NationStates Jolt Archive

Read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies).

It really is quite sad to me to think Martin Luther King Jr.'s father was named after this guy, and his son inherited the name. How mournfully ironic.

This may be the definition of 'old news.' :D

and thus racism doesn't exist in america....

Isn't that where your posts usually go? And the fact that Martin Luther King was named after Martin Luther is shocking to you?

Is it really that shocking? I mean this was written back in the Middle Ages, when there was alot of antisemitism back then.

In the end, the Jews use this to profit by exacting reparations. It's really a win-win I think - Germans can hate, Israel gets submarines.

and thus racism doesn't exist in america....

Isn't that where your posts usually go? And the fact that Martin Luther King was named after Martin Luther is shocking to you?

:rolleyes: I said racism is not a determining factor in America, but that is certainly NOT where my "posts usually go" if you look-up my posts with search.
Anyway, what has Martin Luther have to do with racism today? If you are refering to Martin Luther King Jr., that was the 60's. If you are refering to the European one...*low whistle*.

In the end, the Jews use this to profit by exacting reparations. It's really a win-win I think - Germans can hate, Israel gets submarines.

and Mel Brooks make funny films, everyone wins. :D

Is it really that shocking? I mean this was written back in the Middle Ages, when there was alot of antisemitism back then.

It is not shocking that a person wrote this, rather it is shocking that the person who did is considered great, has a religious sect named for him, AND the man who probably did more to end racism in America then any-other man is named after-him.
It really is shocking when you think about it.

Anyway, what has Martin Luther have to do with racism today?

That's a good question. Why did you make this thread? To point out that a baptist minister shared the name of a man who began the religious movement that lead to the formation of baptism?

If you are refering to Martin Luther King Jr., that was the 60's.

Because all those racists that King fought in the 60s are all dead, as are all their decendants that those people passed on their racist attitudes to....

That's a good question. Why did you make this thread? To point out that a baptist minister shared the name of a man who began the religious movement that lead to the formation of baptism?



Because all those racists that King fought in the 60s are all dead, as are all their decendants that those people passed on their racist attitudes to....

The hippies :p? That was who their off-spring were.

It is not shocking that a person wrote this, rather it is shocking that the person who did is considered great, has a religious sect named for him, AND the man who probably did more to end racism in America then any-other man is named after-him.
It really is shocking when you think about it.

no, not really. Because Luther had views that would be considered bad in a more enlightened and modern era does not discount his acts, or the fact that he did create a religious movement, and lead to a scism that continues to have ramification in global socio-political situations today.

Whether one agrees with Luther's anti semetic positions or not, he DID create lutherism, which was directly related to the formation of baptism, and King Sr was a baptist minister.

The hippies :p? That was who their off-spring were.

....yeah, because the kids of all those klansmen in alabama all went off and became hippies...

And in a great twist of irony, the current members of the KKK and neo nazi groups are children of hippies!

That's a good question. Why did you make this thread? To point out that a baptist minister shared the name of a man who began the religious movement that lead to the formation of baptism?

No, I find it shocking people formed religious beliefs around this nut, I mean Jesus was okay, but this fellow....
I also find it ironic that a man is named for some-one that is his complete opposite, and worked for the opposite of what he did.

It is not shocking that a person wrote this, rather it is shocking that the person who did is considered great, has a religious sect named for him, AND the man who probably did more to end racism in America then any-other man is named after-him.
It really is shocking when you think about it.

Like I said, Middle Ages = Lotsa Antisemitism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Following_centuries

It is not shocking that a person wrote this, rather it is shocking that the person who did is considered great, has a religious sect named for him, AND the man who probably did more to end racism in America then any-other man is named after-him.
It really is shocking when you think about it.

Lots of great people had ideas that have been debunked or are considered wrong today. If you're going back 500 years, you should expect that sort of thing. In any case, the Lutheran Church isn't based on antisemitism - it was other, earlier ideas of Martin Luther that are responsible there. The work you cited was written when Luther was at the end of his life.

It is not shocking that a person wrote this, rather it is shocking that the person who did is considered great, has a religious sect named for him, AND the man who probably did more to end racism in America then any-other man is named after-him.
It really is shocking when you think about it.

*than

....yeah, because the kids of all those klansmen in alabama all went off and became hippies...

And in a great twist of irony, the current members of the KKK and neo nazi groups are children of hippies!

