NationStates Jolt Archive

The three theories of political economy that most scholars would agree on are:

1. Liberalism (capitalism)

2. Marxism (socialism, communism)

3. economic nationalism (merchantilism, fascism)

I have a high school teacher who insists that 2 and 3 are basically the same thing, and that fascism is a form of socialism. This is based on the narrow-minded view that anything other than capitalism is basically socialism in one form or another. I have tried to explain to her that she was wrong, but she got this Dr. David Noebel with a PhD to agree with her. So I am trying to think of a way to explain how he is wrong too.

Marxism is an overly broad category, in my opinion it can apply to both one and three, despite the protestations of many "Marxists.

EDIT: Actually marxism doesn't belong in economic liberalism, but it is only a subcategory of socialism in general, and socialism in general can be economically liberal.

Facism bases itself on whats best for the state of the Nation

Socialism bases itself on what is best for the people (of the nation's condition)

In action they may be similar because the centralized govermnets are breeding grounds for Authoritarian and Totalitarian leaders to take power rather easily. However when it comes to idealism they are somewhat different.

..this is what I understand and was taught though...I'm open for a correction...anybody?

Nazism (fascism) is national socialism, so it does fall into the scategory of socialism.

Nazism (fascism) is national socialism, so it does fall into the scategory of socialism.

Nazism's ties to socialism and fascism even are tenuous. Whereas it began with socialist ideas, what it became was simply intense nationalism and militarism.

The three theories of political economy that most scholars would agree on are:

1. Liberalism (capitalism)

2. Marxism (socialism, communism)

3. economic nationalism (merchantilism, fascism)

I have a high school teacher who insists that 2 and 3 are basically the same thing, and that fascism is a form of socialism. This is based on the narrow-minded view that anything other than capitalism is basically socialism in one form or another. I have tried to explain to her that she was wrong, but she got this Dr. David Noebel with a PhD to agree with her. So I am trying to think of a way to explain how he is wrong too.

He's wrong for two reasons:

1.) Marxism does not encompass all of socialism
2.) Not all forms of socialism advocate government totalitarianism. http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

Yes, your teacher is wrong on this point and if he or she had a class at a University on Political Economy, he or she would realize this.

The major economic viewpoint is liberalism, the world bank uses it, so does most of the western world and a big chunk of the eastern world.


Then you have the marxist views which tend to take an internationalist view of the economy, it doesn't follow the idea of "right structures, right economy" but rather focuses on interactions between economies at the international level.

Then there is the ultranationalist viewpoint which usually consists of focusing only upon the economy within the given nation.



if you want some decent lecture notes that can explain why your teacher is wrong better than I can, go here http://www.u.arizona.edu/~gcdixon/pol360sp07.htm

That was the class I took last semester within the first 3 weeks of notes there is an explanation of the different views and why they are different.

I have a high school teacher who insists that [Marxism] and [economic nationalism] are basically the same thing, and that fascism is a form of socialism.


Well, there's yer problem.


...but she got this Dr. David Noebel with a PhD to agree with her. So I am trying to think of a way to explain how he is wrong too.

Is is David A. Noebel of Summit Ministries (http://www.summit.org)?

"Dr. David A. Noebel, president of Summit Ministries, has been a college professor, college president and candidate for the U.S. Congress. He holds a B.A. from Hope College in Holland, Michigan, and a M.A. from the University of Tulsa, and was a Ph.D. candidate in philosophy at the University of Wisconsin. He is an author, editor, public speaker, and ordained minister. He is recognized as an expert on worldview analysis and the decline of morality and spirituality in Western Civilization. He travels worldwide lecturing in high schools, universities, and churches. David has been a guest on numerous national radio and television programs. He has authored a number of books, including Understanding the Times, The Marxist Minstrels, Communism, Hypnotism and the Beatles, Rhythm, Riots and Revolution, The Beatles, The Homosexual Revolution, The Legacy of John Lennon, The Slaughter of the Innocent, War, Peace and the Nuclear Freeze, AIDS, he is co-author of Clergy in the Classroom, and The New York Times’ Best Selling book Mind Siege with Tim LaHaye. David, and his wife Alice, live in Manitou Springs, Colorado. They have two children and five grandchildren."
( http://www.summit.org/about/bio/faculty/ )

The Mr. Noebel described has a Ph.D. in "philosophy," not economics. If your teacher claims that such an individual is correct on a matter of economics only because he has a Ph.D., your teacher is committing an Appeal To Authority logical fallacy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority)

