-boot just Quebec then eh?

fixed!

SNIP

I'd laugh my arse off if your on the bottom of the page again :p

but yeah point you may have not seeing as how either way we will have Iran's sticky fingers in there, we may as well make them involved in a way that makes them the goodies instead of asshats causing a ruckus

I'd laugh my arse off if your on the bottom of the page again :p
:(

but yeah point you may have not seeing as how either way we will have Iran's sticky fingers in there, we may as well make them involved in a way that makes them the goodies instead of asshats causing a ruckus

Not involved is good for me. Any way you look at it they will unbalance the power of government. If we allow them to help we just give them more access to mold Iraq the way that they want. And if, when we leave, they try anything more serious, well, air power's a bitch.

we need to get out as soon as possible.

we won 3 years ago. time to go home.

what were our GOALS for iraq?

1) neutralize their WMD

DONE. easy to do since they didnt exist but still, its DONE

2) depose saddam hussein.

DONE. he cant come back to power

3) install a democratic government.

DONE.

our problem is with the extremely stupid and evil 4th goal..

4) MAKE IRAQ A TERRORISM MAGNET SO THAT IRAQIS AND US MILITARY PERSONEL GET KILLED INSTEAD OF US CITIZENS.

this brainless horrifying goal has been reached and is now revealed to be a very bad idea.

it needs to be dropped today.

so now we can go home. all our goals are reached. as soon as the iraqi govt requests us to leave, we pack up and go home.

Leave the country when peace and growth conditions have been established. After invading a country "for its own good" the least the US can do is not to leave it worse than they found it.

There is only one real solution.

Find a strongman. Arm him to the teeth. Let him do what he needs to do to bring order. Declare victory. Get out. Keep a better collar on our new dog than we did with Saddam so he stays in his borders.

There is only one real solution.

Find a strongman. Arm him to the teeth. Let him do what he needs to do to bring order. Declare victory. Get out. Keep a better collar on our new dog than we did with Saddam so he stays in his borders.

Like Rambo?

There is only one real solution.

Find a strongman. Arm him to the teeth. Let him do what he needs to do to bring order. Declare victory. Get out. Keep a better collar on our new dog than we did with Saddam so he stays in his borders.

Why do you think that?

If you don't want to stand behind our troops, try standing in front of them!!!!

If you don't want to stand behind our troops, try standing in front of them!!!!

Shut up.

If you don't want to stand behind our troops, try standing in front of them!!!!

YWTT

Shut up.

I second this.

Annex Canada.

Dissolve the Iraqi government, then leave. That way there won't be any group with overwhelming superiority of force.

Dissolve the Iraqi government, then leave. That way there won't be any group with overwhelming superiority of force.

Power-vacuums don't last forever. A group will gain superiority, after horrendous bloodshed, and they will most likely not be friendly to us.

Annex Canada.

Haha, yes! We haven't added any new stars to the flag in a while...better watch out Canada, we're coming!

Canada is always to blame!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111DAMN CANADIANS:upyours:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!












JKing Canadains rule!!!1:fluffle:

who the hell has been friendly to us in the middle east?

Why do you think that?

More Iraqis have died per year under US rule than under Saddam. Under Saddam, if you weren't a criminal or a treasoner or the supporter of a criminal or treasoner you were safe. You could walk the streets anytime. The kids could play without supervision. People of various beliefs lived together in peace.

There is a reason Saddam ruled as he did. It was a practical way to rule.

We shouldn't forget that Bush 1 gave Saddam permission to invade Kuwait. Then changed his mind after public opinion turned against the action. Until then we owned Saddam as a balance toward Iran. Now we own no one. No one can control and bring peace. And Iran is totally free to do whatever it wants with no control.

A strongman that we have a collar on would be better for everyone.

Canada is always to blame!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111DAMN CANADIANS:upyours:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And I thought it was the fault of the French.

Get the fuck out, now.

We won't improve things by staying. As a cursory glance at the past four years indicates.

1). When US shifts blame to us, blame it on Quebec.
2). Give Quebec their sovereignity.

