NationStates Jolt Archive

Again, I am making this because thread because Iran news threads around here just become FreedomAndGlory conservative hack jobs, and no one looks into it. Again, if anyone actually read the Iranian Presidents comments, or even a source not so blatantly anti-Iranian as Spiegel has been for months (just read their other articles on the Iranian Pres etc). Ahmadinejad is not threatening 'Israel' with destruction, he refers specifically to the occupying Zionist regime, that is the political bulwark of reaction that has fortified itself within the modern state of Israel, individuals who wish to segregate, deport, imprison, extort and fine the 20% Arab minority currently living in Israel, furthermore who started and continue to perpetuate the endless circles of violence in the West Bank and elsewhere in the region. These politicians continue to build West Bank 'settlements' colonies in fact against all the agreements they have made with the Palestinians and indeed the whole world, who in fact support Irgun-like jewish terrorist colonists in the west bank in terrorizing the Palestinian people and creeping their settlements ever closer to annexation. Who can support such a regime, I myself support the erasing of this nationalsozialistische deutsche arbeiterpartei and gestapo type Zionist regime.

It's strange how the conservative elements of different cultures tend to hate each other's guts and spout fiery rhetoric aimed at defaming the other while the liberal elements seem to get on a whole lot better

I find it not only amusing but a vindication of my liberal views

Most. Pointless. Thread. Ever.

And in order to make it worthwhile, here's a good story on Israel, the Palestinians and the 6-Day-War:
Israel's wasted victory (http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9225670)

I myself support the erasing of this nationalsozialistische deutsche arbeiterpartei and gestapo type Zionist regime.Your logic has a small problem there - if they were as bad as you claim they are, they'd a) not have many arabs remaining within their territory, and b) not have a muslim minister (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raleb_Majadele) in their cabinet.

Now, if you could please inform me of any arab countries with jewish ministers in their cabinets?

And while you're at it, you might want to check out the circumstances of the jewish minorities in assorted arab countries, and compare them with the situation in Israel...

It might enlighten you for a bit.

Your logic has a small problem there - if they were as bad as you claim they are, they'd a) not have many arabs remaining within their territory, and b) not have a muslim minister (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raleb_Majadele) in their cabinet.

Now, if you could please inform me of any arab countries with jewish ministers in their cabinets?

And while you're at it, you might want to check out the circumstances of the jewish minorities in assorted arab countries, and compare them with the situation in Israel...

It might enlighten you for a bit.

How about the orthodox Jews who attended that meeting with the Iranian Pres, and who oppose the Zionist regime?

How about the orthodox Jews who attended that meeting with the Iranian Pres, and who oppose the Zionist regime?You do realise that the average (Fundi) orthodox Jew has issues not with Israel's existence but with Israel being a secular state with something reasonably close to western standards of democracy and human rights, yes? They'd be perfectly happy with a properly theocratic Israel that'd go all Joshua on any non-Jews in and around Israel. Their cooperation with assorted Arab/ Muslim (Not the same thing, as every Iranian will tell you if you make the mistake of calling him or her an Arab) is entirely practical - the Arabs like having some showcase Jews going against Israel, the fundi Jews have a partner against Israel (And I suspect they're rather into the idea of a secular Israel being smashed giving rise to a proper theocracy, and Jahweh delivering them).

But hey - if you consider them to be your partners for humanity... Sure.

this nationalsozialistische deutsche arbeiterpartei and gestapo type Zionist regime.

I just love it when people compare Israël with the nazis...

just because someone does something unjustifiable doesn't make them nazis...

You do realise that the average (Fundi) orthodox Jew has issues not with Israel's existence but with Israel being a secular state with something reasonably close to western standards of democracy and human rights, yes? They'd be perfectly happy with a properly theocratic Israel that'd go all Joshua on any non-Jews in and around Israel. Their cooperation with assorted Arab/ Muslim (Not the same thing, as every Iranian will tell you if you make the mistake of calling him or her an Arab) is entirely practical - the Arabs like having some showcase Jews going against Israel, the fundi Jews have a partner against Israel (And I suspect they're rather into the idea of a secular Israel being smashed giving rise to a proper theocracy, and Jahweh delivering them).

But hey - if you consider them to be your partners for humanity... Sure.

No, they have a problem with the Zionist regime existing full stop.

No, they have a problem with the Zionist regime existing full stop.'They' being an infinitesimal minority, of course.

Fact remains - you're somehow saying that a nation that lets the minority in question vote, that has this minority hold cabinet positions, that is neither moving nor killing this minority, that lets this minority work...

That such a nation is just as evil as a nation that removes citizenship from such a minority and that kills them en masse.

You fail at intelligence and enter the realm of the mentally retarded. Congrats.

I further note that you've failed to provide evidence of Israel's neighbors having anything even remotely approaching the level of equality arabs enjoy in Israel - I'm very sorry, but the Iranian president allowing an orthodox who happens to basically quote said president is not the same as allowing opposition parties, full stop.

I'll take this as a minor concession.

No, they have a problem with the Zionist regime existing full stop.
You're both not fully correct.

They reckon that the Old Testament says that the Jews will get their land when the Messiah comes to earth and basically ends it as we know it. As such Israel would be a gift from God. This Israel is obviously man-made, and that's what they take issue with.

That's a fringe group though, holding a view that isn't particularly common in Israel. So they're not representative...the reference to them isn't much more than a Red Herring.

How about the orthodox Jews who attended that meeting with the Iranian Pres, and who oppose the Zionist regime?

Uh, those orthodox Jews said that stopping genocide was blasphemy because it went against God's divine will. You don't really want to use them to back up an argument.

