NationStates Jolt Archive

Sorry...I was assuming we were talking about sane jurisdictions that had no restrictions on abortions, except regarding extremely late term ones.

We are. And yet those jurisdictions still involve such laws. A late-term abortion in most places can be carried out for a gross chromosomal defect (ie. trisomy 18) or such a physical defect (ie. anencephaly). Such abortions would generally not be allowed for, say, PKU (a genetic disease that is easily treated with diet) or a facial deformity that is purely cosmetic. Some of these things can only be detected - especially with any certainty - fairly late in the pregnancy. And the law determines what deformities might warrant an abortion, although the ultimate choice of whether or not to do it in any of those cases is left up to the woman.


The fact that he did it? That he was there? He inserted his Tab A into her Slot B? Taking responsibility is admitting that YOU are at fault. YOU did do those actions, even if you cannot make amends, or do not need to make amends.

Is sex something you are always "guilty" of?

As I said, that is an adult decision, isn't it? Isn't what BEING an adult is about, admitting that your actions led to the current problem?

The woman may not see your actions as being a problem. If she does not feel you have harmed her, why should you feel that way?

If she feels that he would harm her or prevent her from carrying out her decision, that's one thing. But being an asshole, while childish, does not remove the mantel of adulthood from his shoulders (If it did, more than half the forum would be in trouble).

Flip it around, if he caught an STD (Let's say one that is harmless in women, but has an effect on guys) from her, doesn't he have an obligation to inform his partner that she is carrying this? Even if he doesn't want her to pay for the treatment or anything else, he should still tell her because she did help to cause the situation.

Yes, he should inform her - because, if she is a carrier, she can pass it on to others, and must be able to deal with that. Unless the guy in this case was convinced he was infertile or doesn't understand where babies come from, the same reasoning does not apply.

Again, because why should a woman have the power to strip that choice away from a guy?

What choice?

Didn't your parents ever tell you to make sure to admit to your own mistakes?

Yes, but they never told me I have to seek out others that made mistakes so that they can make an apology I don't even want.

Even if you didn't know you made them. Hell, just saying, "I'm sorry" might be the only response needed, but at least the guy is doing SOMETHING to admit he made a mistake.

If that response was needed, she'd go to him to get it. If you don't know you made a mistake, you obviously have no responsibility to apologize for it.

And, once again, is sex always a mistake? If not, then sex resulting in a known possible consequence isn't necessarily a mistake either. Unless the guy insisted on sex without precautionary measures, it is likely that no "mistake" was made. It was simply an unfortunate circumstance.

Well, 1. Again, if you make a mistake, you need to own up to it. THAT is basic morality. 2. How can someone learn from their mistakes if they are never told about them? 3. Finally, again, taking ownership of your actions is part of being an adult. Only children hide from their actions. Now, the guy might hide. He might say, "Nut-uh", he might say, "Well, damn. I'll support you in whatever you need. And I will pay for this as well" or whatever. But it is not the woman's choice whether or not he should be allowed to be an adult or not. THAT is HIS option.

She isn't deciding whether or not he "should be allowed to be an adult." She is deciding the extent to which she wants him in her life.

No, you need to rethink. Because it's:

A: The man has his choice of admitting to his mistakes taken away from him.
B: The Woman has her choice about her own body taken away from her.

Do you really think the choice to feel guilty about something one may not need to feel guilt over and the choice of CONTROLLING ONE'S OWN BODY are equivalent?

You're the one who seems to think that men are not adults and shouldn't have to deal with the consequences of their own actions because their sexual partners should keep them safe from having to know about those consequences.

I haven't seen Neesika claiming that men shouldn't be told to "protect" them. That seems to be something you've come up with in your own head. She has simply stated that the woman's actions are her own choice. What she tells the man about what is happening to her body is her own choice.

The other person has no such right to be stripped of in the first place, no matter how much wishful thinking you dispense in that direction.
Oh? Why? Since when do men not have the right to be treated as an adult?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12699873&postcount=240

Kyronea, I am fine with his beliefs AS BELIEFS. But up until very recently, Nervun has presented his beliefs as MUSTS and RIGHTS. Now he has acknowledged that at best, there is a moral 'should' ...which I can agree with. That changes things quite significantly. I will absolutely not back down on the former...never, ever should it be forced upon women to inform.

Okay. Fine. As I said, I agree with you, and I do now see why you were being harsh.

Forgive me...I just wish people would learn how to debate without emotion, without vitrol and rancor and all sorts of other vile insults and what-have-yous. I then snapped on you, which I should not have. For that I do apologize.

Heh...I complain about people acting childish yet I go and do the very same thing...it's really quite odd how hypocritical humans can be, eh?

A man has the right to take responsibility, to own up, for HIS actions.

And as we've been telling you, no matter how much you may wish he had that right in "lala"-land, in real life in the context of the knowledge of a pregnancy or not he doesn't. No matter how many times you repeat your absurd claim, no matter how many times you close your eyes and click the heals of your ruby slippers, Dorothy, it ain't gonna be true.

I haven't seen Neesika claiming that men shouldn't be told to "protect" them. That seems to be something you've come up with in your own head. She has simply stated that the woman's actions are her own choice. What she tells the man about what is happening to her body is her own choice.
Halle-fucking-lujah.

To say a woman who has an abortion "makes a choice" for someone implies that this someone had a choice to make to begin with. He didn't. He never did. He never had the choice to take control of whether a fetus got birthed or not. It was never his choice at all, so how could that choice be made for him?
He was there. He DID do the deed.

But it's not if she gets the abortion that is the choice. It is the choice of how the guy deals with the consequences of his own actions.

This dealing doesn't have to have ANYTHING to do with the woman. It might be all internal, but if he doesn't know, how can he be said to have delt with it?

I'm assuming the answer for pro-lifer's is a no-brainer, but I'm willing to accept that there might be women out there that are pro-life yet would still have an aborition in certain circumstances. My question is more aimed at pro-choice women, such as myself. Being pro-choice doesn't necessarily mean that you yourself would actually have an abortion (which may shock some of you rednecks out there). So, would YOU have an abortion? If so, under what circumstances?



Never!

Oh, I read it and it was a bunch of tripe. What is needed here to get the point across with you would be one of those images of a uterus and a crying boy with the text "Can't have it. Not yours!" over it.
No, looking at your response last page it's pretty obvious you didn't.

Okay. Fine. As I said, I agree with you, and I do now see why you were being harsh.

Forgive me...I just wish people would learn how to debate without emotion, without vitrol and rancor and all sorts of other vile insults and what-have-yous. I then snapped on you, which I should not have. For that I do apologize. Oh god woman (assuming gender, sorry if I'm wrong)...I wouldn't bother with NSG if what you described every came to pass :D

Heh...I complain about people acting childish yet I go and do the very same thing...it's really quite odd how hypocritical humans can be, eh? Not odd at all. We're all hypocrites in our own ways. It's just fun when we deny it.

*sighs* Look, I'll repeat myself yet again:

1. A woman has the right to decide whatever the hell she feel like regarding what to do with a pregnancy. She does NOT have to accept, respect, take into consideration, or even LISTEN to what her male partner wants or offers, be it support, money, or a ride to the clinic. That is HER right as an adult, to make those choices and (most importantly of all) take the responsibility for her actions.

2. A man has the right to take responsibility, to own up, for HIS actions. He's ability to make amends is; however, limited to what the woman decides, but she cannot deny him the right to own up to his own actions.

Example, a woman can just email the bloke and say, "I'm pregnant. I'm aborting. I don't want to see or hear from you ever again" and that is fine. She has given him the opportunity to deal with his actions and she has made HER choice.

