NationStates Jolt Archive

When many of us think of the story of creation, our first instinct, because of how we are brought up and the type of world we live in, we think of the Judeo-Christian story of Genesis and associate it with creationism. For a Creationist, this is the ultimate creation story.

But does it make it the right one?

There are many others out there. Such as the Greek Titans.

The early Greek poets posited various cosmogonies. The best-preserved is Hesiod's Theogony. In this hymn, out of the primordial chaos came the earliest divinities, including Gaia (mother earth). Gaia created Uranus, the sky, to cover herself. They spawned a bizarre menagerie of gods and monsters, including the Hecatonchires, monsters with 50 heads and a hundred hands, and the Cyclopes, the "wheel-eyed," later forgers of Zeus's thunderbolts. Next came the gods known as the Titans, 6 sons and 6 daughters. Uranus, despising his monstrous children, imprisoned them in Tartarus, the earth's bowels. Enraged, Gaia made an enormous sickle and gave it to her youngest son, Cronus, with instructions. When next Uranus appeared to copulate with Gaia, Cronus sprang out and hacked off his father's genitals! Where Uranus's blood and naughty bits fell, there sprang forth more monsters, the Giants and Furies. From the sea foam churned up by the the holy testicles came the goddess Aphrodite. Later, Cronus fathered the next generation of gods, Zeus and the Olympians. And, boy, were they dysfunctional!

There is also the Aztec version of the story...

The earth mother of the Aztecs, Coatlicue ("skirt of snakes,") is depicted in a fearsome way, wearing a necklace of human hearts and hands, and a skirt of snakes as her name suggests. The story goes that Coatlicue was impregnated by an obsidian knife and gave birth to Coyolxauhqui, goddess of the moon, and to 400 sons, who became the stars of the southern sky. Later, a ball of feathers fell from the sky which, upon Coatlicue finding it and placing it in her waistband, caused her to become pregnant again. Coyolxauhqui and her brothers turned against their mother, whose unusual pregnancy shocked and outraged them, the origin being unknown. However, the child inside Coatlique, Huitzilopochtli, the god of war and the sun god, sprang from his mother's womb, fully-grown and armored (talk about a C-section!). He attacked Coyolxauhqui, killing her with the aid of a fire serpent. Cutting off her head, he flung it into the sky, where it became the moon. That was supposed to comfort Coatlicue, his mother--some comfort!

There are many others.

So why do Creationists when they say they want Creation taught in schools they only refer to the story of Genesis and not the many others that exist? Why don't we hear about the Norse story of creation, or maybe the Chinese or Japanese versions? Aren't they equally as possible if Genesis is supposedly possible?

The Top 10 Intelligent Design (or Creation Myths) (http://www.livescience.com/history/top10_intelligent_designs-1.html)

I recommend you read a few of the myths in the link before you reply because there are an interesting read and it'll help make this discussion a little smoother because people will know what you're talking about.

And yes, before anyone says it, the story of Genesis is one of the 10 creation stories in this link, so it isn't biased in favour of the others.

So why do Creationists when they say they want Creation taught in schools they only refer to the story of Genesis and not the many others that exist? Why don't we hear about the Norse story of creation, or maybe the Chinese or Japanese versions? Aren't they equally as possible if Genesis is supposedly possible?

Because anything other than the Genesis account is silly? Oh yeah--half the time they can't even reconcile themselves to the fact that there are two creation myths in the Bible. Look--the people who want Biblical creation taught as fact in the school system aren't exactly the most logical. If they were, they wouldn't be asking for the Biblical creation to be taught in science classes.

Because anything other than the Genesis account is silly? Oh yeah--half the time they can't even reconcile themselves to the fact that there are two creation myths in the Bible. Look--the people who want Biblical creation taught as fact in the school system aren't exactly the most logical. If they were, they wouldn't be asking for the Biblical creation to be taught in science classes.

That is a very good point. There are blatant contradictions in Genesis to begin with, such as the order that Adam and Eve were created in, and what happened on each "day".

