NationStates Jolt Archive

Why or why not?

I believe it's possible. In fact, a world where karma can determine where you start in your next life is something I consider more just than eternal damnation for actions in a finite life.

I was raised Hindu.

I really don't know, I know that what we do in this life will affect what happens in the next, but whether or not that means we'll be reincarnated into another being, or go to a good/bad place or what.

Neither in this, nor any of my previous lives.

Reincarnation? I'm not even certain I believe in Incarnation!

I believe in carnations. They're quite lovely. :)

http://www.giftbarn.co.nz/18%20mx%20carnations.jpg

Had to go with the "bah" option. :p I don't expect to be reborn any time soon.

Yes, moderately. From a sort of abstract philosophical perspective I believe in a collective human consciousness, where we go on living through the people we affect. But nothing more than that.

Reincarnation? I'm not even certain I believe in Incarnation!

I believe in carnations. They're quite lovely. :)

http://www.giftbarn.co.nz/18%20mx%20carnations.jpg

Agreed.

I believe it's possible. In fact, a world where karma can determine where you start in your next life is something I consider more just than eternal damnation for actions in a finite life.Same here.
I also consider it more just than only having one life.

I don't, but I could be wrong.

Possible, but I don't believe in it.

No. I believe that the life we are living now is all that we have, and all that we will ever have.

I don't believe there's any kind of afterlife at all. The idea was probably born from the human fear of death, and the incapability to imagine non-existence. Rationally, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever, it's a emotional crutch, nothing more.

I've put a lot of thought into this and considered all the various angles and possible ramifications and my conclusion is this:

I'd like to come back as a Koala Bear.

I wish for it not to be real, because I sure as hell don't want to come back into this world..

I wish for it not to be real, because I sure as hell don't want to come back into this world..

...but Yardley Gobion is so pretty in the Summer :(

...but Yardley Gobion is so pretty in the Summer :(

But I can't afford it!

But I can't afford it!

You could be reincarnated as a rich guy.

But then I'd be a Republican!

Michael Moore is a Republican?

You could be reincarnated as a rich guy.

But then I'd be a Republican!

Michael Moore is a Republican?

No, he's just not in the right tax bracket.

No, he's just not in the right tax bracket.

What about John Kerry, is he a Republican?

I think it is the most plausible of any life-after-death theory, and also the most agreeable.

I don't really believe in it, but I'd like it to be true.

But I can't afford it!

This makes Yardley Gobion cry :(

What about John Kerry, is he a Republican?
His wife is the rich one, and she's a Fascist.
This makes Yardley Gobion cry :(

Bollocks!

Bollocks!

Indeed, YG laughs in the face of poverty

Reincarnation?

It's about as plausible as any other option.

I'm crossing my fingers for Siberian Tiger or Killer Whale myself. :)

Indeed, YG laughs in the face of poverty

Qiute truely.

nope. seriously, think about it for a minute. If there's reincarnation, where are all the extra souls coming from? 1000 years ago there was less a billion people in the world. Now's there's 6.5 Bill. Where did the other 5.5Bill souls come from?
answer me that!

Qiute truely.

Well I think we've managed to kill this thread quite truly, given it's NSG however, it'll likely be reincarnated in various forms for many years to come

nope. seriously, think about it for a minute. If there's reincarnation, where are all the extra souls coming from? 1000 years ago there was less a billion people in the world. Now's there's 6.5 Bill. Where did the other 5.5Bill souls come from?
answer me that!

Hullo logic, meet reincarnation and prepare to meet thy doom

nope. seriously, think about it for a minute. If there's reincarnation, where are all the extra souls coming from? 1000 years ago there was less a billion people in the world. Now's there's 6.5 Bill. Where did the other 5.5Bill souls come from?
answer me that!

You're also forgetting that animal's soul can be reincarnated into humans or vice versa.

Why or why not?

No. I don't believe this religious stuff. But I won't explain why.

God, gods, saints, reincarnation, resurrection, etc, etc. There are no facts supporting religious stuff; there is no logical proof leading to the reality of the religious stuff - including the belief in the non-existance of deities.
To sum it up, logics can't be applied to metareligion (the thing that defines religion). Of course, a religion could be logically consistent within its own postulates (or dogmata), but this wouldn't say anything about the validity of the postulates, because all theorems are a form of tautology.

That is, either you admit it isn't rational AND still believe; or you admit it isn't rational AND do not believe.

So, explaining why a person believes or not, is a waste of time, because no final argument can be given about it. Period.

nope. seriously, think about it for a minute. If there's reincarnation, where are all the extra souls coming from? 1000 years ago there was less a billion people in the world. Now's there's 6.5 Bill. Where did the other 5.5Bill souls come from?
answer me that!
http://aboutmyrecovery.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/sex_education.gif
Well I think we've managed to kill this thread quite truly, given it's NSG however, it'll likely be reincarnated in various forms for many years to come

When will we see the next incarnation?!

nope. seriously, think about it for a minute. If there's reincarnation, where are all the extra souls coming from? 1000 years ago there was less a billion people in the world. Now's there's 6.5 Bill. Where did the other 5.5Bill souls come from?
answer me that!

They already existed. One incarnation doesn't necessarily come immediately after another.

I don't believe there's any kind of afterlife at all. The idea was probably born from the human fear of death, and the incapability to imagine non-existence. Rationally, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever, it's a emotional crutch, nothing more.

Yup.

