NationStates Jolt Archive

I've lived in the Southwest for most of my life and personally cant stand illegal immigration. One reason is that they get free medical care, dont have to pay taxes, and have many more rights than true Americans that have lived here there entire lives. But the big problem is that they bring their culture with them. And for those who haven't been to Mexico, thats not a good thing.

What really pisses me off is the way the media calls them "immigrants" and Bush calls them "undocumented Americans", which is even more absurd. They are neither. Immigrants are people who come here legally and become American citizens, not sneak across the border and leech off of us. And where exactly do these people get off holding massive protests demanding rights? If the government had any intention whatsoever of actually enforcing illegal immigration laws, it would round them up and deport them all right then and there. These people are parasites.

a symptom of a bigger problem

shouldn't be illegal.

shouldn't be illegal.

Why?

I've lived in the Southwest for most of my life and personally cant stand illegal immigration. One reason is that they get free medical care, dont have to pay taxes, and have many more rights than true Americans that have lived here there entire lives.

in addition to that not being "one reason", two of those are flatly false and the other is as true for you as it is for them.

But the big problem is that they bring their culture with them.

well that didn't take long

Why?

because borders are concepts and the idea that someone shouldn't be able to get an education for there family because they where born on the wrong side of one is disgusting?

I sense...great pain in the future for this thread...

*gets the fire extinguisher ready*

because borders are concepts and the idea that someone shouldn't be able to get an education for there family because they where born on the wrong side of one is disgusting?

Ummm...isn't that why people immigrate and become legal citizens? These people aren't doing that. And a national border is not an abstract, meaningless concept. We have immigration laws, do you think we should just toss all our laws out the window and let floods of people just migrate here any time they feel like it? And if you want to talk about disgusting, how about the President of the United States calling illegal aliens "undocumented Americans", and American citizens starving in the streets while these people get jobs "Americans won't do"?

The concept of illegal immigration is absurd. Open the borders!

We have unjust immigration laws, do you think we should just toss all our laws out the window and let floods of people just migrate here any time they feel like it?

fixed. and yes.

*gets the fire extinguisher ready*

oh joy ANOTHER thread about the evils of illegal immigrants.

fire extinguisher? Fuck that! I'm getting in the pool till the flames abate.

Ummm...isn't that why people immigrate and become legal citizens? These people aren't doing that. And a national border is not an abstract, meaningless concept. We have immigration laws, do you think we should just toss all our laws out the window and let floods of people just migrate here any time they feel like it? And if you want to talk about disgusting, how about the President of the United States calling illegal aliens "undocumented Americans", and American citizens starving in the streets while these people get jobs "Americans won't do"?

If the legal immigration process is so long and difficult, and not even likely to succeed due to a number of arbitrary factors, then ilegal immigration is the result. Reform the process, and it would do a lot to cut down on illegal immigration.

Until then, however...

Oh yes, because letting floods of people just enter our country at will would help so much with national security, not to mention that we have American citizens who do not have jobs. :rolleyes:

the legal immigration process is so long and difficult, and not even likely to succeed due to a number of arbitrary factors

and then there are the astronomical costs involved

fire extinguisher? Fuck that! I'm getting in the pool till the flames abate.
But it doesn't have a hole! But the pool seems cool.
*jumps in*

[/threadjack]

Why?

why should moving to another country for a better life be illegal? why should you need some beuraucrat's permission? what's so special about your country that other human beings should not be allowed to enjoy it?

why should moving to another country for a better life be illegal?

Who said anything about it being illegal? My grandparents were German immigrants. They immigrated legally and became American citizens. Nothing wrong with that, and it would be hypocritical of me to say that people shouldn't be allowed to immigrate. But immigration is a legal process, and these people are not immigrating. They are just sneaking in.

why should you need some beuraucrat's permission?

So we should have no laws at all and just let floods of undocumented people from who knows where enter our country at will...oh yes, that will do wonders for our already-tenuous grip on "national security". :rolleyes:

what's so special about your country that other human beings should not be allowed to enjoy it?

I like how you try to put words in my mouth. I have never and would never say a word against legal immigrants.

Ummm...isn't that why people immigrate and become legal citizens? These people aren't doing that.

because you don't just apply at the border and go through, what it involves is years of sitting at the border to see if your even accepted and where your sitting won't be too grand if your immigrating in desperation

We have immigration laws, do you think we should just toss all our laws out the window and let floods of people just migrate here any time they feel like it?

hang on where talking about America here, which is rather amusing and yes I think that would be a good idea seeing as how the laws are failures

And if you want to talk about disgusting, how about the President of the United States calling illegal aliens "undocumented Americans", and American citizens starving in the streets while these people get jobs "Americans won't do"?

so how are they not American exactly? and Americans starving (freezing actually) in the streets of los Angeles is to do with social problems not some Mexican picking crops in Texas

Who said anything about it being illegal? My grandparents were German immigrants. They immigrated legally and became American citizens. Nothing wrong with that, and it would be hypocritical of me to say that people shouldn't be allowed to immigrate. But immigration is a legal process, and these people are not immigrating. They are just sneaking in.

If it isn't illegal to move to another country, how can you be an illegal immigrant at all?

Oh, that's right, it *is* illegal to move to another country on a whim.

So we should have no laws at all and just let floods of undocumented people from who knows where enter our country at will...oh yes, that will do wonders for our already-tenuous grip on "national security". :rolleyes:

Well, you see, if the only requirement were that you needed to be documented, you'd probably not see that many so-called illegal immigrants not paying taxes. However, that's not the only thing that's required of them.

I like how you try to put words in my mouth. I have never and would never say a word against legal immigrants.

No really, what is so special about your country that other people shouldn't be allowed to move there freely?

Oh yes, because letting floods of people just enter our country at will would help so much with national security, not to mention that we have American citizens who do not have jobs. :rolleyes:

1) what national security?
2) http://www.discovergis.com/images/Map/Gallery/INS/Ue.gif

a map of American employment....oh look the top left has massive unemployment that must be where the Mexicans come from!

Oh yes, because letting floods of people just enter our country at will would help so much with national security, not to mention that we have American citizens who do not have jobs. :rolleyes:Creating international security is the way to have national security.

Demonstrate a correlation between immigration rates and unemployment. If you can, perhaps you can make a causation argument.

Who said anything about it being illegal? My grandparents were German immigrants. They immigrated legally and became American citizens.

do you know what 'immigrating legally' entailed for your grandparents vs what it entails for people today?

hang on where talking about America here, which is rather amusing

Yes America is made up predominantly of immigrants and descendants of immigrants. But legal immigrants and American citizens, not illegal aliens. There's a distinction.

so how are they not American exactly?

How are they Americans? An illegal alien who sneaks across the border and lives here illegally is not an American. An American is an American citizen who was born here or moved here legally and became a citizen of this country.

Who said anything about it being illegal? My grandparents were German immigrants. They immigrated legally and became American citizens. Nothing wrong with that, and it would be hypocritical of me to say that people shouldn't be allowed to immigrate. But immigration is a legal process, and these people are not immigrating. They are just sneaking in.



So we should have no laws at all and just let floods of undocumented people from who knows where enter our country at will...oh yes, that will do wonders for our already-tenuous grip on "national security". :rolleyes:



I like how you try to put words in my mouth. I have never and would never say a word against legal immigrants.

you can almost smell the (artificial) fear. i'm glad you put that in " "s so i didn't have to. you're far more in danger of being blown up or murdered by you're friendly neighbourhood righ-wingnut or a family member than any foreign national.

you're far more in danger of being blown up or murdered by you're friendly neighbourhood righ-wingnut or a family member than any foreign national.

I'm not in fear of being murdered by an illegal immigrant. I was talking about how easy allowing floods of undocumented people to enter our country at random with no laws governing their entry to let terrorists enter our country, not to mention who knows who else.

An immigrant is someone who goes through the legal process of immigration and becomes an American citizen, not an illegal alien who sneaks across the border. They are not the same thing, no matter how much you try to make it sound like they are.

Yes America is made up predominantly of immigrants and descendants of immigrants. But legal immigrants and American citizens, not illegal aliens. There's a distinction.

weird I thought New York had all that:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

one of the early principles of America was a land where the oppressed could move to be free course there was also the one about freedom and sepera8ion of church and state....

An American is an American citizen who was born here or moved here legally and became a citizen of this country.

no a US national is someone who lives in the US or claims identity to it the idea that it comes from a piece of paper is silly and a slap in the face to the things America stands for

I've lived in the Southwest for most of my life and personally cant stand illegal immigration. One reason is that they get free medical care, dont have to pay taxes, and have many more rights than true Americans that have lived here there entire lives. But the big problem is that they bring their culture with them. And for those who haven't been to Mexico, thats not a good thing.

Surprise fucko, all american culture is imported. Save for the culture of those tan guys withthe dark hair...the ones over on the shitty property.

Those bastards who get free college in exchange forthe continent...and umm we destroyed their culture.

If getting somemore mexicans and central Americans means that a culture that creates peple like you goes away...I need to install an airconditioner and water fountain in my trunk and start up hualing the future of America...its a new world gringo take off your white hood and deal with it like an American. not a fecking "Joe Bob" slack jaw inbred dirty barown person hater.

Heaven forbid these people cross the imaginary line looking for a job...oh no!!!

working Mexicans whatever will we do!!! Arrgghhhh tamales and picture of the Virgin Mary....stop the horror.

No please dont bring strong family ties and a strong work ethic!!! America will never be able to stand up to that...


...

Illegal Immigration... I say "Hola Senoirs y Senoiras, mi nacion es tu nacion, mi buena fortuna es tu buena fortuna" or something like that.

An immigrant is someone who goes through the legal process of immigration and becomes an American citizen, not an illegal alien who sneaks across the border. They are not the same thing, no matter how much you try to make it sound like they are.Since the legal immigration process isn't valid, the two are the same.

the idea that it comes from a piece of paper is silly and a slap in the face to the things America stands for

Well I think the President calling illegal aliens "undocumented Americans" and the media calling them "immigrants" is a slap in the face to American citizens, and for that matter a slap in the face to people who actually went through the legal process of immigration and became citizens of this country without sneaking in the back door and leeching off of it without becoming a citizen of it.