But for her to say, "No, I won't tell him because... (Well, actually we HAVEN'T gotten a good reason why not)" strips him of his right to be an adult.

One adult cannot remove the rights of another.

Where the fuck does this "right" come from? I have never heard of this "right". HOwever, even if i were to concede this right exists, which is so nonsensically vague as to be undefineable, it doesn't matter in the slightest. Why? Because if it is the woman's right to determine whether or not the pregnancy continues, his right to "take responsibility" ONLY applies to that which exists for him to take responsibility FOR. This "right to take responsibility" does not in any way apply to a pregnancy that is no more nor a child that shall never be.

What is his responsibility that he has the right to take over a terminated pregnancy and a dead fetus? He has no rights, no interest, not control or demand over that which is not.

What responsibility does he have over a pregnancy that has been aborted? Moreover, how would he have the right own up to his actions while simultaniously the result of his actions, the pregnancy, is fully in control of the woman? A pregnancy, again, is not a shared act, it's not something one can compromise on. It's an either/or proposition. Either she has full, and TOTAL responsibility and control over the pregnancy, or he does. There is no sharing of responsibility, no sharing of control.

And since you have conceded that the woman has FULL control over that pregnancy, the man CAN NOT by definition have any rights to it. Because a right is only a right when it a) is inalienable and b) can be exercised. And if he has a right to that pregnancy, he can exercise that that right, then he can deny a woman exercising control in those aspects, because by definition people can't have two equal, and competing rights. One must trump the other. So the only way you can argue that that men have ANY rights in a pregnancy is if you argue that men's rights to a pregnancy in some regards trump women's rights in a pregnancy.

Is that what you want to argue? That a man's rights can trump a woman's rights in pregnancy? Because if not, then this "right" in regards to a pregnancy is only as valuable as the woman wishes to make it.

Oh? Why?

http://www.eapcrackerbarrel.com/images/CryingBoy.gif
No, you can't have one!
http://www.uterus1.com/images/anatomy_uterus.jpg
Not yours!

Since when do men not have the right to be treated as an adult?

Adults do not have the right to know what other people do not wish to tell them, big shock as it may be to you.

But it's not if she gets the abortion that is the choice. It is the choice of how the guy deals with the consequences of his own actions.


Again, I addressed this.

What is the consequences of the guy's actions? The pregnancy. How does he deal with it if that pregnancy has been terminated?

How does he have the right to deal with the pregnancy that is aborted? What "dealing" can he do? Seriously, I want to know what responsibility a man can have in an aborted pregnancy. Do you want the right to eat the fetus?

Oh god woman (assuming gender, sorry if I'm wrong)...I wouldn't bother with NSG if what you described every came to pass :D

Biologically, I am male. Mentally, I switch between the two at will, so I consequentely seem female quite often online. It is a minor error that does not offend me in the least.

Anyway, I guess you're right...half the fun is watching random people being eaten alive by others. It just bugs me occasionally when I see two people I respect going after each other like two sides of an angry mob.

Not odd at all. We're all hypocrites in our own ways. It's just fun when we deny it.
True...true.

Is sex something you are always "guilty" of?
Guilty in the legal sense (as in you did the deed), not in the "I feel guilty" part.

The woman may not see your actions as being a problem. If she does not feel you have harmed her, why should you feel that way?
That's not the woman's choice on if I feel guilty or not. But by not telling, she is taking away the guy's decision on feeling guilty or not.

Yes, he should inform her - because, if she is a carrier, she can pass it on to others, and must be able to deal with that. Unless the guy in this case was convinced he was infertile or doesn't understand where babies come from, the same reasoning does not apply.
Guys carry sperm. They can pass them on to other women. Maybe he was taking something he thought would prevent pregnancy. Maybe he thought that withdrawal would work. Who knows? His actions did lead to her getting pregnant and honestly I don't see a good reason (again, excepting the issue of rape or abuse) why she should have the right to not inform.

What choice?
To be an adult. Again, adultness doesn't require two people, but it does require knowledge and experience and I view denying both to be very wrong.

Yes, but they never told me I have to seek out others that made mistakes so that they can make an apology I don't even want.
You don't have to listen or accept the apology. IM the guy for all I care.

But don't people have the right to act like adults?

If that response was needed, she'd go to him to get it. If you don't know you made a mistake, you obviously have no responsibility to apologize for it.
Lack of knowledge does not equal a lack of responsibility. Or to put it another way, as the Mods are so fond of saying, just because you didn't know the rules does not excuse you from them.

And, once again, is sex always a mistake? If not, then sex resulting in a known possible consequence isn't necessarily a mistake either. Unless the guy insisted on sex without precautionary measures, it is likely that no "mistake" was made. It was simply an unfortunate circumstance.
Mistake might be the wrong word to use, but even if there is unfortunate circumstances, you still have to deal with them because they were YOUR actions.

She isn't deciding whether or not he "should be allowed to be an adult." She is deciding the extent to which she wants him in her life.
Again, she does not have to actually listen to him. She can just say, "Never darken my doorstep again" or other such dramatic lines. She doesn't even need to say she is aborting, but in deciding to hide knowledge about HIS actions, she is denying him that opportunity.

Do you really think the choice to feel guilty about something one may not need to feel guilt over and the choice of CONTROLLING ONE'S OWN BODY are equivalent?
I think both are removing choices for the other. The later is more serious than the former as it involves physical restraints, but the former is also reprehensible.

I haven't seen Neesika claiming that men shouldn't be told to "protect" them. That seems to be something you've come up with in your own head. She has simply stated that the woman's actions are her own choice. What she tells the man about what is happening to her body is her own choice.
And what is happening to her body (the pregnancy) is the result of HIS actions. Do not people need to take responsibility for their own actions?

...

Okay, at first I was wholly with Neesika on this, but she and NERVUN are both being ridiculously childish.

Look, NERVUN, you are both correct and incorrect. When there is a solid relationship with emotional ties, the woman should tell the man. But in other circumstances, such as one-night stands, the woman does not have to inform the man, because he doesn't really have any responsibility to take. That's the end of the story.

Furthermore, Neesika, you are being far too harsh about every little thing that is even slightly out of alignment with your own personal beliefs, and then you mock them for accusing you of exactly what you're doing? Come on!

Now, I apologize if I offended any of you with this, but please...if you're going to discuss adult matters and adult maturity, act like adults for fuck's sake!
Yes Mommy. :p

I'll calm down a bit. It's only a board, it's only a board, it's only a board. :D

I'm pro-choice and yes I'd have an abortion, but only under certain circumstances (only if I was raped or if my life was in danger). If I simply got pregnant by someone that I had a relationship with, no. Then again, I love children (I already have one, and I want more in the future) so that's just my opinion. :cool:

As for other people's choice, that's their life and their business. People act as if pregnancy is easy, and it's not -- at least not for everybody. It took my body almost 4 years to feel "normal" again after having my daughter -- I wouldn't want to force that on ANY woman. Why go through all that when you don't want to, and when you don't HAVE to? Really...

Heh...I complain about people acting childish yet I go and do the very same thing...it's really quite odd how hypocritical humans can be, eh?
Heh... what fools these mortals be.

It took my body almost 4 years to feel "normal" again after having my daughter --

Tell me about it...though I AM grateful for the hips and ass I got from it :D

OK here's why your argument is bullshit. You conced that men shouldn't have a say in IF the pregnancy goes forward, right?

So as far as I can figure, your argument is somewhere along the lines of "his actions resulted in a pregnancy, he has the right to know what occured as a result of his actions."