Yes, because I personally believe my soul still holds a fragment of a past life that affects me deeply today.

i was born remembering adulthood on a world that was very definately NOT this earth. a tangable solid everyday sort of world and not some sort of mystical mumbo jumbo either. i wasn't born remembering what people looked like, but i can tell you it's never felt quite 'right' having only two arms and only two legs.

=^^=
.../\...

i was born remembering adulthood on a world that was very definately NOT this earth. a tangable solid everyday sort of world and not some sort of mystical mumbo jumbo either. i wasn't born remembering what people looked like, but i can tell you it's never felt quite 'right' having only two arms and only two legs.

=^^=
.../\...

Are you an otherkin, by chance?

I had to choose the "yes, moderately", since I don't believe in heaven or hell after death, but I believe there's something - call it a soul or a spirit or a life-force, whatever you want - in everything living. Although I'm technically a Christian (haven't yet bothered to quit the church), I have to lean in to Hinduism direction here. So far the Karmic Cycle makes most sense to me. ^_^

I wish for it not to be real, because I sure as hell don't want to come back into this world..

What if you were simply born back into this universe and not to this particular place and time? Wouldn't you want to be born on another planet somewhere out there? Or in the far future, maybe? I certainly would. :D

I'm crossing my fingers for Siberian Tiger or Killer Whale myself. :)

You better be extra nice in this life, then, to maximize your chances. :p I'm hoping for a bird next/again. ;)

You're also forgetting that animal's soul can be reincarnated into humans or vice versa.

Um, I don't think the two are any different. Humans are animals too... :rolleyes:

You're also forgetting that animal's soul can be reincarnated into humans or vice versa.

The more I see you post, the more I like you.

Yes, because I personally believe my soul still holds a fragment of a past life that affects me deeply today.

I think that in my past life I was a bird (how the hell else would I know how to operate all those damn feathers to fly - before there were any fancy science documents on TV to show people how?) and before that a dolphin (ditto for organic sonar), but I don't know if there's an end (if you want a word for it, Nirvana works) to the cycle or if it's eternal.

I think that in my past life I was a bird (how the hell else would I know how to operate all those damn feathers to fly - before there were any fancy science documents on TV to show people how?) and before that a dolphin (ditto for organic sonar), but I don't know if there's an end (if you want a word for it, Niravana works) to the cycle or if it's eternal.

Cool. :D I believe I still hold some portion of my life as a Red-Tailed Hawk in me.. A life I hope to return to after this one ends.

I believe I still hold some portion of my life as a Red-Tailed Hawk in me.

Yikes. :eek: The two of us seem to be species-mates for the second time in a row. :D

I'm hoping to go back to a bird too... can't stand not being able to fly in this life. :mad:

Yikes. :eek: The two of us seem to be species-mates for the second time in a row. :D

I'm hoping to go back to a bird too... can't stand not being able to fly in this life. :mad:

Ditto.. I also kinda hate being part of humanity because of the damage they do to bird life as a whole. It feels sort of like I'm on the wrong side of a war. :x

But the fact that hawks are soaring birds makes me think I should try hang gliding some time. It looks amazingly fun.

Are you an otherkin, by chance?

i suppose that's one way of looking at it, though when i was born here, it was very much in the usual manor. but yes, i've been on otherkin lists and sites and so on. i haven't actively visited any in ages.

i would also mention, for those who raised the issue of not finding the concept 'after' lives neccessary compelling, reincarnation does not by any means require them in any sense. the awairness, upon the loss of a functioning life form with which to interact with our tangable universe, might well simple, for all practical purposes, cease existing, untill, unpredictably later and as to where, being once again born, somewhere, somewhen, on some quite ordinary and solid world, they are born in whatever usual manor such things on that world take place.

serial mortality, in other words, no mystical whateverism required.

on the other hand, there COULD just as well be a few jolly r&r stops in between. i wouldn't attempt certainty on that score, either way.

just as awarenessess without physical form, while not required to exist, are equally by no means, required not to.

=^^=
.../\...

I should try hang gliding some time. It looks amazingly fun.

In this life I fear heights because I can't fly... >_<

...and because whenever in a high place, I get this near-irresistible urge to spread my wings and jump. >_>

In this life I fear heights because I can't fly... >_<

...and because whenever in a high place, I get this near-irresistible urge to spread my wings and jump. >_>

I used to be afraid of heights, but I'm not really now.. Except when, yes, I get the urge to jump.

Edit: Oops, this is Mirkai.

i was born remembering adulthood on a world that was very definately NOT this earth. a tangable solid everyday sort of world and not some sort of mystical mumbo jumbo either. i wasn't born remembering what people looked like, but i can tell you it's never felt quite 'right' having only two arms and only two legs.

=^^=
.../\...

Question: how do you remember this? These memories are in your brain, obviously. At what point did these memories somehow get transported into your brain cells? Was it while you were still a sperm, or an embryo, or what? I'm seriously interested in your explanation...

I think so. It makes sense and I've read some accounts (not past-life regression...I'm as skeptical of that as anyone else) of things related to reincarnation that have convinced me it happens.

When will we see the next incarnation?!

Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon...and for the rest of your life

Alas report of this thread's death are greatly exaggerated

I quite like the idea of it, to a finite point, but just thinking about the numbers involved (far more people alive today than ever before, how could all be reincarnated from previous lives) makes the whole thing very implausible.

