NationStates Jolt Archive

I've been working on designing a new form of data storage with a friend, and we've finally managed to perfect the idea. Now we're trying to find out how to pitch it to a company.

I'm not going to post any of the real theory here, but I can tell you that it's fairly extraordinary; a theoretical 476.2 gigabytes on a disk with a diameter of ten centimetres using technology already within our reach; this is discounting an area of the disk which is used to store read verification data, but this obviously can't count towards the storage capacity anyway, as it's unwritable, much as ROM should be. (No encryption algorithms are used, although it would be relatively easy to implement them, thus enabling the medium to store yet more files.)
Using slightly less current technology we'd be able to fit 274.4 gigabytes on a disk of the same size; this is still fairly large, although not as good as it could be. The read speed too would be greatly improved over existing technology.
On top of all of this, it would also be a relatively cheap format bearing in mind the specs; only slightly more expensive than a dual layer Blu-Ray, I'd imagine.
It does have disadvantages, of course; it'd be slow to burn to, rewriting would probably be impossible and it would need a new reader, which we've already designed; however, these are probably made up for by the storage capacity and read speed.

So, we've got the wonder technology sorted out, done a load of calculations and things, and now we've got to pitch it.
The only problem is that we've no idea how.

Having tried to contact both Sony and Maxell (it's similar to an optical disk, so we figured they'd be best) we've failed. Miserably.
Having searched for their research and development contact details and even any type of contact form which didn't require a specific subject under which ours doesn't fall, there doesn't appear to be anywhere to which we can submit our idea; I've already written a rather nice e-mail message, so I'm now disappointed that it appears to be going to waste.

And so, dear people of NSG, I ask you a question: can you help us? As in, can you help me and my friend in finding some place we can submit the idea to?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
And no, I won't give away any specific details about the concept or the theory behind it. Those who are incurably curious can TG me for a few more details than I've given here, but don't expect for anything which might jeapordise our legal position.

I've been working on designing a new form of data storage with a friend, and we've finally managed to perfect the idea. Now we're trying to find out how to pitch it to a company.

I'm not going to post any of the real theory here, but I can tell you that it's fairly extraordinary; a theoretical 476.2 gigabytes on a disk with a diameter of ten centimetres using technology already within our reach; this is discounting an area of the disk which is used to store read verification data, but this obviously can't count towards the storage capacity anyway, as it's unwritable, much as ROM should be. (No encryption algorithms are used, although it would be relatively easy to implement them, thus enabling the medium to store yet more files.)
Using slightly less current technology we'd be able to fit 274.4 gigabytes on a disk of the same size; this is still fairly large, although not as good as it could be. The read speed too would be greatly improved over existing technology.
On top of all of this, it would also be a relatively cheap format bearing in mind the specs; only slightly more expensive than a dual layer Blu-Ray, I'd imagine.
It does have disadvantages, of course; it'd be slow to burn to, rewriting would probably be impossible and it would need a new reader, which we've already designed; however, these are probably made up for by the storage capacity and read speed.

So, we've got the wonder technology sorted out, done a load of calculations and things, and now we've got to pitch it.
The only problem is that we've no idea how.

Having tried to contact both Sony and Maxell (it's similar to an optical disk, so we figured they'd be best) we've failed. Miserably.
Having searched for their research and development contact details and even any type of contact form which didn't require a specific subject under which ours doesn't fall, there doesn't appear to be anywhere to which we can submit our idea; I've already written a rather nice e-mail message, so I'm now disappointed that it appears to be going to waste.

And so, dear people of NSG, I ask you a question: can you help us? As in, can you help me and my friend in finding some place we can submit the idea to?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
And no, I won't give away any specific details about the concept or the theory behind it. Those who are incurably curious can TG me for a few more details than I've given here, but don't expect for anything which might jeapordise our legal position.

Just keep on trying and trying. Don't limit your investors to those who already sell these sort of things, as long as they have the money your product should be able to be produced. Actually, having said that you will need to have some computer company to agree to use your invention in their technology, but this shouldn't be as hard so long as you can show that you have the resources to produce these in large quantities. Another thing you would need to do when pitching to a company is to possibly try and build a prototype of this model proving that it works, they need evidence.

There are professionals who do this sort of thing.

They have the contacts, and they have the pitching abilities.

They cost money. And, you need to find the one who isn't a bullshit artist.

Get a goddam Patent first off.

Have you gotten a patent for it?

Go through a college. I was taping product development courses at a prestigious private college and they have extraordinary access, and the professors are more than happy, down right excited, to see new shit. They'll test it for you and hook you up.

