NationStates Jolt Archive

So I was talking to an acquaintance a couple hours ago, a guy I used to work with but don't really know that well. Regular small-talk. Reminded him about snakebite season coming up, etc. Then things get wierd.

He hits me with: "I saw something the other day." Odd emphasis on "saw."

That's right - a ghost. I don't believe in ghosts, never have. But telling someone to their face what they did or didn't see was rather difficult. The guy was convinced that he saw "something" in the shape of a person, threatening him for a second or so.

So naturally, I offered a few suggestions: light reflecting off a car, shadow from a bending tree, etc. I mentioned that I see odd humanlike shadows when in a state of insomnia, all that stuff. The guy was adamant. It happened in full sunlight today around noonish (making shadows unlikely), and he had had regular sleep (making insomnia unlikely, which he says doesn't cause hallucination for him anyway). It could only have been a ghost, to his mind.

Like I said, this guy's barely an acquaintance, but he was willing to include me in a private incident without any hesitation, despite it being very personal. On top of that, he's never struck me as a kook - in fact, he's a real "salt of the earth" type: quiet, religious, hard-working, etc., and swears he doesn't believe in "that sort of thing" either. Until he saw "something."

Naturally, I'm going to be on his case about it to see what he makes of it, but I thought I'd ask the question here:

Do you believe in ghosts?

Have you ever seen one?

Do you know a (credible) person who has?

Doesn't need to be a hollywood-type ghost - I mean any old apparation. Tell your horrifying tale! :)

I saw Steve Irwin in the old church belltower.

G-g-g-g-Ghosts? Zoinks!

I've never personally seen a ghost, but I believe in them. I've read so many stories, from so many places in the world, including people I know, that I am convinced something exists out there that's not flesh and blood.

I believe in Ghost and I've experienced hauntings before.

I've seen Ghostbusters, both One AND Two if that's what you mean.

Of course not. The notion is childish.

Of course not. The notion is childish.

Why is it childish?

I've never personally seen a ghost, but I believe in them. I've read so many stories, from so many places in the world, including people I know, that I am convinced something exists out there that's not flesh and blood.

It does seem possible. The brain plays tricks, certainly, but broad daylight apparitions appearing to sane people with no history of schizophrenia (etc.) might mean something, I can imagine.

Of course not. The notion is childish.

Remember, I'm not talking about Caspar the Friendly Ghost, here. This was a fleeting, threatening apparition, not some fantasy involving candy and fun and gumdrops.

I've never seen a ghost. Or rather, I am not aware that I've ever seen a ghost. I'm a cat owner. When there are cats in the house, they tend to get blamed for everything. My cats got mometarily blamed for an earthquake once (china cabinet starts rattling; knee-jerk response: "What are those cats doing??!!"). So who knows? The cat might be getting the credit for all the ghosts' hard work.

That said, I don't see much reason to assume that ghosts don't exist.

And that said, and assuming that ghosts do exist, I don't really understand why people are afraid of them. I mean, more than they would have been afraid of those people when they were alive.

And that said, and assuming that ghosts do exist, I don't really understand why people are afraid of them. I mean, more than they would have been afraid of those people when they were alive.

That's definitely another good question. The guy I talked to felt "threatened," by whatever he saw, but couldn't give a reason why. He just felt it. It's not like it was giving him the finger or something. :p

I think so.

They do.

My uncle is afraid of ghosts because when he was a child he saw a ghost and screamed and it pushed a bookcase over onto his bed. Luckily it didnt crush him because the bed blocked it but he was bruised from the books. My grandmother confirms the story. She ran into the room when she heard the scream to find the bookcase on the bed and my uncle underneath.

My Grandmother had a few ghost stories of her own.

I've encoutnered many ghostly things but have shared them too many times and don't feel like typing it all out again.

My uncle is afraid of ghosts because when he was a child he saw a ghost and screamed and it pushed a bookcase over onto his bed. Luckily it didnt crush him because teh bed blocked it but he was bruised from the books.

I've encoutnered many ghostly things but have shared them too many times and don't feel like typing it all out again.

Damn. I'd be pretty freaked out too, if that had happened to me.

My cats got mometarily blamed for an earthquake once (china cabinet starts rattling; knee-jerk response: "What are those cats doing??!!").

lol :p

Remember, I'm not talking about Caspar the Friendly Ghost, here. This was a fleeting, threatening apparition, not some fantasy involving candy and fun and gumdrops.

That doesn't make them any less childish to believe in such an absurd thing.

Why is it childish?

Because it is irrational & illogical, and I generally associate these qualities with children.

Because it is irrational & illogical, and I generally associate these qualities with children.

Ok, but why is it irrational and illogical?

Remember, I'm not talking about Caspar the Friendly Ghost, here. This was a fleeting, threatening apparition, not some fantasy involving candy and fun and gumdrops.

My brother once had a dream -- I say it was a dream; he's not so sure, but he's the one who was freaked out by it -- in which he was sleeping on a friend's sofa (true) and woke up (disputed) to see the apartment door open slightly and the figure of Death look in on him and then pass out of sight. He said the sight of this fleeting, shadowy figure filled him with such intense and immediate terror, bordering on panic, that he hopes he will never have such a feeling ever again. He said he felt that he was looking at the cause of his own death and watching it pass him by. I say it was a dream because a person had recently been shot to death in that apartment building and he had heard the story just shortly before having that experience. So I say the thought of death in the building fueled his imagination, which produced this particularly vivid dream.

I also have had dreams so vivid I had a hard time convincing myself that it was in fact a dream. I have woken up with the distinct and overwhelming impression that someone had just been in my room, or that someone had touched me or shouted at me, once even that I had been bitten by a dog -- I felt the pain and everything. But obviously, there was no dog in my bedroom.

Also, on rare occasions, I have had similar, very brief, sensory experiences while awake. Sitting reading, and suddenly feeling as if someone just whispered in my ear, or someone shouted something in another room even though I was alone in the house. Such things are extremely creepy, but as someone who has done a lot of work with meditation and visualization techniques, I can tell you, the imagination does have the power to trigger physiological responses without any apparently stimuli.

And finally, natural phenomena can get pretty freaky too. Once, a friend and I were working in my apartment. It was a sunny, windy, weekday afternoon, and we were the only people in the building at the time. Suddenly, an ear-splitting BANG! hit the front door of the apartment, right by the desk we were working at. It was so hard, the door literally jumped on its hinges, exactly as if some strong person had kicked it really really hard. Then silence. Both of us were in full fight-or-flight mode because everything about it said there was an intruder in the house, but of course, when we searched, we found no one. What caused it? Simply, the wind. This house uses force air heating and is full of air vents. When windows are open, wind flows through the building like a chimney, creating suction that sometimes makes it hard to open the door. I concluded that a sudden shift in the wind direction, caused the air flow through the building to change direction suddenly, and that caused the bang, essentially snapping the door like a sail. I had seen similar effects on a much smaller scale before.

Now, it is possible that my apartment house is haunted and that my brother did catch Death looking in on him while he slept, but it is more likely that our senses and imaginations were engaged by unusual stimuli.

Ok, but why is it irrational and illogical?

There are many people in the world who feel the need to put themselves above people who don't hold the same beliefs as them.

There are many people in the world who feel the need to put themselves above people who don't hold the same beliefs as them.

I just think that we don't really know what's on the other side, and it has to be more complex than just a good place and a bad place. Why, because this instance, this life is complex.

I just think that we don't really know what's on the other side, and it has to be more complex than just a good place and a bad place. Why, because this instance, this life is complex.

Thats a perfectly valid view to have. My experiences with the unknown have led me to discard my old views and leave the chance for the unknown to exist in a much more mysterious state than anything we could possibly ever comprehend.

Because it is irrational & illogical, and I generally associate these qualities with children.

I think you're reaching a bit to make that proclamation. If you simply "see" something and make note of it, then it may or may not be true, but it's not automatically illogical if it's strange or hard to believe. Observation is the cornerstone of science and empiricism, after all. Saying, "I saw this, and I believe it's X" isn't wrong. Some people use that information to jump to conclusions and say it was something definitely ghostly, and others don't. The conclusion may be improper, but the experience and being disturbed by it isn't childlike.

I just think that we don't really know what's on the other side, and it has to be more complex than just a good place and a bad place. Why, because this instance, this life is complex.

I agree. Personally, I'm more likely to assume a natural cause for such things than a supernatural one,* but I think the foolish notion is to assume that we know enough about the world/universe to conclude that things we cannot see or prove categorically do not exist. And frankly, I'm a bit surprised to see Progressica being so dismissive, but whatever.




*Btw, my notions about such things are a little complicated because I reject the idea of the "supernatural." I think that anything that does exist, exists in the natural universe and, therefore, by definition, is natural. Nothing that exists in nature can be supernatural (i.e. above or beyond nature). So, if there are such things as ghosts, then they are totally natural. And if they are natural, then they are probably normal too, so I have issues with the word "paranormal" as well. But I'll use both terms in conversation if I have to.

I agree. Personally, I'm more likely to assume a natural cause for such things than a supernatural one,* but I think the foolish notion is to assume that we know enough about the world/universe to conclude that things we cannot see or prove categorically do not exist. And frankly, I'm a bit surprised to see Progressica being so dismissive, but whatever.




*Btw, my notions about such things are a little complicated because I reject the idea of the "supernatural." I think that anything that does exist, exists in the natural universe and, therefore, by definition, is natural. Nothing that exists in nature can be supernatural (i.e. above or beyond nature). So, if there are such things as ghosts, then they are totally natural. And if they are natural, then they are probably normal too, so I have issues with the word "paranormal" as well. But I'll use both terms in conversation if I have to.

"Supernatural" and "Paranormal" are terms people used for things that haven't been explained by science yet. Once its been explained by science, it's usually put in it's proper place.

I don't believe in ghosts.

The term "ghost" implies some spiritual essence of the self that remains even after the body has died.

My own beliefs do not coincide with this possibility. It is not possible, in my opinion, for the "soul" to remain on this level of existence after the death of the physical body. Where exactly the "soul" goes, I do not choose to speculate upon...but it doesn't stay here.

Hence...no ghosts.

I think you're reaching a bit to make that proclamation. If you simply "see" something and make note of it, then it may or may not be true, but it's not automatically illogical if it's strange or hard to believe. Observation is the cornerstone of science and empiricism, after all. Saying, "I saw this, and I believe it's X" isn't wrong. Some people use that information to jump to conclusions and say it was something definitely ghostly, and others don't. The conclusion may be improper, but the experience and being disturbed by it isn't childlike.
There are a lot of perfectly good reasons (most of them physiological) for people to have a fear response to the sudden, unexpected, close-up appearance of a human-looking figure. If such responses were not normal, there would be no such thing as a shock moment in a horror movie. Responses are hardwired into the brain to certain shapes, colors, textures and kinds of movement -- some positive, others extremely negative. It's a survival mechanism.

There are also perfectly good reasons (most of them cultural) for ascribing certain kinds of explanations to experiences that cannot be satisfactorily explained otherwise. People do not believe in ghosts because they are childish or silly. They believe in ghosts because ghost-beliefs are part of their cultural matrix of death-beliefs and are generally used to explain certain kinds of experiences for which there is no other explanation as of yet. If they came from a culture of cat worshippers or fear-ers, they would no doubt ascribe such things to the doings of cats.

This, by the way, in no way goes to show that ghosts do not exist. Only that we think about them the way we do for certain reasons, even though in fact we know nothing at all about them, including whether they exist or not.

I don't believe in ghosts.

The term "ghost" implies some spiritual essence of the self that remains even after the body has died.

My own beliefs do not coincide with this possibility. It is not possible, in my opinion, for the "soul" to remain on this level of existence after the death of the physical body. Where exactly the "soul" goes, I do not choose to speculate upon...but it doesn't stay here.

Hence...no ghosts.

Well, I did imply in the title post that the "ghost" could be anything - not just a soul walking the Earth, etc. But the traditional "ghost" is always interesting. In the past, some believed that the unshriven dead would remain for a time.

There are a lot of perfectly good reasons (most of them physiological) for people to have a fear response to the sudden, unexpected, close-up appearance of a human-looking figure. If such responses were not normal, there would be no such thing as a shock moment in a horror movie. Responses are hardwired into the brain to certain shapes, colors, textures and kinds of movement -- some positive, others extremely negative. It's a survival mechanism.