Ahmadinejad is not threatening 'Israel' with destruction, he refers specifically to the occupying Zionist regime, that is the political bulwark of reaction that has fortified itself within the modern state of Israel, individuals who wish to segregate, deport, imprison, extort and fine the 20% Arab minority currently living in Israel

Given that there are Arabs in the Cabinet and Supreme Court they're clearly not suceeding...

How about the orthodox Jews who attended that meeting with the Iranian Pres, and who oppose the Zionist regime?

'That meeting' was a conference on Holocaust deniers as well you know. Other guests included the former head of the Klu Klux Klan.

But hey - if you consider them to be your partners for humanity... Sure.

Given that AP was defending the Russian Neo-Nazis who attacked a gay-rights march a few days ago it wouldn't surprise me...

Given that there are Arabs in the Cabinet and Supreme Court they're clearly not suceeding...

And in the Knesset I believe.

By the way, isn't whether Ahmadinejad wishes to destroy the state itself or the people mostly irrelevant? How, exactly, is he going to destroy the state without the people becoming a teeny little obstacle in the way?

And in the Knesset I believe.

Indeed, there's even a party which supports the disestablishment of Israel. Hardly a autocratic state is it?

By the way, isn't whether Ahmadinejad wishes to destroy the state itself or the people mostly irrelevant? How, exactly, is he going to destroy the state without the people becoming a teeny little obstacle in the way?Maybe he'll ask them nicely to surrender? Everyone who agrees gets a little flower bouquet from an Iranian schoolgirl, and a 'Thank you!' note from Ali Khamenei.

Indeed, there's even a party which supports the disestablishment of Israel. Hardly a autocratic state is it?

Indeed. Gotta love a state in the Middle East that allows for dissent. That is more than I can say for Syria and Saudi Arabia.

Maybe he'll ask them nicely to surrender? Everyone who agrees gets a little flower bouquet from an Iranian schoolgirl, and a 'Thank you!' note from Ali Khamenei.

Or an invitation to the next Holocaust denial conference. :p

Your logic has a small problem there - if they were as bad as you claim they are, they'd a) not have many arabs remaining within their territory, and b) not have a muslim minister (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raleb_Majadele) in their cabinet.

Now, if you could please inform me of any arab countries with jewish ministers in their cabinets?The only small probelm I see is the stupidity of your post.
Governments tend to be representative of the % of their populations.

Try Germany for example (I think you are from Germany)

Or an invitation to the next Holocaust denial conference. :pI like the image of the Iranian schoolgirl better. Fifty square centimetres of skin for each hand, and and another 75 square centimetres for the face - everything else is covered by thick layers of sheer BLACK.

I think I'll give her an Unheilig CD.

The only small probelm I see is the stupidity of your post.
Governments tend to be representative of the % of their populations.You're right, I'm stupid. As such, you'll have to explain to me how giving a minority the right to vote and the opportunity to enter the cabinet is exactly as bad as carrying them off to concentration camps and gassing them.

Which was, ya'know, the claim the OP made, and to which I replied.

So please, go on...?

I like the image of the Iranian schoolgirl better. Fifty square centimetres of skin for each hand, and and another 75 square centimetres for the face - everything else is covered by thick layers of sheer BLACK.

I think I'll give her an Unheilig CD.

Iranian Girls Gone Wild? (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=571_1180285812)

Don't worry about the tags, it's a parody. :D

You're right, I'm stupid. As such, you'll have to explain to me how giving a minority the right to vote and the opportunity to enter the cabinet is exactly as bad as carrying them off to concentration camps and gassing them.

Which was, ya'know, the claim the OP made, and to which I replied.

So please, go on...?I dont care what the OP posted.. I am replying to the stupidity in YOUR post, deal with it.

and BTW I see nothin wrong on the OP post, deal with it.

Iranian Girls Gone Wild? (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=571_1180285812)

Don't worry about the tags, it's a parody. :DOh yeah baby, that's the spirit...

Ahem.

Though in fairness, the burqa is not required in Iran - face is free game, so long as a headscarf is worn

I dont care what the OP posted.. I am replying to the stupidity in YOUR post, deal with it.Again, I agree - I'm stupid.

As such, you'll have to explain to me what part of it was actually stupid... I mean, where I am standing, comparing Israel's policy of granting arabs citizenship doesn't quite equate to gassing them en masse, but as you're obviously disagreeing, and hope to liberate the poor and oppressed masses of arabs from the terrifying terror of democracy, well...

Call me curious. I want to know why.

The only small probelm I see is the stupidity of your post.
Governments tend to be representative of the % of their populations.

Try Germany for example (I think you are from Germany)

Hmm, that's funny. I'm an Asian in Australia, and I haven't been sent to a concentration camp yet. I wonder why.

Hmm, that's funny. I'm an Asian in Australia, and I haven't been sent to a concentration camp yet. I wonder why.I am talking appointed Ministers you are talking Concentration camps. WTF?

You are not even close.
*hint* If you want to try to counter my post, at least follow the little green arrows, so at least you are related to my post*

The only small probelm I see is the stupidity of your post.
Governments tend to be representative of the % of their populations.

Try Germany for example (I think you are from Germany)
So? He's not the one being stupid.

I am talking appointed Ministers you are talking Concentration camps. WTF?

You are not even close.
*hint* If you want to try to counter my post, at least follow the little green arrows, so at least you are related to my post*

Andaras Prime: ISRAEL R EBIL NAZIS

Linker Niederrhein: If Israel was as bad as the Nazis and shoved Muslims in concentration camps, then they wouldn't have a Muslim minister in their cabinet...

You: No, that's stupid. Governments will oppress minorities.

Me: Um, I haven't been oppressed.

You: WTF, follow the green arrows...

