NationStates Jolt Archive

So today after I did my observation at the hospital (occupational therapist), I got out of my uniform, ate lunch, took care of some business and then I went to my spot in the woods and meditated. While I was meditating, an interesting thought pop up. It seems like most religion have this small group of people (who are in the minority) who use the religion as a way to justify their hatred. This happens in Christianity, Islam, Asatru/Odinism, and several others. I mean if you look at the message of these religion, they all share similar message, like be good towards your fellow man, do not kill, steal, and be there for your family and friends etc. Despite the positive and good message that these religions may promote, some racist asshole will still try to twist it in a way to support their ignorant ideology.

What is interesting is that the people may try to distance themselves away from the loud and vocal minority, but somehow they always end up being grouped together with them. A good case of this is how since 9/11, rednecks and idiots seem to think that all Muslim and people of the Islamic faith are terrorist who'd blow you up, rape your daughter and kill your baby. The reason they keep on getting grouped up with these assholes is well, because they are loud, they are vocal, and they do tend to make themselves be heard, and like sheeps people tend to pay attention to them.

What can be done, I'm afraid not much, because there will always be assholes who'd use a religion that promotes peace and understanding among men and women, for their own twisted narrow-minded ideology. All we can do really is to learn about the religion ourselves and find out what they really teach and what the majority really believe.

I actually never understood the idea that those who use it for hate are not "true" members of their faith, that they're just twisting their faith for bad reasons, etc. From my reading of the Bible, it seems that hate is just as valid as love. After all, it's a pretty condemning book.

Now, I much prefer the people who cherrypick the Bible for reasons to love people/be nice than those who cherrypick it to hate/murder/etc. But they're both cherrypicking it.

Ya, I agree with you there. For example I myself am Pagan. In my town its mostly catholics, and they claim me as a satanic worshiper, and actually shun me for it.
Its just a natural instinct in humanity to be ignorent to stuff that we do not understand.

Nightkiller;12696640']Ya, I agree with you there. For example I myself am Pagan. In my town its mostly catholics, and they claim me as a satanic worshiper, and actually shun me for it.
Its just a natural instinct in humanity to be ignorent to stuff that we do not understand.

Just be glad you're not in the Baptist Bible Belt, they'd pretty much remind you 24/7 that you're going to Hell, and that's basically for anyone and everyone who isn't a Baptist.

I go as far as to group the ignorant generalizers with the extremists myself

course hate, religion and ignorance go hand in hand

Now, I much prefer the people who cherrypick the Bible for reasons to love people/be nice than those who cherrypick it to hate/murder/etc. But they're both cherrypicking it.

But . . . you will have a very hard time finding any words of Jesus in the Bible encouraging people to hate or murder. Don't get me wrong - all sorts of atrocities have been committed by so-called Christians in the name of Jesus - but he said to Pilate that his (Jesus') kingdom was not of this world and that if it was his followers would fight to establish it by the sword. It took 3 centuries for humanity to mess it all up and institutionalize Christianity. Anyways . . . just my 2 cents. BTW - "pagans" actually worshiping Satan seem pretty dubious. Especially considering the word originally meant "country dweller" - basically the urban sophisticates looked down on the rural folk and their "bumpkin" gods. Funny how the meanings of words change over time.

Just be glad you're not in the Baptist Bible Belt, they'd pretty much remind you 24/7 that you're going to Hell, and that's basically for anyone and everyone who isn't a Baptist.

lol, I am, But heres something to say though, us Pagans dont believe in no Devil and hell... so how can I go to a place that does not exist to me?

Nightkiller;12700459']lol, I am, But heres something to say though, us Pagans dont believe in no Devil and hell... so how can I go to a place that does not exist to me?

Tell me, if you don't believe in Hell or the Devil, then what happens to the "Hitlers", murders, abusers and basically all bad people of the world?

Tell me, if you don't believe in Hell or the Devil, then what happens to the "Hitlers", murders, abusers and basically all bad people of the world?

same thing that happens to everyone else, really (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition)

Tell me, if you don't believe in Hell or the Devil, then what happens to the "Hitlers", murders, abusers and basically all bad people of the world?

They walk the world as restless spirits until they are blessed and forgiven, or they can be reincarnated as a lesser organism like a beatle, or a cat.

Nightkiller;12700467']They walk the world as restless spirits until they are blessed and forgiven, or they can be reincarnated as a lesser organism like a beatle, or a cat.

Or something that everyone kills anyways, like a mosquito.

Pretty much, so that it comes to a full circle way. Then once they learned their lession, they are given another chance. So how about you, what religon might yo be?

Nightkiller;12700467']They walk the world as restless spirits until they are blessed and forgiven, or they can be reincarnated as a lesser organism like a beatle, or a cat.

Dibs on Ringo!