There are also perfectly good reasons (most of them cultural) for ascribing certain kinds of explanations to experiences that cannot be satisfactorily explained otherwise. People do not believe in ghosts because they are childish or silly. They believe in ghosts because ghost-beliefs are part of their cultural matrix of death-beliefs and are generally used to explain certain kinds of experiences for which there is no other explanation as of yet. If they came from a culture of cat worshippers or fear-ers, they would no doubt ascribe such things to the doings of cats.

This, by the way, in no way goes to show that ghosts do not exist. Only that we think about them the way we do for certain reasons, even though in fact we know nothing at all about them, including whether they exist or not.

That's probably a better way of putting it. :)

"Supernatural" and "Paranormal" are terms people used for things that haven't been explained by science yet. Once its been explained by science, it's usually put in it's proper place.
That's true, but I think it's not the only way most people (non-scientists) use those words. I think most people imagine a set of phenomena/experiences that is somehow outside the spectrum of "natural" and will always be so, even if science ever does figure out how to explain them. To me, this is a logical impossibility. To me, "nature" is a name for reality, and thus nothing real can be outside of it, either unnatural or supernatural. I think that this assumption about "supernatural" being something that is inherently outside the range of nature is related to the reason why some people are so afraid of ghosts, even though they have never been harmed by one. I've met people who claimed (honestly, I think) to fear ghosts more than disease. I think it's because the idea of the "supernatural" up-ends their notion of what reality is. A real, natural disease is something they can learn to cope with, but they think there is no way to get used to something that shatters the boundaries of reality. Anyway, that's the way I understand their thinking.

EDIT: It's a fear of the "outside," essentially. "Reality" for such people becomes the name of a safe territory. The belief in a place that is safe, assumes the existence of places that are not safe. So if nature/reality is safe, then the supernatural or unnatural must be dangerous. I think this is why no one can convince some people that even if ghosts are real, they are probably less dangerous than live people.

Originally Posted by Delator
I don't believe in ghosts.

The term "ghost" implies some spiritual essence of the self that remains even after the body has died.

My own beliefs do not coincide with this possibility. It is not possible, in my opinion, for the "soul" to remain on this level of existence after the death of the physical body. Where exactly the "soul" goes, I do not choose to speculate upon...but it doesn't stay here.

Hence...no ghosts.
Well, I did imply in the title post that the "ghost" could be anything - not just a soul walking the Earth, etc. But the traditional "ghost" is always interesting. In the past, some believed that the unshriven dead would remain for a time.
Based on my posts here, some people might be surprised to learn that I'm an animist and, thus, I believe in the existence of spirits of all varieties. It doesn't lead me to assume exotic causes to strange events, but even though most ghost claims can easily be explained away, I cannot and will not say there is no such thing as ghosts. A) I don't know enough about the universe to say that about most things, and B) although I generally don't concern myself with ghosts, they do make sense in the context of my belief system. In my beliefs, souls are immortal, and souls and spirits may travel freely through many worlds, and the dead don't necessarily lose interest in the living and may have the ability to return for visits, for whatever personal reasons of their own.

I've never personally seen a ghost, but I believe in them. I've read so many stories, from so many places in the world, including people I know, that I am convinced something exists out there that's not flesh and blood.




Well...

I've never personally seen Santa Claus, but I believe in him. I've read so many stories, from so many places in the world, including people I know, that I am convinced something exists out there that's not flesh and blood.


To be honest: no I don't believe in Ghosts.

Why do they always 'appear' in front of a few (most of the time: one) people, why not in front of an entire loaded football stadium? Don't they like football?

And why oh why, in present times, where everybody is having a mobile phone with video recording features, why is there no trustable ghost-video around?

Another interesting thing is that in most of those ghost stories, the ghosts are described as the typical movie-ghosts...

Oh well, if you feel fine by believing in ghosts... I know some little humans that really believe in Santa Claus, my youngest daughter even 'saw' him.

Well...

I've never personally seen Santa Claus, but I believe in him. I've read so many stories, from so many places in the world, including people I know, that I am convinced something exists out there that's not flesh and blood.


To be honest: no I don't believe in Ghosts.

Why do they always 'appear' in front of a few (most of the time: one) people, why not in front of an entire loaded football stadium? Don't they like football?

And why oh why, in present times, where everybody is having a mobile phone with video recording features, why is there no trustable ghost-video around?

Another interesting thing is that in most of those ghost stories, the ghosts are described as the typical movie-ghosts...

Oh well, if you feel fine by believing in ghosts... I know some little humans that really believe in Santa Claus, my youngest daughter even 'saw' him.
So cute. :) When I was little, I saw Easter bunny pawprints on the front door of the house, as if he had pushed the door open to get in and leave colored eggs. Of course, they were really cat pawprints. Those damned cats again!

If we want to really get into this matter, there are plenty of possible explanations for why large groups don't report seeing ghosts all at once. Or rather, why they don't often report it. There are several historical incidents of large numbers of soldiers claiming to have all seen ghosts in battlefields. There's a very famous such story from WW1 -- sorry, I can't remember the name of the French town where it was supposed to have happened. I'll try to look it up later, if I have time. Also, large numbers of people claim to see visions of the Virgin Mary all at once -- I suppose since she's dead, it would qualify, technically. Large groups of sailors or ship passengers have reported seeing ghost ships, at times. Also, as I've said earlier, the scare factor of ghosts is in something up-close and unexpected as well as unexplained. It's hard to have that kind of intimacy at a football game. Maybe there are ghosts at football games, but people don't notice them because they are watching the game.

So cute. :) When I was little, I saw Easter bunny pawprints on the front door of the house, as if he had pushed the door open to get in and leave colored eggs. Of course, they were really cat pawprints. Those damned cats again!

If we want to really get into this matter, there are plenty of possible explanations for why large groups don't report seeing ghosts all at once. Or rather, why they don't often report it. There are several historical incidents of large numbers of soldiers claiming to have all seen ghosts in battlefields. There's a very famous such story from WW1 -- sorry, I can't remember the name of the French town where it was supposed to have happened. I'll try to look it up later, if I have time. Also, large numbers of people claim to see visions of the Virgin Mary all at once -- I suppose since she's dead, it would qualify, technically. Large groups of sailors or ship passengers have reported seeing ghost ships, at times. Also, as I've said earlier, the scare factor of ghosts is in something up-close and unexpected as well as unexplained. It's hard to have that kind of intimacy at a football game. Maybe there are ghosts at football games, but people don't notice them because they are watching the game.

Also, it might be that people are more likely to see ghosts when alone because their concentration isn't compromised by being in a group of people and dividing their attention between many different things. Just a thought.

Do I believe in ghosts? No.

Do I believe people see things they can't explain? Yes.

People tend to see what they want to see or expect to see. So if you go into the Bermuda Triangle and see something it will become extraordinary. If you see that same something somewhere else, it's nothing. If you go into a "haunted" house, you expect to see ghosts, so any event becomes ghostly. That same event in an ordinary house is nothing. If you're a raving, new age, white light looney tune, I expect you will see raving, new age, white light looney tune things. If you're a rationalist (as I am) you won't see anything that can't be explained rationally.

So cute. :) When I was little, I saw Easter bunny pawprints on the front door of the house, as if he had pushed the door open to get in and leave colored eggs. Of course, they were really cat pawprints. Those damned cats again!

If we want to really get into this matter, there are plenty of possible explanations for why large groups don't report seeing ghosts all at once. Or rather, why they don't often report it. There are several historical incidents of large numbers of soldiers claiming to have all seen ghosts in battlefields. There's a very famous such story from WW1 -- sorry, I can't remember the name of the French town where it was supposed to have happened. I'll try to look it up later, if I have time. Also, large numbers of people claim to see visions of the Virgin Mary all at once -- I suppose since she's dead, it would qualify, technically. Large groups of sailors or ship passengers have reported seeing ghost ships, at times. Also, as I've said earlier, the scare factor of ghosts is in something up-close and unexpected as well as unexplained. It's hard to have that kind of intimacy at a football game. Maybe there are ghosts at football games, but people don't notice them because they are watching the game.

I had some psychology classes in college. I remember a story about rather a big group of people that saw some UFO near Las Vegas or something.

People stopped their car and look to it. They were all sure they saw an UFO.

To make a long story short, it was later proven that it was nothing more than a weather balloon. What actually happened was that people convinced each other that they were looking at an UFO. It was a kind of mass hysteria.

So when even a big group saw ‘something’ than this will not say it is for real.

Back to the ghost thing now…

Do you all people realize that when ghost are real that all laws about physics are worthless?

I’m wondering how many of those ghost believers are religious…
I have the feeling that only few agnostic and atheist people believe in ghosts, no?

About the WWI battle story. That’s so typical. It happened a long time ago and it is almost not verifiable. Now, by accident I know that story, only the setting was different, the battlefield ghost story I know, happened in WWII.

I consider it as an urban legend.

http://www.jasonlove.com/funny-cartoons/search-viewer.aspx?id=641:D

Another interesting thing is that in most of those ghost stories, the ghosts are described as the typical movie-ghosts...
Is it possible that the typical idea of ghost influenced movies, rather than the other way around? After all, films have only been about for the past hundred years or so, whilst ghost stories have been about for thousands of years.

Is it possible that the typical idea of ghost influenced movies, rather than the other way around? After all, films have only been about for the past hundred years or so, whilst ghost stories have been about for thousands of years.

Also a good observation. Ghost stories are timeless. :)

Do you all people realize that when ghost are real that all laws about physics are worthless?

Yes, I was just thinking along those lines how illogical it is that somebody or "thing" is able to exist as a non-physical entity, but which we can see/hear or even sometimes touch. The very concept is not possible so I find it childish to believe in it, just as it is childish to believe a man with a flying sleigh drops down however many billion chimneys in the space of xmas night.

The fact that the popular idea of a ghost as being somebody's soul surviving after death is even more ridiculous considering there is no such thing as a soul.

I was wondering, can an Athiest believe in ghosts? I don't think so, so when there are so many Athiests here, how come so many NS'ers believe in ghosts?

Is it possible that the typical idea of ghost influenced movies, rather than the other way around? After all, films have only been about for the past hundred years or so, whilst ghost stories have been about for thousands of years.

They influence each other.

But it is not that it are old stories that they are right.

Till today, there is no scientific evidence for the existence of ghosts. Nothing, nada, zero.

And science is NOT having an answer about anything. By instance there is no clear explanation about ‘simple’ everyday things like “gravity” or “why do we sleep & dream?”

I was wondering, can an Athiest believe in ghosts? I don't think so, so when there are so many Athiests here, how come so many NS'ers believe in ghosts?

Why can't an atheist believe in ghosts? If you're a believer in strict empiricism and you see a ghost, you've still seen a ghost. No conflict there.

Do you believe in ghosts?

Have you ever seen one?

Do you know a (credible) person who has?

Doesn't need to be a hollywood-type ghost - I mean any old apparation. Tell your horrifying tale! :)

Yes. Some of my best friends are ghosts. However, I don't believe in credible people. :)

Yes. Some of my best friends are ghosts. However, I don't believe in credible people. :)
Was this nation made purely for this thread? :p

Was this nation made purely for this thread? :p

:D No, I created it in April. But when I saw this thread, I couldn't resist. :)

Why can't an atheist believe in ghosts? If you're a believer in strict empiricism and you see a ghost, you've still seen a ghost. No conflict there.

Yes, but based off my (probably wildly-inaccurate) generalisations from people's spiritual beliefs, I would make the assumption that atheists would be more likely to put the "ghost" down to a trick of light or something other than it being some sort of supernatural phenomena.

you cant prove they do or dont....people that have the experiences will swear they're true.....can many thousands of people all be dreaming up the same things ? and if not how come noone can prove it...its an endless debate i think its very possible...to call it childish is just short sighted

:D No, I created it in April. But when I saw this thread, I couldn't resist. :)
The fact that it's May and that nation was created in April ought to have given me the hint...

Why can't an atheist believe in ghosts? If you're a believer in strict empiricism and you see a ghost, you've still seen a ghost. No conflict there.

Because if ghosts exist, then souls exist.