The sad truth is most large companies don't listen to normal people...

Perhaps you could attempt to get in touch with a smaller subsidy of one of these companies. If they like your idea and think its plausible they will contact thier parent company about the matter.

You will need a working prototype, or at least very convincing schematics.

We can give them convincing schematics for their engineers and such people to look over and recommend to them; we can't build a prototype though because we lack any of the resources needed.

We don't currently have a patent, although we have proof of when the idea was first put down on paper and thus that we did it first and I think that, according to UK law, the moment such a thing is done the copyright is yours.

Unfortunately, being fifteen, I don't currently go to college, nor do I intend to (I intend to go to sixth form in my school and then move on to university). I don't know about how one would then go about the college professors route.

Also, in response to Remote Observer, we have no money to hire such people.
We just came up with the idea and set about making it feasible. Beyond that we have no clue nor any money to buy a clue.

Unfortunately, being fifteen

Thats a definate disadvantage, you need to have to be at least 18-20 before they take you seriously.

We can give them convincing schematics for their engineers and such people to look over and recommend to them; we can't build a prototype though because we lack any of the resources needed.

We don't currently have a patent, although we have proof of when the idea was first put down on paper and thus that we did it first and I think that, according to UK law, the moment such a thing is done the copyright is yours.

Unfortunately, being fifteen, I don't currently go to college, nor do I intend to (I intend to go to sixth form in my school and then move on to university). I don't know about how one would then go about the college professors route.

Also, in response to Remote Observer, we have no money to hire such people.
We just came up with the idea and set about making it feasible. Beyond that we have no clue nor any money to buy a clue.
CTOAN is USian, and there college==university. He means, take it to a university professor. Not only will we be able to say, hey this works, but it will probably help you get in (with a scholarship if it does work).

Thats a definate disadvantage, you need to have to be at least 18-20 before they take you seriously.

Damn.
Would it help that we're grammar school students?

CTOAN is USian, and there college==university. He means, take it to a university professor. Not only will we be able to say, hey this works, but it will probably help you get in (with a scholarship if it does work).

Ah. Thank you for explaining.
Now I just need to figure out how to do all of that.

Be careful, and don't sign anything without having a lawyer read it first.

If you're not careful, someone will steal your idea.

Be careful, and don't sign anything without having a lawyer read it first.

If you're not careful, someone will steal your idea.

Fortunately, we're being very careful in the details behind it all. The e-mail contains only slightly more information that that which I've posted here, none of which would enable someone to steal the idea.
Fortunately, I believe I might be able to access a lawyer.

Ah. Thank you for explaining.
Now I just need to figure out how to do all of that.

You just need to research which professors do work in that field and then look at the universities web site for their contact info. After that write them about your idea and if they'd be interested in talking to you about it.

Thats a definate disadvantage, you need to have to be at least 18-20 before they take you seriously.

Before anyone will listen to you you must be 35 and stupid.

I've been working on designing a new form of data storage with a friend, and we've finally managed to perfect the idea. Now we're trying to find out how to pitch it to a company.

I'm not going to post any of the real theory here, but I can tell you that it's fairly extraordinary; a theoretical 476.2 gigabytes on a disk with a diameter of ten centimetres using technology already within our reach; this is discounting an area of the disk which is used to store read verification data, but this obviously can't count towards the storage capacity anyway, as it's unwritable, much as ROM should be. (No encryption algorithms are used, although it would be relatively easy to implement them, thus enabling the medium to store yet more files.)
Using slightly less current technology we'd be able to fit 274.4 gigabytes on a disk of the same size; this is still fairly large, although not as good as it could be. The read speed too would be greatly improved over existing technology.
On top of all of this, it would also be a relatively cheap format bearing in mind the specs; only slightly more expensive than a dual layer Blu-Ray, I'd imagine.
It does have disadvantages, of course; it'd be slow to burn to, rewriting would probably be impossible and it would need a new reader, which we've already designed; however, these are probably made up for by the storage capacity and read speed.

So, we've got the wonder technology sorted out, done a load of calculations and things, and now we've got to pitch it.
The only problem is that we've no idea how.

Having tried to contact both Sony and Maxell (it's similar to an optical disk, so we figured they'd be best) we've failed. Miserably.
Having searched for their research and development contact details and even any type of contact form which didn't require a specific subject under which ours doesn't fall, there doesn't appear to be anywhere to which we can submit our idea; I've already written a rather nice e-mail message, so I'm now disappointed that it appears to be going to waste.