I would hardly call the KKK a an influencial group. They are a strong minority.
The only REAL racist running anything is Robert Byrd.

No, I find it shocking people formed religious beliefs around this nut,

About 500 years ago Luther was considered remarkably progressive. That Lutheranism is named after its founder, Luther, is about as shocking as Marxism being named after Marx, or Hobbsian neo-realism being named after Hobbes, or something to be refered to as "machiavellian".

Concepts tend to get named after those who extrapolated upon them for the first time.

I also find it ironic that a man is named for some-one that is his complete opposite, and worked for the opposite of what he did.

that is, perhaps, ironic, a bit. But shocking? Not really. A baptist minister had the name of someone who formed a religious movement that lead to baptism. He passed that name on to his son. There's nothing shocking about that. A tad ironic, perhaps, but certainly not shocking.

Moreover, Martin Luther King Jr. is not named after someone his complete opposite. King Jr. is named after his father. His father took the name of Martin Luther, but King Jr. was not named after martin Luther, he was named after his father.

http://www.indamixworldwide.com/html/images/indamix/housecalls/martin%20Luther%20King%202.jpg

"I say to you today, my friends, so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream that one day, one mighty day, all Jews will die and we shall no longer suffer from their evil ways.

I have a dream today."

It is not shocking that a person wrote this, rather it is shocking that the person who did is considered great, has a religious sect named for him, AND the man who probably did more to end racism in America then any-other man is named after-him.
It really is shocking when you think about it.

Because the person who wrote it was one of the single greatest contributors to the Protestant Reformation. He defied the Catholic Church and it's corrupt practices at a time when such active defiance could get you killed. If he were alive today, he would, in all likelihood support the establishment of the State of Israel and probably be rabidly anti-Islamic - he would probably also have repudiated Hitler and Fascism because of the blatant occultism practiced by both as well as genocide, not only of Jews, but Gypsies and other "undesirables." His racism was very much a product of the times during which he lived.

http://www.indamixworldwide.com/html/images/indamix/housecalls/martin%20Luther%20King%202.jpg

"I say to you today, my friends, so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream that one day, one mighty day, all Jews will die and we shall no longer suffer from their evil ways.

I have a dream today."

MLK Jr. really should stop channeling Martin Luther, it's embarrassing. :p

Because the person who wrote it was one of the single greatest contributors to the Protestant Reformation. He defied the Catholic Church and it's corrupt practices at a time when such active defiance could get you killed. If he were alive today, he would, in all likelihood support the establishment of the State of Israel and probably be rabidly anti-Islamic - he would probably also have repudiated Hitler and Fascism because of the blatant occultism practiced by both as well as genocide, not only of Jews, but Gypsies and other "undesirables." His racism was very much a product of the times during which he lived.

Racism? Don't you mean antisemitism?

*snip*
You know, I'm pretty damn irreverant, but that was in poor taste, bro :(

Racism? Don't you mean antisemitism?

In this context, they are used interchangeably, largely so I don't get too repetitive.

Racism? Don't you mean antisemitism?

well in fairness, he was specifically anti jewish, which can be argued to be racism, as many consider jews to be a race themselves.

You know, I'm pretty damn irreverant, but that was in poor taste, bro :(

Don't get your panties in a bunch, it wasn't that bad.

Don't get your panties in a bunch, it wasn't that bad.

I disagree. Sorry.

Racism? Don't you mean antisemitism?

Actually, alot antisemitism is racism and not specifically against Judaism as a religion. If you look at the Holocaust, Hitler didn't care if the Jews believed in God or were pagans or atheists. He was against the Jewish race, regardless of their religious beliefs.

Anyway, whether you are in favor of Luther or not, you probably recognize that he was a bit of an extremist. He said many of the same things against Catholics as he wrote against Jews in that pamphlet. I believe the exact quote was, "If the madness of Romanists will not be stopped we must take to them with swords and axes and burn their churches to the ground!" Seems sort of like what he wrote about the Jews and their synagogues in that link on the first page, huh?

This may be the definition of 'old news.' very old indeed... :rolleyes:

and the US is soooo very protestant...

Racism? Don't you mean antisemitism?Antisemitism is hatred of Jews as a 'race' or 'nation' or people, not as a religious group. The word was originally used to name hatred of all Semites, only later was that meaning narrowed to Jews.
In Luther's case, I suppose that his rejection of Jews relied on his theological opinions. "For Luther, salvation depended on the belief that Jesus was the son of God, a belief that Jews do not share."