So? He's not the one being stupid.My opinion on the subject is to be released on a need-to-know basis.

only I need to know. ;)

Who can support such a regime, I myself support the erasing of this nationalsozialistische deutsche arbeiterpartei and gestapo type Zionist regime.

Your logic has a small problem there - if they were as bad as you claim they are, they'd a) not have many arabs remaining within their territory, and b) not have a muslim minister in their cabinet.

The only small probelm I see is the stupidity of your post.
Governments tend to be representative of the % of their populations.

*hint* If you want to try to counter my post, at least follow the little green arrows, so at least you are related to my post*

*Pause*

*Uproarious Laughter*

*Pause*

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7742/zimvo7.jpg
You make me look competent.

Epic fail.

My opinion on the subject is to be released on a need-to-know basis.

only I need to know. ;)
Hamilay already said it.

Linker Niederrhein: If Israel was as bad as the Nazis and shoved Muslims in concentration camps, then they wouldn't have a Muslim minister in their cabinet...

You: No, that's stupid. Governments will oppress minorities.

Me: Um, I haven't been oppressed.

You: WTF, follow the green arrows...LOL I see you missed the context of my first post.. How fair-and-balanced of you.. He asked "why Arab Countries dont have Jewish Ministers."..

but since you are not able to repost that key phrase.. I will have to help you.. here I am reposting an exact duplicate of my very first post on this thread
(reposting post #21.. coming up) >>

Your logic has a small problem there - if they were as bad as you claim they are, they'd a) not have many arabs remaining within their territory, and b) not have a muslim minister (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raleb_Majadele) in their cabinet.

Now, if you could please inform me of any arab countries with jewish ministers in their cabinets?The only small probelm I see is the stupidity of your post.
Governments tend to be representative of the % of their populations.

Try Germany for example (I think you are from Germany)

LOL I see you missed the contest of my first post.. How fair-and-balanced of you.. He asked "why Arab Countries dont have Jewish Ministers."..We're forgetting that countries such as, lets say, Iraq expelled the vast majority of their Jews, aren't we?

And we can solve the issue pretty quickly - egypt has a christian population of ~ 10% and 36 cabinet positions (Woah...). How many of those are, oh, I don't know... coptic christs?

We're forgetting that countries such as, lets say, Iraq expelled the vast majority of their Jews, aren't we?

And we can solve the issue pretty quickly - egypt has a christian population of ~ 10% and 36 cabinet positions (Woah...). How many of those are, oh, I don't know... coptic christs?

Don't know about Egypt, but Iran has 10% of its population non-Muslim, expressly forbids non-Muslims reaching high government or military positions, and has 5/290 seats in the assembly for non-Muslims.

We're forgetting that countries such as, lets say, Iraq expelled the vast majority of their Jews, aren't we?
What? they had to expell them???

If I was a Jew living in Egypt I would move to Israel. Sooner than yesterday.
For starters the salaries are better in Israel than in Egypt.. and housing.. and school.. and hospitals.. and and (I am feeling like a kid at the candy shop ;)

Wouldnt you move to Israel from Egypt -in a hurry- if you were a Jew?
use you logic.

Don't know about Egypt, but Iran... has 5/290 seats in the assembly for non-Muslims.Is that a Quota mandated by the Iranian constitution..

Or is that how the Iranian people voted?
If its a quota, I condemn it.

I just love it when people compare Israël with the nazis...

just because someone does something unjustifiable doesn't make them nazis...

and just because they are not nazis it isnt that bad?

Is that the a Quota mandated by the Iranian constitution..

Or is that how the Iranian people voted?

What difference does it make?

Is that the a Quota mandated by the Iranian constitution..

Or is that how the Iranian people voted?
You convenientley forgot something....

What? they had to expell them???

If I was a Jew living in Egypt I would move to Israel. Sooner than yesterday.
For starters the salaries are better in Israel than in Egypt.. and housing.. and school.. and hospitals.. and and (I am feeling like a kid at the candy shop ;)

Wouldnt you move to Israel from Egypt -in a hurry- if you were a Jew?
use you logic.You know, I thought you were just stupid. Or maybe uninformed, although being uninformed in the information age suggests stupidity, anyway.

I was wrong.

As it is, you're simply an asshole trampling on the memory of the victims - we're talking about around a million displaced people here, IIRC, stripped of citizenship, homes, property, plus thousands dead - of arab persecution against jews.

And, well... There really isn't much reason to discuss such matters with assholes, now is there?

You convenientley forgot something....fine, I will repost the whole thing, and ask my question in a different way.
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Don't know about Egypt, but Iran has 10% of its population non-Muslim, expressly forbids non-Muslims reaching high government or military positions, and has 5/290 seats in the assembly for non-Muslims.you say "Iran has 5/290"?

Is that a Quota mandated by the Iranian constitution..

Or is that how the Iranian people voted?

Disclaimer: My reply is about your 5/290 statement..
as I am still looking into your other Military/Gov mandatory thingie..

satisfied HC Eredivisie?

It's mandated by the Iranian government.

I was wrong.indeed, You are trying to get Jews elected as Ministers in Iran.. but You do not have the voters.

and/or you are trying to get Jews appointed as Ministers in Arab countries.. which makes you look like an idiot.

fine, I will repost the whole thing, and ask my question in a different way.
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you say "Iran has 5/290"?

Is that a Quota mandated by the Iranian constitution..

Or is that how the Iranian people voted?

Disclaimer: My reply is about your 5/290 statement..
as I am still looking into your other Military/Gov mandatory thingie..

satisfied HC Eredivisie?
Yes, you may now think about what you say.