Nightkiller;12700476']Pretty much, so that it comes to a full circle way. Then once they learned their lession, they are given another chance. So how about you, what religon might yo be?

Eh right now you can pretty much call me Agnostic, I'm searching and doing alot of meditation, but for now I think Agnostic will do pretty well.

Now when you say that you are Pagan, do you follow a specific Pagan path or just incorporate different pagan beliefs?

Eh right now you can pretty much call me Agnostic, I'm searching and doing alot of meditation, but for now I think Agnostic will do pretty well.

Now when you say that you are Pagan, do you follow a specific Pagan path or just incorporate different pagan beliefs?

Cool, I really dont know much about Agnosticism, isnt that when you dont know about the true value, and that all is unknown.

And as well as Paganism, I try to incoporate it as best as I can. But it's really hard to be a pure Pagan since in the 16th century if I remember correctly they were mostly wiped out by Christians. Right now im an apprentice Druid, in two years I can become a full fledge Druid.

Nightkiller;12700494']Cool, I really dont know much about Agnosticism, isnt that when you dont know about the true value, and that all is unknown.

And as well as Paganism, I try to incoporate it as best as I can. But it's really hard to be a pure Pagan since in the 16th century if I remember correctly they were mostly wiped out by Christians. Right now im an apprentice Druid, in two years I can become a full fledge Druid.

That is really neat, good luck on becoming a full fledge Druid. :)

If you want to find out more about what I believe in, then you can go here. (http://a-10warthog.blogspot.com/2007/04/my-meditation-notes-updated-freq.html)

I do need to update that list though.

I actually never understood the idea that those who use it for hate are not "true" members of their faith, that they're just twisting their faith for bad reasons, etc. From my reading of the Bible, it seems that hate is just as valid as love. After all, it's a pretty condemning book.

Now, I much prefer the people who cherrypick the Bible for reasons to love people/be nice than those who cherrypick it to hate/murder/etc. But they're both cherrypicking it.No. The overall message of the bible is that humans come in different degrees of worthiness, and that this worthiness depends on descent and the way they follow the biblical god. And the hatred of those who assume to be up that scale against those who are somewhere below themselves on that scale is ubiquitous in the bible. There is no cherrypicking needed, the bible very clearly advocates contempt for and even slaughter of the "others", and love only for the right believers descended from Jacob.

Nightkiller;12696640']Its just a natural instinct in humanity to be ignorent to stuff that we do not understand.

I half agree with you here. Ignorance and fear is a social human manifestation of an animal impulse: fight or flight. The gradual solution to the dominance of this trait is education. It is only by embracing greater human qualities like compassion and understanding that society can overcome animal impulses like prejudice.

No. The overall message of the bible is that humans come in different degrees of worthiness, and that this worthiness depends on descent and the way they follow the biblical god. And the hatred of those who assume to be up that scale against those who are somewhere below themselves on that scale is ubiquitous in the bible. There is no cherrypicking needed, the bible very clearly advocates contempt for and even slaughter of the "others", and love only for the right believers descended from Jacob.

Can't say I understand that. Any slaughter committed by Christians was a fundementalist distortion of carefully chosen half-passages. Christ's teachings were clearly centered around loving everyone, especially your enemies.

But . . . you will have a very hard time finding any words of Jesus in the Bible encouraging people to hate or murder.

Agreed. Many holy texts contain violent stories with different messages. Most are intended to illustrate the might of God. The notion that any revealed religion "teaches hate" is a gross misinterpretation. As an example (this is one of many, and I'm not a Muslim, so if anyone more learned can elaborate here, that'd be great), in the teachings of Islam, there exist the Greater Jihad and the Lesser Jihad. The GREATER Jihad, is one's own moral struggle to follow the word of God, while the LESSER Jihad is the physical struggle to defend oneself, one's family, or one's community against serious oppression. Notice which Jihad is greater; notice that the lesser Jihad is to defend (not attack); notice that both are struggles deeply rooted in a LOVE for God and His creation, not hate.

The persistence of prejudice among religious communities is also chiefly due to a failure to recognize the oneness of religion. Many people say, "most religions teach pretty much the same thing; love your neighbor, don't steal, don't kill...", and in some respects they are absolutely correct. While there is a lot more to religion than those few things, the core components to virtually every religion is the same because it's virtually all derived from the same source. Recognizing this concept (which many religious texts and faith groups have) is key in turning contention into unity.

Brief aside: Wilgrove; good to hear that as an agnostic you're searching your path. Meditation is very important. I hope fanaticism doesn't turn you off from religion completely; that's not what it's (religion's) about.

Can't say I understand that. Any slaughter committed by Christians was a fundementalist distortion of carefully chosen half-passages. Christ's teachings were clearly centered around loving everyone, especially your enemies.The bible is not just the NT. And btw Jesus never addressed non-Jews.