I was talking about how easy allowing floods of undocumented people to enter our country at random with no laws governing their entry to let terrorists enter our country, not to mention who knows who else.

your more likely to suffer right wing terrorist attacks, not that terrorism is something you can credibly fear, course blowing up abortion clinics and killing doctors isn't the same is it :rolleyes:

not that terrorism is something you can credibly fear

Why not?

course blowing up abortion clinics and killing doctors isn't the same is it


Umm yes blowing up abortion clinics is terrorism. If you think I'm some kind of right-winger, you're rather off the mark.

I'm not in fear of being murdered by an illegal immigrant. I was talking about how easy allowing floods of undocumented people to enter our country at random with no laws governing their entry to let terrorists enter our country, not to mention who knows who else.

An immigrant is someone who goes through the legal process of immigration and becomes an American citizen, not an illegal alien who sneaks across the border. They are not the same thing, no matter how much you try to make it sound like they are.

...How did the 9/11 terrorists enter the country? Ahhh yes we let them in.

Did they walk through the desert? no.
Didntthey fly through Canada as a matter of fact?
I see no one bitching about the amazing pourous Norhtern border of the United States...the one you can walk across with an ice cream cone and a flag in your hand no one will say shit to you.

The one with thousands of miles of beautiful country to hike across unhindered...ahh the great northern states...and Canada...so White, and Mexico...so Brown...I dont think that is an accident.

I think there should be absolutely no restrictions on immigration, after all borders are nothing more then arbitury lines that represent the nations greed and bigotry. I also think that theres no such thing as evil people and every person in the world would rather serve the community then his own ends, oh and communism works!

Well I think the President calling illegal aliens "undocumented Americans" and the media calling them "immigrants" is a slap in the face to American citizens, and for that matter a slap in the face to people who actually went through the legal process of immigration and became citizens of this country without sneaking in the back door and leeching off of it without becoming a citizen of it.

so they work but also leach off...strange especially considering how little benefits are given in the US

and again your missing the big picture if you fear your life and are living in poverty you are precisely what America was created to cradle, course you could look at the real problem that of poverty in South America but that would be far too much to expect

...How did the 9/11 terrorists enter the country? Ahhh yes we let them in.

Did they walk through the desert? no.
Didntthey fly through Canada as a matter of fact?
I see no one bitching about the amazing pourous Norhtern border of the United States...the one you can walk across with an ice cream cone and a flag in your hand no one will say shit to you.

The one with thousands of miles of beautiful country to hike across unhindered...ahh the great northern states...and Canada...so White, and Mexico...so Brown...I dont think that is an accident.

Yes we did let them in, and that is exactly part of the reason why we can't just allow floods of people to enter this country undocumented, at will. I don't know about the starter of this thread, but I don't care if the illegal immigrant comes from Canada or Mexico. It's not a racial or ethnic issue, it's a legal issue.

I think there should be absolutely no restrictions on immigration, after all borders are nothing more then arbitury lines that represent the nations greed and bigotry. I also think that theres no such thing as evil people and every person in the world would rather serve the community then his own ends, oh and communism works!
:rolleyes:

o they work but also leach off...strange especially considering how little benefits are given in the US
Funny how they always manage to be able to work and leech and have no documentation all at the same time isnt it?



look at the real problem that of poverty in South America
The only solution to immigration.

Why not?

because terrorism has killed less people in the past 10 years than swimming pools?

Umm yes blowing up abortion clinics is terrorism. If you think I'm some kind of right-winger, you're rather off the mark.

extreme nationalist = willing to use violence

which means you had better shit yourself if you neighbor has a flag

The one with thousands of miles of beautiful country to hike across unhindered...ahh the great northern states...and Canada...so White, and Mexico...so Brown...I dont think that is an accident.

better watch out those Americans will be destroying Canadian culture and taking advantage of the free health care next!

this is of course before they take your job and rape a white woman! *pressures Canadian government to build a freedom wall*

you can almost smell the (artificial) fear. i'm glad you put that in " "s so i didn't have to. you're far more in danger of being blown up or ed by you're friendly neighbourhood righ-wingnut or a family member than any foreign national.


Not trying to be xenophobic, really. But the fact is not all people who immigrate here are poor folks just trying to make a better life for themselves. There are crooks too. MS13 and such.

I've seen some of the kind of poverty ordinary Mexican citizens have to live in. I'd want to get the heck out of there too. But I think I come down on the anti-illegal side simply because you can't just pick and choose what laws to enforce, you know? But then of course that brings up the entire question of whether the immigration laws are actually enforceable. Not EVEN gonna pretend like I know the answer to that one.

because ism has killed less people in the past 10 years than swimming pools?



extreme nationalist = willing to use

which means you had better yourself if you neighbor has a flag



better watch out those Americans will be destroying Canadian culture and taking advantage of the free health care next!

this is of course before they take your job and a white woman! *pressures Canadian government to build a freedom wall*

LOL. Hmmm... I might just immigrate up there if we elect another Republican in 08. Free health care, nice forests, friendly folks. I could get used to that.
I'd omit the last bit of course. The white women would want MAH BOD!:p jk

Not trying to be xenophobic, really. But the fact is not all people who immigrate here are poor folks just trying to make a better life for themselves. There are crooks too. MS13 and such.

I've seen some of the kind of poverty ordinary Mexican citizens have to live in. I'd want to get the heck out of there too. But I think I come down on the anti-illegal side simply because you can't just pick and choose what laws to enforce, you know? But then of course that brings up the entire question of whether the immigration laws are actually enforceable. Not EVEN gonna pretend like I know the answer to that one.

well MS13 are certainly a scary prospect, but you've got plenty of homegrown homicidal gangs, it's not like it really makes a difference where they originate.

But the fact is not all people who immigrate here are poor folks just trying to make a better life for themselves. There are crooks too. MS13 and such.

actually, it turns out that immigrants are disproportionately unlikely to be crooks. they're one of the causes of our dropping crime rate, actually.

actually, it turns out that immigrants are disproportionately unlikely to be crooks. they're one of the causes of our dropping crime rate, actually.

Technically, illegal immigrants are criminals.

I might just immigrate up there if we elect another Republican in 08. Free health care, nice forests, friendly folks. I could get used to that.


I have to say, that sounds tempting myself.

1) what national security?
2) http://www.discovergis.com/images/Map/Gallery/INS/Ue.gif

a map of American employment....oh look the top left has massive unemployment that must be where the Mexicans come from!

your map is quite old, I am trying to find a more recent one, but this is all I can do for now
http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/images/U_May2004_small.jpg

tells a bit of a different story no?

extreme nationalist = willing to use violence

which means you had better shit yourself if you neighbor has a flag


Having a flag hardly makes you an extreme nationalist.

tells a bit of a different story no?

not really the left of the map is still jammed with the unemployed whereas Texas (which has large amounts of child poverty (http://www.fightpoverty.mmbrico.com/facts/cpt05b-fig01.jpg)) is still doing relatively well

odd how child poverty seems to lead to large unemployment though eh?

Having a flag hardly makes you an extreme nationalist.

but it does make you more likely to commit terrorism than a low income Mexican family

Personally, I think it's obvious that we should hate 'illegal immgration'. Immigration that breaks rules and goes under the radar causes many problems, social, economic and political. The real debate should be whether we want immigration to stop or whether we want it to be legal, and personally I think the issue should be getting these people to go legal.

The way that happens is simplifying your immigration laws and funding your department of immigration better. If people want to come illegally, they will do, and no wall will stop that. What you have to do is make it legal.

Call to power, what exactly are you arguing for here? Total removal of restrictions on immigration?

but it does make you more likely to commit terrorism than a low income Mexican family

Flying a flag does not make you a right-wing fanatic. And I don't give a damn if the illegal immigrants are low-income Mexicans or rich Canadians. Illegal is illegal, and their nationality is irrelevant.

not really the left of the map is still jammed with the unemployed whereas Texas (which has large amounts of child poverty (http://www.fightpoverty.mmbrico.com/facts/cpt05b-fig01.jpg)) is still doing relatively well

odd how child poverty seems to lead to large unemployment though eh?

children are usually in poverty because their parents don't make much money, parents might be making less money in states like Texas because the wage is being pushed down by cheap labor........maybe?

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c389/Smunkee/socialexplorer_us.gif

Call to power, what exactly are you arguing for here? Total removal of restrictions on immigration?

I guess though my arguments tend to morph to how the thread goes like some sort of crazy blob

Flying a flag does not make you a right-wing fanatic.

ah although flag waver =/= nationalist fanatic, nationalist fanatic == flag waver

their nationality is irrelevant.

if only....

children are usually in poverty because their parents don't make much money, parents might be making less money in states like Texas because the wage is being pushed down by cheap labor........maybe?

nah there is the usually story of the Southern states and there various problems and there is the low government support for poor families and other poverty issues (not that the UK is any example what with child poverty going up again)

Gawd, there are so many disingenuous BS arguments flying around this thread I don't quite know which to start with, so I'll just pick one at random and work my way on down.

"All this hype about illegal aliens is just because it's Mexicans. You don't see people crying about securing the Northern border, you racist!"

This argument is utterly meaningless. if there was a flood of millions of Canadians streaming over the border then you'd be comparing apples to apples. As it is, you're not.

"Borders are just meaningless arbitrary lines and people shouldn't be restricted from crossing them!"

Well, they may be meaningless to you, but they're pretty important to the Mexicans, aren't they? And by the way, while you're demonizing the US Government for blocking the border, just remember that Americans who cross illegaly into Mexico are imprisoned, and ain't protected by the Bill of Rights.

"Immigrants shouldn't be stopped from entering the US!"

Nobody is saying we shouldn't have immigration. This is a strawman argument that should be painfully obvious to anyone. Nobody I know of that wants to stop illegal immigration wants to stop *ALL* immigration.

"The immigration system sucks. These people are just avoiding a bad system!"

Yeah it does suck. So? I'm all for reforming the system to make it easier for people to enter the country legally. Let's do that. In the meantime, like it or not, it's the LAW. And people who ignore that have already demonstrated their willingness to violate US law for their own benefit at least once.

"Well these people deserve good health care and benefits!"

Why? By that logic why aren't we offering healthcare and benefits to everybody in the whole world? I have a better idea: Maybe we'd be better off working with the Mexican Government to help them boost their own standard of living such that this becomes unnecessary?

"They do jobs that Americans won't do!"

BS. And shame on you for that empty rhetoric.

"They contribute to the system just like everyone else."