Here's a myth I like:

In the beginning, the Earth was completely covered in water. First Woman fell down to Earth from Heaven, and was caught by two sea birds who held her on their wings as they flew above the water. But the birds began to tire, and they cried out to the other animals for help.

The animals of the sea decided that they must make land for First Woman to stand upon. So they began to dive down deep, to reach the bottom of the sea. Many animals drowned trying to reach the bottom. Finally, Toad came up with his mouth full of mud.

First Woman took the mud and put it on the back of Turtle, and shaped it into land. She stepped onto the land and sprinkled dust into the air to make stars. Then she created the moon and sun.




I like toads.

Here's a myth I like:

In the beginning, the Earth was completely covered in water. First Woman fell down to Earth from Heaven, and was caught by two sea birds who held her on their wings as they flew above the water. But the birds began to tire, and they cried out to the other animals for help.

The animals of the sea decided that they must make land for First Woman to stand upon. So they began to dive down deep, to reach the bottom of the sea. Many animals drowned trying to reach the bottom. Finally, Toad came up with his mouth full of mud.

First Woman took the mud and put it on the back of Turtle, and shaped it into land. She stepped onto the land and sprinkled dust into the air to make stars. Then she created the moon and sun.




I like toads.
That's a good one. I like it; even if it's just a myth.

I like toads too.

Here's a myth I like:

In the beginning, the Earth was completely covered in water. First Woman fell down to Earth from Heaven, and was caught by two sea birds who held her on their wings as they flew above the water. But the birds began to tire, and they cried out to the other animals for help.

The animals of the sea decided that they must make land for First Woman to stand upon. So they began to dive down deep, to reach the bottom of the sea. Many animals drowned trying to reach the bottom. Finally, Toad came up with his mouth full of mud.

First Woman took the mud and put it on the back of Turtle, and shaped it into land. She stepped onto the land and sprinkled dust into the air to make stars. Then she created the moon and sun.




I like toads.

Lies! It was a newt and you're going straight to hell!

Yours

Pope of Newtolicism, Defender of the Faith and Destroyer of the Toadian Heretics

The story I quite like is the one where rock formations around the world show how our planet formed and cooled, into the place we now live.

There is also a tiny bit of evidance to suggest that this creation myth may well be the correct one.

Here's a myth I like:
First Woman took the mud and put it on the back of Turtle, and shaped it into land. She stepped onto the land and sprinkled dust into the air to make stars. Then she created the moon and sun.
It's ALL about the turtles!

Now if there was just four elephants in the story I could get behind it. ;)

It's ALL about the turtles!

Now if there was just four elephants in the story I could get behind it. ;)

Umm who was it that said, you can't fool me it's turtles all the way down?

Umm who was it that said, you can't fool me it's turtles all the way down?
Uh... some little old lady at a lecture given by Stephen Hawking I think.

Either way, Terry Pratchett and Co. picked it up for Science of Discworld.

*Snip

*Shrugs* Wouldn't Theseus and the Minotaur be funner then David and Goliath?

There's actually a Wikipedia page about "Turtles all the way down" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down). It has a brilliant pic :)

Uh... some little old lady at a lecture given by Stephen Hawking I think.

Either way, Terry Pratchett and Co. picked it up for Science of Discworld.

Ahhh there you go, yep I think you have it right, on both counts.

*Shrugs* Wouldn't Theseus and the Minotaur be funner then David and Goliath?
Sure. Only because the Greek gods are more human than those in the Bible. Their flaws make them amusing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Z82lm5oGQ

:D

Sure. Only because the Greek gods are more human than those in the Bible. Their flaws make them amusing.

Quite. Their stories are like Fantasy Soap Operas, with a pinch of comedy thrown in once-in-a-while for good measure.

Here's a myth I like:

In the beginning, the Earth was completely covered in water. First Woman fell down to Earth from Heaven, and was caught by two sea birds who held her on their wings as they flew above the water. But the birds began to tire, and they cried out to the other animals for help.

The animals of the sea decided that they must make land for First Woman to stand upon. So they began to dive down deep, to reach the bottom of the sea. Many animals drowned trying to reach the bottom. Finally, Toad came up with his mouth full of mud.