I quite like the idea of it, to a finite point, but just thinking about the numbers involved (far more people alive today than ever before, how could all be reincarnated from previous lives) makes the whole thing very implausible.

Actually, more people aren't alive today than ever before. In fact, I think it's about anywhere from 20-120 billion dead to 7 billion living or some similarly huge number; I don't even know if it's possible for us to catch up even at current growth rates.

But then again, what's to stop new souls from being created? They had to have been at some point, and of course it's possible that we could simply be getting them from somewhere else. The universe is a lot bigger than just people...

Do you believe in reincarnation? Why or why not?
No. Because I have no reason to believe in reincarnation.

Actually, more people aren't alive today than ever before. In fact, I think it's about anywhere from 20-120 billion dead to 7 billion living or some similarly huge number; I don't even know if it's possible for us to catch up even at current growth rates.

But then again, what's to stop new souls from being created? They had to have been at some point, and of course it's possible that we could simply be getting them from somewhere else. The universe is a lot bigger than just people...

I meant the number alive at any one point in time, not a cumulative.

No. I believe that the life we are living now is all that we have, and all that we will ever have.

Then you believe that the universe is fundemantally unjust since you believe some people will only have a rich healthy life in a Western country while some others will only have a starving life with AIDS in Africa. Similarly, you believe some people will only have 110 years (Japaneese women) while some others will have only couple of days (baby deaths). Your outlook is sad.

I meant the number alive at any one point in time, not a cumulative.

I mean the number of cumulative dead is greater than the number alive at any given time; a lot more people have died than are alive today.

Then you believe that the universe is fundamentally unjust since you believe some people will only have a rich healthy life in a Western country while some others will only have a starving life with AIDS in Africa. Similarly, you believe some people will only have 110 years (Japanese women) while some others will have only couple of days (baby deaths). Your outlook is sad.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the universe has no fundamental concept of justice at all - life just is - it's not a sad outlook, it's a realistic one.

Then you believe that the universe is fundemantally unjust since you believe some people will only have a rich healthy life in a Western country while some others will only have a starving life with AIDS in Africa. Similarly, you believe some people will only have 110 years (Japaneese women) while some others will have only couple of days (baby deaths). Your outlook is sad.

You know. Justice is a human concept.
Compared to the Earth, humans are less than mosquitoes compared to humans. Compared to the Universe, the Earth is less than a neutrino compared to a human.
To sum it up: compared to the Universe, humans are nothing.
Do you think that the Universe "cares" about human concepts?
Yes, the world isn't just or fair, nor is the Universe.

Then you believe that the universe is fundemantally unjust since you believe some people will only have a rich healthy life in a Western country while some others will only have a starving life with AIDS in Africa. Similarly, you believe some people will only have 110 years (Japaneese women) while some others will have only couple of days (baby deaths). Your outlook is sad.
It's got nothing to do with "just" or "unjust."

It's true, the universe doesn't personally care about any of us. It's true, life isn't fair. Some people are born to plenty and safety, others to poverty and constant jeopardy.

But "justice" is about administering deserved punishment or reward. Somebody who is born rich and safe isn't being "rewarded" for anything. They're just lucky. Somebody born poor and sickly isn't being punished for anything. They're unlucky.

For the universe to be "just" or "unjust" you must first assume that the universe is handing out fates based on some standard of reward and punishment. I see no reason to assume that.

nope. seriously, think about it for a minute. If there's reincarnation, where are all the extra souls coming from? 1000 years ago there was less a billion people in the world. Now's there's 6.5 Bill. Where did the other 5.5Bill souls come from?
answer me that!

New souls? Reincarnation does not necessitate that there are constant number of souls. Or maybe they are the souls of animals or aliens, I dont know, could be anything. Or not.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the universe has no fundamental concept of justice at all - life just is - it's not a sad outlook, it's a realistic one.

Based in what evidence is it realistic? I find it irrationally overconfident and presumptuous in to think our knowledge of the universe or our place in it is anything even remotely close to realistic.

I mean, who are we to presume what the universe is or isn't, let alone its teleology or lack thereof? We're nothing on a galactic scale, let alone the universe, which contains forces and worlds so utterly alien to us that we have a hard time imagining them, let alone deciding what their purpose is. How can beings so limited make such haughty claims as to what the universe is or isn't?

New souls? Reincarnation does not necessitate that there are constant number of souls. Or maybe they are the souls of animals or aliens, I dont know, could be anything. Or not.

Not to mention we don't know if the universal population is continually growing or remaining constant.

Hard to say, really. It's one of those entertaining philisophical sandboxes: fun to play in, but stick around to long and the sand starts to irritate.

No. I don't believe this religious stuff. But I won't explain why.

God, gods, saints, reincarnation, resurrection, etc, etc. There are no facts supporting religious stuff; there is no logical proof leading to the reality of the religious stuff - including the belief in the non-existance of deities.
To sum it up, logics can't be applied to metareligion (the thing that defines religion). Of course, a religion could be logically consistent within its own postulates (or dogmata), but this wouldn't say anything about the validity of the postulates, because all theorems are a form of tautology.

That is, either you admit it isn't rational AND still believe; or you admit it isn't rational AND do not believe.

So, explaining why a person believes or not, is a waste of time, because no final argument can be given about it. Period.

No final argument can not be given about most things. But people still discuss. This is a very basic phenomenon. Period. I'm surprised you didnt know that.

nope. seriously, think about it for a minute. If there's reincarnation, where are all the extra souls coming from? 1000 years ago there was less a billion people in the world. Now's there's 6.5 Bill. Where did the other 5.5Bill souls come from?
answer me that!

