NationStates Jolt Archive


Lebanese Army 'Pounds' "Palestinian" Refugee Camp

Sel Appa
22-05-2007, 03:11
I bet there will be no outcry over this...I hope they kill lots and get rid of those damn squatters. At least it won't be blameable on Israel.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070522/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_violence)

TRIPOLI, Lebanon - Lebanese troops blasted a Palestinian refugee camp with artillery and tank fire again Monday, seeking to destroy a militant group with al-Qaida ties. The barrage smashed buildings and sent plumes of black smoke towering over the crowded camp on the Mediterranean.

The fierce, two-day battle has killed nearly 50 combatants and an unknown number of civilians, raising fears that Lebanon's worst internal violence since the 1975-1990 civil war could spread in a country with an uneasy balancing act among various sects and factions.

Refugees in the Nahr el-Bared camp, on the outskirts of the northern port city of Tripoli, hid in their homes as fighting raged, and Palestinian officials in the camp said nine civilians were killed Monday. Reports from the camp could not be confirmed because officials and reporters could not get inside.

"There are many wounded. We're under siege. There is a shortage of bread, medicine and electricity. There are children under the rubble" of damaged buildings, Sana Abu Faraj, a resident of the camp, told Al-Jazeera television by cell phone.

All day, automatic gunfire and explosions rocked the camp — which is more like a small town, with more than 31,000 people living in two- or three-story white buildings on densely packed narrow streets alongside mosques, schools and businesses. Raging fires sent large clouds of black smoke into the sky, and shells could be seen thudding into some of the taller buildings.

Hundreds of Lebanese troops surrounded Nahr el-Bared, staying outside in accordance with a nearly 40-year-old agreement with the Palestinians. The troops pounded the camp with artillery and tank fire, and militants responded with gunfire and mortar rounds.

The army is seeking to uproot a militant group called
Fatah Islam, which arose in the camp late last year. The group touts itself as a Palestinian liberation movement, but many view it as a nascent branch of al-Qaida-style terrorism with ambitions of carrying out attacks around the region.

Nevertheless, the military assault adds yet another layer of instability to Lebanon's potentially explosive politics. Prime Minister Fuad Saniora's government already faces a domestic political crisis, with the opposition led by Iranian- and Syrian-backed Hezbollah demanding its removal.

Fighting quieted after nightfall amid attempts by other Palestinian factions to broker a cease-fire. The representative of the Palestinian militant group Islamic Jihad, Abu Ahmed Rifai, said Fatah Islam militants pledged to cease firing and withdraw from positions facing Lebanese troops. A senior officer at Lebanese army command would not say a cease-fire was reached but repeated the military's stance that it will not shoot if it does not come under fire.

Raising fears of spreading violence, an explosion went off in a shopping area in a Sunni Muslim sector of Beirut later Monday, wrecking parked cars and injuring four people — a day after a bomb blast in a Christian part of the capital killed a woman. It was not known if the blasts had any connection to the fighting at the refugee camp.

Saniora now risks sparking a backlash among Palestinians in Lebanon's other refugee camps, where armed groups and Islamic extremists have been growing in influence — and, in at least one case, have been sending recruits to fight U.S. troops in
Iraq. If the military moves into Nahr el-Bared in force, it could trigger widespread anger around the Arab world, particularly at a time when
Israel is battling Palestinians in the
Gaza Strip.

The White House said it supports Saniora's efforts to deal with the fighting, and the State Department defended the Lebanese army, saying it was working in a "legitimate manner" against "provocations by violent extremists" operating in the camp.

The leader of Fatah Islam, Palestinian Shaker al-Absi, has been linked to the former head of al-Qaida in Iraq and is accused in the 2002 assassination of a U.S. diplomat in Jordan. He moved into Nahr el-Bared last fall after being expelled from
Syria, where he was in custody.

Since then, he is believed to have recruited about 100 fighters, including militants from Saudi Arabia, Yemen and other Arab countries, and he has said he follows the ideology of al-Qaida leader
Osama bin Laden. Among the militants killed in the fighting Sunday was a man suspected in a plot to bomb trains in Germany last year, according to Lebanese security officials.

Lebanese security officials accuse Syria of backing Fatah Islam as a tool to disrupt the country. "They are not al-Qaida. This is imitation al-Qaida, a 'Made in Syria' one," a national police commander, Maj. Gen. Ashraf Rifi, said, referring to Fatah Islam.