It’s not because the majority does believe something that it is true.

There was a time that the majority believed the Earth was flat and that it was the centre of the universe.

Millions of millions of people believe that Santa Claus is real. Only they are aged 8 or less.

If you believe in ghosts then one can start believing in dwarfs. You can’t proof there are no dwarfs, so they could be real, no?

It is like believing in a god thing. People who really believe that an invisible dude created everything, is managing all, is taking care of their personal life, such people should be exterminated. They are really insane.

To me, ghost believers are in the same category as people who think they are Napoleon.

There was a time that the majority believed the Earth was flat and that it was the centre of the universe
That's actually not true. People have always said that the earth is spherical. The idea otherwise was made up by some author (or possibly authors) in the 19th Century.

Because if ghosts exist, then souls exist.

I don't see how believing in ghosts means you must accept the reality of the soul. A ghost doesn't even need to be human. It can be a spirit in a pagan sense, or in some other way that has no concept of life after death.

That's actually not true. People have always said that the earth is spherical. The idea otherwise was made up by some author (or possibly authors) in the 19th Century.

Not exactly.

The misconception is that medieval people, specifically the church, believed the earth was flat. Of course, there were probably many ignorant people at the time who rejected the idea of a spherical earth.

However, everyone did believe the earth was flat before Pythagoras suggested otherwise (~550 BC). Even then it took another 500 years or so to catch on.

Well, I was nearly right :p

I couldn't remember the specifics of the whole thing, as I've not read anything about it for a good few years now.

And there are still ignorant people who reject the idea of a spherical earth, the Flat Earth Society.

So the point still stands that, at some time in the past, most people believed in a flat earth.

Although, I wasn't reading the argument, so I don't know why this is important. :p

"We're Ready to Believe You!"
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/GhostbustersLogo.jpg
555-2368
http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/ghostbuster.gif

I believe in pacman ghosts.

I work in a haunted hotel. and grew up outside of gettysburg. they exist - its a complete waste of time to even bother arguing about it. its not going to kill people if they insist they aren't real and for most of humanity its as obvious as the sky being blue...not worth arguing over.

Well, I was nearly right :p

I couldn't remember the specifics of the whole thing, as I've not read anything about it for a good few years now.

And there are still ignorant people who reject the idea of a spherical earth, the Flat Earth Society.

I was an officer in the flat earth society at my school...I don't think anybody in the FES actually believes that. it was just an absurdist club...

I work in a haunted hotel. and grew up outside of gettysburg. they exist - its a complete waste of time to even bother arguing about it. its not going to kill people if they insist they aren't real and for most of humanity its as obvious as the sky being blue...not worth arguing over.

Yeah wot you said.

Yes I do, I have seem bloody loads of em, they are real indeed!

neither belief nor science nor the two of them togather, know the limits, if any, of what CAN exist.

where we get into cloud coocoo land, is when people adamantly insist on what they think they know about things that are neither known nor knowable.

i have non-tangable friends myself. they curl up on top of my bed when i go to sleep at night. my night. which generaly happens to be in the day time.

but i doubt very much they could ever bust me out of jail if i got into that kind of trouble or anything like that.

there seems to be some popularity to the belief that the very fabric of the surroundings in which an extreme event took place can somehow preserve and perpetuate, even reproject, some aspect of the awairnessess involved.

i see no reason to dismiss this possibility out of hand, though equaly none to make the kind of big deal out of it, other then the redress of justice thus preserved events cry out for, and certainly causing more suffering and harm is no rational way to do so.

they serve perhapse as a warning, a reminder of what we do to ourselvs, every time we participate in or condone, making our world we have to live in, a more brutal place then it would otherwise be. something so called conservative politicians seem to be just a tiney we bit over enthused of doing.

yes i believe there are things that exist and that happen, that do so infrequently and under unusual enough circumstances, that they fall outside of the realm of common expectations.

some of these may involve awairnessess or environmentaly recorded awairnessess, not tangably present, or even capable of being.

it's a big universe out there, and straingeness is not all that uncommon.

it's the common assumptions that can get pretty strainge and inconsistent with it. especialy those, when it comes to, about uncommon occurances.

all i can say is strainge things happen, but what most people claim, or immagine to "know" about them, can generally be taken with a certain grain of salt.

what you see might not be what you think it is,
but i wouldn't give up the ghost just yet.

=^^=
.../\...

I honestly don't know.

Maybe the phenomena has a scientific explanation. Maybe not.

I don't know, I've never seen anything myself.

I believe in Ghost and I've experienced hauntings before.

You've experienced hauntings?? Can you give an example?

I'd have to see it to believe in this sort of thing, to be honest.

I once heard a noise that scared the absolute shit out of me outside of my bedroom window once. Sounded like an animal snuffling about, and as I'm on the first floor, it'd have to been stuck to the wall or something. I wasn't the only one who heard it, as my twin shared the same room as me.

I wouldn't have said it was supernatural, although it was unexplainable, but it didn't half scare me.

You've experienced hauntings?? Can you give an example?

bwhaha plenty! What ya want? The house I lived in as i got married? my nans house and the ghost of the piolet? The exorsim ofthe drowned girl? The dead dog?

Yes I do, I have seem bloody loads of em, they are real indeed!

Can you give an example?

Can you give an example?

See above!

bwhaha plenty! What ya want? The house I lived in as i got married? my nans house and the ghost of the piolet? The exorsim ofthe drowned girl? The dead dog?

The drowned girl, what happened there?

I've never seen a ghost. Or rather, I am not aware that I've ever seen a ghost. I'm a cat owner. When there are cats in the house, they tend to get blamed for everything. My cats got mometarily blamed for an earthquake once (china cabinet starts rattling; knee-jerk response: "What are those cats doing??!!"). So who knows? The cat might be getting the credit for all the ghosts' hard work.

That said, I don't see much reason to assume that ghosts don't exist.

And that said, and assuming that ghosts do exist, I don't really understand why people are afraid of them. I mean, more than they would have been afraid of those people when they were alive.

Yeah, my cat often gets blamed for stuff, and somebody told me that ghosts tend to freak cats out. Which could explain why every cat I've owned always runs around the house jumping from armchair to armchair and meowing at invisible things, and why they tend to stare at things just over my head or shoulder. Chessie (my first cat) did it, Salem (my cat who ran away recently :() did it, and Sneaky's been doing it ever since she came to this house.

I've noticed strange things too, other than my cats. When I was nine, I came home from a trip to Florida and my sister and I proceeded to play with our Barbies. We both heard a voice (a little girl's voice) saying "Can I play with you?" We ran out of the room. When I was eleven I went downstairs to get something out of the refrigerator and I heard the same voice calling my sister's name.

I've also noticed unnatural chills through my room. MY room is normally quite stuffy (especially in the summer) and I rarely open my window (because it won't open :(), but I've noticed this decoration just bobbing and spinning around for no reason.

The strange thing is though, my house was built only about 18 years ago, and it was previously owned by a couple with 2 boys. There's no way that our ghost can possibly be a member of that family.

neither belief nor science nor the two of them togather, know the limits, if any, of what CAN exist.

where we get into cloud coocoo land, is when people adamantly insist on what they think they know about things that are neither known nor knowable.

i have non-tangable friends myself. they curl up on top of my bed when i go to sleep at night. my night. which generaly happens to be in the day time.

but i doubt very much they could ever bust me out of jail if i got into that kind of trouble or anything like that.

there seems to be some popularity to the belief that the very fabric of the surroundings in which an extreme event took place can somehow preserve and perpetuate, even reproject, some aspect of the awairnessess involved.

i see no reason to dismiss this possibility out of hand, though equaly none to make the kind of big deal out of it, other then the redress of justice thus preserved events cry out for, and certainly causing more suffering and harm is no rational way to do so.

they serve perhapse as a warning, a reminder of what we do to ourselvs, every time we participate in or condone, making our world we have to live in, a more brutal place then it would otherwise be. something so called conservative politicians seem to be just a tiney we bit over enthused of doing.

yes i believe there are things that exist and that happen, that do so infrequently and under unusual enough circumstances, that they fall outside of the realm of common expectations.

some of these may involve awairnessess or environmentaly recorded awairnessess, not tangably present, or even capable of being.

it's a big universe out there, and straingeness is not all that uncommon.

it's the common assumptions that can get pretty strainge and inconsistent with it. especialy those, when it comes to, about uncommon occurances.

all i can say is strainge things happen, but what most people claim, or immagine to "know" about them, can generally be taken with a certain grain of salt.

what you see might not be what you think it is,
but i wouldn't give up the ghost just yet.

=^^=
.../\...

I liked the text. As an occultist, I'm giving it the Heikoku Seal of Approval (tm). ;)

On a side note, if you're female and of age, will you marry me? :D

In Soviet Russia, ghost is haunted by you!

The drowned girl, what happened there?

Ahhhh many years ago back in my Pagan past, I was present when a friend of mine got called to this girls house to perform an exorsicm.

She had been mucking around with the ojiu board and her house got haunted by the ghost of some drowned girl. During the exorsicm, we were visted by the specticalu of this green head, floating hair, horrible stench, and then it was gone.

In Soviet Russia, ghost is haunted by you!

In Soviet Russia, MSN should be on strawberry! :)

Ahhhh many years ago back in my Pagan past

Mmm. What methods did you use?

In Soviet Russia, MSN should be on strawberry! :)

In Soviet Russia strawberry on MSN

Mmm. What methods did you use?

Sorry, do what?

I've never seen a ghost but I have (so I believe) seen a supernatural being. (Twice). Once while camping and then when I looked through the window of my house and saw a man standing there in a white robe with a red sash. The other man wore a black robe. Neither of the two had faces.

Show me a ghost in a controlled scientific environment and I'll give credence to your claims.

No, I don't belive in ghosts. Even though I've seen one on three different occations. I belive they are apparitions of the mind.

If I ever see an object floating around the room, then I could belive.

It’s not because the majority does believe something that it is true.

There was a time that the majority believed the Earth was flat and that it was the centre of the universe.

Millions of millions of people believe that Santa Claus is real. Only they are aged 8 or less.

If you believe in ghosts then one can start believing in dwarfs. You can’t proof there are no dwarfs, so they could be real, no?

It is like believing in a god thing. People who really believe that an invisible dude created everything, is managing all, is taking care of their personal life, such people should be exterminated. They are really insane.

To me, ghost believers are in the same category as people who think they are Napoleon.

Yea, I love you too. :rolleyes:

God, ghosts and unicorns are all in the same chapter of my book. I know what they are, so I wouldn't be that surprised if I saw one but there is no evidence to prove their existance. What would surprise me is a talking boston creme donut. Never heard of a talking boston creme donut. Though, now that I thought about it... wouldn't be so very surprised to see one.

P.S. My book sports a glow-in-the-dark holographic cover.

You've experienced hauntings?? Can you give an example?

Back in my old Middle School (which was built in the 1920s) it was haunted by a ghost (never found out what the ghost name was or why it's there) who likes to run down hallways and open and shut doors. The favorite place was the media center where I experienced one of my first hauntings at. One late afternoon I was doing homework in the media center (it was the only quiet spot in the school) and all the sudden a door which was in plain view of me jerked open and slammed back shut and then I heard running footsteps the footsteps ran down the path and to the front of the media center, another door jerked open and slammed shut and that was it. Back then I was scared out of my pants, but looking back on it, it's now a fond memory.

In 2001, the school did try an exorcism's but apparently it only increased the hauntings and made it more intense. I talked to a priest who was there. I really should go down to the local archives and see what happened at that school.

It does seem possible. The brain plays tricks, certainly, but broad daylight apparitions appearing to sane people with no history of schizophrenia (etc.) might mean something, I can imagine.

None of which adds up to 'ghosts'.

Even if we loosen the category to include a more 'far eastern' interpretation of the 'spirit' (so, not necessarily 'ghosts' as we in the west might understand them), daylight apparitions and weird non-physical entities still are not the only options. Maybe not even the best ones.

I think it's possible they exist. Pretty much every experience I've had that someone might attribute to ghostly happenings I've dismissed as personally being in need of stronger medication. I even have a picture of what looks to be someone standing behind me when nobody was there except me and my webcam. I wondered about it for a minute and blamed it on peculiar shadows.

