NationStates Jolt Archive

A lie is an untruthful statement made to someone else with the intention to deceive. To lie is to say something one believes to be false with the intention that it be taken for the truth by someone else.

wiki.


so, when is it okay to lie? how many lies do you have to tell before you are a liar?

what's the last lie you told? why did you lie then?

A lie is an untruthful statement made to someone else with the intention to deceive. To lie is to say something one believes to be false with the intention that it be taken for the truth by someone else.

wiki.


so, when is it okay to lie? how many lies do you have to tell before you are a liar?

what's the last lie you told? why did you lie then?

Ohhh nice!

Lying is a part of human nature and as such those that tell you they do not do it are umm lying.

We all lie from time to time, wether it be the 'Naaa love I'll be in by ten' or the 'yes of course I love you'. Strangely though we do some of it for aluteristic reasons, we lie to our loved ones to stop them from being hurt.

So lying, like sspeaking your mind, is amoungst the most noble of human endevours.

Aiii thank you!

A lie is an untruthful statement made to someone else with the intention to deceive. To lie is to say something one believes to be false with the intention that it be taken for the truth by someone else.

wiki.


so, when is it okay to lie? how many lies do you have to tell before you are a liar?

what's the last lie you told? why did you lie then?

IMO Its ok when you lie with genuinely good intention.

One lie makes you a liar

I told my parents that i'm fine and not to fly over. I don't want them worrying about things they can't change

so, when is it okay to lie?

Never.

Never.

What if someone is trying to murder your family and you tell them the wrong place to look?

What if someone is trying to murder your family and you tell them the wrong place to look?

Sorry? Don't understand. Why not just tell them nothing?

Is the story of Santa Claus lying?

Never.

Heh heh knew somebody would say that.

Sorry? Don't understand. Why not just tell them nothing?

Fair enough

Heh heh knew somebody would say that.

What's better is that Curious Inquiry has voted on every option

Morally, my judgement rests on intent, so I agree with Dundee-Fienn.
Of course, that doesn't mean it will always work out. Often lies cause more trouble than they're worth (but, then again, so can the truth).

What's better is that Curious Inquiry has voted on every option

which is why the poll is public.

also, yeah, I think the Santa Claus story is lying.

Sorry? Don't understand. Why not just tell them nothing?Because then they'll torture you, find out where your family is anyway, and kill them and you.

It's not that hard to imagine situation wherein lying is the least bad option.

which is why the poll is public.

also, yeah, I think the Santa Claus story is lying.

Even funnier is that the person we lie most to is our very own selves.

Even funnier is that the person we lie most to is our very own selves.

I think lying is always wrong. It doesn't seem to stop me from doing it though :( and yeah, I mostly lie to myself.

Self deception is a very usefull coping mechanism. Sometimes you just wouldn't be able to drag yourself out of bed if you didn't tell yourself things would get better, even if there is absolutely no real basis to believe that.

I think lying is always wrong. It doesn't seem to stop me from doing it though :( and yeah, I mostly lie to myself.

On a very fundamental level I agree, lying is always wrong. Yet to get through life I think we simply have to lie now and again. I think the point about lying to ourselves is key to this - we often need to do so to incentivize ourselves, often to do something good such as 'I won't have another drink', I won't eat that last cookie', 'I will visit my grandmother today' - these kinds of lies allow us to live without being in a constant state of guilt over the fact that we're not perfect when we have every choice and chance to be so.

I think lying is always wrong. It doesn't seem to stop me from doing it though :( and yeah, I mostly lie to myself.

Umm strange I would like to know why you think lying is always wrong? I mean what makes you belive this is true?

Because then they'll torture you, find out where your family is anyway, and kill them and you.
Please... It's a stupidly contrived situation. Why wouldn't they just, say, look them up in the 'phone book rather than coming here? It's just silly.
And seeing as they're going to kill me anyway, I might as well just not tell them...

It's not that hard to imagine situation wherein lying is the least bad option.

I don't like lies, or lying.

Self deception is a very usefull coping mechanism. Sometimes you just wouldn't be able to drag yourself out of bed if you didn't tell yourself things would get better, even if there is absolutely no real basis to believe that.

Is that lying though, or is that being optimistic?

Umm strange I would like to know why you think lying is always wrong? I mean what makes you belive this is true?

because it's wrong. It may be the best choice in a situation where you have lots of wrong choices, but it's still not a great thing.

That being said, I lie all the time.

"that's a beautiful picture sweetie"


"I'm fine"


"no it's not a problem"

"I feel much better today"

A specific kind of lie which is quite usefull: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children
Basicly it is making out the world to be simpler than you know it is. The simplification is a deception, but it's necessary to build on and grow an understanding.
You can't start out teaching kids relativity theorie, Newton comes first.

I don't like lies, or lying.

Granted, but that does not negate what the poster said to you about, there being a time when lying can be the better option, does it?

because it's wrong. It may be the best choice in a situation where you have lots of wrong choices, but it's still not a great thing.

That being said, I lie all the time.

"that's a beautiful picture sweetie"


"I'm fine"


"no it's not a problem"

"I feel much better today"

It may be wrong, but seeing as wrong and right highly subjective....

I'm interested in why you feel it is wrong? Because of the way you were brought up, something that happend to you in the past, it is common sense, there are many answers I guess, but I'm after only one from you Smunkee!

because it's wrong. It may be the best choice in a situation where you have lots of wrong choices, but it's still not a great thing.

That being said, I lie all the time.

"that's a beautiful picture sweetie"

I've just taken the 1 here but are you lying to protect the kid or to protect yourself?

What can you not bear, your kid hearing that the picture sucks magnificently or the pain on seeing her sad face?

A specific kind of lie which is quite usefull: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children
Basicly it is making out the world to be simpler than you know it is. The simplification is a deception, but it's necessary to build on and grow an understanding.
You can't start out teaching kids relativity theorie, Newton comes first.

I don't know if oversimplification is actually lying. If it is then I lie way too much.

Please... It's a stupidly contrived situation.Most thought experiments are. Doesn't mean they are without validity.
Not to mention such situation do occur during wars. If you don't say anything, they'll get rather suspicious; a good lie to throw them off on the other hand can save the lives of everyone hiding in your cellar.