And so, dear people of NSG, I ask you a question: can you help us? As in, can you help me and my friend in finding some place we can submit the idea to?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
And no, I won't give away any specific details about the concept or the theory behind it. Those who are incurably curious can TG me for a few more details than I've given here, but don't expect for anything which might jeapordise our legal position.
Can I not store about 1 GB on a DVD? Convince me that what you offer will make me money. In a business sense, I couldn't care less about new technology, unless it can directly affect my operating costs. Can you save me money, or will it cost less to perform the same operations that I do now? Fewer computers? Fewer operators? Honestly, that's all a business is looking for -- reduced costs or increased sales.

Can I not store about 1 GB on a DVD? Convince me that what you offer will make me money. In a business sense, I couldn't care less about new technology, unless it can directly affect my operating costs. Can you save me money, or will it cost less to perform the same operations that I do now? Fewer computers? Fewer operators? Honestly, that's all a business is looking for -- reduced costs or increased sales.
A DVD is 4.5-5GiB.

His product would actually be a new storage format able to replace both HD DVD and BD as it has ten times the storage capacity as either technology. So basically it is the increased sales route.

A DVD is 4.5-5GiB.

His product would actually be a new storage format able to replace both HD DVD and BD as it has ten times the storage capacity as either technology. So basically it is the increased sales route.

Indeed.
Also, I would imagine that there are companies willing to invest in new technology simply for the sake of new technology; corporations nowadays claim to be innovative, and those that are often reap large rewards; think of Nintendo or, indeed, they who first invented the DVD or even the CD.

It sounds too good to be true. Which, even if it isn't, can be a problem when you try to convince someone.
I think there are a few organizations out there to help inventors. You could try contacting them; they'd also help with the patent and such.

It sounds too good to be true. Which, even if it isn't, can be a problem when you try to convince someone.
I think there are a few organizations out there to help inventors. You could try contacting them; they'd also help with the patent and such.

It does sound too good to be true, doesn't it?
At first, that is.

As I mentioned, the burning times will be long; I do mean long. Possibly three times as long as that for CDs.
Also, it would be nigh-on impossible to make them rewritable, and the technology needed to read and write them would be new, meaning that you've lost a massive user base immediately, just as Blu-Ray and HD-DVD don't have as large a user base as they could had they been compatible with previous hardware.
This is a side-effect of the storage capacity being so high.

I included the negative things, which could also be a disadvantage, in order to stave off the 'too good to be true' feeling.

I'll try and see if I can find some of those organisations.

Indeed.
Also, I would imagine that there are companies willing to invest in new technology simply for the sake of new technology; corporations nowadays claim to be innovative, and those that are often reap large rewards; think of Nintendo or, indeed, they who first invented the DVD or even the CD.

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, although it does come out that way. You are going to appeal to companies that want to store large amounts of data. They already have methods in place to do that. You need to convince them that your way is going to show a marked improvement over what they are currently doing. You will also have to demonstrate that there will be minimal interruptions in the services they now provide, while they are changing over. You will also need to demonstrate that there are no new quirks that will make stored data difficult to retrieve.

Last, the increased read and write times are going to be a disadvantage. When you say that times are increased over CD burning, do you mean that you need x times as long to read/write the same data? That may be the hardest part to sell. If I can burn 3 DVDs in the time it takes you to write 5 GB on a disk, I won't be persuaded. There are ways around that, probably batching file burning for off hours is the best, but the slower rates of retrieval are going to hurt. People want to see things fast.

You've come this far, maybe there is still a way to improve the read time.

Sony's pretty much the worst company to approach, as their entire PS3 message seems to be "Look, it can use blu-ray!".

You also might want to find a way that such discs could be used. The way you wrote it, it seems like you are suggesting it as a replacement for Blu-ray and HD-DVD. Even now, people wonder what possible reason you would need the 50GB of a Blu-ray disc for, whereas you are suggesting a medium that will hold 5-10 times that.

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, although it does come out that way. You are going to appeal to companies that want to store large amounts of data. They already have methods in place to do that. You need to convince them that your way is going to show a marked improvement over what they are currently doing. You will also have to demonstrate that there will be minimal interruptions in the services they now provide, while they are changing over. You will also need to demonstrate that there are no new quirks that will make stored data difficult to retrieve.

Last, the increased read and write times are going to be a disadvantage. When you say that times are increased over CD burning, do you mean that you need x times as long to read/write the same data? That may be the hardest part to sell. If I can burn 3 DVDs in the time it takes you to write 5 GB on a disk, I won't be persuaded. There are ways around that, probably batching file burning for off hours is the best, but the slower rates of retrieval are going to hurt. People want to see things fast.