First Woman took the mud and put it on the back of Turtle, and shaped it into land. She stepped onto the land and sprinkled dust into the air to make stars. Then she created the moon and sun.




I like toads.

I believe that is a Native American creation story...Correct?
and that it was a beaver or muskrat...not a toad...

What really gets me is that first there was Adam, then Eve, and then their sons Cain and Abel. So where future procreation come from?

Did Eve have sex with her sons? Did Adam and Eve have undisclosed daughters whom Adam and Eve had children with?

Doesn't incest cause birth defects? If so, and man was created in god's image, then doesn't that mean the human race is no longer in god's image? Ergo, the god of Adam and Eve is not the god of the children of Cain and Abel and all further generations?

Because anything other than the Genesis account is silly? Oh yeah--half the time they can't even reconcile themselves to the fact that there are two creation myths in the Bible. Look--the people who want Biblical creation taught as fact in the school system aren't exactly the most logical. If they were, they wouldn't be asking for the Biblical creation to be taught in science classes.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” (Stephen F. Roberts)

So why do Creationists when they say they want Creation taught in schools they only refer to the story of Genesis and not the many others that exist? Why don't we hear about the Norse story of creation, or maybe the Chinese or Japanese versions?

Because the other stories are FALSE EVIL PAGAN GODLESS LIES!
Of course, I wonder how a thing can be pagan and godless at the same time, but I'm willing to bet that most christian fundies, who usually make up the vociferous backbone of Creationism, will find a way to call many thing "pagan and godless". Also, a false lie might be a real truth...

Creationism...:rolleyes:

I forgot: false evil pagan COMMIE godless lies.

Uh... some little old lady at a lecture given by Stephen Hawking I think.

No, I think it happened at a lecture given by Bertie Russell.

I like to believe a huge hobo vomited the universe in a back alley and the day it is cleaned up is the day we all die.

I like to believe a huge hobo vomited the universe in a back alley and the day it is cleaned up is the day we all die.

Wth...? You get two thumbs up just for making me giggle.

What really gets me is that first there was Adam, then Eve, and then their sons Cain and Abel. So where future procreation come from?

Did Eve have sex with her sons? Did Adam and Eve have undisclosed daughters whom Adam and Eve had children with?

Doesn't incest cause birth defects? If so, and man was created in god's image, then doesn't that mean the human race is no longer in god's image? Ergo, the god of Adam and Eve is not the god of the children of Cain and Abel and all further generations?

Doesn't the Bible also explicitly forbid incest, labelling it as a high sin?

If man was created in God's image, then which man is truly the image of God? Is it the white man, or is the brown, or who? Who is the man who is the very image? Was the first man some other colour than what exists today?

I liked Dennis Miller's take on it (from back when he was funny--oh, so long ago) when he said "you ever wonder if Earth was God's fourth grade science fair project and he just tossed it in the closet and forgot about it?"

Yeah, Bottle's version is way cooler.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Z82lm5oGQ

:D

BEHOLD YOUR GOD!! YOU LUNATIC GOOFBALLS!!!

http://www.musicpark.at/press/i_dream_of_jeannie_2006_300dpi.jpg

:p:p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Z82lm5oGQ

:D

:D indeed! :D

What really gets me is that first there was Adam, then Eve, and then their sons Cain and Abel. So where future procreation come from?

Did Eve have sex with her sons? Did Adam and Eve have undisclosed daughters whom Adam and Eve had children with?

Doesn't incest cause birth defects? If so, and man was created in god's image, then doesn't that mean the human race is no longer in god's image? Ergo, the god of Adam and Eve is not the god of the children of Cain and Abel and all further generations?
According to Bill Buckingham, inbreeding didn't exist until there were enough people that incest wasn't necessary. Don't you love how creationists claim "the bible tells all" and then make up explanations for all sorts of things the bible doesn't cover?

I believe that is a Native American creation story...Correct?
and that it was a beaver or muskrat...not a toad...

I'd suspect she made it up to show how anyone can come up with a creation story.