Back in my old Middle School (which was built in the 1920s) it was haunted by a ghost (never found out what the ghost name was or why it's there) who likes to run down hallways and open and shut doors. The favorite place was the media center where I experienced one of my first hauntings at. One late afternoon I was doing homework in the media center (it was the only quiet spot in the school) and all the sudden a door which was in plain view of me jerked open and slammed back shut and then I heard running footsteps the footsteps ran down the path and to the front of the media center, another door jerked open and slammed shut and that was it. Back then I was scared out of my pants, but looking back on it, it's now a fond memory.

In 2001, the school did try an exorcism's but apparently it only increased the hauntings and made it more intense. I talked to a priest who was there. I really should go down to the local archives and see what happened at that school.

I wonder if "all of a sudden" has as much it's own sphere of influence as "little did he know"...?

On a more related note, I suspect you are describing that fragile interface between being awake and being asleep.

I think it's possible they exist. Pretty much every experience I've had that someone might attribute to ghostly happenings I've dismissed as personally being in need of stronger medication. I even have a picture of what looks to be someone standing behind me when nobody was there except me and my webcam. I wondered about it for a minute and blamed it on peculiar shadows.

Can we see the picture?

I wonder if "all of a sudden" has as much it's own sphere of influence as "little did he know"...?

On a more related note, I suspect you are describing that fragile interface between being awake and being asleep.

Nope, wide awake.

I had some psychology classes in college. I remember a story about rather a big group of people that saw some UFO near Las Vegas or something.

People stopped their car and look to it. They were all sure they saw an UFO.

To make a long story short, it was later proven that it was nothing more than a weather balloon. What actually happened was that people convinced each other that they were looking at an UFO. It was a kind of mass hysteria.

No, actually, it WAS a UFO until it was identified as a weather balloon. That's what UFO means -- UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECT.

Nope, wide awake.

Were you walking? Playing tennis? Jumping up and down? Or sitting in a somewhat restful position?

I got up, showered, dressed, grabbed a bite to eat, drove to work and started my shift the other day. Talked to my co-workers, and everything.

Then the alarm went off... again.

Because if ghosts exist, then souls exist.

Who says ghosts necessarily are souls?

Can we see the picture?

It's a really horrible picture to tell anything from, but here you go:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c330/cfig0669/Carriespics002-1.jpg

Kind of looks like somebody standing behind me with their arms folded, but it's too dark to say for sure.

I see apparitions and other things all the time. Used to scare the hell out of me too. Now its, "ehh, whatever". I think the Shadowpeople secretly admire me or something.

It's a really horrible picture to tell anything from, but here you go:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c330/cfig0669/Carriespics002-1.jpg

Kind of looks like somebody standing behind me with their arms folded, but it's too dark to say for sure.

It is pretty grainy (not punning!) but yeah, I can see why it might look like a person there.

Could be artifacts -- look at the halo effect around the light. You're probably right in thinking it a weird shadow of the non-ghostly type.

Lots of pictures you see on the net purporting to be proof of ghosts are faked, and can be faked pretty easily. Check this out (and I didn't do it apurpose either..)

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1597100

I took a shot of a walrus with my flash on (stupidly) and managed to catch the reflection of people on my side of the glass.

It is pretty grainy (not punning!) but yeah, I can see why it might look like a person there.

Could be artifacts -- look at the halo effect around the light. You're probably right in thinking it a weird shadow of the non-ghostly type.

Lots of pictures you see on the net purporting to be proof of ghosts are faked, and can be faked pretty easily. Check this out (and I didn't do it apurpose either..)

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1597100

I took a shot of a walrus with my flash on (stupidly) and managed to catch the reflection of people on my side of the glass.

That's a cool pic though. I love when cameras do weird things. My favorite pic that I have is double exposure of my son's fifth birthday party superimposed on a picture of him when he was one. I'm bad with remembering what film I've used.

Who says ghosts necessarily are souls?

Creatures who can leave their body, move about and think, and defy the laws of phisics, after their body and brain are completely rotted OBIVOUSLY mean there is an immortal sentience beyond the brain and body. That is exactly what a soul is. Duh.
What COULD run the ghost's body besides a soul? If ghosts DO exist, then sould DO exist. It's simple logic.

its not going to kill people if they insist they aren't real and for most of humanity its as obvious as the sky being blue...not worth arguing over.

32% of Americans believe in ghosts: Source (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_5_29/ai_n15400020). Obviously in under-developed countries this will be higher, though they also believe all other sorts of crazy shit that has been disproven.

In Soviet Russia, ghost is haunted by you!

All your scared are belong to ghost.

Back in my old Middle School (which was built in the 1920s) it was haunted by a ghost (never found out what the ghost name was or why it's there) who likes to run down hallways and open and shut doors. The favorite place was the media center where I experienced one of my first hauntings at. One late afternoon I was doing homework in the media center (it was the only quiet spot in the school) and all the sudden a door which was in plain view of me jerked open and slammed back shut and then I heard running footsteps the footsteps ran down the path and to the front of the media center, another door jerked open and slammed shut and that was it. Back then I was scared out of my pants, but looking back on it, it's now a fond memory.

In 2001, the school did try an exorcism's but apparently it only increased the hauntings and made it more intense. I talked to a priest who was there. I really should go down to the local archives and see what happened at that school.

INCONTROVERTIBLE EVIDENCE! YOUR MEMORY FROM YEARS AGO (WHICH I AM SURE IS EXACTLY AS IT HAPPENED) DETAILING THE UNEXPLAINABLE PHENOMENA OF A DOOR CLOSING AND THE SOUND OF FOOTSTEPS HAS CONVINCED ME! THE GHOSTS ARE HERE!

EDIT:
Ghosts! HEAD FOR THE HILLS, FOLKS!
http://www.ammahls.com/random/we_are_going_to_die.gif

Creatures who can leave their body, move about and think, and defy the laws of phisics, after their body and brain are completely rotted OBIVOUSLY mean there is an immortal sentience beyond the brain and body. That is exactly what a soul is. Duh.
What COULD run the ghost's body besides a soul? If ghosts DO exist, then sould DO exist. It's simple logic.

You're assuming a ghost must be an ex-human. A person believing the ghost they just saw looked human doesn't make it human, any more than my saying a cloud looks like an airplane makes the cloud an airplane.

You're assuming a ghost must be an ex-human. A person believing the ghost they just saw looked human doesn't make it human, any more than my saying a cloud looks like an airplane makes the cloud an airplane.

I'm sorry, a ghost is an ex-human, or animal by definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost

Perhaps you are refering to a new form of life, or an extrademensional being, but not a ghost. If it's not an ex-human, then it ain't no ghost.

Do you believe in ghosts?

Have you ever seen one?

Do you know a (credible) person who has?

Doesn't need to be a hollywood-type ghost - I mean any old apparation. Tell your horrifying tale! :)

yes, no, yes.

yes, I believe in ghosts.

No, I didn'e SEE one, but several of us heard one. (see below)

several people here in Hawaii.


My story.

alone in a campsite, me and three friends open up a new tape. we pop it into my tape player and proceed to goof around.

the next day, we play back the tape and listen to the five voices on the tape.

yep... 5.

the four of us, and one voice in the background... chanting in a language I learned later to be old Hawaiian.

the flip side of the tape was still blank...

after listening for seveal moments (to make sure we all heard it) we popped the tape out and buried it.

yes, no, yes.

yes, I believe in ghosts.

No, I didn'e SEE one, but several of us heard one. (see below)

several people here in Hawaii.


My story.

alone in a campsite, me and three friends open up a new tape. we pop it into my tape player and proceed to goof around.

the next day, we play back the tape and listen to the five voices on the tape.

yep... 5.

the four of us, and one voice in the background... chanting in a language I learned later to be old Hawaiian.

the flip side of the tape was still blank...

after listening for seveal moments (to make sure we all heard it) we popped the tape out and buried it.

And, pray tell, what was this "chant" exactly? Was it composed of words (if so, what were they) or just a singing voice?

I'm sorry, a ghost is an ex-human, or animal by definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost

Perhaps you are refering to a new form of life, or an extrademensional being, but not a ghost. If it's not an ex-human, then it ain't no ghost.

I'm not so sure, there. Dictionary.com also includes the generic use of "ghost" for a "spiritual being," of some kind. I don't think that requires former existence as a person.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ghost

In any case, you can substitute ghost for apparition or "spiritual being," etc. I was being very general in asking the original question. :)

Do you believe in ghosts?

Have you ever seen one?

Do you know a (credible) person who has?

Doesn't need to be a hollywood-type ghost - I mean any old apparation. Tell your horrifying tale! :)
Ghosts make me sad. Here's why:

Most of the time, when people believe in stupid things, I just make fun of them.

But most people who believe in ghosts (at least the ones I've met) are people who have some sort of heart-breaking reasons for believing. Like this one guy I knew who believed he saw his dead grandfather when he went up to the cabin that they used to go to together before Grandpa died.

How the fuck do you insult somebody for really, really wanting to believe that their loved one is still around?

I understand that. I lost somebody very close to me. It was really sudden and awful. I would have given anything to have him be able to come back and talk to me, comfort me, just promise me that he was still okay and it was all going to be alright. I can't fault anybody for wanting that.

My story.

alone in a campsite, me and three friends open up a new tape. we pop it into my tape player and proceed to goof around.

the next day, we play back the tape and listen to the five voices on the tape.

yep... 5.

the four of us, and one voice in the background... chanting in a language I learned later to be old Hawaiian.

the flip side of the tape was still blank...

after listening for seveal moments (to make sure we all heard it) we popped the tape out and buried it.

Sounds like something from that lousy Kevin Bacon movie, but interesting nonetheless! :)

How the fuck do you insult somebody for really, really wanting to believe that their loved one is still around?

I understand that. I lost somebody very, very close to me. It was really sudden and awful. I would have given anything to have him be able to come back and talk to me, comfort me, just promise me that he was still okay and it was all going to be alright. I can't fault anybody for wanting that.

That was my whole reason for asking the question, as I mentioned in post #1. It really is tough to tell someone who has recently "seen" something that they didn't, even if the idea sounds really nutty to you in theory. Especially when they didn't "want" to see that thing and aren't happy to have had the experience at all. It's easier to be skeptical when someone's selling something. :p

I don't really believe in ghosts, but I've been in situations where I've seen things that I still have a difficult time explaining to myself and others.

So I'd say I'm open to the possibility.

I'm not so sure, there. Dictionary.com also includes the generic use of "ghost" for a "spiritual being," of some kind. I don't think that requires former existence as a person.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ghost

In any case, you can substitute ghost for apparition or "spiritual being," etc. I was being very general in asking the original question. :)

Spiritual and Athiest aren't compatable, so that's ruined. A "spirit" is a soul. Or, it's a "spirtual" (aka. devoted to God) persuit. Also, notice the first definition and 5th.
Either you are not an Athiest and believe in the soul, or you are refering to something not a ghost, but a different form of life that fuctions under unusual phisical laws.

Spiritual and Athiest aren't compatable, so that's ruined. A "spirit" is a soul. Or, it's a "spirtual" (aka. devoted to God) persuit. Also, notice the first definition and 5th.
Either you are not an Athiest and believe in the soul, or you are refering to something not a ghost, but a different form of life that fuctions under unusual phisical laws.

All I really meant to say was that something that is a spirit and appears as something recognizable (human, animal, etc.) could be thought of as a spirit of some kind that appears a certain way, rather than requiring belief that that thing was really alive and human or animal at one point. There's plenty of folk stories about the 'spirit' of nature, or the mountains, or a spring, etc. without needing the thing to have had a soul. Believing in an apparition doesn't seem to require belief in a soul, that's all.

INCONTROVERTIBLE EVIDENCE! YOUR MEMORY FROM YEARS AGO (WHICH I AM SURE IS EXACTLY AS IT HAPPENED) DETAILING THE UNEXPLAINABLE PHENOMENA OF A DOOR CLOSING AND THE SOUND OF FOOTSTEPS HAS CONVINCED ME! THE GHOSTS ARE HERE!

EDIT:
Ghosts! HEAD FOR THE HILLS, FOLKS!
http://www.ammahls.com/random/we_are_going_to_die.gif

I wasn't trying to convince you, the person asked for what experienced I've had and I shared it.

