NationStates Jolt Archive


The Bible should be mandatory reading!!!

The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 11:20
It really should, or at least part of it (it's kinda long-winded). Why? Well, for one thing it glimses into human-kind's psychology and motivations, and accomplished quite a bit (good and bad). I mean, think about it. Edith Haimilton's Mythology is "required reading", so this should be too.
I think Apollodorus' Bibliotheca should be mandatory too!

If anyone cares to disagree, please usher in your argument, although I can't see a single one being plausible.

EDIT: It's called "required reading", not "mandatory reading".
Imperial isa
30-05-2007, 11:25
and i say to the person who wants to make me "do you want to die?"
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 11:31
and i say to the person who wants to make me "do you want to die?"

Tsk-tsk. Why so stubborn? Besides, I could "pwn" you in a fight.:D
Aurora Foundation
30-05-2007, 11:31
Maybe, as long as other religious texts are put along side it for comparison, and as long as it isn't put forward as Truth (hope I'm making sense here). If a broad selection of religious texts were required reading then it might just give people a wider insight into other religions, and through that understanding tolerance of them.
However - if it is just the Bible, with no other religious books then it seems more like trying to indoctrinate people into Christianity, which would be wrong in a public educational environment.
Cabra West
30-05-2007, 11:32
Mandatory for who? And who is Edith Hamilton?

:confused:
Yootopia
30-05-2007, 11:32
No it shouldn't.
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 11:34
Maybe, as long as other religious texts are put along side it for comparison, and as long as it isn't put forward as Truth (hope I'm making sense here). If a broad selection of religious texts were required reading then it might just give people a wider insight into other religions, and through that understanding tolerance of them.
However - if it is just the Bible, with no other religious books then it seems more like trying to indoctrinate people into Christianity, which would be wrong in a public educational environment.

And The Iliad would be trying to indoctrinate people to worship Zeus. :rolleyes:
I don't see anything wrong with teaching other religious texts, but as far as importance, the Bible ranks Numero Uno; just as Greek Mythology is considered a higher priority then Norse.
Big Jim P
30-05-2007, 11:34
I have read the bible, and I wouldn't force it on anyone not interested in reading it.
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 11:35
Mandatory for who? And who is Edith Hamilton?

:confused:

Mandatory reading in school.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology_%28book%29
Cabra West
30-05-2007, 11:37
And The Iliad would be trying to indoctrinate people to worship Zeus. :rolleyes:
I don't see anything wrong with teaching other religious texts, but as far as importance, the Bible ranks Numero Uno; just as Greek Mythology is considered a higher priority then Norse.

Regarded higher priority by who? You absolutely and totally confuse me...

I'm a librarian, but I never heard of such a thing as "mandatory reading". What on earth are you on about?
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 11:37
I have read the bible, and I wouldn't force it on anyone not interested in reading it.

If Mythology is forced upon them, shouldn't the Bible be?
Imperial isa
30-05-2007, 11:37
Tsk-tsk. Why so stubborn? Besides, I could "pwn" you in a fight.:D

who said it be fist :p
Cabra West
30-05-2007, 11:38
Mandatory reading in school.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology_%28book%29

In what schools? I've never heard of that book before... Wikipedia says nothing about this being mandatory, nor who made it mandatory.

I remember we shortly touched on Greek mythology in history class, but there was no such thing as a "mandatory read"... :confused:
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 11:39
who said it be fist :p

I could do even better with guns, but I'd be best with pies....
Bad Linen
30-05-2007, 11:39
It really should, or at least part of it (it's kinda long-winded). Why? Well, for one thing it glimses into human-kind's psychology and motivations, and accomplished quite a bit (good and bad). I mean, think about it. Edith Haimilton's Mythology is mandatory, so this should be too.
I think Apollodorus' Bibliotheca should be mandatory too!

If anyone cares to disagree, please usher in your argument, although I can't see a single one being plausible.

Pretty lame troll. imo. Keep trying :rolleyes:
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 11:40
In what schools? I've never heard of that book before... Wikipedia says nothing about this being mandatory, nor who made it mandatory.

I remember we shortly touched on Greek mythology in history class, but there was no such thing as a "mandatory read"... :confused:

:eek: Goodness! It used to be mandatory! I would say it must have been a long time ago, but I saw it a year-ago in a bookstore in the "Madatory Reading" shelf.
Yootopia
30-05-2007, 11:41
And The Iliad would be trying to indoctrinate people to worship Zeus. :rolleyes:
You live in the US, aye?

I'm pretty sure that everyone who even the beginnings of cares has probably read some of the Bible. The same is probalby not true of other religious texts.

In a state where about 85ish% (IIRC) of the population is Christian, I'm pretty sure you'd be much better off teaching people about OTHER religions first and all...
I don't see anything wrong with teaching other religious texts, but as far as importance, the Bible ranks Numero Uno; just as Greek Mythology is considered a higher priority then Norse.
Errr... who one earth set that particular priority system up?
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 11:41
Pretty lame troll. imo. Keep trying :rolleyes:

You, uh, obviously don't understand the definition of "troll".
United Beleriand
30-05-2007, 11:46
Reading the bible should indeed be mandatory.
Khadgar
30-05-2007, 11:46
It really should, or at least part of it (it's kinda long-winded). Why? Well, for one thing it glimses into human-kind's psychology and motivations, and accomplished quite a bit (good and bad). I mean, think about it. Edith Haimilton's Mythology is mandatory, so this should be too.
I think Apollodorus' Bibliotheca should be mandatory too!

If anyone cares to disagree, please usher in your argument, although I can't see a single one being plausible.

We never had mandatory reading. As for counter arguments:

1) The bible is badly written. It's cumbersome to read and lacks anything resembling internal consistency. Hell even the well known stories like Genesis and David versus Goliath have more than one version. The latter having three if I remember right, in the same book. It reads exactly like it is, a hodgepodge of half remembered stories slapped in the same book desperately in need of an editor.
2) If you want to know about psychology, pick up a book on the subject.
3) Many (most?) schools don't have mandatory reading, it's not something they bother with.
4) Separation of Church and State.
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 11:48
Errr... who one earth set that particular priority system up?

I did, for three reasons: first, it's the most prominent relgious text by a long-shot. Second it's to due with date. It's incredibly old, and the fact that it's teachings are still given any heed shows how deeply rooted it is within society's conciousness. Thirdy: It is directly responsible for the two most prominent religions (Christianism and Islam), and is the core of the OLDEST (Judaism).
As for the 85% bit, I often look about the high-schoolers: I'll lay you 8 to 5 most haven't read a single word of it. Maybe their grandparents, but they haven't.
Aurora Foundation
30-05-2007, 11:49
And The Iliad would be trying to indoctrinate people to worship Zeus. :rolleyes:
I don't see anything wrong with teaching other religious texts, but as far as importance, the Bible ranks Numero Uno; just as Greek Mythology is considered a higher priority then Norse.

I was thinking of more current mainstream religious texts, as I would think some people would rank the Koran higher than the Bible. If you force people to read the Bible leave any other religious material up to them to find and read, then you are favouring Christianity over all other religions. It could be seen as "I have to read X, but Y and Z (while similar) aren't even mentioned, therefore X must be right.
Compulsive Depression
30-05-2007, 11:50
:eek: Goodness! It used to be mandatory! I would say it must have been a long time ago, but I saw it a year-ago in a bookstore in the "Madatory Reading" shelf.

This is an American thing, isn't it?
Cabra's not American.
Neither am I; I've never heard of your mythology book, nor of "mandatory reading".

I do rather like Norse mythology, though.
Big Jim P
30-05-2007, 11:50
If Mythology is forced upon them, shouldn't the Bible be?

I wouldn't force either on anyone not interested in reading them. Other than that, one mythology is as good as another as far as I am concererned. I am personally interested in mans religious myths in general and religious instict in general, but that doesn't give me the right to force my interests on anyone else.
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 11:51
I was thinking of more current mainstream religious texts, as I would think some people would rank the Koran higher than the Bible. If you force people to read the Bible leave any other religious material up to them to find and read, then you are favouring Christianity over all other religions. It could be seen as "I have to read X, but Y and Z (while similar) aren't even mentioned, therefore X must be right.

Not-at-all. I am not a Christian, and I find the Bible a bunch-of-gibberish. Still, I have given some very good points why it should be favoured above.
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 11:53
This is an American thing, isn't it?
Cabra's not American.
Neither am I; I've never heard of your mythology book, nor of "mandatory reading".

I do rather like Norse mythology, though.

I am a fan of Greek myslf.
So you folks have never heard of Edith Hamilton? She was given an honorary Athens citizenship, PLUS Mythology does include a tad Norse Mythology.
United Beleriand
30-05-2007, 11:54
If Mythology is forced upon them, shouldn't the Bible be?The Bible is a Mythology. And a poorly fabricated one, I must add.
Bad Linen
30-05-2007, 11:54
You, uh, obviously don't understand the definition of "troll".
Trolling: Posts that are made with the aim of angering people. (like 'ALL JEWS ARE [insert vile comment here]' for example). Also is used to refer to making obviously silly topics that people nonetheless will reply to. (making a case for the proof that teletubbies exist for instance. There will always be someone who feels compelled to post 'No they don't.' Threads like this should just be ignored.)"uh" yourself, Ace.
Hamilay
30-05-2007, 11:55
It really should, or at least part of it (it's kinda long-winded). Why? Well, for one thing it glimses into human-kind's psychology and motivations, and accomplished quite a bit (good and bad). I mean, think about it. Edith Haimilton's Mythology is mandatory, so this should be too.
I think Apollodorus' Bibliotheca should be mandatory too!

If anyone cares to disagree, please usher in your argument, although I can't see a single one being plausible.
The same argument can be applied to pretty much any famous book. You can hardly read them all. Isn't one of the major purposes of all great literature to glimpse into human psychology and motivations?

Besides, what is this mandatory reading? Is it just what it sounds like, or is it some kind of special program?
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 11:55
"uh" yourself, Ace.

:) You are quite unitelligent. Did you even read what I put there? I'm not saying "God created the world, not this evolution Devil! NOW TEACH THIS IN SCHOOL!". I'm talking sense, I'm not even a Christian. Read the damn post.
Peepelonia
30-05-2007, 11:56
It really should, or at least part of it (it's kinda long-winded). Why? Well, for one thing it glimses into human-kind's psychology and motivations, and accomplished quite a bit (good and bad). I mean, think about it. Edith Haimilton's Mythology is mandatory, so this should be too.
I think Apollodorus' Bibliotheca should be mandatory too!

If anyone cares to disagree, please usher in your argument, although I can't see a single one being plausible.

Sorry mandatory for whom? I for one have never read(nor even heard of before now) Edith Haimiltons' 'Mythology' so I wonder just how mandatory that is.
United Beleriand
30-05-2007, 11:57
First and foremost, the Silmarillion should be mandatory. ;)
Triera
30-05-2007, 11:58
Regarded higher priority by who? You absolutely and totally confuse me...

I'm a librarian, but I never heard of such a thing as "mandatory reading". What on earth are you on about?

Than you're a shitty librarian.
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 11:58
The same argument can be applied to pretty much any famous book. You can hardly read them all. Isn't one of the major purposes of all great literature to glimpse into human psychology and motivations?

The Bible has been the "best-selling" books for thousands of years, and is by a long-shot, sold the most copies of all-time. That means something.

Besides, what is this mandatory reading? Is it just what it sounds like, or is it some kind of special program?

It's what it sounds like. It generally includes some of the greatest works of all-time.
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 12:01
Sorry mandatory for whom? I for one have never read(nor even heard of before now) Edith Haimiltons' 'Mythology' so I wonder just how mandatory that is.

Perhaps they abolished it a bit-ago, but they used to have that you had to read certain works of fiction. Examples include Shakespear and copious poetry. I guess they simply don't do it anymore.
Maybe it's called "required reading". Yeah, that's it.
United Beleriand
30-05-2007, 12:03
The Bible has been the "best-selling" books for thousands of years, and is by a long-shot, sold the most copies of all-time. That means something.Yes, it means that human stupidity and arrogance comes in print.
Yootopia
30-05-2007, 12:03
I did
Ah. I see.
first, it's the most prominent relgious text by a long-shot.
Which is why most people interested will have it.
Second it's to due with date. It's incredibly old
As opposed to those new-fangled Greek texts, right?
and the fact that it's teachings are still given any heed shows how deeply rooted it is within society's conciousness.
Or possibly that if you have a book that presses the right buttons and is hyped from generation to generation, it will be read.

To be slightly more cynical.
Thirdy: It is directly responsible for the two most prominent religions (Christianism and Islam), and is the core of the OLDEST (Judaism).
... doesn't mattter, people can read the Torah and the Qu'ran without having to read the Bible first.
As for the 85% bit, I often look about the high-schoolers: I'll lay you 8 to 5 most haven't read a single word of it. Maybe their grandparents, but they haven't.
... that's why I said 'anyone who even the beginnings of cares'. Mandatory reading just pisses people off, and as far as religions go, that's a bit sad, because I personally feel that people should be educated about a great spread of religions, so they can find the right one for them.

If your population is already over 85% Christian, then that's about as much as you're going to get. Yeah, fine, give a few Bibles out, but they're not going to be needed nearly as much as a few Torahs, Qu'rans etc.
Hamilay
30-05-2007, 12:03
The Bible has been the "best-selling" books for thousands of years, and is by a long-shot, sold the most copies of all-time. That means something.



It's what it sounds like. It generally includes some of the greatest works of all-time.
Hasn't it been surpassed by Ikea catalogues as the most published material, though? :p

The Bible is arguably not one of the greatest works of all time, since 3 billion people would agree much of it is wrong. Influential, sure, but not great.
Yootopia
30-05-2007, 12:04
Perhaps they abolished it a bit-ago, but they used to have that you had to read certain works of fiction. Examples include Shakespear and copious poetry. I guess they simply don't do it anymore.
Maybe it's called "required reading". Yeah, that's it.
We don't have such things here in the UK and Ireland.
Tograna
30-05-2007, 12:04
If Mythology is forced upon them, shouldn't the Bible be?

Not read this Mythology book but I've a passing interest in classics, I think that the study of classical traditions and religions teaches people to look at modern ones with a pinch of salt.

By this I mean that at the very least people should realise that statistically the guy preaching how his religion is "the one true faith" is unlikely to be correct by virtue of the sheer number of belief systems in the past.

Me, I go one step further and say that all religion is tied inextricably to the culture in which it arose and to use a religion as the basis for your life is as absurd as trying to emulate a former civilisation in any other respect ..... Ok, toga parties are fun tho =)
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 12:04
Yes, it means that human stupidity comes in print.

:( Well, I suppose there goes the Illiad simply because it's not fact, and is stupid....
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 12:05
Not read this Mythology book but I've a passing interest in classics, I think that the study of classical traditions and religions teaches people to look at modern ones with a pinch of salt.

By this I mean that at the very least people should realise terehat statistically the guy preaching how his religion is "the one true faith" is unlikely to be correct by virtue of the sheer number of belief systems in the past.