According to Bill Buckingham, inbreeding didn't exist until there were enough people that incest wasn't necessary. Don't you love how creationists claim "the bible tells all" and then make up explanations for all sorts of things the bible doesn't cover?

Because when no other explanation is available... "because God says so" covers it for those folks. :)

What about the one where dust gathered together with gases...

Here's a myth I like:

In the beginning, the Earth was completely covered in water. First Woman fell down to Earth from Heaven, and was caught by two sea birds who held her on their wings as they flew above the water. But the birds began to tire, and they cried out to the other animals for help.

The animals of the sea decided that they must make land for First Woman to stand upon. So they began to dive down deep, to reach the bottom of the sea. Many animals drowned trying to reach the bottom. Finally, Toad came up with his mouth full of mud.

First Woman took the mud and put it on the back of Turtle, and shaped it into land. She stepped onto the land and sprinkled dust into the air to make stars. Then she created the moon and sun.




I like toads.

Sounds a quite a bit like an american indian tale... There is also a story about a great flood. An acient jokster (ala paul bunion) Nanahbozo, ticks of the great spirit. the spirit floods the land forcing Nahb to climb a friggin tall tree. About the time the waters reached his mouth he had to take a shit. So, the crap floated (as it usually does) to his mouth, and he had to blow it away for quite awhile (can't quite remember how he go rid of it). Then at some point he somehow obtains some earth (Some animal gave it to him I think) and it grows into the earth we know it today.

I like ancient tricksters.

Sounds a quite a bit like an american indian tale... There is also a story about a great flood. An acient jokster (ala paul bunion) Nanahbozo, ticks of the great spirit. the spirit floods the land forcing Nahb to climb a friggin tall tree. About the time the waters reached his mouth he had to take a shit. So, the crap floated (as it usually does) to his mouth, and he had to blow it away for quite awhile (can't quite remember how he go rid of it). Then at some point he somehow obtains some earth (Some animal gave it to him I think) and it grows into the earth we know it today.

I like ancient tricksters.

My favorite creation stories have been:

Silmarillion - where a single note arises and then slowly turns into a full orchestra, especially where the discordant note appears - I could almost hear the music in my mind

I love Legend of Lodoss (the Japanese series rather than the film) as well as Carlos Castaneda's series of books - I really like the idea that there's good, bad and then my favourite - The Grey Witch - Karla - and then Silver, respectively - those whose aim is to never let good or bad win outright but rather allow the world to continue through disruption.

The relevance is that I like tricksters as well, those who's aim is to disrupt from the shadows.

I like the idea that creation comes through chaos and stagnation through stability. The world trends to stability, we desire it but there are those actors that purposely extend chaos because, well, life's more interesting that way.

I've heard that story a million times, tell me the one about the three bears and the blonde girl that stole their oatmeal...

The relevance is that I like tricksters as well, those who's aim is to disrupt from the shadows.


The idea of a complete good and a complete bad doesn't sit quite well with me. One of the reasons I never liked Star Wars or the Matrix. Again, with native legends, there are no hereos just character just trying to keep things interesting. Too bad they were nearly killed off and the remainder (forceably) converted to christianity. Now every thing you hear from any of the remainders are bits of christain friendly versions sprinkled on top.

What about the one where dust gathered together with gases...

Pffftt!

That one doesn't even make a good fireside tale.

Its all sciency and..stuff..

Pffftt!

That one doesn't even make a good fireside tale.

Its all sciency and..stuff..

Facts are pesky things aren't they? :)

I've heard tell of a creation myth that involves us being shit into existence. I don't like that one :(

...in the beginning life was boring. Atma said, "Let there be pizza!" And there was pizza, and he tasted it, and said it was good...

Also it's only a matter of time before there's a goldilocks porno. >_>

I've heard tell of a creation myth that involves us being shit into existence. I don't like that one :(

Do you prefer blood ? The blood of gods causing life is quite popular.
Or "moist" resulting from fellating oneself (Egypt) ?

But does it make it the right one?

The one that is right is the one that adequately conveys to you the story of creation. Of course, since none of them are actually from the culture you live in, it is unlikely that any will do so.