Spiritual and Athiest aren't compatable, so that's ruined.

Atheist refers to a person who lacks belief in God or gods. Technically speaking, it's completely possible for an atheist to believe in spirits or souls.

Creatures who can leave their body, move about and think, and defy the laws of phisics, after their body and brain are completely rotted OBIVOUSLY mean there is an immortal sentience beyond the brain and body. That is exactly what a soul is. Duh.
What COULD run the ghost's body besides a soul? If ghosts DO exist, then sould DO exist. It's simple logic.

Why do you assume "ghost" must mean human soul?
I don't think there is anything very obvious about this that you should say DUH. People have been arguing about whether the soul even exists or not for centuries.

How do you know they are defying the law of "phisics"? Which laws are they violating? People see things and photograph things that aren't there pretty commonly, and aren't thought of as being insane or stupid, as you suggest. http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/elements/infmrge.htm

Why do you assume they have left a body?

Why do you think it at all appropriate to suggest that someone else's comments are stupid when you're making a lot of assumptions?

Do I believe in ghosts...no, not at all. However, I do believe that it would be freaking awesome to be able to "float" around after I die and scare the living daylights out of people.

But I'm sure thats just me.

Sorry, do what?

What were your methods. You know, how did you do your rituals, and so on.

Why do you assume they have left a body?


Because that's what Ghost means:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost

And, pray tell, what was this "chant" exactly? Was it composed of words (if so, what were they) or just a singing voice?chanting. but I don't understand Hawaiian. so I couldn't tell you what it was saying exactly.

Sounds like something from that lousy Kevin Bacon movie, but interesting nonetheless! :) we did think it was a prank, but being that we were alone in the mountains...

some legends say that one of the Nightmarchers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightmarchers) trails is close to where we were. but that's unconfirmed.

Spiritual and Athiest aren't compatable, so that's ruined. A "spirit" is a soul. Or, it's a "spirtual" (aka. devoted to God) persuit. Also, notice the first definition and 5th.
Either you are not an Athiest and believe in the soul, or you are refering to something not a ghost, but a different form of life that fuctions under unusual phisical laws.

You're actually telling someone else what they believe?
Geez.

Atheism means not believing in God.

A-, a prefix meaning against or not.

Theism -- meaning a belief in God.

Because that's what Ghost means:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost

Wiki can be posted by anyone. Try again.


Main Entry:
1ghost Listen to the pronunciation of 1ghost
Pronunciation:
\ˈgōst\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English gost, gast, from Old English gāst; akin to Old High German geist spirit, Sanskrit heḍa anger
Date:
before 12th century

1: the seat of life or intelligence : soul <give up the ghost>2: a disembodied soul; especially : the soul of a dead person believed to be an inhabitant of the unseen world or to appear to the living in bodily likeness3: spirit, demon4 a: a faint shadowy trace <a ghost of a smile> b: the least bit <not a ghost of a chance>5: a false image in a photographic negative or on a television screen caused especially by reflection6: one who ghostwrites7: a red blood cell that has lost its hemoglobin.

www.m-w.com

What's to say this definition is less accurate than yours?

Or this one:


—Synonyms 1. apparition, phantom, phantasm, wraith, revenant; shade, spook. Ghost, specter, spirit all refer to the disembodied soul of a person. A ghost is the soul or spirit of a deceased person, which appears or otherwise makes its presence known to the living: the ghost of a drowned child. A specter is a ghost or apparition of more or less weird, unearthly, or terrifying aspect: a frightening specter. Spirit is often interchangeable with ghost but may mean a supernatural being, usually with an indication of good or malign intent toward human beings: the spirit of a friend; an evil spirit.

Modern Language Association (MLA):
"ghost." Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Random House, Inc. 25 May. 2007. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ghost>.

chanting. but I don't understand Hawaiian. so I couldn't tell you what it was saying exactly.

we did think it was a prank, but being that we were alone in the mountains...

Did it ever occur to you that there was a simple explanation for the sound? Examples include the wind, or a naturally occuring rhythm on the tape that sounds similar to a chant which might occur because of a defect on the tape or with the hardware or which occurs naturally because of the frequencies/volumes/etc that were being recorded.

Wiki can be posted by anyone. Try again.

Allright. What kind of thing would you like me to post? I showed you the definition of ghost, which says it must be an ex-living creature. If that isn't good-enough for you, I will attempt to accomidate your requirements, but as I previously stated I require parameters for them.

Wiki can be posted by anyone. Try again.


Main Entry:
1ghost Listen to the pronunciation of 1ghost
Pronunciation:
\ˈgōst\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English gost, gast, from Old English gāst; akin to Old High German geist spirit, Sanskrit heḍa anger
Date:
before 12th century

1: the seat of life or intelligence : soul <give up the ghost>2: a disembodied soul; especially : the soul of a dead person believed to be an inhabitant of the unseen world or to appear to the living in bodily likeness3: spirit, demon4 a: a faint shadowy trace <a ghost of a smile> b: the least bit <not a ghost of a chance>5: a false image in a photographic negative or on a television screen caused especially by reflection6: one who ghostwrites7: a red blood cell that has lost its hemoglobin.

www.m-w.com

Okay you proved my point for me. :D A soul/spirit, often that of a deceased individual.

Theories on what Ghost are varies, here are some of the ones that I've heard of.

1. Souls of the deceased that are still on earth for various of reason.

2. Supernatural spirits like angels, God/Goddess, it varies from religion and people.

3. Some people believe that they are entities from a different plane of existence .

So as you can see, we got a long way to go on figuring out what ghosts are and whether or not they're real.

I believe there is, but never seen one. I want to go inside a real haunted house.

Okay you proved my point for me. :D A soul/spirit, often that of a deceased individual.

I certainly did not. You stated categorically that it could ONLY be an ex-human, so I wouldn't crow too loudly about being right. Or do you just ignore what's inconvenient to your argument?

Let's review:

Originally Posted by The Parkus Empire View Post
Creatures who can leave their body, move about and think, and defy the laws of phisics, after their body and brain are completely rotted OBIVOUSLY mean there is an immortal sentience beyond the brain and body. That is exactly what a soul is. Duh.
What COULD run the ghost's body besides a soul? If ghosts DO exist, then sould DO exist. It's simple logic.

Did it ever occur to you that there was a simple explanation for the sound? Examples include the wind, or a naturally occuring rhythm on the tape that sounds similar to a chant which might occur because of a defect on the tape or with the hardware or which occurs naturally because of the frequencies/volumes/etc that were being recorded.
yep... we considered all that...
except
1) no wind that night. (one of the things we talked about on the tape was the lack of wind... which was good since the latch on the cabin was broken.)
2) other background sounds could be herd, sounds we remember, the moo'ing of a cow that we heard, some Gecko's calling... all that we heard got caught on the tape, but the chanting? on the tape but no one recalls hearing it the night before.
3) a defect on the tape/recorder? possibly. but funny, the chanting didn't start up from the start of the tape, but minutes later. and all the other recordings before and after that night didn't have the same chanting. even when we returned a month later.

and if you heard old Hawaiian chanting, it's not a simple rhythm that can be replicated by a combination of sounds. and as for a defect? it would be ONE DOOZY of a defect to only be caught that ONE time.

Remember, We could make out distinct words in Hawaiian by that voice.

Is anyone familiar with T.A.P.S. (http://the-atlantic-paranormal-society.com/)? T.A.P.S. (http://the-atlantic-paranormal-society.com/) is The Atlantic Paranormal Society that actually goes around the USA and they don't exactly try to prove that a place is haunted, they actually try to disprove that a place is haunted. They have their own TV show on Sci-Fi called "Ghost Hunters". T.A.P.S. (http://the-atlantic-paranormal-society.com/) actually seem to be a very creditable group when it comes to looking into the world of ghost and the Paranormal. There's a branch here in North Carolina that I'm thinking about joining.

Do I believe in Ghosts?I've seen them many times before in my life.During both the day and at night.First saw one when I was 2 years old.
Alot of times I've heard stories of people who thought they saw a Ghost but it was just their shadow or reflection then panicked.

I believe there is, but never seen one. I want to go inside a real haunted house.
well... we had a haunted office here at the hospital I work for.

one computer, not connected to the internet, was consistantly causing problems.

in the span of 2 months...
the floppy drive (a:) had to be replaced 5 times
the Hard drive replaced 3 times and rebuilt 4 times
the monitor replaced twice
the CPU replaced three times
and every day, EVERY DAY the Hard drive was infected with various viruses.

Our electricians checked the plugs and wiring, we checked the network cables and connectivity.

there were no physical damage to any wiring or cables.

no other computer in the office was affected, only this one.

and the whole thing stopped causing problems when we hired a Kahuna (Hawaiian Priest) to bless the office.


now the building used to be the old (read VERY old) dormatories for the Nurses while they worked at the hospital, and the office was one of their rooms.

I believe that there are fairly common physical phenomena that resemble people's conceptions of ghosts in some ways.

I do not believe that any such entities exist.

I certainly did not. You stated categorically that it could ONLY be an ex-human, so I wouldn't crow too loudly about being right. Or do you just ignore what's inconvenient to your argument?

Let's review:

No, no, I said an ex-living creature. I specfically said an ex-animal could be a ghost for instance. Ex-human is just easier to say. What I DO maintain (and you can quote this) is that for ghosts to exist, souls have to exist too. A ghost is merlely a disembodied soul/spirit, and I defy you to find one real definition that disagrees. A ghost can be an Angel (Holy Ghost) which you did prove...you got me there, I wasn't thinking and I caught it right in the kisser. However it HAS to have a soul, because essentially, that's all it is.

I don't believe in ghosts.

First saw one when I was 2 years old.

Are you kidding me? You seriously expect us to believe that you have an accurate memory of seeing a ghost when you were two? That is absurd. Even if you did recognise it as something paranormal at the time, the fact that you were two obviously means that you had almost no ability to actually interpret it as something else merely because of your lack of knowlegde/experience/critical thinking. Not to mention that in the interveining years your memory has changed to remember it how you want to. I don't have a problem with you posting your more recent 'experiences', but I wouldn't bother to mention seeing a ghost when you were two.

<snip>

Uh huh. See, you obviously very much believe that it was some sort of ghost that made those noises. And, after denying my explanations, I'm still a little bamboozled, but the fact is for those sounds to be physically recorded onto the tape they had to be created by a physical force. This could be a person projecting their voice, it could be some sort of sound created by the movement of air through the window/room/etc, it could be an affect of a certain sound reacting strangely to the microphone, it could be a defect on a section of the tape etc. The fact is that it was obviously on the tape, right? Ergo it physically exists and thus had to be created with physical sound waves, which are only created by physical vibrations etc. How exactly do you suppose that an aparrition did this?

Just found some possible reasons for the "chant" on wiki:


Interference: Certain recordings, especially those recorded on devices which contain RLC circuitry, represent radio signals of voices/sounds from broadcast sources.[42] Interference from CB Radio transmissions and wireless baby minders, or anomalies generated though cross modulation from other electronic devices, are all documented phenomena.[41] It is even possible for circuits to resonate without any internal power source by means of radio reception.[42]
Auditory pareidolia or Rorschach Audio: A condition created when the brain incorrectly interprets random patterns as being familiar patterns.[43] In the case of EVP it could result in an observer interpreting random noise on an audio recording as being the familiar sound of a human voice.[41][44] The propensity for an apparent voice heard in white noise recordings to be in a language understood well by those researching it, rather than in an unfamiliar language, has been cited as evidence of this[41], and a broad class of phenomena referred to as Rorschach Audio has been described as a global explanation for all manifestations of EVP [45] [46] [47] [48]
Apophenia Related to, but distinct from pareidolia.[49] Defined as "the spontaneous finding of connections or meaning in things which are random, unconnected or meaningless", has also been put forward as a possible explanation.[5][50]
Capture errors: Anomalies created by the method used to capture audio signals, such as noise generated through the over-amplification of a signal at the point of recording.[41][51]
Processing artifacts: Artifacts created during attempts to boost the clarity of an existing recording through methods such as re-sampling, frequency isolation, and noise reduction/enhancement, until they take on qualities significantly different from those that were present in the original recording.[52][41]

Yes, I believe there is something that survives physical death and for some reason sometimes remains among living people.