Everyone (except Quebec, oh well) is happy. :p

:mad:OH NO!! you're not blaming this mess on Canada!!Dude, you do realize your post is like an open invitation to blame it all on Canada.. eh?

thanks to you.. my money is now on poll option #6

Canada should blame you :D :D :eek: :D

I propose the U.S. and its allies leave immediately. Our presence only prolongs and exacerbates the bloodshed, further de-stabilizes the region, and further inflames anti-Western sentiment. Moreover, the majority of Iraqis want us gone. Our presence is doing nothing but getting Americans, Iraqis, and others killed, and bolstering bin Laden. I say we leave without further delay.

Get the fuck out, now.

We won't improve things by staying. As a cursory glance at the past four years indicates.

Quoted for 100% truth.

Power-vacuums don't last forever. A group will gain superiority, after horrendous bloodshed, and they will most likely not be friendly to us.

But if there is no power structure to take control of that gives any party legitimate power, then there's hardly any chance that anyone will sacrifice themselves in the attempt to take over the country. After all, decentralized Ireland took centuries for England to conquer, and that's just as applicable to internal power-seekers.

Invite them all over for a barbecue.

Everyone loves a barbecue.

Mmm, succulent roast beast bbq. Yum yum, I'm there with ribs and burgers and shawarmas.

I'm partial to sit in a corner and cry. All the while pretend it's happening to someone else. Though it seems that only works on personal problems. But the barbecue sounds nice.

More Iraqis have died per year under US rule than under Saddam. Under Saddam, if you weren't a criminal or a treasoner or the supporter of a criminal or treasoner you were safe. You could walk the streets anytime. The kids could play without supervision. People of various beliefs lived together in peace.

There is a reason Saddam ruled as he did. It was a practical way to rule.

We shouldn't forget that Bush 1 gave Saddam permission to invade Kuwait. Then changed his mind after public opinion turned against the action. Until then we owned Saddam as a balance toward Iran. Now we own no one. No one can control and bring peace. And Iran is totally free to do whatever it wants with no control.

A strongman that we have a collar on would be better for everyone.

The situation is not uncontrollable. Look to Lebanon for a recent example. It was much the same situation with war between many groups of different religions and they were able to form a unified government. Or look to Bosnia, they have a democratic government after 3 sects had civil war and genocide.

Whatever happens, it's not going to be pretty...

Look at the dozens of postcolonial countries in Africa, look at 1970's Cambodia.

What I think is we need specialists on Iraq, contemporary Islam, the Middle East in general analyzing the situation. (both Iraqi and foreigners?).

What I think is going on in Iraq is NOT "There be terrorists! Terrorism is gonna spread and it's all about us and how they're going to kill our children and pets and keep our oil!" 1500 years into Islam, it certainly seems that there's a "reformation" movement throughout the whole religion in the Middle East (I don't know anything about Islam in Indonesia *shrug*) between a slightly secular version, a traditional view, and fundamentalism.

The US has a long history of involvement in the Middle East (since 1801.). I think the US and other countries should try to get out of the region. The US ever changing support of different rulers in the region kind of confuses people/ screws them over.

After all this rambling: Find competent people to try to guess what'll happen, then try to get out at the best time for Iraqis and Americans.

Oh, let Iraqi refugees into the United States- that'll show things from their perspective and show what the war's doing to ordinary citizens

http://i0005.photobucket.com/albums/0005/icanhascheezburger/128244139417656250_gimmebackmyfr.jpg

lol!

I am an American Infantryman. In less than a month I will be deployed to the great Sand Box. Here is my perspective, in short novel form. :)

The reasons why we originally invaded Iraq can be debated endlessly. Frankly, they are not relevant to anyone but historians. What must be discussed instead is the CURRENT situation, what is happening on the ground.

