NationStates Jolt Archive

Just a few questions about the enviroment I've had percolating for a while and I see a few people on the boards who are Eco-Warriors so I need some things cleared up.Especially since I read the books "You Are Being Lied To" and "Everything You Know Is Wrong" both edited by Russ Kick.The article by the founder of Greenpeace really opened my eyes a lot.

1.What's the proof of Global Warming?Since so many variables go into the weather and enviroment how do we know it's happening?And when did it shift from Global Cooling?Back in Middle School we were warned about the coming Ice Age that was going to destroy humanity.What Happened?

2.Why do so many Eco-Zealots have web sites and, in the case of one I know of, use Gasoline Bombs to burn down car dealerships to stop pollution? These people want the destruction of all technology but still use the internet and use fossil fuels to protest.They also talk about Humanity being a "Cancer" on the planet.We'll why not sterilize yourselves and go live like/with the Amish?If you truly believe in this why not try it?

3.Is Vegan/Vegatarianism truly a lifestyle choice for Ethical reasons,Health reasons or is it a secret cry for help?I believe most of these people restrict their diets just so they can feel in control of some part of their lives.Yes or no?

I'm not trying to flame or be sarcastic in this I just live in a small town in the south and don't know anyone to run the questions by.Thanks.

Just a few questions about the enviroment I've had percolating for a while and I see a few people on the boards who are Eco-Warriors so I need some things cleared up.Especially since I read the books "You Are Being Lied To" and "Everything You Know Is Wrong" both edited by Russ Kick.The article by the founder of Greenpeace really opened my eyes a lot.

1.What's the proof of Global Warming?Since so many variables go into the weather and enviroment how do we know it's happening?And when did it shift from Global Cooling?Back in Middle School we were warned about the coming Ice Age that was going to destroy humanity.What Happened?

2.Why do so many Eco-Zealots have web sites and, in the case of one I know of, use Gasoline Bombs to burn down car dealerships to stop pollution? These people want the destruction of all technology but still use the internet and use fossil fuels to protest.They also talk about Humanity being a "Cancer" on the planet.We'll why not sterilize yourselves and go live like/with the Amish?If you truly believe in this why not try it?

3.Is Vegan/Vegatarianism truly a lifestyle choice for Ethical reasons,Health reasons or is it a secret cry for help?I believe most of these people restrict their diets just so they can feel in control of some part of their lives.Yes or no?

I'm not trying to flame or be sarcastic in this I just live in a small town in the south and don't know anyone to run the questions by.Thanks.

I think you already know the answer to 2 and 3. #2 are extremists. #3 can include extremists but not as a rule. As for #1, check out www.realclimate.org and here is a great place to start http://www.begbroke.ox.ac.uk/climate/interface.html

1.What's the proof of Global Warming?Since so many variables go into the weather and enviroment how do we know it's happening?And when did it shift from Global Cooling?Back in Middle School we were warned about the coming Ice Age that was going to destroy humanity.What Happened?


Just look around you. You can see that global warming is happening clearly, just look at the glaciers, or just by comparing the climate today from the climate a century ago. Global warming has happened many times before, and there is no reason why the Earth shouldn't be on it's warming phase now. The debate is how extensive the warming will be, and whether co2 is a factor.


2.Why do so many Eco-Zealots have web sites and, in the case of one I know of, use Gasoline Bombs to burn down car dealerships to stop pollution? These people want the destruction of all technology but still use the internet and use fossil fuels to protest.They also talk about Humanity being a "Cancer" on the planet.We'll why not sterilize yourselves and go live like/with the Amish?If you truly believe in this why not try it?


Because they are dumbfucks.


3.Is Vegan/Vegatarianism truly a lifestyle choice for Ethical reasons,Health reasons or is it a secret cry for help?I believe most of these people restrict their diets just so they can feel in control of some part of their lives.Yes or no?


Ethical reasons mostly.

2.Why do so many Eco-Zealots have web sites and, in the case of one I know of, use Gasoline Bombs to burn down car dealerships to stop pollution? These people want the destruction of all technology but still use the internet and use fossil fuels to protest.They also talk about Humanity being a "Cancer" on the planet.We'll why not sterilize yourselves and go live like/with the Amish?If you truly believe in this why not try it?

3.Is Vegan/Vegatarianism truly a lifestyle choice for Ethical reasons,Health reasons or is it a secret cry for help?I believe most of these people restrict their diets just so they can feel in control of some part of their lives.Yes or no?

They aren't environmental issues at, they're issues with environmentalists.

Just look around you. You can see that global warming is happening clearly, just look at the glaciers, or just by comparing the climate today from the climate a century ago. Global warming has happened many times before, and there is no reason why the Earth shouldn't be on it's warming phase now. The debate is how extensive the warming will be, and whether co2 is a factor.