I've never actually seen an apparition, but I've heard and felt things in a family member's home that was reputed to be haunted. In fact, everybody that lived there had some sort of weird experience: things like hearing strange sounding voices, hollow sounding footsteps, laughing, the piano playing, and a deadbolted door slamming in the middle of the night that awakened everybody. They would check the door(still locked)and the entire house and nothing was ever found out of place, no intruders, etc. The feeling in some of the upstairs bedrooms was sort of oppressive....

But, only people who have had firsthand experience or were close to it will ever understand and not be narrowmindedly skeptical. The closeminded on the subject are just the types who will always be so no matter what. I think they are almost afraid of the idea.:rolleyes:

Yes, I believe there is something that survives physical death and for some reason sometimes remains among living people.

I've never actually seen an apparition, but I've heard and felt things in a family member's home that was reputed to be haunted. In fact, everybody that lived there had some sort of weird experience: things like hearing strange sounding voices, hollow sounding footsteps, laughing, the piano playing, and a deadbolted door slamming in the middle of the night that awakened everybody. They would check the door(still locked)and the entire house and nothing was ever found out of place, no intruders, etc. The feeling in some of the upstairs bedrooms was sort of oppressive....

But, only people who have had firsthand experience or were close to it will ever understand and not be narrowmindedly skeptical. The closeminded on the subject are just the types who will always be so no matter what. I think they are almost afraid of the idea.:rolleyes:

Afraid? That's a laugh, considering one of the prime reasons people believe in this bullshit is to overcome their fear of death and the fact that there is no afterlife.

Afraid? That's a laugh, considering one of the prime reasons people believe in this bullshit is to overcome their fear of death and the fact that there is no afterlife.

So what scientific evidence do you have that there is no afterlife?

So what scientific evidence do you have that there is no afterlife?

Our bodies stop functioning and we stop living... Umm, what else do you want? The onus is on you to provide evidence for an afterlife, considering the normal state of affairs pretty much points the other way... What with being dead and all, and our bodies rotting into the dirt. How exactly do you propse we keep living?

Afraid? That's a laugh, considering one of the prime reasons people believe in this bullshit is to overcome their fear of death and the fact that there is no afterlife.

How did I know that you would be the first one to reply.:D There has to be some reason the people like you become so vehement about it. If it exists, ghosts or otherwise, then it doesn't matter; if they don't exist then it doesn't matter. Both of which mean there is no reason to be shrill about it. What strange reactions.

And,no, the reason people believe is because they are not going to deny a clear and obvious indication of their senses. To doubt everything you see is just as bad as believing without question. Also, what makes you so smugly certain that people who had these occurrences didn't question them on the spot?

How did I know that you would be the first one to reply.:D

Because it is midday and rainy and I have nothing better to do. :D

There has to be some reason the people like you become so vehement about it. If it exists, ghosts or otherwise, then it doesn't matter; if they don't exist then it doesn't matter. Both of which mean there is no reason to be shrill about it. What strange reactions.

I'm just simply fascinated that the otherwise intelligent people of NSG could be such a bunch off dumbasses when it comes to ghosts. For God's sake- GHOSTS! Are you people five? I react the same way when discussing the moon hoax theory for example, or even when trying to convince someone that something they believe is wrong when it is. A few weeks ago my friend and I were arguing over who was the Russian president. I kept telling him it was Putin but he wouldn't accept it.

And,no, the reason people believe is because they are not going to deny a clear and obvious indication of their senses.

I could quite clearly hear a door open while in bed one night and walk through the house and find no doors open, so I am going to deny the fact that I heard a door open since I obviously didn't

To doubt everything you see is just as bad as believing without question. Also, what makes you so smugly certain that people who had these occurrences didn't question them on the spot?

I'm sure many of them did, and many of them were at a loss to explain it. That is fine; this just means they aren't aware of all of the possible explanations.

Because it is midday and rainy and I have nothing better to do. :D



I'm just simply fascinated that the otherwise intelligent people of NSG could be such a bunch off dumbasses when it comes to ghosts. For God's sake- GHOSTS! Are you people five? I react the same way when discussing the moon hoax theory for example, or even when trying to convince someone that something they believe is wrong when it is. A few weeks ago my friend and I were arguing over who was the Russian president. I kept telling him it was Putin but he wouldn't accept it.



I could quite clearly hear a door open while in bed one night and walk through the house and find no doors open, so I am going to deny the fact that I heard a door open since I obviously didn't



I'm sure many of them did, and many of them were at a loss to explain it. That is fine; this just means they aren't aware of all of the possible explanations.

Just to finish it off because I've heard the same things before; some of the'scientific'explanations given for things related to ghosts, etc, are sometimes more farfetched and unlikely than believing in ghosts. I've had people try to tell me that the things that were experienced by a half dozen or more people simultaneously were the result of a shared hallucination. I guess everybody was sharing the same mind. Others have tried to say that it was the result of mental turmoil like a strong emotional state from one person causing these physical phenomena. Some will say anything as long as they can feel more comfortable denying that there may be a future existence in some way. :headbang:

No, no, I said an ex-living creature. I specfically said an ex-animal could be a ghost for instance. Ex-human is just easier to say. What I DO maintain (and you can quote this) is that for ghosts to exist, souls have to exist too. A ghost is merlely a disembodied soul/spirit, and I defy you to find one real definition that disagrees. A ghost can be an Angel (Holy Ghost) which you did prove...you got me there, I wasn't thinking and I caught it right in the kisser. However it HAS to have a soul, because essentially, that's all it is.

Animals have souls? Not according to what many Christian sects believe.
Demons have souls?

Why MUST it have a soul?

A simple question for Proggresica;

Do you believe that you know everything that there is to know in the Universe?

Animals have souls? Not according to what many Christian sects believe.
Demons have souls?

Why MUST it have a soul?

Aren't Demons really fallen angels that fell into Hell with Lucifer after he was defeated by God and his Army?

Aren't Demons really fallen angels that fell into Hell with Lucifer after he was defeated by God and his Army?

Do they have souls?

A simple question for Proggresica;

Do you believe that you know everything that there is to know in the Universe?

Not personally, of course. But the universe is governed by the laws of science, and I think we have a sufficent knowledge of these rules to rule out the possibility of an afterlife as well as ghosts.

Do they have souls?

Why would angels (fallen or not) need souls, they were never living. I always thought that only humans and animals have soul.

Not personally, of course. But the universe is governed by the laws of science, and I think we have a sufficent knowledge of these rules to rule out the possibility of an afterlife as well as ghosts.

Ok, so what law of science says that there's no afterlife or ghost?

Ok, so what law of science says that there's no afterlife or ghost?

The onus is not on me to prove they don't exist. There is nothing to suggest that either should naturally exist. You give me evidence that there is an afterlife or that ghosts are real and I will try and refute it as best as I can.

The onus is not on me to prove they don't exist. There is nothing to suggest that either should naturally exist. You give me evidence that there is an afterlife or that ghosts are real and I will try and refute it as best as I can.

That's just the thing though, I can't prove to you that there is an afterlife and that there are ghost, just as you can't prove to me the opposite. You can't prove it or disprove it.

I had some psychology classes in college. I remember a story about rather a big group of people that saw some UFO near Las Vegas or something.

People stopped their car and look to it. They were all sure they saw an UFO.

To make a long story short, it was later proven that it was nothing more than a weather balloon. What actually happened was that people convinced each other that they were looking at an UFO. It was a kind of mass hysteria.

So when even a big group saw ‘something’ than this will not say it is for real.
Well...technically...they saw a flying object and it was not identified (until later), so at the time they saw it, it was an Unidentified Flying Object. As for the "mass hysteria," let's not be too dismissive of people out of hand. "Mass hysteria" is what happened when Orson Welles' radio broadcast of "War of the Worlds" caused a public panic because people who missed the start of the show did not realize that it wasn't a real news broadcast.

What happens when people all see something and all decide that it is something -- UFO or whatever -- is people observing a phenomenon, discussing the data they have available (in this case, nothing much), and agreeing upon an interpretive conclusion (in this case, the wrong one).

Back to the ghost thing now…

Do you all people realize that when ghost are real that all laws about physics are worthless?
Such a statement is based on a presumption of what ghosts are. Since we have no data on which to make such a presumption, how do you know that, if ghosts are ever proven to exist, they would not fit into the laws of physics?

I’m wondering how many of those ghost believers are religious…
I have the feeling that only few agnostic and atheist people believe in ghosts, no?
Another statement based on a presumption, this time about who says what about ghosts. That presumption is easily belied by a reading of the common literature and websites about the paranormal. It is true that many are written by true believers, but not all of them are religiously motivated. Far from it. And there are a healthy number of people who investigate claims of paranormal events from the standpoint of skepticism, but they are too open-minded to say that there is no such thing as ghosts. They only say that the evidence presented does not prove that there are ghosts.

About the WWI battle story. That’s so typical. It happened a long time ago and it is almost not verifiable. Now, by accident I know that story, only the setting was different, the battlefield ghost story I know, happened in WWII.

I consider it as an urban legend.

So?

It was asked why groups don't report seeing ghosts. I pointed out several kinds of instances in which groups of people do report seeing ghosts. That does not imply that the reports are accurate, only that they exist.

Creatures who can leave their body, move about and think, and defy the laws of phisics, after their body and brain are completely rotted OBIVOUSLY mean there is an immortal sentience beyond the brain and body. That is exactly what a soul is. Duh.
Duh, no it isn't. Concepts of "soul" are quite varied and complex. So are ideas of what ghosts and hauntings are. In fact, a notion possibly even more popular among so-called ghosthunters is that hauntings are a king of memory imprint upon an environment that some people and some kinds of electronic instruments can detect ("residual hauntings"). Nothing to do with souls, creatures, leaving bodies or anything of that sort at all.

What COULD run the ghost's body besides a soul? If ghosts DO exist, then sould DO exist. It's simple logic.
But, as I said, ghost concepts are so varied that it is not valid, without more data, to assume that what "runs" a ghost is a soul, so by simple logic, your assertion does not stand because it is based on an unfounded presumption.

Is anyone familiar with T.A.P.S. (http://the-atlantic-paranormal-society.com/)? T.A.P.S. (http://the-atlantic-paranormal-society.com/) is The Atlantic Paranormal Society that actually goes around the USA and they don't exactly try to prove that a place is haunted, they actually try to disprove that a place is haunted. They have their own TV show on Sci-Fi called "Ghost Hunters". T.A.P.S. (http://the-atlantic-paranormal-society.com/) actually seem to be a very creditable group when it comes to looking into the world of ghost and the Paranormal. There's a branch here in North Carolina that I'm thinking about joining.
I love that show. I mentioned them here a while ago -- page 3 or so, I think -- when I said that if one thinks their house is haunted, they should call a plumber or electrician before an exorcist. The leaders of T.A.P.S. are plumbers for Roto Rooter. I saw them once debunk a claim of a ghostly odor of urine in a prison building that had been abandoned for about 100 years -- they toured the area and did notice the smell. They also noticed that they were standing near a vent, and that the vent was just under the cells where the inmates had lived at a time when there was no indoor plumbing in the cells. Then they gave us a long plumber's lecture about the nature of urine and how it crystallizes and continues smelling pretty much forever, etc, etc. Experts. ;)

Afraid? That's a laugh, considering one of the prime reasons people believe in this bullshit is to overcome their fear of death and the fact that there is no afterlife.
And what's the prime reason some people believe in being aggressively rude even when everyone else is being polite?

Our bodies stop functioning and we stop living... Umm, what else do you want? The onus is on you to provide evidence for an afterlife, considering the normal state of affairs pretty much points the other way... What with being dead and all, and our bodies rotting into the dirt. How exactly do you propse we keep living?
Afterlife. As in something that occurs when life is over. As in not during life. As in "keep living" is not applicable. Pointing out that afterlife is not life is not an argument that proves there is no afterlife.

Ghosts are created by fearful minds short on information in an attempt to explain a situation.

Ghosts are created by fearful minds short on information in an attempt to explain a situation.
Yes. That is the explanation I generally rely on when talking about ghost beliefs and about people's personal experiences, with the additional proviso that it depends on the traditional cultural influences of their society.