I searched two academic databases (Expanded Academic ASAP, Social Science Citation Index) for any peer-reviewed articles published by a "David Noebel." I found exactly 3 hits, apparently having to do with how "secular humanism" is the root of all evil; at any rate, they have nothing to do with economics (beyond "secular humanism == communism!" :eek: nonsense, anyway). This theme seems to be repeated on the Summit Ministries home page. The Noebel described there is an ordained minister, according to the bio quoted above, so the hostility shown toward anything non-religious is not surprising. Neither, then, is the hostility shown toward anything "liberal" or "left-wing." I conclude that the "anything not capitalist must be socialist" viewpoint described has more to do with conservative political vitrol and rhetoric, than any rational analysis of reality. Religious types tend to consider reality an impediment to their prefered method of just making up pretty-sounding whatevers anyway...

Ultimate conclusion: "meh."

The above poster hit the nail on the head.

Your teacher has a poor understanding of economics and is allowing the face value morality of certain regimes to call the systems like.

The opinions of her supporter are based on his philosophies , and his education in world veiws where he has established a position that(I am guessing here) Facism/Socialism are like in how they tend to lead to extreme authoritarian systems of government with very oppressive civil controls.

Bottom line...the discussion has nothing to do with economics beyond she is wrong.

Well, there's yer problem.



Is is David A. Noebel of Summit Ministries (http://www.summit.org)?

"Dr. David A. Noebel, president of Summit Ministries, has been a college professor, college president and candidate for the U.S. Congress. He holds a B.A. from Hope College in Holland, Michigan, and a M.A. from the University of Tulsa, and was a Ph.D. candidate in philosophy at the University of Wisconsin. He is an author, editor, public speaker, and ordained minister. He is recognized as an expert on worldview analysis and the decline of morality and spirituality in Western Civilization. He travels worldwide lecturing in high schools, universities, and churches. David has been a guest on numerous national radio and television programs. He has authored a number of books, including Understanding the Times, The Marxist Minstrels, Communism, Hypnotism and the Beatles, Rhythm, Riots and Revolution, The Beatles, The Homosexual Revolution, The Legacy of John Lennon, The Slaughter of the Innocent, War, Peace and the Nuclear Freeze, AIDS, he is co-author of Clergy in the Classroom, and The New York Times’ Best Selling book Mind Siege with Tim LaHaye. David, and his wife Alice, live in Manitou Springs, Colorado. They have two children and five grandchildren."
( http://www.summit.org/about/bio/faculty/ )

The Mr. Noebel described has a Ph.D. in "philosophy," not economics. If your teacher claims that such an individual is correct on a matter of economics only because he has a Ph.D., your teacher is committing an Appeal To Authority logical fallacy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority)

I searched two academic databases (Expanded Academic ASAP, Social Science Citation Index) for any peer-reviewed articles published by a "David Noebel." I found exactly 3 hits, apparently having to do with how "secular humanism" is the root of all evil; at any rate, they have nothing to do with economics (beyond "secular humanism == communism!" :eek: nonsense, anyway). This theme seems to be repeated on the Summit Ministries home page. The Noebel described there is an ordained minister, according to the bio quoted above, so the hostility shown toward anything non-religious is not surprising. Neither, then, is the hostility shown toward anything "liberal" or "left-wing." I conclude that the "anything not capitalist must be socialist" viewpoint described has more to do with conservative political vitrol and rhetoric, than any rational analysis of reality. Religious types tend to consider reality an impediment to their prefered method of just making up pretty-sounding whatevers anyway...

Ultimate conclusion: "meh."

It is truly beautiful to witness you at work, sir.

It appears that Noebel is to philosophy what Hovind is to science.

"Dr. David A. Noebel, president of Summit Ministries, has been a college professor, college president and candidate for the U.S. Congress. He holds a B.A. from Hope College in Holland, Michigan, and a M.A. from the University of Tulsa, and was a Ph.D. candidate in philosophy at the University of Wisconsin...

The Mr. Noebel described has a Ph.D. in "philosophy," not economics.

actually, it doesn't sound like he actually got the phd.

though a phil degree can be a solid grounding of expertise in political ecomony. not that it appears to be in this case, but certainly can.

It is truly beautiful to witness you at work, sir.

To the great consternation of individuals like Dr. Noebel, the evil institutions of corruption and folly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academia) have gone to great extents teaching individuals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University) how to get the scoop on pretty much anyone or anything (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research). Google helps too. :D

To the great consternation of individuals like Dr. Noebel, the evil institutions of corruption and folly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academia) have gone to great extents teaching individuals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University) how to get the scoop on pretty much anyone or anything (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research). Google helps too. :D

Indeed! ;)

actually, it doesn't sound like he actually got the phd.