Me, I go one step further and say that all religion is tied inextricably to the culture in which it arose and to use a religion as the basis for your life is as absurd as trying to emulate a former civilisation in any other respect ..... Ok, toga parties are fun tho =)

Here, here!
Peepelonia
30-05-2007, 12:06
Than you're a shitty librarian.

Ohh get you on your 31 post. How to make friends and influence people huh!?
Aurora Foundation
30-05-2007, 12:07
Not-at-all. I am not a Christian, and I find the Bible a bunch-of-gibberish. Still, I have given some very good points why it should be favoured above.

It has been mentioned that there are better references for looking into "human-kind's psychology and motivations". I would have said that it is a better (if not bias) book for the general lifestyle and beleifs of people around 2,000 years ago.
(of course there is also the problem of which parts and which version of the Bible "should" be read, but I don't know enough about the differences between them to go into that)
Peepelonia
30-05-2007, 12:07
Perhaps they abolished it a bit-ago, but they used to have that you had to read certain works of fiction. Examples include Shakespear and copious poetry. I guess they simply don't do it anymore.
Maybe it's called "required reading". Yeah, that's it.

Who? Who used to do this?
Yootopia
30-05-2007, 12:08
Here, here!
Care to address the arguments of my post instead of cheering people on who agree with you?
Big Jim P
30-05-2007, 12:08
Yes, it means that human stupidity and arrogance comes in print.

Almost sig worthy.:D
Hamilay
30-05-2007, 12:09
Here, here!

Dictionaries should be required reading. It's HEAR, HEAR! :mad:

Sorry. That tends to annoy me.
Razzatrania
30-05-2007, 12:11
I remember in high school in English we had a list of required texts to read. *shudders* And that was like..7 years ago.. Egad - time goes fast.

Mythology was never on it though - however that is an awesome book.

It was a relief to get away from the constant Ancient Egypt mythology being forced into me year after year; term after term...

I mean sure - Ancient Egypt was cool - but did I need a rehash in grade 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12??? I mean come on! ugh
Peepelonia
30-05-2007, 12:12
Dictionaries should be required reading. It's HEAR, HEAR! :mad:

Sorry. That tends to annoy me.

How do you know? the poster may have meant, look over here, take note of what I say, or indeed here I am here!:D
Hamilay
30-05-2007, 12:13
How do you know? the poster may have meant, look over here, take note of what I say, or indeed here I am here!:D

So he'd be saying he's an attention-whoring troll? :p
Myu in the Middle
30-05-2007, 12:13
First and foremost, the Silmarillion should be mandatory. ;)
The Silmarillion reads like the freakin' bible.

Incidentally, I'm opposed to the Bible being required reading, though I do think that a literary (read mythological, if you're so inclined) understanding of it is the best way to resist religious extremism.
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 12:13
Ah. I see.

As opposed to those new-fangled Greek texts, right?

No, the Greek texes are far-older, which is why I think they should definately be read.

If your population is already over 85% Christian, then that's about as much as you're going to get. Yeah, fine, give a few Bibles out, but they're not going to be needed nearly as much as a few Torahs, Qu'rans etc.

I own a copy of the Torah, and let-me-tell-you, it IS the Bible, just the first five books of Moses. As for the Koran, I'd have to take a look.
I'm not looking to convert people here (it annoys the heck outta me if some tries to convert me), I just think it IS an important document that should be studied. It obivously isn't fact, but it's an important part of modern-day culture, and it really is the most-read book ever-written, and should be read for the same reasons The Illiad should be read.
United Beleriand
30-05-2007, 12:14
I mean sure - Ancient Egypt was cool - but did I need a rehash in grade 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12??? I mean come on! ughWell, in 5 years you could have learned reading hieroglyphic texts. Did you?
United Beleriand
30-05-2007, 12:15
The Silmarillion reads like the freakin' bible.Blarb. If reading is too much for you, keep watching tv.
Compulsive Depression
30-05-2007, 12:17
Thirdy: It is directly responsible for the two most prominent religions (Christianism and Islam), and is the core of the OLDEST (Judaism).

Actually, Hinduism is the oldest "living" religion, starting 2500BC or earlier. Its ~900 million followers also dwarf Judaism's 14-16 million.
Razzatrania
30-05-2007, 12:17
Well, in 5 years you could have learned reading hieroglyphic texts. Did you?

I wish my high school had that kind of program.

No it was just standard: Gods, Cleopatra, Culture. With one term of token Greek Mythology thrown in for measure.
United Beleriand
30-05-2007, 12:17
:( Well, I suppose there goes the Illiad simply because it's not fact, and is stupid....It is neither stupid nor non-factual, at least definitely not more than the goddamn bible.
Peepelonia
30-05-2007, 12:17
The Silmarillion reads like the freakin' bible.

Incidentally, I'm opposed to the Bible being required reading, though I do think that a literary (read mythological, if you're so inclined) understanding of it is the best way to resist religious extremism.

The Bible is a great read, and pornographic also, heh all of that begeting!:eek:
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 12:17
Hasn't it been surpassed by Ikea catalogues as the most published material, though? :p

The Bible is arguably not one of the greatest works of all time, since 3 billion people would agree much of it is wrong. Influential, sure, but not great.

Not great? You don't consider Islam, Judaism, and Christianity, and all the good-and-bad they have done great?
Well, with this view, what book is precisely great?
Myu in the Middle
30-05-2007, 12:18
Blarb. If reading is too much for you, keep watching tv.
I've read it through, but you must admit, it's very scriptural in style. The number of times the phrase "It came to pass" appeared made me physically squirm.
Peepelonia
30-05-2007, 12:18
No, the Greek texes are far-older, which is why I think they should definately be read.



I own a copy of the Torah, and let-me-tell-you, it IS the Bible, just the first five books of Moses. As for the Koran, I'd have to take a look.
I'm not looking to convert people here (it annoys the heck outta me if some tries to convert me), I just think it IS an important document that should be studied. It obivously isn't fact, but it's an important part of modern-day culture, and it really is the most-read book ever-written, and should be read for the same reasons The Illiad should be read.

Umm would the reason be sumit about Homer, and umm doughnuts?
Yootopia
30-05-2007, 12:20
No, the Greek texes are far-older, which is why I think they should definately be read.
... not what you said.

"the Bible ranks Numero Uno; just as Greek Mythology is considered a higher priority then Norse."

Incidentally, since hardly anyone follows the ancient greek religion any more, why do you think that it's particularly important to reflect on their cultural impact, which is absolutely nothing in the modern world, outside of some nice buildings?
I own a copy of the Torah, and let-me-tell-you, it IS the Bible, just the first five books of Moses.
To the word?
As for the Koran, I'd have to take a look.
Good move.
I'm not looking to convert people here (it annoys the heck outta me if some tries to convert me), I just think it IS an important document that should be studied. It obivously isn't fact, but it's an important part of modern-day culture, and it really is the most-read book ever-written, and should be read for the same reasons The Illiad should be read.
But would you allow for interpretations that it IS fact, or would it be a mandatory read with a mandatory outcome for you?
Compulsive Depression
30-05-2007, 12:20
Mmmm, doughnuts...
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 12:20
Actually, Hinduism is the oldest "living" religion, starting 2500BC or earlier. Its ~900 million followers also dwarf Judaism's 14-16 million.

Hmm. Well, I am a member of semi-Hindu sect, so cool! But anyway, what does Hinduism's size have to do with anything? The two largest religions (Christianity and Islam) are around due-to the Bible.
United Beleriand
30-05-2007, 12:22
Actually, Hinduism is the oldest "living" religion, starting 2500BC or earlier. Its ~900 million followers also dwarf Judaism's 14-16 million.Yep, and there is no trace of Judaism prior to the Persian (Achaemenid) era. So in terms of religions Judaism surely isn't the oldest.
Yootopia
30-05-2007, 12:22
Blarb. If reading is too much for you, keep watching tv.
... there's a difference between a good book and a crap book. The Silmarrilion reads like LOTRPedia, and it adds reams of wasted paper to an already overlong and dull series of books.
Yootopia
30-05-2007, 12:24
Hmm. Well, I am a member of semi-Hindu sect, so cool! But anyway, what does Hinduism's size have to do with anything? The two largest religions (Christianity and Islam) are around due-to the Bible.
I thought you valued old texts...
United Beleriand
30-05-2007, 12:25
... there's a difference between a good book and a crap book. The Silmarrilion reads like LOTRPedia, and it adds reams of wasted paper to an already overlong and dull series of books.Go play in traffic.
Yootopia
30-05-2007, 12:26
Go play in traffic.
Really showing the depth of your argument there...
Peepelonia
30-05-2007, 12:26
Hmm. Well, I am a member of semi-Hindu sect, so cool! But anyway, what does Hinduism's size have to do with anything? The two largest religions (Christianity and Islam) are around due-to the Bible.

Ummm I always though that both Christianity and Islam, stemmed ultimatly from Judaisim, and so I would have said that they are around due to the multitude of Jewish holy scripture.

What sort of semi-Hindu sect BTW, whats it called?
United Beleriand
30-05-2007, 12:27
...the multitude of Jewish holy scripture.Such as?
Bottle
30-05-2007, 12:28
It really should, or at least part of it (it's kinda long-winded). Why? Well, for one thing it glimses into human-kind's psychology and motivations, and accomplished quite a bit (good and bad). I mean, think about it. Edith Haimilton's Mythology is "required reading", so this should be too.
I think Apollodorus' Bibliotheca should be mandatory too!

If anyone cares to disagree, please usher in your argument, although I can't see a single one being plausible.

EDIT: It's called "required reading", not "mandatory reading".
I agree, simply because I've found that the best and fastest way to get somebody to leave Christianity is to have them actually read the Bible from cover to cover.

Doesn't work 100% of the time, but it's got a higher success rate than any other de-conversion method I've encountered.
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 12:29
... not what you said.

"the Bible ranks Numero Uno; just as Greek Mythology is considered a higher priority then Norse."

I meant as far as modern-religous texts go.

Incidentally, since hardly anyone follows the ancient greek religion any more, why do you think that it's particularly important to reflect on their cultural impact, which is absolutely nothing in the modern world, outside of some nice buildings?

The metaphors, and the fact that it the first real literature (secretly, I also enjoy the stories, but keep quiet about it).

To the word?

It depends on the translation. Yes, many copies are word-for-word. And as for the ones that aren't, they are only minorly different, as any book translated by other publishers would be. For instance, if I pick-up a copy the "The Prince", reading a differnet translation will not make it a different book.
I study them both, trust me, okay?

Good move.

I know there are differences (Like Ishamel and the Ax), but they mostly agree. But yes, I will have to look at the Koran.

But would you allow for interpretations that it IS fact, or would it be a mandatory read with a mandatory outcome for you?

Freedom of speech, the students could believe whatever-they wanted. Could the teachers call it fact? NO, absoulutely NOT.
Compulsive Depression
30-05-2007, 12:29
Hmm. Well, I am a member of semi-Hindu sect, so cool! But anyway, what does Hinduism's size have to do with anything? The two largest religions (Christianity and Islam) are around due-to the Bible.

Judaism's always given such a lot of importance, but it's actually a tiny religion. Nobody's mentioned reading the texts of the third-largest, and oldest living, religion in the world. Why not?
How many people here can even name them? I can't, and I just looked them up...
Peepelonia
30-05-2007, 12:32
Such as?

Come now, you know.
Yootopia
30-05-2007, 12:34
I meant as far as modern-religous texts go.
Your argument is somewhat unravelling...
The metaphors, and the fact that it the first real literature (secretly, I also enjoy the stories, but keep quiet about it).
Metaphors - Meh, not particularly of cultural relevance.
First real literature - What about the Indian stuff?
It depends on the translation. Yes, many copies are word-for-word. And as for the ones that aren't, they are only minorly different, as any book translated by other publishers would be. For instance, if I pick-up a copy the "The Prince", reading a differnet translation will not make it a different book.
I study them both, trust me, okay?
Fair enough.
I know there are differences (Like Ishamel and the Ax), but they mostly agree. But yes, I will have to look at the Koran.
Quite.
Freedom of speech, the students could believe whatever-they wanted. Could the teachers call it fact? NO, absoulutely NOT.
Freedom of speech goes for teachers too, no?
Guardsland
30-05-2007, 12:35
It really should, or at least part of it (it's kinda long-winded). Why? Well, for one thing it glimses into human-kind's psychology and motivations, and accomplished quite a bit (good and bad). I mean, think about it. Edith Haimilton's Mythology is "required reading", so this should be too.
I think Apollodorus' Bibliotheca should be mandatory too!

If anyone cares to disagree, please usher in your argument, although I can't see a single one being plausible.

EDIT: It's called "required reading", not "mandatory reading".

If we are making fiction compolsory, why don't me make it compulsory to read Harry Potter?
Bottle
30-05-2007, 12:36
The metaphors, and the fact that it the first real literature (secretly, I also enjoy the stories, but keep quiet about it).

Wait, I want to make sure I understand correctly here:

Are you saying the Bible is "the first real literature"?
United Beleriand
30-05-2007, 12:37
I agree, simply because I've found that the best and fastest way to get somebody to leave Christianity is to have them actually read the Bible from cover to cover.Yep.

Doesn't work 100% of the time, but it's got a higher success rate than any other de-conversion method I've encountered.There are always some unteachables.
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 12:38
What sort of semi-Hindu sect BTW, whats it called?

It's not techinically a "sect", as you can be part of any religion while your in it, because it's not called a religion (altough it functions as one).
Basically it's this: it agrees with Hindus on most things (not to eat meat, reincarnation, ect.), but it has a "living master". You see, it says all the religious leaders (Mohammed, Jesus, Buddah, Moses, ect.) took on the "Karma" of their desciples, and died for their sins (it does disagree with Christianity somewhat here. It says Christ died for his original 12 desciples, but not the whole world, as crucifiction couldn't foot-the-bill). It says everything started out this way, but when the founders died, it became corrupted into a religion, as it will one-day, and it warns-us, NOT to follow it once it beocomes an official relgion. It DOES have a saint, who is supposed to suffer for his disciples's sin, and thus purge them.

I could tell you more if care to hear, but you probably don't.
Cabra West
30-05-2007, 12:38
Perhaps they abolished it a bit-ago, but they used to have that you had to read certain works of fiction. Examples include Shakespear and copious poetry. I guess they simply don't do it anymore.
Maybe it's called "required reading". Yeah, that's it.

I seem to remember "required reading" for people studying a certain subject at university, as such I would assume that the bible it required if you study theology.
Other than that, I've never heard of it for schools, and I greatly object to the very idea.
Cabra West
30-05-2007, 12:39
Than you're a shitty librarian.

Nope. There simply is no such thing at schools where I come from. And I must say I'm very surprised that there is mandatory literature anywhere these days.
United Beleriand
30-05-2007, 12:39
Nope. There simply is no such thing at schools where I come from. And I must say I'm very surprised that there is mandatory literature anywhere these days.Only where folks don't read at all normally...
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 12:39
Such as?