Yes, you may now think about what you say.good.
1000036th client satisfied by OcceaD INC. :D

indeed, You are trying to get Jews elected as Ministers in Iran.. but You do not have the voters.

and/or you are trying to get Jews elected as Ministers in Arab countries.. which makes you look like an idiot.
What you are doing is just pathetic.

I dont care what the OP posted.. I am replying to the stupidity in YOUR post, deal with it.

So tell me what part of his post was stupid?

and BTW I see nothin wrong on the OP post, deal with it.

Goes to show your anti-semitism.

you say "Iran has 5/290"?

Is that a Quota mandated by the Iranian constitution..

Or is that how the Iranian people voted?

Disclaimer: My reply is about your 5/290 statement..
as I am still looking into your other Military/Gov mandatory thingie..

satisfied HC Eredivisie?


There are to be two hundred seventy members of the Islamic Consultative Assembly which, keeping in view the human, political, geographic and other similar factors, may increase by not more than twenty for each ten-year period from the date of the national referendum of the year 1368 of the solar Islamic calendar. The Zoroastrians and Jews will each elect one representative; Assyrian and Chaldean Christians will jointly elect one representative; and Armenian Christians in the north and those in the south of the country will each elect one representative. The limits of the election constituencies and the number of representatives will be deter-mined by law.

Remember that all candidates for election must be approved by the Guardian council...

'They' being an infinitesimal minority, of course.

Fact remains - you're somehow saying that a nation that lets the minority in question vote, that has this minority hold cabinet positions, that is neither moving nor killing this minority, that lets this minority work...



They don't have the vote in the occupied territories, do they? And they've been occupied 40 years now.....


As such, you'll have to explain to me what part of it was actually stupid... I mean, where I am standing, comparing Israel's policy of granting arabs citizenship

All Arabs? Hmmmmm. What about the 800-1,000 Arab residents of Arab East Jerusalem who have their "residency" status revoked each year...?


As it is, you're simply an asshole trampling on the memory of the victims - we're talking about around a million displaced people here, IIRC, stripped of citizenship, homes, property, plus thousands dead - of arab persecution against jews

So every sephradic Jew who arrived between 1947 and 1967 arrived because of persecution and expulsion?

jewish terrorist colonists in the west bank in terrorizing the Palestinian people and creeping their settlements ever closer to annexation.

I just got a chance to lay an eye on a previously undisclosed map of proposed Palestinian territories in the two-state scenario. It looks like an archipelago. Every square-mile-and-smaller dump 'island' goes to Palestine, the rest of the 'ocean' including roads will be part of Israel. How's that for fair sharing?

(map was shown as part of a presentation on the conflict, can't give any references to it; sorry for that)

good.
1000036th client satisfied by OcceaD INC. :D
Already thought about it?

They don't have the vote in the occupied territories, do they? And they've been occupied 40 years now.....

Given that having the vote would entail being a citizen of Israel I can't see many wanting it.

Goes to show your anti-semitism.just nother day at the office for me, Lancaster (and others like him) call me: Nazi /Antisemite /Holocaust /Pinko /Commie /Pro-gun /anti-gun /Pro-abortion /anti-abortion /pro-gay/anti-gay /etc/etc etc..
My answer to all that crap/Godwinning is: "whatever"
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So tell me what part of his post was stupid? :rolleyes: for the 11th time (I am tired of babysitting)
"Jewish Ministers in Arab countries"

I just got a chance to lay an eye on a previously undisclosed map of proposed Palestinian territories in the two-state scenario. It looks like an archipelago. Every square-mile-and-smaller dump 'island' goes to Palestine, the rest of the 'ocean' including roads will be part of Israel. How's that for fair sharing?

(map was shown as part of a presentation on the conflict, can't give any references to it; sorry for that)

That sounds like the non-continous share out. The worst possible solution, as it creates a series of "bantustans" for Palestinians, isolated from one another. I think even the US came out against that one.

LOL I see you missed the context of my first post..

Oh we all got the context of Andras Prime's post. Only a complete idiot would not get the context.

How fair-and-balanced of you.. He asked "why Arab Countries dont have Jewish Ministers."..

Care to point where AP said that OcceanDrive?

but since you are not able to repost that key phrase.. I will have to help you.. here I am reposting an exact duplicate of my very first post on this thread
(reposting post #21.. coming up) >>

Oh brother.

What difference does it make?

Actually, it does make a difference.

Given that having the vote would entail being a citizen of Israel I can't see many wanting it.

O thats correct. But I think we know who controls those areas, and the resources therein.

And as it would lead to an Arab majority, you might find that its not nessecarily that unacceptable to the Palestinian side as it is to some on the Israeli.

indeed, You are trying to get Jews elected as Ministers in Iran.. but You do not have the voters.

and/or you are trying to get Jews appointed as Ministers in Arab countries.. which makes you look like an idiot.

I love select quotes from people. It makes me laugh very hard. You are giving me side aches from laughing so hard OcceanDrive.

They don't have the vote in the occupied territories, do they? And they've been occupied 40 years now.....

Most occupied territories do not have the right to vote in the nation that is occupying them. Look at the era of colonization for example.

It's mandated by the Iranian government.then it is wrong.
I am against that rule.
I am against any rule that disallow any candidate.

I think Arnold should be allowed to run.

just nother day at the office for me, Lancaster (and others like him) call me: Nazi /Antisemite /Holocaust /Pinko /Commie /Pro-gun /anti-gun /Pro-abortion /anti-abortion /pro-gay/anti-gay /etc/etc etc..
My answer to all that crap/Godwinning is: "whatever"
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I have seen enough of your posts to posulate the fact that you do not like Jews and would like them gone. That makes one an anti-semite. Sorry but I do call it as I see them.