Sometimes. For a time, my stepmother was in the country illegally. (She had overstayed a visa.) Despite this, she has taxes deducted from her check and Social Security was taken out. If this were true of all cases, we wouldn't have to worry about it. Problem is the vast majority of illegal aliens become daylaborers who are paid under the table and thus do not pay into taxes or Social Security. This also negates the meaningless tripe about their impact on the unemployment rate. How can you gather statistics about something that isn't recorded?

-Oh and one more thing related to this: under the proposed immigration bill, the same people who don't bother paying into Social Security would still be elligible to collect benefits later. Isn't our Social Security system already breaking down?

No really, what is so special about your country that other people shouldn't be allowed to move there freely?

Interesting question. whats so special that they *WOULD* want to move their?

have your own answer yet?

High fences with wide gates.

The only humane thing to do is to allow for immigration into the US, to make it documented and to make it effective. I say make it so that people don't have to sneak in, rather allow them in by an open and transparent method. This way some of the abuses that undocumented workers suffer will be easily alleviated.

High fences with wide gates.

The only humane thing to do is to allow for immigration into the US, to make it documented and to make it effective. I say make it so that people don't have to sneak in, rather allow them in by an open and transparent method. This way some of the abuses that undocumented workers suffer will be easily alleviated.

I can agree with that. Let them in, get them documented, start them paying taxes, all is good.

The only humane thing to do is to allow for immigration into the US, to make it documented and to make it effective. I say make it so that people don't have to sneak in, rather allow them in by an open and transparent method. This way some of the abuses that undocumented workers suffer will be easily alleviated.

it will never pass though farmers/factory owners make too much money off of exploitation to have the government do anything

course you do however have the post that ends this thread *gives milk bottles*

Some one refert to the illegal immigrants as parasiets. However, who is the real parasiet. Let's not forget that are still the citicens of a nation who benefit (parasiet) the cheap labour of the illegals.

Approaching this from a British perspective, not only are illegal immigrants clearly undesirable, given that they eschewed the legal immigration process, but they also contribute to numerous social problems, not the least of which is overpopulation, whilst placing immense strain upon an ailing NHS.

They ought to be deported with due haste, not they will.

I've lived in the Southwest for most of my life and personally cant stand illegal immigration. One reason is that they get free medical care, dont have to pay taxes, and have many more rights than true Americans that have lived here there entire lives. But the big problem is that they bring their culture with them. And for those who haven't been to Mexico, thats not a good thing.

I think that we could stand to benefit from Mexican Machismo culture. Lately, we have gotten a bit soft and femisty in our culture and as a sexist I am upset by this.

I think that America is a cosmopolitan melting pottish kind of place and that is great.

However, there is only so much room in America and we have an awfully huge population. I think we need to shed about 50 million to 75 million off of our population to be where we should be as far as the burden that our population is placing on natural habitats and pollution.

Unfortunatley, I do not think that we have the space for immigrants at this time.

I am against amnesty for any criminals unless the crime is decriminalized. I think that we have an important interest in regulating the number of folks that come into our country for environmental and perhaps other reasons. However, I contrast this with marijuana laws. I think that if we were to legalize marijuana we should pardon all the marijuana offense convicts and grant amnesty for past crimes within the statute of repose/limitations for criminal prosecutions.

Amen to everything Neo Bretonnia said.

Legal immigrants and illegal aliens are not the same thing, no matter how much the media, the government, and a lot of people in this thread try to blur the line. Comparing someone who went through the long, complicated process of legal immigration to someone who runs across the border one night is an insult to the first person.

Being against illegal immigration does not equal being against immigration in general, no matter how much you try to put words in people's mouths just to shut them up.

I believe Illegal Immigration is bad
I believe Illegal Immigration is good
I don't have an opinion on Illegal Immigration

You know what really surprises me about immegration in teh US? Most of you seem to be so opposed against it, while 99% of your ancestors were illegal in some kind of way. Do you think the native Indians liked it when you came? Of course the Afro-Americans didn't have much of a choice, but still...

The America is a nation of immigrants.

And last but not least, immigration from sh*tholes to places where livingstandards are much better. There are plenty of examples throughout history.

My first reaction is what part of "illegal" don't people understand?

But as an explanation of the mess we find ourselves in:

The whole thing has little to do with the people themselves. It has to do with corporate America and the political power that has been for 27 years. All government functions since Reagan have been to increase the wealth of corporations. A large part of that has been to drive down wages. How to do that? Supply and demand. When there is an oversupply of anything the cost goes down. So if the borders are opened to massive influx of labor the price goes down and corporate America makes more money. Corporate America doesn't give a d____ about people only profits. But they do know they are protected by those that do give a d___ about people. They win all the way around.

Example:

30 years ago it was easy to find Americans that were willing to work in a slaughtering plant. The average plant paid $17/hr in 1980. Today that same plant pays $10/hr. Have you seen the price of meat drop because of this? No? Well, you have seen the number of companies running slaughtering plants drop from about 10 major companies to 3. You have seen virtually all line employees become illegal. You have heard the owners say that Americans won't take the job at $10/hr. But have you heard them say that Americans won't take the job at $17/hr (not even factoring in inflation).


Reagan had things figured out. You don't need to do away with minimum wage, just never raise it and inflation will take care of it. You don't need to pay living wages to the bottom, just import massive labor and the price of labor will drop.

Why don't we automatically give a green card to anyone with a college diploma? Those are the people that will invent knew things to keep the economy growing. Except, that would bring supply and demand pressure to the top and not the bottom.

Personally, I think the current immigration laws are broken all to hell. We need to greatly increase the amount of people who are allowed to come in from Mexico and make the process much easier than it is. After that we can talk about trying to stop illegal immigration.

As for the illegal immigrants, the only sensible thing is to let them stay. There are about as many illegal immigrants in the US as there are Ohioans, and while I wouldn't mind deporting the whole population of Ohio it would be a rather daunting financial task. And that's not even going in to the whole human aspect of the thing.

The America is a nation of immigrants.

"The America"?

Approaching this from a British perspective, not only are illegal immigrants clearly undesirable, given that they eschewed the legal immigration process, but they also contribute to numerous social problems, not the least of which is overpopulation, whilst placing immense strain upon an ailing NHS.

They ought to be deported with due haste, not they will.

Problem is, a bobby walking down the road can't just say, "Oi, you look petty illegal to me, you're going to have to come with me mate", because, firstly illegal migrants aren't going to make themselves obvious, secondly, it's against the law - you cant just yank someone down to the police station and get them to prove they have the proper documents, it's a complete intrusion, and most of the time it will be futile.

The real issue is - Illegal migrants are exactly that, outside the law. So it is difficult for the law to find them. It's so ridiculous that last year there was a media outcry because the Home Secretary couldnt tell Parliament how many illegal migrants there are in Britain, I mean, if the Government counted them it'd get rid of them wouldnt it!

Also, earlier someone posted that America needed to shed 50 million people; that's ridiculous, America is one of the most sparsely populated countries in the world. If we're evening out world population, then America needs to take a load of Asia and Europe. America could comfortably fit millions more, if you ask me.

Also, earlier someone posted that America needed to shed 50 million people; that's ridiculous, America is one of the most sparsely populated countries in the world. If we're evening out world population, then America needs to take a load of Asia and Europe. America could comfortably fit millions more, if you ask me.

Might give us a reason to get public transit up to snuff so I don't have to keep spending $30 a week on gas...but that's a whole other thread.

Last I checked the Dakotas had plenty of room.

But I think I come down on the anti-illegal side simply because you can't just pick and choose what laws to enforce, you know? If the laws should be overturned, you can.

And by the way, while you're demonizing the US Government for blocking the border, just remember that Americans who cross illegaly into Mexico are imprisoned, and ain't protected by the Bill of Rights.So two wrongs make a right?

"Immigrants shouldn't be stopped from entering the US!"

Nobody is saying we shouldn't have immigration. This is a strawman argument that should be painfully obvious to anyone. Nobody I know of that wants to stop illegal immigration wants to stop *ALL* immigration. There isn't a relevant difference, so an argument against illegal immigration is essentially an argument against all immigration.

I can agree with that. Let them in, get them documented, start them paying taxes, all is good.I third this. It will remove the unjust part about illegalizing immigration while countering most of the xenophobes' arguments.

Legal immigrants and illegal aliens are not the same thing, no matter how much the media, the government, and a lot of people in this thread try to blur the line. Comparing someone who went through the long, complicated process of legal immigration to someone who runs across the border one night is an insult to the first person.So then when prohibition was repealed, was this an insult to all of the people who were jailed for drinking?

Problem is, a bobby walking down the road can't just say, "Oi, you look petty illegal to me, you're going to have to come with me mate", because, firstly illegal migrants aren't going to make themselves obvious, secondly, it's against the law - you cant just yank someone down to the police station and get them to prove they have the proper documents, it's a complete intrusion, and most of the time it will be futile.

The real issue is - Illegal migrants are exactly that, outside the law. So it is difficult for the law to find them. It's so ridiculous that last year there was a media outcry because the Home Secretary couldnt tell Parliament how many illegal migrants there are in Britain, I mean, if the Government counted them it'd get rid of them wouldnt it!
I think one of the main problems (One that's not exclusive to Britain, but is shared by most countries that have illegal immigrant problems) is that our government is unwilling to target the employers. For employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, there should be crippling fines against the businesses and prison terms for some offenders. This kind of approach towards the employers would lead many to be too scared to employ illegal immigrants. When that happens there won't be all the jobs that attract the illegal immigrants here - and many of those that remain would end up leaving when there's no work for them.

So two wrongs make a right?
Just pointing oout the different standards by which people judge. Ignoring my point, are we?


There isn't a relevant difference, so an argument against illegal immigration is essentially an argument against all immigration.



Well since you said so, it must be true.

Wait... I have a better idea... how about you support the ludicrous claim that an opinion against illegal immigration is equivalent to an opinion against ALL immigration.

You do understand, don't you, that an apple and an orange are two very different fruits?

Just pointing oout the different standards by which people judge. Ignoring my point, are we?What was your point? It seemed as though it was that Mexico throws people in jail, so as long as we don't do that, we're okay.

Well since you said so, it must be true.

Wait... I have a better idea... how about you support the ludicrous claim that an opinion against illegal immigration is equivalent to an opinion against ALL immigration.

You do understand, don't you, that an apple and an orange are two very different fruits?Certainly, but a MacIntosh and a Granny Smith are both apples, and this is what the distinction between legal and illegal immigration amounts to.

Unless, of course, you can come up with something better than "one is legal and one isn't".