You've come this far, maybe there is still a way to improve the read time.
Basically, the primary consumer will be the same as the DVD, BlueRay, HD DVD: Hollywood. Even with DVD's (not sure about BlueRay or HD DVD), the movie is compressed with a lossy codec in order to get it to fit. Higher capacity means, higher quality movie which means, higher sales. This also pushes up sales for High definition TVs, and as such, the often invest in these technologies too. Porn companies and video game companies like these too, but they have a much lesser affect on the market than Hollywood. IT people like UpwardThrust would probably find these usefull as it allows them to create images of much larger hard drives, for use in backups. The usefulness of these technologies centers almost solely as a means to sell a product stored on the disk. Companies would rarely choose to use these internally as a good network is significantly cost effective and many times faster.

Also, he only said the write speeds would be slower. Read speeds typically go up as capacity increases. The disk can only spin so fast without deforming or exploding. So the only other way is to have more data per unit of disc, which is the same way you increase capacity.

Indeed.
Not only is the read speed faster due to the higher capacity and thus more data per area being read, but there are other features which, as well as increasing the data storage, also have the nice side effect of increasing the read speed quite massively.

The write time will be slower than that of CDs; I'm hazarding a guess at maybe it will take three minutes for every one minute it would take on a CD.

We are hoping that the high capacity will be attractive enough to overcome that disadvantage, though.

Whilst this could be used to make large backups, it is also suitable for general purpose use; I have a laptop with a 33 gigabyte hard drive; I have an EHD which can hold 297 gigabytes of data. It currently holds 80, of which in the thousands of files are ones that I need. Unfortunately, they are too large to burn to CD or DVD, but it gets annoying having to lug around my EHD.
A disk such as that which we've designed would be a brilliant replacement.

why is this product worth the investment?

Blu-ray prototypes have already been unveiled with a capacity of 100Gb and some say they developed a working model capable of 200GB but, to the best of my knowledge, it has yet to be trotted out so we can have a look.

There was an announcement at CES that Blu-ray to will be up to 250GB soon. These are proven technologies and not just 'within reach'.

You have an engineering idea which could theoretically be a little over twice the current capacity, but right now is at the current capacity, and yet it still needs significant development just to get a prototype. I'm sorry to tell you that it has negligible market potential. I am not telling you this to be an ass, just cold hard reality - I wish it would be otherwise. I truly do.

What company would want to invest millions into a product to be a late entry in the Blu-ray/HD-DVD war?

Unless you can promise production costs (for both the discs and readers) would be a fraction of Blu-ray; the media itself will be so hard wearing you could take steel wool to it, throw it around like a frisbee, then store it in a damp basement for a couple decades and still be readable; you are going to have to find a reason why this is worth risking millions of dollars.

It sounds like you have an interesting theory that might get you a spot into a great engineering course at a good university, but not a new product for market.

why is this product worth the investment?

Blu-ray prototypes have already been unveiled with a capacity of 100Gb and some say they developed a working model capable of 200GB but, to the best of my knowledge, it has yet to be trotted out so we can have a look.

There was an announcement at CES that Blu-ray to will be up to 250GB soon. These are proven technologies and not just 'within reach'.

You have an engineering idea which could theoretically be a little over twice the current capacity, but right now is at the current capacity, and yet it still needs significant development just to get a prototype. I'm sorry to tell you that it has negligible market potential. I am not telling you this to be an ass, just cold hard reality - I wish it would be otherwise. I truly do.

What company would want to invest millions into a product to be a late entry in the Blu-ray/HD-DVD war?

Unless you can promise production costs (for both the discs and readers) would be a fraction of Blu-ray; the media itself will be so hard wearing you could take steel wool to it, throw it around like a frisbee, then store it in a damp basement for a couple decades and still be readable; you are going to have to find a reason why this is worth risking millions of dollars.

It sounds like you have an interesting theory that might get you a spot into a great engineering course at a good university, but not a new product for market.

I have little idea about the cost; I can't imagine it'll be much higher than current Blu-Ray technology, though.

And as a matter of fact, it would be hard-wearing. Incredibly hard-wearing.
You wouldn't be able to snap it if you tried; you could use it as a frisbee if you wanted, but it wouldn't fly very well.
As for a damp basement: I don't see why not. I'm almost certain it could survive.