The Torrah, aka. the Old Testament.
United Beleriand
30-05-2007, 12:40
Come now, you know.What multitude?
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 12:41
Freedom of speech goes for teachers too, no?

Hell NO. Not if their being paid to teach! They can talk about whatever they want to talk about with their friends off-duty, but as for the kids? They can't say what they want, call it fact, and then expect to be paid for it as teaching fact.
Razzatrania
30-05-2007, 12:42
It's not techinically a "sect", as you can be part of any religion while your in it, because it's not called a religion (altough it functions as one).
Basically it's this: it agrees with Hindus on most things (not to eat meat, reincarnation, ect.), but it has a "living master". You see, it says all the religious leaders (Mohammed, Jesus, Buddah, Moses, ect.) took on the "Karma" of their desciples, and died for their sins (it does disagree with Christianity somewhat here. It says Christ died for his original 12 desciples, but not the whole world, as crucifiction couldn't foot-the-bill). It says everything started out this way, but when the founders died, it became corrupted into a religion, as it will one-day, and it warns-us, NOT to follow it once it beocomes an official relgion. It DOES have a saint, who is supposed to suffer for his disciples's sin, and thus purge them.

I could tell you more if care to hear, but you probably don't.


It sounds like a half-assed version of Mormonism, Christianity and Hinduism. All rolled into a scary ball.
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 12:42
Wait, I want to make sure I understand correctly here:

Are you saying the Bible is "the first real literature"?

No, Greek Mythology.
United Beleriand
30-05-2007, 12:43
The Torrah, aka. the Old Testament.You call that a multitude? And the Torah is only Genesis thru Deuteronomy. The Old Testament is the Tanakh, i.e. Torah+Neviim+Ketuvim.
Cabra West
30-05-2007, 12:43
Only where folks don't read at all normally...

You'd be surprised... one thing working in libraries does for you is open your eyes to how much people actually read. Or rather, don't read. And how many functional analphabets there are in the general population.
Peepelonia
30-05-2007, 12:43
It's not techinically a "sect", as you can be part of any religion while your in it, because it's not called a religion (altough it functions as one).
Basically it's this: it agrees with Hindus on most things (not to eat meat, reincarnation, ect.), but it has a "living master". You see, it says all the religious leaders (Mohammed, Jesus, Buddah, Moses, ect.) took on the "Karma" of their desciples, and died for their sins (it does disagree with Christianity somewhat here. It says Christ died for his original 12 desciples, but not the whole world, as crucifiction couldn't foot-the-bill). It says everything started out this way, but when the founders died, it became corrupted into a religion, as it will one-day, and it warns-us, NOT to follow it once it beocomes an official relgion. It DOES have a saint, who is supposed to suffer for his disciples's sin, and thus purge them.

I could tell you more if care to hear, but you probably don't.


On the contary mankinds quest for God in all of it's forms interests me a great deal(I'm a tad sad that way) please continue. From what you say I'm thinking either the Bahai faith or perhaps that very stange thing called Eckankar?
Yootopia
30-05-2007, 12:44
Hell NO. Not if their being paid to teach! They can talk about whatever they want to talk about with their friends off-duty, but as for the kids? They can't say what they want, call it fact, and then expect to be paid for it as teaching fact.
Wouldn't it extend to speaking their own views on the subject, as well as teaching it, though.

In a kind of "in my opinion, this is a fact - but you can make your minds up" way.
Gothria
30-05-2007, 12:44
No, I disagree. Comparing the Bible to other books just because it's around the same length is impotent, the connotations of the content are way too prominent. If it's in a religious context, certainly, but otherwise it's just another example of having religion shoved down your throat whether you believe it or not.

In closing, :fluffle:
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 12:44
You call that a multitude? And the Torah is only Genesis thru Deuteronomy. The Old Testament is the Tanakh, i.e. Torah+Neviim+Ketuvim.

Yes, the Tanakh. I own that, it's just so-many people don't know what it is, but recognize "Torrah", so that's what I said.
Bottle
30-05-2007, 12:45
No, Greek Mythology.
Oh.

Then you're still wrong.

Try Gilgamesh. Or the Tao Te Ching.
United Beleriand
30-05-2007, 12:47
Yes, the Tanakh. I own that, it's just so-many people don't know what it is, but recognize "Torrah", so that's what I said.People on this forum know what the Tanakh is. :rolleyes:
Peepelonia
30-05-2007, 12:47
What multitude?

*sigh* The Torrah, The Talmund, The Mishna.
Compulsive Depression
30-05-2007, 12:47
If we are making fiction compolsory, why don't me make it compulsory to read Harry Potter?

Especially as, by my maths, if the rate-of-sale of the Bible since 1815 remains constant (>5,000 million sold so far), and the rate-of-sale of Harry Potter since 1997 remains constant (>325 million sold so far), HP will finally have sold more copies than the Bible in about 723.87 years; about mid-April 2731.

'Course, there's a new Harry Potter book out next month; that may swing the sales-figures in the boy wizard's favour...
NERVUN
30-05-2007, 12:47
The metaphors, and the fact that it the first real literature (secretly, I also enjoy the stories, but keep quiet about it).
But, sadly, you have left out the first novel on your list.
United Beleriand
30-05-2007, 12:50
Oh.

Then you're still wrong.

Try Gilgamesh. Or the Tao Te Ching.Yep. Try Gilgamesh.

Tablet 1

Column 1

Fame haunts the man who visits Hell,
who lives to tell my entire tale identically.
So like a sage, a trickster or saint,
GILGAMESH
was a hero who knew secrets
and saw forbidden places,
who could even speak of the time before the
Flood because he lived long, learned much,
and spoke his life to those who first
cut into clay his bird-like words.
10. He commanded walls for Uruk and for Eanna,
our holy ground,
walls that you can see still; walls where weep
the weary windows of dead soldiers.
Go to them and touch their immovable presence
with gentle fingers to find yourself.
No one else ever built such walls.
Climb Uruk's Tower and walk abut on a
windy night. Look. Touch. Taste. Sense.
What force created such mass?
20. Open up the special box that's hidden in the wall
and read aloud the story of Gilgamesh's life.
Learn what sorrow taught him; learn of the those
he overcome by wit or force or fear as he,
a town's best child, acted nobly in the way
one should to lead and acted wisely too
as one who sought no fame.
Child of Lugal banda's wife and some great force,
Gilgamesh is a fate alive, the
finest babe of Ninsun, she who never
30. let a man touch her, indeed
so sure and heavenly, so without sin.
He knew the secret paths that reached the eagle's
nest above the mountain and and knew too how
just to drop a well into the chilly earth.
He sailed the sea to where Shamash comes,
explored the world, sought life, and came at last
to Utnapishtim far away who did bring
back to life the flooded earth.
Is there anywhere a greater king
40. how can say, as Gilgamesh may
"I am supreme"?

Column 2

The bigger part of him was made in heaven
and the smaller part somewhere on earth.
She-who-must-be-obeyed fashioned his body's self.
She endowed him.
Gilgamesh watches the flocks of Uruk himself
as if he were a loose bull, nose up in open field.
No one else could come close to fighting like that.
His clan is roused by howling dreams
50. And with them all he goes howling through sanctuaries.
But would he ever let his child come
To see him ravish others?
"Is this shepherd of Uruk's flocks,
our strength, our light, our reason,
who hoards the girls of other men
for his own purpose?"
When Anu in the sky heard this,
70. he said to Aruru, great goddess of creation that she is:
"You created humans; create again in the
image of Gilgamesh and let this imitation be
as quick in heart and as strong in arm
so that these counterforces might first engage,
then disengage, and finally let Uruk's children
live in peace."
Hearing that, Aruru thought of Anu. Then she
wet her creative fingers, fashioned a rock, and tossed it
as far as she could into the woods.
80. Thus she fathered Enkidu, a forster, and gave birth
in terror and in fright without a single cry of pain,
bringing forth another likeness of Ninurta, god of war.
Hair covered his body and his curls resembled
those of any good girl, growing swiftly like the
fair hair of Nisaba-giver-of-grain.
This Enkidu had neither clan nor race. He went
clothed as one who shepherds well, eating the food
of grass, drinking from the watery holes of herds
and racing swift as wind or silent water.
90. Then Enkidu met a hunter at the watery hole
on three consecutive days.
And each time the face of the hunter signaled
recognition of Enkidu.
Ror the herds were uninvited at
the hunter's oasis and the hunter was
disturbed by this intrusion. His quiet heart
rushed up in trouble. His eyes darkened.
Fear leaped forth onto a face that looks
as if it expects to doubt for a long, long time.

Column 3

100. Then with trembling lips the hunter told his father this complaint:
"Sir, one has come to my watery hole from afar and he
is the biggest and best throughout the land. He feels power.
His is a strength like that of Anu's swift star, and
tirelessly does he roam across the land.
He eats the food of beasts and, like the beasts,
he comes at will to drink from my watery hole.
In fear do I see him come to undo
what I have done by wrecking traps, by
bursting mounds, by letting animals slip through my
110. grasp, beasts that I would bind."
Then with hateful lips, the father told the hunter his reply:
"Boy, your answer lies in Uruk where
there stalks a man of endless strength named Gilgamesh.
He is the biggest and best throughout the land. He feels power.
His is a strength like that of Anu's swift star.
Start out toward Uruk's ancient palace
and tell your tale to Gilgamesh.
In turn he'll say to set a trap, take back with
you a fine lover, some sacred temple girl,
120. who might let him see what force and charm a girl can have.
Then as Enkidu comes again to the watery hole,
let her strip in nearby isolation to show him all her grace.
If he is drawn toward her, and leaves the herd to mate,
his beasts on high will leave him then behind."
The hunter heard his father well and went that very night
to Uruk where he said this to Gilgamesh:
"There is someone from afar whose
force is great throughout our land.
130. His is a strength throughout the land. He feels power.
His is a strength like that of Anu's swift star, and
tirelessly does he roam across the land.
He eats the food of beasts and, like the beasts,
he comes at will to drink from my watery hole.
In fear do I see him come to undo
what I have done by wrecking traps, by
bursting mounds, by letting animals slip through my
grasp, beasts that I would bind."
So Gilgamesh replied:
"Go set a trap; take back with
140. you a fine lover, Shamhat, the sacred temple girl,
who might let him see what charm and force a girl can have.
Then as Enkidu comes again to the watery hole,
let her strip in nearby isolation to show him all her grace.
If he is drawn toward her, and leaves the herd to mate,
his beasts on high will leave him then behind."
The hunter returned, bringing with him the sacred temple girl,
and swift was their journey.
Three days later, at the watery hole, they set their
trap for Enkidu and spoke no word for two
150. whole days waiting and waiting and waiting.
Then the herd came slowly in to drink.

Column 4

Beasts arose and sleepy limbs began to flutter then.
Enkidu, the boy who walked on mountains,
who eats the food of beasts and, like the beasts,
comes down at will to drink from the watery hole,
with the beasts arose and stretched
his tired limbs to start the day.
She beheld him then, as he was in his beginning,
the one who gave and took life from the far woods.
160. "Here is he, fine lover; be set to wet him with
your tongue and chest and loins.
Spread forth your happiness. Display your hidden charm.
jump him fast and kneel upon his shoulders.
Without his wind then, he'll enter near your entrance.
Take off your robe to let him in.
Let him see what force a girl can have.
The friends he has from on wild will exile him
if he presses his person, as he will, into your scented bush.
" Shamhat let her garments loose and spread forth
170. her happiness which Enkidu entered as gusts of wind
enter tunnels bound for Hell.
Hot and swollen first, she jumped him fast
knocking out his rapid breath with
thrust after loving thrust.
She let him see what force a girl can have,
and he stayed within her scented bush for
seven nights, leaping, seeping, weeping, and sleeping there.
After that week of pleasure,
Enkidu returned to the herds
180. but the beasts fled from him in haste.
They stampeded away from his new self.
He could no longer race as he had once,
legs soft now and ankles stiff. The beasts
left him behind and he grew sad
that he could no longer speed with them.
But he enjoyed the memory that no virgin has
and, returning to his fine lover, he once
more knelt between her legs
as she spoke these words to him:
190. "Now you are as if a god, my boy,
with no more need of dumb beasts, however fair.
We can now ascend the road to Uruk's palace,
the immaculate domicile, where Anu and Ishtar dwell,
and there we will see Gilgamesh, the powerful,
who rides over the herd like any great king."
These words he heard and he stared at her.
For the first time he wished for just one friend.
Then Enkidu asked the love who was so fine:
"Please come with me and be my love
200. at the immaculate domicile, where Anu and Ishtar dwell,
and there we will see Gilgamesh, the powerful,
who rides over the herd like any great king.
I wish to call on him; to proclaim all things
aloud and find a friend in him."

Column 5

Enkidu continued:
"Uruk will hear me say, 'I am the strongest.
I alone can do all I wish.'
Forester that I am, a mountainous power is mine.
210. We should march together, face-by-face,
so I can promote your fame."
Then fine lover said these words in invitation:
"Enter Uruk of the herds, Enkidu,
where costumes bright are worn,
where it is always time to party,
where merry music never fades,
where graceful girls do ever play
with toys and boys and men;
for in the night these revelers do
their best to rule the town.
220. There, with a smile, Enkidu
will see his other self, great Gilgamesh.
Watch him all, please. Note his
face, his fists, his fairest sword,
and all the strength that dwells in him.
Could he be greater than you,
this one who's up and down all day and night?
Fear your own anger, boy; for great Gilgamesh
adores fair Shamash and is adored in turn.
Anu of the blue sky, Enlil from the clouds
230. and clever Ea have empowered him.
And before he even sees you,
this great Gilgamesh will have first envisioned you
in Uruk as a rival in a dream."
Gilgamesh awakens to ask his mother, Ninsun,
to leave off the dream.
"Mother," says he, "I saw a star
within my head in sleep just now
that fell at me like Anu's dart
and I could not escape.
240. Uruk was on high of it,
our people did applaud,
and gathered Lip to praise his force.
Men clenched fists; women danced.
And I too embraced this rising star,
as a man does the woman he loves best,
then took the new one here to you
so that you could see us both at once."
Gilgamesh's mother, who is wise in all and worries not, replied:
"This bright, new star is your true friend
250. who fell at you like Anu's dart,
whom you could not escape."

Column 6

Then she who is wise in all and worries not continued:
"So say this friend is one who is almighty,
with strength renowned around the world,
like Anu's dart his force is real
so that he draws you in, as does a wife,
though he is sure to race away, like
that most distant star, with the secrets of your origin.
This dissolves your sleep."
260. Then again, Gilgamesh said to her in reply:
"Mother, I slept when some with axes then
attacked the herds of Uruk."
So Ninsun reassured the frightened king:
"Enkidu will help.
He will guard his loves
or rescue them from danger;
he is your most faithful friend.
Expect him to shepherd you
and to be sure that all goes well."
270. Gilgamesh said to his fond source:
"I pray for fortune and for fate
to send me such a one
that I may have a friend who's as kind
and patient as a brother."
Then in sleep full of repose
the temple girl enchanted Enkidu
where they lay smiling.