What was your point? It seemed as though it was that Mexico throws people in jail, so as long as we don't do that, we're okay.

My point was in response to several claims that a border is meaningless and that somehow it's the US that's wrong for even discussing it. It is that the border IS important and for evidence of that simply look around.


Certainly, but a MacIntosh and a Granny Smith are both apples, and this is what the distinction between legal and illegal immigration amounts to.

Unless, of course, you can come up with something better than "one is legal and one isn't".

Apples and oranges.

A legal immigrant pays taxes. A legal immigrant has had some kind of background check. A legal immigrant contributes to Social Security. A legal immigrant is required to be either in school or gainfully employed while in the United States. legal immigration can be curtailed during times when it may become necessary to restrict the number of people entering the country. Legal immigrants are demonstrating respect for the laws of the country in which they want to live. legal immigrants can be kept track of, if necessary.

None of which applies to an illegal immigrant.

My point was in response to several claims that a border is meaningless and that somehow it's the US that's wrong for even discussing it. It is that the border IS important and for evidence of that simply look around.So the border is important simply because people think it is?

Apples and oranges.

A legal immigrant pays taxes. A legal immigrant has had some kind of background check. A legal immigrant contributes to Social Security. A legal immigrant is required to be either in school or gainfully employed while in the United States. legal immigration can be curtailed during times when it may become necessary to restrict the number of people entering the country. Legal immigrants are demonstrating respect for the laws of the country in which they want to live. legal immigrants can be kept track of, if necessary.

None of which applies to an illegal immigrant.Yes, but most of those problems would be taken care of with immigration laws such as the ones that Andaluciae described:

"The only humane thing to do is to allow for immigration into the US, to make it documented and to make it effective. I say make it so that people don't have to sneak in, rather allow them in by an open and transparent method. This way some of the abuses that undocumented workers suffer will be easily alleviated."

If you're going to complain that illegals don't pay taxes, it's silly to support the one thing that makes it impossible for them to do so. (Their illegal status itself.)

I've lived in the Southwest for most of my life and personally cant stand illegal immigration. One reason is that they get free medical care, dont have to pay taxes, and have many more rights than true Americans that have lived here there entire lives.
"More rights"? Really? Like what?
But the big problem is that they bring their culture with them. And for those who haven't been to Mexico, thats not a good thing.
If that's your big problem, your perspective is quite skewed. Illegal immigration is a problem, but not due to the importing of culture.

I've lived in the Southwest for most of my life and personally cant stand illegal immigration. One reason is that they get free medical care, dont have to pay taxes, and have many more rights than true Americans that have lived here there entire lives.

I have to say honestly, you have no idea what you're talking about. Illegal immigrants are immensely exploited by government and employers. They have no legal recourse. They can and are treated like dirt, like absolute dirt. Just what "rights" do you think they have that you don't? Name five. I'll wait.

But the big problem is that they bring their culture with them.

Oh, so you're a bigot. I'm surprised, really I am - so few people who are vehemently against illegal immigration are bigots that it's absolutely shocking, especially on NSG, to see a bigot against illegal immigration based on "ohnoes they have hispanic culture."

I have to say honestly, you have no idea what you're talking about. Illegal immigrants are immensely exploited by government and employers. They have no legal recourse. They can and are treated like dirt, like absolute dirt. Just what "rights" do you think they have that you don't? Name five. I'll wait.
1. Being given the honor and the priveledge of making $1/hr.
2. Being given the wonderful gift of 12+ hr work days 6-7 days a week.
3. Not having to hassle with pesky things like time off requests and employer provided healthcare.

Well, there's 3 anyway.

Oh, so you're a bigot. I'm surprised, really I am - so few people who are vehemently against illegal immigration are bigots that it's absolutely shocking, especially on NSG, to see a bigot against illegal immigration based on "ohnoes they have hispanic culture."
Feh, the whole "melting pot" idea is so last year. Assimilation is what's new and hip.

The answer is quite simple. Reform the immigration process. Make it easy and accessible. The Mexicans get fair wages so they win. They pay taxes into the system they're using, so the US wins.

The only people who lose are employers who want to exploit their workers and bigots.

The answer is quite simple. Reform the immigration process. Make it easy and accessible. The Mexicans get fair wages so they win. They pay taxes into the system they're using, so the US wins.

The only people who lose are employers who want to exploit their workers and bigots.


I agree. That is the answer. Putting tanks and barbed wire on the border is not. Illegal immigrants are obviously desperate enough to want to become illegal immigrants rather than stay where they are, so why would any amount of "deterrence" deter them? It certainly won't solve things. The only way we could solve things in that fashion would be to militarize the US, strip away rights and increase corruption so that we're as bad as Mexico.

And it's disgusting that there are people who actually want to do this. Cuz at least we won't have their "culture" (wink wink) invading our "cultural" (wink wink) purity.

1. Being given the honor and the priveledge of making $1/hr.
2. Being given the wonderful gift of 12+ hr work days 6-7 days a week.
3. Not having to hassle with pesky things like time off requests and employer provided healthcare.

Well, there's 3 anyway.


Feh, the whole "melting pot" idea is so last year. Assimilation is what's new and hip.
Couldn't Congress do something such as amending the worker protection/wages laws to cover everyone who works in the United States, no matter what country they are from?

The problem isnt with the laws, it's that if you're illegal you're not going to go to the government to challenge your working practices because then you'll get picked up as illegal.

The problem isnt with the laws, it's that if you're illegal you're not going to go to the government to challenge your working practices because then you'll get picked up as illegal.Yeah, but I highly doubt the US can realistically deport millions of people that are supposedly over here illegally.

Couldn't Congress do something such as amending the worker protection/wages laws to cover everyone who works in the United States, no matter what country they are from?

That's why there needs to be some sort of immigration reform. There's no way to protect someone who is here illegally or undocumented or whatever.

And the vast majority of the Mexicans here would be more than happy to be documented/legal workers.

So the border is important simply because people think it is?

Yes, but most of those problems would be taken care of with immigration laws such as the ones that Andaluciae described:

"The only humane thing to do is to allow for immigration into the US, to make it documented and to make it effective. I say make it so that people don't have to sneak in, rather allow them in by an open and transparent method. This way some of the abuses that undocumented workers suffer will be easily alleviated."

If you're going to complain that illegals don't pay taxes, it's silly to support the one thing that makes it impossible for them to do so. (Their illegal status itself.)

Ok, see this is why it's pointless to carry this exchange any further. I've already made exactly that point. I said earlier that the immigration system needed work to make it easier for people to immigrate to the US legally. It was in my first post. Now, if you're going to take me to task for something I've said, I ask that you take the time to first make sure that you actually disagree, rather than just looking for a fight to pick.

Yeah, but I highly doubt the US can realistically deport millions of people that are supposedly over here illegally.

Oh exactly, in Britain The Independent newspaper calculated that it would cost £4.7 billion to deport all our illegal migrants, whereas they would pay £1 billion in tax each year if legalised.

Unless, of course, you can come up with something better than "one is legal and one isn't".

Why do I have to come up with something better than that? It's THE LAW. Illegal immigrants are i-l-l-e-g-a-l

il·le·gal (ĭ-lē'gəl) Pronunciation Key
adj.

1. Prohibited by law.
2. Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football.
3. Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer: an illegal operation.

If the law is flawed, then it needs to be revised, not tossed out the window for a free-for-all on our national borders.

Why do I have to come up with something better than that? It's THE LAW. Illegal immigrants are i-l-l-e-g-a-l

il·le·gal (ĭ-lē'gəl) Pronunciation Key
adj.

1. Prohibited by law.
2. Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football.
3. Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer: an illegal operation.

If the law is flawed, then it needs to be revised, not tossed out the window for a free-for-all on our national borders.

And that's where the focus needs to be. Bush might not have had the enitre answer with his attempt at immigration reform, but at least he was thinking in the right direction.

Putting fences and guards on the borders isn't the answer. It will never be the answer.

LOL. Hmmm... I might just immigrate up there if we elect another Republican in 08. Free health care, nice forests, friendly folks. I could get used to that.
I'd omit the last bit of course. The white women would want MAH BOD!:p jk

My wife and I have been looking for a place to escape...I mean expatriate to.

Illegals need to be screened for disease and criminal background. As to the number ultimately let in, ask an economist. I'm not sure I'm qualified to say. ;)

My wife and I have been looking for a place to escape...I mean expatriate to.

Well, I dont know what Machiavellian Heaven would think of you two escaping to his Bod. :D

After deep consideration, my opinion on "Illegal Immigrants" is that:

They are individuals who have come into the country

and done so illegally.

That is all.

The lying pissantism of the OP aside...


I think that illegal aliens should be pernanently barred from citizenship, but should be eligible for legal residency. A modest fine should be imposed on them, with severe penalties for not registering and paying.

Border enforcement could stand to be stepped-up a bit, and stingent penalties on employers of illegal aliens is sine qua non.

A guest worker program is also not a bad idea. Also, it should be much quicker and easier to become a US citizen, if you have some merit towards becoming one and are not a criminal or other undesirable.

Also, earlier someone posted that America needed to shed 50 million people; that's ridiculous, America is one of the most sparsely populated countries in the world. If we're evening out world population, then America needs to take a load of Asia and Europe. America could comfortably fit millions more, if you ask me.

We all need to do our part in reducing overpopulation. No country needs to take the load off another country's problem. That is temporary dilution and not a solution to the problem. Just because we have it better here does not mean that we have a good situation. There is 1 person per 1/4 acre of US soil. That is scary to me. It is a shame that it is worse elsewhere but we as Americans do not have too much control over other places. We do have control of our own natural habitat areas and we need to be good stewards and make sure that we are growing natural habitat space instead of shrinking it.

I just wish that our stupid activist supreme court did not declart that reproductive rights are basic human rights and cannot be restricted in China. I hope that this can be overturned and we can start moving in the direction of Red China by at least offering tax incentives to couples that have no kids or only have one or two children and tax penalties for folks with more kids.

The lying pissantism of the OP aside...


I think that illegal aliens should be pernanently barred from citizenship, but should be eligible for legal residency. A modest fine should be imposed on them, with severe penalties for not registering and paying.

Border enforcement could stand to be stepped-up a bit, and stingent penalties on employers of illegal aliens is sine qua non.

A guest worker program is also not a bad idea. Also, it should be much quicker and easier to become a US citizen, if you have some merit towards becoming one and are not a criminal or other undesirable.