Fact: Militant Islam is a common movement accross the world. Estimates range between 10% (being VERY conservative) and 20% of Muslims in the world support the Militant Islamofascist agenda. Many more than this are anti-west, and agree with them in principle, if not in tactics. This makes them a very credible threat. Nearly 2 Billion muslims in the world (http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/results.htm) makes 20% of this (or 200 million, for you math geniuses out there) a HUGE number. America, for perspective, has a population of approximately 300 million.

Fact: Militant Islamic groups have chosen Iraq for their battleground. This is perhaps the most important truth. Islamists from all over are joining the battle there. In war, you do not always have the luxury of choosing your fights. If the enemy ambushes you in a crap hole, you fight in a crap hole. You can't say "Well, I'm pretty darn uncomfortable here, so can we move to that nice green pasture over yonder?"

Don't take my word for it: Ask them! You'll find it plastered on every website, spouted on every children's show in Palistine. They want to institute a new Caliphate in the heart of ancient Babylon. For those who don't know, the Caliph is the ruler of all Islam everywhere, across the world. There hasn't been a Caliph since shortly after Muhammed's death.

For those who believe all the above, but are just tired: Believe me, I understand. War is not fun. Of all spectators, soldiers hate war the most. This is not a fast or easy thing. Take Nazi germany, for example. After the surrender of the government, the military occupation "was a huge and diverse undertaking spanning almost eleven years" (http://www.army.mil/cmh/books/wwii/Occ-GY/)

Keep in mind this was a secular power who had SURRENDERED. Most of their strength was gone, and yet idealists held out for over a decade. You also did not have Russians, Italians, and Japanese jumping the border to fight us. In Iraq we are fighting a religious fanaticism. Its not the Fuhrer telling you to do this: Its the Almighty Allah, creator and ruler of the Universe! Pretty powerful.

In conclusion, you cannot ignore the danger of the Islamists. They pose a serious threat to Muslims and non-Muslims alike. If we retreat, they gain victory. It is only through victory that you can defeat a foe. No evil force in history has every simply chosen to fade away on its own.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men to do nothing.

Fact: Militant Islamic groups have chosen Iraq for their battleground. This is perhaps the most important truth. Islamists from all over are joining the battle there. In war, you do not always have the luxury of choosing your fights. If the enemy ambushes you in a crap hole, you fight in a crap hole. You can't say "Well, I'm pretty darn uncomfortable here, so can we move to that nice green pasture over yonder?"

I agree with the idea that we (meaning the US) should not pull out immediately. However, I do take issue with the statement "Militant Islamic groups have chosen Iraq for their battleground." The US, for better or worse, started the war. Militant Muslim fundamentalists came in, or at least began fighting, after the US dismantled the Iraqi government. I think if a stable Iraqi government can be created, the other problems will solve themselves, at least in Iraq. The trick is creating a government stronger than the current one but less tyrannical than the former.

The situation is not uncontrollable. Look to Lebanon for a recent example. It was much the same situation with war between many groups of different religions and they were able to form a unified government. Or look to Bosnia, they have a democratic government after 3 sects had civil war and genocide.

Yes, let's look at Lebanon. One of the most stable and only majority Christian nation of the former Ottoman Empire. Then with the establishment of Israel, radical Palestinians were pushed in. 60 years (ok not exactly) of instability. As I remember it was only a few months ago that Israel bombed the whaley out of Christian villages in the south. They even totally destroyed a 1500 year old Orthodox monastery. And wasn't it just this week that the Lebanese army shot it out in a refugee camp? After 60 years you want this to be our model?

In the former Yugoslavia the solution was to divide up the land. To keep it together would have called for another Tito. We could divide the land in Iraq if the land were even. But it's not even. The oil is concentrated in just a few regions. Wars are over religion and money. Iraq now is over religion. Divide up the land and it will be over money. The solution is to clone a Saddam and turn our heads away.

Two things can be done in Iraq to have stability and security. The 1st is to prop up a secular tyrant worse than Saddam. The 2nd is to double or triple the amount of troops on the ground while continuing to train Iraqis and supporting the government until they can handle things on their own. Anything sort of those two things is just playing games and delaying something horrible to come. And neither of those things are going to happen because it isn't the "politically" smart thing to do.