There could just be an infinite number of souls to draw from...not that difficult a problem, and one I'm pretty sure the mathematically astute peoples of India and China have long since resolved. Besides, there are more worlds than our own to draw from.

Even so, the number of people dead still vastly outnumbers the people alive.

Based in what evidence is it realistic? I find it irrationally overconfident and presumptuous in to think our knowledge of the universe or our place in it is anything even remotely close to realistic.

I mean, who are we to presume what the universe is or isn't, let alone its teleology or lack thereof? We're nothing on a galactic scale, let alone the universe, which contains forces and worlds so utterly alien to us that we have a hard time imagining them, let alone deciding what their purpose is. How can beings so limited make such haughty claims as to what the universe is or isn't?

When the aliens come I'm sure I'll be first up against the wall - though I always laughed at the California gym that advertised 'when the aliens come they'll eat the fat people first'

I didn't call someone sad for thinking reincarnation was unlikely.

I make no presumptions about the universe at all, I live my life according to my experiences and observations. I certainly don't believe the 'universe' has a thought on the matter.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the universe has no fundamental concept of justice at all - life just is - it's not a sad outlook, it's a realistic one.

Life cant be just "is". Given the complexity of universe, you expect more....

You know. Justice is a human concept.
Compared to the Earth, humans are less than mosquitoes compared to humans. Compared to the Universe, the Earth is less than a neutrino compared to a human.
To sum it up: compared to the Universe, humans are nothing.


Claim: humans cant understand universe.


Do you think that the Universe "cares" about human concepts?
Yes, the world isn't just or fair, nor is the Universe.

Nor is the Universe? That means you claim to understand the universe. And you are a human

Result: Contradiction

Life cant be just "is". Given the complexity of universe, you expect more....

You're anthropomorphizing both the universe and life. Do you think they have thoughts?

It's got nothing to do with "just" or "unjust."

It's true, the universe doesn't personally care about any of us. It's true, life isn't fair. Some people are born to plenty and safety, others to poverty and constant jeopardy.

But "justice" is about administering deserved punishment or reward. Somebody who is born rich and safe isn't being "rewarded" for anything. They're just lucky. Somebody born poor and sickly isn't being punished for anything. They're unlucky.

For the universe to be "just" or "unjust" you must first assume that the universe is handing out fates based on some standard of reward and punishment. I see no reason to assume that.

You have no proof of this, have you? It's just what you believe.

When the aliens come I'm sure I'll be first up against the wall - though I always laughed at the California gym that advertised 'when the aliens come they'll eat the fat people first'

Either that, or the machines...but I kind of hope for them instead of aliens since I'm pretty much planning to be on the same team, if you know what I mean.

I didn't call someone sad for thinking reincarnation was unlikely.

And I didn't say you did.:) All I questioned was the idea that your position was the realistic one, when in fact it really isn't any more realistic if we get in to it. More empirical, sure, but the most empirical belief isn't necessarily the best or correct one in any situation.

I make no presumptions about the universe at all, I live my life according to my experiences and observations. I certainly don't believe the 'universe' has a thought on the matter.

And I realize how limited my knowledge of this world is, so why should I worry about things I probably couldn't understand even if I wanted to? There's plenty of good stuff out there that doesn't require the vagaries of the universe or its purpose to enjoy.

You're anthropomorphizing both the universe and life. Do you think they have thoughts?

I dont know. Maybe or maybe not. Our physical observations are very limited. We arent even sure why there is gravity. Gravity, for god's sake...

I dont know. Maybe or maybe not. Our physical observations are very limited. We arent even sure why there is gravity. Gravity, for god's sake...

Yes, but we can base our life on it.

Reincarnation was created because of the fear of death, i believe their is no afterlife; we just create one because the fear of the unknown is a powerful, driving fear. But i do believe in karma, as affecting you not in an afterlife ( if you have one) but in your near future. The way one acts one day will affect him later on.

Yes, but we can base our life on it.

But we dont even understand something so concrete and which our species has been living with for millions of years, since from the start. That's the point. I guess I'm mirroring the arguments of Vetalia.

But we dont even understand something so concrete and which our species has been living with for millions of years, since from the start. That's the point. I guess I'm mirroring the arguments of Vetalia.

Yet we can observe, make valid predictions, base both our lives on and, to nod to Vetalia, base mechanics on it.

I can see how I might make judgments based on that and call it realistic - perhaps I'm mad m'lud?

I can't say reincarnation absolutely does not exist but I can pretty much live my life without having to believe in it, and that's not sad, I'd say it's realistic.

Depends on one's definition of 'real' and 'realistic' I suppose.

You have no proof of this, have you? It's just what you believe.
I'm a scientist. I'm not in the business of proving anything.

I dont know. Maybe or maybe not. Our physical observations are very limited. We arent even sure why there is gravity. Gravity, for god's sake...
Argument from personal ignorance. Invalid.

I'm a scientist. I'm not in the business of proving anything.

Do you have any data to support your hypothesis then?

Argument from personal ignorance. Invalid.

You mean species ignorance.

But we dont even understand something so concrete and which our species has been living with for millions of years, since from the start. That's the point. I guess I'm mirroring the arguments of Vetalia.
Again, speak for yourself.

Some of us are capable of observing that the sky is blue, and are also capable of understanding valid explanations of why the sky is blue.

