NationStates Jolt Archive

Washington Post wrote:
Malaysia's Lina Joy loses Islam conversion case

By Jalil Hamid and Syed Azman
Reuters
Wednesday, May 30, 2007; 12:56 AM

PUTRAJAYA, Malaysia (Reuters) - Malaysia's best known Christian convert, Lina Joy, lost a six-year battle on Wednesday to have the word "Islam" removed from her identity card, after the country's highest court rejected the change.

The court's ruling helps define religious freedoms in multi-racial Malaysia, whose constitution guarantees freedom of worship but deems all ethnic Malays like Joy to be Muslims, subject to Islamic laws that bar her conversion to another faith.

"You can't at whim and fancy convert from one religion to another," Federal Court Chief Justice Ahmad Fairuz Sheikh Abdul Halim said in delivering judgment in the case, which has stirred religious tensions in the mainly Muslim nation.

About 200 Muslims, mostly youths, had gathered outside the domed courthouse for the ruling. They welcomed the news with shouts of "Allah-o-Akbar" (God is great).

The three-judge appeal bench ruled 2-1 against Joy. The dissenting judge was the only non-Muslim on the bench.

The chief justice said the country's highest civil court had no jurisdiction in the case and said it should be dealt with by the country's Islamic or sharia court system.

"The issue of apostasy is related to Islamic law, so it's under the sharia court. The civil court cannot intervene," Ahmad Fairuz said.

In practice, sharia courts do not allow Muslims to formally renounce Islam. They often end up in legal limbo, unable to register their new religious affiliations or legally marry non-Muslims. Many keep silent about their choice or emigrate.

Lina Joy, 43, was born Azlina Jailani and was brought up as a Muslim, but at the age of 26 decided to become a Christian. She wants to marry her Christian boyfriend, a cook, but she cannot do so while her identity card declares her to me Muslim.

In 1999, the National Registration Department allowed her to change the name in her identity card to Lina Joy but the entry for her religion remained "Islam."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/30/AR2007053000041.html

Damn, I was really hoping that Malaysia was going to set the precedent here as to how a moderate Islamic country treats apostates. As an ex-Muslim myself I find this to be highly offensive, not to mention racist that a specific religion is assigned to one ethnicity. But meh, what do the Mulalhs that run the sharia courts in this country care about my opinion.:rolleyes:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/30/AR2007053000041.html

Damn, I was really hoping that Malaysia was going to set the precedent here as to how a moderate Islamic country treats apostates. As an ex-Muslim myself I find this to be highly offensive, not to mention racist that a specific religion is assigned to one ethnicity. But meh, what do the Mulalhs that run the sharia courts in this country care about my opinion.:rolleyes:

Unfortunately, that's what happens when a religion is still stuck in a 15th-century mentality where apostasy is punishable by death or whatever. Christianity went through it, where the Catholic Church killed apostates. Unfortunately, it might take 500 years of struggle and a couple of major world wars to get it through these people's heads that there are better things to worry about than when some random person doesn't want to play in your sandbox anymore.

Europe used to be the most volatile place in the world. Now it's the most peaceful. It would be incredible if the Middle East were, in a few centuries' time, as peaceful as modern-day Europe is. (Well, modern-day Europe without all the angry Muslim fundies, anyway.)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/30/AR2007053000041.html

Damn, I was really hoping that Malaysia was going to set the precedent here as to how a moderate Islamic country treats apostates. As an ex-Muslim myself I find this to be highly offensive, not to mention racist that a specific religion is assigned to one ethnicity. But meh, what do the Mulalhs that run the sharia courts in this country care about my opinion.:rolleyes:

If they catch you for claiming to be an ex-Muslim, I wonder what the punishment would be.

It's unbelievable asinine stuff like this that makes me hate religion more than I do. Religion seems intent on curbing people's freedoms.

It's unbelievable asinine stuff like this that makes me hate religion more than I do. Religion seems intent on curbing people's freedoms.

I think what really bothers you is the official endorsement of a specific religion by the government, which is what is happening in this particular case.

Unfortunately, that's what happens when a religion is still stuck in a 15th-century mentality where apostasy is punishable by death or whatever. Christianity went through it, where the Catholic Church killed apostates. Unfortunately, it might take 500 years of struggle and a couple of major world wars to get it through these people's heads that there are better things to worry about than when some random person doesn't want to play in your sandbox anymore.

Yeah, but what really dissapointed me was that this is Malaysia which prides itslef on being some kind of epitome of Moderate Islam. In a theocracy like Saudi Arabia heck, even the country I come from, the Maldives which is pseudo moderate (moderate as in every single citizen is required to be Muslim:rolleyes:) I would expect this but not in fucking Malaysia.