Column 1

Then Gilgamesh explained his dream to Ninsun:
"Last night a vision filled my head
with sights of stars and one sent down from heaven.
At first I tried and failed to carry forth
these signs with me. Then all citizens
of Uruk here assisted in my efforts.
So I was able then to bring these omens near to you."
And she said in reply:
"Wisely done, fair son, and rightly so
10. for one well reared as you were.
All others too will soon acclaim
this god-sent gift to you."
Then Gilgamesh concluded:
"In another dream I saw an ax
and bent toward it with manly interest;
so fair was its appearance
that it seemed wholesome, young and
ready as a woman."

Column 2

Soon the day came when the fine lover of Enkidu said:
20. "Now come with me to enter into Uruk
where we shall meet the mighty king,
enormous Gilgamesh.
Now you are as if a god, my boy,
with no more need of dumb beasts, however fair.
We can ascend the road to Uruk's palace,
the immaculate domicile, where Anu and Ishtar dwell
and there we will see Gilgamesh, the powerful,
who rides over the herd like any great king.
You will see in him a power rare
30. and fairly learn to love him like yourself."
They journeyed from the forest far and wide
to venture on toward Uruk.
The girl led forth the naked boy
as gently as a mother would,
tearing her garment right in two
to hide their native beauty
and clothed his splendid body then
with her own cloak as they approached.

Column 3

Along the way he learned new human ways
40. tracking down the gentle sheep
and using weapons for the first time
to fight away the savage beasts
that do attack the herds and
farms of men.

Column 4

Along the way he also learned to eat and drink
as men and women do. The girl did
teach all these things too for Enkidu's first lessons.
And with a man upon the road they spoke
to learn of customs new. to one from
50. far off woods. So Enkidu came then
to know of GilgamesH who harshly
ruled and was not loved by those men whose girls
he often played with all night long.
And before they entered through the
gates of Uruk's mighty, walls, Enkidu
was hailed as one who might
be sent to rival any king who
might treat gentle folk unfairly.

Column 5

In the alleys of Uruk
60. during a display of force
the approach of Enkidu stopped everything.
Uruk rose before him.
The mountain beyond stretched skyward.
All creatures worshiped him.
Youths rallied round.
People adored him as they adore a newborn babe.
For so it is when one comes from nowhere
to do what no one thought could be done.
For Ishara then a wedding bed is set this night
70. because a guest has come who is as strong as any king.
And Enkidu stood before the gate where new lovers go
and stopped Gilgamesh from coming with nighttime girls.
It is there where they first fight
throughout the night and round abut Uruk’s walls
which they chipped and wrecked in places.

Column 6

So the mighty brothers fought at first
pushing and shoving each other
for hours and hours enraged.
Then a calm force gently soothed
80. then well-matched spirits
to bring a peace and rest their strife.
It was Enkidu who sued for rest saying:
"Gilgamesh, enough! I am here to
match some fate with you, not
to destroy or rival any king."

Column 1

Then Enkidu and Gilgamesh joined in
sacred friendship and sealed their solemn
bond with noble kiss.

Column 2

Enkidu and Gilgamesh often sat then together,
visited Ninsun's shrine, conversed
of many plans and fashioned a future together.
Once, informed by fears of
future sorrow, Enkidu began
to weep and warn his friend of
10. coming horror. He said:
"If we go there beyond here to where
Humbaba-the-awful lives,
there will be a gruesome war
in a place no one calls home,
where no one wants to stay for long
or go to rest or rest to gain
the strength to reach the forests."
The Great One rose within
and robed herself appropriately
20. covering herself,
ringing her curls beneath her crown
to ascend the altar, where she stood
lighting the first signals of charcoal for the incense
and preparing sacred cups that hold the
precious liquids which will be spilled.
Then Ninsun asked Shamash:
"Why?
Why have you called my only son away
and shaped his mind in so disturbed a way?
30. For now, he says, you invite him to begin a
pilgrimage that ends where Humbaba
directs a never ending battle,
along a foreign, lonely road
far within the forests dark and damp
where a man like him might just kill
a god like Humbaba or be killed
to dissolve the pain that you, Shamash, oppose."

Column 3

Humbaba stirs within the darkened wood
and in the hearts of men there rises fear.
40. When Enkidu spoke at last to Gilgamesh
he said these words of warning:
"I knew this monster's reputation long ago.
Fire and death mix in his breath,
and I for one do not wish now
to challenge such a demon."
But Gilgamesh retorted: "All glory
will be ours if now we conquer
this unprecedented foe and risk the
woe that frightens others."
50. And Enkidu said then in swift reply:
"How shall we go towards woods
so fiercely guarded?"

Column 4

Enlil it was who sent Humbaba there
to scare away intruders with fierce
and frightening howls. Great Gilgamesh
remembered that when he spoke words like these
to Enkidu: "Only gods live forever
with Shamash, my friend; for even our
longest days are numbered. Why worry over
60. being like dust in the wind? Leap up for
this great threat. Fear not. Even if I were
to fail and fall in combat,
all future clans would say I did the job."
Special weapons then were ordered to be made
for their assault upon Humbaba.
Axes, swords, and combat saddles were prepared
and all of Uruk's population flocked round
their great departure.

Column 5

The awful monster's reputation
70. made Uruk's gentle people fear
for their great king. And after
all the plans were made to start
out to fight Humbaba, a group
came forward to see the king.
The elders spoke to Gilgamesh:
"Fear the force that you control, hot-headed boy;
Be sure you watch where you direct
your every, heavy swing in battle.
Vanguards protect.
80. Friends save friends.
Let Enkidu lead on the way
through forests that he knows.
He knows how to fight in woodlands;
he knows where to pick his fight.
Enkidu will shield his bosom too
as well as that of his companion
so as to protect them both.
He'll traverse any ditch of any width.
Enkidu will guard our king.
90. Be sure to bring him safely back."
Gilgamesh said to Enkidu:
"Arise, my other self, and speed your way to Egalmah
to where my mother sits, kind Ninsun.
She understands all I need to know.
She'll tell us where we should go and what to do."
Again the men embraced as teammates do.
Gilgamesh and Enkidu set out to Egalmah.

Column 6

Upset by all his thoughts of coming battles
and concerned by his consultations with the gods,
100. Gilgamesh then sadly set his palace rooms in order.
His weapons were prepared, his helmet shined
and garments freshly cleaned.
Citizens of Uruk came to say good-bye and
wish their daring king farewell.
"Go careful through this risky, bold adventure,
mighty lord. Be sure of your own safety first of all."
So spoke the elders of his town and then continued:
"Let Enkidu take risks for you and have him
lead the way through woods he knows so well.
110. Pray that Shamash show him, as your guide,
the nearest path and choicest route to
where you dare to go.
May great Lugalbanda favor you in combat with Humbaba."
Then Enkidu himself spoke finally to his king:
"The time is right for us to now depart.
Follow me, sir, along the savage way
to where a worthy opponent,
the awful beast Humbaba,
waits for your challenge in the
120. dark woodlands that he guards.
Do not fear this. Rely on me
in every matter for your most and let me act
as careful guide for you most daring venture."

Column 1 and 2

Ten miles into the march, they stopped to cat,
After thirty miles, they rested,
then finished another twenty miles that day.
Within three days they covered
what would take others a month and a half to travel.
They dug for water where
there appeared to be none
in the dry desert on their way
to challenge Humbaba.

Column 3 and 4

10. Onward ventured Gilgamesh and Enkidu
And they both knew where danger lurked
at their first destination.
As up they climbed upon the final hill,
they saw a guard put out by Humbaba
as fierce as any watchdog.
Gilgamesh pursued first.

Column 5

Gilgamesh heard shouts from
Enkidu who said to his companion:
"Remember promises we made
20. in the city where we live. Recall
the courage and the force
we vowed to bring upon this mission."
These words dispelled the fear felt
in his heart and Gilgamesh in
return then shouted back:
"Quick. Grab the guard
and don't let go.
Race fearlessly and don't let go.
Our enemy, Humbaba, has set out seven uniforms
30. but has only dressed in one
so far. So six layers of strength
are yet unused by him."
As one mad brute he is enraged,
bellowing loudly while the foresters warn each other
what he's like.

Column 6

Wounded in combat with the guard they killed,
Enkidu uses words to say:
"I lost my strength in this crushed hand when the gate
slammed shut.
What shall I do?"
40. Then Gilgamesh spoke: "Brother,
as a man in tears would, you transcend all the rest who've gathered,
for you can cry and kill
with equal force.
Hold my hand in yours,
and we will not fear what hands like ours can do
Scream in unison, we will ascend
to death or love, to say in song what we shall do.
Our cry will shoot afar so
50. this new weakness, awful doubt,
will pass through you.
Stay, brother, let us ascend as one."

Column 1

Gilgamesh and Enkidu froze and stared into the woods'
great depth and height. When they spied
Humbaba's path, they found the opening toward
straight passage. Then they were able to find and see
the home of the gods, the paradise of Ishtar's other self,
called Imini-most-attra'ctive.
All beauty true is ever there
where gods do dwell, where there is
cool shade and harmony and
10. sweet-odored food to match their mood.

Column 2

Missing.

Column 3

Then Gilgamesh envisioned yet again
another dream
high up in the hills where boulders crashed.
Again Enkidu said to his brother,
as he unraveled this dreary story for his king:
"Brother, your song is a fine omen.
This dream will make you well.
Brother, that vision you saw is rich
20. for on that mountain top
we can capture Humbaba and
hurl his earthly form from
towering cliffs through sky to
earth, making his shape
as flat and wide as it is round and high."
"Mountain, mountain in the sky,
Break the god and make him die."

Column 4

Mountain-on-high then sent the myth into Enkidu's sleep,
and a chill from the high winds forced him to rest,
30. since he was blown around as grain is on open field.
Curled up in a ball, Gilgamesh rested
in blessed sleep, the best of friends at the worst of times.
But by the moon's half way course, he rose
and then began to speak:
"Brother, if you made no noise, what sound woke me?
If you didn't jostle me, what shook my body?
There was no god nearby, so why am I so stunned?
Brother, I've had a third vision in sleep
and I am deeply frightened to recall it all.
40. Sky screamed. And Mother Earth moaned.
Sun went out of light and blackest night
enveloped the heavens.
Then came flashes of lightning, source of fire.
Storm clouds raced nearby and swept all life away
from out of the sky above our heads.
Brightness dissolved, light evaporated;
cinders turned to ash.
When we leave the mountain, this is what we will remember."
When Enkidu learned this myth as told,
50. he replied to Gilgamesh:
"Shamash, your god, creates a great attraction
for both of us. Shamash now approves
of this attack upon Humbaba. Take the sign
as some divine dream to urge us on."
Shamash himself said such words to Gilgamesh
as if in prayer:
"Do not balk now, favored one.
Brace yourself for battle and proceed."
Heavenly winds blasted down from out of the sky
60. about and all around Humbaba. From east and
west, with sand and grain, they blew him
back and forth. His giant self became
fatigued. His awesome strength dwindled.
Not even his great right foot could step away in flight.
So in this way, by Shamash's intervention,
Humbaba-the-awful beast was brought so low.

Column 5

Missing.

Column 6

The dying beast called out for mercy once
and part of what he said could still be heard over the howling winds:
"Please, Gilgamesh! Have mercy on me, wounded.
70. I shall freely give you all the lumber of my mighty realm
and work for you both day and night."
It was Enkidu then who shouted louder
than the beast and with his words he
urged a swift conclusion:
"Kill the beast now, Gilgamesh. Show
no weak or silly mercy toward so sly a foe."
Taking his companion’s mean advice, Gilgamesh
seiftly cut the beast, splattering blood upon
his cloak and sandals then. Soiled by this
80. violent conflict, the friends began their
journey back to Uruk’s towering walls
expecting now to be received as heroes who
had fought and won a legendary battle.