I don't like lies, or lying.I'm sure there are a lot of things you don't like, surely given the choice betwene lying and something worse (and no better options), you'd have to consider lying the lesser of two evils.

It may be wrong, but seeing as wrong and right highly subjective....

I'm interested in why you feel it is wrong? Because of the way you were brought up, something that happend to you in the past, it is common sense, there are many answers I guess, but I'm after only one from you Smunkee!
I grew up in a house with a compulsive liar. They lied about things that didn't even matter, so after a while, it got to the point that I just got tired of it.
I've just taken the 1 here but are you lying to protect the kid or to protect yourself?

What can you not bear, your kid hearing that the picture sucks magnificently or the pain on seeing her sad face?

I lie to protect myself mostly. I am 90% sure that if I critiqued the picture the kid would try it again using my advice, I just don't want to take the chance of hurting their feelings over something as stupid as a non-proportional drawing of a dog with two heads.

Perfect rule of thumb:

Lying is wrong when the lie is deployed to extract a value from someone else. Lying is okay if you're trying to protect a value that the other person doesn't deserve. For example, it's wrong to lie for money (i.e. being a lawyer :p) but it's okay to tell someone you don't have a money clip in your shoe if he sticks a gun in your face.

People saying that lying is "always wrong" need to consider the latter circumstance.

Is that lying though, or is that being optimistic?Well, if you consider the world shitty, and try to convince yourself that it's not. Then you're trying to convince yourself of something you believe to be false, so it's a lie.
And if I was really cynical I might be inclined to call all optimism lies ;)
But your right that there's some room to wiggle.

Granted, but that does not negate what the poster said to you about, there being a time when lying can be the better option, does it?

Better than what, though? I tend to consider lying the worst thing someone can do. I'd rather be upset by the truth than consoled with some lie, only to find out that it was a lie later (which would, of course, be more upsetting).

I really don't like it.

I'm sure there are a lot of things you don't like, surely given the choice betwene lying and something worse (and no better options), you'd have to consider lying the lesser of two evils.
yes, but the lesser of two evils is still evil.

Perfect rule of thumb:

Lying is wrong when the lie is deployed to extract a value from someone else. Lying is okay if you're trying to protect a value that the other person doesn't deserve. For example, it's wrong to lie for money (i.e. being a lawyer :p) but it's okay to tell someone you don't have a money clip in your shoe if he sticks a gun in your face.

People saying that lying is "always wrong" need to consider the latter circumstance.


That is a very good rule of thumb, and those that say lying is always wrong, well it is this that interest me.

Does it come from a kneejerk reaction, or some personal past history, or upbringing? Is it something that they have thought long and hard about, is it just an instinctive reaction(there have been studies that suggest dislike of lying may be a genetic thing).

I just don't want to take the chance of hurting their feelings over something as stupid as a non-proportional drawing of a dog with two heads.

My non-proportional dog with two heads resents that statement.

See, I lied right there - Ah'm goin' stright to hell now

When your girlfriend asks you if she's fat.

yes, but the lesser of two evils is still evil.

but justifiable

My non-proportional dog with two heads resents that statement.

See, I lied right there - Ah'm goin' stright to hell now

I lied today. I feel really guilty about it too. It wasn't one of those nice lies either, it was a bad mean lie.

When your girlfriend asks you if she's fat.

Try "when your girlfriend asks you absolutely anything"

but justifiable

sometimes the best choice is still wrong. ;)

for example

2+2=

a)5
b)6

I don't know if oversimplification is actually lying. If it is then I lie way too much.If you take the definition broadly, I would say it is lying. Because you willingly misrepresent reality. However, there is no malice involved. (Nor is there in the case of Santa Clause). There also isn't really self-interest involved.
As a rule of thumb, I would say lying is bad if it has malicious or purely self-serving intent. If it's meant to help others or spare someone's feelings it may still be misguided, but I wouldn't say it's in itself bad.

sometimes the best choice is still wrong. ;)

for example

2+2=

a)5
b)6

Yep but you asked if it was ok to lie in some situations. I'd say its generally not good to lie but it can be ok i.e. justifiable

Well, if you consider the world shitty, and try to convince yourself that it's not. Then you're trying to convince yourself of something you believe to be false, so it's a lie.
And if I was really cynical I might be inclined to call all optimism lies ;)
But your right that there's some room to wiggle.

Umm I gota disagree with ya. Surly if you don't know the outcome then to tell yourself it will all be okay, is not a lie? Okay perhaps if you feel that it won't all be okay, thne I guess telling yourself the opposite may count as lying, but as I say if you don't knowthe outcome, nor can you know then I'm gonna call it optimisim and pessimism.

Oh, there are plenty of white lies one tells to make things go smoothly. "We have to take some tests", "umm, those were some tasty cookies you baked", "Yes, I'm fine", "yes, that was as good for me as it was for you"... telling the truth all the time would be so time-consuming, nothing would get done.

Better than what, though? I tend to consider lying the worst thing someone can do. I'd rather be upset by the truth than consoled with some lie, only to find out that it was a lie later (which would, of course, be more upsetting).

I really don't like it.

Okay fair doos then, but is lying worse than murder?

And I'll ask you as well, what about lying is so bad in your mind?

sometimes the best choice is still wrong. ;)

for example

2+2=

a)5
b)6

2+2=5, for very high values of 2. :p

That is a very good rule of thumb, and those that say lying is always wrong, well it is this that interest me.

Does it come from a kneejerk reaction, or some personal past history, or upbringing? Is it something that they have thought long and hard about, is it just an instinctive reaction(there have been studies that suggest dislike of lying may be a genetic thing).

I'm not sure why, exactly... As far as I know there's been nothing in my history particularly related to it, but I've thought about it and I just really, really don't like lies. Deliberately getting things wrong really upsets me.
If you have a bad truth, you can do something to fix it.
If you have a good lie, it might've all gone horribly, unrecoverably wrong by the time you find out.

Okay fair doos then, but is lying worse than murder?

And I'll ask you as well, what about lying is so bad in your mind?

In my opinion, yes it is. I appreciate that many people disagree (yay subjective morals!), but I can think of lots of reasons why you might acceptably (to me) murder (ie. unlawfully kill) someone, but none where you might acceptably (to me) lie. I think my general lack of valuing human life is well-known.