Syria — which hosts a number of Palestinian militant groups, including Hamas — controlled Lebanon until 2005, when its troops were forced to withdraw from the country following the assassination of former Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri. But Syria's opponents in Lebanon accuse it of seeking to re-establish its control through its allies, including Hezbollah.

Syrian Foreign Minister Walid Moallem insisted Damascus had nothing to do with the Fatah Islam and has been seeking Interpol's help in arresting its members.

"Fatah Islam is rejected and does not serve the Palestinian cause. On the contrary, it harms it in every way," he said in Damascus. Syria closed a border crossing near Tripoli, though other crossings into Lebanon remained open.

A spokesman for Fatah Islam, Abu Salim, warned that if the army siege did not stop, the militants would step up attacks by rockets and artillery "and would take the battle outside Tripoli."

"It is a life-or-death battle. Their aim is to wipe out Fatah Islam. We will respond and we know how to respond," he told The Associated Press from the camp.

Other Palestinian factions, including Hamas, have distanced themselves from Fatah Islam, though Hamas was trying to broker a truce.

The assault on Nahr el-Bared, if it continues, raises the prospect of unrest among the more than 400,000 Palestinian refugees living in Lebanon — more than 215,000 of whom live in 12 impoverished refugee camps. Lebanese officials cannot enter the camps under a 1969 agreement that gave the
Palestine Liberation Organization authority over them.

The battle was sparked Sunday when police raided suspected Fatah Islam hideouts in several buildings in Tripoli, searching for men wanted in a bank robbery. A gunbattle erupted and troops were called in. Then militants burst out of the nearby refugee camp, attacking army positions.

Lebanese troops later laid siege to the refugee camp, unleashing fire from tanks, artillery and heavy machine guns. At least 27 soldiers and 20 militants were killed Sunday. Two more soldiers were killed Monday night when a mortar fired from inside camp struck their vehicle.

Lebanese in Tripoli cheered the Lebanese troops Sunday, a reflection of the anger over militants in the camp — and of lingering bitterness toward Palestinians, whom some blame for sparking the civil war.

But on Monday, the tone was more subdued. Many of the streets in Tripoli near the camp were empty, with shops closed and residents remaining inside to avoid getting hit by fire from the camp.

Fighting paused briefly in the afternoon to allow the evacuation of 18 wounded civilians, according to Saleh Badran, an official with the Palestinian Red Crescent Society. But the fierce fighting quickly resumed.

After nightfall, fires could be seen burning inside the camp. A Palestinian medical official said two mosques where civilians had taken refuge were hit by shelling Monday and there were casualties. One report from inside the camp said 14 civilians were killed Sunday, though another put the toll at five. None of the reports could be independently confirmed.

A Lebanese officer at the front line said the bombardment was targeting only buildings known to house militants or sites from which militants fired.

But Lebanese sympathetic to the Palestinians expressed fears over the battle's fallout. Bilal Shaaban, leader of an Islamic fundamentalist group in Tripoli, said people in the camp "are not getting food or water. The wounded are left on the streets."

"Lebanon is facing total collapse," Shaaban said. "Everything is going to collapse on everyone's heads."
Infinite Revolution
22-05-2007, 03:12
refugees are 'squatters' now? what's wrong with you?
Hamilay
22-05-2007, 03:13
Old news. Is it just me, or has anyone noticed Sel Appa is getting more angry lately?
Infinite Revolution
22-05-2007, 03:15
Old news. Is it just me, or has anyone noticed Sel Appa is getting more angry lately?

well if someone can get angry at someone accidentally killing a fish i think there must be something up..
UNITIHU
22-05-2007, 03:17
At least I wanted to mount the thing. Tsk tsk tsk, you need to learn how to think with your penis a little more, Sel Appa.
New Manvir
22-05-2007, 03:29
I bet there will be no outcry over this...I hope they kill lots and get rid of those damn squatters. At least it won't be blameable on Israel.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070522/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_violence)

Wow.....you must really hate "TEH 3B1L MOSELEMS"........

also, artillery shelling a Refugee camp to get some militants/terrorists etc.....:(
Skibereen
22-05-2007, 03:32
He wants blood for a dead fish but fuck a bunch of women and children being bombed ... its good because it cant be blamed on Isreal?

Jack-ass.
Thumbless Pete Crabbe
22-05-2007, 03:32
I bet there will be no outcry over this...I hope they kill lots and get rid of those damn squatters. At least it won't be blameable on Israel.