And to the OP: have you actually read the entire text?

and thus racism doesn't exist in america....

Isn't that where your posts usually go? And the fact that Martin Luther King was named after Martin Luther is shocking to you?

i believe that its quite well really shocking i never new that!!!! so yeah it is.

The funny thing about Martin Luther's contempt of Jews is that in spite of it he still believed in the god fabricated by Jews. ;)

The funny thing about Martin Luther's contempt of Jews is that in spite of it he still believed in the god fabricated by Jews. ;)

Which the Jews probably borrowed from Zoroastrianism, ahh the ironies are abound in this.

Read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies).

It really is quite sad to me to think Martin Luther King Jr.'s father was named after this guy, and his son inherited the name. How mournfully ironic.
What exactly are you trying to accomplish by this thread?
This may be the definition of 'old news.' :D
Try "ancient news of yester-centuries"
Is it really that shocking? I mean this was written back in the Middle Ages, when there was alot of antisemitism back then.
That's what happens if one disregards the circumstances under which those ramblings of an old man shortly before he died came to be.
In the end, the Jews use this to profit by exacting reparations. It's really a win-win I think - Germans can hate, Israel gets submarines.
Excuse me?
The only thing I do hate are really stupid comments like that! :upyours:
It is not shocking that a person wrote this, rather it is shocking that the person who did is considered great, has a religious sect named for him, AND the man who probably did more to end racism in America then any-other man is named after-him.
It really is shocking when you think about it.
It's not really shocking when you do think about it.
Luther was a child of his times - throughout his life he felt sorry for the Jews and regretted the circumstances under which they had to live.

Instead of focusing on the good things he's achieved you pick that one stupid essay of 60,000 words? Way to go!

Not only did he stand up to the Catholic Church - you blatantly disregard that his translation of the Bible only rendered it possible for the common man to see for himself what his religion was about and read the scripture himself.
That, and the creation of a uniform, standardized German written language are his greatest accomplishments.

Not those ramblings of a senile old man who didn't know any better.
no, not really. Because Luther had views that would be considered bad in a more enlightened and modern era does not discount his acts, or the fact that he did create a religious movement, and lead to a scism that continues to have ramification in global socio-political situations today.

Whether one agrees with Luther's anti semetic positions or not, he DID create lutherism, which was directly related to the formation of baptism, and King Sr was a baptist minister.
Yup. Think about that!
No, I find it shocking people formed religious beliefs around this nut, I mean Jesus was okay, but this fellow....
I also find it ironic that a man is named for some-one that is his complete opposite, and worked for the opposite of what he did.
Welcome to the real world. It is shocking! :rolleyes:
Lots of great people had ideas that have been debunked or are considered wrong today. If you're going back 500 years, you should expect that sort of thing. In any case, the Lutheran Church isn't based on antisemitism - it was other, earlier ideas of Martin Luther that are responsible there. The work you cited was written when Luther was at the end of his life.
Exactly!
Because the person who wrote it was one of the single greatest contributors to the Protestant Reformation. He defied the Catholic Church and it's corrupt practices at a time when such active defiance could get you killed. If he were alive today, he would, in all likelihood support the establishment of the State of Israel and probably be rabidly anti-Islamic - he would probably also have repudiated Hitler and Fascism because of the blatant occultism practiced by both as well as genocide, not only of Jews, but Gypsies and other "undesirables." His racism was very much a product of the times during which he lived.
If people chose to be ignorant, there's little one can do, eh?

The Lutheran Church certainly is not based on this little writing.

"The material principle of Lutheranism is the doctrine of justification: salvation by God's grace alone (Sola Gratia), through faith alone (Sola Fide), revealed through scripture alone (Sola Scriptura). Lutherans believe this grace is granted for the sake of Christ's merit alone (Solus Christus)."
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran )

Yeah, but what if Martin Luther was right?

It is not shocking that a person wrote this, rather it is shocking that the person who did is considered great, has a religious sect named for him, AND the man who probably did more to end racism in America then any-other man is named after-him.
It really is shocking when you think about it.

Well, in all honesty - Judaism was and is a competing religion. If you're s'posed to be the true voice of God then making all other religions and their practicioners look bad is high on the agenda - especially if it's the public opinion (they hate religion X too, they can't be that bad, and look at all the other benefits the religion B has compared to our religion A - Let's convert).