The bible is not just the NT. And btw Jesus never addressed non-Jews.

That is true. The OT is one of the places where there are lots of dramatic stories that illustrate the might of God. The OT served as a medium for story telling, maintaining history, and accounting spiritual revelation. It tracked the history of the Jewish people. I'm not sure why you expect to find stories from other parts of the world in there. In terms of Jesus' ministry, Christ addressed anyone who would listen. Many stories describe Jesus addressing large crowds in public places (not necessarily Jewish houses of worship). Again, I don't see why you would find it surprising that many of Jesus' first followers happened to be Jewish.

Anyway, if you enhance the discussion with some quotes, in context, I think I will be able to better understand where you're coming from.

Brief aside: Wilgrove; good to hear that as an agnostic you're searching your path. Meditation is very important. I hope fanaticism doesn't turn you off from religion completely; that's not what it's (religion's) about.

While I do think that Religion is suspect to corruption due to the nature of humanity, I can also see the goodness that it can provide to the members and to the community, so I doubt I'll be turned off from religion completely anytime soon.

While I do think that Religion is suspect to corruption due to the nature of humanity, I can also see the goodness that it can provide to the members and to the community, so I doubt I'll be turned off from religion completely anytime soon.

Well I believe that religion these days is pretty much nothing to a mere man since alot of people dont go to church. But yet these are the kind of people that cliam you will go to hell.
Also, religion grants some people hope, as for an example... a homeless guy, cause then he will leave his life to the full, and know that when he dies he will end up in a better place.

The overall message of the bible is that humans come in different degrees of worthiness, and that this worthiness depends on descent and the way they follow the biblical god. And the hatred of those who assume to be up that scale against those who are somewhere below themselves on that scale is ubiquitous in the bible. There is no cherrypicking needed, the bible very clearly advocates contempt for and even slaughter of the "others", and love only for the right believers descended from Jacob.

Worthiness never really came from lineage, mainly righteousness (including just simply being right about God). There are plenty of examples of gentiles being accepted into the "Jacob Line". Even Cyrus the Great, the first emperor of Persia was called Shiak (meaning "messiah"), and the man was a pagan. In fact the depressing thing is that the Torah and the books of the prophets constantly speak of man's unworthiness to recieve anything from God and that only from following his word would they have a chance at going to Abraham's bosom when they died.
Also-
Since the New Testament is the fufillment of the Old Testament (according to the Bible), then isn't the real overall message of the Bible the freedom from the importance of ancestry, and salvation for all, which was stated directly and indirectly several times by Christ (when he marveled at the Centurian's faith, when he spoke to the Samaritan woman at the well, the parable of the wedding feast, etc.). That showed in the end the abolishment of lineage's importance, which was the ultimate triumph of love.

Saying that the Bible (Old and New Testaments together) is a statement of love is a fair statement.

The problem is that holy texts are so fucking LONG. I mean, if we just cut the Bible down to just Genesis and the Ten Commandments, I bet the religious jerks who claim that gays are evil wouldn't have as many followers.

So today after I did my observation at the hospital (occupational therapist), I got out of my uniform, ate lunch, took care of some business and then I went to my spot in the woods and meditated. While I was meditating, an interesting thought pop up. It seems like most religion have this small group of people (who are in the minority) who use the religion as a way to justify their hatred. This happens in Christianity, Islam, Asatru/Odinism, and several others. I mean if you look at the message of these religion, they all share similar message, like be good towards your fellow man, do not kill, steal, and be there for your family and friends etc. Despite the positive and good message that these religions may promote, some racist asshole will still try to twist it in a way to support their ignorant ideology.

What is interesting is that the people may try to distance themselves away from the loud and vocal minority, but somehow they always end up being grouped together with them. A good case of this is how since 9/11, rednecks and idiots seem to think that all Muslim and people of the Islamic faith are terrorist who'd blow you up, rape your daughter and kill your baby. The reason they keep on getting grouped up with these assholes is well, because they are loud, they are vocal, and they do tend to make themselves be heard, and like sheeps people tend to pay attention to them.

What can be done, I'm afraid not much, because there will always be assholes who'd use a religion that promotes peace and understanding among men and women, for their own twisted narrow-minded ideology. All we can do really is to learn about the religion ourselves and find out what they really teach and what the majority really believe.

I don't think that hatred is only a minority in religions, as almost every religion is based on the fear of death and vanishing and, sadly, fear is always a road the hatred and violence.

I don't think that hatred is only a minority in religions, as almost every religion is based on the fear of death and vanishing and, sadly, fear is always a road the hatred and violence.

You do realize what you just basically quoted, don't you?


JEDI IS THE ONE RELIGION THAT DOESN'T CAUSE HATRED AND VIOLENCE!

Oh, one place...I think Australia, one year it's census said their were roughly as many Jedi as Jews in Australia.