He has the right to know that since he did X, Y occured. Even if he can't do anything ABOUT Y, even if he has no control of what happens WITH Y, he has the right to know Y occured because he did X. He screwed the girl, she got pregnant, he has the right to know she got pregnant as a result of his actions.

This is stupid. If someone had the 'right" to know every consequence of every action, it would be absurd.

If i ask a woman out and she refuses she would be obligated to tell me what I did that made her refuse.

if I apply for a job and I don't get hired, the employer would be obligated to tell me what I did that made him not hire me.

If my girlfriend pisses me off, I'd be required to tell her that I'm upset.

If some dude cuts me off on the highway and causes me to spill coffee on myself as I brake, I'd be obligated to tell him this.

If I have this bizaare "right" to know the consequences of every action I take so that I might...be aware/mentally come to grips with it/use it to form a philosophy of life death and the universe, we would get nothing done. All of human existance would be spent with "I must inform you that as a direct or indirect result of your actions, the following has occured"

Where the fuck does this "right" come from? I have never heard of this "right". HOwever, even if i were to concede this right exists, which is so nonsensically vague as to be undefineable, it doesn't matter in the slightest. Why? Because if it is the woman's right to determine whether or not the pregnancy continues, his right to "take responsibility" ONLY applies to that which exists for him to take responsibility FOR. This "right to take responsibility" does not in any way apply to a pregnancy that is no more nor a child that shall never be.

What is his responsibility that he has the right to take over a terminated pregnancy and a dead fetus? He has no rights, no interest, not control or demand over that which is not.

What responsibility does he have over a pregnancy that has been aborted? Moreover, how would he have the right own up to his actions while simultaniously the result of his actions, the pregnancy, is fully in control of the woman? A pregnancy, again, is not a shared act, it's not something one can compromise on. It's an either/or proposition. Either she has full, and TOTAL responsibility and control over the pregnancy, or he does. There is no sharing of responsibility, no sharing of control.

And since you have conceded that the woman has FULL control over that pregnancy, the man CAN NOT by definition have any rights to it. Because a right is only a right when it a) is inalienable and b) can be exercised. And if he has a right to that pregnancy, he can exercise that that right, then he can deny a woman exercising control in those aspects, because by definition people can't have two equal, and competing rights. One must trump the other. So the only way you can argue that that men have ANY rights in a pregnancy is if you argue that men's rights to a pregnancy in some regards trump women's rights in a pregnancy.

Is that what you want to argue? That a man's rights can trump a woman's rights in pregnancy? Because if not, then this "right" in regards to a pregnancy is only as valuable as the woman wishes to make it.
I think you misunderstood what I am saying. When I speak of responsibility, it means admiting to and dealing with the consequences of your own actions. However the guy chooses to do so is HIS business. However a woman does so is HER business. Maybe all he can do is admit to himself that he fucked up (literally), but he can't do that unless she tells him about the pregnancy. How she deals with it after that is up to her and her alone.

But he can't deal with something he doesn't know anything about.

Heh... what fools these mortals be.

yes they are, all so Humans are so easily manipulated wouldn’t you agree?

Adults do not have the right to know what other people do not wish to tell them, big shock as it may be to you.
So adults don't have to be responsible for their own actions?

I think you misunderstood what I am saying. When I speak of responsibility, it means admiting to and dealing with the consequences of your own actions. However the guy chooses to do so is HIS business. However a woman does so is HER business. Maybe all he can do is admit to himself that he fucked up (literally), but he can't do that unless she tells him about the pregnancy. How she deals with it after that is up to her and her alone.

But he can't deal with something he doesn't know anything about.

Why is that a problem? You want to deny the ability of a woman to choose not to tell a man that he got her pregnant, as well the opportunity for her to bear the responsibility for that action. Why is the woman's choice less important than the man's opportunity here?

Oh indeed I just recalled. A few days ago on the boston metro I had my laptop bag slung over my shoulder and a pair of sunglasses in the bag. A very packed train and a lot of hussle and bussle, I find my sunglasses have broken.

SOMEONE in that train bumped into me and broke my sunglasses. That person must thus be informed of the consequences of his or her actions so that he or she may take responsibility for it.

Now all I have to do is go from person to person through the city of boston and inform each and every person that he or she may have broken my sunglasses so that he or she may take what he or she feels is appropriate responsibility.

I hope to god that he/she wasn't a tourist.....

I think you misunderstood what I am saying. When I speak of responsibility, it means admiting to and dealing with the consequences of your own actions.

Then the person who broke my sunglasses has a right to be informed so that he/she may admit to it and deal with it.

How do you suggest I go tracking this person down? Door to door? Should I put up fliers? Take an ad on public television?

*snip*

*is gleefully and immaturely waiting for Nervun to deal with this point*

Again, I addressed this.

What is the consequences of the guy's actions? The pregnancy. How does he deal with it if that pregnancy has been terminated?

How does he have the right to deal with the pregnancy that is aborted? What "dealing" can he do? Seriously, I want to know what responsibility a man can have in an aborted pregnancy. Do you want the right to eat the fetus?
No, but it took an awful lot of soul searching and thinking before I came to grips and dealt emotionally and mentally when I got my (then) girlfriend pregnant she she decided to abort.

Because, yeah, guess what, I DID get her knocked up (even if it was a failure of her birth control pills that done it). I had to admit that it did happen, that I could not just pretend that it didn't happen. That is where the responsibility lies and the paying for the abortion and taking her down and caring for her was besides the fact.

No, but it took an awful lot of soul searching and thinking before I came to grips and dealt emotionally and mentally when I got my (then) girlfriend pregnant she she decided to abort.

Thus I journey to find the person who broke my sunglasses so that he or she may come to grips and emotionally and mentally deal with the destruction of my precious occulor protection devices!

Guilty in the legal sense (as in you did the deed), not in the "I feel guilty" part.

Then what is there to apologize or "take responsibility" for if you have nothing to feel guilty about?

That's not the woman's choice on if I feel guilty or not. But by not telling, she is taking away the guy's decision on feeling guilty or not.

By not telling she is not telling. The guy can feel guilty about sex all he likes.

Guys carry sperm. They can pass them on to other women. Maybe he was taking something he thought would prevent pregnancy. Maybe he thought that withdrawal would work. Who knows? His actions did lead to her getting pregnant and honestly I don't see a good reason (again, excepting the issue of rape or abuse) why she should have the right to not inform.

Because she is an adult and thus has the right to determine her own actions? She has the right to determine whether or not she wants to tell anyone that she is pregnant. She has the right to determine what actions she will take regarding the pregnancy.

You or I can look at a situation and say, "She should tell him," just as we could look at a situation and say, "She should abort/not abort." But, in the end, all the "should"s we might put out there are irrelevant. She has the right to make those decisions.

Personally, absent extenuating circumstances, I think a woman should generally not only tell the father about an unplanned pregnancy, but discuss all the options with him as well. The ultimate choice must always be hers, but I think the two should at least discuss it. However, if she has already decided that nothing he says will make any difference, I see no reason why she should do it.

To be an adult. Again, adultness doesn't require two people, but it does require knowledge and experience and I view denying both to be very wrong.

A man who is going to act like an adult is going to be acting like an adult whether he is told about this situation or not.

You don't have to listen or accept the apology. IM the guy for all I care.

But don't people have the right to act like adults?

Of course, and should do so in any given situation. But if a man is never told about a pregnancy, there is no need for him to "act like an adult" about it. The woman has decided that she wants him to have no part in it at all.