:rolleyes: for the 11th time (I am tired of babysitting)
"Jewish Ministers in Arab countries"

Are there?

I have seen enough of your posts to posulate the fact that you do not like Jews and would like them gone. you can posulate whatever you want.. you can posulate the same lies a million times.. it does not make it true.

then it is wrong.
I am against that rule.
I am against any rule that disallow any candidate.

I think Arnold should be allowed to run.

Then you gotta change the Constitution and I am against that.

Then you gotta change the Constitution and I am against that.you being against me.. actually makes me more credible :D

thank you Lancaster. ;)

you being against me.. actually makes me more credible :D

thank you Lancaster. ;)

Yea right. :rolleyes:

And as it would lead to an Arab majority, you might find that its not nessecarily that unacceptable to the Palestinian side as it is to some on the Israeli.

It might be a form of the Prisoners' Dilemma:

If all the Palestinians became Israeli citizens then they'd be happy (because they'd be in power), but if enough refused to become Israelis (which isn't inconceivable) then those who chose to become Israelis would have given away their self-rule.

then it is wrong.
I am against that rule.
I am against any rule that disallow any candidate.

Would you describe Iran as a 'segregated' or, dare I say it, 'Nazi' country?

Would you describe Iran as a 'segregated' or, dare I say it, 'Nazi' country?No.

No.

And Israel?

And Israel?No.

I consider Israel and Iran to be the only Democracies in the region.
Lebanon and Palestine are Democracies too (but for how long?..they are fragile)

No.

Israel and Iran are the only Democracies.
Lebanon and Palestine are Democracies too (but for how long?..they are fragile)

Iran a democracy? *dies of laughter*

Iran a democracy? *dies of laughter*thank you for disagreeing with me.
only Corneliu was able to build my credibility so fast. ;)

No.

I consider Israel and Iran to be the only Democracies in the region.
Lebanon and Palestine are Democracies too (but for how long?..they are fragile)

Agreed, but earlier you said:

and BTW I see nothin wrong on the OP post, deal with it.

In response to the OP's comparison of Israel and Nazi Germany...

thank you for disagreeing with me.

You make it to easy to disagree with you.

only Corneliu was able to build my credibility so fast. ;)

Um...ok? You have credibility?

thank you for disagreeing with me.
only Corneliu was able to build my credibility so fast. ;)

Didn't you see the news last election? The unelected Guardian Council prevented most of the Reform candidates from standing.

Didn't you see the news last election? The unelected Guardian Council prevented most of the Reform candidates from standing.

as usual. :(

Agreed, but earlier you said:



In response to the OP's comparison of Israel and Nazi Germany...The OP makes some very valid points.. he may be slightly Godwining at the end, but he is doing 0.0001% of all the Godwining in this thread.

If I start taking issue with all the GodWinning -directed at me- around here (NSG).. I am going to have to forfeit my RL activities.. an hook myself to NSG.

Um...ok? You have credibility?
Yes he's creditible to around 2 other people on this board.

But that's about it.

Yes he's creditible to around 2 other people on this board.

But that's about it.

Ah. I understand. He does not have any credibility. Got it.

Didn't you see the news last election? The unelected Guardian Council prevented most of the Reform candidates from standing.

Reading through this thread, OcceanDrive has lost me. He seems to be talking in circles. And when he made the claim that Iran was a democracy I wondered if he knew about this. After all the Guardian Council controls who can run, and I'll bet they even control whom gets elected. Does that make it a democracy?

I think not. Iran is a theocracy masquerading as a democracy to fool people like OcceanDrive. The rest of us see through the guise.

Reading through this thread, OcceanDrive has lost me. He seems to be talking in circles. And when he made the claim that Iran was a democracy I wondered if he knew about this. After all the Guardian Council control who can run, and I'll bet they even control whom gets elected.

Iran is a theocracy masquerading as a democracy to fool people like OcceanDrive. The rest of us see through the guise.

That is because we are intelligent and learned enough to see through such masquerades.

Reading through this thread, OcceanDrive has lost me. "Follow the white rabbit Neo..:D "

It means follow the little green lines. They are there just for you.

(Iran) a democracy?of course it is.
The people gets to elect their president in direct elections.

now my question.. is the US a Democracy?

in a way The Guardian Council is Like the SCrOTUS.

Now.. are You suggesting the SCrOTUS has the power to be the ultimate decider on who gets to be US president?

are you?

The Supreme Court Republicans do not elect a president. If you are referring to the 2000 election where Gore won the popular vote but lost the electorial college, and then chose to fight it in court, then you obviously do not understand the American Election process.

And No, the Supreme Court has never prevented any candidate from running, nor has it selected who our President would be. It has, however, determined whether elections were properly handled....This is an issue for a different thread and to avoid hijacking this one, I will say no more.


of course it is.
The people gets to elect their president in direct elections.

So you are saying a government where a small number of people determine whether a person can be elected and then the population chooses who from those hand picked individuals who is elected. That is a democracy? If that is all it takes to make a democracy? Then obvisouly, Cuba, and Sadam's Iraq were/are democracies too.
now my question.. is the US a Democracy?

The US is a Republic, and always has been. Now that means it has an inherent democratic lean, but it is not, by definitive terms a democracy.

That is because we are intelligent and learned enough to read Wikipedia.

^^Fixed. :p

This thread needs a poll.

Who is the bigger anti-semitic fool? Adolf Prime or OD?

Most occupied territories do not have the right to vote in the nation that is occupying them. Look at the era of colonization for example.

A correct analogy.

Oddly enough others don't seem to see it.

That is because we are intelligent and learned enough to believe whatever the Zionists and US government say!


thats a better fix ;)

Hmm, that's funny. I'm an Asian in Australia, and I haven't been sent to a concentration camp yet. I wonder why.