That's fine for the future. But with legal immigration being unattainable for most of them at present time, I hardly see how that's fair.

-snip-
I just wish that our stupid activist supreme court did not declart that reproductive rights are basic human rights and cannot be restricted in China. I hope that this can be overturned and we can start moving in the direction of Red China by at least offering tax incentives to couples that have no kids or only have one or two children and tax penalties for folks with more kids.

The supreme court has to defend all of it's rulings with the constitution. Which part would they use to limit the number of children a person could have?

That's fine for the future. But with legal immigration being unattainable for most of them at present time, I hardly see how that's fair.

I suppose I should clarify, since it wasnt clear in my post.

I don't think that illegal aliens should be eligible for citizenship from within the US, they should have to leave and come back using the same legal channels as the rest.

If they want to stay, they should be allowed to become legal resident aliens, with some fee or sanction punishing them for entering illegally in the first place.

Nothing too steep, but such fines could help fund better enforcement of border and labor laws.

I do not, and will never, believe there is any such thing as an "illegal" immigrant.

I do not, and will never, believe there is any such thing as an "illegal" immigrant.

It isn't a tough concept...

There are laws against entering the country without going through certain channels.

Therefore, entering the country without going through certain channels is illegal.

Therefore, entering the country without going through certain channels is illegal.

*shrug*

Stupid laws are meant to be broken.

Or do you live in fear?

*shrug*

Stupid laws are meant to be broken.

Or do you live in fear?

Non sequitur.

Whether or not a law is stupid, and whether or not it is therefore 'meant to be broken' doesn't change the fact that it is a law. Actions which break laws are illegal.

Or do you live in fear?

Yes.

Any minute now......*eye twitch*...

they

Will

SWARM!!!

Yes.

Any minute now......*eye twitch*...

they

Will

SWARM!!!

Made me /lol

:D

Non sequitur.

Whether or not a law is stupid, and whether or not it is therefore 'meant to be broken' doesn't change the fact that it is a law. Actions which break laws are illegal.

Incidental.

A stupid law is not a law.

All laws are simple ideas and, thus, can be revoked by actions.

There is no such thing as an illegal immigrant.

I do not, and will never, believe there is any such thing as an "illegal" immigrant.

Entering the country illegally makes you an illegal alien. It doesn't matter whether you "believe it" or not.


Stupid laws are meant to be broken.

Ok, so what if I decide it's stupid to have to stop at a red light? See my point? People don't have the right to just decide the law is stupid and they don't have to pay any attention to it.

Or do you live in fear?

Nice job trying to divert focus away from the actual discussion by throwing some random comment like that out there. Might as well try playing the race card while you're at it. :rolleyes:

Ok, so what if I decide it's stupid to have to stop at a red light? See my point? People don't have the right to just decide the law is stupid and they don't have to pay any attention to it.


Are resistance movements a bad idea then in wars?

There is no such thing as an illegal immigrant.

I agree. They are not immigrants, they are illegal aliens.

Are resistance movements a bad idea then in wars?

Hardly a comparable situation.

Hardly a comparable situation.

You said laws shouldn't be broken just because they're disliked. I was just giving an example to show its not that clear cut

Incidental.

A stupid law is not a law.

All laws are simple ideas and, thus, can be revoked by actions.

There is no such thing as an illegal immigrant.

:eek::confused:

You just made me /aefjfhlaoiewha.klnv.aliow;4ekalewrklgn

By that reasoning, there is no such thing as no such thing.

Because that was a stupid idea, and since it was a simple one, it can be revoked by my post, and therefore there is no such thing as no such thing.


ow ow ow

Entering the country illegally makes you an illegal alien. It doesn't matter whether you "believe it" or not.

Laws, like God, are an idea.

They are the petty ramblings of the fearful.

No law was ever made except out of fear.

The following and acceptance of the Law is only done out of fear.

Stems from the old "Thou shalt not" drivel of the ancient Hebrews who feared a mythical sky monster.

There is no such thing as an "illegal" immigrant. Until you prove - beyond your Bible - that there is, then I will not accept your argument.

Laws, like God, are an idea.

They are the petty ramblings of the fearful.

No law was ever made except out of fear.

The following and acceptance of the Law is only done out of fear.

Stems from the old "Thou shalt not" drivel of the ancient Hebrews who feared a mythical sky monster.

There is no such thing as an "illegal" immigrant. Until you prove - beyond your Bible - that there is, then I will not accept your argument.

I assume there are also no such things as murderers, rapists and thieves?

Incidental.

A stupid law is not a law.

All laws are simple ideas and, thus, can be revoked by actions.

There is no such thing as an illegal immigrant.

Blah blah blah :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Que profundo, mang.

:rolleyes:

I assume there are also no such things as murderers, rapists and thieves?

What are you? Some sort of lunatic?

Clearly there are no murderers, rapists, and thieves, because the words used to describe such "acts" and the "actors" are made by us humans. Out of Fear. The only reason we made up words like that to describe so-called 'unethical' and 'inhumane' behavior was because we needed something to grunt at them when we burned them like the steak.

Sheesh....

I assume there are also no such things as murderers, rapists and thieves?

Only if you follow the 10 Commandments - which I don't.

Laws are made out of fear.

If you can't see that, I'm sorry.

I suppose I should clarify, since it wasnt clear in my post.

I don't think that illegal aliens should be eligible for citizenship from within the US, they should have to leave and come back using the same legal channels as the rest.

If they want to stay, they should be allowed to become legal resident aliens, with some fee or sanction punishing them for entering illegally in the first place.

Nothing too steep, but such fines could help fund better enforcement of border and labor laws.

Okay, that makes a lot more sense. That could go along with the immigration reform.

I do think it's a too much red tape for those that are already in the US when the laws change.

I do not, and will never, believe there is any such thing as an "illegal" immigrant.

I believe there is. I also believe that immigrants moving into the country without going through proper channels can be problematic.

I assume there are also no such things as murderers, rapists and thieves?

Only if you follow the 10 Commandments - which I don't.

Laws are made out of fear.

If you can't see that, I'm must be blind.

Wootlawl. Wawl..

So there are no murderers, rapists, or theives, if you follow the 10 Commandments???

Sounds like a good idea to me then.

Only if you follow the 10 Commandments - which I don't.

Laws are made out of fear.

If you can't see that, I'm sorry.

Just because they're made out of fear they should be removed?

Only if you follow the 10 Commandments - which I don't.

Laws are made out of fear.

If you can't see that, I'm sorry.

so you have no problems with someone who would rape and kill a person? I mean you don't fear them right? because if you don't fear them they don't exist?

what kind of pharmaceuticals are you on? are they expensive?

I believe there is. I also believe that immigrants moving into the country without going through proper channels can be problematic.

How? What are you afraid of? Explain.

How? What are you afraid of? Explain.

The simple fact that they use up rescources without paying for them. (not all, but most)

Like having a tapeworm in your...um.. stomach? Intestine?

so you have no problems with someone who would rape and kill a person? I mean you don't fear them right? because if you don't fear them they don't exist?

A person may kill another, but only laws call him a murderer.

What if he killed a person who was trying to harm his child? Is he still a "murderer"?

You leap to illogical conclusions in my argument. However, you're still alive and, thus, have never been the victim of a "murderer" ... so what are you afraid of?

A person may kill another, but only laws call him a murderer.

What if he killed a person who was trying to harm his child? Is he still a "murderer"?

You leap to illogical conclusions in my argument. However, you're still alive and, thus, have never been the victim of a "murderer" ... so what are you afraid of?

Yea.. granted.. but thats why there is a jury and court proceedings.

The fact that someone is still alive means they do still have something to fear...death. Or the individual can choose to not fear it, but being murdered is no walk in the park.

I assume there are also no such things as murderers, rapists and thieves?

It's all fundie Christian lies!!!!!! You people are trying to push your crazy sense of values onto everyone!!!!!


Keep your lawn off my body!!!!

A person may kill another, but only laws call him a murderer.

What if he killed a person who was trying to harm his child? Is he still a "murderer"?

You leap to illogical conclusions in my argument. However, you're still alive and, thus, have never been the victim of a "murderer" ... so what are you afraid of?

I have been the victim of a rapist, and I am still afraid. People do things that hurt other people, the law is there to provide some protection. Saying that a rapist doesn't exist except in the mind of someone who is afraid is ridiculous.

I have been the victim of a rapist, and I am still afraid. People do things that hurt other people, the law is there to provide some protection. Saying that a rapist doesn't exist except in the mind of someone who is afraid is ridiculous.

The law didn't protect you at all, now did it?

I have been the victim of a rapist, and I am still afraid. People do things that hurt other people, the law is there to provide some protection. Saying that a rapist doesn't exist except in the mind of someone who is afraid is ridiculous.

:( Sorry to hear that.




Thread....derailed...

*pulls train*

*passes out*

The law didn't protect you at all, now did it?

It protects possible future victims

The law didn't protect you at all, now did it?

So because people still choose to commit crimes it makes the law invalid?

The law didn't protect you at all, now did it?

:( no.

he didn't even go to jail long.......

Yea.. granted.. but thats why there is a jury and court proceedings.

Doesn't work.

Due process only functions after the fact.

The dead is still dead, the raped still raped, and the immigrant still an immigrant.

Doesn't work.

Due process only functions after the fact.

The dead is still dead, the raped still raped, and the immigrant still an immigrant.

That doesn't render the law invalid.

Doesn't work.

Due process only functions after the fact.

The dead is still dead, the raped still raped, and the immigrant still an immigrant.

That was in response to justice being given to the man who killed a man to defend his child.

What exactly are you trying to prove by popping my quote in there?

:( no.

he didn't even go to jail long.......

Then maybe ... just maybe ... we should think of something new?

I genuinely feel for your plight, but don't hide behind the useless words of a legislator.

Action speaks louder than laws.

So because people still choose to commit crimes it makes the law invalid?

Invalid and useless. The law protects nobody.

Invalid and useless. The law protects nobody.

It reduces he level of crime by imprisoning those willing to break laws made to protect others (in some cases). It must protect some people as a result

Invalid and useless. The law protects nobody.

The Law is more like a bunch of guidelines, than actual rules..

Parsley.

Then maybe ... just maybe ... we should think of something new?

I genuinely feel for your plight, but don't hide behind the useless words of a legislator.

Action speaks louder than laws.

whats your solution? for me to go over to his house and shoot him?