Abrahamic religions, in general, are about destroying and oppressing other religions and their practicioners - we're right, they're not - There's nothing wrong about that: If you absolutely believe in your faith then you must also absolutely believe that believers of other faiths are wrong, that they're inferior heretics.

Besides jews practice male genital mutilation (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6584757516627632617) which is basically gender based torture. :p

What exactly are you trying to accomplish by this thread?

It certainly seems that he's trying to condemn Martin Luther based on a single essay.

Park Place learned something new and he wants to share. He just forgets that one's life isn't defined by a single event or writing.

Read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies).

It really is quite sad to me to think Martin Luther King Jr.'s father was named after this guy, and his son inherited the name. How mournfully ironic.
But when you consider the dirtbag that the grandson turned out to be, it isn't so sad then, huh?

No, I find it shocking people formed religious beliefs around this nut, I mean Jesus was okay, but this fellow....
I also find it ironic that a man is named for some-one that is his complete opposite, and worked for the opposite of what he did.

Now I KNOW you did NOT just imply that Protestants worship Luther as if he is the Savior....

And I know that you are not saying that it's a bad thing to have pointed out the hypocrisy in the Catholic church that let people believe they could purchase their forgiveness from sin and buy their way into heaven through papal bulls and buying masses, right?

Welcome to the 15th century.
Please check your 21st century ideals at the door and do try to remember that 572 years does, in fact, make a difference.
'Sides, everybody knows the Jews caused the Black Death.

It certainly seems that he's trying to condemn Martin Luther based on a single essay.

Park Place learned something new and he wants to share. He just forgets that one's life isn't defined by a single event or writing.
That's what I thought. I just wanted to hear it from him. :rolleyes:
Now I KNOW you did NOT just imply that Protestants worship Luther as if he is the Savior....

And I know that you are not saying that it's a bad thing to have pointed out the hypocrisy in the Catholic church that let people believe they could purchase their forgiveness from sin and buy their way into heaven through papal bulls and buying masses, right?
Are you sure?

That's what I thought. I just wanted to hear it from him. :rolleyes:
Like that would ever happen.

It certainly seems that he's trying to condemn Martin Luther based on a single essay..What do you mean with 'single essay' ? ML's entire theological dealings with the Jews wants them to convert or otherwise go to hell. And considering the influence of ML at the time, even a single essay can do a lot.
The irony in this is that Luther's theology is the exact same crap as Judaism, the real reformation would have been to drop the Jew-ish god altogether.

What do you mean with 'single essay' ? ML's entire theological dealings with the Jews wants them to convert or otherwise go to hell. And considering the influence of ML at the time, even a single essay can do a lot.
Mind you, those were different times. The Dark Ages were barely over...
The irony in this is that Luther's theology is the exact same crap as Judaism, the real reformation would have been to drop the Jew-ish god altogether.
Now how stupid a proposal is that?

If you want to reform something you cannot change its core and get rid of its basis and fundamental belief.

What you are saying is not reformation but abolishment. Something that would not bode well with people who believe in God. Not now - but especially not back then.

Oh yeah, you didn't know that? Martin Luther was one anti-semitic jerkoff.

'Sides, everybody knows the Jews caused the Black Death.

Nope, nope, it was the witches. You know, old widow women who knew that willow bark reduces fever, and their cats (familiars), which clearly caused Black Death. Lots of cats where Black Death outbreaks happened.

(Of course that couldn't be because the cats were attracted to killing the millions of rats, and because the rats were infested with fleas bearing the black death.)

Are you sure?

That was the Catholic expressing, in ironic fashion, that Luther and Protestants are not heretics nor bad people for pointing out Catholic hypocrisy, thank you. ;)

That was the Catholic expressing, in ironic fashion, that Luther and Protestants are not heretics nor bad people for pointing out Catholic hypocrisy, thank you. ;)
Thanks for not calling me a heretic. :D

Martin Luther is possibly one of the most overated europeans ever.

Thanks for not calling me a heretic. :D

My best friend/future maid of honor would have kicked my arse. (She is a devout Lutheran who attends a Lutheran/Dutch Reformed church.)

Martin Luther is possibly one of the most overated europeans ever.
As a person, maybe so.

But what he got started definitely had a huge influence on European, if not world history.
Just look at the 30 Years War, for example.
My best friend/future maid of honor would have kicked my arse. (She is a devout Lutheran who attends a Lutheran/Dutch Reformed church.)
:D Yay!