And I answered the second question up there ^. Well, as answered as I can... I don't like having inaccurate information, and lying just feels horribly wrong.

Lying is ok based on intent . I lie at times but most of the time the lies just aren't that important and don't change much If anything.

The biggest problem I have with lying is that it becomes harder and harder to trust people the more I lie. If I can do it so easily why can't they. It makes things difficult sometimes when that trust is degraded too far.

Sorry? Don't understand. Why not just tell them nothing?

oooh...ooooh...oooh...what if they said they would kill YOU if you kept mum.

Now, it's between you staying mute, and staying alive. DO you lie to save yourself and your family?

oooh...ooooh...oooh...what if they said they would kill YOU if you kept mum.

Now, it's between you staying mute, and staying alive. DO you lie to save yourself and your family?

I'd tell the killer because then the killer wouldn't try to extract the knowledge from me which would then hurt me and the people I am trying to save , therefore lying Is the best solution.

I'm not sure why, exactly... As far as I know there's been nothing in my history particularly related to it, but I've thought about it and I just really, really don't like lies. Deliberately getting things wrong really upsets me.
If you have a bad truth, you can do something to fix it.
If you have a good lie, it might've all gone horribly, unrecoverably wrong by the time you find out.

Yeah I agree, and like I said, this is I guess why I find it interesting. I don't like lying, or liers, and I guess in that I can be said to represent the norm.

Why though, what makes lying so bad, why when faced with somebody caught out in a lie, does your anger level rise so high, and so quickly?

It seems to be a built in human reaction, heh what is porpouse is, and why it is though ahhh unaswered questions.

It's never OK.
I do it, but I always regret it.

The last time I lied was to a close friend, a few days ago. Just at that moment, I didn't want to be nagged about a trivial matter which I could see I was going to be nagged about.

I reversed the decision a few minutes later. I got nagged. It really wasn't a very big lie, but even so it bugged me more than it was worth.

I love Smunkee's questions. Trivial confessions don't cost a thing, and they feel good :)

Okay fair doos then, but is lying worse than murder?

And I'll ask you as well, what about lying is so bad in your mind?

Thats a rather stupid question , Lying is rarely worse than murder . Except in cases were lying leads to death.
I can't think of many modern everday situation where lying is worse than murder.

Little white lies are kinda meh in my book. I prefer not to lie at all, mostly 'cause I'm terrible at it.

It's never OK.
I do it, but I always regret it.

Lying for the greater good Is ok , don't you think?

oooh...ooooh...oooh...what if they said they would kill YOU if you kept mum.

Now, it's between you staying mute, and staying alive. DO you lie to save yourself and your family?

Why do I believe they won't kill me anyway? Why do I believe they will kill me if I say nothing? They could just be saying it to threaten me.
Why do I believe they won't, when they discover my deception, come back and kill me as revenge for lying (in the unlikely event that they didn't kill me before going to check it out)?
Why do they believe I know? I could probably hazard some good guesses, but I don't have trackers on my family so even if I thought I told them the truth I might be wrong anyway.

And why on earth would I help some mass-murderer too stupid to look up my family's address in the telephone book?

I always lie.

Little white lies are kinda meh in my book. I prefer not to lie at all, mostly 'cause I'm terrible at it.

what about really big lies?

see, I told my kids that the dog wanted to move and that he was going to live with a new family, but actually the dog is really very sick and I sent him off to be put to sleep.

I am a bad person.

Thats a rather stupid question , Lying is rarely worse than murder . Except in cases were lying leads to death.
I can't think of many modern everday situation where lying is worse than murder.

Heh maybe you are right(morals being subjective though) but in the context of the discussion, and posed to the poster it was, I think you'll find it both resonable and valid.

Infact look at his answer.

And why on earth would I help some mass-murderer too stupid to look up my family's address in the telephone book?

It wouldn't be helping them though if you lied.

Basically the question is just one of choosing between the death of a loved one or a lie. Thats all you need to know for this. Which one do you consider worse? You lying to save them or allowing their death by telling the truth?

Little white lies are kinda meh in my book. I prefer not to lie at all, mostly 'cause I'm terrible at it.

I lie when I just don't want to tell some one something , Although most of the time when I lie for that reason Its because I don't want to tell them and It probably doesn't concern them . The people I talk to don't have to know everything that happens In my life.

It's never OK.


Why?

Lying for the greater good Is ok , don't you think?

Not if there's an alternative.
For instance saying "that's none of your business."

Lying creates confusion. It leads others to make ill-informed decisions. And who am I to judge all the consequences, that I can calculate the greater good?

what about really big lies?

see, I told my kids that the dog wanted to move and that he was going to live with a new family, but actually the dog is really very sick and I sent him off to be put to sleep.

I am a bad person.

No not really, only you and your spouse/partner can judge wether the kids would be more harmed facing up to the death of a loved one at this time, then being told a lie to safegaured them this until they are a little older.

I don't think anybody but your self and your spouse/partner, is justified in either calling you on it, or makeing that desicion.

Why?

I've said all I have to say. Goodnight.

EDIT: This is a reply to a post AFTER this. The thread has moved on too far and this would disrupt it.
Cranhaden is welcome to TG me, or post to the thread if that seems right to them.

Most of the time saying "none of your business" Is lying

If I say "that's none of your business" to you, is there any doubt that I am withholding information? If I said "you don't need to know that" when in fact you are harmed by not-knowing, I am using my knowledge to have power over you, and to whether that is providing you with wrong information I say: you know I am withholding information when I use either of those expressions. I am explicitly withholding information, not denying that I have it.
"That is none of your business" is a statement of my privacy, not my knowledge of your interests.
"You don't need to know that" is a statement of my personal interest in keeping a secret from you. It is a power statement, not a lie.

Though I see that someone could take "That's none of your business" literally. Perhaps "I would prefer not to say" is less open to misinterpretation.

, Most situations like that involve the person in a way regardless of how small or trivial. I never get confused when I lie but then again I don't tell big lies or lie about important tihngs. Whenever i'm asked about something important and I'm not inclined to answer I just dodge the question or say I'm not going to tell them.

Good. But I posit that by lying you are confusing yourself, because you have said one thing and thought another ... and you really don't know whether you were believed, or if not, whether the other person's guess at the truth is the same as what you know to be the truth.