Invalid and useless. The law protects nobody.
Laws give the state the ability to take children out of abusive homes. Laws remove dangerous people from the street. Laws serve to deter people from committing crimes.

Just because the system isn't perfect, it doesn't mean it should be done away with.

whats your solution? for me to go over to his house and shoot him?

Yes, with a gun. Since there are no laws, you will not be punished.

a

It reduces he level of crime by imprisoning those willing to break laws made to protect others (in some cases). It must protect some people as a result

Really? Check the criminal records in the United States.

A vast majority are there for what .... a little marijuana?

So dangerous ...

10 years for a joint, 3 years probation for rape.

Yeah ... tell me that's not flawed.

The law protects nobody.

and then there are the astronomical costs involved

And when exactly did you immigrate to America? It costs $260 hardly astronomical. My mother came to this country after ALL laws first and didn't have any problems. If illegal immigrants have nothing to hide they would do it legally like my mother did.

whats your solution? for me to go over to his house and shoot him?

Might make you feel better.

If you were my daughter, I'd have done it myself.

whats your solution? for me to go over to his house and shoot him?

Nah, just set his house on fire and kill his puppy.

Really? Check the criminal records in the United States.

A vast majority are there for what .... a little marijuana?

So dangerous ...

10 years for a joint, 3 years probation for rape.

Yeah ... tell me that's not flawed.

The law protects nobody.

So there are what you consider bad laws? That doesn't make every law bad

Might make you feel better.

If you were my daughter, I'd have done it myself.

Easy to say without it happening though isn't it

Laws give the state the ability to take children out of abusive homes.

Define "abusive".

Some people say a spanking is abuse.

Define "abusive".

Some people say a spanking is abuse.

Putting out cigarrettes on a childs feet. How about that one

No really, what is so special about your country that other people shouldn't be allowed to move there freely?[/QUOTE]

If yours is so great why aren't they going there?

Putting out cigarrettes on a childs feet. How about that one

Shows a lack of creativity.

However, I do believe in the protection of children. I have 5 children myself.

The law doesn't protect them, though ... I do.

And I will until I'm dead, regardless of their age.

Define "abusive".

Some people say a spanking is abuse.

I think you are missing the point.

Here it is. No country has a perfect legal system. It's better than nothing, and most strive to make their legal system as good as they can.

More to the point. This is a stupid conversation to have unless you can propose something better.

Putting out cigarrettes on a childs feet. How about that one

Hrm... good idea...:cool:





Just kidding..

Really. I don't even have kids.

I swear!

Shows a lack of creativity.

However, I do believe in the protection of children. I have 5 children myself.

The law doesn't protect them, though ... I do.

And I will until I'm dead, regardless of their age.

Its a lot easier to protect them when there are fewer threats out there though. If there arent as many violent criminals out there you have more of a chance in succeeding at your protective role

Laws are made out of fear.

If you can't see that, I'm sorry.
I disagree. Not all laws are made out of fear. Actually, I think only a minority are.

You could have gone with "a desire for control", that would have covered more legislation.
How? What are you afraid of? Explain.
I'm not afraid of very much concerning immigration, but I guess you could say the country, society and government is. There is a need for control over who enters the country. We need to be able to turn away habitual criminals, for example, as they could pose a threat to those who already live here. There is also a point that the society wishes to protect it's social services from abuse. We wish to let people who are willing to contribute and who are in danger come to the country, while keeping out those who use the system only to take and give nothing back. They would only hurt the ones who are already here.

That's the short and inaccurate answer.
The law protects nobody.
Yes, actually, it does. The preventive effect is underestimated here. Most people try to abide by the laws. Which is why they drive on the right side of the road, don't dump toxic waste in water supplies, and don't shoplift frequently. Of course it happens, but without laws enforcing the morals and values we place highly in the society... Well, less people would be protected.

Of course, if you mean "the law alone, without an enforcing government" you might be right.

More to the point. This is a stupid conversation to have unless you can propose something better.

I can.

White people need to stop being afraid of darker people.

The current immigration laws come from white folks being terrified of Mexicans.

Once the white people stop being afraid, they'll stop trying to protect their country from brown people.

The fear stems from the fact that they stole the country from brown people and they're scared the brown people will take it back.

Stop fearing brown people!

I can.

White people need to stop being afraid of darker people.

The current immigration laws come from white folks being terrified of Mexicans.

Once the white people stop being afraid, they'll stop trying to protect their country from brown people.

The fear stems from the fact that they stole the country from brown people and they're scared the brown people will take it back.

Stop fearing brown people!

No..no...no no no no no.

Not for me atleast.(is that one word?)

I am 'afraid', more like annoyed, that there are people coming into the country to leech the system without paying anything back. They can be 'black', 'white', or the 'yellow peril', and I will be equally irked.

I can.

White people need to stop being afraid of darker people.

The current immigration laws come from white folks being terrified of Mexicans.

Once the white people stop being afraid, they'll stop trying to protect their country from brown people.

The fear stems from the fact that they stole the country from brown people and they're scared the brown people will take it back.

Stop fearing brown people!

So, these immigration laws that were on the books long before the Mexicans started migrating here were written because white people feared Mexicans?

Its a lot easier to protect them when there are fewer threats out there though. If there arent as many violent criminals out there you have more of a chance in succeeding at your protective role

Define "threat".

This isn't the middle ages where a visigoth can come snatch your baby.

Sure, some humans suck, but we can find them and destroy them on our own.

Unfortunately we live in an air conditioned, World of Warcraft, grocery store society and have forgotten how to take care of our own.

Define "threat".

This isn't the middle ages where a visigoth can come snatch your baby.

Sure, some humans suck, but we can find them and destroy them on our own.

Unfortunately we live in an air conditioned, World of Warcraft, grocery store society and have forgotten how to take care of our own.

How would you prove their guilt. The system you want is vigilantism?

By threat I mean someone that would cause physical harm to another person

I am 'afraid', more like annoyed, that there are people coming into the country to leech the system without paying anything back. They can be 'black', 'white', or the 'yellow peril', and I will be equally irked.

If you can show me one way you have been hurt through one Mexican crossing the border, then I will listen.

Just one way. Come on. Has he killed your kid? Has he stolen your road laying job? Just one way.

How has Pepe hurt you?

Define "threat".

This isn't the middle ages where a visigoth can come snatch your baby.

Sure, some humans suck, but we can find them and destroy them on our own.

Unfortunately we live in an air conditioned, World of Warcraft, grocery store society and have forgotten how to take care of our own.

*shakes you violently*

Stay the Course!

Stay the Course!!!!!

You claim that the fear of 'Brown People' is the reason we have immigration laws. You are Wrong.

Define "threat".

This isn't the middle ages where a visigoth can come snatch your baby.

Sure, some humans suck, but we can find them and destroy them on our own.

Unfortunately we live in an air conditioned, World of Warcraft, grocery store society and have forgotten how to take care of our own.
Fortunately, you mean. I like having laws around. I like not living in fear. I like knowing that the government will be able to protect me and take care of me should I need it.

And most of all, I don't like vigilanteism and anarchy.

Yes.

People should take care of their own.

So you're against all form of immigration then?

How would you prove their guilt. The system you want is vigilantism?

Yes.

People should take care of their own.

Yes.

People should take care of their own.

A much less fair system you want there. Not necessarily one that would keep you safer either. Just one that gives you direct control over the outcome of a situation.

If you can show me one way you have been hurt through one Mexican crossing the border, then I will listen.

Just one way. Come on. Has he killed your kid? Has he stolen your road laying job? Just one way.

How has Pepe hurt you?

By incresing my taxes. I have to pay extra into the system for "Pepe's" kids to go to school. It's an unfair burden.

*shakes you violently*


Eek! Don't shake me ... I might vomit!

There is no such thing as an "illegal" immigrant. Until you prove - beyond your Bible - that there is, then I will not accept your argument.

"My" Bible? It doesn't mean any more to me than it apparently does to you. And if someone enters this country illegally, than they are an illegal immigrant. It doesn't matter if you "accept it" or not.

Nah, just set his house on fire and kill his puppy.

The guy's the guilty one, not the innocent little puppy. And would I rather murder a rapist than kill a puppy, yes, I would.

White people need to stop being afraid of darker people.

The current immigration laws come from white folks being terrified of Mexicans.

Once the white people stop being afraid, they'll stop trying to protect their country from brown people.

The fear stems from the fact that they stole the country from brown people and they're scared the brown people will take it back.

Stop fearing brown people!

What a load of disingenuous "Let's play the race card to win an argument we can't win with logic and common sense because we don't have any!" crap. An illegal immigrant is an illegal immigrant whether he is from Mexico, Canada, or Sweden. This has nothing to do with "white people being afraid of brown people", and I frankly doubt that you truly believe it does. I am not afraid of "brown people", nor do I live in mind-numbing paranoid terror of illegal aliens coming to my house and slaughtering my parents, my boyfriend, etc.

I am 'afraid', more like annoyed, that there are people coming into the country to leech the system without paying anything back. They can be 'black', 'white', or the 'yellow peril', and I will be equally irked.

^ what they said

By incresing my taxes. I have to pay extra into the system for "Pepe's" kids to go to school. It's an unfair burden.

White Man's Burden sucks ass ....

When, oh when, will White people catch a break?

White Man's Burden sucks ass ....

When, oh when, will White people catch a break?

Only white people pay taxes?

White Man's Burden sucks ass ....

When, oh when, will White people catch a break?

Just keep playing the race card to deflect focus away from the actual issue, nice trademark of someone who either has no actual argument and/or is a hypocritical coward who is afraid of an honest debate.

"My" Bible? It doesn't mean any more to me than it apparently does to you. And if someone enters this country illegally, than they are an illegal immigrant. It doesn't matter if you "accept it" or not.

You only say that because your Bible is the "Law".

Torah, Koran, whatever ... your Bible is the "Law".

Just words on paper that nobody has to believe.

So our choice is we can totally open the borders of the nations and labor will migrate to the best paying. The flood of labor will lower the living standard for the poorest and weakest of that nation until all nations reach a lowest common denominator at which time there is a small elite in the world and a massive poor. But all of the poor of the world will be at the same level. No relative poor because you live in a rich nation. The poor of the world will even out.

Or nations with stronger economies and better life styles, even for their poorest can limit the availability of labor thereby driving up the cost of labor, creating a middle class, and having a poor that aren't as poor as the poor in the poorest of nations.