Because we haven't been attacked by Japanese military forces?

Iran news: Iran is still fucked up. Revolution pending. End news.

Neu Leonstein, thank you for the article on Israel, one of the few very balanced pieces of writing on the conflict.

thats a better fix ;)

Yea right :rolleyes:

thats a better fix ;)

Would you care to explain how a country can be a democracy when every candidate has to be vetted by a bunch of clerics?

Would you care to explain how a country can be a democracy when every candidate has to be vetted by a bunch of clerics? He's got you there.

They don't have the vote in the occupied territories, do they? And they've been occupied 40 years now.....Not for the Israeli elections, no. What with not being in Israel.

However, you might've noticed that the palestinians have their own government... For which they can vote... To the point that 'Toss the jews back into the sea!' parties are elected... Despite the occupation...

So every sephradic Jew who arrived between 1947 and 1967 arrived because of persecution and expulsion?No. 'Only' the majority did.

And now, for an amazing comparison - what did Israel do with the refugees coming from, well, more or less everywhere? Why, it incorporated them into the nation, providing food, healthcare and education...

What did Israel's neighbors do with the arab refugees from Israel (Some of which were indeed forcibly relocated by the Israelis, although the majority fled without such force behind them, following a blunder in the arab propaganda)? They left them in their refugee camps, ignoring issues such as healthcare and food, and gave them bombs and AKs.

Basically, the reason that Israel's so despised by the world is that it actually cared about its refugees, whereas Israel's neighbors didn't. Instead, they choose to use said refugees as a political - and military - weapon.

Ya'know - Israel helped the people fleeing to it from all over the Arab world, and choose not to use them as a weapon. Germany helped the people fleeing from Silesia and Eastern Prussia, again, not choosing to use them as a weapon.

Israel's neighbors essentially told the refugees to go, strap a bomb to themselves, and blow themselves up, doing laughably little to help them in much more simple terms (Food, healthcare, education), and when these people dared to seek for help across the border, the result ended up being called the 'Black September'.

You'll excuse me for failing to see why it's the Israelis who are considered 'Evil'.

Well, eviller. Israel's not exactly the nicest country in the world, but I sure as hell prefer it to its neighbors.

Not for the Israeli elections, no. What with not being in Israel..

...but being Governed by Israel. Isn't that a case of having ones cake and eating it there?


However, you might've noticed that the palestinians have their own government... For which they can vote... To the point that 'Toss the jews back into the sea!' parties are elected... Despite the occupation...
..

And yet its Israel who ultimately controls the water supplies, the borders etc. Its Israel who have numerous checkpoints within areas of the West Bank. All of which any Palestinian Government is powerless to change.


No. 'Only' the majority did...

Thanks for clarifying that.

And now, for an amazing comparison - what did Israel do with the refugees coming from, well, more or less everywhere? Why, it incorporated them into the nation, providing food, healthcare and education......

O they took them in, fair enough. It wasn't all Roses and hugs, however.

In 1951, the director general of the Israeli Health Ministry, Dr. Chaim Sheba, flew to America and returned with seven x-ray machines, supplied to him by the American army.

They were to be used in a mass atomic experiment with an entire generation of Sephardi youths to be used as guinea pigs. Every Sephardi child was to be given 35,000 times the maximum dose of x-rays through his head.
http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/3998.htm
There is apparently still some discrimination against Sephradic Jews in some quarters, however it seems to be a bit of a taboo subject.


What did Israel's neighbors do with the arab refugees from Israel (Some of which were indeed forcibly relocated by the Israelis, although the majority fled without such force behind them, following a blunder in the arab propaganda)? ......

Well, theres a great deal of documentation that says that the majority were either forced out, or fled due to threat of same (see Benny Morris et al). And logically, considering the Palestinians couldnt organise an effective resistance, its really stretching things to suggest they could so easily organise a mass exodus.

The fact that many of the regions states have treated the palestinians shabbily is hardly exoneration of Israels behaviour over the decades.


Basically, the reason that Israel's so despised by the world is that it actually cared about its refugees, whereas Israel's neighbors didn't. Instead, they choose to use said refugees as a political - and military - weapon.......

Actually World opinion really only began to go against Israel since 1967. Instead of a small country defending itself, we began to see a country brutalising a civillian populace and forcing its colonists upon them. 40 years later, its still going on.


Israel's neighbors essentially told the refugees to go, strap a bomb to themselves, and blow themselves up,.......

As far as I'm aware its a tactic they devised themselves. Having been denied justice for so many years, its really more a comment on their desperation than anything else.


doing laughably little to help them in much more simple terms (Food, healthcare, education), and when these people dared to seek for help across the border, the result ended up being called the 'Black September'.
,.......

"Black September" was the inevitable result of the large scale population displacement caused by the Israeli invasion. Jordanians had become almost a minority overnight and there were parallel institutions and armed forces developing and in conflict.


You'll excuse me for failing to see why it's the Israelis who are considered 'Evil'.,.......

Well, colonisation, instituting a system with Parallels to apartheid in the West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem, brutality, torture....

And all allowed due to the constant veto of the US.

Neu Leonstein, thank you for the article on Israel, one of the few very balanced pieces of writing on the conflict.
I thought so as well. But much like any other voice with something reasonably to say, it has been largely ignored. ;)

Longer version: http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9222979

I thought so as well. But much like any other voice with something reasonably to say, it has been largely ignored. ;)

Longer version: http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9222979
But since when did being reasonable come into the Israel/Palestinian conflict, or NSG threads about it..?

Neu Leonstein, thank you for the article on Israel, one of the few very balanced pieces of writing on the conflict.