However, while that explanation covers what people say about ghosts and why they say it, it does not address the question of whether there is or can be such a thing as a ghost. It doesn't touch on that at all.

So I was talking to an acquaintance a couple hours ago, a guy I used to work with but don't really know that well. Regular small-talk. Reminded him about snakebite season coming up, etc. Then things get wierd.

He hits me with: "I saw something the other day." Odd emphasis on "saw."

That's right - a ghost. I don't believe in ghosts, never have. But telling someone to their face what they did or didn't see was rather difficult. The guy was convinced that he saw "something" in the shape of a person, threatening him for a second or so.

So naturally, I offered a few suggestions: light reflecting off a car, shadow from a bending tree, etc. I mentioned that I see odd humanlike shadows when in a state of insomnia, all that stuff. The guy was adamant. It happened in full sunlight today around noonish (making shadows unlikely), and he had had regular sleep (making insomnia unlikely, which he says doesn't cause hallucination for him anyway). It could only have been a ghost, to his mind.

Like I said, this guy's barely an acquaintance, but he was willing to include me in a private incident without any hesitation, despite it being very personal. On top of that, he's never struck me as a kook - in fact, he's a real "salt of the earth" type: quiet, religious, hard-working, etc., and swears he doesn't believe in "that sort of thing" either. Until he saw "something."

Naturally, I'm going to be on his case about it to see what he makes of it, but I thought I'd ask the question here:

Do you believe in ghosts?

Have you ever seen one?

Do you know a (credible) person who has?

Doesn't need to be a hollywood-type ghost - I mean any old apparation. Tell your horrifying tale! :)

They're real, my mum and I were attacked by one in public with witnesses.

Edit: Secondly I have photographic evidence of the ghosts seconds before one grabbed my leg and the other punched or dis something with the camera causing it to explode.

They're real, my mum and I were attacked by one in public with witnesses.

Edit: Secondly I have photographic evidence of the ghosts seconds before one grabbed my leg and the other punched or dis something with the camera causing it to explode.

Can't tell if you're being serious or not.

Can't tell if you're being serious or not.

Serious. They're real and I say to anyone who thinks otherwise, go to the Phillipines and go to a graveyard or a tomb where many people died before and they'll show up.

I was almost killed by a demon once.

Serious. They're real and I say to anyone who thinks otherwise, go to the Phillipines and go to a graveyard or a tomb where many people died before and they'll show up.

Can I see the picture?

I was almost killed by a demon once.

I got into a minor hissy fit with a demon once. True. Years ago, many members of my social circle were occultists/students of esoteric stuff, and we used to throw these massive parties (50+ people) during which -- along with dancing and music and food and drink, etc -- we held ouija seances. I often participated in them. During these sessions, we invited random "drop-ins," meaning we weren't trying to invoke the spirit of anyone in particular. One time we got a message from "someone" who called themselves "Murmur." Murmur said hello and then shut up and other "beings" did their thing until we closed the session. Thereafter, Murmur would check in at the beginning of every ouija session, and he seemed most interested in me. Murmur would say hello to me by name and then be quiet. But it seemed that Murmur was monitoring our seances because on a few occasions, he would interrupt ouija conversations by moving the pointer very violently and then spelling out something like "this person is lying." Once, the group got mildly freaked out when Murmur interrupted the session, but the group tried to continue anyway, and Murmur seemed to become agitated and spelled out the word "liar" over and over and then spelled "end session now" with very emphatic movements.

Murmur would come into the ouija session any time I was there, whether I had my hand on the pointer or not, but if I was not close enough (doing something else at the party), he would not allow the session to continue until I joined. He would spell out orders to the other people for them to go and get me. After a while, I got annoyed at this and refused to come. After several such requests, I angrily told the person who was sent to get me, "Tell Murmur I don't work for him." After that, no ouija seances produced any results at all for our group. Apparently, I had offended Murmur and he shut down the game.

Years later, looking through a translation of a medieval "Who's Who in Heaven and Hell" compendium of demons and angels, I found Murmur. He was listed as an underworld demon who was a guardian of the gateways between this world and the next, in charge of music (oddly) and necromancy (divination by communication with the dead).

Now, of course, considering the group involved at those parties, it is possible, even probable, that no demons or ghosts were present and that some other strange thing was going on, namely ESP. I say this because although I had no notion of any such character as Murmur at the time, there were so many occult enthusiasts there, that I am sure someone, in or out of the seance session, must have known about him. As a paranormal experiment, I think ouija is much more about ESP or sensitivity to extremely small physical signals, than it is about ghosts.

Animals have souls? Not according to what many Christian sects believe.
Demons have souls?

Why MUST it have a soul?

First-off, I'm not a Christian, so to-hell with THEIR ideas about souls.

Next, why wouldn't Demons have souls? If the Christians believe in them, I don't see why being evil removes your soul.

Finally, why MUST it have a soul? Because in essence, a ghost is the idea of a soul seperated from a body, yet still remaining on Earth. That's what makes it a ghost. If it is not a disebodied soul, them pricisely WHAT (supposing they exist) is it?

First-off, I'm not a Christian, so to-hell with THEIR ideas about souls.

Next, why wouldn't Demons have souls? If the Christians believe in them, I don't see why being evil removes your soul.

Finally, why MUST it have a soul? Because in essence, a ghost is the idea of a soul seperated from a body, yet still remaining on Earth. That's what makes it a ghost. If it is not a disebodied soul, them pricisely WHAT (supposing they exist) is it?

I belive Demons are soles. Demons or the Agents of the Devil are unperfected unresurected beings that followed his plan instead of God's. But even though I do belive in God and the afterlife I do belive in Ghosts that are still on earth. According to my teachings anyway when a person dies they will go to either Paradise or Spirit Prison to awat judgment (Sort of like Limbo or Purgatory) and the fact is we really don't know where these realms are. Could they be still on the Earth? Absolutley

I belive Demons are soles. Demons or the Agents of the Devil are unperfected unresurected beings that followed his plan instead of God's. But even though I do belive in God and the afterlife I do belive in Ghosts that are still on earth. According to my teachings anyway when a person dies they will go to either Paradise or Spirit Prison to awat judgment (Sort of like Limbo or Purgatory) and the fact is we really don't know where these realms are. Could they be still on the Earth? Absolutley

What is your teachings?

I got into a minor hissy fit with a demon once. True. Years ago, many members of my social circle were occultists/students of esoteric stuff, and we used to throw these massive parties (50+ people) during which -- along with dancing and music and food and drink, etc -- we held ouija seances. I often participated in them. During these sessions, we invited random "drop-ins," meaning we weren't trying to invoke the spirit of anyone in particular. One time we got a message from "someone" who called themselves "Murmur." Murmur said hello and then shut up and other "beings" did their thing until we closed the session. Thereafter, Murmur would check in at the beginning of every ouija session, and he seemed most interested in me. Murmur would say hello to me by name and then be quiet. But it seemed that Murmur was monitoring our seances because on a few occasions, he would interrupt ouija conversations by moving the pointer very violently and then spelling out something like "this person is lying." Once, the group got mildly freaked out when Murmur interrupted the session, but the group tried to continue anyway, and Murmur seemed to become agitated and spelled out the word "liar" over and over and then spelled "end session now" with very emphatic movements.

Murmur would come into the ouija session any time I was there, whether I had my hand on the pointer or not, but if I was not close enough (doing something else at the party), he would not allow the session to continue until I joined. He would spell out orders to the other people for them to go and get me. After a while, I got annoyed at this and refused to come. After several such requests, I angrily told the person who was sent to get me, "Tell Murmur I don't work for him." After that, no ouija seances produced any results at all for our group. Apparently, I had offended Murmur and he shut down the game.

Years later, looking through a translation of a medieval "Who's Who in Heaven and Hell" compendium of demons and angels, I found Murmur. He was listed as an underworld demon who was a guardian of the gateways between this world and the next, in charge of music (oddly) and necromancy (divination by communication with the dead).

Now, of course, considering the group involved at those parties, it is possible, even probable, that no demons or ghosts were present and that some other strange thing was going on, namely ESP. I say this because although I had no notion of any such character as Murmur at the time, there were so many occult enthusiasts there, that I am sure someone, in or out of the seance session, must have known about him. As a paranormal experiment, I think ouija is much more about ESP or sensitivity to extremely small physical signals, than it is about ghosts.

I've never used a ouija board. No, this as a much more sinister affair. I don't remember the time, but this great Black Cloud came out of nowhere. It was solid. Solid like you an I are solid. It felt, Evil, and wrong. Just, wrong. It had no other definition, no other way to describe it, aside from these two burning red eyes. They were at what I assume had to be the head.

It was choking me, it had what felt like two Ice cold hands wrapped around my neck. I literally could not breath.

I had just finished reading a section of the bible, and was filled with pious holy thoughts, and I guess they pissed something off. Demonic is the only way I can think of to describe it.

At the Time all I could do was Think "Please God help me!" and if it weren't for a mysterious Glowing white Ball that appeared afterwards taking the Evil Black Cloud away, I have no idea what would've happened.

No, I was not high. No, I am not insane. I was not on any medication. and Shadows and light tricks do not explain a 3-d void of light.

I belive Demons are soles. Demons or the Agents of the Devil are unperfected unresurected beings that followed his plan instead of God's. But even though I do belive in God and the afterlife I do belive in Ghosts that are still on earth. According to my teachings anyway when a person dies they will go to either Paradise or Spirit Prison to awat judgment (Sort of like Limbo or Purgatory) and the fact is we really don't know where these realms are. Could they be still on the Earth? Absolutley
And I believe that everything has a soul, even inanimate objects. And I believe that a soul can leave and re-enter a body even while the person/animal remains alive. So the restrictive definitions of what constitutes a ghost seem rather...oh, I don't know...cherrypicked, to me. Very convenient for arguing, "Ghost = A; I say A doesn't exist; Ergo, no such thing as ghost."

Also, I'd like to point out again that there is a difference between the idea of "ghost" and the idea of "haunting." What people experience are hauntings. What those hauntings are and what causes them is up for debate. Some people say it's ghosts. Others say different things.

I've never used a ouija board. No, this as a much more sinister affair. I don't remember the time, but this great Black Cloud came out of nowhere. It was solid. Solid like you an I are solid. It felt, Evil, and wrong. Just, wrong. It had no other definition, no other way to describe it, aside from these two burning red eyes. They were at what I assume had to be the head.

It was choking me, it had what felt like two Ice cold hands wrapped around my neck. I literally could not breath.

I had just finished reading a section of the bible, and was filled with pious holy thoughts, and I guess they pissed something off. Demonic is the only way I can think of to describe it.

At the Time all I could do was Think "Please God help me!" and if it weren't for a mysterious Glowing white Ball that appeared afterwards taking the Evil Black Cloud away, I have no idea what would've happened.

No, I was not high. No, I am not insane. I was not on any medication. and Shadows and light tricks do not explain a 3-d void of light.

What was happening that caused this black cloud to appear?

What was happening that caused this black cloud to appear?

I have no idea. It came out of nowhere, and as I said, the only thing I had been doing was reading the KJV Bible.

There was no smoking electrical outlet. Nothing had been burning in the room. there was no source for this to have come from. It is by far the most inexplicable incident I have ever had. Alternitivly, it was the most religous insident I've ever had, depending on what the readers of my post choose to believe.

I have no idea. It came out of nowhere, and as I said, the only thing I had been doing was reading the KJV Bible.

There was no smoking electrical outlet. Nothing had been burning in the room. there was no source for this to have come from. It is by far the most inexplicable incident I have ever had. Alternitivly, it was the most religous insident I've ever had, depending on what the readers of my post choose to believe.

That is interesting.

Definitely too much time spent watching Dereck Acora in the UK and TAPS in the US. Time would be much better spent discussing the potential of a good pint down the pub.

Definitely too much time spent watching Dereck Acora in the UK and TAPS in the US. Time would be much better spent discussing the potential of a good pint down the pub.

Yep, discussing something meaningless and dull is always time better spent.

I've never used a ouija board.
I hope my post didn't come off as belittling of your story. I didn't mean it like that at all.