Lack of knowledge does not equal a lack of responsibility.

It does when there is nothing you can do about the situation in the first place. If the woman has determined that she wants nothing from the man, offers of an apology/money/etc. would really be nothing but empty words.

Mistake might be the wrong word to use, but even if there is unfortunate circumstances, you still have to deal with them because they were YOUR actions.

There is no way a man can deal with this particular unfortunate circumstance unless the woman wants to involve him. He can't get pregnant.

Again, she does not have to actually listen to him. She can just say, "Never darken my doorstep again" or other such dramatic lines. She doesn't even need to say she is aborting, but in deciding to hide knowledge about HIS actions, she is denying him that opportunity.

What opportunity? The opportunity to speak meaningless words and then go back to his life? The opportunity to feel guilty about something that she does not feel he is at fault for?

OK here's why your argument is bullshit. You conced that men shouldn't have a say in IF the pregnancy goes forward, right?

So as far as I can figure, your argument is somewhere along the lines of "his actions resulted in a pregnancy, he has the right to know what occured as a result of his actions."

He has the right to know that since he did X, Y occured. Even if he can't do anything ABOUT Y, even if he has no control of what happens WITH Y, he has the right to know Y occured because he did X. He screwed the girl, she got pregnant, he has the right to know she got pregnant as a result of his actions.

This is stupid. If someone had the 'right" to know every consequence of every action, it would be absurd.

If i ask a woman out and she refuses she would be obligated to tell me what I did that made her refuse.

if I apply for a job and I don't get hired, the employer would be obligated to tell me what I did that made him not hire me.

If my girlfriend pisses me off, I'd be required to tell her that I'm upset.

If some dude cuts me off on the highway and causes me to spill coffee on myself as I brake, I'd be obligated to tell him this.

If I have this bizaare "right" to know the consequences of every action I take so that I might...be aware/mentally come to grips with it/use it to form a philosophy of life death and the universe, we would get nothing done. All of human existance would be spent with "I must inform you that as a direct or indirect result of your actions, the following has occured"
So lets look at it the other war, she doesn't tell him and he never learns from his mistakes. Oh dear, there's a problem now isn't there.

Yeah, you DO have the right to know about your actions because how else do you actually manage to grow up?

And pregnancy is a wee bit more serious than, say, spilling coffee on yourself, don'tcha think?

I'm pro-choice and yes I'd have an abortion, but only under certain circumstances (only if I was raped or if my life was in danger). If I simply got pregnant by someone that I had a relationship with, no. Then again, I love children (I already have one, and I want more in the future) so that's just my opinion. :cool:

As for other people's choice, that's their life and their business. People act as if pregnancy is easy, and it's not -- at least not for everybody. It took my body almost 4 years to feel "normal" again after having my daughter -- I wouldn't want to force that on ANY woman. Why go through all that when you don't want to, and when you don't HAVE to? Really...

That's definitely true. Even nowadays with modern medicine pregnancies can still be ridiculously dangerous for some people. I once recall someone saying that all women should be forced to carry any child to term no matter what the state of the foetus(such as genetical defects, up to and including those really nasty ones that will essentially kill the baby shortly after birth) or the health of the mother, and it really disgusted me especially because it was a mother who was saying it. I couldn't understand how someone who had gone through pregnancy could say that...but then I myself still have somewhat of a difficult time even understanding pregnancy, since I will never be pregnant.

One interesting thing about NERVUN's argument brings up an unusual situation that I think he barely brushed over but should be touched upon: what about circumstances in which the man has had a vasectomy but it failed/reversed itself, which has happened, and impregnates the woman, who then proceeds not to inform the man? That man will continue to believe he is incapable of impregnating women when in fact he is, and it could be a problem further on down the line.

...

No, wait...he'd have told the woman if that were the case and then she--unless she was a truly heartless woman, which is unlikely--would then have informed him, so I think I just invalidated the situation.

So adults don't have to be responsible for their own actions?

The medical decisions of other people are not your responsibility, and no, you do not have the right to know everything. No "adult" does. For someone claiming a right to claim to be "treated as an adult", you sure don't seem to demand that people be treated as adults. You demand that people be treated as if they had more rights than other adults have.

I shall repeat it once more, since you seem to be ignorant of this simple fact: no, the medical decisions of other people are not your responsibility and, no, you do not have the right to know everything. No adult does. So stop demanding to be treated like no adult anywhere is.

Why is that a problem? You want to deny the ability of a woman to choose not to tell a man that he got her pregnant, as well the opportunity for her to bear the responsibility for that action. Why is the woman's choice less important than the man's opportunity here?
Why is it her choice to take that responsibility away?

Then the person who broke my sunglasses has a right to be informed so that he/she may admit to it and deal with it.

How do you suggest I go tracking this person down? Door to door? Should I put up fliers? Take an ad on public television?
As previously noted, 1. Pregnancy is a bit more serious (and costly) than broken sunglasses. 2. I already allowed for if she could find the guy.

*is gleefully and immaturely waiting for Nervun to deal with this point*
Done.

And pregnancy is a wee bit more serious than, say, spilling coffee on yourself, don'tcha think?

ahhh, but herein lies the problem.

To YOU, perhaps. On the other hand you might be an unsympathetic asshole who couldn't give a shit whether or not the one night stand you poked decides to get your little legacy scraped out of her uterus.

Myself, on the other hand, having lost a lovely pair of raybands as a child might feel extremely badly about destroying someone elses pair of sunglasses.

As such, the fact that I broke someone's sunglasses may be far more important to ME than the fact that one of your little swimmers got lucky is important to YOU

And once you start throwing words around like "rights" you don't get to talk about "seriousness" or not. Seriousness is subjective, but rights are not. Rights are never subjective. You may be the most brilliant orator on the planet, and I may not be able to talk about anything other than cheese and farts. But you get to speak just as much as I get to speak, and we don't get to argue about whose speech is "more serious".

Rights apply, universally and equally. Otherwise it's not a right. If you try to argue something is a right, you don't get to decide who gets the pleasure of enjoying that right based on your subjective view of what is more "important" or "serious"

Why is it her choice to take that responsibility away?

Because, like all other adults, she can exercise her reason and judgment to make a decision. My question still stands, why is the man's opportunity more important than the woman's choice? Do you really want to say that a man' opportunity to grow is more important than allowing women to make a choice?

Or, are you looking for a reason that a woman would make such a choice?

So lets look at it the other war, she doesn't tell him and he never learns from his mistakes. Oh dear, there's a problem now isn't there.

Are you suggesting that most men don't know that a woman may become pregnant when he has sex with her and does not take on that risk by doing so?

Are you suggesting that the woman did not knowingly take on this same risk?

Why is it her choice to take that responsibility away?

It is her choice to decide her own actions. If you aren't advocating somehow forcing the woman to tell him, then you are admitting that, no matter how reprehensible you might find it, she has the right to withhold this information.

Done.

Hahahaha...hardly. My god man. Seriously.

I can get a chemical abortion for $89.99. Raybans are much more expensive :P

As previously noted, 1. Pregnancy is a bit more serious (and costly) than broken sunglasses.

Utterly irrelevant once you start talking about rights. If you define something as a right, you lose the ability to discuss that right in terms of seriousness. You don't get the pleasure of enjoying your rights when I do not because you decide your enjoyment is more serious

2. I already allowed for if she could find the guy.

Oh I suppose I could follow the guy home if I saw him do it, must i inform him then (remember, once you start talking about rights, the 'seriousness" of the act, being subjective, becomes irrelevant)

in fact, I can twist this some more. I may not care one way or another if a girl I got pregnant gets an abortion, but may be deeply bothered if I learned that i broke someone's sunglasses, and would desperately like to make amends should I hear about it.