Ifreann -- "The larger the group of people, the more likely it will have f***tarded members."

The problem is people, not religion.

You do realize what you just basically quoted, don't you?


JEDI IS THE ONE RELIGION THAT DOESN'T CAUSE HATRED AND VIOLENCE!

Oh, one place...I think Australia, one year it's census said their were roughly as many Jedi as Jews in Australia.

Perhaps that was not the best way to say it, but as I said, religion and hatred go hand-in-hand, said holy texts something else or not. If everyone just would keep their religion as their own business and would not want to spread it or kill everyone else, who believes in something else, there might have not been so many wars and suffering in this cursed planet, but those things that would allow it exist only in fairytales.:(
Or in the major change of societies...

Dibs on Ringo!

Hate to tell ya, but Ringo's alive, well, and grandfathering. It's a little hard to be reincarnated as someone who's still alive.

You do realize what you just basically quoted, don't you?


JEDI IS THE ONE RELIGION THAT DOESN'T CAUSE HATRED AND VIOLENCE!

Oh, one place...I think Australia, one year it's census said their were roughly as many Jedi as Jews in Australia.With or without lightsabers?

Ifreann -- "The larger the group of people, the more likely it will have f***tarded members."

The problem is people, not religion.
Religion is kinda about ideological community, though, so the problem inherent in the former is always going to feature in the latter.

Ifreann -- "The larger the group of people, the more likely it will have f***tarded members."

The problem is people, not religion.But if the the religion is bad, there are only f***tarded members.

The problem is people, not religion.

How many people use "because unGod said so" as an excuse for bigotry?

How many people use "because God said so" as an excuse for bigotry?And how many can say so because the scripture their religion is based on does in fact say so?

How many people use "because unGod said so" as an excuse for bigotry?

None that I know of, what's your point? Religion can be used as a convenient excuse for one's inherent bigotry or hatred, atheism can't really. Well, that or it just hasn't on any notable scale yet.

It is an irony that so many religious people preach peace yet they kill abortion doctors. So I prefer to be agnostic!

None that I know of, what's your point? Religion can be used as a convenient excuse for one's inherent bigotry or hatred, atheism can't really.

You answered your own question.

Most people are rational, to one degree or another, and can be swayed by reason to abandon positions they hold. Religion provides an easy defense against the challenge of reason to bigoted positions. Atheism does not.

Depends. You can argue for Euthanasia or Eugenics on rationalistic grounds.

A whole bunch of people have.

Just because they're wrong and repulsive doesn;t mean they didn't.

There's atheist racists, homophobes and all the rest, they just don;t point to the book in my hands and say 'Jesus said it right there, hate teh gayz!'.

You answered your own question.

Most people are rational, to one degree or another, and can be swayed by reason to abandon positions they hold. Religion provides an easy defense against the challenge of reason to bigoted positions. Atheism does not.

Depends on the logic your providing, people don't need higher beings to hate.

You don't really need God or "un-God" to justify, just change the logic to a secular one that people can still appeal to...like cultural superiority.

un-God? What's that?

All religions are ideologies. And almost every ideology can be used to support horrible things. The French guillotined thousands in the name of freedom. The Communists killed millions.

That religion is often used for wrong ends does not mean religion is wrong per se. Following that logic, every single political philosophy would be wrong - name a political philosophy that hasn't been used to kill innocents.

Just be glad you're not in the Baptist Bible Belt, they'd pretty much remind you 24/7 that you're going to Hell, and that's basically for anyone and everyone who isn't a Baptist.

1) Why share your beliefs with others in the first place (that is, why should they know in the first place?

2) A sound STFU is the satisfying answer to such ignorance; A confused, "Gee, I thought that it was God who made that decision -- are you saying you know better than God?" is the more amusing one.

3) If that doesn't shut them up, or they continue to harass you because they don't see you in church, remind them of Matthew's words on the matter:

Matthew 6:5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."

un-God? What's that?

Its double speak brought to you by the Ministry Of Truth

Just be glad you're not in the Baptist Bible Belt, they'd pretty much remind you 24/7 that you're going to Hell, and that's basically for anyone and everyone who isn't a Baptist.

*loathes Baptists*

Baptists are of the opinion that Methodists, Catholics, Lutherans, <insert other Christian denominations here>, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, gays, atheists, agnostics, Pagans... anyone who isn't a perfect little Baptist is going to hell.

And they tend to be the loudest.

So today after I did my observation at the hospital (occupational therapist), I got out of my uniform, ate lunch, took care of some business and then I went to my spot in the woods and meditated. While I was meditating, an interesting thought pop up. It seems like most religion have this small group of people (who are in the minority) who use the religion as a way to justify their hatred. This happens in Christianity, Islam, Asatru/Odinism, and several others. I mean if you look at the message of these religion, they all share similar message, like be good towards your fellow man, do not kill, steal, and be there for your family and friends etc. Despite the positive and good message that these religions may promote, some racist asshole will still try to twist it in a way to support their ignorant ideology.