Lorethain,


We are out of money. We are short on soldiers. We are out of support. The world is against us. (The start does matter in this area. Notice there isn't so much protest about Afghanistan) Whatever we do puts another scoop of coal (or oil) on the fire of radicalism. We stay we lose, we leave we lose. We stepped into the middle of a tar pit and are sinking fast.

Yes, we set up a situation where if we pull out the radicals will take over. However, if we set up a democratic government the radicals will win in a fair vote. And what happened when the people we didn't want won a fair election among the Palestinians? The US has shown that it has no interest in a fair election in the Mid East if we can't guarantee our choice wins.

So let's make sure our man wins. There is only one way to solve the problem. Go back to what we had. A totally controlled strong man that will kill who he needs to kill to end the fighting. But yet one we keep on a short leash as we did Saddam.

Such a plan is an American tradition.

Fact: Militant Islamic groups have chosen Iraq for their battleground. This is perhaps the most important truth.

NO.

YOU picked Iraq.

Saddam had no global islamist/caliphatist agenda. His support for Palestinian militants/terrorists was because of his Arab hero image.

Salafis of AQ variety had no significant presence in Iraq prior to US toppling of the regime.

And don't give this shit about Iraqis dying under Saddam. Plenty more people die elsewhere in the world everyday due to entrirely preventable causes and US doesn't give a shit.


Islamists from all over are joining the battle there. In war, you do not always have the luxury of choosing your fights. If the enemy ambushes you in a crap hole, you fight in a crap hole. You can't say "Well, I'm pretty darn uncomfortable here, so can we move to that nice green pasture over yonder?"

That is EXACTLY what you did when faced with the choice of taking on entrenched islamists in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

You did not have the stomach to take them there.

Just like how a bully picks on the passerby and beats the shit out of him, when he could not take on the real people who challenge him, you picked on Iraq cause you thought it was "doable".

There hasn't been a Caliph since shortly after Muhammed's death.

You fail in history too.

There were MANY caliphs after Muhammed's death. Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman etc and the list goes on. There was a caliphate in Baghdad itself until Hulagu Khan invaded.


In conclusion, you cannot ignore the danger of the Islamists. They pose a serious threat to Muslims and non-Muslims alike. If we retreat, they gain victory. It is only through victory that you can defeat a foe. No evil force in history has every simply chosen to fade away on its own.

NONE of this takes away the FACT that this mess is entrirely of your own making. And it is you who have been making all the profit out of this. Other companies cannot even compete in the bidding.

Now suddenly, this has become a "world's problem" and we have to clean up your mess.

The reasons why we originally invaded Iraq can be debated endlessly. Frankly, they are not relevant to anyone but historians. What must be discussed instead is the CURRENT situation, what is happening on the ground.

I agree. We'll have to hold off on that part until we're out.

Fact: Militant Islam is a common movement accross the world. Estimates range between 10% (being VERY conservative) and 20% of Muslims in the world support the Militant Islamofascist agenda. Many more than this are anti-west, and agree with them in principle, if not in tactics. This makes them a very credible threat. Nearly 2 Billion muslims in the world (http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/results.htm) makes 20% of this (or 200 million, for you math geniuses out there) a HUGE number. America, for perspective, has a population of approximately 300 million.

Holy shit, these numbers are fake. There are 2 billion Christians...
And According to Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam):

"Commonly cited estimates of the Muslim population in 2007, range from 900 million to 1.3 billion."

Second, sympathizers soldiers do not make. Come on now, most people here agree with/disagree with Israel's right to be a state, but how many are going over there to fight for/against them? Come on now.

Fact: Militant Islamic groups have chosen Iraq for their battleground. This is perhaps the most important truth. Islamists from all over are joining the battle there. In war, you do not always have the luxury of choosing your fights. If the enemy ambushes you in a crap hole, you fight in a crap hole. You can't say "Well, I'm pretty darn uncomfortable here, so can we move to that nice green pasture over yonder?"

I think the US started the mess there.