There's no debate over whether CO2 emissions are a factor, at least not in the legitimate scientific community (people ExxonMobil hires to discredit the consensus don't count). But you're right about debate over how extensive it's going to be...current options range from "serious problem resulting in millions of displaced persons and a significant chunk of the world GDP lost" to "utterly catastrophic and civilization-ruining," depending on a few unknowns and whether or not we take serious steps to avert a catastrophe.

1.What's the proof of Global Warming?

science

2.Why do so many Eco-Zealots...use Gasoline Bombs to burn down car dealerships to stop pollution?

because bombs are faster than bonfires and more effective than just keying the things

[2.5]We'll why not sterilize yourselves and go live like/with the Amish?If you truly believe in this why not try it?

because you wouldn't and therefore that wouldn't solve the problem?

3.Is Vegan/Vegatarianism truly a lifestyle choice for Ethical reasons

yes

at least not in the legitimate scientific community

Theres no such thing as a "legitimate scientific community".

Theres no such thing as a "legitimate scientific community".

on what grounds do you rest this claim?

on what grounds do you rest this claim?

There is no scientific community that has authority over others.

There is no scientific community that has authority over others.

yes, there is

yes, there is

not on an international basis, and I don't mean authority as in what is and isn't accepted by the government.

not on an international basis, and I don't mean authority as in what is and isn't accepted by the government.

I think what was meant by "legitimate scientific community" was the community that actually uses science and does not misuse it, such as the "science" put forth by companies like exxon-mobil. A better word than "legitimate" would have been "actual".

not on an international basis

yes, there is. it's not hard to find it either, or read what the community currently believes the evidence supports on any particular time. they've got these neato journals that are subject to this awesome institution they've invented called 'peer-review'. its like a method that strives to make sure that what one says isn't utter crap. brilliant!

I think what was meant by "legitimate scientific community" was the community that actually uses science and does not misuse it, such as the "science" put forth by companies like exxon-mobil. A better word than "legitimate" would have been "actual".

They all use the same scientific data, it's just about how you interpret the data. Even within one of the most pro co2 emmissions causing global warming scientific bodies in england, one of the leading scientists in there could only answer the question "does co2 cause global warming?" as "probably". Not "yes certainly", most scientists don't deny that it's not proven beyond doubt that co2 causes global warming.

yes, there is. it's not hard to find it either, or read what the community currently believes the evidence supports on any particular time. they've got these neato journals that are subject to this awesome institution they've invented called 'peer-review'. its like a method that strives to make sure that what one says isn't utter crap. brilliant!

What is the legitimate international scientific body then? Remember, it being legitimate implies that other scientific communities are false.

They all use the same scientific data, it's just about how you interpret the data. Even within one of the most pro co2 emmissions causing global warming scientific bodies in england, one of the leading scientists in there could only answer the question "does co2 cause global warming?" as "probably". Not "yes certainly", most scientists don't deny that it's not proven beyond doubt that co2 causes global warming.

I wouldn't trust a scientist who would say that it is proven beyond a doubt.

They all use the same scientific data, it's just about how you interpret the data. Even within one of the most pro co2 emmissions causing global warming scientific bodies in england, one of the leading scientists in there could only answer the question "does co2 cause global warming?" as "probably". Not "yes certainly", most scientists don't deny that it's not proven beyond doubt that co2 causes global warming.

is it even possible to prove something like that without a doubt with the current technology we have?

They all use the same scientific data

no, they don't. the legitimate/actual scientific community does. the fakers and shills that dress up in lab coats typically just make shit up for dollars (or jeebus, as the case may be).

is it even possible to prove something like that without a doubt with the current technology we have?

its not even a question of technology. certainty is for theoretical math, abstract deductive logic, and our lord john frum.

"you'd have to be crazy to believe otherwise" seems to be a pretty good standard the rest of the time. best we can do, anyways.

no, they don't. the legitimate/actual scientific community does. the fakers and shills that dress up in lab coats typically just make shit up for dollars (or jeebus, as the case may be).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_VmMIbWKoo

My favorite. :)

is it even possible to prove something like that without a doubt with the current technology we have?

There are many models designed by scientists that have been put on super computers that try to predict what will happen if we continue to put co2 in the atmosphere. The results vary a lot, some show that there will be no damaging effect and some show there will be a huge damaging effect.

no, they don't. the legitimate/actual scientific community does. the fakers and shills that dress up in lab coats typically just make shit up for dollars (or jeebus, as the case may be).

Have you actually seen any scientific opposition?

Have you actually seen any scientific opposition?

to what, specifically?