If they catch you for claiming to be an ex-Muslim, I wonder what the punishment would be.

Maldives is partly sharia, so constintutinally it's supposed to be death but most of the time they just lock you up and release you once you promise to be a good Muslim again. I have no idea what happens if your'e caught a second time though. In reality I'm not worried about what my government will do to me, more about social repurcusions. My parents have made peace with my apostasy but if the rest of my relatives ever find out it'll probably be the end of my relationships with them. So I''d rather that not happen, heh.

It's unbelievable asinine stuff like this that makes me hate religion more than I do. Religion seems intent on curbing people's freedoms.

Absoloutely. To be honest I dont really like Muhammad and his teachings at all, especially in regards to his stance on apostasy (though to be fair..he did borrow it from the old testament). But I really thought that modernizers had done a good job in bringing Muslim paradigms into the modern century, a lot of my friends are very liberal Muslims and support freedom of religion. It's be nice to think that the vast majority of Muslims thought like that but I've come to realise that the Muslim world is still very polarised, and it will take some time before we progress to an acceptable level of "moderate".

I think what really bothers you is the official endorsement of a specific religion by the government, which is what is happening in this particular case.

Pretty much. I'm a secularist who thinks the government should just stay out of the business of religion since it's a personal thing.

"You can't at whim and fancy convert from one religion to another," Federal Court Chief Justice Ahmad Fairuz Sheikh Abdul Halim said in delivering judgment in the case

what possible reasoning could be going on here? it is quite plain that people not only can, but do.

If a law is stated in the Holy Book, you must follow it. Otherwise, what kind follower are you for not following what the Lord order?

BTW, I say this in general, because I don't know much. Keep on Googling for more detail.

If a law is stated in the Holy Book, you must follow it. Otherwise, what kind follower are you for not following what the Lord order?

BTW, I say this in general, because I don't know much. Keep on Googling for more detail.

A Holy Book has about much clout as a toothless lion.

If a law is stated in the Holy Book, you must follow it. Otherwise, what kind follower are you for not following what the Lord order?

A rational one for realizing that just because a book states "god said so" does not ACTUALLY mean that god said so.

Unless you want to believe my magical mystical post-it note on my desk here that read:

every world religion is wrong.

-God

:mad:...that really makes me mad...

...Is there no way she can appeal the decision, or just emigrate to a sane country...

Religion... curb stomping induviduality since the dawn of time!

what possible reasoning could be going on here? it is quite plain that people not only can, but do.

Probably the same reasoning used in the Soviet Union: if you let people leave, they will. Ironic, given your nation's name :p

Unfortunately, that's what happens when a religion is still stuck in a 15th-century mentality where apostasy is punishable by death or whatever. Christianity went through it, where the Catholic Church killed apostates. Unfortunately, it might take 500 years of struggle and a couple of major world wars to get it through these people's heads that there are better things to worry about than when some random person doesn't want to play in your sandbox anymore.

Europe used to be the most volatile place in the world. Now it's the most peaceful. It would be incredible if the Middle East were, in a few centuries' time, as peaceful as modern-day Europe is. (Well, modern-day Europe without all the angry Muslim fundies, anyway.)

psssst

just sos you know

malaysia isnt in the middle east.

i know thats not what you said but it sure seemed like it was what you thought.

Probably the same reasoning used in the Soviet Union: if you let people leave, they will. Ironic, given your nation's name :p

lolz...qft, some Union.

Religion... curb stomping induviduality since the dawn of time!

sigged...

what possible reasoning could be going on here? it is quite plain that people not only can, but do.
My thought exactly :(
:mad:...that really makes me mad...

...Is there no way she can appeal the decision, or just emigrate to a sane country...

No. Supreme court decision.

I'm disappointed in Malaysia today. I had expected better from them. Damnit.

..Is there no way she can appeal the decision, or just emigrate to a sane country...

Well, the headline on the local newspaper over here said she's considering moving abroad, possibly to the US. It's a sad situation.

I'm disappointed in Malaysia today. I had expected better from them. Damnit.

Agreed, this really wasnt the decision I was expecting. Guess I was being overly optimistic.

I was born in Malaysia, I'm glad I'm in Australia and out of that place.

I was born in Malaysia, I'm glad I'm in Australia and out of that place.

You were? Now people are going to be wandering the streets, grabbing anyone who looks like they are from the Malay region and asking "Are you Jeruselem?"