"Just dodging the question" is problematic. I guess it depends on how obvious it is that you are refusing to answer. To deliberately misunderstand, to answer some question other than what was asked, is alright as long as the other detects that you've done that. I prefer your second option ... making a joke is an option too.

Many things have answer simple enough to realise what would be ultimately best or preferable over another.

Like the "lying to an armed robber" scenario for instance? I think the debate has shown some major problems with the "simply best" solution, and all the factors are never known.

Let's look at a 'white' lie. I lie to my (hypothetical) child about the existence of Santa, a big fat man who comes down the chimney on christmas eve with presents. To protect my lie, I tell the child that you aren't supposed to see Santa, he's very shy and he won't come back if you hide in the living room and try to see him (yeah, I'll get busted putting the presents out eventually, but the more years it works the better.)
Little kids love their Santa it seems. If he didn't leave presents they probably wouldn't be so rapt about the big fat man coming down the chimney, but that's not my point. He might be some simplified model of God and Heaven, watching children all year and rewarding them all at once with whatever they want ... but that's not my point either.
Is making-up Santa all good? There couldn't be anything wrong with telling a lie like that, could there? Well actually there could:

A thief or child-abductor might choose christmas eve to enter the house. So they don't come down the chimney and they don't look much like Santa, but my kid stays quiet as a mouse instead of screaming. Bad things happen.
I get caught putting the presents out. I lie some more, say that Santa is sick and he called me up to deliver the presents instead. Next year, my kid stakes out the living-room and sees me doing it again. The cat's out of the bag now, but the "you aren't supposed to see Santa" still has some currency, and they read it as "if you see Santa is really Daddy, you aren't supposed to say." That's a bad lesson I think.
Your kid might be one of those who goes around telling the younger ones there IS no Santa. Just throwing their weight around, of course, but it can be hurtful to the younger one. You gave the kid a weapon there: esoteric knowledge, one truth for a seven-year old, the direct opposite for a four-year-old. That's different from "more detail, better understanding" which they will have anyway from being older, it's parent-power ... the power to make decisions on behalf of the younger child. They can do a thing which cannot be undone ... though I suppose that could be a good lesson.
There are many pretty things we learn very young, which should never be thrown away. Throwing away Santa because "you're grown up now and don't need to believe that any more" could be a precedent for quite unnecessary disenchantment. Even a sense of shame that you might be considered "a little kid" for believing what you're told. "I was lied to, but that is always for my own good" or similar bad lessons.
Simplest of all: It is hypocrisy to teach children a simple lesson "do not lie to me" at the same time you are lying to them for any reason. The simple lesson fails, so the more complicated "lies are OK if they harm nobody, but you have to be sure that's so" tends towards "lie if you want to."


You don't know the consequences of any action. Choosing chocolate over an apple today might make the difference between narrowly avoiding being run over the next day, and dying under the wheels. This is life. The world is scarey in its unpredictability, but couldn't we at least rely on each other to be honest?

Shouldn't we rely even on our enemies, to sneer right in our face and call us fat?... because in a world where people lie on their own judgement, my enemy can smile at me charmingly and offer to buy me icecream ... and that is even partly my fault, for being gullible?

For some reason I'm thinking of the Dalai Lama on his tour of Australia. He did an interview where he sat and smiled silently in response to most of the questions (about China and politics mostly.) Sometimes he talked about the question instead of answering it. I was greatly impressed with the fellow ... so gentle.

In my opinion, yes it is. I appreciate that many people disagree (yay subjective morals!), but I can think of lots of reasons why you might acceptably (to me) murder (ie. unlawfully kill) someone, but none where you might acceptably (to me) lie. I think my general lack of valuing human life is well-known.


I personnaly fail to see how a simple lie can be worse than depriving some one of there ultimate possession and right.

Not if there's an alternative.
For instance saying "that's none of your business."

Lying creates confusion. It leads others to make ill-informed decisions. And who am I to judge all the consequences, that I can calculate the greater good?

That is noble, but surly you don't belive that our respective goverments don't lie to us, or indeed we are not lied to on a daily basis from this direction or that?

Not if there's an alternative.
For instance saying "that's none of your business."

Lying creates confusion. It leads others to make ill-informed decisions. And who am I to judge all the consequences, that I can calculate the greater good?

Most of the time saying "none of your business" Is lying , Most situations like that involve the person in a way regardless of how small or trivial. I never get confused when I lie but then again I don't tell big lies or lie about important tihngs. Whenever i'm asked about something important and I'm not inclined to answer I just dodge the question or say I'm not going to tell them.

Many things have answer simple enough to realise what would be ultimately best or preferable over another.

I try not to lie....but, as most people, I do it sometimes.

the last time I lied, it was when a friend wanted me to come over, and I knew that another of her friends was going to be there, and I don't care for that friend...so I said I had other plans. Was it really a lie, though...I did have other plans, as sitting at my house with the girls was other plans....

I try not to lie to my children. If I am shown a picture that I think is BUTT ugly, I'll find SOMETHING I can compliment..."wow, you used alot of colors in that picture" "That's a pretty blue you chose" etc. Not lies.

If one were to ask me about Santa Claus, I don't specifically LIE, but I guess when it comes to that, I practice lying by omission.

That also begs the question...is lying by omission as bad as outright lying?

DOG KILLER:

you're just protecting the innocent from the harsh reality of life

philosophers have argued over the concept of lying and wasted enough time on it... its a grey area, sometimes right, sometimes wrong, its all about trust.

for example, conspiracy theories have emerged as governments use ever more ingenius way's of convincing us they are telling the truth...when they are just arguing a political case leading to a breach of trust and ever more people convinced its all just lies...trust me? would you if you thought i may be lying

It wouldn't be helping them though if you lied.

Basically the question is just one of choosing between the death of a loved one or a lie. Thats all you need to know for this. Which one do you consider worse? You lying to save them or allowing their death by telling the truth?

I think that Nobel Hobos summed it up:

Not if there's an alternative.
For instance saying "that's none of your business."

Lying creates confusion. It leads others to make ill-informed decisions. And who am I to judge all the consequences, that I can calculate the greater good?