Just because you, personally, don't happen to know the answer to something doesn't mean that the answer isn't out there.

Do you have any data to support your hypothesis then?
See: human history, all cultures, all locations.

Again, speak for yourself.

Some of us are capable of observing that the sky is blue, and are also capable of understanding valid explanations of why the sky is blue.

Just because you, personally, don't happen to know the answer to something doesn't mean that the answer isn't out there.

Again, I dont have to speak for myself, when neither of any member of humanity fully understands gravity, unless there is an unpublished "truth" at work...

See: human history, all cultures, all locations.

Inconclusive since we are talking about universal scale.

Again, I dont have to speak for myself, when neither of any member of humanity fully understands gravity, unless there is an unpublished "truth" at work...

Why not go and jump off a building - I suspect, halfway down, you'll 'fully' understand gravity.

Come on, don't be obscure :(

Why not go and jump off a building - I suspect, halfway down, you'll 'fully' understand gravity.

Come on, don't be obscure :(

We know that there is gravity, yeah. It's so obvious. But we cant explain why. Hence we dont understand fully.

Inconclusive since we are talking about universal scale.
Remember, this is science. We don't prove, we disprove. Virtually all of human experience and recorded human history is directly inconsistent with the hypothesis that there is anthropomorphic intelligence dictating individual human futures based on "justice" as we humans understand it. We have ample reason to reject that hypothesis.

There are some parts of human experience which do not directly refute the above hypothesis, but these portions are also still consistent with the null hypothesis.

So we have a lot of neutral evidence, and then a pile of evidence that refutes the hypothesis.

We also have The Infamous Razor. We have no reason to assume there is an anthropomorphic intelligence running the universe, and said intelligence is not remotely necessary to explain anything that we have encountered so far. Furthermore, assuming the existence of such an intelligence does absolutely nothing for us. It generates no helpful information. It's just something people like to assume because it feels good.

Anyhow, we're off track. You asserted that one must believe in an "unjust" universe because of the number of people who, by chance, are born into suffering or into great status. My entire point was refuting THAT claim. It is entirely possible to have bad things happen to good people without it being "unjust," it's just a mistake or an accident or lousy luck. Justice is about CONSCIOUS meting out of consequences.

If you believe that every single thing which happens to all people everywhere is specifically directed and intentionally applied, then I'd say you're the one living a sad existence. If you think something is consciously condemning babies to be shaken to death, that's a pretty fucking sick universe you live in.

I mean the number of cumulative dead is greater than the number alive at any given time; a lot more people have died than are alive today.

I know what you meant, but you didn't understand my comment. Assuming people can be reincarnated infinite times and only a fraction ever escape the cycle, therefore, as there were less alive at the beginning, that number couldn't have been reincarnated multiple times at once to create the population growth that has happened. Either, new 'souls' have been created or the belief is not possible.

*snip* Either, new 'souls' have been created or the belief is not possible.

You're saying something definitive about something of which nothing definitive can be said.

I know what you meant, but you didn't understand my comment. Assuming people can be reincarnated infinite times and only a fraction ever escape the cycle, therefore, as there were less alive at the beginning, that number couldn't have been reincarnated multiple times at once to create the population growth that has happened. Either, new 'souls' have been created or the belief is not possible.

Doesn't that assume that humans are reincarnated as humans or that everyone began the whole reincarnation cycle as humans?

Remember, this is science. We don't prove, we disprove. Virtually all of human experience and recorded human history is directly inconsistent with the hypothesis that there is anthropomorphic intelligence dictating individual human futures based on "justice" as we humans understand it. We have ample reason to reject that hypothesis.


Where have I made that claim? I didnt. But I just want to say "Virtually all of human experience and recorded human history" is not enough to disprove "that there is anthropomorphic intelligence dictating individual human futures based on "justice" as we humans understand it", since that intelligence exists on a level we do not understand. You can neither disprove nor prove, "I have no fucking idea" is the scientific answer here.


There are some parts of human experience which do not directly refute the above hypothesis, but these portions are also still consistent with the null hypothesis.

So we have a lot of neutral evidence, and then a pile of evidence that refutes the hypothesis.

We also have The Infamous Razor. We have no reason to assume there is an anthropomorphic intelligence running the universe, and said intelligence is not remotely necessary to explain anything that we have encountered so far. Furthermore, assuming the existence of such an intelligence does absolutely nothing for us. It generates no helpful information. It's just something people like to assume because it feels good.

Anyhow, we're off track. You asserted that one must believe in an "unjust" universe because of the number of people who, by chance, are born into suffering or into great status. My entire point was refuting THAT claim.


I still dont see how you refuted it. Just because there is some data which is inconsistent with just universe hypothesis does not disprove that hypothesis because that data is too small on a universal scale. It's like psychologists trying to disprove a hypothesis about all humanity just by observing one person. And your data certainly does not prove unjust universe thingie. So to say that universe is unjust is just a belief as well, one that I believe is a result of personal experiences just like you claim that "just" universe feels more comfy.


It is entirely possible to have bad things happen to good people without it being "unjust," it's just a mistake or an accident or lousy luck. Justice is about CONSCIOUS meting out of consequences.

If you believe that every single thing which happens to all people everywhere is specifically directed and intentionally applied, then I'd say you're the one living a sad existence. If you think something is consciously condemning babies to be shaken to death, that's a pretty fucking sick universe you live in.