What is interesting is that the people may try to distance themselves away from the loud and vocal minority, but somehow they always end up being grouped together with them. A good case of this is how since 9/11, rednecks and idiots seem to think that all Muslim and people of the Islamic faith are terrorist who'd blow you up, rape your daughter and kill your baby. The reason they keep on getting grouped up with these assholes is well, because they are loud, they are vocal, and they do tend to make themselves be heard, and like sheeps people tend to pay attention to them.

What can be done, I'm afraid not much, because there will always be assholes who'd use a religion that promotes peace and understanding among men and women, for their own twisted narrow-minded ideology. All we can do really is to learn about the religion ourselves and find out what they really teach and what the majority really believe.

Peacable practioners of any giving faith tend to be like ...LIKE...Democrats.
The agree to be a member of greater whole but do not agree internally on many points. So in reality they lack solidarity. A solidarity not lacking in the radical minority of an ideology. By their own radical extremist hate they over come thier minor doctrinal differences to join in hate.

And with a willingness to lay any who disagree with them at the alter of sacrifice theyare the sqeakiest wheel.

For instance, I loathe the idea of abortion. To the point where I wished WISHED I hated a woman who get the rpocess with no more justification then she "didnt want the baby" but then, would i want to be hated for the horrible things i have done? I am no better then anyone else, so who am I to pass judgement? I should attempt to show that person that provokes such energy in me that htey are loved and understood, that there is sympathy in my disagreement and then perhaps my voice will be heard more clearly then angry faced shouting masses of assholes with pictures of dead babies or even better the ball bags with pipes bombs. Pipe bombs in the name of Jesus...yeah.

But what can I do? Say I agree with something I dont? Just to ditance myself from a maniac? NO. But i do agree this behavior is that of a maniac.

Islam(I am lucky enough to have many Muslim friends) is the gran whipping boy right now.
Muslims are in the same boat as christians, what can they do?
Merely be good, and hope that if enough of them give to the poor or help out the community it will out wiegh the beligerent minority.

People want easy answers.
The easy answer is generalization.
It's neat and cozy and requires little thought.

Bigotry rarely survives first contact...but if you never make that contact...well, i guess it remains.

Agree to disagree.

*loathes Baptists*

Baptists are of the opinion that Methodists, Catholics, Lutherans, <insert other Christian denominations here>, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, gays, atheists, agnostics, Pagans... anyone who isn't a perfect little Baptist is going to hell.

And they tend to be the loudest.

Baptist here.
I see the practice of the generalization I spoke of is alive and well.

Baptist here.
I see the practice of the generalization I spoke of is alive and well.

Okay, fine, most Baptists. Especially the ones I've met. And I've met TONS.

Nightkiller;12700467']They walk the world as restless spirits until they are blessed and forgiven, or they can be reincarnated as a lesser organism like a beatle, or a cat.

Speak for yourself.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k162/CatChew/Sheet/Fridgecat350pxl.jpg

Baptist here.
I see the practice of the generalization I spoke of is alive and well.

I live in the heart of the Baptist Bible Belt, and in my time as a Catholic, every time a Baptist ask me what denomination I was, I would say Catholic. Well that would get the following response.

1. Catholicism is Satan's Church
2. You're going to Hell for: worshipping Mary
worshipping the Saints
calling your priest "Father"
Calling the wafer and wine the blood and body of Christ.
3. Actually believing that Catholic thinks that the Pope is God
4. believing that Catholicism steams from a Pagan religion
5. Believing that the Whore of Babylon as spoken of in the Book of Revelation is talking about the Catholic Church

and really it just goes on from there.

I will not lie, I don't hate the Baptist, and I do forgive those who tried to 'save' me from the 'whore of Babylon', but honestly, Baptist in general have just left a bad taste in my mouth.

Okay, fine, most Baptists. Especially the ones I've met. And I've met TONS.

Sainnt Peter is walking a young man through heaven showing him around.

"Here is the place for Jehovah's witnesses, and over there are the Cathoilics, we have some places for Jews over here.

As they move on he riases a finger to his lips and says 'ssshhh' and point to a great door.

"What is in there?" says the young man?

Saint Peter replies "The Baptists, they think they are the only ones here."





I know there are a lot of Baptists who just come off really bad, and reeeaaallly arrogant.
But even some of the shittiest people have the best intentions.

I feel your pain.

Baptist here.
I see the practice of the generalization I spoke of is alive and well.

Your baptist?

Okay, fine, most Baptists. Especially the ones I've met. And I've met TONS.