The Top 10 Intelligent Design (or Creation Myths) (http://www.livescience.com/history/top10_intelligent_designs-1.html)

I recommend you read a few of the myths in the link before you reply because there are an interesting read and it'll help make this discussion a little smoother because people will know what you're talking about.

And yes, before anyone says it, the story of Genesis is one of the 10 creation stories in this link, so it isn't biased in favour of the others.

we should teach the Egyptian creation myth. god sucked his own cock and thus generated the world through masturbation. if I were a high school science teacher forced to teach intelligent design, I'd teach that one too, even if it cost me my job.

The Greek myths would make for better sermons though.:D

we should teach the Egyptian creation myth. god sucked his own cock and thus generated the world through masturbation. if I were a high school science teacher forced to teach intelligent design, I'd teach that one too, even if it cost me my job.

What about making up your own? Would you do that? :)

What about making up your own? Would you do that? :)

gather round children, gather round.

in the beginning, I created the heavens and the earth. yes, that's right, me. personally. it involved a cosmic duck. and raspberry jam.

oo, I wonder if I could teach them Kabbalah?

What about making up your own? Would you do that? :)

Definitely. As said before:


The one that is right is the one that adequately conveys to you the story of creation.

And what could more adequately convey the message that everyone was created to make me live in luxury then the creation story that explicitly states this ?

The story I quite like is the one where rock formations around the world show how our planet formed and cooled, into the place we now live.

There is also a tiny bit of evidance to suggest that this creation myth may well be the correct one.

:fluffle:

Sure. Only because the Greek gods are more human than those in the Bible. Their flaws make them amusing.

Well, that, and the flaws of the Biblical god aren't amusing at all. They're terrible and far too reflective of the more idiotic zealous and extreme of its followers.

Actually, the pagan myths in cultures in antiquity are all very similar, especially in their creation stories, it shouldn't be surprising that Christianity and Hebrew religion take much of their inspiration from paganism.

Actually, the pagan myths in cultures in antiquity are all very similar, especially in their creation stories, it shouldn't be surprising that Christianity and Hebrew religion take much of their inspiration from paganism.

They did. Christmas was moved to December 25 by the Romans to coinside with their winter solstice holiday. Originally Christmas was around Easter time. And the name Easter comes from a pagan fertility god called Ostre.

i was gonna say, "who'se story of what creation?".

you mean like when coyote messed up and made humans?

or dragged us up from the sea, or out from under a rock, or a hallow log, or a volcanoe?

and how in the hell did christerism ever construe the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as lust, when nothing could more unambiguously be refering to aggressiveness and not a damd thing else?

why else have a story of creation at all, other then as a way of lying to ourselves that nothing could exist without our knowing and being able to understand it? which makes the idea of the existence of a god kind of a paradox doesn't it.

not that the existence of one or more gods has a damd thing to do with our ideas of them. insane internal conflict at the root of insanity. wanting there to be something to be bigger then ourselves when we get a booboo, but at the same time not wanting there to be anything we can't and don't already, not merely imagine, but fully understand.

yet we deny ourselves of infinite wonders, the gratification openness would give us of exploring them, by doing so.

every creature finds gratification in exploring, and humans are no exception. only humans also find gratification, are even driven to and by, creating as well. but the proccessess of life arn't clockworks, and we arn't little clocks made by a very old clockmaker, but a bunch of messy liquids in membranous shells, made by an automated factory that MAYBE some little old clock maker set up, or maybe it came into existence by some other proccess, but one thing for sure, when we open our eyes and look arround, the proccess of creating and sustaining us, ISN'T the end all and be all of the rest of existence. far from it. everything else has it's own bussiness to go about and goes about doing it just fine. with or without us, thank you kindly.

so my favorite creation story is the lack of any need for one, and of the dishonesty of trying to pretend we are anywhere near close to knowing, or even that it really makes a whole lot of difference whether or not we ever do.

learning how to avoid messing things up for each other and everything else, as long as there's been us, and as long as there will be, a whole heck of a lot more important then where or how we came from ever can be.

=^^=
.../\...