Don't take my word for it: Ask them! You'll find it plastered on every website, spouted on every children's show in Palistine. They want to institute a new Caliphate in the heart of ancient Babylon. For those who don't know, the Caliph is the ruler of all Islam everywhere, across the world. There hasn't been a Caliph since shortly after Muhammed's death.

This is just wrong. The Ottomans were a caliphate for a long time.

In conclusion, you cannot ignore the danger of the Islamists. They pose a serious threat to Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

Islamists??

If we retreat, they gain victory. It is only through victory that you can defeat a foe. No evil force in history has every simply chosen to fade away on its own.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men to do nothing.

Um, you DO realize that you can't shoot an idea dead right?

-------------------------------------------------------------

OMFGWTFBBQ!

to the sad american rifleman: YOU are being lied to!

Goethe once wrote: "there is no greater slaves than those that mistakenly think they are free"

the way I see it is that a few handy businessmen and their lackeys are turning on the squeeze, and help everybody into believing their old peeves was what caused it, thus handily confusing everyone, distracting all attention from the fact that THEY ARE PORKING ALL THE BEEF and causing death and famine in places where we conveniently cannot see it... sounds like a WWII story yet? it gets better...

all that remaining unsaid, for everyone's happy two cents, I would prefer a good barbeque.. and those Muslin are devils with a good Köfte or Kabab, why does everything has to come in BURGER-shape?

The emissary of Groot-Mokum has spoken

PS: YES, you CAN have cheese and ketchup on your Kabab! *looks away in pure disgust*

NO.

YOU picked Iraq.

Saddam had no global islamist/caliphatist agenda. His support for Palestinian militants/terrorists was because of his Arab hero image.

Salafis of AQ variety had no significant presence in Iraq prior to US toppling of the regime.

And don't give this shit about Iraqis dying under Saddam. Plenty more people die elsewhere in the world everyday due to entrirely preventable causes and US doesn't give a shit.



That is EXACTLY what you did when faced with the choice of taking on entrenched islamists in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

You did not have the stomach to take them there.

Just like how a bully picks on the passerby and beats the shit out of him, when he could not take on the real people who challenge him, you picked on Iraq cause you thought it was "doable".



You fail in history too.

There were MANY caliphs after Muhammed's death. Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman etc and the list goes on. There was a caliphate in Baghdad itself until Hulagu Khan invaded.



NONE of this takes away the FACT that this mess is entrirely of your own making. And it is you who have been making all the profit out of this. Other companies cannot even compete in the bidding.

Now suddenly, this has become a "world's problem" and we have to clean up your mess.

:eek:

You ROCK.
*bows*

For those who believe all the above, but are just tired: Believe me, I understand. War is not fun. Of all spectators, soldiers hate war the most. This is not a fast or easy thing. Take Nazi germany, for example. After the surrender of the government, the military occupation "was a huge and diverse undertaking spanning almost eleven years" (http://www.army.mil/cmh/books/wwii/Occ-GY/)

I don't recall insurgencies springing up when we defeated Germany or Japan in WWII. Quite different than what is going on in Iraq I'd say.

Let's buy the whole of each country a round of stout, and keep them coming, and the first nation to pass out drunk loses...

Let's buy the whole of each country a round of stout, and keep them coming, and the first nation to pass out drunk loses...I like your idea. *bows*

Let's buy the whole of each country a round of stout, and keep them coming, and the first nation to pass out drunk loses...

Either this or LG's pie fight idea on fighting wars. Both sound like fun. :)

Yes, let's look at Lebanon. One of the most stable and only majority Christian nation of the former Ottoman Empire. Then with the establishment of Israel, radical Palestinians were pushed in. 60 years (ok not exactly) of instability. As I remember it was only a few months ago that Israel bombed the whaley out of Christian villages in the south. They even totally destroyed a 1500 year old Orthodox monastery. And wasn't it just this week that the Lebanese army shot it out in a refugee camp? After 60 years you want this to be our model?
The country is a success. Look at the extreme violence of it's earlier year and the relative peace of today. It was only the war with Israel when violence took hold there. The refugee camp is an isolated incident and you know it. Stop bullshitting.