They're like zombies here in the Bible Belt. They spread like hellish wildfire on crack, speed, and ecstasy. :p

I live in the heart of the Baptist Bible Belt, and in my time as a Catholic, every time a Baptist ask me what denomination I was, I would say Catholic. Well that would get the following response.

1. Catholicism is Satan's Church
2. You're going to Hell for: worshipping Mary
worshipping the Saints
calling your priest "Father"
Calling the wafer and wine the blood and body of Christ.
3. Actually believing that Catholic thinks that the Pope is God
4. believing that Catholicism steams from a Pagan religion
5. Believing that the Whore of Babylon as spoken of in the Book of Revelation is talking about the Catholic Church

and really it just goes on from there.

I will not lie, I don't hate the Baptist, and I do forgive those who tried to 'save' me from the 'whore of Babylon', but honestly, Baptist in general have just left a bad taste in my mouth.

Stop licking them.
i believe a lot of people are going to hell.
I just also happen to believe that a lot of baptists are going to hell to too.

I resent anyone who certain. Certainty is arrogance in matters of faith.

Your baptist?

Yeah!!
Feck man, I never want to meet the Baptists you people know, none of you are from Michigan I assume.

Yeah!!
Feck man, I never want to meet the Baptists you people know, none of you are from Michigan I assume.

Nope, apparently not.

The kind we describe are mostly from the Bible Belt...

Ifreann -- "The larger the group of people, the more likely it will have f***tarded members."

The problem is people, not religion.

This is the truest statement I've ever heard. There are 6.4 billion people on this planet and every single group on this planet has f***tarded members as you so state. Their motivation can be anything. A book, a movie, a religion, a cult, an ideology, a parent, or even something that doesn't exist.

There will always be hate. And hate is everywhere. Nutty Islamic terrorist groups, radical Christian doomday cults, ethnic gangs, left wing loonies, right wing wackos, eco-terrorists, radical feminists, a majority of conspiracy theorists, Neo-Nazis, a huge amount of communists, etc etc etc etc etc. They can get hate from anything and anyone. That's our human fault as a whole.

We can't stop hatred by accepting it or tolerating them. We all must show them they are just off the batty edge and we must stand up to them. That's the way to spread the truth about a religion or whatever that has the stereotype of this or that...

Tell me, if all the true Muslims actually said "Stop it you bastards or we'll gonna kick your ass" to all the terrorists that use the banner of religion for hatred, then the image of Islam would be better. I'm not talking about apologies for these groups too... like those who say "Oh this is against our blah blah blah BUT I can see the reason why they did it...blah blah blah" That's not standing up to them, that's showing the world that you won't do anything to stop them.

This is just me but, I cannot support any Palestinian state until they can get it through their heads that attacking Israel with Qussam rockets or suicide bombers is not a sign of resisitance, it's a sign of hatred. The Palestinians lost their homeland, and they didn't get it back in four wars. Time to move on. I know people might say that "Oh but those poor Palestinians are being oppressed by those evil Zionists Jews" and those people are ignorant. Israel left the Gaza Strip in an act of good will, and they get two kidnapped soldiers and border towns being rocketed daily.

Moderate Palestinians need to stand up to these terrorists scumbags who are just hurting their cause. If they want a state, they need to show that they can live with their Israeli neighbour, and they both need to tolerate each other.

I think the best example of moderate Muslims or any group really, fighting a radical faction is in Lebanon right now where Lebanonese soldiers are fighting and dying trying to destroy terrorist groups in these Palestinian camps in Lebanonese territory. The Lebanonese are trying to not only crush these terrorist scum, but they are also showing that there is a large moderate group fighting these people who perverted their faith.

We need more people like that. We need more Martin Luther King Jrs to show not only battle racist whites, but extremist blacks in fighting discrimination. We need more Ghandis (sorry for the spelling) to represent those poor and even those oppressed people from tyranny everywhere, showing that things can be done peacefully. We need more Churchills that are willing to fight for the right values against extremists. We need more John Paul IIs to bridge the gaps between other religious faiths.

We cannot tolerate intolerance. We cannot apologize for it. We need to fight it, and we need to do it peacefully, unless those intolerant ones are too far gone. Anyone can take a gun and shoot up something, but it takes true courage to fight for a cause without violence. Lol this completely kills the mood I have now, but a Rocky quote works for this. "Its not about the punches you swing, its about the punches you can take and still keep on going" or something like that.

Anyway, that's my opinion.

This is the truest statement I've ever heard. There are 6.4 billion people on this planet and every single group on this planet has f***tarded members as you so state. Their motivation can be anything. A book, a movie, a religion, a cult, an ideology, a parent, or even something that doesn't exist.