I agree. People getting killed is cool. :)
Athers Fel
22-05-2007, 03:33
[QUOTE=Sel Appa;12678182]I bet there will be no outcry over this...I hope they kill lots and get rid of those damn squatters. At least it won't be blameable on Israel. - How extremely vile and small minded.
Sane Outcasts
22-05-2007, 03:42
I bet there will be no outcry over this...I hope they kill lots and get rid of those damn squatters. At least it won't be blameable on Israel.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070522/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_violence)

There is much anger in this one...

Though, if you do want to see what outcry this story got when it first broke on NSG, you can check here: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=527538&highlight=Hamas-Fatah
The Lone Alliance
22-05-2007, 04:32
I'm still waiting for Oceandrive to come in and say how evil it is that Lebanon is shelling Palestieans... But then again, since it's not Israel I guess he'll think it's okay.

Lebanese minister pleads for money and weapons (http://home.bellsouth.net/s/editorial.dll?pnum=1&bfromind=7405&eeid=5223081&_sitecat=1181&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=-2&ck=&ch=ne&rg=blsadstrgt)
Hmm... Wow, Lebanon is really in the mood for war.
Soviet Haaregrad
22-05-2007, 04:53
Poor Palestinians, getting fucked from both sides. It's like double penetration minus the fun. :(
Eurgrovia
22-05-2007, 04:56
Is bombing refugee camps in accordance with international law? I seriously doubt it is.
Thumbless Pete Crabbe
22-05-2007, 04:59
Is bombing refugee camps in accordance with international law? I seriously doubt it is.

You have to have a somewhat worthy reputation for it to be damaged by failure to obey international law. It's Lebanon, remember! :p
Eurgrovia
22-05-2007, 05:06
You have to have a somewhat worthy reputation for it to be damaged by failure to obey international law. It's Lebanon, remember! :p
No economic sanctions or anything? We are ruining Iran's economy for trying to obtain nuclear power, but a country bombing refugee's is cool?

I hate the world.
Thumbless Pete Crabbe
22-05-2007, 05:10
No economic sanctions or anything? We are ruining Iran's economy for trying to obtain nuclear power, but a country bombing refugee's is cool?

I hate the world.

Might happen, but I doubt it.

If you hadn't noticed, that particular part of the Middle East can be a bit touchy! :p
UpwardThrust
22-05-2007, 05:27
I bet there will be no outcry over this...I hope they kill lots and get rid of those damn squatters. At least it won't be blameable on Israel.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070522/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_violence)

Thats one of the most disgusting viewpoints I have ever heard
The Black Forrest
22-05-2007, 06:20
Interesting. Fatah again. I wonder if people remember when Arafat tried to get rid of old King Hussein?
Dododecapod
22-05-2007, 08:50
No economic sanctions or anything? We are ruining Iran's economy for trying to obtain nuclear power, but a country bombing refugee's is cool?

I hate the world.

Just remember that:

1) There is no such thing as international law.

2) There is no mechanism to enforce anything save military force.

3) Military force is only going to be used if a nation possessing sufficient of it is also bothered by what is going on.

Iran bothers the US. Iran with nukes bothers everybody. Lebanon bombing a bunch of people who have spent 40 years not integrating into Lebanese society doesn't bother anyone.

Oh, and don't forget that these "Refugee Camps" are actually large towns or small cities more than 40 years old. Concrete and brick, not tents.
Nodinia
22-05-2007, 08:53
I bet there will be no outcry over this...I hope they kill lots and get rid of those damn squatters. At least it won't be blameable on Israel.


Theres already been a thread, people have condemned it, and please spare us your venom against a load of poverty stricken refugees.


Interesting. Fatah again. I wonder if people remember when Arafat tried to get rid of old King Hussein?

Thats the other Fatah, which are a different kettle of Fatahs entirely. It means "conquest" I think.
Call to power
22-05-2007, 09:02
what is it with Vietnam era military strategy lately?

Major: oh look terrorists are in an area, they seem to be aiming for hearts and minds like all military forces should

General: burn that village to the ground! you can tell the people over there like it because they move to towns that we aren't blowing up
Nodinia
22-05-2007, 09:03
Lebanon bombing a bunch of people who have spent 40 years not integrating into Lebanese society doesn't bother anyone.
.
(my bold)

Allow me to correct you.

For most of the period in which they have been there, they have been denied work permits. They are still not allowed to buy and own land or property.Officially they are still barred from holding a number of jobs. They are refused access to any state benefits, including healthcare. Only Shias and christians have been given citizenship.

That looks far more like being refused integration into Lebanese society to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee
Dododecapod
22-05-2007, 09:07
what is it with Vietnam era military strategy lately?