Well, if you have a trillion lives, certainly you wouldnt care much about being shaken to death as a baby in one of them. On the other hand, if you think that some people will ONLY have a life as a baby who died being shaken to that, I think THAT'S pretty fucking sick. And people go thru lots of pain, I'd like to think that's for a reason. To think it's just the result of a mistake or an accident or lousy luck is also pretty fucking sick and nihilist. A child touches something hot and it hurts and that child LEARNS not to touch hot objects again. I think that's a better way at looking things rather than saying, it hurt, huh? Tough luck...

What reason is there to believe in reincarnation? (this is not a rhetorical question).

Hindu texts and Buddhists texts.

You asked for a reason, not a "good" reason.

Does that mean there is no good reason?

What reason is there to believe in reincarnation? (this is not a rhetorical question).

Hindu texts and Buddhists texts.

You asked for a reason, not a "good" reason.

Does that mean there is no good reason?

I can't really think of one. Is there a good reason to believe that people go to heaven or hell when they die?

I can't really think of one. Is there a good reason to believe that people go to heaven or hell when they die?

Not logically. But often like with belief in the afterlife, does belief in reincarnation occur with some sort of supernatural experience?

Doesn't that assume that humans are reincarnated as humans or that everyone began the whole reincarnation cycle as humans?

Even including animals, its only really humans that have had unregulated population growth.

Not logically. But often like with belief in the afterlife, does belief in reincarnation occur with some sort of supernatural experience?

Well I'd say most Hindus nowadays who believe in reincarnation believe in it because of some personal experience that affirmed their belief in Hinduism, and reincarnation naturally followed (because it is part of Hindu beliefs).

That's of course the people who have actually thought about their beliefs, as opposed to the people who (just like many Christians) are just Hindus because their parents were.

Do I believe in reincarnation? No.

On the very surface, the suggestion of reincarnation is nothing but an arbitrary claim, one made without any supporting evidence.

Closer inspection reveals that not only does the notion lack evidence but runs counter to a number of fundamental metaphysical concepts including that of consciousness and identity.

In short, reincarnation is as foolish a notion as all manner of magic and mysticism.

Well I'd say most Hindus nowadays who believe in reincarnation believe in it because of some personal experience that affirmed their belief in Hinduism, and reincarnation naturally followed (because it is part of Hindu beliefs).

That's of course the people who have actually thought about their beliefs, as opposed to the people who (just like many Christians) are just Hindus because their parents were.

So why do so many people in NSG believe in reincarnation, when so many of them are either athiest or christian. There surely can't be that many hindus or buddhists.

So why do so many people in NSG believe in reincarnation, when so many of them are either athiest or christian. There surely can't be that many hindus or buddhists.

Well, I can't really speak for them, and I was, as stated before, raised Hindu.

No, not really - but I wouldn't completely rule it out either.

How did Iron Maiden put it?

Infinite dreams I can't deny them
Infinity is hard to comprehend
I couldn't hear those screams
Even in my wildest dreams

Suffocation waking in a sweat
Scared to fall asleep again
Incase the dream begins again
Someone chasing I cannot move
Standing rigid nightmare's statue
What a dream when will it end
And will I transcend?

Restless sleep the minds in turmoil
One nightmare ends another fertile
Getting to me so scared to sleep
But scared to wake now, in too deep

Even though its reached new heights
I rather like the restless nights
It makes me wonder it makes me think
There's more to this I'm on the brink
It's not the fear of what's beyond
It's just that I might not respond
I have an interest almost craving
But would I like to get too far in?

It can't be all coincidence
Too many things are evident
You tell me you're an unbeliever
Spiritualist? Well me I'm neither
But wouldn't you like to know
The truth
Of what's out there to have the proof
And find out just which side
You're on
Where would you end in Heaven or
In Hell?

Help me. Help me to find my true
Self without seeing the future
Save me, save me from torturing
Myself even within my dreams

There's got to be just more to it
Than this
Or tell me why do we exist
I'd like to think that when I die
I'd get a chance another time
And to return and live again
Reincarnate, play the game
Again and again and again

Yet we can observe, make valid predictions, base both our lives on and, to nod to Vetalia, base mechanics on it.

Yes, but there are plenty of times when something that works breaks down at a different scale; classical physics works on a more or less human scale, but it falls completely and utterly apart at the quantum or universal levels. It's just wrong at those scales, and each of those three scales is inherently contradictory.

And string theory itself is radically different from those three, which makes things even more confusing because you have a fundamental theory producing radically different effects at different scales. So, even if our observations suggest something works, that's hardly a guarantee that that's a universal property of the universe or anywhere near reality.

hmmm

so my judeo christian SOUL gets reincarnated in a hindu/buddhist system?

kinda mixing metaphors isnt it?

i dont have a problem with reincarnation as a hindu concept, not that i really understand it. i have a problem with the mechanism of transfer. when i die just HOW is this remnant of myself going to get into another creature? who decides where i end up? its not random eh? is it automated somehow?

i really dont like the idea that *I* get punished for something someone else did. (not that my life is much of a punishment but other people's lves are). couldnt that last guy have just gone on to someone else's body and I get a better outcome?

hmmm

so my judeo christian SOUL gets reincarnated in a hindu/buddhist system?

kinda mixing metaphors isnt it?

i dont have a problem with reincarnation as a hindu concept, not that i really understand it. i have a problem with the mechanism of transfer. when i die just HOW is this remnant of myself going to get into another creature? who decides where i end up? its not random eh? is it automated somehow?

i really dont like the idea that *I* get punished for something someone else did. (not that my life is much of a punishment but other people's lves are). couldnt that last guy have just gone on to someone else's body and I get a better outcome?