Apparently there are separate "staff" bios and "faculty" bios:

"Dr. David Noebel

Dr. Noebel founded Summit in 1962, and is currently the ministry’s president. Dr. Noebel is the editor of Summit’s monthly journal, author, editor, speaker, and curriculum producer. He holds degrees in Philosophy from Hope College and the University of Tulsa. He and his wife Alice have two children, Joy who has four children of her own and Brent who is now with our Lord. In his free time "Doc" is either reading, playing tennis, or tearing up the countryside on his Kawasaki cruiser."
( http://www.summit.org/about/bio/staff/ )

Note how this bio doesn't even mention the University of Wisconsin. Time to find an official list of those who have actually completed the Ph.D. program there.

2 and 3 are just not the same. In what way was mercantalism socialist? I would argue that mercantilism and fascism are not socialist, because they have a tendency to enforce the regimes of corporations or powerful merchants, rather than serve the common interest. Fascism didn't create equality amongst the people, it provided work for everyone, but at terms that benefitted the corporations and the Party.

If one's argument is that Fascist states dictated economic policy to corporations at the behest of their citizens, then one would have to believe that all modern governments are socialist (as all governments dictate the conditions that corporations operate under, and in many cases create government corporations). I'm not buying that.

Well, there's yer problem.



Is is David A. Noebel of Summit Ministries (http://www.summit.org)?

"Dr. David A. Noebel, president of Summit Ministries, has been a college professor, college president and candidate for the U.S. Congress. He holds a B.A. from Hope College in Holland, Michigan, and a M.A. from the University of Tulsa, and was a Ph.D. candidate in philosophy at the University of Wisconsin. He is an author, editor, public speaker, and ordained minister. He is recognized as an expert on worldview analysis and the decline of morality and spirituality in Western Civilization. He travels worldwide lecturing in high schools, universities, and churches. David has been a guest on numerous national radio and television programs. He has authored a number of books, including Understanding the Times, The Marxist Minstrels, Communism, Hypnotism and the Beatles, Rhythm, Riots and Revolution, The Beatles, The Homosexual Revolution, The Legacy of John Lennon, The Slaughter of the Innocent, War, Peace and the Nuclear Freeze, AIDS, he is co-author of Clergy in the Classroom, and The New York Times’ Best Selling book Mind Siege with Tim LaHaye. David, and his wife Alice, live in Manitou Springs, Colorado. They have two children and five grandchildren."
( http://www.summit.org/about/bio/faculty/ )

The Mr. Noebel described has a Ph.D. in "philosophy," not economics. If your teacher claims that such an individual is correct on a matter of economics only because he has a Ph.D., your teacher is committing an Appeal To Authority logical fallacy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority)

I searched two academic databases (Expanded Academic ASAP, Social Science Citation Index) for any peer-reviewed articles published by a "David Noebel." I found exactly 3 hits, apparently having to do with how "secular humanism" is the root of all evil; at any rate, they have nothing to do with economics (beyond "secular humanism == communism!" :eek: nonsense, anyway). This theme seems to be repeated on the Summit Ministries home page. The Noebel described there is an ordained minister, according to the bio quoted above, so the hostility shown toward anything non-religious is not surprising. Neither, then, is the hostility shown toward anything "liberal" or "left-wing." I conclude that the "anything not capitalist must be socialist" viewpoint described has more to do with conservative political vitrol and rhetoric, than any rational analysis of reality. Religious types tend to consider reality an impediment to their prefered method of just making up pretty-sounding whatevers anyway...

Ultimate conclusion: "meh."

Missed that bit. Good show!

From my personal experience, most teachers are teachers because the DMV is not hiring.

Treat everything they say as such.

Facism bases itself on whats best for the state of the Nation

Well it is has elements of state worship through the representative of it. At least that is my take on it


Socialism bases itself on what is best for the people (of the nation's condition)

Well a species based socialism wouldbe trying to get what is best for the people in that species.

He's wrong for two reasons:
2.) Not all forms of socialism advocate government totalitarianism. http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

Even types of state socialism don't want a totalitarian government/state (so there would be seperations of power, enhanced media, active policy to have the populace interested in politics and current events, mass surveilance with the most being used on the people in charge).

Actually, I think that there are some scholars in economics who would agree with your teacher. I know that a few Austrians tend to divide the world into free-market capitalism and not free-market capitalism. Really though, I think it can be said that anarchist socialist ideas are distinct and separable from liberalism and nationalism.