The country is a success. Look at the extreme violence of it's earlier year and the relative peace of today. It was only the war with Israel when violence took hold there. The refugee camp is an isolated incident and you know it. Stop bullshitting.

How long do you give peace before you declare success? Lebanon has had few periods of independent peace since 1948. It did have relative peace under the suppression of Syria. Syria sort of acted as the Saddam of Lebanon, doing anything and everything to maintain the peace. Then when they withdrew Israel bombed without discretion under the same theory with slightly different tactics. A few months of relative peace and we have more fighting. The Christian villages of the south still don't have basic resources. In most the majority of the population have become refugees themselves, living in the poor areas of Beirut and Tripoli. That in itself is breeding more frustration and hate. Frustration and hate aren't signs of stability.

The government has shown only a slightly better success than the government of Iraq. It's a situation that can explode at any time. It almost did with the assassinations of the last few years.

I'm sorry but you will have to look to the strongmen to find stability and safety for the populous in the Mid East.

How long do you give peace before you declare success? Lebanon has had few periods of independent peace since 1948. It did have relative peace under the suppression of Syria. Syria sort of acted as the Saddam of Lebanon, doing anything and everything to maintain the peace. Then when they withdrew Israel bombed without discretion under the same theory with slightly different tactics. A few months of relative peace and we have more fighting. The Christian villages of the south still don't have basic resources. In most the majority of the population have become refugees themselves, living in the poor areas of Beirut and Tripoli. That in itself is breeding more frustration and hate. Frustration and hate aren't signs of stability.
Okay, if violence means failure, then the U.S. is a failure state. Then, during the Gulf War, the entire west was filled with failure states. There is no civil war and a few short bursts of outside conflict (mostly caused by Iran). The refugees that are in Lebanon are not Lebanese. They are Palestinian.
The government has shown only a slightly better success than the government of Iraq. It's a situation that can explode at any time. It almost did with the assassinations of the last few years.
Any situation could explode at any time. It is not a sign of failure.

I'm sorry but you will have to look to the strongmen to find stability and safety for the populous in the Mid East.
Cause that worked real well. Iran-Iraq War. Iraq invading Kuwait. Saddam gassing Kurds. Iran taking prisoners. Thats real fucking stable.

Okay, if violence means failure, then the U.S. is a failure state. Then, during the Gulf War, the entire west was filled with failure states. There is no civil war and a few short bursts of outside conflict (mostly caused by Iran). The refugees that are in Lebanon are not Lebanese. They are Palestinian.

Any situation could explode at any time. It is not a sign of failure.


Cause that worked real well. Iran-Iraq War. Iraq invading Kuwait. Saddam gassing Kurds. Iran taking prisoners. Thats real fucking stable.

At the time of the Civil War, War of Northern Aggression, the US was a failed state and in many ways has never recovered. The south still has an inferiority complex. It shows itself in the "everyone is after our culture" attitude. I live in Missouri and this state is the least united state, the north and south still battle over neatly every issue. It's still Mizuree vs. Mizurah.

I don't think you can compare the thug shootings in US big cities to organized wide-spread violence in Lebanon or Iraq.

During the Israeli bombings the Christian villages of the south were almost completely evacuated. Because there are no civil services, few of the population have returned. Yes there are Palestinian Refugees but there are now a significant population of Christian refugees that cannot return to the south or earn a living in the cities. Hungry people eventually fight. And there are now a lot of hungry Christian-Lebanese-Refugees.

The Iraq-Iran war was a US dog keeping Iran under control. Only a few year before the Shah was our dog to keep Iraq in control. When you lose one you buy the other.

Saddam asked permission of Bush1 administration to invade Kuwait. Then Bush1 changed his mind when public opinion turned against the invasion. That's the point when we lost all control in the region because we neutered our dog. After that we had (have) no control in the region. This has allowed Iran to be totally feral. In order to have a dog in the fight you don't neuter or kill your dog and expect the other dogs not to claim power.