I honestly wish I knew and remembered enough about Hinduism to answer that.

I honestly wish I knew and remembered enough about Hinduism to answer that.

me too.

everything i know about hinduism i learned from reading alan watts books 25 years ago. not exactly orthodox hinduism.

im skeptical of people who pick and choose bits and pieces of various religions and twist them to fit some cool idea of how things should be. so this notion that my soul moves from life to life is neither hindu nor christian.

In my opinion reincarnation is false even if it is true. If it is true it only means that the essence a lifeform's soul is now made of used to make up the souls of other lifeforms that are now dead. In the same way as the material that a lifeform's body is now made of used to make up the bodies of other lifeforms that are now dead. That the material in your body used to be other lifeforms that you have now eaten does not mean you have lived another life as your food before. In the same way, that your soul is made of essence that another lifeform's soul was made of before does not mean you have lived another life as that lifeform.

The only case where I would say that a person has lived another life before the current one is if the person remembers the previous life. And we don't remember previous lives so therefore we have not lived previous lives even if soul essence from previous lifeforms is recycled.


There is also the moral issue that if one believes that we are reborn according to actions in previous lives then one can extend that to consider racism and discrimination a form of justice. People who where born as Jews in Nazi Germany must have done something horrible in a previous life (like being a Nazi) to deserve that fate. People who where born into slavery must have done something in a previous life they should pay for by spending one life as slaves. People who where born as women in a discriminating culture must have done too little good in a previous life to deserve nothing more then that humble position. People who where born as princes must have done so many wonderful things in a previous life nobody should question if they deserve to be kings with complete power.

It's a nice idea, but I can't really think of any reason to believe it might be real.

There is also the moral issue that if one believes that we are reborn according to actions in previous lives then one can extend that to consider racism and discrimination a form of justice. People who where born as Jews in Nazi Germany must have done something horrible in a previous life (like being a Nazi) to deserve that fate. People who where born into slavery must have done something in a previous life they should pay for by spending one life as slaves. People who where born as women in a discriminating culture must have done too little good in a previous life to deserve nothing more then that humble position. People who where born as princes must have done so many wonderful things in a previous life nobody should question if they deserve to be kings with complete power.

yeah that part is very hard for me to get past. im wondering if thats how people get treated in areas where reincarnation is standard belief.

The only case where I would say that a person has lived another life before the current one is if the person remembers the previous life. And we don't remember previous lives so therefore we have not lived previous lives even if soul essence from previous lifeforms is recycled.

There is also the moral issue that if one believes that we are reborn according to actions in previous lives then one can extend that to consider racism and discrimination a form of justice.


Huh? If karma things like actions, and preferences are retained within the soul, how is that not reincarnation?
All of who you are from previous lives is still there. It's not all erased.
Remembering all ones previous lives would drive most people mad.

Huh? If karma things like actions, and preferences are retained within the soul, how is that not reincarnation?
All of who you are from previous lives is still there. It's not all erased.
Remembering all ones previous lives would drive most people mad.
First I said that I don't think I have lived previous lives before this one. Then I said that those who do believe so could use it as an argument to justify discrimination. Since I said I don't believe so the two separate statements have nothing to do with each other.

My food argument works even with karma. When you inherit matter from your food you can also inherit a sort of karma from your food in a way. If your food is fat you get fat. If you eat an animal that died from poison or disease you risk inheriting that animal's mistake and die from the same poison. If you consume a plant that produced narcotics that can affect you too. But that does not mean you have lived a previous life as your food.

So if you inherit spiritual matter from a previous lifeform through reincarnation it in the same way does not mean you have lived a previous life as that lifeform even if the spiritual matter includes side effects in the form of karma.

If you remember previous lives that would make them your experiences. And as you say drive you mad. But otherwise I don't think you have lived previous lives even if reincarnation of spiritual matter with karma side effects is true.

Don't know but I'll let you know what happens.

I can't say one way or another. Anything is possible I suppose. Now if I were omniscient or remembered a past life I could probably give you a more definite answer, but don't hold me to that.

You have no proof of this, have you? It's just what you believe.

Did you read this thread's headline? :p

No, I don't have any proof of reincarnation happening other than my very subjective experiences on a few things.

No, I don't have any proof of reincarnation not happening either.

So yes, I choose to believe reincarnation is a possibility.

As for those that keep going on about the number of souls - why wouldn't it be possible that whenever "we" run out of usable souls, new ones couldn't be born? Or if animals and humans have common souls (like I prefer to think), all the animals we kill (like the global depletion of the fish stocks) could well be reborn as humans. And vice versa. :)

Possible. Unlikely.

In my opinion reincarnation is false even if it is true. If it is true it only means that the essence a lifeform's soul is now made of used to make up the souls of other lifeforms that are now dead. In the same way as the material that a lifeform's body is now made of used to make up the bodies of other lifeforms that are now dead. That the material in your body used to be other lifeforms that you have now eaten does not mean you have lived another life as your food before. In the same way, that your soul is made of essence that another lifeform's soul was made of before does not mean you have lived another life as that lifeform.

The only case where I would say that a person has lived another life before the current one is if the person remembers the previous life. And we don't remember previous lives so therefore we have not lived previous lives even if soul essence from previous lifeforms is recycled....