I'm not forced to say anything. I can always say nothing; it may have consequences for me, but in the situation given it doesn't help the would-be murderer, and it's safe to assume the murderer would kill me after I told him anyway.

what about really big lies?

see, I told my kids that the dog wanted to move and that he was going to live with a new family, but actually the dog is really very sick and I sent him off to be put to sleep.

I am a bad person.
No you're not. You simply wanted to protect your children from unnecessary pain because you love and care about them, and you value your morals, integrity and judgement highly enough to be questioning your actions and beliefs. :fluffle:

I appreciate that many people disagree (yay subjective morals!), but I can think of lots of reasons why you might acceptably (to me) murder (ie. unlawfully kill) someone, but none where you might acceptably (to me) lie.
It seems to me that you're looking at from a very personal perspective.

I can understand that you never want to be lied to, but can you assume that everyone else would desire the same thing? I know there are a few rare things and certain situations where I'd prefer to be be lied to, or be lied to through omission.

Also, are you working off of the idea that you would not create a situation where it warrants you being lied to? For example, I doubt you'd attack someone, but could you not justify a victim lying and saying that someone is coming to meet them to scare of their attacker?

Lying is "ok" when you do less harm by lying than by not lying - when it is the lesser of two (or more) evils, as it were.

I wouldn't call someone a "liar" unless they habitually and unnecessarily lied.

Personally, I suck at lying and end up feeling guilty when I do it, so I don't do much of it. I'm trying to remember the last time I lied, so I'll get back to you on that. This shouldn't be taken as me trying to say I lie less than many other people, it's just that I have a sucky memory. hehe

I do sometimes stretch the truth (aka lie with some truth) on things like how bad I feel if I'd rather stay at home and work rather than go in town.

It seems to me that you're looking at from a very personal perspective.
Aye, probably.
I can understand that you never want to be lied to, but can you assume that everyone else would desire the same thing? I know there are a few rare things and certain situations where I'd prefer to be be lied to, or be lied to through omission.
But why?
Wouldn't it upset you more, later, when you uncovered the lie?
Also, are you working off of the idea that you would not create a situation where it warrants you being lied to? For example, I doubt you'd attack someone, but could you not justify a victim lying and saying that someone is coming to meet them to scare of their attacker?
Oh, I'd understand why they did it. But I'd also understand if they pulled a gun and shot me. I wouldn't necessarily like either, but that's what you get for attacking people; fair's fair.

what about really big lies?

see, I told my kids that the dog wanted to move and that he was going to live with a new family, but actually the dog is really very sick and I sent him off to be put to sleep.

I am a bad person.

You aren't a bad person. You did something to protect your children from pain. Even if they were to find out, they won't hate you for it. You know your children better than anyone. We had to surrender our cats when my oldest was just over 2. I told her they were going to live in the Kitty Hotel. It didn't make sense to tell her that there was a chance they would be "euthanized" there.

If you think you made the best choice for your children and family, then it's not bad at all

Lies are a tricky thing because they can be acceptable when it's in the name of self-preservation, or if you're sparing someone's feelings because you care about them.

It's a difficult topic because you run the risk of hurting people if they want the truth or if they would rather hear the lie.

The truth like reality isn't pretty no matter how nicely you paint it. Sometimes the lie is better from an aesthetic point of view but it isn't the best approach.

For example, as a few of you had said, you may lie to a friend because you don't want to do something but it's better than saying what you really feel. You've also spared your friend the truth because they may be better off not knowing the real reason if it means that it helps keep the friendship healthy.

Or maybe we lie to children because we don't feel they are ready to know the real reasons why something is or isn't.

Lies aren't a good thing but they are a necessary evil when the truth may do more harm than good. This isn't to say that the truth should be avoided. It may be best to gloss over the truth sometimes because the truth may come out sounding worse than the lie itself.

I believe that it is ok to lie sometimes and that other times the truth is imperative. If the lie hurts no one then it may be ok, but if it's a matter of life or death or the lie would hurt someone, the truth is most important in the end.

When is it ok to lie?

For example, I find that sometimes people worry too much about me so I lie if I don't want them to worry or at least tell a white lie because I don't want them to be overly concern when they have themselves to worry about. This is my choice to lie. But I feel that if I tell the truth I get too smothered with concern and it makes me VERY uncomfortable.

But I will tell the truth if it is in the interests of all.

Ultimately, I feel the choice lies with the person and what that little voice called 'common sense' dictates.

Provided it suits my ends, whenever the oppurtunity arises, and given I tend to want to keep those close to me happy, people I care about don't get hurt.

When god says so.

But why?
Wouldn't it upset you more, later, when you uncovered the lie?
The majority of lies, yes. But for some examples where I'd rather be lied to...
-I know I'm slightly overweight, and everyone who sees me knows that, obviously. But if someone's thinking about it, or thinks I should do something about it, or has any opinion on it whatsoever, I don't want to hear it.
-If I'm really stressed out/really happy because of something special and someone wants to tell me something which will stress me out and telling me won't change anything or do anything good, and will be irrelevant in a short period of time, then I'd rather not be told.
-If my boyfriend sees someone really attractive, but that doesn't make him want to change anything about our relationship or act on any desires, if he knows I'm going through an insecure/rough patch, I'd rather not be told.
-If I need to build up some confidence for something in the short term, I'd rather not be told something which is going to knock my confidence, or at least be told at a later time if that's not a problem.

Basically, if telling me something will only cause harm, and nothing will change for the good, or there is nothing that needs to be dealt with and basically will be pointless.

Of course, in all these situations, I've generally made it clear that I'd prefer not to tell the truth. I'd hate for someone to assume that I'd prefer to be lied to. Also, in various cases I already know the truth (ie that my boyfriend finds other women attractive), I just don't want to be told it because of my own irrationalities and insecurities usually.

Oh, I'd understand why they did it. But I'd also understand if they pulled a gun and shot me. I wouldn't necessarily like either, but that's what you get for attacking people; fair's fair.
So, do you think that lying in the situation would be a bad choice, personally dislikeable, and/or morally wrong?

(I realise a lot of people are focusing on you, but I personally don't mean to sound like I'm attacking you or your views - I'm just curious)

(I realise a lot of people are focusing on you, but I personally don't mean to sound like I'm attacking you or your views - I'm just curious)

Heh all men find other woman attractive. You are okay focusing on CD, he likes it really.:D

Never.