Saddam killed the Kurds because they were committing TREASON. If they hadn't been engaged in treason he would have left them alone. A strongman doesn't waste power on those that tolerate his rule. He doesn't have enough power to fight everyone. That would be a total waste. He also doesn't kill random. He targets his use of power to those that oppose him. Then he hits hard as a lesson to any others that might harbor such thoughts. Saddam was hung for killing those that tried to assassinate him. If I remember correctly, treason and the murder of a leader is a capital crime in the US. Of course, we traditionally only target the individual committing treason. But the Mid East is a tribal culture. Everyone in the tribe is responsible for keeping everyone else in line. Keep them in line and we are all safe. Allow anyone in the tribe to commit a crime and we all commit the crime and are subject to paying the cost of the crime. It's called peer pressure.

A strongman cannot tolerate any other power in his domain. This is also the reason that Saddam did not allow any of the various "terrorist groups" to set up camp in Iraq. A strongman simply wouldn't allow anyone who might grow to challenge his power to be tolerated in his domain. Remove the strongman and the "terrorist groups" move in and set up areas of power in hopes that one of theirs will be the next strongman. That's why we can't afford to leave without another collared strongman.

History of Saddam:

http://www.bushflash.com/swf/thanks.swf

I am an American Infantryman. In less than a month I will be deployed to the great Sand Box. Here is my perspective, in short novel form. :)

The reasons why we originally invaded Iraq can be debated endlessly. Frankly, they are not relevant to anyone but historians. What must be discussed instead is the CURRENT situation, what is happening on the ground.

Fact: Militant Islam is a common movement accross the world. Estimates range between 10% (being VERY conservative) and 20% of Muslims in the world support the Militant Islamofascist agenda. Many more than this are anti-west, and agree with them in principle, if not in tactics. This makes them a very credible threat. Nearly 2 Billion muslims in the world (http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/results.htm) makes 20% of this (or 200 million, for you math geniuses out there) a HUGE number. America, for perspective, has a population of approximately 300 million.

Fact: Militant Islamic groups have chosen Iraq for their battleground. This is perhaps the most important truth. Islamists from all over are joining the battle there. In war, you do not always have the luxury of choosing your fights. If the enemy ambushes you in a crap hole, you fight in a crap hole. You can't say "Well, I'm pretty darn uncomfortable here, so can we move to that nice green pasture over yonder?"

Don't take my word for it: Ask them! You'll find it plastered on every website, spouted on every children's show in Palistine. They want to institute a new Caliphate in the heart of ancient Babylon. For those who don't know, the Caliph is the ruler of all Islam everywhere, across the world. There hasn't been a Caliph since shortly after Muhammed's death.

For those who believe all the above, but are just tired: Believe me, I understand. War is not fun. Of all spectators, soldiers hate war the most. This is not a fast or easy thing. Take Nazi germany, for example. After the surrender of the government, the military occupation "was a huge and diverse undertaking spanning almost eleven years" (http://www.army.mil/cmh/books/wwii/Occ-GY/)

Keep in mind this was a secular power who had SURRENDERED. Most of their strength was gone, and yet idealists held out for over a decade. You also did not have Russians, Italians, and Japanese jumping the border to fight us. In Iraq we are fighting a religious fanaticism. Its not the Fuhrer telling you to do this: Its the Almighty Allah, creator and ruler of the Universe! Pretty powerful.

In conclusion, you cannot ignore the danger of the Islamists. They pose a serious threat to Muslims and non-Muslims alike. If we retreat, they gain victory. It is only through victory that you can defeat a foe. No evil force in history has every simply chosen to fade away on its own.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men to do nothing.


The fact that you think there are 2 billion muslims in the world embarasses you and it makes it hard to take your arguements seriously.

Create a flexible timetable for withdrawl, but redeploy the forces elsewhere in the Middle East and Turkey, just so that Iran doesn't turn the place into its playground. Also, leave some special forces in the country, to help with high-value targets and to continually train Iraqi troops. It's not ideal, but it's the best option now.