Major: oh look terrorists are in an area, they seem to be aiming for hearts and minds like all military forces should

General: burn that village to the ground! you can tell the people over there like it because they move to towns that we aren't blowing up

Fundamental difference: The Palestinians are not citizens or acknowledged aliens of Lebanon. In fact, Lebanese policy has been to evict them as soon as possible - the only reason they haven't is that the Arab states got together in '69 and put pressure on them not to.

So, if the Palestinians don't like what's happening, the Lebanese will be more than happy to show them the door.
Dododecapod
22-05-2007, 09:09
(my bold)

Allow me to correct you.

For most of the period in which they have been there, they have been denied work permits. They are still not allowed to buy and own land or property.Officially they are still barred from holding a number of jobs. They are refused access to any state benefits, including healthcare. Only Shias and christians have been given citizenship.

That looks far more like being refused integration into Lebanese society to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee

Actually, I didn't say it was their fault. All I said was they were not integrating, not that it was by choice. Given the chance, I'm sure a lot of them would have integrated with the Lebanese.
Call to power
22-05-2007, 09:12
So, if the Palestinians don't like what's happening, the Lebanese will be more than happy to show them the door.

and go where?
Nodinia
22-05-2007, 09:13
Actually, I didn't say it was their fault. All I said was they were not integrating, not that it was by choice. Given the chance, I'm sure a lot of them would have integrated with the Lebanese.


Lebanon bombing a bunch of people who have spent 40 years not integrating into Lebanese society

Not how it reads to me, however I'll take your word for it.
The Potato Factory
22-05-2007, 09:16
Good. Maybe they'll blow the whole region up between them.
Dododecapod
22-05-2007, 09:18
and go where?

That, of course, is the question.

The funny thing (funny, as in sad and poignant) is that the Palestinians are now in a place the Jews were in for a thousand years. A people without a home...
Wilgrove
22-05-2007, 09:20
Sel Appa needs a vacation.
The Potato Factory
22-05-2007, 09:20
Sel Appa needs a vacation.

I like him better this way.
Wilgrove
22-05-2007, 09:22
I like him better this way.

Why?
The Potato Factory
22-05-2007, 09:23
Why?

I suppose he understands that humans are idiots. More humans die, less idiots.
Wilgrove
22-05-2007, 09:24
I suppose he understands that humans are idiots. More humans die, less idiots.

Hmm true, but there are more idiots just living their daily lives without getting killed, and annoying me to no ends at all.
[NS::::]Olmedreca
22-05-2007, 09:57
Lebanon needs to get control over camps. Black september (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan) showed what will happen if extremists get out of control.
Atopiana
22-05-2007, 11:32
The OP is a pitiable human being.

Anyone deliberately shelling civilians is reprehensible, and I oppose it regardless if it's IDF shells or Lebanese shells or even US shells.
RLI Rides Again
22-05-2007, 16:40
Why are there quotations marks around "Palestinians" in the title? Is the OP suggesting that they aren't really Palestinians, and that they're actually Russians or Germans in diguise? :confused:
The blessed Chris
22-05-2007, 16:43
Wow.....you must really hate "TEH 3B1L MOSELEMS"........

also, artillery shelling a Refugee camp to get some militants/terrorists etc.....:(

Can't deny it demonstrates resolve though.
New Stalinberg
22-05-2007, 16:46
Poor Palestinians, getting fucked from both sides. It's like double penetration minus the fun. :(

Yes... those poor innocent Palestinians... They never do wrong...
Scarlet Devil Mansion
22-05-2007, 16:53
Why are there quotations marks around "Palestinians" in the title? Is the OP suggesting that they aren't really Palestinians, and that they're actually Russians or Germans in diguise? :confused:

Sometimes people put quotes around "Palestinian" to imply that they have no claim on the land commonly known as Israel or Palestine. I think Golda Meir used to call them the "so-called Palestinians."

This is about the most inflammatory topic in the world. Together with the factor of INTERNET FIGHT!!!!!!111, I don't think I'm going to comment in these threads, although I have a lot to say about it.
The blessed Chris
22-05-2007, 16:55
Yes... those poor innocent Palestinians... They never do wrong...

Never..... ever.....:p
UpwardThrust
22-05-2007, 16:55
Yes... those poor innocent Palestinians... They never do wrong...

Most of those people that just got smashed, probably not enough to justify the bombing they just took
RLI Rides Again
22-05-2007, 16:56
Sometimes people put quotes around "Palestinian" to imply that they have no claim on the land commonly known as Israel or Palestine. I think Golda Meir used to call them the "so-called Palestinians."