We don't currently have a patent, although we have proof of when the idea was first put down on paper and thus that we did it first and I think that, according to UK law, the moment such a thing is done the copyright is yours.

Get a bloody patent! It's not that difficult and even if you have all your proof and everything, who can pay better lawyers? You or Maxtor? Who can stand a five-year trial? You or Maxtor?

I don't want to go back to my whole quarter of filming product development courses as some sort of expert opinion, but from what I saw there doubling the theoretical cap on storage is not something companies are going to turn their noses up at. They seem to pour millions to go down far shakier roads and have a 'innovate or die' mentality (granted this college is in Silicon Valley, but I think that makes it only more relevant). If the technology works, if what you've come up with is solid, I don't think you'll have a hard a time getting interest once in the door as the neigh sayers seem to think.

EDIT: And never underestimate the power of porn.

Get a bloody patent! It's not that difficult and even if you have all your proof and everything, who can pay better lawyers? You or Maxtor? Who can stand a five-year trial? You or Maxtor?

I think someone's trying to suggest that a patent would be a good idea...

I don't want to go back to my whole quarter of filming product development courses as some sort of expert opinion, but from what I saw there doubling the theoretical cap on storage is not something companies are going to turn their noses up at. They seem to pour millions to go down far shakier roads and have a 'innovate or die' mentality (granted this college is in Silicon Valley, but I think that makes it only more relevant). If the technology works, if what you've come up with is solid, I don't think you'll have a hard a time getting interest once in the door as the neigh sayers seem to think.

EDIT: And never underestimate the power of porn.

Indeed. I just hope that it would work well in practice. It's innovative but untested.
We're currently trying to see what we can do about a prototype.

Oh, and news just in: after a day of lows in which we found several mistakes, we then sorted those out and came up with another idea which will both allow for much faster writing times indeed and even allow for yet more storage capacity; at the very highest, albeit the most difficult, a theoretical lower limit of about 974 traditional gigabytes on a disk 12cm in diameter. Easier would be one fitting about 487 gigabytes on.

I think someone's trying to suggest that a patent would be a good idea...

There are two ways that patent ownership is decided. First to file is the way that we do it in the States, but I believe Great Britain uses the first inventor method. Either way, it's worth the trouble to file. I've seen a number of self-help books on filing with the U.S. patent office, there may well be as many written for your system.

There are two ways that patent ownership is decided. First to file is the way that we do it in the States, but I believe Great Britain uses the first inventor method. Either way, it's worth the trouble to file. I've seen a number of self-help books on filing with the U.S. patent office, there may well be as many written for your system.

I'm currently struggling with the UK patent system; I've managed to get an application form, finally, but before we can do anything we're going to have to raise around £200.
I think that perhaps a game sale is in order.

I'm currently struggling with the UK patent system; I've managed to get an application form, finally, but before we can do anything we're going to have to raise around £200.
I think that perhaps a game sale is in order.
I'd do a lot of odd jobs to raise that application fee, if I were in your position.

Again, Best wishes on your endeavor.

I'd do a lot of odd jobs to raise that application fee, if I were in your position.

Again, Best wishes on your endeavor.

Thank you.

Thank you all, in fact. All I can say is that I'm honoured that so many tried to help my friend and myself, and I am also happy though slightly disbelieving that no-one accused us of incompetence, unnecessary optimism or even deliberate lying or fudging of the theoretical results.
Hopefully we'll be able to patent it and then sell it. It could cause a minor revolution, or so we hope. :)

You actually need to keep any details very quiet until you get a patent. There are time limits on getting a patent so if the 'new and innovative' bit gets a bit worn, you might be out of luck.

Without a patent, you might gain the satisfaction of knowing you came up with something interesting that became a new standard of data storage... but thats about it. The first person you showed it to ran off and mass produced it and you didnt get a penny.

Additionally - you do need to at least have submitted a patent application before showing it to others in addition to asking them to sign a non-disclosure agreement. If you show it to someone before you apply, they can then take the idea and submit an application themselves (even if incomplete and will be rejected) they can then withdraw it but thereafter nobody can get a patent on that idea. A non-disclosure is very important.

To quote the others....get a patent.

Once you have a patent companies will be much more inclined to listen to you. Also it means that you have something to sell.

You might want to talk to a intellectual property rights lawyer as well.

We've finally got all the documentation and things; we just need to fill in the forms now!
Although before we do that, we're considering requesting a grant from the Department of Trade for further research to make it more efficient and also for the development of a prototype; unfortunately, to apply for a grant, one must apparently be a business, so there's the hassle of founding a business first...