Never, always, forever... I distrust infinites. That's why I never use them. ;)

As for the poll, I think it should have the option "To protect my family from harm."

A lie is an untruthful statement made to someone else with the intention to deceive. To lie is to say something one believes to be false with the intention that it be taken for the truth by someone else.

wiki.


so, when is it okay to lie? how many lies do you have to tell before you are a liar?

what's the last lie you told? why did you lie then?

Everyone lies. What matters is to whom, and why.

That doesn't appear to be an option in your poll.

I can't remember the last lie I told atm. I don't like to lie, so I try to avoid doing anything that would cause me to have to lie. But yeah I will lie if I feel I must. It's best to just not say nothing sometimes though.

The majority of lies, yes. But for some examples where I'd rather be lied to...
[Snip]
Basically, if telling me something will only cause harm, and nothing will change for the good, or there is nothing that needs to be dealt with and basically will be pointless.
I wouldn't count those really as lying; you seem to be saying that you don't want to be bothered by unimportant things that might upset you, not that people tell you lies. You don't want people to tell you they think you're overweight, which is fair enough; you're not demanding they tell you they think you're thin, unless it's true.
You seem to have also excepted being told the truth in all of those situations if it's important and urgent.
Of course, in all these situations, I've generally made it clear that I'd prefer not to tell the truth. I'd hate for someone to assume that I'd prefer to be lied to. Also, in various cases I already know the truth (ie that my boyfriend finds other women attractive), I just don't want to be told it because of my own irrationalities and insecurities usually.
But wouldn't you just not say anything, rather than lie?
I suppose there's a bit of a dilemma if someone asks you a question, but I assume if they didn't want to know they wouldn't ask.
So, do you think that lying in the situation would be a bad choice, personally dislikeable, and/or morally wrong?

(I realise a lot of people are focusing on you, but I personally don't mean to sound like I'm attacking you or your views - I'm just curious)

From their point of view it might be a better choice than being attacked, but it would be dislikeable and wrong to me. It's all relative... I wouldn't take that course of action myself (doubt I'd even think of it, and I wouldn't expect the attacker to believe it anyway).

And I know, I'm making the most fuss so will be poked at most ;)

Heh all men find other woman attractive. You are okay focusing on CD, he likes it really.:D

Hehehehe :D

Is the story of Santa Claus lying?

it can be but its not necessarily lying.

santa clause is a fun tradition to have with your small children. kids are completely captivated by the idea of this mysterious stranger who knows all about them and brings them the best presents.

insisting that its TRUE to an increasingly skeptical 5+ year old is lying. its also a very dangerous precedent to set. why would your child believe you later on when you tell her that god loves her or that marijuana use will make her insane?

what about really big lies?

see, I told my kids that the dog wanted to move and that he was going to live with a new family, but actually the dog is really very sick and I sent him off to be put to sleep.

I am a bad person.

did you really do that?

it can be but its not necessarily lying.

santa clause is a fun tradition to have with your small children. kids are completely captivated by the idea of this mysterious stranger who knows all about them and brings them the best presents.

insisting that its TRUE to an increasingly skeptical 5+ year old is lying. its also a very dangerous precedent to set. why would your child believe you later on when you tell her that god loves her or that marijuana use will make her insane?

When I first began questioning about Santa Claus, my mother gave an interesting answer. She said, "Santa Claus exists if you believe in him." Deep down, I think I understood that what she meant was that SC didn't exist in the way that I was asking. However, I wanted him to exist, so I kept on believing and hoping. Even now, I think it would be great if someone like Santa Claus existed, so I look for his better qualities in other people. =)

did you really do that?

yeah. :( it wasn't my idea.

When I first began questioning about Santa Claus, my mother gave an interesting answer. She said, "Santa Claus exists if you believe in him." Deep down, I think I understood that what she meant was that SC didn't exist in the way that I was asking. However, I wanted him to exist, so I kept on believing and hoping. Even now, I think it would be great if someone like Santa Claus existed, so I look for his better qualities in other people. =)

its a nice way of not lying to you and allowing you to keep that idea alive as long as you needed it.

what i told my son was

at christmastime everyone believes in santa

and

those who dont believe in santa dont get presents from santa.

he insists that i told him santa didnt exist or that he never really believed but what really happened is that he had santa for as long as santa was important to him and then the belief fell away naturally without being artificially propped up with silly lies.

yeah. :( it wasn't my idea.

ooohhh you mean your husband insisted that it was the best way to handle it?

you know it wasnt.

ooohhh you mean your husband insisted that it was the best way to handle it?

you know it wasnt.

I wanted to tell them that he was sick and that he had to go to the hospital and then later tell them he died.......which was still lying in my book since I don't actually want to tell them that I paid to have him killed. I just think it was a better lie.

They don't seem to care that the dog is gone, and I did explain that we would never ever see him again. I think the older one knows what's going on though...so I feel double bad. If she asks I am just going to tell the truth.

I wanted to tell them that he was sick and that he had to go to the hospital and then later tell them he died.......which was still lying in my book since I don't actually want to tell them that I paid to have him killed. I just think it was a better lie.

They don't seem to care that the dog is gone, and I did explain that we would never ever see him again. I think the older one knows what's going on though...so I feel double bad. If she asks I am just going to tell the truth.

you lost an opportunity to teach your girls about dying and how to handle it.

i does take sensitivity to deal with the difference between putting a suffering animal to sleep and how NO thats not what we are going to do to gramma when she has some illness.

you lost an opportunity to teach your girls about dying and how to handle it.

i does take sensitivity to deal with the difference between putting a suffering animal to sleep and how NO thats not what we are going to do to gramma when she has some illness.

well, they have dealt with the death of a close family member before....they just take things really literally right now and they would hate me for killing their dog.

it's okay to tell someone you don't have a money clip in your shoe if he sticks a gun in your face.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/bandit.gif Okay, I'll take your wallet and your shoes.

Lying for an altruistic reason; because someone can be hurt by the truth and you want to protect them. Telling somsone you have no idea about a secret surprise party when your the one planning it, other such little white lies are not bad, nobody is harmed. The only way I rate tings good or bad is - does anyone get hurt?