This is about the most inflammatory topic in the world. Together with the factor of INTERNET FIGHT!!!!!!111, I don't think I'm going to comment in these threads, although I have a lot to say about it.

Thanks, I'd never seen it used that way before. :)
Gravlen
22-05-2007, 16:56
The OP is a pitiable human being.

Anyone deliberately shelling civilians is reprehensible, and I oppose it regardless if it's IDF shells or Lebanese shells or even US shells.

I agree.

Sel Appa, you've turned nasty and tasteless. You should be ashamed of yourself.
RLI Rides Again
22-05-2007, 16:57
Never..... ever.....:p

I'd be interested in knowing what the average resident of that camp did to justify heavy artillery bombardment...
The blessed Chris
22-05-2007, 16:58
Most of those people that just got smashed, probably not enough to justify the bombing they just took

YAWN. There are innocent victims in war, life is unfair, innocent people die. Anything new to add?
New Stalinberg
22-05-2007, 16:58
Most of those people that just got smashed, probably not enough to justify the bombing they just took

I never said they did deserve it.
The blessed Chris
22-05-2007, 17:01
I'd be interested in knowing what the average resident of that camp did to justify heavy artillery bombardment...

I imagine the same as the average victim of a Palestinian rocket attack or suicide bombing.
Scarlet Devil Mansion
22-05-2007, 17:02
Let's remember that the situation of the Palestinians in Lebanon is really complex and has a long history. The Lebanese have strong memories of the 75-90 war, and some still blame the Palestinians for bringing Israel into the conflict. The Palestinians have common memories of the war and of the Sabra and Chatila massacre. Not to mention the deep divisions within the Lebanese population itself, and the still strong Syrian and Israeli intervention in local politics. There are no simple answers or assumptions to be made.
UpwardThrust
22-05-2007, 17:05
YAWN. There are innocent victims in war, life is unfair, innocent people die. Anything new to add?

Not particularly, Though it is rather sad that you can yawn away a Refugee camp being bombed.
Libaboy
22-05-2007, 17:07
Dudes if you don't know whats the reason don't start talking shit, that the army attacked them and they are innocent

It al started with a couple of palestinians who robbed a bank in Lebanon, when the army found out they went for them to get the stolen money back.
But what happend is that the Palestinians started shooting at the Lebanese army, and so they started shooting at each other.
Also after this happend these palestinians blow up 2 cars, wich caused a lot of damage.
RLI Rides Again
22-05-2007, 17:12
I imagine the same as the average victim of a Palestinian rocket attack or suicide bombing.

And I consider Palestinian rocket and suicide attacks against civilians to be unjustified as well. Consistency?
Gravlen
22-05-2007, 17:39
Israeli, Palestinian, Lebanese, whatever... It's always the civilians who have to pay the price :(
Sumamba Buwhan
22-05-2007, 18:00
Sick and sad, especially with the US approving of the action. Although they did mention a concern for civilian casualties. Wooooooooo USA USA USA!
LancasterCounty
22-05-2007, 18:03
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=527538
Seeney
22-05-2007, 18:31
The Palestineans is simply a name for a group of Arabs.

When the Arabs lost the '48 war against Israel, the retreating Arab armies gave word to all the arab civilians, saying "leave, for the Jews will persecute you, but don't worry, we'll return to push them into the sea". Israel sent messages saying "we'd like it if you stayed, and we'll treat you fairly".

What happened was a lot of Arab civs left Israel because of this. Left their homes and went into the surrounding Arab countries. The Arab countries didn't want them, so the Arabs became "Palestineans" and were used as political ammo for Arab terrorist groups and anti Israeli governments worldwide to bash Israel.

There have been atrocities on all sides. Israel is not innocent, nor is it the one who is always attacked (although I firmly believe that it is the Arabs history of attacking Israel/Jews since the 1900's that made Israel the way it is today), and neither are the Palestineans always to blame.

The terrorists use the Palestineans and the Israelis to benefit themselves. Now with this current Lebanese army fighting Palestineans, it makes me think of when the King of Jordan expelled the PLO which caused the PLO to flee into Lebanon, sparking Israeli and Syrian interevention in Lebanon in the late 70's early 80's.