Yeah, but what really dissapointed me was that this is Malaysia which prides itslef on being some kind of epitome of Moderate Islam. In a theocracy like Saudi Arabia heck, even the country I come from, the Maldives which is pseudo moderate (moderate as in every single citizen is required to be Muslim:rolleyes:) I would expect this but not in fucking Malaysia.

At least Indonesia is better than that (I think).

What can you do? If people keep insisting on living in backward countries they're going to be subject to the laws of those countries. If you want freedom, leave. Too bad the US, European nations, Australia and New Zealand regulate legal immigration so much. We could be getting the best and brightest of all those other nations and leaving all the fucktardmentalists conveniently isolated on islands and in deserts following their backward religious laws.

What can you do? If people keep insisting on living in backward countries they're going to be subject to the laws of those countries. If you want freedom, leave. Too bad the US, European nations, Australia and New Zealand regulate legal immigration so much. We could be getting the best and brightest of all those other nations and leaving all the fucktardmentalists conveniently isolated on islands and in deserts following their backward religious laws.

Or if they aren't highly skilled yet really want to flee their country we can put them in dinky little detention camps. :Sigh: .

What can you do? If people keep insisting on living in backward countries they're going to be subject to the laws of those countries. If you want freedom, leave. Too bad the US, European nations, Australia and New Zealand regulate legal immigration so much. We could be getting the best and brightest of all those other nations and leaving all the fucktardmentalists conveniently isolated on islands and in deserts following their backward religious laws.

Meh, your'e right I suppose. I didnt really consider Malaysia to be a backwards "country" until now but I guess I was proven wrong this time. What really peeved me is the judegs rationale, that people cannot change their religion at whim..very hypocritical because it is extremely easy for a non-Muslim to convert to Islam here and is even encouraged by the government. Of course once they convert into Islam they will be left in Lina Joys situation if they want to de-convert. The country I come from is even worse, in that apostasy is actually a punishable and serious offense. Their are some politicians here who arent very religious, but supporting freedom of beleif usually ends up consting them votes due to the conservative majority. Yes, I am considering leaving, but then I will have to leave a large network of friends and extended family behind who I am actually very close to. Ah well, I'll get over it.

At least Indonesia is better than that (I think).

I think so, it's supposedly secular like Turkey. Still, I doubt apostasy wouldnt be a sensitve issue their. If the rest of the world would get over their panic about there being some Muslim conspiracy to take over the world, tehn maybe we could start looking at the actual problems in the Muslim world that really need solving. Like its treatment of apostates.

I vote we send all these people to somewhere where they can't bug us, like Neptune.

I think so, it's supposedly secular like Turkey. Still, I doubt apostasy wouldnt be a sensitve issue their. If the rest of the world would get over their panic about there being some Muslim conspiracy to take over the world, tehn maybe we could start looking at the actual problems in the Muslim world that really need solving. Like its treatment of apostates.

Nope. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancasila_Indonesia)

[edit] (1) Belief in the one and only God (Ketuhanan yang Maha Esa)
This principle reaffirms the Indonesian people’s belief that God does exist. It also implies that the Indonesian people believe in life after death. It emphasizes that the pursuit of sacred values will lead the people to a better life in the hereafter. The principle is embodied in the 1945 Constitution and reads: "The state shall be based on the belief in the one and only God".

It spawns a lot of nutters too, after all.

Or if they aren't highly skilled yet really want to flee their country we can put them in dinky little detention camps. :Sigh: .

It's the American way.

*nods*

It's the American way.

*nods*

What? We're talking about Australia.

You Americans may be surpass us at many things, but we can screw prospective immigrants better than you can. So there.

What? We're talking about Australia.

You Americans may be surpass us at many things, but we can screw prospective immigrants better than you can. So there.

Also, I believe you have funnier accents. Perhaps a UKer can confirm this for us.

You were? Now people are going to be wandering the streets, grabbing anyone who looks like they are from the Malay region and asking "Are you Jeruselem?"


I'm a Chinese Malaysian - you'll have to find a Chinese person to find me :D

I'm a Chinese Malaysian - you'll have to find a Chinese person to find me :D

What a coincidence....

And the real problem isn't a backwards society. Rather, it's a backwards political scene which has pretty much become a self-sustaining mass of elite stupids with a healthy dose of favoritism and cronyism.

What a coincidence....

And the real problem isn't a backwards society. Rather, it's a backwards political scene which has pretty much become a self-sustaining mass of elite stupids with a healthy dose of favoritism and cronyism.

Yeah, Malaysians want to keep power by putting Malays in power and keeping Islam the dominant religion. They know the Chinese are ones with the money and the country would go broke if kicked all Chinese out.