What happens under your scheme of "rights" is that when it comes to my actions, I have the right to be told about a consequence I don't give a shit about, but NOT be told about the consequence that I DO care about.

Who is this NERVUN person to decide what is and is not important and serious to me? If you define a right as I have the right ot be told what is seriousness and life effecting, I get to decide what is serious to me, not you. You can't define a right as "people need to be told about the serius consequences of their actions" and then decide for them what they deem to be serious.

Then what is there to apologize or "take responsibility" for if you have nothing to feel guilty about?
Do you actually HAVE to feel guilty for your actions to admit to them?

If I drink up the last of the milk and my wife asks me if I did or not, I don't feel guilty in admitting it, but I should say that I did so, right?

By not telling she is not telling. The guy can feel guilty about sex all he likes.
It's not the sex, it's the results of the sex.

Because she is an adult and thus has the right to determine her own actions? She has the right to determine whether or not she wants to tell anyone that she is pregnant. She has the right to determine what actions she will take regarding the pregnancy.
Of course she has the right to her own actions regarding the pregnancy, but what right does she have in controlling his actions?

You or I can look at a situation and say, "She should tell him," just as we could look at a situation and say, "She should abort/not abort." But, in the end, all the "should"s we might put out there are irrelevant. She has the right to make those decisions.
As noted, I can't make anyone do anything, but I still feel that she should tell him as not doing so is taking away his responsibility.

Personally, absent extenuating circumstances, I think a woman should generally not only tell the father about an unplanned pregnancy, but discuss all the options with him as well. The ultimate choice must always be hers, but I think the two should at least discuss it. However, if she has already decided that nothing he says will make any difference, I see no reason why she should do it.
Because it's not her decision about how he will deal with it, it is his. But he cannot deal with it if he doesn't know. I have a feeling that we are misunderstanding each other. When I speak of responsibility, that is not a two way street, it doesn't mean he has to offer her ANYTHING nor does she have to accept ANYTHING. Actually taking responsibility is a personal decision and has to do with dealing yourself with your own actions.

A man who is going to act like an adult is going to be acting like an adult whether he is told about this situation or not.
Sometimes you never know if you are a man or a mouse until a piece of cheese is placed before you.

Of course, and should do so in any given situation. But if a man is never told about a pregnancy, there is no need for him to "act like an adult" about it. The woman has decided that she wants him to have no part in it at all.
The problem being is that he has already had a part in it.

It does when there is nothing you can do about the situation in the first place. If the woman has determined that she wants nothing from the man, offers of an apology/money/etc. would really be nothing but empty words.
As noted, she doesn't have to accept or even listen to it. But it is his choice to make those offers or not.

There is no way a man can deal with this particular unfortunate circumstance unless the woman wants to involve him. He can't get pregnant.

He WAS there though. Unless you're at a fertility clinic, this was something that the both did.

What opportunity? The opportunity to speak meaningless words and then go back to his life? The opportunity to feel guilty about something that she does not feel he is at fault for?
To know the results of his own actions.

Because, like all other adults, she can exercise her reason and judgment to make a decision. My question still stands, why is the man's opportunity more important than the woman's choice? Do you really want to say that a man' opportunity to grow is more important than allowing women to make a choice?
Because both are a choice.

Or, are you looking for a reason that a woman would make such a choice?
There's that. No one has yet to give me a good reason why not.

To know the results of his own actions.

and I will ask once again. If breaking somebody's sunglasses is something I feel is very serious, and something I would very much like to know occured, and that it is very important to me to know this, do I have the right to be informed?

If yes, we have now ground society to a halt as we now must tell everyone of everything lest we accidentally not inform them of something they would have considered it very important to know.

If no, then it's not a right, and you should stop calling it such.

There's that. No one has yet to give me a good reason why not.

Because unless you can demonstrate he has a RIGHT to know, which you have failed MISERABLY at, then, since he has no right "I did not feel like telling him" is perfectly sufficient.

If he has no right to know, then any reason is siffucient, because he didn't have the right to know.

If he does have the right to know, then I have the right to know that someone broke my sunglasses, and we have ground society to a halt.

Of the two outcomes I think "he doesn't have the right" is by far the more preferable, and more reasonable choice.

Are you suggesting that most men don't know that a woman may become pregnant when he has sex with her and does not take on that risk by doing so?

Are you suggesting that the woman did not knowingly take on this same risk?
No, I am saying that he SHOULD know the risk involved, but if he doesn't find out that something happened, how does he know the consequences of the action?

You should know the risk of driving, but if no one told you that you sideswiped a car, how would you know not to do that particular turn again?

It is her choice to decide her own actions. If you aren't advocating somehow forcing the woman to tell him, then you are admitting that, no matter how reprehensible you might find it, she has the right to withhold this information.
*sighs* Dempublicents, I personally find it very reprehensible that a woman's right to choose an abortion or not is denied to a number of women all around the world. I can argue till I'm blue in the face that a woman has the right to choose and should be allowed to choose (and have done so), but that doesn't mean those places will suddenly allow said women their rights.

Rights are, sadly, non-existent.

Because both are a choice.
The question still stands, then. You want to deny the woman a choice to give the man a choice, why is one more important than the other?

Hahahaha...hardly. My god man. Seriously.

I can get a chemical abortion for $89.99. Raybans are much more expensive :P
Sadly not all of us live in enlightened cultures. If you don't get Plan B on time in the US, a trip to the clinic is around $500.

I admit that the last pair of Raybands I looked at were $250 so it is quite possible that they are now more expensive.

Is it just me, or are you ignoring Neo Art's points, Nervun?

and I will ask once again. If breaking somebody's sunglasses is something I feel is very serious, and something I would very much like to know occured, and that it is very important to me to know this, do I have the right to be informed?
Yes.

If yes, we have now ground society to a halt as we now must tell everyone of everything lest we accidentally not inform them of something they would have considered it very important to know.
Why would it be ground to a halt? I stepped on someone else's bag, should I not say so then and there? Your attempt to reduce to the ridiculous loses more and more.

Is it just me, or are you ignoring Neo Art's points, Nervun?

Apparently admitting that no adult has the right to know everything is hard to do. Neesika, would you like to know who fucked me a couple of days ago? Well, I'm not gonna tell you! And you can't make me! *neener, neener, neener* :p

Is it just me, or are you ignoring Neo Art's points, Nervun?
Nope, it's just that I'm having to respond to about 5 different posters in between other things and it takes a bit of time, especially as he keep posting every two minutes. :p

oh, of course, let's not ignore the very big wrench in this whole problem. If a man has a right to know then the woman has an obligation to tell him. If this is true, then she MUST speak.

Thus you have compelled speech.

Congratulations, you just violated the first amendment.

Yes. Oh for the love of...

What the hell are you thinking? I mean, seriously? Where is this 'right to be informed of every thing done to you' come from? If you concede that 'serious' is subjective, but still want to argue there is some sort of right to be informed...where are you pulling this right out of? I mean...I've got a pretty good idea...but I'm sure you think it's coming from somewhere more noble than your arse.

Congratulations, you just violated the first amendment.

Which is hardly universal, but it is true that freedom of speech also includes freedom of no speech.

Apparently admitting that no adult has the right to know everything is hard to do. Neesika, would you like to know who fucked me a couple of days ago? Well, I'm not gonna tell you! And you can't make me! *neener, neener, neener* :p

But, but...since I'm enamoured of you*, and hearing about your sexual escapades with others has the potential to make me sad, then I have a RIGHT TO KNOW!!! I DO! NERVUN SAYS SO!!!!