There will always be hate. And hate is everywhere. Nutty Islamic terrorist groups, radical Christian doomday cults, ethnic gangs, left wing loonies, right wing wackos, eco-terrorists, radical feminists, a majority of conspiracy theorists, Neo-Nazis, a huge amount of communists, etc etc etc etc etc. They can get hate from anything and anyone. That's our human fault as a whole.

We can't stop hatred by accepting it or tolerating them. We all must show them they are just off the batty edge and we must stand up to them. That's the way to spread the truth about a religion or whatever that has the stereotype of this or that...

Tell me, if all the true Muslims actually said "Stop it you bastards or we'll gonna kick your ass" to all the terrorists that use the banner of religion for hatred, then the image of Islam would be better. I'm not talking about apologies for these groups too... like those who say "Oh this is against our blah blah blah BUT I can see the reason why they did it...blah blah blah" That's not standing up to them, that's showing the world that you won't do anything to stop them.

This is just me but, I cannot support any Palestinian state until they can get it through their heads that attacking Israel with Qussam rockets or suicide bombers is not a sign of resisitance, it's a sign of hatred. The Palestinians lost their homeland, and they didn't get it back in four wars. Time to move on. I know people might say that "Oh but those poor Palestinians are being oppressed by those evil Zionists Jews" and those people are ignorant. Israel left the Gaza Strip in an act of good will, and they get two kidnapped soldiers and border towns being rocketed daily.

Moderate Palestinians need to stand up to these terrorists scumbags who are just hurting their cause. If they want a state, they need to show that they can live with their Israeli neighbour, and they both need to tolerate each other.

I think the best example of moderate Muslims or any group really, fighting a radical faction is in Lebanon right now where Lebanonese soldiers are fighting and dying trying to destroy terrorist groups in these Palestinian camps in Lebanonese territory. The Lebanonese are trying to not only crush these terrorist scum, but they are also showing that there is a large moderate group fighting these people who perverted their faith.

We need more people like that. We need more Martin Luther King Jrs to show not only battle racist whites, but extremist blacks in fighting discrimination. We need more Ghandis (sorry for the spelling) to represent those poor and even those oppressed people from tyranny everywhere, showing that things can be done peacefully. We need more Churchills that are willing to fight for the right values against extremists. We need more John Paul IIs to bridge the gaps between other religious faiths.

We cannot tolerate intolerance. We cannot apologize for it. We need to fight it, and we need to do it peacefully, unless those intolerant ones are too far gone. Anyone can take a gun and shoot up something, but it takes true courage to fight for a cause without violence. Lol this completely kills the mood I have now, but a Rocky quote works for this. "Its not about the punches you swing, its about the punches you can take and still keep on going" or something like that.

Anyway, that's my opinion.

Goddamn, you're long-winded...

But, still, this is the best post I've ever seen on this forum. I'm saving this.

Ya i agree, this is the best debate about religion i have read/ participated in. And there yet isnt anyone gloating anything about their religion and condeming anyone to hell. (Unless I missed it lol)

Nightkiller;12708717']Ya i agree, this is the best debate about religion i have read/ participated in. And there yet isnt anyone gloating anything about their religion and condeming anyone to hell. (Unless I missed it lol)

We just do that while you're sleeping and then delete all the messages. This topic really should be on page 24. ;) :)

We just do that while you're sleeping and then delete all the messages. This topic really should be on page 24. ;) :)

lol, well it jumped two pages while i was a school i see... but at least it stayed on topic(until now) so lets try to get it back lol. :)

Its double speak brought to you by the Ministry Of Truth

Sleep tonight knowing you made my day.:D

This is just me but, I cannot support any Palestinian state until they can get it through their heads that attacking Israel with Qussam rockets or suicide bombers is not a sign of resisitance, it's a sign of hatred. The Palestinians lost their homeland, and they didn't get it back in four wars. Time to move on. I know people might say that "Oh but those poor Palestinians are being oppressed by those evil Zionists Jews" and those people are ignorant. Israel left the Gaza Strip in an act of good will, and they get two kidnapped soldiers and border towns being rocketed daily.


That is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard said by anyone who isnt Isreali on the Gaza withdrawl. Even the most goose stepping DC hawk can admit the Isrealis screwed over the Palestinians on that withdrawl what amounted to subsequent economic blockade, they strangled Gaza so tightly that is was a massive Ghetto.

Merkava tanks and Apache attack choppers have guidence systems and fire control computers, they have well trained pilots and operators(all with combat experience) I personally can make a Katjooska and fire it, guidence is how much fuel I put in it. You make such a fucked up statement as the one you made, where hold NOT one fucking Isreali responisble for the deaths of Palestinians when they have the most sophisticated technology in the world at their fingertips and arguably the combat tested military in the last 20 years?
Where when compared over ten times the number of Palestinian civilians have died to Isrealis and yet the Isrealis can fucking aim?

Over ten times, not merely ten times.