Tablet 6

Gilgamesh bathed himself and cleaned his hair,
as beautiful as it was long.
He cast off bloodied robes and put on his favorite gown,
secured the cincture and stood royal.
Then Gilgamesh put on his crown.
Ishtar looked up at Gilgamesh's handsome pride.
"Come to me," she whispered. "Come to me and be my groom.
Let me taste all parts of you,
treat you as husband, be treated as your wife.
10. And as a gift I'd give to you
one regal coach of gold and blue
with wheels of yellow and all so new
that I would flatter all your might
with the sight of demons driven off
by my own god, by my own man.
Come to my home, most sweetly scented of all places,
where holy faces wash your feet with tears as
do the priests and priestesses of gods like Anu.
All mighty hands of kings and queens
20. will open doors for you.
So too will all the countryside donate
in duplicate to your fold.
And the slow will race ahead for you,
so that by association, all that you touch
will turn to gold."
Gilgamesh replied to mighty Ishtar thus:
"But how could I repay you as a wife
and still avoid the bitterness and strife that follow you?
Is it perfume for a dress you want, or me?
30. My self or something wrapped around a tree?
Do I offer you food, sweet nuts or grapes?
Are those for gods or for the savage apes?
And who will pour a treat to us in bed,
you dressed for life and me as if I'm dead?
Here's a song I made for you
Ishtar's the hearth gone cold,
a broken door, without the gold;
a fort that shuts its soldiers out,
40. a water well that's filled with doubt;
tar that can't be washed away,
a broken cup, stained and gray;
rock that shatters to dust and sand,
a useless weapon in the hand;
and worse than that or even this,
a god's own sandal filled with piss.
You've had your share of boys, that's true,
but which of them came twice for you?
Let me now list the ones that you just blew away.
50. First was Tammuz, the virgin boy you took
after a three-year-long seductive look.
Then you lusted for a fancy, colored bird
and cut its wing so it could not herd.
Thus in the lovely woods at night
bird sings, 'I'm blind. I have no sight.'
You trapped a lion, too, back then.
Its cock went in your form-as-hen.
And then you dug him seven holes
in which to fall on sharpened poles.
60. You let a horse in your back door
by laying on a stable floor;
but then you built the world's first chain
to choke his throat and end his reign.
You let him run with all his might,
as boys will sometimes do at night,
before you harnessed his brute force
with labor fierce, a mean divorce.
So did his mother weep and wail
to see her child's foot set with a nail.
70. You fondled once a shepherd boy
who baked buns for your tongue's joy
and daily killed his lambs so coy.
So in return for gifts like those
you chose to lupinize his toy.
And when his brothers saw his penis
they knew you'd done something heinous.
Ishullanu trimmed your father's trees
and brought you carrots, dates and peas.
So mighty you sat down to feasts,
80. then turned your thoughts to raping beasts.
You saw him naked once and said:
'Come, Ishullanu, into my bed
and force your force into my head.
Place your fingers where men dread
to touch a girl who's dead.'
And he in turn said this to you:
'What is it that you'd have me do?
I know, kind mother, I won't eat
if I can't match your female heat.
90. But would you have me sing and sin
as my whistle goes both out and in?'
So since he balked to play that role,
you switched his jewel into a mole;
stuck in the muck of a marshy town
his pleasure can't go up or down.
And that is how you'd deal with me
if we got friendly, warm, and free."
When Ishtar heard his words so cruel,
she lost her cool and played the fool
loo by blasting off for daddy's distant star,
where she said: "Daddy, daddy, daddy, please,
Gilgamesh called me a tease."
"Gilgamesh said I sinned and lived
without faith in myself or others," she pouted.
Her father, Anu, said these exact words to Ishtar:
"Now, daughter, did you first insult him,
this Gilgamesh who then began to taunt you
with jibes about your inclinations?"
Ishtar shouted back at him-who-is-her-father:
110. "You! Now! Make him stop! Loose the
bull who could trample him at once.
Let the bull spill his blood.
And you'd better do this now or I'll
wreak havoc of my own right down to Hell.
I'll loose the goddamn devil. I'll rain corpses.
I'll make zombies eat infants and there will be
more dead souls than living ones!".
Her father, Anu, said these exact words to Ishtar:
"But if I do what you seem now to want,
120. there would be long years of drought
and sorrow. Have you stored enough
reserve to feed the people who
deserve your close protection?"
And she said:
"Yes, I have reserved a plan for those I love. Now do as I demand
and punish all who insult me."
Then her father, Anu, heard Ishtar's cry
and Ishtar forced her will.
130. Anu set loose a bull from out of the sky and,
at the bull's proclamation, there cracks the
earth to swallow up nine dozen citizens of Uruk!
An earthquake fixed a grave for nine dozen citizens of Uruk.
Two or three or four hundred victims,
maybe more than that, fell into Hell.
And when the quake returned for a third time,
it was near to Enkidu,
he who fell upon the Abyss so wide and grim.
Enkidu collapsed near the earth-shaking bull.
140. Then he leaped to grab the bull by his long horns
even with spit upon his face from out the savage mouth, .
even with the stench of bowels near his nose.
Then Enkidu said to Gilgamesh:
"Brother, you and I are now hailed as one.
How could we defeat a god?
Brother, I see great challenge here, but can we dare defy such force?
Let's kill it if we can right now.
Be unrelenting and hope that god
gives us the strength.
150. We must be cold and strong
to cut our enemy's weak neck."
Enkidu surrounds the bull, pursuing Heaven's beast
and finally catches him.
So Gilgamesh, like a bull dancer,
svelte and mighty then,
plunged his sword into the throat held fast by Enkidu.
They butchered and bled the bull and then cut out its heart
to offer as sacrifice before Shamash.
Then Gilgamesh and Enkidu retreated
160. from the altar itself and stood afar
in deep respect as they did pray.
At last the two sat down, bound by war, bound by worship.
Ishtar appeared upon Uruk's walls
looking like a wailing widow.
She shrieked this curse aloud:
"Damn Gilgamesh, who injured me,
by slaughtering a divine bull."
Enkidu reacted to these words of Ishtar quick
by hurling at her head a hunk of meat from the bull's thigh.
170. And from afar he shouted up to her:
"This bloody mess of a plain bull would
be about what I could make of you
if you came near. I'd tie
your hands with these rope-like intestines."
Ishtar signaled then for her attendants:
coiffured bishops, cantors, and girls
whose charms keep worshippers coming.
Then atop the great wall above the city high
standing by the severed part of its right thigh,
180. she had them shriek laments for the bull who'd died.
So to complete this ritual and adorn his throne
Gilgamesh summoned artisans of all kinds.
Some measured the diameter of the bull's horns,
each containing thirty pounds of lapis lazuli.
Together those horns could hollow hold
half a dozen quarts of oil.
And that is what Gilgamesh brought as potion
to the altar of Lugalbanda, his special protector.
He carried the horns and enshrined them in a palace
190. of honor where his clan held rites.
Then Enkidu and Gilgamesh absolved their
bloody hands in the forgiving river,
the deep, eternal Euphrates that does not change.
At last relieved of such a stain, the friends renew
their vows with a brief embrace
before riding through Ur-uk's crowded streets
amid acclaim. There Gilgamesh stops to
give this speech to gathered girls:
"What man is most impressive now?
200. Who is finest, firmest, and most fair?
Isn't Gilgamesh that man above men
and isn't Enkidu the strongest of all?"
Then they party loudly throughout the day
so that, come night, they drop down dead in sleep.
But Enkidu is resurrected quickly
to relieve his soul of fright
and sadly he asks Gilgamesh in tears:
"Oh brother, why would I dream that gods sat round to set my fate?"

Column 1

Enkidu confessed this dream to Gilgamesh:
"The gods all gathered round last night
and Anu told Enlil that one of us should die
because of what we've done against their names.
Though Shamash intervened for us,
saying we had slain Humbaba and the bull
with his consent, the others sought revenge."
Then Enkidu fell ill and soon lost his full strength.
Saying words like these as his friend lay dying,
10. Gilgamesh intoned:
"Why should you be so condemned and why should
I go right on living?
Will my own sad eyes soon never look on you again?
Shall I descend to depths beneath
this earth to visit worlds reserved
for those who've died?"
Enkidu glanced up, addressing the entryway
on which his hand was morbidly crushed:
"Door of all forests, that confuses wind and rain,
20. deaf, dumb, and blind portal;
I admired your firm texture
before I first saw the mighty trees
aloft that gave force to you.
There is nothing on earth that could replace
your splendor or your worth.
At two hundred feet in height, at forty feet around are
your mighty posts, your priceless hinge
cut and crafted in Nippur's holy ground.
if I had guessed that you'd become this,
30. I would have shattered you to pieces
with my ax and have been more careful not
to wound my hand so badly on your frame."

Column 2

Missing.

Column 3

Then cursing the hunter whom he first met
and the girl whom he first loved, Enkidu raged:
"Slash him. Cut half his face.
Raise up floods beneath his feet
so that no animal is safe."
And at his sacred, former lover Enkidu did swear:
"Get up, witch, and hear your fortune
40. guaranteed now and forever.
I damn you off and damn you down.
I'd break your teeth with stones and let
your mouth hang open
until you'd say thanks to your killer
who would favor you by letting you
lie homeless on an open road
in some foul ditch.
May all and any who can hurt you now
often cross the paths you take.
50. I hope you live in fright, unsure of hope
and starved always for the touch of love."
food and drink almost divine
so that you were taken for a god.
The fine lover, my thoughtless boy, invested you
with robes of gold, robes of blue
60. and, more important, gave your dear friend
the thought that he should do whatever need
be done and still more too.
Did your brother, Gilgamesh, give you as fine a bed
as any on earth or any there in heaven?
Did he promote the likes of you to fame
unrivaled, so that rulers kneel to kiss
the ground you walk upon?
He will also show the Uruk people how to mourn for you.
An entire people will cry upon your death
70. and he will go in tears
ignoring the dirt and dust and mud
that stain his hands and hair.
So in despair will his mind be
as off he roams in lonely woods wearing rags."
Shamash responded from on high:
"The fine lover, my Enkidu, is cursed by you
who gave you bread and meat and stew,
the same who offered you some wine,
When Enkidu heard these sad words
he was speechless and in his heart
he knew that Shamash spoke the truth.
His anger fled and Enkidu resolved
to die in peace.

Column 4

80. With these last words the dying Enkidu did pray
and say to his beloved companion:
"In dreams last night
the heavens and the earth poured
out great groans while I alone
stood facing devastation. Some fierce
and threatening creature flew down at me
and pushed me with its talons toward
the horror-filled house of death
wherein lrkalla, queen of shades,
90. stands in command.
There is darkness which lets no person
again see light of day.
There is a road leading away from
bright and lively life.
There dwell those who eat dry dust
and have no cooling water to quench their awful thirst.
As I stood there I saw all those who've died
and even kings among those darkened souls
have none of their remote and former glory.
100. All earthly greatness was forfeit
and I entered then into the house of death.
Others who have been there long
did rise to welcome me."
Hearing this, great Gilgamesh said to his handsome mother:
"My friend, dear Enkidu, has seen his passing now
and he lies dying here upon a sad and lonely cot.
Each day he weakens more and wonders how much more
life may yet belong to his hands and eyes and tongue."
Then Enkidu resumed his last remarks and said:
110. "Oh Gilgamesh, some destiny has robbed me
of the honor fixed for those who die in battle.
I lie now in slow disgrace, withering day by day,
deprived as I am of the peace that comes to one
who dies suddenly in a swift clash of arms."

Column 1

Then once again at break of day
did Gilgamesh conclude the silent night
by being first to raise his hands and voice
and he said:
"Oh Enkidu, whose own mother's grace
was every bit as sweet as any deer's
and whose father
raced just as swift and stood as strong
as any horse that ever ran,
10. accept all natural customs
within the limitless confines of the wild
where you were raised by those with
tails, by those with hooves, by
those with fur and whiskers.
All the roads in and out of your great forest
now lie silent, but for the sobbing done by your wild friends.
The aged men and women of Uruk mourn today
and raise their withered palms in prayer
as we carry you by, toward Mount Kur.
20. Grottos weep for you and valleys too
and so do those great trees
upon the shore where you loved to run.
And also crying now are
large bears, little dogs, baby cubs
of lions and of tigers, and even
the hyena now has ceased its laugh.
Wild bull and the rapidest of deer
All, all, all sigh,
All, all, all cry for you.
30. Ulay's lovely riverbanks are swollen on this day
where you did walk as boys alone can do
upon the banks of rivers that mother
their young thoughts about life and death.
Yes, that great brown god, the river Ulay,
today mourns for you as does the
true Euphrates eternal and silent.
Uruk's rugged men mourn for you
who killed that sacrificial bull.
They all weep tears today
40. and those in Eridu, who loved your fame,
and say your name aloud,
they too weep tears today
and all in days to come, even those who knew
you not, all may weep tears someday
for your sad lot.
Your favorite aunt, your blessed servant,
your first girlfriend,
your inspiration, your companion, your darling
dear and she you feared to be alone with,
50. all women who ever sat and ate with you,
all men you ever helped with food or drink,
every one and all,
lovers fast and strangers slow.
Those you touched or who touched you
and those who never knew just how you felt.
All and every burst into tears
today because they heard that
you were suddenly dead."

Column 2

"I'll cry now, citizens of Uruk, and you
60. will finally hear what no one else
has ever had the nerve to say in sorrow.
I was family and friend to Enkidu and I shall
fill the woodlands where we stalked with loud, sad sobs today.
I cry now, Enkidu, like some crazed woman. I howl.
I screech for you because you were the ax upon my belt
and the bow in my weak hand; the sword within my sheath,
the shield that covered me in battle; my happiest robe,
the finest clothes I ever wore,
the ones that made me look best in the eyes of the world.
70. That is what you were; that is what you'll always be
What devil came to take you off from me?
Brother, you chased down the strongest mule,
the swiftest horse on mountains high,
the quickest panthers in the flatlands.
And they in turn will weep for you.
Birds in the air cry aloud.
Fish in the lake gather together near the shore.
What else heeds this sorrow?
The leaves of the trees and the paths you loved
80. in the forest grow dark.
Night itself murmurs and so too does the day.
All the eyes of the city that once saw your kind face begin to weep.
Why? Because you were my brother and you died.
When we met and fought and loved,
we went up on mountains high to where we dared to capture
god's own strength in one great beast and then to cut its throat,
thus humbling Humbaba, green god of woodlands steep.
Now there is a sleep-like spell on you, and you
are dark as well as deaf."
90. Enkidu can move no more.
Enkidu can lift his head no more.
"Now there is a sound throughout the land
that can mean only one thing.
I hear the voice of grief and I know that you have been taken
somewhere by death.
Weep. Let the roads we walked together flood themselves
with tears.
Let the beasts we hunted cry out for this:
the lion and the leopard, the tiger and the panther.
Let their strength be put into their tears.
100. Let the cloud-like mountain where you killed
the guardian of woodland treasures
place grief upon its sky-blue top.
Let the river which soothed our feet overflow its banks
as tears do that swell and rush across my dusty cheeks.
Let the clouds and stars race swiftly with you into death.
Let the rain that makes us dream
tell the story of your life tonight.
Who mourns for you now, Brother?
Everyone who knew you does.
110. The harvesters and the farmers who used to bring you grain
are standing alone in their fields.
The servants who worked in your house
today whispered your name in empty rooms.
The lover who kissed every part of you
touches her chilled lips with scented fingers.
The women of the palace sit
and stare at the queen of the city.
She sobs and sobs and sobs.
The men with whom you played so bold
120. speak fondly of your name.
Thus they deal with this misfortune.
But what do I do? I only know that a cruel fate robbed me
of my dearest friend too soon.
What state of being holds you now? Are you lost forever?
Do you hear my song?"
"I placed my hand upon your quiet heart."
One brother covered the set face of another
with a bride-white veil.
"I flew above you then as if I were an eagle."
130. Then, like some great cat whose darling young have sadly died,
Gilgamesh slides back and forth fixed mindlessly on grief.
He commands many men to erect statues of honor, saying:
"Make his chest a noble blue and on his honored body place a jewel
as will allow all viewers then to see how great he was,
how great he'll always be."
Next day, Gilgamesh rose from a restless sleep.

Column 3

Then Gilgamesh continued with his bird-like words:
"On a pedestal I will honor your corpse
by setting you
140. above all earthly princes who will celebrate you
when people from all distant lands
both rich and poor in spirit
acclaim your memory.
And when you are gone,
never again to wear good clothes or care for food,
I'll still remember how you dressed and how you ate.
" When day did break again next morn,
Gilgamesh stripped off the lion's cloak and
rose to say this prayer:
150. "Your funeral is a precious
gesture I made to hide my own guilt."
Goodbye, dear brother

Column 4

Missing.

Column 5

Still grieving reverently
160. after he arose next day, Gilgamesh imagined the Annunaki
who decide the fate of
those who go to the underworld.
After learning how to pause his heart,
Gilgamesh created just the same image
in the face of a river.
At break of day,
on the sacred table made of special wood,
the grieving king placed a consecrated bowl of blue
filled with butter and with honey too
170. and this he offered up in solemn prayer
to Shamash, lord god.
Goodbye, dear brother
...
United Beleriand
30-05-2007, 12:51
...

Column 1

Then Gilgamesh wept some more
for his dead friend. He wandered
over barren hills, mumbling to his own spirit:
"Will you too die as Enkidu did?
Will grief become your food? Will we both
fear the lonely hills, so vacant?
I now race from place to place,
dissatisfied with wherever I am and
turn my step toward Utnapishtim,
10. godchild of Ubaratutu,
who lives a pious life in fair Dilmun
where the morning sun arises as it
does in paradises lost and won.
As if in sleep I come upon the mountain door at midnight
where I face wild-eyed lions and I am afraid.
Then to Sin, the god of mighty light,
I raise my solemn chant to beg:
'Save me, please, my god."'
Despite respite
20. he could not sleep or dream that night.
Instead he wandered through the woods
so like a savage beast just then
did he bring death again and again
upon the lions' heads
with an ax he drew
from off his belt.