Heh all men find other woman attractive. You are okay focusing on CD, he likes it really.:D
That's why I have no real problem with it, but still prefer to not be always be aware of it :p
And hehe :P

I wouldn't count those really as lying; you seem to be saying that you don't want to be bothered by unimportant things that might upset you, not that people tell you lies. You don't want people to tell you they think you're overweight, which is fair enough; you're not demanding they tell you they think you're thin, unless it's true.
You seem to have also excepted being told the truth in all of those situations if it's important and urgent.
True... I guess they are more grey cases, which some might classify as "lies through ommission", but I don't particularly want direct lies, no.

But wouldn't you just not say anything, rather than lie?
I don't know if my wording got confused... I don't lie, or I try not to - I do either keep quiet, tell the truth, or perhaps soften my words. I've lied about big things in the past and absolutely hated it.
I suppose there's a bit of a dilemma if someone asks you a question, but I assume if they didn't want to know they wouldn't ask.
In lots of cases, I think that would be a false assumption, but one you could argue if someone got annoyed at you being honest.

From their point of view it might be a better choice than being attacked, but it would be dislikeable and wrong to me. It's all relative... I wouldn't take that course of action myself (doubt I'd even think of it, and I wouldn't expect the attacker to believe it anyway).

And I know, I'm making the most fuss so will be poked at most ;)
What makes it wrong? The intent, outcome...? Or is it simply a case of personal moral objectivity, with clear cut "rules" for you? For me, I think in a different way and in the past it has seemed an unresolveable difference with others.

Cases where someone lies through shame, hurt or embarassment... would you respond in perhaps a similar way of understanding but disliking their choice?

what's the last lie you told?

This one. ;)

I'm too lazy to read the whole thread, has anyone else used this joke yet?

Oh yes... and the last lie I told?

Told someone that I wasn't quite in love with them yet anyway. They'll be better without me...

it's ok to lie when it's done to keep from hurting someone's feelings or if it's done to save someone's life.

A lie is an untruthful statement made to someone else with the intention to deceive. To lie is to say something one believes to be false with the intention that it be taken for the truth by someone else.

wiki.


so, when is it okay to lie? how many lies do you have to tell before you are a liar?

what's the last lie you told? why did you lie then?

That is noble, but surly you don't belive that our respective goverments don't lie to us, or indeed we are not lied to on a daily basis from this direction or that?

"Noble but surly" indeed! I should probably have that tattooed on me somewhere :D

Yeah, it's a principle I can't live up to, but it would be nice to live in a world where people never lied, including to themselves. And did that on principle, a principle akin to the scientific method in holding the search for truth above personal or even collective interests of the community.

We don't do so bad here, come to think of it. Of course this is a very small world and there's no cookie-jar.

2+2=5, for very high values of 2. :p

Actually not a joke!

1.5 < 2 < 2.4

If 2 is only known within 26% accuracy*, it can be written with only 1 significant digit, without fabricating information (the second digit)

(2 + 2) will have the same accuracy as either value, so we can't add a significant digit.

2 + 2 = 3
2 + 2 = 4
2 + 2 = 5

are all equally true!

To insist that 2 + 2 = 4 is to fabricate information which is not available. It is in fact a lie for any real measurement of 2.

*For example, there are two cupcakes on a plate, but they've crumbled up a bit. The observer judges that there's at least one-and-a-half cupcakes, also that the quantity of cupcakes is closer to two than three. Without defining "one cupcake" more precisely, or making a more precise measurement (eg by eating) there is no way for them to confidently say there are 2.0 cupcakes. They'd be lying .

I wanted to tell them that he was sick and that he had to go to the hospital and then later tell them he died.......which was still lying in my book since I don't actually want to tell them that I paid to have him killed. I just think it was a better lie.

I should have answered this first. Hope the silly maths didn't scare you off?

I remember being told lies like that as a child. Whether my parents were both very bad liars, or I knew them too well, I could pick the lies from an early age. I was outraged the first time, but quickly began to lie in return: by pretending to believe lies. I was never in any doubt that I was being lied to from protectiveness or to make me do something I would later see was right (eg go to bed.)

In fact, is it really a lie if it's out there on the table like that? A lies to B, B knows it's a lie but doesn't challenge it, A knows that B knows but doesn't confess to lying -- that seems more like a mutual agreement to not have the truth out, than a lie intended to provide false information.

I still see a problem in such "bad faith." But it's the lesser problem of hiding. No-one is getting false information, there is just a lack of it.

They don't seem to care that the dog is gone, and I did explain that we would never ever see him again. I think the older one knows what's going on though...so I feel double bad. If she asks I am just going to tell the truth.

"They don't seem to care" ? Perhaps they have you sussed, or perhaps just the elder does and the younger is following her emotional response?
As you say, if she asks you will have to tell the truth. You shouldn't tear yourself up about this, consider it more like mutual respect for each other's feelings and an agreement not to tell the truth.
Having an animal you know well put down is a pretty hard decision, so be kind on yourself too!

Oh yes... and the last lie I told?

Told someone that I wasn't quite in love with them yet anyway. They'll be better without me...

"In love with" isn't well enough defined to even be sure it's something you can lie about. You lied to protect them, demonstrating love ... but love grows best without trying to define it too closely ... too hard for me. You are spared judgement ;)

I should have answered this first. Hope the silly maths didn't scare you off?

I remember being told lies like that as a child. Whether my parents were both very bad liars, or I knew them too well, I could pick the lies from an early age. I was outraged the first time, but quickly began to lie in return: by pretending to believe lies. I was never in any doubt that I was being lied to from protectiveness or to make me do something I would later see was right (eg go to bed.)

In fact, is it really a lie if it's out there on the table like that? A lies to B, B knows it's a lie but doesn't challenge it, A knows that B knows but doesn't confess to lying -- that seems more like a mutual agreement to not have the truth out, than a lie intended to provide false information.

I still see a problem in such "bad faith." But it's the lesser problem of hiding. No-one is getting false information, there is just a lack of it.