If you want balanced writing I'd recommend Seth Freedman (http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/seth_freedman/). He's a Jew living in Israel and a veteran of the IDF, but he presents a remarkably unbiased view of the conflict.

No, they have a problem with the Zionist regime existing full stop.

They're a fringe group...in fact, they're even more fringe than you.

I might add that if Der Spiegel is up in arms over a third world despot, then it's pretty serious. Der Spiegel is historically lefty-ish, and was key in exposing the defense expenditure scandals that brought down Adenauer. Der Spiegel has far more credibility than any Iranian news source.

Would you care to explain how a country can be a democracy when every candidate has to be vetted by a bunch of clerics? Would you care to explain how a country can be a democracy when a bunch of 7 old men (SCrOTUS) can override the will of the people election and block the manual counting of votes ???
(in this post the word men is used for females too)

Neu Leonstein, thank you for the article on Israel, one of the few very balanced pieces of writing on the conflict.Riiiight

Neu-Leonsten is quite fair-and-balanced on Israel/Jewish issues :rolleyes:

Would you care to explain how a country can be a democracy when a bunch of 7 old men (SCrOTUS) can override the will of the people election and block the manual counting of votes ???
(in this post the word men is used for females too)

If the SCOTUS had a veto on any candidate standing for election then the US wouldn't be a democracy, just like Iran... To equivocate the two is absurd.

If the SCOTUS had a veto on any candidate standing for election then the US wouldn't be a democracy, just like Iran...#1 can Arnold run for President?

#2 if we are a Democracy and SCrOTUS does not interfere with Democracy.. How did Bush become president?

#1 can Arnold run for President?

Please tell me that you see the difference between banning first-generation immigrants from standing and banning all non-Muslims (and many moderate-Muslims) from standing. I'll give you a clue: it involves the difference between individuals and idealogies. I'm not saying that I support the ban, merely that it's irrelevant.

Besides, the Iranian restriction is self-perpetuating: if you prevent all moderates from standing then the law will never change, but if immigrants are allowed to stand for all positions except President they can change the law.

#2 if we are a Democracy and SCrOTUS does not interfere with Democracy.. How did Bush become president?

There's a difference between a democratic nation where the supreme court interferes on one occaison and a country which has NO DEMOCRACY BECAUSE THE SUPREME COURT CAN VETO EVERY SINGLE CANDIDATE. The Supreme Court could stop the recount, but they don't have the authority to ban candidates from standing.

#1 can Arnold run for President?

He's not forbidden from running because of his political beliefs, though. While it is unjust, it's not comparable to the Iranian governments behaviors. In Iran people are forbidden from holding office because of what they believe.



#2 if we are a Democracy and SCOTUS does not interfere with Democracy.. How did Bush become president?

We're a liberal federal constitutional republic, in which liberalism, and liberal restrictions on government, is the defining measure of our system, not democracy. Although democracy is an important component of liberalism.

Imperfect though we my be, we are leagues better than Iran.

Would you care to explain how a country can be a democracy when a bunch of 7 old men (SCrOTUS) can override the will of the people election and block the manual counting of votes ???
(in this post the word men is used for females too)

Oh brother. Does this have to be explained to you that the way the votes were being recounted was unconstitutional? What is constitutional about different methods of recounts in one state? Oh yea...nothing.

#1 can Arnold run for President?

Article 2 says no. It stipulates precisely who can run for president. You have to be a naturally born person in America, be 35 years of age, and lived in this country for 14 years if memory serves me right! Was he born in America? No he was not.

#2 if we are a Democracy and SCrOTUS does not interfere with Democracy.. How did Bush become president?

By winning the vote in the state of Florida legally and clearly. Something that you so want to be wrong.

Please tell me that you see the difference between banning first-generation immigrants...Arnold is a US citizen. I is unDemocratic to ban him.

It is undemocratic to say immigrant Citizens have less election rigths than "pure" Citizens.

that is not Democracy.

Arnold is a US citizen. I is unDemocratic to ban him.

It is undemocratic to say immigrant Citizens have less election rigths than "pure" Citizens.

that is not Democracy.

I'm not gonna disagree with you that it's undemocratic and it needs changing, but it's a sin of a far lesser degree than the undemocratic strictures the Iranian government has put into place.

Arnold is a US citizen. I is unDemocratic to ban him.

He became a citizen after immigrating here legally. Ergo, he cannot be president as he WAS NOT BORN AN AMERICAN CITIZEN!!!

It is undemocratic to say immigrant Citizens have less election rigths than "pure" Citizens.

Umm yea...now if this was true, you would have a point. Since it is not true, you have zero points.

that is not Democracy.

Take it up with the writers of the Constitution.

By winning the vote in the state of Florida legally and clearly. Riight :rolleyes:
.

Something that you so want to be wrong.The SCrOTUS Blocked the Vote counting.. it is wrong, no matter what I want.

Arnold is a US citizen. I is unDemocratic to ban him.

It is undemocratic to say immigrant Citizens have less election rigths than "pure" Citizens.

that is not Democracy.

It's unfair, but it's not undemocratic. Honestly, why are you so desparate to make Iran look like a democracy?

EDIT: Oh, and nice job avoiding all the stuff you couldn't answer.

Riight :rolleyes:

Prove otherwise.

The SCOTUS Blocked the Vote counting.. it is wrong, no matter what I want.

I see no amount of evidence is going to change your mind.

It's unfair, but it's not undemocratic.then.. I can say the same for Iran. ;)

why are you so desparate to make Iran look like a democracy?If I was "desparate".. I would be posting in a "desparate" way.. with spelling-errors/typos like you.