Column 2

When he finally reached the base of
Mt. Mashu, Gilgamesh began to
climb the double cliff
30. that guides the rising and setting of Shamash.
Now these identical towers touch
the distant, distant sky,
and far below, their breasts descend toward Hell.
Those who guard the gate are
poison scorpions
who terrorize all, whose spells bring death.
And then resplendent power
thrives all across the town
where I was born
40. and rises farther still to
mountain tops.
At dawn and dark they shield Shamash.
And when he sensed them there,
Gilgamesh could not dare to look
upon their threat;
but held his glance away,
suspended fear,
and then approached in dread.
One among the guardians there
50. said this to his wife:
"The one who comes toward us
is partly divine, my dear."
And then the same one said
to the god-like part of Gilgamesh:
"Eternal heart, why make
this long, long trip
trying to come to us
through travail? Speak now."

Column 3

Gilgamesh said: "I come by here
60. to visit my elder, my Utnapishtim,
the epitome of both life everlasting and
death that is eternal."
The poison scorpion guardian said:
"No mortal man has ever
come to know what you seek
here. Not one of all your kind
has come so far, the distance
you would fall if you fell
all day and all night into the pit
70. and through great darkness
where there is no light
without Shamash who raises
and lowers the sun;
to where I let no one go,
to where I forbid anyone to enter."

Column 4

Heartache pain abounds
with ice or fire all around.
The scorpion one,
I do not know whether a man or a woman,
80. said then:
"Gilgamesh, I command you
to proceed
to highest peaks
over hills toward heaven.
Godspeed!
With all permissions given here, I approve your venture."
So Gilgamesh set out then over
that sacred, sacred path within the mountains of Mashu,
near that incarnate ray of sunshine
90. precious to Shamash.
Oh dark, dark, dark, dark.
Oh the night, unholy and blind,
that wrapped him as soon as he stepped
forth upon that path.

Column 5

DARKNESS
Beneath a moonless, starless sky,
Gilgamesh was frozen and unseeing
by time before midnight;
by midnight's hollow eye
100. he was unseen and frozen.
At 1 a.m. he tripped and fell
blinded and frozen.
At 2 a.m. he staggered on
blinded and frozen.
At 3 a.m. he faltered not
blinded and frozen.
By 4 a.m. his second wind warmed him who still was
blinded and frozen.
And at your final dawn,
110. son of man, you will see only
a heap of broken images in an ascending
light that gives you sight you may not want,
for you will then behold all precious goods
and gardens sweet as home to you, as exile,
boughs of blue, oh unforgotten gem,
as true as any other memory from any other previous life.

Column 6

Then along the path
Gilgamesh traveled fast
and came at length to
120. shorelines fresh with dew.
And there he met a maiden,
one who knows the secrets of the sea.

Column 1

This gentle girl is called Siduri
and she sits by the sea
where she sways from side to side.
She made the water pale; she crafted the first gold bowl
while peeking at the sun
through a slit across her face veil.
King Gilgamesh approached the girl's small cottage by the sea
dressed as a mountain man,
a meat-eater,
10. with an aching heart
and the stare of one setting out upon some
arduous, horrid trek.
The girl who gives her men lifesaving drinks
said to herself, "Beware of the one
coming now. He walks as if he'd kill."
And so Siduri locked the door,
put stones in place, lay on the floor.
When Gilgamesh heard sounds inside
he yelled at her. "Why do you hide?
20. Shall I have to break through this door?"
The girl whose drinks refresh the soul
then said these words to Gilgamesh:
"Is there a simple reason, sir, why you're so sad
or why your face is drawn and thin?
Has chance worn out your youth or did some
wicked sorrow consume you like food?
You look like one setting out on some arduous, horrid trek,
like one exposed to extremes of hot and cold,
like one who searches everywhere for grace."
30. He responded then to her who gives her men
lifesaving drinks:
"Girl, there is no simple reason why I'm so sad
or why my face is drawn and thin.
Chance alone did not wear out my youth. Some
wicked sorrow consumes me like food.
But I do look like one setting out on some
arduous, horrid trek, like one exposed
to extreme hot or cold,
like one who searches everywhere
40. for the breath of life
because my brother, my only true friend, met death;
he who raced wild horses there,
who caught orange tigers here.
This was Enkidu, my soul's good half,
who raced wild horses there,
who caught orange tigers here;
who did all things while he conquered mountains
and divine bulls that race
across the sky like clouds;
50. who gave Humbaba, the woodland god,
reason to weep when he stole through
the wooded path to slaughter lions."

Column 2

Gilgamesh continued:
"I greatly loved my friend who was always there for me.
I loved Enkidu who was always there for me.
What awaits us all caught him first
and I did thirst for one whole week to
see him once again in splendor until his body decomposed.
Then I wept for my future death
60. and I fled home for mountaintops to breathe
when my friend's death choked off my wind.
On mountaintops I roamed content to breathe
again when my friend's death choked off my wind.
Walking. Walking. Walking over hills.
Could I sit down to rest?
Could I stop crying then
when my best friend had died
as I will someday do?"
Then Gilgamesh said to the fair girl
70. whose saving drinks gave life to men:
"Tell me, girl, how to get to Utnapishtim.
Where do I look for signs? Show me directions. Help,
Please let me have safe passage over seas.
Give me advice to guide me on my way."
She said to him in swift reply:
"No man has ever gone that way
and lived to say he crossed the sea.
Shamash only ventures there,
only Shamash would dare
80. to stare into the sun.
Pain joins the voyager soon,
and soon the traveler grows weary
where death surrounds the path
on every side with danger."

Column 3

The girl whose drinks refresh the soul
then said these words to Gilgamesh:
"Remember always, mighty king,
that gods decreed the fates of all
many years ago. They alone are let
90. to be eternal, while we frail humans die
as you yourself must someday do.
What is best for us to do
is now to sing and dance.
Relish warm food and cool drinks.
Cherish children to whom your love gives life.
Bathe easily in sweet, refreshing waters.
Play joyfully with your chosen wife."
"It is the will of the gods for you to smile
on simple pleasure in the leisure time of your short days."
100. "And what, after all, my fellow man,
would you do when you got to that
far side where Urshanabi dwells
among the hills of Utnapishtim?
He knows only the dead weight of what is dead
and he is one who plays with deadly snakes.
Would you put your lips near his?
if he befriends you then, go on.
But if he walks away, return to me."
With that in mind
110. Gilgamesh took up his chore,
unsheathed his sword, slipped toward the shore
and there joined one who rows the seas of death.
Gilgamesh sliced through the underbrush as an arrow goes through air
while cracking the stones of the sacred columns.
And Urshanabi barely saw the arrow's glint
and too late heard the ax's thud.
And so surprised was he that
there was never any chance to
hide or to deny the daring man
120. at least a chance at
some safe passage.
Gilgamesh traveled on to where he next
found the ferryman of Utnapishtim. This man,
Urshanabi, said to Gilgamesh:
"Your face seems tense; your eyes do not glance well
and Hell itself is part of how you look.
Grief hangs from your shoulders.
You look like one who's been without a home, without a bed
or roof for a long time, wandering the wilds on some random search."
130. Gilgamesh replied to the ferryman:
"Yes sir, it's true my face is tense
and that my eyes seem harsh.
My looks are now so hellish,
for I wear my grief as ill as any other.
I'm not this way as some refugee
without a bed or roof for a long time,
and I don't wander the wilds randomly.
I grieve for Enkidu, my fair companion and true friend,
who chased the strongest mule, the swiftest horse
140. on mountain high, the quickest panther of the flatland.
Together we did all things, climbing sky-high peaks,
stealing divine cattle, humbling the gods, killing Humbaba
and the precious lions, guardians of the sky.
All this I did with my best friend who now is dead.
Mortality reached him first and I am left this week
to weep and wail for his shriveling corpse which scares me.
I roam aloft and alone now, by death enthralled,
and think of nothing but my dear friend.
I roam the lonely path with death upon my mind
150. and think of nothing but my dear friend.
Over many seas and across many mountains I roam.
I can't stop pacing. I can't stop crying.
My friend has died and half my heart is torn from me.
Won't I soon be like him, stone-cold and dead,
for all the days to come?"
Urshanabi replied as he had done before:
"Your face seems tense; your eyes do not glance well
and Hell itself is part of how you look.
Grief hangs from your shoulders.
You look like one who's been without a home, without a bed
160. or roof for a long time, wandering the wilds on some random search."
And Gilgamesh said to him then in swift reply:
"Of course my face seems tense and my eyes seem harsh.
Of course I'm worn out weeping. Why should I not cry?
I've come to ask directions to Utnapishtim, who lives so
free beyond death's deep, deep lake. Where can he be?
Tell me how to venture there where I may learn his secrets."
Finally, Urshanabi uttered these last words to Gilgamesh:
"You yourself have hurt this effort most, sir,
by blasphemy and sacrilege,
170. by breaking idols and by holding the untouchably sacred stones.
You broke stone images!
So now, Mr. Gilgamesh, raise high your ax."
Thus chastised, Gilgamesh
raised high his ax, unsheathed his sword,
did penance too as he chopped down many trees;
prepared them then, and then brought them
to Urshanabi.
After this, they cast off together,
with push and pull they launched the skiff
180. upon the waving sea.
They leaped quick, in three short days
covering a span that any other would
traverse only after months of passage
and soon they sailed on to Death's own sea.

Column 4

Still directing the king's new efforts, Urshanabi called:
"Give me another pull, Gilgamesh, upon the mighty oar
and then another. Give ten times twenty
and then give twenty times ten pulls upon the
mighty oars; then ten more twice; then twice
190. more ten and then confuse the number of
the pulls you put upon the oar
by losing count aloud and starting over."
Halfway through all that pulling,
Gilgamesh had worn the oars to bits
and torn his shirt from off his back
to raise a helping sail upon the mast.
Then Utnapishtim glared down from stars and clouds
and mused aloud, as if to coach the world:
"How could any human dare to break the idols
200. or steer the craft that gods and goddesses use?

This stranger is not fit to tie the shoes of servants.
I do see, but I am blind.
I do know, but cannot understand
how he behaves like
the beasts of here and there."




Column 5

Gilgamesh spoke many words to Utnapishtim
and told of strife-in-life and
battles rare. He hailed his friend Enkidu,
acclaimed their pride and grieved the
210. death that saddened his great heart.
Gilgamesh raised his prayer to the remote Utnapishtim:
"oh myth-filled god,
I have traveled many roads,
crossed many rivers and mountains.
I never rested. I never slept. Grief consumed me.
My clothing was ragged by the time I met
the girl who would help me.
I killed all manner of animal in order
to eat and clothe myself.
220. When I was rejected, I stooped to squalor.
Cursed I went,
being unholy."
Utnapishtim replied:
"Why cry over your fate and nature?
Chance fathered you. Your conception was
an accidental combination
of the divine and mortal.
I do not presume to know how to help
the likes of you."

Column 6

230. Utnapishtim continued:
"No man has ever seen Death.
No one ever heard Death's voice
but Death is real and Death is loud.
How many times must a home be restored
or a contract revised and approved?
How many times must two brothers agree
not to dispute what is theirs?
How many wars and how many floods must there be
with plague and exile in their wake?
240. Shamash is the one who can say.
But there is no one else who can
see what Shamash only can see within the sun.
Behold the cold, cold corpse from a distance,
and then regard the body of one who sleeps.
There seems no difference. How can we say
which is good and which is bad?
And it is also like that with other things as well.
Somewhere above us, where the goddess Mammetum decides
all things,
Mother Chance sits with the Anunnaki
250. and there she settles all decrees of fable and of fortune.
There they issue lengths of lives;
then they issue times of death.
But the last, last matter
is always veiled from human beings.
The length of lives can only be guessed."
Thus spoke Utnapishtim.

Column 1

To the most distant and removed of semi-gods, to Utnapishtim,
Gilgamesh said: "When I regard you now, my god-like man,
it's like seeing my own face on calm water
where I dare to study myself.
Like me, you are first of all a fighter who prefers to war-no-more. How could one like you, so human, all-too-human, ascend to be at one with other gods?"
10. Utnapishtim said to him in swift reply:
"Only one as bold as you would dare expect
such knowledge. But I shall tell you what
no person has ever been told.
High up the constant Euphrates
there rests a place you call Shuruppak
where gods and goddesses recline.
Then came the flood, sent by gods' intent.
Mama, Anu, and Enlil were at Shuruppak.
So too was their coachman, Ninurta,
20. and Ennugi, the beastiarilis,
and one who watches over precious infants,
the ever vigilant Ea.
And Ea refrained their chant to the higli-grown reeds
upon the shore, giving this advice to me:
'Arise! Arise! Oh wall-like reeds.
Arise and hear my words:
Citizen of Shurtippak, child of Ubaratutu,
abandon your home and build a boat.
Reject the corpse-like stench of wealth.
Choose to live and choose to love;
30. choose to rise above and give back
what you yourself were given.
Be moderate as you flee for survival
in a boat that has no place for riches.
Take the seed of all you need aboard
with you and carefully weigh anchor
after securing a roof that will let in no water.'
"Then I said back in reverent prayer:
'I understand, great Ea.
I shall do just as you say to honor god,
40. but for myself
I'll have to find a reason to give the people.'
"Then Ea voiced a fair reply:
'Tell those who'll need to know
that Enlil hates you.
Say: "I must flee the city now
and go by sea to where Enlil waits to take my life.
I will descend to the brink of Hell
to be with Ea, god,
who will send riches to you like the rain:
50. all manner of birds;
birds ... bonds ... burds...
and the rarest of rare fish.
The land will fill with crops full grown at break of day.
Ea will begin to shower
gifts of life upon you all"."'

Column 2

Then Utnapishtim continued, saying words like these:
"By week's end I engineered designs
for an acre's worth of floor upon the ark we built
so that its walls rose straight toward heaven;
60. with decks all round did I design its space;
120 cubits measured its deck.
With division of six and of seven
I patterned its squares and stairs;
left space for portals too,
secured its beams and stockpiled
all that ever could be used.
Pitch for the hull I poured into the kiln
and ordered three full volumes of oil
to start with and two times three more yet.
For what is security?
70. Each day I sacrificed the holy bulls
and chosen sheep for the people
and pushed the laborers to great fatigue
and thirst, allayed alone by wine
which they drank as if it were water running
from barrels set up for holding cheer
in preparation for a New Year's party they expected.
I set up an ointment box
and cleaned my fingers with its cream.
"After one week, the ark was done,
80. though launching was more work than fun
since hull boards caught and snapped
until the water burst most of its great ton.
I supplied the craft with all I owned
of silver, gold, and seed.
My clan brought on the food they'd eat
and all the things we thought we'd need.
At last, it was my turn just then
to shepherd beasts and birds and
babies wet and loud.
90. It was Shamash who ordained the time, saying:
'Prepare the way for your whole boat
and set to sail when the storm
begins to threaten you.'
"The Anunnaki too then cried for them.
The gods themselves, finally suffering, sat up
and let their first tears flow down
cheeks and over lips pressed closed.