For the last 25 years+ the US has chosen to open the borders and flood the country with labor, thereby driving down the cost of labor to the richest at the cost of the poorest and weakest. This has also provided a relief valve for those nations that keep their poor as poor as possible. Thereby keeping unrest down in those nations so that the government of those nations need not begin reforms that would aid their poor.

"Follow the Money" who is gaining from open borders. It's not the poor of the nation. It's not even the immigrants that are driving wages down to unlivable levels. The money is going to the rich that now pay $10/hr for a job that was double that 25 years ago.

Only white people pay taxes?

They're the only ones who complain about it. ;)

They're the only ones who complain about it. ;)

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with that. I find it very difficult to believe that complaining about taxes is a race thing. Then again no-one I know has ever talked about taxes in detail so maybe i'm just being silly ;)

If you can show me one way you have been hurt through one Mexican crossing the border, then I will listen.

Just one way. Come on. Has he killed your kid? Has he stolen your road laying job? Just one way.

How has Pepe hurt you?

Do I have to personally experience every hardship of the world, to imagine its effects?
(psst.. it isn't 'one mexican' it is multiple people, of all ethnicities)

I could lie and say he raped my goat. But I don't have a goat. Asking me for a personal anecdote is not only a waste of time, but ineffective. I can lie to make my point if I want to.

When a considerable amount of people use resources that other people are paying for, and do not pay for them themselves.. that is called theft. Since you are a vigilante(love that word), we should ride out and blast them where they stand.

Eek! Don't shake me ... I might vomit!

Good idea.

I've had enough of your spewage as it is.:p

When a considerable amount of people use resources that other people are paying for, and do not pay for them themselves.. that is called theft. Since you are a vigilante(love that word), we should ride out and blast them where they stand.

Pobrecito!

I'd like to know how anyone immigrating to the US has been a bad thing.

We're the bestest, richest, most amazing country in the world!

How has even 1 million Pepes hurt us?

Come on ... reality time!

How has even 1 million Pepes hurt us?

Sucking up our resources without contributing anything in return. Like, oh I dunno....leeches?

Sucking up our resources without contributing anything in return. Like, oh I dunno....leeches?

Rofl!!!

Nothing in return?

Remember that next time you eat a taco.

Rofl!!!

Nothing in return?

Remember that next time you eat a taco.

But why should one group of a society contribute more (abilities and taxes) while another only contributes abilities?

I'd like to know how anyone immigrating to the US has been a bad thing.



It isn't.

Immigrating illegally...is.

Such as; you come to the country, use all the facilities and benefits at your disposal, and pay nothing, while tax-paying citizens pay for your expenses.

Remember that next time you eat a taco.

Just because someone is Mexican doesn't mean they're an illegal immigrant.
Just because someone is an illegal immigrant doesn't mean they're Mexican.
You're probably a ten-year-old white girl.

If you can show me one way you have been hurt through one Mexican crossing the border, then I will listen.

Just one way. Come on. Has he killed your kid? Has he stolen your road laying job? Just one way.

How has Pepe hurt you?

That's very easy. I answered a way back but you may have missed it.

In 1980 the average slaughter house job paid $17/hr. Americans stood in line to get the jobs. Generations made their way from poor to middle class cutting meat. They earned enough to send the next generation to college. Today that same job pays $10/hr and the companies complain that an American won't take the job so they must hire illegals. Have you seen the cost of meat fall with the falling wages? Can "Pepe" (as you call them) earn enough at $10/hr to send their children to college as was done in the past?

Labor like all else is supply and demand. Flood the supply and the cost goes down to the point where Wal-Mart issues pamphlets to new employees as to how to get food stamps, medicaid and other welfare while working for them.

Flooding the market with massive amounts of labor has hurt every working citizen. This can be easily observed by comparing "real wages", ie. inflation based, to those paid 30 years ago. (What would $17/hr be now? Certainly not $10/hr) The poor have gotten poorer and the middle have struggled to hold even, while the rich have benefited through lower taxes and cheap labor.

But why should one group of a society contribute more (abilities and taxes) while another only contributes abilities?

Abilities are all that matter.

You eat dinner, some farmer grew it.

You watch TV, some factory worker built it.

The computer you're posting with, some poor slob in a greasy jumpsuit built it. Maybe even an "illegal".

Without abilities, there would be no United States.

Abilities are all that matter.

You eat dinner, some farmer grew it.

You watch TV, some factory worker built it.

The computer you're posting with, some poor slob in a greasy jumpsuit built it. Maybe even an "illegal".

Without abilities, there would be no United States.

But then no-one should pay taxes rather than one group (tax payers) being unfairly discriminated against

I believe that illegal immigration restrictions should be lightened, but not just totally disregarded. People tend to forget that Illegals still need to pay taxes like the rest of us because most have a fake Identity. Also, Immigrants have made America what it is today!

That's very easy. I answered a way back but you may have missed it.

So what you're saying is that Americans shouldn't be so damn greedy.

I agree.

I grow most of my own food, have chickens, and cook for myself.

I can live off very, very little money.

What's the rest of ya'll's problems? Lazy?

Abilities are all that matter.

You eat dinner, some farmer grew it.

You watch TV, some factory worker built it.

The computer you're posting with, some poor slob in a greasy jumpsuit built it. Maybe even an "illegal".

Without abilities, there would be no United States.

Irrelevant. Chances are that farmer and factory worker aren't illegal immigrants.

Abilities are all that matter.

You eat dinner, some farmer grew it.

You watch TV, some factory worker built it.

The computer you're posting with, some poor slob in a greasy jumpsuit built it. Maybe even an "illegal".

Without abilities, there would be no United States.

You drive on the roads... some government agency paid a company to build it using taxes.

Oh noez! Money is the driving force! Government money comes mainly from taxes!

While I agree that abilities are all you need to survive(hunting, fishing, cooking, building shelter)..
abilities alone do not a country/economy/international power run.

Irrelevant. Chances are that farmer and factory worker aren't illegal immigrants.

I'll take that bet. A lot of the poor working class in this country don't have social security cards and are probably sending their pay to the family they have back in some other country.

The fact that anyone here believes a child should starve proves to me that Americans suck.

You drive on the roads

Actually, I have a horse.

I'll take that bet. A lot of the poor working class in this country don't have social security cards and are probably sending their pay to the family they have back in some other country.

The fact that anyone here believes a child should starve proves to me that Americans suck.

I am serious when I say this.

People need to stop having so many damned children.

Overpopulation is a serious issue... and if you are in dire straits, unable to even support a child legally.. don't have a child!

I realize there can be(and probably are) extenuating circumstances.. but the world in general needs to stop procreating so much.

The fact that anyone here believes a child should starve proves to me that Americans suck.

Who exactly said anything about believing children should starve? But that's just us heartless Americans, huh? :rolleyes:

So what you're saying is that Americans shouldn't be so damn greedy.

I agree.

I grow most of my own food, have chickens, and cook for myself.

I can live off very, very little money.

What's the rest of ya'll's problems? Lazy?

How in the world did you get that from what I wrote?

What I was talking about was supply and demand of the labor pool. The more people willing to bid on a job, the lower the wages go. The fewer people the higher the wages, the higher the living standard.

The balance is to allow immigration for those people where there is great demand and limited supply. Limit immigration where there is a large supply and less demand.

In other words we should give a green card to everyone with a college degree and export labor at the bottom where there is an oversupply driving down wages.

Actually, I have a horse.

That is actually pretty awesome..

In other words we should give a green card to everyone with a college degree and export labor at the bottom where there is an oversupply driving down wages.


Just the ones with college degrees, eh?

Do you have a college degree?

I'm asking everyone on this thread: Do you have a college degree?

I say throw everyone without a college degree out of the country. Same logic, eh?

Just the ones with college degrees, eh?

Do you have a college degree?

I'm asking everyone on this thread: Do you have a college degree?

I say throw everyone without a college degree out of the country. Same logic, eh?

Same logic as:

Keep everyone from entering the country illegally and leeching rescources?

That is actually pretty awesome..

She's a sweetheart. American Quarter Horse. A little ornery, but I like her.

Just the ones with college degrees, eh?

Do you have a college degree?

I'm asking everyone on this thread: Do you have a college degree?

I say throw everyone without a college degree out of the country. Same logic, eh?

We're not talking about American citizens, we are talking about illegal aliens who technically have no right to be here in the first place. So no, not same logic. Get that through your thick head.

Hey we should stop illegal immigration. They do not have fake ID's. thye cross illegally and should be punished. I dont care how much Jose wants to be in america. he should live with what he has. people in america are poor too. the only thing wrong is that a lot of americans wont get off their lazy asses and do any sort of work. It is also the complete stupidity of americans. the freakin hobos low their cash on beer, drugs, and cigarettes. Anyway, Jose, you stay where you werre born, and let us solve our labor problems. or just pay ur freakin taxes.

I am serious when I say this.

People need to stop having so many damned children.

Overpopulation is a serious issue... and if you are in dire straits, unable to even support a child legally.. don't have a child!

I realize there can be(and probably are) extenuating circumstances.. but the world in general needs to stop procreating so much.

This is exactly what started the China boom. It's also what brought Europe out of the dark ages. Europe did it with the plague. China did it with one child. The result of both was to consolidate the wealth. With a consolidation of the wealth individuals could start businesses.

We're not talking about American citizens, we are talking about illegal aliens who technically have no right to be here in the first place. So no, not same logic. Get that through your thick head.

Oh ... so American citizens are the only people on the planet allowed to work and feed their kids and make a better life for themselves?

Typical.

Oh ... so American citizens are the only people on the planet allowed to work and feed their kids and make a better life for themselves?


Not the only people on the planet, but within the United States, yes, only legal citizens should be allowed to live here.

You know... you are all dodging the real issue here.

Emigration.

It is a well hidden, but widely known fact, that the large ego of the average USian combined with the palish exterior of the epidermis, is all that keeps the landmass alive. Without the extra mass, the country would not only float free from its moorings on the Earth's crust, but the loss of the sickly melanin would caused intense rays to be absorbed by the landmass instead of reflected. This would have the dual terror of floating free the continental U.S, and heating it to temperature which would cause the water beneath it to bubble and...thence/heretofore, the trapped gasess would eventually reach a pressure high enough to explode with force, suitable to launching the U.S. of no longer A, into orbit.

Not the only people on the planet, but within the United States, yes, only legal citizens should be allowed to live here.

That's a sad attitude you got there. Hope it works for ya.