The Lebanese army is right in trying to get control over its territories. These Palestineans are in the wrong if they are fighting against the Lebanese army, if this is really about the army searching for some bank robbers.
Cybach
22-05-2007, 19:15
I think that Lebanon should just expel the squatters back to where they came from. Let Israel deal with it's own refuse, or if not, just send them to the occupied territories.
Nodinia
22-05-2007, 19:54
The Palestineans is simply a name for a group of Arabs..

No, its the name of Arabs who are Palestinian.


When the Arabs lost the '48 war against Israel, the retreating Arab armies gave word to all the arab civilians, saying "leave, for the Jews will persecute you, but don't worry, we'll return to push them into the sea". Israel sent messages saying "we'd like it if you stayed, and we'll treat you fairly"..

So when Yitzak Rabin was writing in his diaries in 1948 about having to expell thousands from Haifa under instruction from Ben Gurion (for instance) that was an in-joke....


The terrorists use the Palestineans and the Israelis to benefit themselves. Now with this current Lebanese army fighting Palestineans, it makes me think of when the King of Jordan expelled the PLO which caused the PLO to flee into Lebanon, sparking Israeli and Syrian interevention in Lebanon in the late 70's early 80's. "..

And I'd suggest you think of what put the majority of those palestinians there (the 1967 occupation).
Atopiana
22-05-2007, 20:39
When the Arabs lost the '48 war against Israel, the retreating Arab armies gave word to all the arab civilians, saying "leave, for the Jews will persecute you, but don't worry, we'll return to push them into the sea". Israel sent messages saying "we'd like it if you stayed, and we'll treat you fairly".

So... Deir Yassin never happened? :rolleyes:

I point you to this (www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,653594,00.html), from Benny Morris:

I spent the mid-1980s investigating what led to the creation of the refugee problem, publishing The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949 in 1988. My conclusion, which angered many Israelis and undermined Zionist historiography, was that most of the refugees were a product of Zionist military action and, in smaller measure, of Israeli expulsion orders and Arab local leaders' urgings or orders to move out. Critics of Israel subsequently latched on to those findings that highlighted Israeli responsibility while ignoring the fact that the problem was a direct consequence of the war that the Palestinians - and, in their wake, the surrounding Arab states - had launched. And few noted that, in my concluding remarks, I had explained that the creation of the problem was "almost inevitable", given the Zionist aim of creating a Jewish state in a land largely populated by Arabs and given Arab resistance to the Zionist enterprise. The refugees were the inevitable by-product of an attempt to fit an ungainly square peg into an inhospitable round hole.
Skibereen
22-05-2007, 21:14
I imagine the same as the average victim of a Palestinian rocket attack or suicide bombing.

You say that like the whole of the Palstenian people jump and fire the rockets together.

Peace would be nice, but I pray for equality in accuracy.
Then at least the Palestinians could give as good as they get.
Atopiana
22-05-2007, 21:25
Peace would be nice, but I pray for equality in accuracy.
Then at least the Palestinians could give as good as they get.

What they really need to do is stop randomly attacking Israeli civilians, and get better at attacking the IDF.
Skibereen
22-05-2007, 21:30
What they really need to do is stop randomly attacking Israeli civilians, and get better at attacking the IDF.

They follow the rules of assymetric war, they take the fight to the people.
They are on the short end in terms of numbers, technology, position, supply...the only weapon left is terror.

You think they would rather blow up buses then be able to shoot down Isreali jets and choppers.

Or they choose to take hostages as opposed to sinking Isreali ships.

I am not saying I support them out of hand...I by no means want to see a single Isreali die needlessly if they are out dancing or buying groceries or doing what regular people do.

But lets be honest and compare civilian death tolls...Isreal needs to stop with the precision attacks against civilians before anyone bitches about random attacks by Hezzbollah.
Atopiana
22-05-2007, 21:34
They follow the rules of assymetric war, they take the fight to the people.

Using the rules of asymmetric warfare, you can still attack the enemy's military and win. Ever read Che's Guerilla Warfare, or Mao, for example? Both loonies, but they had the right idea.

I also note that the Afghans defeated the Red Army without killing Russian civilians or too many Afghan civilians...

...and they have blown up at least one Merkava with a Really Big Bastard Bomb mk 1. :p So their lack of tech isn't that much of a problem if they use it properly.
The Black Forrest
23-05-2007, 00:34
Thats the other Fatah, which are a different kettle of Fatahs entirely. It means "conquest" I think.

Doh!


I am guilty of an assumption!

Thanks.....
Atopiana
23-05-2007, 00:49
Yeh, it pays to get your Fatahs right, you never know which Fatah will be in the news for Fatahing from Fatah to Fatah really. :p