Column 3

"For the whole next week
the sky screamed and storms wrecked the earth
100. and finally broke the war
which groaned as one in labor's throes.
Even Ishtar then bemoaned the
fates of her sad people.
Ocean silent.
Winds dead.
Flood ended.
Then I see a dawn so still;
all humans beaten to dirt
and earth itself like some vast roof.
110. I peeked through the portal into a morning sun
then turned, knelt and cried.
Tears flooded down my face.
"Then I searched high and low for the shoreline,
finally spotting an island near and dear.
Our boat stuck fast beside Mt. Nimush.
Mt. Nimush held the hull that could not sway
for one whole week.
"I released the watch-bird, to soar in search of land.
The bird came back within a day
exhausted, unrelieved from lack of rest.
120. I then released a swallow, to soar in search of land,
The bird came back within a day
exhausted, unrelieved from lack of rest.
I then released a raven, to soar in search of land.
The bird took flight above more shallow seas,
found food and found release and found no
need to fly on back to me.
"These birds I then released to carth's four corners
and offered sacrifice,
a small libation to the heights of many mountains,
130. from numbered chalices that I arranged.
Under these I spread the scents that gods favored
and when the gods smelled the sweet perfume of sacrifice,
they gathered in flight all above, like apparitions.

Column 4

"From distant heights with heavenly sights,
the female of all female gods descended then;
Aruru who aroused the wry thought
that Anu made for intercourse.
'Great gods from far and wide
keep always in my mind
140. this thought for intercourse,
tokened by the sacred blue medallion on my neck,
Let me recall with smiles
these days in days to come.
Gods of my shoreline, gods of my sky,
come round this food that I prepared for you;
but do not let Enlil enjoy this too,
since he's the one who drowned my relatives
without telling the gods what he set out to do.'
When Enlil saw the boat, he released
150. his calm reason and let in the lgigi, monsters of blood.
'What force dares defy my anger!?
How dare a man be still alive!?'
Then with these words Ninurta said to Enlil:
'Can any of us besides Ea, maker of words,
create such things as speech?'
Then with these words Ea himself said to Enlil:
'Sly god,
sky darkener,
and tough fighter,
160. how dare you drown so many little people
without consulting me?
Why not just kill the one who offended you,
drown only the sinner?
Keep hold of his lifecord; harness his destiny.
Rather than killing rains, set cats at people's throats.
Rather than killing rains, set starvation on dry, parched throats.
Rather than killing rains, set sickness on the minds and hearts
of people.
I was not the one who revealed our god-awful secrets.
Blame Utnapishtim, Mr. Know-it-all,
170. who sees everything,
who knows everything."
"Reflect on these stories, my Gilgamesh."
"Then Enlil swooped down around my boat;
he gently raised me from the slime,
placed my wife beside my kneeling form
and blessed us both at once with hands upon our bowed heads.
So was it ordained.
So we were ordained."
Earlier than that time, Utnapishtim was not divine.
180. Then with his wife he was deified
and sent to rule the place where rivers start.
"Gods sent me everywhere to rule the place where rivers start."
"As for you, Gilgamesh, which gods will be called on
to direct your path and future life?
Arise! Be alert! Stay up with stars for
seven long and sleepless nights!"
But even as he tried to stay awake,
fog-like sleep rolled over his eyes.
Then Utnapishtim said these words:
190. "Dear wife, behold the one who tries to pray
while fog-like sleep rolls over his eyes."
She said to him who rarely talks:
"Arouse him now and let him
leave unharmed. Permit that one
to go back home at last."

Column 5

Then Utnapishtim said these words:
"An upset soul can upset many gods.
Be kind with food and generous to him.
But keep a count of how he
200. sleeps and what he eats."
She was kind with food and gentle with the man
and she kept count of how he slept.
"One, two, three, abate,
he slept with death~the-fairy.
Four, five, six, abate,
he looked so cold and wary."
Then he returned from death to breath!
210. So Gilgamesh said to the One-who-rarely-spoke:
"Just as I slipped toward sleep,
you sent my dream."
And to him in reply, Utnapishtim said these words:
"One, two, three, alarie,
you slept with death-the-fairy.
Four, five, six, alarie,
you looked so cold and wary.
Then you arose from death to breath."
So Gilgamesh said to the One-who-rarely-speaks:
"Help me, Utnapishtim. Where is
home for one like me whose self
220. was robbed of life? My own
bed is where death sleeps and
I crack her spine on every line
where my foot falls."
Utnapishtim calls out to the sailor-god:
"Urshanabi, dear, you will never land
again easily or easily sail the seas
to shores where you no more will find safe harbor.
Sandy and disheveled hair does not become
the one you nearly drowned.
230. Shingles now spoil his hidden beauty.
Better find a place to clean him up.
Better race to pools of saltless water soon
so that by noon he'll shine again for all of us to see.
Tie up his curly hair with ribbon fair.
Place on his shoulders broad the happy robe
so that he may return to his native city easily in triumph.
Allow him to wear the sacred elder's cloak
and see that it is always kept as clean
as it can be."
The sailor-god brought Gilgamesh
240. to where they cleaned his wounds.
By noon he shone again for all to see.
He tied his curly hair with ribbon fair,
and placed upon his shoulder broad the happy robe
so he would return to Uruk easily in triumph
with a cloak unstained and unstainable.
Urshanabi and Gilgamesh launched the boat
over the breakers on the beach and
started to depart across the seas.

Column 4

To her distant husband, Utnapishtim's wife said:
250. "This Gilgamesh has labored much to come here.
Can you reward him for traveling back?"
At that very moment, Gilgamesh used paddles
to return his craft along the shore.
Then Utnapishtim called out to him:
"Gilgamesh! You labored much to come here.
How can I reward you for traveling back?
May I share a special secret, one
that the gods alone do know?
There is a plant that hides somewhere among the rocks
260. that thirsts and thrusts itself deep
in the earth, with thistles that sting.
That plant contains eternal life for you."
Immediately, Gilgamesh set out in search.
Weighed down carefully, he dove beneath
the cold, cold waters and saw the plant.
Although it stung him when he grabbed its leaf,
he held it fast as he then slipped off his weights
and soared back to the surface.
Then Gilgamesh said this to Urshanabi, the sailor-god:
270. "Here is the leaf that begins
all life worth having.
I am bound now for Uruk,
town-so-full-of-shepherds,
and there I'll dare to give
this plant to aged men as food
and they will call it life-giving.
I too intend to eat it
and to be made forever young."
After 10 miles they ate.
280. After 15 miles they set up camp
where Gilgamesh slipped into a pool;
but in the pool, a cruel snake slithered by
and stole the plant from Gilgamesh
who saw the snake grow young again,
as off it raced with the special, special plant.
Right there and then Gilgamesh began to weep
and, between sobs, said to the sailor-god who held his hand:
"Why do I bother working for nothing?
Who even notices what I do?
290. I don't value what I did
and now only the snake has won eternal life. in minutes, swift currents will lose forever
that special sign that god had left for me."
Then they set out again,
this time upon the land.
After 10 miles they stopped to eat.
After 30 miles they set up camp.
Next day they came to Uruk, full of shepherds.
300. Then Gilgamesh said this to the boatman:
"Rise up now, Urshanabi, and examine
Uruk's wall. Study the base, the brick,
the old design. is it permanent as can be?
Does it look like wisdom designed it?
The house of Ishtar in
Uruk is divided into three parts:
the town itself, the palm grove, and the prairie."

Tablet 12



"If only I'd have protected our instruments in the
safe home of the drum-maker;
If only I'd have given so precious a harp to the
craftsman's wife, she who shepherds such jewel-like children.
God, has your heart forgotten me?
Who shall descend to Hell and redeem the
drum from where it rests unused?
Who shall risk his life to retrieve
the precious gifts of Ishtar from death?"
10. And for this quest his friend alone did pledge.
So Gilgamesh said this to Enkidu:
"Descend, descend to Hell where life does end
but listen now to words you need to know.
Go slow to where death rules, my brother dear,
and then arise again above and over fear."
And, once more, Gilgamesh said this to Enkidu:
"Let all who would be saved today, take heed,
and listen to god's words in time of need.
When walking with the strong or with the dead,
20. do not wear clothes of purple or of red.
Shun make-up that presents a holy face
for they attack the phony and the base.
Leave here with me your knife and rock and club;
such weapons only add to their own strife.
Put down your bow, as you would leave a wife.
The souls of death will soil your hands and feet.
Go naked, filthy, tearful, when you meet.
Be quiet, mild, remote, and distant too
as those who will surround and follow you.
30. Greet no girl with kiss so kind upon her lips;
push none away from you with fingertips.
Hold no child's hand as you descend to Hell
and strike no boy who chooses there to dwell.
Around you, Enkidu, the lament of the dead
will whirl and scream,
for she alone, in that good place, is at home who,
having given birth to beauty,
has watched that beauty die.
No graceful robe any longer graces her naked self
40. and her kind breasts, once warm with milk,
have turned into bowls of cold stone."
But Enkidu refused to heed his friend
as he set out that day to then descend
to where the dead who-do-not-live do stay.
He wore bright clothes of celebrative red,
the sight of which offended all the dead.
His colored face made him seem fair and good
but spirits hate the flesh that would dare
remind us of the beauty they have lost.
50. He brought with him his club and rock and knife
and did cause strife with those whom he did mock.
There, too, is where he showed off;
where he went clothed among the naked,
where he wasted food beside the starving,
where he danced beside the grief-stricken.
He kissed a happy girl.
He struck a good woman.
He enjoyed his fatherhood.
He fought with his son.
60. Around him, the lament for the dead arose;
for she alone, in that sad place, is at home who,
having given birth to beauty,
has watched that beauty die.
No graceful robe any longer graces her naked self
and her kind breasts, once warm with milk,
have turned into bowls of cold stone.
She never even dreamed once of letting him return
to life. Namtar, the decision-maker,
would not help Enkidu. Nor would illness
70. help. Hell became his home.
Nergal, chief-enforcer, would not help.
Dirges and laments rose all around.
Not even the soldier's death-in-battle,
with all its false and phony honor,
helped Enkidu. Death just swallowed him, unrecognized.
So the great son of Ninsun, proud Gilgamesh,
cried for his beloved friend
and went to the temple of Enlil,
the savage god of soldiers,
80. to say: "My god, when death
called for me, my best friend went
in my place and he is now no longer living."
But the savage god of soldiers, Enlil, was mute.
So Gilgamesh turned next to one who flies alone,
and to the moon he said: "My god, when death
called for me, my best friend went
in my place and he is now no longer living."
But the moon, who flies alone, was also mute;
so he went next to Ea, whose waters fill
90. the desert oasis even when no rain falls.
"My god," he cried, "when death
called for me, my best friend went
in my place and he is now no longer living."
And Ea, whose waters keep us alive as we journey over desert sands,
said this to Nergal, great soldier in arms.
"Go now, mighty follower; free Enkidu to speak once to kin
and show this Gilgamesh how to descend halfway
to Hell through the bowels of earth."
And Nergal, accustomed to absurd orders,
100. obeyed as soldiers do.
He freed Enkidu to speak once to kin
and showed Gilgamesh how to descend halfway
to Hell through the bowels of earth.
Enkidu's shadow rose slowly toward the living
and the brothers, tearful and weak,
tried to hug, tried to speak,
tried and failed to do anything but sob.
"Speak to me please, dear brother,"
whispered Gilgamesh.
110. "Tell me of death and where you are."
"Not willingly do I speak of death,"
said Enkidu in slow reply.
"But if you wish to sit for a brief
time, I will describe where I do stay."
"Yes," his brother said in early grief.
"All my skin and all my bones are dead now.
All my skin and all my bones are now dead.
"Oh no," cried Gilgamesh without relief.
"Oh no," sobbed one enclosed by grief.
120. "Did you see there a man who never fathered any child?"
"I saw there a no-man who died."
"Did you see there a man whose one son died?"
"I saw him sobbing all alone in open fields."
"Did you see there a man with two grown sons?"
"I did indeed and he smiles all day long."
"Did you see there a man with three of his own boys?"
"I did, I did; and his heart's full of joys."
"Did you there see a king with four full kids?"
"I did see one whose pleasure is supreme."
130. "Did you see there anyone with five children?"
"oh yes, they go about with laughs and shouts."
"And could you find a man with six or seven boys?"
"You could and they are treated as the gods."
"Have you seen one who died too soon?"
"Oh yes; that one sips water fair and rests each night upon a couch."
"Have you seen one who died in War?"
"Oh yes; his aged father weeps and his young widow visits graves."
"Have you seen one buried poor, with other homeless nomads?"
140. "Oh yes; that one knows rest that is not sure,
far from the proper place."
"Have you seen a brother crying among relatives
who chose to ignore his prayers?"
"Oh yes; he brings bread to the hungry from
the dumps of those who feed their dogs
with food they keep from people
and he eats trash that no other man would want."
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 12:52
On the contary mankinds quest for God in all of it's forms interests me a great deal(I'm a tad sad that way) please continue. From what you say I'm thinking either the Bahai faith or perhaps that very stange thing called Eckankar?

No, it's not officially a relgion, and it abhors being called one. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sant_Mat) is the Wiki page.
It is about the continual cycle of Karma, and that only by completely purging onself of Karma (which would be impossible without someone to take it, hence the Master) is the only way to leave "creation" and enter...um, for lack of better word the "afterlife", athough it's a little different from that.
It believes that people have two things: their soul, and their mind. Their mind is impure, and collects Karma, and all that. According to it we must totally seperate ourselvs from our mind to acsend.
United Beleriand
30-05-2007, 12:54
*sigh* The Torrah, The Talmund, The Mishna.The Talmud includes the Mishnah. And that still is no multitude. It's all just recycled Torah material.
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 12:57
Wouldn't it extend to speaking their own views on the subject, as well as teaching it, though.

In a kind of "in my opinion, this is a fact - but you can make your minds up" way.

No. Religion is way-too touchy. They could analize it, but opinions, no. If they want to take it as a book to run-their-life, they can visit Church. School is for Schooling, Church is for Church. NO mixing.
Marramopia
30-05-2007, 12:58
I agree that the bible should be compulsory reading, for anyone who chooses to study religious texts. The rest of us, who are either disinterested or lazy should be allowed not to read it as it will simply cause boredom and actually won't be read.
NERVUN
30-05-2007, 12:59
Yep. Try Gilgamesh.
Or the short version:
PICARD
Gilgamesh. Was a king. At Uruk.
He tormented his subjects. He
drove them to anger. They cried
out -- "Give our king a companion.
Spare us his madness."
PICARD
(continuing)
Enkidu. A wildman. Of the
forest. Entered the city. They
fought in the temple. They fought
in the street. Gilgamesh defeated
Enkidu. They became friends.
(beat)
Gilgamesh and Enkidu. At Uruk.
PICARD
(quiet)
The new friends went into the
desert, where the Great Bull of
Heaven was killing men by the
hundreds. Enkidu caught it by
the tail, Gilgamesh struck it with
his sword.
PICARD
They were victorious. But Enkidu
fell to the ground. Struck down
by the gods...
PICARD
(continuing; a whisper)
And Gilgamesh wept bitter tears,
saying, "He who was my companion
through adventure and hardships,
is gone forever... "

Sorry, my Western Civ Professor used the episode after we had read Gilgamesh. ;)
Peepelonia
30-05-2007, 13:01
The Talmud includes the Mishnah. And that still is no multitude. It's all just recycled Torah material.