"They don't seem to care" ? Perhaps they have you sussed, or perhaps just the elder does and the younger is following her emotional response?
As you say, if she asks you will have to tell the truth. You shouldn't tear yourself up about this, consider it more like mutual respect for each other's feelings and an agreement not to tell the truth.
Having an animal you know well put down is a pretty hard decision, so be kind on yourself too!

she asked. I came clean, she said "you probably shouldn't tell sissy that you killed the dog"

:rolleyes:

like I don't feel bad enough.

now, it's like we have this thing in the house......lying to the 4 year old, great. :(

and my dog is dead.

my day sucks.

In lots of cases, I think that would be a false assumption, but one you could argue if someone got annoyed at you being honest.
Perhaps... I do try and be subtle or gentle if I think I'm about to give them the answer they don't want, but I'm not going to lie to them. Most people I know should realise that anyway.
What makes it wrong? The intent, outcome...? Or is it simply a case of personal moral objectivity, with clear cut "rules" for you? For me, I think in a different way and in the past it has seemed an unresolveable difference with others.
I think it's a clear-cut personal rule mostly. A handy, simple abstraction of a complicated world (like all rules).
Quite often lies are told with good intent, but the outcome can be bad anyway; and who's to say it's better off to lie? The liar, or the person being lied to? It's all too uncertain and confusing to me, best off without it.
Cases where someone lies through shame, hurt or embarassment... would you respond in perhaps a similar way of understanding but disliking their choice?
With embarassment, yes, I'd understand. I've lied to avoid embarassment a couple of times in the past, and still feel a bit guilty about it (despite that I'm probably the only person to remember it, it was years ago, I didn't get found out - apart from by the person who made the claim I lied about and denied, in one case - and they were trivial, silly things anyway... No , I won't share). But I hope I wouldn't do the same in the future (actually, I hope I'd avoid making the embarassing mistakes in the future, but I hope I wouldn't lie about them if I did).
Shame and hurt... Less so. The lies in those cases would be a bad idea in the long run, as they'd wind up worse than the original wrong.


my day sucks.

:(

she asked. I came clean, she said "you probably shouldn't tell sissy that you killed the dog"

:rolleyes:

like I don't feel bad enough.

now, it's like we have this thing in the house......lying to the 4 year old, great. :(

and my dog is dead.

my day sucks.

Owww.

There's one good thing ... the older one isn't wondering "did mommy lie to me" now. It's great that she can ask without being afraid you'll be angry.

I hate having to make that decision. The vet tries to make it easier by saying "it will happen soon anyway" and stuff like that, but even though they're right they can't take the decision away from you.

I had to bury a dog last year ... it died right there in the house I was minding. I cried uncontrollably and felt sad for days, but it was still better than having to say "yes do it."

I always lie.
But if you always lie, then this statement is in itself a lie, which means you're telling the truth -- but if you're telling the truth then you cannot ALWAYS lie.......

Owww.

There's one good thing ... the older one isn't wondering "did mommy lie to me" now. It's great that she can ask without being afraid you'll be angry.

I hate having to make that decision. The vet tries to make it easier by saying "it will happen soon anyway" and stuff like that, but even though they're right they can't take the decision away from you.

I had to bury a dog last year ... it died right there in the house I was minding. I cried uncontrollably and felt sad for days, but it was still better than having to say "yes do it."
It helps a bit that I knew he was suffering and that it was only going to get worse, at least I saved him some pain. It sucks though because he was literally the best dog ever. He even pissed on the cat of a man who was annoying me once.

When you're in bed?

I made a baaaaaaaad pun :(

Hi, I'm back from vacation...but I had no internet the whole time, so what kind of a vacation is that? :P Anyway, I am not particularly squeamish about stretching the truth sometimes. Humans are great that way.

But if you always lie, then this statement is in itself a lie, which means you're telling the truth -- but if you're telling the truth then you cannot ALWAYS lie.......

I think you just got Ironed! :p

Extreme Ironing, may I introduce you to my apprentice pest:

When you're in bed?

I made a baaaaaaaad pun :(

Nope. You fail at baaaaaaaad pun.
That is good pun.
This is bad fun.

Hi, I'm back from vacation...but I had no internet the whole time, so what kind of a vacation is that? :P Anyway, I am not particularly squeamish about stretching the truth sometimes. Humans are great that way.

Well the day just got better! :fluffle:
Smunkee is sad, maybe it doesn't show in the OP but it's up the page a bit.

It helps a bit that I knew he was suffering and that it was only going to get worse, at least I saved him some pain. It sucks though because he was literally the best dog ever. He even pissed on the cat of a man who was annoying me once.

Thinking of another dog? I really believe that people get better at raising a pet they like. Probably too early to think about that ... :(

she asked. I came clean, she said "you probably shouldn't tell sissy that you killed the dog"

:rolleyes:

like I don't feel bad enough.

now, it's like we have this thing in the house......lying to the 4 year old, great. :(

and my dog is dead.

my day sucks.

*hugs*

Well the day just got better! :fluffle:
Smunkee is sad, maybe it doesn't show in the OP but it's up the page a bit.

Oh noes! :( Smunkee, it's not your fault. We love you, it will be okay eventually. I hope she sees that...

It's actually been a good discussion. Sometimes the simplest questions have the most meaningful answers ... and rather amazingly no-one has mentioned God so far as I can see.

And here's a question for myself: if I'm so adamant about lying being bad for everyone, how come I actually do it? Surely it's against my own interests? It kind of seems like a bad habit that I do without wanting to ... a compulsion.

It's actually been a good discussion. Sometimes the simplest questions have the most meaningful answers ... and rather amazingly no-one has mentioned God so far as I can see.

And here's a question for myself: if I'm so adamant about lying being bad for everyone, how come I actually do it? Surely it's against my own interests? It kind of seems like a bad habit that I do without wanting to ... a compulsion.
I do a lot of things I find loathsome. I always wonder after (before, and during as well) why I don't have the self control to stop myself.

I do a lot of things I find loathsome. I always wonder after (before, and during as well) why I don't have the self control to stop myself.I figured out, oh, about 20 years ago, that I would not only regret the things I had done, but also those I did not do. So I decided to stop worrying about it. Although I occasionally regret that decision . . .

I figured out, oh, about 20 years ago, that I would not only regret the things I had done, but also those I did not do. So I decided to stop worrying about it. Although I occasionally regret that decision . . .

I don't have regrets so much as disappointments.
o_O