There are many models designed by scientists that have been put on super computers that try to predict what will happen if we continue to put co2 in the atmosphere. The results vary a lot, some show that there will be no damaging effect and some show there will be a huge damaging effect.

got some cites for these claims handy?

1.What's the proof of Global Warming?Since so many variables go into the weather and enviroment how do we know it's happening?And when did it shift from Global Cooling?Back in Middle School we were warned about the coming Ice Age that was going to destroy humanity.What Happened?

The proof is that it's happening. Worldwide atmospheric and surface temperatures have been increasing, glaciers retreating, and ice-shelves collapsing. As for anthropogenic global warming, there is significant statistical and model correlation between CO2, Methane, and other greenhouse gas emissions and global warming.

As for the global cooling concern, it was based on a couple studies conducted in the 60s concerning greenhouse gas effects and albedo effects of other polutants. The study concluded that increased albedo would reflect solar radiation and reduce temperatures. Unfortunately, these were very preliminary studies, and the great deal of studies that have concluded in anthropogenic global warming came as a direct result of testing many of their assumptions and conclusions. Specifically, the greenhouse effect of various gasses is now known to be much greater than originally thought, and albedo effects are much less effected by atmospheric polution than these studies had calculated. The fact that many of the assumptions and conclusions were inaccurate has led to the greater understanding of climate we have today. Just to let you know, that study had originally been received skeptically because it did not conform to the observed phenomena of rising global temperatures that began being noted in the mid-50s. The one thing that has remained the same is that we know our pollution not only results in biochemical concerns for organisms, but that it can have adverse effects on climate homeostasis.

The argument I read against Global Warming being caused soley by technology used these points.
1. Radical Climate changes have happened in the past(End of the last Ice Age,End of the Dark ages when europe warmed up,etc...)that can't be blamed on technology.This Global Warming may be natural and occur independent of our interference.

2.It can't be studied empirically.We have too many variable in the atmosphere too account for and no other planets to reference.It's like saying the answers 42.That's good but whats the question.I left the book at work so tommorrow I'll present more arguments.

1. Radical Climate changes have happened in the past(End of the last Ice Age,End of the Dark ages when europe warmed up,etc...)that can't be blamed on technology.This Global Warming may be natural and occur independent of our interference.

this assumes that we have no idea what the mechanisms that affect change are, then or now. this is so wrong one has to suspect that whoever writes it is knowingly lying to you for some hidden motive.

2.It can't be studied empirically.

ridiculous

got some cites for these claims handy?

http://www.globalwarmingart.com/wiki/Image:Global_Warming_Predictions_png

The IPCC predicts global temperature change of 1.4-5.8°C

There are many other model predictions outside of the IPCC, but the IPCC is the most important. Remember that this is the IPCC we are talking about, there are many many reports that they have made "flux adjustments that can be 25 times larger than the effect of doubling carbon dioxide concentrations."

3.Is Vegan/Vegatarianism truly a lifestyle choice for Ethical reasons,Health reasons or is it a secret cry for help?I believe most of these people restrict their diets just so they can feel in control of some part of their lives.Yes or no?Depends on where you live and what you choose to eat.

Pure veganism is practically unnatural to a human being and in many places unhealthy to environment (due to climate, soil & indigenous plantlife being what they are).

But...in general, we do eat way too much meat and other dairy products, even when there's a choice of eating locally produced plant food.

1.What's the proof of Global Warming?Since so many variables go into the weather and enviroment how do we know it's happening?And when did it shift from Global Cooling?Back in Middle School we were warned about the coming Ice Age that was going to destroy humanity.What Happened?


Go into your kitchen and close every door and window. Turn on the oven and stay inside. Gradually, things will turn hot.

Now multiply that by hundreds of millions of ovens, hundreds of thousands of factories, thousands of millions of cars, airplanes, bikes, trucks and machines, and millions of homes with heat systems.

Ok. Get the picture? Its your kitchen times 6 billion.

The argument I read against Global Warming being caused soley by technology used these points.
1. Radical Climate changes have happened in the past(End of the last Ice Age,End of the Dark ages when europe warmed up,etc...)that can't be blamed on technology.This Global Warming may be natural and occur independent of our interference.

If you broke your arm by falling off a bike, would you argue that that is the only way one can break an arm?

see, there's these things called "greenhouse gases" of which CO2 is one of them (due to molecular structure, I'm sure someone can give a detailed explanation of it). the greenhouse effect is quite important, it keeps the earth from freezing and making it habitable. however, when the concentration of greenhouse gases is too high, then things get too hot. global warming is essentially a runaway greenhouse effect, and for an example of what that can do to a planet just look at venus.

the burning of fossil fuels is a combustion reaction, meaning that CO2 is going to be released. greater concentration of CO2 = greater concentration of greenhouse gases = warmer.