I am an evangelical Christian, I believe Isreal has a divine right to that land, and I will be damned if I can stand up and defend how they treat the palestinians and call it logic or informed. Isreal has never released the choke hold on the palestinians and they always kept arab(non-jews) as second class citizens and until they take the boot off the neck of the palestinians then they get what they get.
You want to see this fight come to an end, equalize the ability of the palestinians to actually select a target. Give them precision munitions.

How dare you lay blame at the feet of people using fucking flying pipe bombs against tank and jets when trying to defend their home.

Not some imaginary home from some completely debatable anceint reference but homes that they can prove where theirs or a recently deceased relatives.
These people are not fighting for some abstract idea...they can point and say "I lived right there!!!" It is the Isrealis who need to share in this lesson of humility, yes the Palestinians need to stop the radicals from spoiling any peace offering that is reasonable, a reasonable offer hasnt been officially yet.

The moderates in this situation have suggested what needs to happen and they have been flatly ignored---a bi-national single state, not some seperatist bullshit.


Moderate Palestinians need to stand up to these terrorists scumbags who are just hurting their cause. If they want a state, they need to show that they can live with their Israeli neighbour, and they both need to tolerate each other.


And moderate Isrealis need to stand up to the Terrorists who are far more successful in their campaign of terror on the palestinians. Having more sophisticated weapons does not change that fact.
Terrorism is a tactic used clearly by the IDF.
Remember Terror is a tactic not an ideology.

So today after I did my observation at the hospital (occupational therapist), I got out of my uniform, ate lunch, took care of some business and then I went to my spot in the woods and meditated. While I was meditating, an interesting thought pop up. It seems like most religion have this small group of people (who are in the minority) who use the religion as a way to justify their hatred. This happens in Christianity, Islam, Asatru/Odinism, and several others. I mean if you look at the message of these religion, they all share similar message, like be good towards your fellow man, do not kill, steal, and be there for your family and friends etc. Despite the positive and good message that these religions may promote, some racist asshole will still try to twist it in a way to support their ignorant ideology.

What is interesting is that the people may try to distance themselves away from the loud and vocal minority, but somehow they always end up being grouped together with them. A good case of this is how since 9/11, rednecks and idiots seem to think that all Muslim and people of the Islamic faith are terrorist who'd blow you up, rape your daughter and kill your baby. The reason they keep on getting grouped up with these assholes is well, because they are loud, they are vocal, and they do tend to make themselves be heard, and like sheeps people tend to pay attention to them.

What can be done, I'm afraid not much, because there will always be assholes who'd use a religion that promotes peace and understanding among men and women, for their own twisted narrow-minded ideology. All we can do really is to learn about the religion ourselves and find out what they really teach and what the majority really believe.

The monotheistic religions bred absolute and dogmatic belief. They hold that God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient which in essence means that God cannot be flawed or incorrect: his divinity ensures that he is always right. So if you believe that God is divine, you must also hold that He is always correct. Thus, anyone who stands against your God must be wrong and must also be denying your God's divinity. It is not a massive leap of logic to hold that those who do that are evil: if God stands for all that is good, those who stand against him must stand for evil. This is what has bred religious violence throughout the centuries: one group holds that its interpretation is absolutely correct (as it is ordained by God) and thus all those who go against this opinion are inherently wrong and thus are evil in their ignorance of God's true word.

Thus, extremists in religions are not an abomination but are in fact those who decide to follow the dogmatism of religious thinking to its obvious conclusion. Religions cannot help but breed this dogmatism so long as they hold God to be divine. If they cease to hold God to be divine, then will cease to have any real reason to worship that God.

The monotheistic religions bred absolute and dogmatic belief. They hold that God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient which in essence means that God cannot be flawed or incorrect: his divinity ensures that he is always right. So if you believe that God is divine, you must also hold that He is always correct. Thus, anyone who stands against your God must be wrong and must also be denying your God's divinity. It is not a massive leap of logic to hold that those who do that are evil: if God stands for all that is good, those who stand against him must stand for evil. This is what has bred religious violence throughout the centuries: one group holds that its interpretation is absolutely correct (as it is ordained by God) and thus all those who go against this opinion are inherently wrong and thus are evil in their ignorance of God's true word.

Thus, extremists in religions are not an abomination but are in fact those who decide to follow the dogmatism of religious thinking to its obvious conclusion. Religions cannot help but breed this dogmatism so long as they hold God to be divine. If they cease to hold God to be divine, then will cease to have any real reason to worship that God.

Holy Crap!! He's right on the ball with that... plus nothing is perfect. If God was perfect then why did one of his angels challenge him. Tell me that, cause if he WAS perfect, then there would be no reason for a mutiny.

Saying that the Bible (Old and New Testaments together) is a statement of love is a fair statement.
Uhm, if you were using the bible itself as the basis of concept for the term "fair".