If you believe in an eternal soul, then why not to the soul remembering everything? Yeah, people dont remember previous lives but their souls may, after death and before rebirth?

Yes, but there are plenty of times when something that works breaks down at a different scale; classical physics works on a more or less human scale, but it falls completely and utterly apart at the quantum or universal levels. It's just wrong at those scales, and each of those three scales is inherently contradictory.

And string theory itself is radically different from those three, which makes things even more confusing because you have a fundamental theory producing radically different effects at different scales. So, even if our observations suggest something works, that's hardly a guarantee that that's a universal property of the universe or anywhere near reality.

I'm not sure we're getting radically different results because of radically different rules though.

Take crowd dynamics - how an individual walks through a stadium or reacts to an event is very different from how a crowd walks.... or reacts.... - the same forces apply among each individual but the crowd can seem to be a completely different beast.

I'd say, though I can't say for sure, that gravity is a constant throughout the universe for those things with sufficient mass, where gravity becomes the over-riding factor.

Why or why not?

Nah. No proof. I can, however, joke about it, because I'm Hindu by descent.

eehhhhhhhh, who cares, we're all gonna find out sooner or later. am i right? even if you dont believe in an after-life or an after-life place-to-go-based-on-god's-descision place, you could be wrong. but we will all find out eventually. my advise is to stop thinking about death and start to focus on making you LIFE better.

Nah. No proof. I can, however, joke about it, because I'm Hindu by descent.

Cheers, kiddo.

Cheers, kiddo.

Don't drink. You'll make baby Vishnu cry. :p

Don't drink. You'll make baby Vishnu cry. :p

Well then he's been weeping for a couple of years now. :D

nope. seriously, think about it for a minute. If there's reincarnation, where are all the extra souls coming from? 1000 years ago there was less a billion people in the world. Now's there's 6.5 Bill. Where did the other 5.5Bill souls come from?
answer me that!

The Hindu belief system has infinite Universes and infinite atma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atman_%28Hinduism%29)'s.....

And other life forms take birth into human life forms as per their karmic position.

The Hindu belief system has infinite Universes and infinite atma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atman_%28Hinduism%29)'s....there's.

And other life forms take birth into human life forms as per their karmic position.

Thank you! *hugs*

Someone who actually knows what their talking about on Hindu beliefs.

I can relax now...

Hullo logic, meet reincarnation and prepare to meet thy doom

Beats saying "there must be a reason why God does that...but we don't know"

Well then he's been weeping for a couple of years now. :D

Yeah, I know. Baby Vishnu's a stiff (This (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/showbiz/showbiznews.html?in_article_id=448932&in_page_id=1773) makes him cry. And despite the fact that the Mail said it, it's true.) But who worries?

Question to those who dead-set believe in the soul and the after-life/reincarnation: what (good) proof do you have of any of these?

hmmm

so my judeo christian SOUL gets reincarnated in a hindu/buddhist system?

Depends. To put it crudely, what you desire - what you deserve.


i have a problem with the mechanism of transfer. when i die just HOW is this remnant of myself going to get into another creature? who decides where i end up? its not random eh? is it automated somehow?

Karmic laws are natural. Just like how Newton's "every action has an equal and opposite reaction" is a natural law for the physical world, karmic laws are natural for the spiritual world.


i really dont like the idea that *I* get punished for something someone else did. (not that my life is much of a punishment but other people's lves are). couldnt that last guy have just gone on to someone else's body and I get a better outcome?

Nobody is free from their karma. Mahabaratha and Ramayana speak of incarnated deities also having to undergo their karma.

* - I am speaking for Hindu belief systems, these are not necessarily my exact beliefs.

Yes, strongly. In Hellraising we believe that people are reincanated as rocks. As evidence, consider the fact that nearly every time someone dies, a rock rises up out of the ground near where they were finally laid to rest. The size, shape, and decoration of the rock is determined by how well the person lived his/her life. Our theory is further enhanced by the fact that the rocks often display the name of a given person, thus clearly marking it as a reincarnated soul.

Yes, strongly. In Hellraising we believe that people are reincanated as rocks. As evidence, consider the fact that nearly every time someone dies, a rock rises up out of the ground near where they were finally laid to rest. The size, shape, and decoration of the rock is determined by how well the person lived his/her life. Our theory is further enhanced by the fact that the rocks often display the name of a given person, thus clearly marking it as a reincarnated soul.

Sounds like a reasonable conservative perspective.

Sounds like a reasonable conservative perspective.

In Hellraising we don't like to politicize issues like this. Support bipartisanship. In the words of one of our great liberal statesmen: "I'll hug your elephant if you kiss my ass." What more needs to be said about working together for the common good?

In Hellraising we don't like to politicize issues like this. Support bipartisanship. In the words of one of our great liberal statesmen: "I'll hug your elephant if you kiss my ass." What more needs to be said about working together for the common good?

Well, good run, but many instances of faiths involving reincarnation tend not to limit their primary concepts to "bi-".
;)

Question to those who dead-set believe in the soul and the after-life/reincarnation: what (good) proof do you have of any of these?

Why do we need proof? Personal experience is enough for me.

Why do we need proof? Personal experience is enough for me.

Does it not stand to reason that living something *is* proof?
The conditioner being, of course, a semi-sound and semi-rational mind.

Oi! Vetalia! You can answer this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12712161&postcount=117) first :)