Well, the headline on the local newspaper over here said she's considering moving abroad, possibly to the US. It's a sad situation.

I wonder if they will let her go.

Yeah, Malays want to keep power by putting Malays in power and keeping Islam the dominant religion. They know the Chinese are ones with the money and the country would go broke if kicked all Chinese out.

Corrected. Even if you're ethnically a Chinese, being born in Malaysia makes you one, as much as some of the more foolish politicians moan and gnash their teeth over it.

It's been a problem that's been around even before it's founding as an independent country.

Corrected. Even if you're ethnically a Chinese, being born in Malaysia makes you one, as much as some of the more foolish politicians moan and gnash their teeth over it.

It's been a problem that's been around even before it's founding as an independent country.

Yeah but I being Malaysian is still racial. Native Malays get treated differently to the Indians and Chinese there.

Yeah but I being Malaysian is still racial. Native Malays get treated differently to the Indians and Chinese there.

Well that is obvious when one sees the political makeup isn't it?

Well that is obvious when one sees the political makeup isn't it?

Yep, but the entire Malaysian system is rigged to favour native Malays. That's why my family moved to Australia :D

Yep, but the entire Malaysian system is rigged to favour native Malays. That's why my family moved to Australia :D

Eh, Australia's fine. A bit pricey though. And no matter where you go, or what you do, it's damn near impossible to duplicate some of the stuff you can find in Malaysia.

Do the words Ipoh Hor Fun ring any bells?

I'm a Chinese Malaysian - you'll have to find a Chinese person to find me :D

Yep, but the entire Malaysian system is rigged to favour native Malays. That's why my family moved to Australia :D

We have so much in common. :fluffle:

um... *flees*

I'm a Chinese Malaysian - you'll have to find a Chinese person to find me :D

Why must you make my quest to unmask you that much more difficult?

Now I have to run in order to ask Chinese people if they are Jeruselem AND ask Malay people if they know of any Chinese Malaysians!

You just increased my creepy proto-stalker workload. Thanks :rolleyes: .

EDIT: Dammit there is two of you! This might have to become a full time thing and not just a hobby...

Why must you make my quest to unmask you that much more difficult?

Now I have to run in order to ask Chinese people if they are Jeruselem AND ask Malay people if they know of any Chinese Malaysians!

You just increased my creepy proto-stalker workload. Thanks :rolleyes: .

Hey, I could have told you I'm Jewish! :p

What? We're talking about Australia.

You Americans may be surpass us at many things, but we can screw prospective immigrants better than you can. So there.

Yep, our new series of sports: Anti-Refugee ONND/L/N (One Nation Now Defunct/Liberal/National) Sports!

We have the boat shooting, debating (There were children thrown oeverboard ;) ) and camp constructing!

Wow, we got gold in all of them!

I am so proud *sniff*.

Hey, I could have told you I'm Jewish! :p

No you're not; you don't have phreaky ebil J00 haxxorz powerz.

I know these things.

EDIT: Dammit there is two of you! This might have to become a full time thing and not just a hobby...

We are legion...

:p

We are legion...

:p

You're not much of a legion :D.

There is time though, make the dream of a legion of Chinese Malaysians (or descendants) existing in Australia for me to follow/stalk come true!

You're not much of a legion :D.

There is time though, make the dream of a legion of Chinese Malaysians (or descendants) existing in Australia for me to follow/stalk come true!

And now we see here the consequences of watching too much porn. :p

Yep, our new series of sports: Anti-Refugee ONND/L/N (One Nation Now Defunct/Liberal/National) Sports!

We have the boat shooting, debating (There were children thrown oeverboard ;) ) and camp constructing!

Wow, we got gold in all of them!

I am so proud *sniff*.

where they learn Arts and Crafts :p

And now we see here the consequences of watching too much porn. :p

Pfff, I wouldn't be following you for sexual reasons, I have Ethiopians for that.

where they learn Arts and Crafts :p

They certainly excelled at it.

You're not much of a legion :D.

There is time though, make the dream of a legion of Chinese Malaysians (or descendants) existing in Australia for me to follow/stalk come true!

I never told you where I was living now did I?

*Hint* Look behind you.

They certainly excelled at it.

yes indeed

I never told you where I was living now did I?

*Hint* Look behind you.

I'm in a secret stalker-bunker. You can't get to me here!

I'm in a secret stalker-bunker. You can't get to me here!

That's what they all said.

That's what they all said.

I was everyone else. I am very good at disguises and have learned from my mistakes.

I was everyone else. I am very good at disguises and have learned from my mistakes.

No. You haven't number two four six oh one.

No. You haven't number two four six oh one.

*Hides better*