*of course, in a purely platonic way, and the rest is bollocks

Yes.


Why would it be ground to a halt? I stepped on someone else's bag, should I not say so then and there? Your attempt to reduce to the ridiculous loses more and more.

....you don't see how someone to be required to tell another person of every single result of every single action that impacts that person would not ground everything to a halt?

That's what you've asked for, the right to know the consequences of my actions. Since we can not use sujective definitions of "serious" or "not serious", I am thus obligated to inform someone of EVERY SINGLE THING THEY DO that impacts me in whatever way.

An arguments on rights ARE arguments of reduction to the ridculous, because that's how rights work. They apply even in the most ridiculous situations. So if you're talking about rights then you MUST discuss the ridiculous, because that right would exist, even then

Which is hardly universal, but it is true that freedom of speech also includes freedom of no speech.

What a shocking concept!

What happens when speech meets no speech? Is it like matter and anti-matter?

The question still stands, then. You want to deny the woman a choice to give the man a choice, why is one more important than the other?
Because I view it like this. She has choices in regards to how she deals with the pregnancy, abortion, adoption, keeping, etc. This involves a great deal of thought and coming to terms, correct? So should not the guy get the chance to do his own coming to terms? It allows for both parities to come to terms, however they may choose, to their own actions.

But, again, I am asking just why shouldn't she tell him? Again, not of the abortion, but that she got pregnant?

Which is hardly universal, but it is true that freedom of speech also includes freedom of no speech.

well "the first amendment" is not universal, and neither is the concept of "freedom of speech".

That being said, I'd be very curious to know of a government that has a right to abortion but not the right of free speech.

China maybe...but I know abortions can be required in china in circumstances, but I don't know if they can be chosen when they are not...

So, unless there's some wierd country I don't know about, in any nation where the right to abortion exists, the right to free speech exists.

oh, of course, let's not ignore the very big wrench in this whole problem. If a man has a right to know then the woman has an obligation to tell him. If this is true, then she MUST speak.

Thus you have compelled speech.

Congratulations, you just violated the first amendment.
So a someone who has AIDS has the right not to speak or inform his/her partner?

But, but...since I'm enamoured of you*, and hearing about your sexual escapades with others has the potential to make me sad, then I have a RIGHT TO KNOW!!! I DO! NERVUN SAYS SO!!!!

*of course, in a purely platonic way, and the rest is bollocks

OMGNOES! I am violating your "right" to know what I have done to my body! Oh, the injustice! The cruelty of it all!

I'm still not telling you. Let's see if Nervun cries a bit for you and if he lodges a complaint with the Swedish Ombudsman of Justice.

But, but...since I'm enamoured of you*, and hearing about your sexual escapades with others has the potential to make me sad, then I have a RIGHT TO KNOW!!! I DO! NERVUN SAYS SO!!!!

actually, NERVUN's argument would more be, Fass having hot gay sex makes you sad, and since his actions create a consequence of making you sad, you are obligated to tell him that his actions make you sad..

Which, well you just did.

So carry on then Fass.

Do you actually HAVE to feel guilty for your actions to admit to them?

If I drink up the last of the milk and my wife asks me if I did or not, I don't feel guilty in admitting it, but I should say that I did so, right?

Yeah. But if she doesn't really care and has already gone to buy more milk, should she feel duty-bound to inform you that you drank the last of the milk and she wanted some?

It's not the sex, it's the results of the sex.

So you have to feel guilty about sex if it happens to result in a pregnancy, even though that was not its intended effect and you both willingly participated, even though it might happen?

Of course she has the right to her own actions regarding the pregnancy, but what right does she have in controlling his actions?

None. She controls her actions, which include either telling him or not.

As noted, she doesn't have to accept or even listen to it. But it is his choice to make those offers or not.

If and only if he has the opportunity - which only she can give him.

He WAS there though. Unless you're at a fertility clinic, this was something that the both did.

And something that only she has to deal with now.

To know the results of his own actions.

Once again, are you claiming that men generally don't know that pregnancy is a possibility when they have sex?

Oh for the love of...

What the hell are you thinking? I mean, seriously? Where is this 'right to be informed of every thing done to you' come from? If you concede that 'serious' is subjective, but still want to argue there is some sort of right to be informed...where are you pulling this right out of? I mean...I've got a pretty good idea...but I'm sure you think it's coming from somewhere more noble than your arse.
Well, he seems to be SO sincere about those sun glasses so I though if they were THAT important to him...

So a someone who has AIDS has the right not to speak or inform his/her partner?

It's called competing rights.

So far, your imaginary 'right to be informed of the woman's pregnancy and/or abortion' involves no risks comparable to that of the effect of an untreated STI. Thus, it does not trump the woman's right to NOT inform.

Which is hardly universal, but it is true that freedom of speech also includes freedom of no speech.
There are limits on freedom of speech and non-speech however.

What a shocking concept!

What happens when speech meets no speech? Is it like matter and anti-matter?

Apparently you need a whole array of bullshit emitters and a poppycockithium matrix to harness this grand power of pulling "rights" out of your arse.

Well, he seems to be SO sincere about those sun glasses so I though if they were THAT important to him...

Don't dodge the point.

So a someone who has AIDS has the right not to speak or inform his/her partner?

ah, but that person doesn't have the right TO BE INFORMED, that partner has the right to life.

Very different things, and none of that has anything to do with the right to be informed, and right to life does not in any way apply to you wanting to know if someone has an abortion.

actually, NERVUN's argument would more be, Fass having hot gay sex makes you sad, and since his actions create a consequence of making you sad, you are obligated to tell him that his actions make you sad..

Which, well you just did.

So carry on then Fass.

Oh no, his argument also works the other way around. I have a right to deal with the pain of knowing of Fass' hot gay sex...I can't deal with that pain if I don't know about it.

TELL ME! IN VIDEO FORMAT!

There are limits on freedom of speech and non-speech however.

"You have the right to remain silent" ring a bell? Such luck the following rings a bell to me: "Every citizen shall be protected against corporal punishment. He shall likewise be protected against any torture or medical influence aimed at extorting or suppressing statements." So, it would seem I can indeed not be forced to say anything I don't want to say.

Apparently you need a whole array of bullshit emitters and a poppycockithium matrix to harness this grand power of pulling "rights" out of your arse.

I've actually been working on a device that harnesses that very power for faster-than-light travel. I call it my Warped Bullshit Drive. Whaddya think?

I've actually been working on a device that harnesses that very power for faster-than-light travel. I call it my Warped Bullshit Drive. Whaddya think?

My lord, it could run off NSG debates alone! Think of the possibilities!

There's that. No one has yet to give me a good reason why not.

There are all sorts of reasons. She may never want to see him again and may feel that contacting him would do nothing more than upset her. She may feel that abortion is the only responsible choice for her, but might suspect that he may be able to emotionally sway her otherwise. He may be an abusive bastard that she had sex with just to get away from him. He may, as in the case of a friend of mine, have intentionally impregnated her against her will. And so on.....

*sighs* Dempublicents, I personally find it very reprehensible that a woman's right to choose an abortion or not is denied to a number of women all around the world. I can argue till I'm blue in the face that a woman has the right to choose and should be allowed to choose (and have done so), but that doesn't mean those places will suddenly allow said women their rights.

Rights are, sadly, non-existent.

That doesn't really answer the point. Do you or do you not think a woman should be forced to tell a man whether she wants to or not. If you do not think so, then you are expressing the opinion that the woman has the right not to do so.