Martin Luther is possibly one of the most overated europeans ever.

overrated in what way?

I fail to see what MLK's namesake has to do with him. If MLK's name was Leroy Spinkowitz it would not change the things he did.

Martin Luther was great, one of the world's most important religious figures, and he was completely right. The new ideas of "tolerence" are responsible for many of the world's problems, accepting a destructive group into society is the same as accepting a dangerous animal in a livestock pen.

Martin Luther was great, one of the world's most important religious figures, and he was completely right. The new ideas of "tolerence" are responsible for many of the world's problems, accepting a destructive group into society is the same as accepting a dangerous animal in a livestock pen.

Yes. So let's be intolerant and drive off those darned racists.

Martin Luther was great, one of the world's most important religious figures, and he was completely right. The new ideas of "tolerence" are responsible for many of the world's problems, accepting a destructive group into society is the same as accepting a dangerous animal in a livestock pen.


Please take your racist veiws to some KKK message board.

I fail to see what MLK's namesake has to do with him. If MLK's name was Leroy Spinkowitz it would not change the things he did.

as I noted before, Martin Luther King Jr.'s namesake is not Martin Luther. Martin Luther King Jr.'s namesake is Martin Luther King Sr.

Martin Luther King Sr. took the name Martin Luther King from Martin Luther, but MLK Jr. did not get his name, directly, from Martin Luther. He got it from his father.

This was the middle ages, dude. Everyone talked like that.

Fortunately the primary focus of what Luther did had nothing to do with th Jews, and everything to do with the liberalization of western society.

Yes. So let's be intolerant and drive off those darned racists.Americans?

What exactly are you trying to accomplish by this thread?


I hope you know threads never really accomplish anything. You don't answer for yours, why should I answer for mine?

Now I KNOW you did NOT just imply that Protestants worship Luther as if he is the Savior....

Naturally. I'm not attacking Protestants. I just think this is ironic.

And I know that you are not saying that it's a bad thing to have pointed out the hypocrisy in the Catholic church that let people believe they could purchase their forgiveness from sin and buy their way into heaven through papal bulls and buying masses, right?


What does one have to do with the other? I'm not attacking the letter against the Catholic Church. On the contrary, I highly commend it.
Why does everyone hate me all-of-a-sudden?

Martin Luther was great, one of the world's most important religious figures, and he was completely right. The new ideas of "tolerence" are responsible for many of the world's problems, accepting a destructive group into society is the same as accepting a dangerous animal in a livestock pen.

Hmm, I agree about the dumb "tolerence", but, ah, that doesn't mean we should be Nazis. Are you saying Native Americans should go-around torching all white/asian/black/Jewish ect. houses, and killing them, and buring Churches that don't worship the old Aztec American sun-god?

Why does everyone hate me all-of-a-sudden?

The rabid racism, maybe?

The rabid racism, maybe?

All-of-a-sudden my racism is rabid? I just happen to think Jews have more money-grubers on avarage....

All-of-a-sudden my racism is rabid? I just happen to think Jews have more money-grubers on avarage....

and that blacks are more lazy, on average....

What do you think of mexicans? I don't think you've told us that yet. And exactly how many jews do you know personally?

All-of-a-sudden my racism is rabid? I just happen to think Jews have more money-grubers on avarage....

You're on your own on this one.

*distance himself away*

and that blacks are more lazy, on average....

What do you think of mexicans? I don't think you've told us that yet. And exactly how many jews do you know personally?

I know only-one for-sure (personally, I've met many more, he is a pretty-nice fellow. I'm not sure if the others I know are Jewish, but I think-so.
Mexicans? Nothing paticularly wrong with them, why?

Anyway, I happen to be converting to Judaism, so soon I'll be Jewish. Then I shall see your arguemnt. :D

You're on your own on this one.

*distance himself away*

I just felt like provoking someone. It's kinda-fun to let-loose once-in-while with just a *taste* of troll.

Anyway...yeah....

The funny thing about Martin Luther's contempt of Jews is that in spite of it he still believed in the god fabricated by Jews. ;)

Prove He's fabricated.

Oh, and just a note: Both King and his father were originally named "Michael Luther." They changed their names to "Martin Luther" later on.

Oh, and just a note: Both King and his father were originally named "Michael Luther." They changed their names to "Martin Luther" later on.

Any idea why?

I hope you know threads never really accomplish anything. You don't answer for yours, why should I answer for mine?

They sometimes do.