No, this as a much more sinister affair. I don't remember the time, but this great Black Cloud came out of nowhere. It was solid. Solid like you an I are solid. It felt, Evil, and wrong. Just, wrong. It had no other definition, no other way to describe it, aside from these two burning red eyes. They were at what I assume had to be the head.

It was choking me, it had what felt like two Ice cold hands wrapped around my neck. I literally could not breath.

I had just finished reading a section of the bible, and was filled with pious holy thoughts, and I guess they pissed something off. Demonic is the only way I can think of to describe it.

At the Time all I could do was Think "Please God help me!" and if it weren't for a mysterious Glowing white Ball that appeared afterwards taking the Evil Black Cloud away, I have no idea what would've happened.

No, I was not high. No, I am not insane. I was not on any medication. and Shadows and light tricks do not explain a 3-d void of light.
Very early in this thread, I posted a story about my brother who told me that, while sleeping at a friend's apartment, he woke up to see what he firmly believed to be the spirit of Death looking at him from the doorway. The vision filled him with such terror that he was seriously affected by it for many weeks -- the feeling haunted him. The thing was, he was sleeping in a building in which, barely 24 hours earlier, a person had been murdered, shot to death, and my brother was told this shortly before going to bed. So, did he dream it or was it real? (A) There was no spirit of Death: My brother went to bed with a shocking tale of violent death fresh in his mind, so his imagination may very well have created this extremely vivid dream to express his shock. (B) There was a spirit of Death: A person had just been killed, and Death may have been present in the building and may have been looking at my brother who woke up and saw the spirit there and freaked out. Both are possible, but (A) is more likely.

You were reading the Bible, and you experienced an attack by what you took to be a demon. The reading had put your mind into a context of religious thoughts and imagery, just as the story of the murder put my brother's mind into a context of death and fear. Heaven and Hell, good and evil, angels and demons, these things go together, so even if you are consciously thinking of only one, its opposite will still be ready to your mind. You may very well have dozed off while reading and dreamed this attack. Its form mirrors classic nightmare experiences quite closely, from the appearance of the entity to the sense of dangerous menace to the choking off of breathing.

Now you may say that you were not asleep. I was once reading a magazine while sitting on a sofa. I was looking at a photo of a celebrity getting out of a limo. I would have sworn to you that I did not fall asleep. I certainly did not feel any of the sensations or symptoms of falling asleep and didn't even feel tired. I was just looking at the photo, when all of a sudden, it became animated like a video, set in the page of text in the magazine I was holding in my hands. I watched this video of the celebrity getting out of the limo, and waving to the crowds, and the paparazzi cameras flashing as the celebrity walked towards a red carpet for some gala event. Then I realized that my mother was calling my name from the other room, and the photo suddenly turned back to normal. But I felt no sensation of waking up, or snapping back to awareness, or anything like that. But it was just People. They don't have animated photos in their print magazine. So obviously, I must have at least partially dozed off and dreamed this bizarrely vivid experience.

In your case: (A) Maybe your religious thoughts did anger or attract an evil, malicious spirit that tried to kill you momentarily. Or (B) maybe like me, you fell into a brief waking-sleep state and dreamed something that your readings indirectly suggested.

Definitely too much time spent watching Dereck Acora in the UK and TAPS in the US. Time would be much better spent discussing the potential of a good pint down the pub.
You would rather spend your time talking about drinking a pint? Why not spend your time actually drinking it?

Of course, if you spend all your time talking about drinking, then you won't spend it talking about ghosts, whereas you can drink and talk about ghosts at the same time.

I don't remember if I had a point to make when I started typing this. But then I didn't see a point to your comment either. :p

Yep, discussing something meaningless and dull is always time better spent.

I make no attempt to belittle or denigrate anyone’s religious, spiritual or other firmly held beliefs that provide them comfort. However, the existence or non-existence of ghost/spirits or any other name you wish to apply to these phenomena is a mute point. They either exist or they do not. There is also no solid documented evidence to prove their existence nor is there evidence to discount there existence. However, like heaven and hell, if the do exist eventually we're all going to know one way or another. Unfortunately, by then we won't be in a position to provide the proof you’re looking for. (PS. Hard core believers that do not consider physical explanations for the "unexplained" do no service to their cause by inflexible and intransigent thinking. If I can be open to the possibility of the existence of “ghosts” you should equally be open to the possibility of their non-existence. Either way I’d still rather have a pint.)

I make no attempt to belittle or denigrate anyone’s religious, spiritual or other firmly held beliefs that provide them comfort. However, the existence or non-existence of ghost/spirits or any other name you wish to apply to these phenomena is a mute point. They either exist or they do not. There is also no solid documented evidence to prove their existence nor is there evidence to discount there existence. However, like heaven and hell, if the do exist eventually we're all going to know one way or another. Unfortunately, by then we won't be in a position to provide the proof you’re looking for. (PS. Hard core believers that do not consider physical explanations for the "unexplained" do no service to their cause by inflexible and intransigent thinking. If I can be open to the possibility of the existence of “ghosts” you should equally be open to the possibility of their non-existence. Either way I’d still rather have a pint.)
Oh, now I see the point of your comments, and it turns out I agree with you. :D

Yep, discussing something meaningless and dull is always time better spent.

Oh, now I see the point of your comments, and it turns out I agree with you. :D

Cheers! and goodnight.

From ghoulies and ghosties and long leggity beasties, and things that go bump in the night, may the good Lord (or Godess) deliver us.

I've seen Ghostbusters.me too :D

I've never used a ouija board. No, this as a much more sinister affair. I don't remember the time, but this great Black Cloud came out of nowhere. It was solid. Solid like you an I are solid. It felt, Evil, and wrong. Just, wrong. It had no other definition, no other way to describe it, aside from these two burning red eyes. They were at what I assume had to be the head.

It was choking me, it had what felt like two Ice cold hands wrapped around my neck. I literally could not breath.

I had just finished reading a section of the bible, and was filled with pious holy thoughts, and I guess they pissed something off. Demonic is the only way I can think of to describe it.

At the Time all I could do was Think "Please God help me!" and if it weren't for a mysterious Glowing white Ball that appeared afterwards taking the Evil Black Cloud away, I have no idea what would've happened.

No, I was not high. No, I am not insane. I was not on any medication. and Shadows and light tricks do not explain a 3-d void of light.

Have you ever heard of a phenomenon called "night terrors" or "night paralysis?" It's a purely physiological phenomenon, usually happening to children although it can happen to adults who are under stress or otherwise physically impaired (colds, medications, migraines or just mentally susceptible - there are lots of causes). It's usually interpreted as a demonic or diabolical attach by people who don't know what it is - you lose your ability to move or speak for a short time - it could be quite terrifying and if you didn't know it had a purely physical/neurological cause. I've had it happen once or twice. It is terrifying, but it is a natural, though not common occurance and is absolutely not harmful (unless you are prone to heart attacks). The passage you were reading in the Bible, particularly one of the more Hell and Damnation oriented passages, could have acted as a trigger. Shadows and light tricks may not explain it, but your mind playing tricks on you might - and you don't need to be drugged or insane for that to happen - you could just be very tired or stressed or taking perfectly legal meds.

Creatures who can leave their body, move about and think, and defy the laws of phisics, after their body and brain are completely rotted OBIVOUSLY mean there is an immortal sentience beyond the brain and body. That is exactly what a soul is. Duh.
What COULD run the ghost's body besides a soul? If ghosts DO exist, then sould DO exist. It's simple logic.

You are going to have to start paying some kind of airfield rent here in Conclusions, if you are just going to keep jumping in all the time...

You have created your arguemtn here... why are we talking about things leaving dead bodies? Or breaking physical laws? Where is the discussion of things that 'move about AND THINK'?

You've decided what you think the argument is about - but you've given no indication as to why anyone should follow your assumptions.

Most concepts of 'ghosts' involve no thinking - they are usually considered to be merely repeating actions they executed in life. Most concepts of ghosts involve obeying physical laws - but only as they apply to non-corporeal entities... one could consider the common idea to be akin to coherent neutrino emission, or a self-propogating focused locus of light projection.

And - what is a soul? We largely derive our terminology from early Hebrew teaching - but that Hebrew teaching said nothing about a 'soul' that suggested it lived beyond the extent of the flesh... quite the opposite, if anything.

No, no, I said an ex-living creature. I specfically said an ex-animal could be a ghost for instance. Ex-human is just easier to say. What I DO maintain (and you can quote this) is that for ghosts to exist, souls have to exist too. A ghost is merlely a disembodied soul/spirit, and I defy you to find one real definition that disagrees. A ghost can be an Angel (Holy Ghost) which you did prove...you got me there, I wasn't thinking and I caught it right in the kisser. However it HAS to have a soul, because essentially, that's all it is.

What if a 'ghost' is merely the static electricity liberated from a body that has lost the 'spark' (so to speak)..?

You would have a dead body... you would have a ghost originating within that body... but it would say nothing about 'souls'... right?

Aren't Demons really fallen angels that fell into Hell with Lucifer after he was defeated by God and his Army?

No.

Uh huh. See, you obviously very much believe that it was some sort of ghost that made those noises. And, after denying my explanations, I'm still a little bamboozled, not denying it, saying just saying it couldn't be those explinations you provided.
but the fact is for those sounds to be physically recorded onto the tape they had to be created by a physical force. This could be a person projecting their voice, it could be some sort of sound created by the movement of air through the window/room/etc, except to be loud enough to be picked up on the machine, at the volume that it was, we would've heard that while we were recording. no one did. Explain how a projected sound could be picked up on tape loud enough for everyone to hear, yet quiet enough for us NOT to hear it while recording?it could be an affect of a certain sound reacting strangely to the microphone, and I said, the sound didn't start at the beginning of the tape, but after several moments. so are you suggesting a sound reaction of that sort started up later, and maintained a steady reaction? we are not talking a buzz or a monotone chant, or something that stopped and started with any relationship with any other sound on the tape...
it could be a defect on a section of the tape etc. possible, except it was only on one side. most defects I encounter with new tapes would affect both sides of that same section.
The fact is that it was obviously on the tape, right? Ergo it physically exists and thus had to be created with physical sound waves, which are only created by physical vibrations etc. How exactly do you suppose that an aparrition did this?dunno. EVP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomena)?

Just found some possible reasons for the "chant" on wiki:

Interference: Certain recordings, especially those recorded on devices which contain RLC circuitry, represent radio signals of voices/sounds from broadcast sources.[42] Interference from CB Radio transmissions and wireless baby minders, or anomalies generated though cross modulation from other electronic devices, are all documented phenomena.[41] It is even possible for circuits to resonate without any internal power source by means of radio reception.[42] except were were up in the mountains. no radio signal nor CB signal. also, the tape recorder didn't have a radio reciever either.

Auditory pareidolia or Rorschach Audio: A condition created when the brain incorrectly interprets random patterns as being familiar patterns.[43] In the case of EVP it could result in an observer interpreting random noise on an audio recording as being the familiar sound of a human voice.[41][44] The propensity for an apparent voice heard in white noise recordings to be in a language understood well by those researching it, rather than in an unfamiliar language, has been cited as evidence of this[41], and a broad class of phenomena referred to as Rorschach Audio has been described as a global explanation for all manifestations of EVP [45] [46] [47] [48] so that's not it.

Apophenia Related to, but distinct from pareidolia.[49] Defined as "the spontaneous finding of connections or meaning in things which are random, unconnected or meaningless", has also been put forward as a possible explanation.[5][50] and since none of us knew any Hawaiian then... this proves nothing.

Capture errors: Anomalies created by the method used to capture audio signals, such as noise generated through the over-amplification of a signal at the point of recording.[41][51] since we were not amplifying our voices... that cant be it.

Processing artifacts: Artifacts created during attempts to boost the clarity of an existing recording through methods such as re-sampling, frequency isolation, and noise reduction/enhancement, until they take on qualities significantly different from those that were present in the original recording.[52][41] no boosting. just normal playback.

not denying your attempts to explain it. I am seriously considering each point.

now why didn't the same phenominom repeat itself everytime we went there, before and after that incident?

oh and funny that your explinations fall under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenaEVP with this heading...

Virtually no scientific literature on EVP exists, although skeptics have put forward various naturalistic explanations for the alleged phenomenon.[41] These include:

perhaps they should hae some scientific studies on EVP... :p