Why would it be ground to a halt? I stepped on someone else's bag, should I not say so then and there? Your attempt to reduce to the ridiculous loses more and more.

But if you do step on someone's bag and don't know it, perhaps staining it with mud from your shoe, should that person feel obligated to stop you and say something?

So a someone who has AIDS has the right not to speak or inform his/her partner?

No, but this is not at all analogous. A person with AIDS has the responsibility to tell any and all partners of his disease because he can infect those others - which will lead to their death. A man is not going to get sick or die because he doesn't know that a woman he slept with got pregnant.

Yeah. But if she doesn't really care and has already gone to buy more milk, should she feel duty-bound to inform you that you drank the last of the milk and she wanted some?
Keeps me from drinking the last of the milk without asking for permission, now don't it?

So you have to feel guilty about sex if it happens to result in a pregnancy, even though that was not its intended effect and you both willingly participated, even though it might happen?
I am not saying you have to feel guilty over sex or not. HOW he deals with the consequences are up to him. He can feel guilty or not, but he can't do anything without knowledge of those actions.

None. She controls her actions, which include either telling him or not.
But denying him that knowledge is also controlling his actions.

If and only if he has the opportunity - which only she can give him.
True, but again he should be allowed to know and deal with the situation in his own way, not her own way.

And something that only she has to deal with now.
So, again, you remove any and all responsibility a man has for his actions by doing so. Sorry, but I don't think that a guy's responsibility for his actions starts and stops at the moment of orgasm.

Once again, are you claiming that men generally don't know that pregnancy is a possibility when they have sex?
I'd like to say no, but then again I've run into some very silly guys (and girls) with some very stupid beliefs. In either case though, it is still about the person taking responsibility, to own up for, his or her own actions. That is something that ONLY that person can do.

And with THAT said, I'm off for the rest of the day. It's time I actually did what I was supposed to be doing today and not arguing various points of morality about sunglasses and how they relate to pregnancy.

actually, NERVUN's argument would more be, Fass having hot gay sex makes you sad, and since his actions create a consequence of making you sad, you are obligated to tell him that his actions make you sad..

Which, well you just did.

So carry on then Fass.

But then the right would be inversed and she would have a right to be informed of my gay sex so that she could take the consequences of dealing with the sadness it causes her. Meaning that I would have to furnish her with a never-ending (what can I say, I get around...) stream of hot, private Fass porn!

I'm still not gonna! Mwoahaha! I am crushing her "right"! Someone call the fucking Riksdag Commity on the Constitution.

I've actually been working on a device that harnesses that very power for faster-than-light travel. I call it my Warped Bullshit Drive. Whaddya think?

I'd give it a go, but only if we got to travel at Warp Factor santorum.

My lord, it could run off NSG debates alone! Think of the possibilities!

Indeed. With the power generated by just NSG debates, we ought to be colonizing planets within a month.

I'm still not gonna! Mwoahaha! I am crushing her "right"! Someone call the fucking Riksdag Commity on the Constitution.

Bastard.

Because I view it like this. She has choices in regards to how she deals with the pregnancy, abortion, adoption, keeping, etc. This involves a great deal of thought and coming to terms, correct? So should not the guy get the chance to do his own coming to terms? It allows for both parities to come to terms, however they may choose, to their own actions.
No, it does not. If you remove the woman's choice in informing the man of her pregnancy, she is no longer coming terms in the way she chose.
I agree that a man should know if he got a woman pregnant, but not at the expense of her choice in dealing with the pregnancy.

But, again, I am asking just why shouldn't she tell him? Again, not of the abortion, but that she got pregnant?
There could be a whole range of negative reactions, including demands to take a greater role in the pregnancy than she would like to allow. Dempublicents1 has mentioned some specific reason that answer this question well.

You don't like being excluded based solely on your gender?

Do you have some fucking amazing ability to get pregnant then?

No?

Then your vote is entirely idiotic.

Ovo Jeeze, lighten up. This isn't Gallup.

Ovo Jeeze, lighten up. This isn't Gallup.

No uterus? Fack off.

There's an option for men. Don't whine about being discriminated against because of your gender, oi?

Bastard.

http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/music008.gif

Keeps me from drinking the last of the milk without asking for permission, now don't it?

Why would it if she has no problem with you drinking the last of the milk?

I am not saying you have to feel guilty over sex or not. HOW he deals with the consequences are up to him. He can feel guilty or not, but he can't do anything without knowledge of those actions.

And?

But denying him that knowledge is also controlling his actions.

No more than denying anyone any knowledge is. I didn't tell my best friend the last time I had a pregnancy scare, because it got cleared up before I thought about it. By doing so, I kept her from comforting me/getting worried about me. That was not, however, the reason I didn't tell her. It just didn't come up. Should I have gone out of my way to tell her so that she could then decide what action she would take?

True, but again he should be allowed to know and deal with the situation in his own way, not her own way.

If she is somehow required to tell him, that is denying her the right to deal with the situation in her own way.

He can only deal with the situations that come up. In the situation that a woman tells him she is pregnant, he can deal with that.

So, again, you remove any and all responsibility a man has for his actions by doing so. Sorry, but I don't think that a guy's responsibility for his actions starts and stops at the moment of orgasm.

I don't either, but that isn't my choice when other people are involved, now is it? She is the only one that has to deal with it. Whether or not she should be the only one to deal with it is a different subject.

Rights are a "funny" thing.

Very often, one person's right will violate another persons right. Smoking is a good example of this. When should a non-smokers right trump a smokers right? When the smokers right can impede on the non-smokers health...smoking in enclosed spaces, etc.

This discussion is similar to that. The "right" that Nevrun speaks of, the "right" for a man to deal the the responsibility should not trump the right of the woman to have an abortion. Imagine, if you will, that the man in this situation is staunchly (biting my tongue here) pro life. Telling him that you are having an abortion could lead to a huge can of worms. Imagine the man taking the woman to court to block the abortion, possibly having her declared incompetent to make the decision. I'll admit, that this might be extreme, but within the realm of possibility.

To use the "finished milk" analogy. I walk into the kitchen, open the frig, and see the milk is gone. I COULD ask my husband if he finished it, so he can "deal" with his responsibility, or I COULD just go to the store, and buy milk. Have I stripped him of his "right" to deal with his responsibility. Is it wrong? Not really. Would I have liked him to go to the store? well, sure, I hate the grocery store. Would the woman in question rather not gotten pregnant, sure, but it happened, she is dealing with it, going to the store, to continue the analogy. Could she tell him, sure, but she doesn't need to, if she is financially able to pay for the abortion, or whatever, there isn't any reason to.

Morality doesn't play into this. Everyone's morals are different. You think that MORALLY she should, that's fine, but whose to say your morals are my morals.

It's been interesting to read this "debate"

I apologize if I am repeating someone, I got fed up and needed to respond before I read all the pages.

To answer the original question, I am pro choice, and I personally don't think I could seek an abortion, however, without heavy medical intervention, I don't get and stay pregnant, so even if I were to accidentally get pregnant, I wouldn't stay that way long.

Rights are a "funny" thing.

Very often, one person's right will violate another persons right. Smoking is a good example of this. When should a non-smokers right trump a smokers right? When the smokers right can impede on the non-smokers health...smoking in enclosed spaces, etc.

This discussion is similar to that. The "right" that Nevrun speaks of, the "right" for a man to deal the the responsibility should not trump the right of the woman to have an abortion. Imagine, if you will, that the man in this situation is staunchly (biting my tongue here) pro life. Telling him that you are having an abortion could lead to a huge can of worms. Imagine the man taking the woman to court to block the abortion, possibly having her declared incompetent to make the decision. I'll admit, that this might be extreme, but within the realm of possibility.