I assume you're also against the US policing the world. If you're all for the war in Iraq, your whole argument is null.

After all, only Americans get good things.

You know... you are all dodging the real issue here.

Emigration.

It is a well hidden, but widely known fact, that the large ego of the average USian combined with the palish exterior of the epidermis, is all that keeps the landmass alive. Without the extra mass, the country would not only float free from its moorings on the Earth's crust, but the loss of the sickly melanin would caused intense rays to be absorbed by the landmass instead of reflected. This would have the dual terror of floating free the continental U.S, and heating it to temperature which would cause the water beneath it to bubble and...thence/heretofore, the trapped gasess would eventually reach a pressure high enough to explode with force, suitable to launching the U.S. of no longer A, into orbit.

I lol'd ;)

That's a sad attitude you got there. Hope it works for ya.

Works just fine, thanks. I don't really see what's so wrong with thinking only citizens of a country should live in the country.

I assume you're also against the US policing the world.

Yes.


If you're all for the war in Iraq, your whole argument is null.

I am totally against the war in Iraq.

After all, only Americans get good things.

Whether other countries get good things is their concern, it's not our job to provide them.

Just the ones with college degrees, eh?

Do you have a college degree?

I'm asking everyone on this thread: Do you have a college degree?

I say throw everyone without a college degree out of the country. Same logic, eh?

As a matter of fact, I have a Master's Degree.

Not every job needs a degree but we have a High School drop out rate of around 25%. They are the people that need to be protected. There are enough of them to handle the jobs at that level with living wages. Flood the market and you have the poor getting poorer because supply and demand drops the wages.

On the other hand. The people with college degrees will be the ones that create the majority of new products that will create the majority of new wealth. Those people we have a shortage of.

Whether other countries get good things is their concern, it's not our job to provide them.

The force is strong with this one. I like him. (her?)

However, we have so much in this country ... what's wrong with sharing it?

The force is strong with this one. I like him. (her?)

I'm a he.

Whether other countries get good things is their concern, it's not our job to provide them.

The force is strong with this one. I like him. (her?)

However, we have so much in this country ... what's wrong with sharing it?

Oh ... so American citizens are the only people on the planet allowed to work and feed their kids and make a better life for themselves?

Typical.

Do you seriously equate the USA as the ONLY place in the world where this is possible, or is this just empty rhetoric for its own sake?

White Man's Burden sucks ass ....

When, oh when, will White people catch a break?

First of all, half my family is Mexican. My grandparents crossed the border. They worked hard to get citizenship, but they were orignially here illegally. So don't pull the race card with me.

Secondly, I've never ran into the "Check here if you are non-white and therefore don't have to pay taxes" box on my IRS forms.

Thirdly, you need to pay into the system you use. End of story.

I'm a he.

Stop answering messages before they're posted!

;)

Do you seriously equate the USA as the ONLY place in the world where this is possible, or is this just empty rhetoric for its own sake?

It was a reponse. Follow the thread or gtfo. :p

Stop answering messages before they're posted!

"He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It's a Jedi trait..."

Neo Bretonnia, as before...

Amen.

This is a public service announcement on behalf of exasperated people who are capable of reading.

People who oppose ILLEGAL immigration do NOT (normally) oppose LEGAL immigration.

Nobody on this thread who has agrued against illegal immigration is against legal immigration. In fact, we've taken pains to repeat this over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

If, in order to make an argument, you have to create this strawman, then your argument is weak and you're just wasting people's time.

If you just can't read, you're wasting people's time.

Don't be a troll.

Thank you.

This is a public service announcement on behalf of exasperated people who are capable of reading.

People who oppose ILLEGAL immigration do NOT (normally) oppose LEGAL immigration.

Nobody on this thread who has agrued against illegal immigration is against legal immigration. In fact, we've taken pains to repeat this over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over etc etc etc.

If, in order to make an argument, you have to create this strawman, then your argument is weak and you're just wasting people's time.

If you just can't read, you're wasting people's time.

Don't be a troll.

Thank you.

God Bless America.


(but only the continental part, Hawiiluhula isn't really...you know..with us..)

:p

A weak one, too. It appears to me that you were distorting Leeladojie's argument, why?

Leeladoje is a Jedi. To distort is to try and bend him towards the Dark Side.

*lightning fingers and disco*

It was a reponse. Follow the thread or gtfo. :p

A weak one, too. It appears to me that you were distorting Leeladojie's argument, why?

God Bless America.


(but only the continental part, Hawiiluhula isn't really...you know..with us..)

:p

rotfl

A weak one, too. It appears to me that you were distorting Leeladojie's argument, why?

Because I love him that much.

Pay attention!

awww I'm sorry Keruvalia, but I'm taken

Because I love him that much.

Pay attention!

SIR, YES SIR!

Are we at page 20 yet?

awww I'm sorry Keruvalia, but I'm taken

THrEaD!! De GEn Er A Tion!
Bless Ing to teh Nation(states)
Threeeeeeadddd De Gen eration!
Blessing to the Naaaaation!

By your sweetheart American Quarterhorse.... taken by your sweetheart Keruvalia!

The Torment!
:cool:

awww I'm sorry Keruvalia, but I'm taken

D'oh! *stumbles away from the thread*

Are we at page 20 yet?

Waiting for the Spam, are we? ;)

Waiting for the Spam, are we? ;)
Pretty much, yeah.

There's only so much I can stomach of these threads.


I guess we could get the party started early....

Waiting for the Spam, are we? ;)

Waitin'?

S'already hear!

Illegal immigration: against.
Legal immigration: all for it.

Illegal immigration: against.
Legal immigration: all for it.

Where were ya roun' ten pages back?

Where were ya roun' ten pages back?

Wisely staying out of it.

Illegal immigration: against.
Legal immigration: all for it.
Against illegal immigration, but have to admit that I understand WHY they come illegally.

USCIS decided to double the fees needed to get a green card. Just to apply for one is now going to cost $1,010 (US)!

Against illegal immigration, but have to admit that I understand WHY they come illegally.

USCIS decided to double the fees needed to get a green card. Just to apply for one is now going to cost $1,010 (US)!

Yes, that will solve all problems. Let's make it even harder to come here legally.

Only if you follow the 10 Commandments - which I don't.

Laws are made out of fear.

If you can't see that, I'm sorry.
There is good reason to fear a person who would harm you, usually when you're least aware.

A person may kill another, but only laws call him a murderer.

What if he killed a person who was trying to harm his child? Is he still a "murderer"?

You leap to illogical conclusions in my argument. However, you're still alive and, thus, have never been the victim of a "murderer" ... so what are you afraid of?
Murder by definition is intentionally killing someone. Preventing them from doing so and in the course killing them is not.

I think the OP was right being illegal immigrant is bad because illegals leech off of our system and become millionaires without doing any work. Illegals make up the top 10% of our income bracket because of all that leeching they do.

Ok, see this is why it's pointless to carry this exchange any further. I've already made exactly that point. I said earlier that the immigration system needed work to make it easier for people to immigrate to the US legally. It was in my first post. Now, if you're going to take me to task for something I've said, I ask that you take the time to first make sure that you actually disagree, rather than just looking for a fight to pick.We don't agree, unless in the process of making it easier, you agree that all immigration should be made legal.

Why do I have to come up with something better than that? It's THE LAW. Illegal immigrants are i-l-l-e-g-a-l

il·le·gal (ĭ-lē'gəl) Pronunciation Key
adj.

1. Prohibited by law.
2. Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football.
3. Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer: an illegal operation.

If the law is flawed, then it needs to be revised, not tossed out the window for a free-for-all on our national borders.Simply because something is illegal doesn't make it bad.
Only Congress has the power to revise (or in this case, repeal) laws. We are not Congress, so we can't do that. We can, however, oppose unjust laws.

We can, however, oppose unjust laws.

What is unjust about protecting the poorest and weakest of our society?

What is unjust is ignoring the laws for 25 years until millions of people's lives would be effected by the enforcement of those laws. On the other hand those millions agreed by their actions in breaking the law to put themselves in a situation where their lives could be so disrupted. So the cause is a mutual one between administrations that ignored enforcement and those that broke a just law and now don't want to pay the cost of that illegal action.

If everyone is speeding down the road is no excuse for you to speed down the road. If you are the only one caught, "there were millions doing it" is no excuse.

What is unjust about protecting the poorest and weakest of our society?

What is just about oppressing some of the poorest and weakest of our society because they happen to have been born south of the border?

What is just about oppressing some of the poorest and weakest of our society because they happen to have been born south of the border?

They really aren't part of our society. *snobbish sniff*
:p

What is just about oppressing some of the poorest and weakest of our society because they happen to have been born south of the border?

Part of justice is not volunteering to break the law and thereby become a criminal. Justice is following the laws.

In fact, even the Bible requires that people obey the civil laws. So it's not just a crime, it's a sin.

Justice is following the laws.

No. Justice is acting justly.

Which means following the law when it's just... but not necessarily when it's not.

In fact, even the Bible requires that people obey the civil laws. So it's not just a crime, it's a sin.

What the Bible says is not a relevant factor in what is moral.

I oppose illegal immigration, but I also oppose red tape that makes it difficult for people to immigrate here legally.

Justice is following the laws.

you don't actually think this, do you?

Part of justice is not volunteering to break the law and thereby become a criminal. Justice is following the laws.

In fact, even the Bible requires that people obey the civil laws. So it's not just a crime, it's a sin.

NO.


Even the founding fathers of this country recognized that not all laws were to be followed. They recognized the need for civil disobedience. Even direct criminal behavior, even sedition.

Your Standard at work:
Martin Luther King Jr(Criminal, and promoter of Crime)--Not a champion of Justice because the Law wasnt on his side most of the time.
Ghandi(Criminal) Not a champion of Justice because the Law wasnt on his side most of the time.
Nelson Mandela(Crimnal) Not a champion of Justice because the Law wasnt on his side most of the time.
Rosa Parks(Criminal)Not a champion of Justice because the Law wasnt on his side most of the time.

Or
Internment of American Japanese during WWII(Justice at work, at least according to the law)
Up until the 1950s-1960s US Blacks are legally segregated based soley on skin color--Jim Crow Laws--(Justice at work)


And the Bible doesnt tell you obey every civil law. If the law defies God's Law then it is not to be obeyed.

Treat others, as you would be treated....I myself would hope notto be jailed because I wanted a better life for my family so I went to where the jobs were.

Justice, has nothing to do with paper Laws.