It's unfair, but it's not undemocratic. Honestly, why are you so desparate to make Iran look like a democracy?

He's got this bizarre need to lift up third world despotisms and deride first world liberal democracies. Some sort of attempt at developing the moral equivalency hypothesis all over again. I think he wants to be involved in a cause, but I don't exactly understand why he's picked their cause. Now that he's chosen his cause, he's unwilling to back down, even when confronted with conflicting evidence, rather deriding it as "imperialist propaganda" or some such nonsense as that.

then.. I can say the same for Iran. ;)

What the fuck? I think I'll just repost my previous post in the hope that you'll understand it this time:

Please tell me that you see the difference between banning first-generation immigrants from standing and banning all non-Muslims (and many moderate-Muslims) from standing. I'll give you a clue: it involves the difference between individuals and idealogies. I'm not saying that I support the ban, merely that it's irrelevant.

Besides, the Iranian restriction is self-perpetuating: if you prevent all moderates from standing then the law will never change, but if immigrants are allowed to stand for all positions except President they can change the law.

If I was "desparate".. I would be posting in a "desparate" way.. with spelling-errors/typos like you.

Attacking your opponent's spelling: the first refuge of the complete moron. By the way, if you do feel the urge to attack the manner in which other people type, it might be a good idea to stop typing in stupid coloured font. Just an idea...

He's got this bizarre need to lift up third world despotisms and deride first world liberal democracies. Some sort of attempt at developing the moral equivalency hypothesis all over again. I think he wants to be involved in a cause, but I don't exactly understand why he's picked their cause. Now that he's chosen his cause, he's unwilling to back down, even when confronted with conflicting evidence, rather deriding it as "imperialist propaganda" or some such nonsense as that.

I think you might have hit the nail on the head there.

To OD:

Stop dodging the subject by calling into question the tiny typos that people have made in their posts. It only makes you look like an arrogant and ignorant fool who's too lazy to defend their viewpoint.

And also, I don't think anyone in this thread has described the US as a pure democracy. We're a republic, and we also have democratic elements in how our government is run.

Perhaps we should amend the constitution to give naturalized citizens (that is, not born in the US) the right to run for the Presidency. Come to think of it, it is a rather pointless addition in today's world, but I imagine that, when the Constitution was first written, it was imagined that a foreigner with more loyalty to their homeland than to the US might betray the US. I know, it sounds far-fetched, but I can imagine it being a fear during the less than stable times during the founding of the US.



Now.... to the real subject of this thread.

I support the state of Israel, but mostly I just want both sides to stop killing each other. I also want the Palestinians to stop killing each other. It is truly, truly sad, that the Palestinians seem to be fighting a civil war at the same time that they're fighting a war of terror against Israel.

It gets pretty annoying when people claim to be "defending" Iran and laud it's government. The Iranian people do not need your support of the government opressing them. Take it from me.

It gets pretty annoying when people claim to be "defending" Iran and laud it's government. you are annoyed by people who do not agree with you?
poor you.
Welcome to NSG. (cry me a river ;) )
.

The Iranian people do not need your support of the government opressing them. Take it from me.then I guess we can count on the Iranian people to vote for the least conservative candidate.. and perhaps elect a President who is willing to stop enrichment?
.

It gets pretty annoying when people claim to be "defending" Iran and laud it's government. The Iranian people do not need your support of the government opressing them. Take it from me.

You sound just like the Bushiviks, 'we don't have a problem with the Iranian people, just their government', don't kid around, you and others support Iran becoming another Iraq, do the think the people of Iraq are grateful for the US now? I don't think so. Also I have already made a thread about this, the US is far more elitist and restrictive than these countries.

Perhaps we should amend the constitution to give naturalized citizens (that is, not born in the US) the right to run for the Presidency.

The Presidator!

You sound just like the Bushiviks, 'we don't have a problem with the Iranian people, just their government', don't kid around, you and others support Iran becoming another Iraq, do the think the people of Iraq are grateful for the US now? I don't think so. Also I have already made a thread about this, the US is far more elitist and restrictive than these countries.

Actually, he sounds just like a lot of the folks on NSG that hate the "Bushiviks". You know, the people that say "I don't hate Americans; I just hate their government."

Instead of a "Bushivik", I'd say he sounds just like any other reasonable person that doesn't have a problem with a nation's people, but rather their policies at the time.

You sound just like the Bushiviks, 'we don't have a problem with the Iranian people, just their government', don't kid around, you and others support Iran becoming another Iraq, do the think the people of Iraq are grateful for the US now? I don't think so. Also I have already made a thread about this, the US is far more elitist and restrictive than these countries.

OH NO he has a problem with a government, but the people are all right! How disgusting!

Uh, what else exactly is it possible to do? Have a problem with both the government and the people? Racism. Have a problem with neither? Oh yes, let's all not criticise any governments, because doing so makes you a 'Bushivik'. Or, criticise the people, but not the government, which, frankly, makes no sense whatsoever. Are you saying that one's not allowed to question governments?

To OD:

Stop dodging the subject by calling into question the tiny typos that people have made in their posts. It only makes you look like an arrogant and ignorant fool who's too lazy to defend their viewpoint.
OD hasn't bothered to defend anything he says in months now.

You sound just like the Bushiviks, 'we don't have a problem with the Iranian people, just their government', don't kid around, you and others support Iran becoming another Iraq, do the think the people of Iraq are grateful for the US now?

1) You have a nice run on sentence.
2) How is criticizing a government make one a "Bushivik"? (What a stupid word)
3) Grow up.

I don't think so. Also I have already made a thread about this, the US is far more elitist and restrictive than these countries.

Oh that is crap and has been thoroughly trashed. G'day.