To use the "finished milk" analogy. I walk into the kitchen, open the frig, and see the milk is gone. I COULD ask my husband if he finished it, so he can "deal" with his responsibility, or I COULD just go to the store, and buy milk. Have I stripped him of his "right" to deal with his responsibility. Is it wrong? Not really. Would I have liked him to go to the store? well, sure, I hate the grocery store. Would the woman in question rather not gotten pregnant, sure, but it happened, she is dealing with it, going to the store, to continue the analogy. Could she tell him, sure, but she doesn't need to, if she is financially able to pay for the abortion, or whatever, there isn't any reason to.

Morality doesn't play into this. Everyone's morals are different. You think that MORALLY she should, that's fine, but whose to say your morals are my morals.



there are rights, legal rights and doing the right thing.

of course, in the end, only the woman (and her doctor) should have the decision on abortion

that doesnt negate nervun's point that the right thing to do (9 times out of 10) is to tell the man who got you pregnant that you are/were pregnant and what you decided to do about it. if you are close, the right thing to do is to ask his opinion and give it some amount of consideration before you make the final decision.

that there are plenty of circumstances where that is not wise or even possible does not make nervun wrong to say that its the right thing to do.

TELL ME! IN VIDEO FORMAT!

but don't link it here. ;)

that there are plenty of circumstances where that is not wise or even possible does not make nervun wrong to say that its the right thing to do.

I didn't read where anyone said it wasn't the RIGHT thing to do...the point I see being made is that it isn't necessary, that the woman has no obligation to tell the man. Should she...perhaps.

Anyway, it seems that there are 2 different issues, whether a woman is obligated to inform a man of an abortion, and whether it is the right thing to do. I stand by my belief that she isn't obligated to, and agree that telling him is the right thing to do.

but don't link it here. ;)

Ouch!

Damn Kat! That was a good one :D

No uterus? Fack off.

There's an option for men. Don't whine about being discriminated against because of your gender, oi?

With the way you're acting I find it hard to be upset that I don't have ovaries. You were apparently deeply offended by a trivial joke and then continue to go on a textual rampage.

I don't see why the male hormone is called testosterone when it's women that get so testy.

[Drum crash!]

With the way you're acting I find it hard to be upset that I don't have ovaries. You were apparently deeply offended by a trivial joke and then continue to go on a textual rampage.

I don't see why the male hormone is called testosterone when it's women that get so testy.

[Drum crash!]
Get a grip. You give yourself entirely too much credit.

Get a grip. You give yourself entirely too much credit.

It's true. The last time I bought something and charged it to myself, I didn't pay myself back until months after the bill was sent.

I didn't read where anyone said it wasn't the RIGHT thing to do...the point I see being made is that it isn't necessary, that the woman has no obligation to tell the man. Should she...perhaps.

Anyway, it seems that there are 2 different issues, whether a woman is obligated to inform a man of an abortion, and whether it is the right thing to do. I stand by my belief that she isn't obligated to, and agree that telling him is the right thing to do.


yes and it seemed to me that nervun was being accused of the one when he meant the other.

and i suppose every woman would draw the line at a different point as to when its something she really should do. we all have different circumstances and different viewpoints.

yes and it seemed to me that nervun was being accused of the one when he meant the other.

and i suppose every woman would draw the line at a different point as to when its something she really should do. we all have different circumstances and different viewpoints.

I don't know about that. I'd say personally, that even being a guy, if my (hypothetical girlfriend) had an abortion and didn't tell me, and I found out later, I wouldn't be ridiculously upset about it.

My logic is that while I may have supplied someDNA to it (a gross oversimplification) the actual burden is on her to carry the potential kiddo to term. And given that I am not properly quipped to carry a fetus to term, it isn't my decision to make, and while I may be oble to offer some opinion on it, it's not something I need to know about, and not something I have a right to know about.

Maybe not even something that it is the right thing to know about. It'sher body. Her decision. Her decision to spread the info around, no matter what the relationship is between me and her (wife, girlfriend, fling, etc.)

Disclaimer: This is my opinion. I back it up with no facts, no material to support my position. I'm also more than a little drunk. If you want to pick my opinion apart, fine. But don't think of it as an "argument" and don't pick it apart on technical fallacies.

I don't know about that. I'd say personally, that even being a guy, if my (hypothetical girlfriend) had an abortion and didn't tell me, and I found out later, I wouldn't be ridiculously upset about it.

My logic is that while I may have supplied someDNA to it (a gross oversimplification) the actual burden is on her to carry the potential kiddo to term. And given that I am not properly quipped to carry a fetus to term, it isn't my decision to make, and while I may be oble to offer some opinion on it, it's not something I need to know about, and not something I have a right to know about.

Maybe not even something that it is the right thing to know about. It'sher body. Her decision. Her decision to spread the info around, no matter what the relationship is between me and her (wife, girlfriend, fling, etc.)

Disclaimer: This is my opinion. I back it up with no facts, no material to support my position. I'm also more than a little drunk. If you want to pick my opinion apart, fine. But don't think of it as an "argument" and don't pick it apart on technical fallacies.

of course i dont know you but i think you would be upset.

its something you cant know until you are in the situation. maybe it would be nothing to you, maybe you would be obsessed (as some men are) with the child you "lost".

of course its not your decision, but it would be your business. and it would be correct for you to have any feeling about it that you might end up having. indifference or outrage (or anything in between).

of course i dont know you but i think you would be upset.

its something you cant know until you are in the situation. maybe it would be nothing to you, maybe you would be obsessed (as some men are) with the child you "lost".

of course its not your decision, but it would be your business. and it would be correct for you to have any feeling about it that you might end up having. indifference or outrage (or anything in between).

I go out of my way to be apathetic. Even when sober. I can't expect you to understand, but I don't think, even in that situation, I would mind.

I go out of my way to be apathetic. Even when sober. I can't expect you to understand, but I don't think, even in that situation, I would mind.

so one day you meet up with your girlfriend at her house for dinner...

deus "hi hun, hey, i was talking to joe today and he said he saw you downtown the other day.."

gf "oh yeah, i was at planned parenthood getting an abortion. didnt i tell you? yeah i cried all day afterwards, it was the worst day of my life so far"

deus "guess it slipped your mind. are we having spaghetti for dinner?"

even if you were quite happy to have avoided becoming a father, you might be quite upset that your girlfriend didnt think to turn to you for support in such a crisis that would affect both of you.

so one day you meet up with your girlfriend at her house for dinner...

deus "hi hun, hey, i was talking to joe today and he said he saw you downtown the other day.."

gf "oh yeah, i was at planned parenthood getting an abortion. didnt i tell you? yeah i cried all day afterwards, it was the worst day of my life so far"

deus "guess it slipped your mind. are we having spaghetti for dinner?"

even if you were quite happy to have avoided becoming a father, you might be quite upset that your girlfriend didnt think to turn to you for support in such a crisis that would affect both of you.

If she felt my support was unnecessary, who am I to want her to seek it?

Secondary disclaimer: Yes, I have never been in this situation. I'd like to establish that we are both speaking from a purely hypothetical standpoint.

If she felt my support was unnecessary, who am I to want her to seek it?

Secondary disclaimer: Yes, I have never been in this situation. I'd like to establish that we are both speaking from a purely hypothetical standpoint.

you HAVE been drinking!

you HAVE been drinking!

Dear, tell me something I don't know.