Hold on there fella!

So I say this:

'Ummm I always though that both Christianity and Islam, stemmed ultimatly from Judaisim, and so I would have said that they are around due to the multitude of Jewish holy scripture.'

The important bit being that ultimatly both Christianity and Islam stem from Judaism, and you choose to focus on what basicly is a misuse of a one single word?

Heh okay I'll put my hands up, say I was wrong, and strike the word multitude from the paragraph. Does that suit you better?
Bodies Without Organs
30-05-2007, 13:01
It really should, or at least part of it (it's kinda long-winded). Why? Well, for one thing it glimses into human-kind's psychology and motivations, and accomplished quite a bit (good and bad). I mean, think about it.

I would value a book which taught coherent argument above one concerned with psychology and motivations...
Compulsive Depression
30-05-2007, 13:03
NO mixing.

Not even in "Home Economics"? Sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Yootopia
30-05-2007, 13:37
Not even in "Home Economics"? Sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Ther-dum-tish.
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 13:40
Not even in "Home Economics"? Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

You don't see the teachers telling kids how their family should spend their moeny, do you?
Cranhadan Selective
30-05-2007, 13:41
No it shouldn't.

Agreed.
Cranhadan Selective
30-05-2007, 13:42
You don't see the teachers telling kids how their family should spend their moeny, do you?

Apart from when they shout at you to get some stationary and proper school uniform.
Cranhadan Selective
30-05-2007, 13:44
I agree that the bible should be compulsory reading, for anyone who chooses to study religious texts. The rest of us, who are either disinterested or lazy should be allowed not to read it as it will simply cause boredom and actually won't be read.

That be a big reason for me not to study religous texts , The bible is very boring.
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 13:46
That be a big reason for me not to study religous texts , The bible is very boring.

So is history (although it's my favorite subject).
The Parkus Empire
30-05-2007, 13:47
Apart from when they shout at you to get some stationary and proper school uniform.

Yeah. Although 9/10 schools I see don't have uniforms, and stationary doesn't really cost Jack Bush.
UpwardThrust
30-05-2007, 13:51
If Mythology is forced upon them, shouldn't the Bible be?

It was not in my school
Compulsive Depression
30-05-2007, 13:55
You don't see the teachers telling kids how their family should spend their moeny, do you?

Uniform (which is mandatory at most schools here) plus stationary as mentioned already, but to carry on the home economics joke: yes. Ingredients, for the recipes that they may well specify.
Slorach
30-05-2007, 13:58
Consider some of the rubbish some people buy and read. Why not? and The Koran.
Milchama
30-05-2007, 22:47
Actually parts of the Bible SHOULD be required reading, although not for the literary aspects or religious aspects but because so much of literature is based off of the Bible.

Dr. Marie Wachlin says,
This report is the culmination of an important new research project that seeks to understand how well our current public school curriculum addresses the educational needs of an increasingly diverse student body. The Bible has long been acknowledged to be one of the most influential texts in the English language. According to a 1986 study by Anne Juhasz and Leslie Wilson, for example, when college English professors were asked what book they wished incoming freshmen to have read before entering the university, the most frequently named was the Bible. Few other books have been so influential in American culture, history, language, arts, and letters, and at the same time so likely to generate controversy among educational elites, especially when it comes to public schools.

Therefore the Bible helps kids understand American literature, furthermore teachers want the Bible to be taught Wachlin again,

Students without Bible knowledge take more time to teach. Example: “Yeah, I mean, students come to this classroom with different advantages and disadvantages. And we have students who are not from America and Europe, and they are unfamiliar with the Bible and it is not their religious text. So they’re certainly at a disadvantage. It’s harder for them. They’re not as familiar with it and it takes more time for them to understand what it is, what’s going on, what it’s about.” (No religious affiliation)

Thus teachers want it, and it helps students two good reasons for Bible study.

One more arg: Supreme Court says Bible study good this Justice Clark:

In addition, it might well be said that one's education is not complete without a study of comparative religion or the history of religion and its relationship to the advancement of civilization. It certainly may be said that the Bible is worthy of study for its literary and historic qualities. Nothing we have said here indicates that such study of the Bible or of religion, when presented objectively as part of a secular program of education, may not be effected consistently with the First Amendment. 34

Wachlin article: Link (http://bibleliteracy.org/Secure/Documents/BibleLiteracyReport2005.pdf)
Sumamba Buwhan
30-05-2007, 22:53
Wouldn't modern texts on human psychology be much more fruitful in teaching psychology than some 2000 year old text written to indoctrinate people into a religion?
Chandelier
30-05-2007, 22:56
We read some parts of the Bible, as well as Edith Hamilton's Mythology, some parts of the Koran, and parts of other religious texts, as part of English II Honors (World Literature), in tenth grade.
Chumblywumbly
30-05-2007, 22:57
Wouldn’t modern texts on human psychology be much more fruitful in teaching psychology than some 2000 year old text written to indoctrinate people into a religion?
As long as you find it impossible to read something with a critical mindset.

I’ve read the Bible, Koran, Rig Veda, and portions of Mein Kampf, but found it quite easy not to suddenly become Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Nazi.
Xenophobialand
30-05-2007, 22:58
Eh. Not really. The Bible assumes much of what cannot be explained otherwise is explainable in terms of a personified, immensely powerful yet intangible God. Modern psychology assumes much of what cannot be explained otherwise is explainable in terms of neural firings. In both cases, this link has not been proven, and indeed does not seem provable at all (you can turn off neural firings in the brain completely for some time, for instance, and a rat will still not only walk around, but learn to run a maze faster).

In other words, both operate out of unproved and unprovable estimations of what generates human behavior. Insofar as the behavior is the only thing that's being observed, analysed, and quantified, a book from 2000 years ago and a modern one can do that just as well.
Sumamba Buwhan
30-05-2007, 23:01
As long as you find it impossible to read something with a critical mindset.

I’ve read the Bible, Koran, Rig Veda, and portions of Mein Kampf, but found it quite easy not to suddenly become Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Nazi.



Huh? I never said that reading the Bible would indoctrinate anyone into something, I said that's what it was meant to do (just as my posts was meant to mean one thing but apparently was taken as another) but I still don't think it's the best way to teach human psychology as the OP seems to be suggesting.
Sumamba Buwhan
30-05-2007, 23:09
Eh. Not really. The Bible assumes much of what cannot be explained otherwise is explainable in terms of a personified, immensely powerful yet intangible God. Modern psychology assumes much of what cannot be explained otherwise is explainable in terms of neural firings. In both cases, this link has not been proven, and indeed does not seem provable at all (you can turn off neural firings in the brain completely for some time, for instance, and a rat will still not only walk around, but learn to run a maze faster).

In other words, both operate out of unproved and unprovable estimations of what generates human behavior. Insofar as the behavior is the only thing that's being observed, analysed, and quantified, a book from 2000 years ago and a modern one can do that just as well.

I agree that psychology is a soft science but it still has a bigger advantage of teaching someone some of the ins and outs of human behavior with greater chance of accuracy than does the Bible. No?
Chumblywumbly
30-05-2007, 23:14
Huh? I never said that reading the Bible would indoctrinate anyone into something, I said that’s what it was meant to do (just as my posts was meant to mean one thing but apparently was taken as another) but I still don’t think it’s the best way to teach human psychology as the OP seems to be suggesting.
Apologies.

You indoctrinated me with your post! :p

I agree that using the Bible as a tool for psychology seems a little flawed. However, so much of Western literature and culture is based or influenced by the Bible, reading it (especially the King James version) is as important as reading The Republic, Oedipus Rex or Beowulf.
Iniika
30-05-2007, 23:23
If Mythology is forced upon them, shouldn't the Bible be?

Because many Christians whine so much about the bible being literal, therefore it cannot be used in comparison to teaching mythology, which, by the way, is only an add-on to the study of ancient civilizations in humanities courses. Because books on mythology are outlining the belief system of the people in question, they are not actual scripture. BECAUSE IF YOU WANT YOUR DAMN KID TO LEARN THE DAMN BIBLE YOU PUT THEM IN A BLOODY CATHOLIC SCHOOL!

I honestly cannot believe how childish and hypocritical some religious people can get. "OMG they taught THAT in school, I'm so offended, why don't they teach MY stuff?!" SHUT UP ALREADY! Homeschool your damn kids if you don't like it.

Maybe in a few thousand years when Christianity dies out in favor of some new religion then the bible will be given as 'manditory reading'. Until then, seriously, deal with it. Christianity and the bible have adequate representation elsewhere and doesn't need to be handed out in school any more than any other modern day religious scripture.
Sumamba Buwhan
30-05-2007, 23:30
Apologies.

You indoctrinated me with your post! :p

I agree that using the Bible as a tool for psychology seems a little flawed. However, so much of Western literature and culture is based or influenced by the Bible, reading it (especially the King James version) is as important as reading The Republic, Oedipus Rex or Beowulf.

:p

Sure, but how much of the Bible is based on or influenced by written or spoken stories that came before it? Theres good evidence to suggest that many of the fables in the bible are reproductions of earlier stories. How far do we have to go back and read about history to understand the Bible itself? Where does it end? And if there is a brick wall, what's beyond that? :D Sorry about the Spinal Tap references :p.

Besides, I've only read parts of the Bible, and none of those other books you mentioned, yet I understand the books I am reading or have read just fine without those as a reference? How important is it really? I'm sure that some meaning is lost when you don't have earlier works to base ones view off of, but can it not be said also that the reading with fresh eyes gives one a chance to see somethign in a new light that reading thru a mental filter might not allow? I see what you are saying though. Trust me, I do agree that having more information will allow for a more informed outlook, I just don't think anyone could ever be fully informed about anything. Besdies, two people could have read all the same things and come to wildly different conclusions. Sorry, if most of what I say, makes little to no sense. I think I had too much caffine today.

Sorry again, it's all a bunch of wierdness to me and I question everything to give others headaches. Not really. Or do I? No. Or is that what I want you to think? yes. Really? No.
Unlucky_and_unbiddable
30-05-2007, 23:37
Depends what level it's at. When you get into Milton and Dante then having read some of the bible will come to your advantage, along with some Greek/Roman, Norse mythology. For universities I think the bible would be a good addition. Not for highschool though. First it's boring and badly written and second many of them won't be reading literature to which the background is important so it would serve as nothing other than a torture device.
Zarakon
30-05-2007, 23:47
I'm in favor of mandatory bible reading for people who commit felonies. It'd probably be more of a discouragement then the death sentence.
Chumblywumbly
30-05-2007, 23:50
Sure, but how much of the Bible is based on or influenced by written or spoken stories that came before it? Theres good evidence to suggest that many of the fables in the bible are reproductions of earlier stories. How far do we have to go back and read about history to understand the Bible itself? Where does it end? And if there is a brick wall, what’s beyond that?
Well, the Abrahamic religions stem from Gnosticism, I believe. And it’s certainly true that most Middle Eastern religions tend to follow similar lines; the flood story, etc.

In fact, wherever you go in the world, there’s always similar stories. Hercules, Jesus, Dionysus, Baal, Mythos, Osiris, etc., are all basically the same person, with extremely similar ideals and concepts. I find that fascinating.

Sorry about the Spinal Tap references :p.
You never have to apologise for a Spinal Tap reference.

Besides, I’ve only read parts of the Bible, and none of those other books you mentioned, yet I understand the books I am reading or have read just fine without those as a reference? How important is it really? I’m sure that some meaning is lost when you don’t have earlier works to base ones view off of, but can it not be said also that the reading with fresh eyes gives one a chance to see somethign in a new light that reading thru a mental filter might not allow? I see what you are saying though. Trust me, I do agree that having more information will allow for a more informed outlook, I just don’t think anyone could ever be fully informed about anything. Besdies, two people could have read all the same things and come to wildly different conclusions.
I’m not saying that you won’t understand any Western literature if you don’t read certain ancient texts, I’m just heavily suggesting that you do! You have a good point about mental filters, but stories like The Republic, Oedipus Rex or Beowulf are not only hugely influential, but damn entertaining to boot.

I also totally agree with your statement about never being able to fully informed; “Wisest is he who knows he does not know”.

But it doesn’t mean we can’t stretch our minds every so often.

Sorry again, it’s all a bunch of wierdness to me and I question everything to give others headaches. Not really. Or do I? No. Or is that what I want you to think? yes. Really? No.
Perhaps. Yes/No.

Maybe.

Hwæt! Wé Gárdena in géardagum
þéodcyninga þrym gefrúnon
hú ðá æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Johnny B Goode
31-05-2007, 00:01
It really should, or at least part of it (it's kinda long-winded). Why? Well, for one thing it glimses into human-kind's psychology and motivations, and accomplished quite a bit (good and bad). I mean, think about it. Edith Haimilton's Mythology is "required reading", so this should be too.
I think Apollodorus' Bibliotheca should be mandatory too!

If anyone cares to disagree, please usher in your argument, although I can't see a single one being plausible.

EDIT: It's called "required reading", not "mandatory reading".

(Yawn)
Chandelier
31-05-2007, 00:32
Depends what level it's at. When you get into Milton and Dante then having read some of the bible will come to your advantage, along with some Greek/Roman, Norse mythology. For universities I think the bible would be a good addition. Not for highschool though. First it's boring and badly written and second many of them won't be reading literature to which the background is important so it would serve as nothing other than a torture device.

People read Dante in high school though...we did a little bit in my tenth grade class, at least...
Good Lifes
31-05-2007, 00:54
I've tried to read most of the religious texts of the world. They are all impossible without a commentary and it's really difficult to find an unbiased commentary.

The interesting thing is at the foundation the major religions of the world teach the same things. And even more amazing is the "conservatives" of all the major religions don't have a clue as to what their religion actually believes. If people really read and studied their religious texts there would be no Pat Robertson or Bin Laudin or any other seeker of human political power. No hate of those of different beliefs.

Actually maybe mandatory reading of the texts with an unbiased commetary should be mandatory. Of course it would mean the end of the Baptists and radical Muslims. But it would be amazing to see what would happen if people actually knew what the teachings of their founders were.
Saxnot
31-05-2007, 00:55
I'm sure it's been said by this point, but whatever...

What about the Bhagavad Gita, the Diamond Sutra, the Torah, the Koran, Liber Al Vel Legis, the Guru Granth Sahib...

I think you get my drift.

Many of those I find more accesible and valuable than anything I ever got out of reading the Bible, and I've read a fair bit of it.
Spladoosh
31-05-2007, 01:07
religion should be abolished altogether.

L2Science